Це відео не доступне.
Перепрошуємо.
Battery 101 (part 2) | Fitting Super B Lithium Batteries to a sailboat
Вставка
- Опубліковано 26 кві 2022
- In this second part of our battery technical special we go through the fitting of 6 Super B Nomada batteries, changing the wiring, setting up the chargers and testing the system. Fitting lithium is not a straight swap for your lead-acid batteries.
VIDEO CONTENTS (CHAPTERS)
0.00 Start
0.34 Super B Nomada Battery
2.45 Battery set up
4.05 Balancing the batteries before fitting
6.15 Fitting
6.31 Remote set up with Super B
7.20 Charger set-up (Alternator)
10.07 Charger set-up (Solar)
11.25 Temperature sender
12.12 Real life testing
![WATCH THIS before installing lithium batteries on your sailboat ⚡ [RYAN'S TECH CORNER]](/img/n.gif)
Another great technical video, great to watch and learn
really inspired by the new battery sizes and shapes, what a step forward.
Great video with lots of real life input. Thanks so much.
Cell balance is important, but it is not needed for every charge. I am a retired Pilot and now we congregate at our airstrip flying model planes with Lithiums and this community have long experience with this kind of batteries. When the season is over we store batteries at 80%. When we program the chargers to store, we get 80%. Lithiums can be drained way below the old lead stuff and don't suffer from that. That means u have more power from 100Ah Lithium than from 100Ah Lead - you got more room, so you have no need to charge to 100% on your beautiful Lithiums every time for them to last long. Had Lithiums on my sailboat boat for two years now and i stop charging at 85%, but i drain down to 15%. Energy budget on a boat with new batteries is empiric. Wish u two a happy journey and long live the Lithiums...
I am trying to top balance once a fortnight, I think the fact there is often poor wind in the Med & we have a passage where we have to motor will mean that’s easy done. Has been so far anyway.
Looks good! looking forward to seeing how it works out - although never heard of anyone being disapinted with their switch to Lithium!
Really good in depth info. Thank You 👍
Good stuff! In the UK pıckıng up some bıts and bobs for our next project. Sail Safe Guys, Ant & Cid.
Yes I saw, seems to be mainly Guinness!
Graphine (pardon my spelling ) is on the way! CHEERSfrom Westcoast Canada!
Yea yay !!!part 2 !!!
look at that bling of a belt for that alternator. How hot does your engine room get. remember lithium batteries like it around 25 Celsius. the hotter they get the less life cycles you will get.
Yes I'm a fan of Nutlink belts. I am keeping an eye on engine room temp. I have a thermometer in there and a good fan ventilation system to control it. But to be honest I'm not too worried as the Nomada batteries we have are good to be charged at higher temps, they state 32C (131F) which is pretty hot!
Also as you grow your battery banks plan for 48v banks. the reason is it delivers massive amounts of amps using smaller wires. so you can get rid of all gas stoves etc. I have 4 banks at 48v 280ah each bank with JK BMS. I do not suggest doing batteries in parallel. example if doing 12 volt I would hook each battery to a busbar with exact same cable lengths so the farthest battery will decide your lengths. This is a newer technology that many do not completely understand yet. I do like you are testing and seeing how these new technologies work for you.
I'm not planning on going fully electric yet, but at technology progresses and we have a better idea of out needs it may be possible, and as you rightly say that would necessitate us ramping up the voltage of our house bank.
also LIFEP04 cells have a flat curve. So when setting up your BMS you want it to stop charging when it leaves the flat curve and increases but before the max. usually around 3.45 volts per cell(13.8 total volts). Do not float charge them(that is a AGM lead acid charging technique) I have seen tests where float charging has caused damage to cells and lowered the AH rating by 30%and if you continue if can destroy them. Instead have your BMS balance all cells to around .005 MV once the cells hit 3.45V each cell. On the discharge side the lowest I would go for each cell is 3.15 volts(12.6 total volts. that should get you 85-95% of your total amp hours without over stressing your cells. I am saying this from hundreds and hundreds of research from users and company data who have tested them.
Yes all good advice. I have the BiB box set to cut off at 20% charge so we will never use more than 80% and we have the float level set to 13.8v. SuperB tell me there is actually no problem floating their batteries if all the charge controllers are set to 13.8. But knowing the problems of accurately measuring charge at the battery while controlling charging when you have constant draw and voltage loss in the lines i will not be leaving the system on float ever. Fortunately as a live aboard that's not what happens, it's only a problem really for weekend sailors. Our challenge will be to balance the draw against charging so that we do get the occasional (once a week / fortnight) full charge to top balance the cells.
@@svfairisle stopping charge at 3.45V doesn't leave a lot of headroom for balancing (0.05V of headroom, basically).
Having built a 1,200Ah LifPo4 bank with cells and using the Balmar MC614 regulator, I think your comments about the MC614 were too kind as it is so frustrating and stressful to setup. Balmar have now brought out a MC618 with an SG230 Kit which uses a bluetooth phone App. I have e-mailed Balmar earlier today to inquire can this SG230 kit be retro fitted to the MC614. Victron gear is just so good, it is so easy to setup and it works!.
Interested to know if it could be retrofitted...
Lekker man lekker 🇿🇦
💯
Hello Steve, i have a question for your bow truster du you power from lithium batteries or do you agm batteries, if so how do you seperate the batteries from each other with two altornators, regards
Hi Richard, no our bow thruster and windlass are hydraulic. The only thing that disturbs the lithium is the AGM starter battery so I do need to separate the charging profiles for that. I explain how I did it in the two videos I did on Lithium
What does your insurer say about having a Li bank?
Nothing, they don't stipulate anything on batteries (GJW insurance)
How do you propose to one should store a LI bank for a long winter layup on the south coast?
Well against common thinking the tech guys at SuperB say you can float their batteries no problem. But you’re right most manufacturers say not to. So if you need a long lay up the good news is the self discharge is very slow. So visiting the boat once or twice during the winter and topping up the battery would be enough if you wanted to leave the battery off charge, I think that’s what I would do.
@@svfairisle thanks. Very kind advice.
Looking at your schematic on the web site, you seem to have a lot of potential voltage drop, why 2 shunts (800mV at 200A)?, BIB, isolator switch and additional fuses (two in series to distribution board). I'm not saying this is wrong but would be interested in how this works out in practice and with emergency starting from the house bank?
yes there are always sites of potential voltage drop. The shunts are pretty negligible though. There were two from the original build, one for the monitoring system are one for the shore charger. The BiB box is specified by Superb for any installation using more than 4 Nomada batteries, it's a secondary safety system in addition to the individual BMS's on the Nomada batteries. It has negligible loss though as it is a high quality pre-charged relay. The fusing I explain in the video's, you need to fuse for the cabling so their will be a main fuse rated for the cables leaving the batteries and secondary fuses for all major cabling leading off to other devices, like the dist board. (there will be further fusing after this as well for individual devices rated to the wires that feed them) The emergency starting from the house bank has been tested and works well.
@@svfairisle thanks. Does that mean you can dispense with at least one of the shunts as you now have the Victron between the shore power charger and the Super B batteries ? I’m guessing shore power is only a backup option with the 30A charger.
I will be really interested in how you get on in the longer term.
I really like your UA-cam channel, well researched and well produced.
@@paulmear8353 yes the shore power shunt is now not needed and can be removed. Glad you like the films :)
@@svfairisle is the 600mV shunt correctly labelled? At 200A it would be dissipating 120W and 600mV is a large proportion (100%?) of the allowable voltage drop on the whole circuit.
Lithiums like it better (as you may know), not being charged to full all the time - maybe to 85% only.
Yes but the tech guys at Super B say their batteries are happy even to be floated so it’s not a concern. I doubt wether they will spend too much time up near 100% with us as live aboards anyway! But it is necessary with all lithium batteries to get them to 100% every week or two so they can top balance.
why fuses and not breakers or other?
I think beakers are considered a risk as it’s possible for the very high short circuit currents to weld them shut. Same goes for some fuses, including the Mega fuse with lithium. However having the external BiB box means that Super B say the Mega fuse is okay so maybe breakers would be too with this set up. I think in the event of a short circuit the bib box would cut everything off before the fuse blew in any case.
A question. Why couldn’t you use a tesla power wall
Well you could I suppose but it’s really not made for the job. It would be a very awkward shape to fit on a boat for a start, what is it 4foot high! I’m not sure what battery chemistry it is either, as I said in the video you really want to stick to LiFePO4 on a boat as it’s as safe as lead acid, you can’t say that for other lithium chemistries. Also it’s geared up for AC outputs, not sure it it even has a DC o/p? If it does I would imagine it’s native voltage is 48v so you would also need a DC-DC converter to run the boats systems which is very wasteful on energy. Best to stick to products designed for the job I think.
@@svfairisle They are car chemistry (NiCo) -s o entirely and utterly wrong for a boat. Optimised for high draw, high charge, and completely inflammable, so no ...
Then there's the fact the PW outputs 240V AC, so you would be stepping up to charge, and down to use. Terribly lossy. Very 'ground' sensitive too which could be a nightmare in a marina, and requires Internet access to manage ...
Isnt the altinator more to keep them healthy , as they are designed to take a big charge , a few hours a day won't give this , ? You can run them down ,great but always harder to put it back in, 12 hours of med sun is great , in summer ,
You have to work out a balance between your average usage and likely charging. Obviously this is dependent on many things. I think for us our 1000w of solar probably won’t keep pace in the Med ( perhaps it will mid summer) but by the time we hit the tropics it probably will. The thing about the mad thought is you often have to motor and with the ability to get over 100Amps (1200w) that’s enough that on the occasion we have to do a passage mainly by motor (which happens at least once a fortnight) I can top everything up. Early days of real life testing now, only left Çeşme for the final time 5 days ago, we seem on track. Never below 75% so far. Today was the first day we had to motor for about 3 hours topped everything up, even ran the water maker all morning and charged the outboard battery.
@@svfairisle that helps , plus gives the batteries a mega boost they are designed to take ,
@@davidwarnes5158 Yes they are designed to take it but in fact it's lead acid batteries that really need a regular high amp charge to try and beat off sulfation lithium doesn't need it in the same way.
@@svfairisle lead acid don't take a high voltage input, not like your new altinnator , they don't charge in 30 min like a car , they cannot take it . Where lithium are designed to do this , the same as they get weaker with a lower charge solar only , a few weeks solar only 5hey get a voltage reading , but are not bulk loaded , this has been proven .
@@davidwarnes5158 have a read of the information on the Power page of our website it may make things clearer for you. At the moment you’re confusing voltage with amperage and have the wrong idea about the C rating of lead acid and lithium batteries. The difference between the two chemistry’s regarding changing is how the internal resistance of the battery affects its ability to charge. LA will be triggered by the voltage (because of high internal resistance) to go from bulk to absorption at about 80% SOC Lithium will not do this that’s where the difference comes from.
This video should have been preceded by a Health and Safety Warning and the need to wear a crash helmet, lay on the bed and have a defibrillator handy. It took 20 minutes to find someone not scared to publish the price on these batteries. I thought Victron lithium was expensive until I found the price of these at 1,862 Euros each ........... makes the Victron 100Ahr look like a bargain!
I agree with your comments. These SuperB batteries are super B-loody expensive... The batteries alone would be circa Euro 10,800. In Australia, a decent quality 600ah battery bank by Amptron would cost about AUD$5000 (Euro 3370). I was wondering if Fair Isle has been sponsored.... not that I would blame them!
Balmar claims of a smart regulator are nonsense. The big problem is that this regulators have no way to understand how much of the alternator’s output is charging the battery and how much is supplying loads-they truly operate blind. What you should install is a truly smart alternator regulator. Every external regulator vendor out there is claiming their product is lithium friendly, but most just have a charge profile that might be OK for some lithium batteries. Instead, we want to fit a regulator that comes with many different programs tweaked specifically for each manufacturer’s lithium batteries, and, to be more future proof, one that can listen to a BMS via CANbus, even if that does not work in your present installation.
As far as I know, at present, the WS500 from Wakespeed is the only one that is capable of doing this.
Yes I think the Wakespeed is definitely the one to go for now, especially if you're going for a very sophisticated system where the CAN bus can control it. I say in the video and on the website that all smart regulators are pretty dumb for the reasons you say, but actually balmar have about as good a system as you can get to be able to program for various battery chemistries. Real life testing is what counts I think and I'm pretty confident the system I have will do well, but we will see!
@@svfairisle I have been thinking about and researching lithium batteries a lot over the last three months, so your Vlog is very timely. The first issue; of the things that has jumped out at me is the way the load dump problem is being downplayed by both cruisers and industry players. If any of the following limits are violated:
Over temperature
Under temperature
Charge over-current
Charge over-voltage
Too low state of charge
Too high state of charge
One or more cells in the battery too far out of voltage balance with the others
The battery management system (BMS) will disconnect the battery; in other words, a load dump. The very words “load dump” are misleading since many BMSs, particularly cheaper ones, will disconnect both the loads and charging sources, and smarter ones will more frequently disconnect the charging sources than the loads, so “charge and/or load disconnect” would be more meaningful wording. The second issue, that pretty much universally gets ignored or glossed over, is how dangerous load dumps are, right up to jeopardizing the lives of the crew on the boat. Murphy's Law will always dictate that this will happen at the most inopportune time.
@@bojangles8837 I’m not really sure what you’re getting at. As far as I can tell the only load dump that has the potential to cause problems is a sudden disconnection of the battery from an energised alternator. I’ve explained how that is dealt with. Any other cut off does not have the ability to cause equipment breaking spikes or dump loads as far as I can see. I can (and have) simulate a BiB box (BMS) cut off by simply throwing the isolation switch. Nothing bad happens. What do you think the problem is?
@@svfairisle You are definitely a step ahead and applaud your thoughtfulness in your design with an external BMS. I am speaking more to the drop in Lithium batteries with an internal BMS. Let us look at a few things we can to to help prevent a Lithium load dump.
#1 Never “Drop In”
If you have not already bought “drop in” lithium batteries, don’t. The problem with “drop in” batteries is that, since the BMS is inside the battery, it has no way to communicate its intentions before load dumping.
#2 Action Must Be Automatic
Typically, the time between BMS warnings and load dump is short. For example, Al, chief designer at Wakespeed, is a happy camper if the BMS gives his software two seconds to do the right thing. So, clearly, we want to build a system around a smart BMS and charging gear that it can automatically shut down safely and quickly, before the lights go out.
#3 External BMS
At least at the moment, and probably in the future, the BMS needs to be external to do this right. The other benefits of an external BMS are that it is generally more robust, smarter, and can be replaced if it fails, without replacing the whole battery.
#4 Two Busses
An external BMS that can send a signal, typically to a relay (solenoid, contactor), is not going to help us much if said relay disconnects the battery from the loads, even when it doesn’t need to. So it’s a fundamentally good practice when designing a lithium battery system to separate the charge and load busses with a BMS-controlled relay on each one. That way, in an overcharge scenario (likely more common than undercharge), the BMS can just disconnect all the charging sources but leave those vital loads supplied-fewer lights-out-related disasters.
#5 Smart BMS
Of course, this means we need a BMS that’s smart enough to decide whether or not it needs to disconnect everything, or just the charging sources. Many (most?) are not that smart, so shop wisely.
#6 Fit a Real Smart Regulator
Moving on from a smart BMS, we should also install a really smart alternator regulator.
#7 Amp Counter Backup
The above recommendations only help us if the problem that caused the BMS to throw a wobbler only required disconnection of the charging sources. But what if something goes wrong, or we just don’t notice that the battery is dropping toward that state of charge (typically 20% I like what you have done here) where the BMS will disconnect the load buss? The problem here is that one of the great advantages of lithium over lead, the ability to maintain more constant voltage over the entire usable range of charge state, becomes a liability. With lead acid batteries we can simply set a low-voltage alarm that will warn us that our bank is getting low, way before any vital gear shuts down.
# 8 Buy From a Cruiser
The above tips provide us with a broad-brush check list of capabilities to look for when shopping for lithium batteries and the supporting gear. I strongly endorse Ocean Planet Energy as a source. Bruce is a two-time singlehanded circumnavigator, and Nigel Calder has just joined him as a partner.
@@svfairisle A common reassurance we get when we ask about load dumps is that they are no problem since all we need to do is install an alternator surge suppressor and then load dumps won’t matter since no damage will be done. First off, the idea that one of these little gadgets will always and repeatedly protect the alternator and the boat’s electronics is suspect at best.