Does it really make such a big difference whether the speakers are wired directly to the amplifier or via a terminal like @Iam Mad did with the Le Petit?
It depends highly on the rest of the system. If the rest is full with connectors, lesser grade wires, lower quality solder, then it might be even disappointing not to use a binding post, as most commercial amps expect that extra resistance and smearing that to be in the signal path, and you might start hearing the high frequency issues of the amplifier even more. However, when the system is free from such issues, it is a massive gain. As big as the difference between a poor speaker cable and a good speaker cable. The difference will come mainly in the form of the system being able to reproduce extremely low level signals, that leads to emotional impact appearing & becoming much more powerful. In summary, if the amp / system can resolve extremely low level details, then it's vital to have as direct path between amp and driver as possible. If it has trouble with low levels, then opening a direct path for the signal level will just allow all the noise to come through that resides in that region, and will make sound likely feel as "unstable", edgy, not settled.
Just a passing comment Janos I got a chance to here Diana Krall live in 1992 and 1993 at a local Italian restaurant for free and while I did not get the lap dance that Thomas refers to I sat no more than 10 feet away from her piano. With accompanying bass and drums minimally microphoned and and sitting in the near field it sounded way better than any stereo I have ever heard by far no matter who built it. A friend of a friend recorded the event on a Sony pro walkman cassette recorder and was confronted by Diana and a big body guard after the show in the parking lot.Diana told my friend that she had just signed up with Sony and did not want any bootleg recordings of her out there. When she found out that the recording was just analog and not digital she changed her mind and let him keep the cassette. Regards Lou
Hi Lou, just ran across this older video of mine, and noticed that my response is missing from your comment... indeed, I myself am not safe from the ravages of YT random censorship.
I've always wondered about single driver speakers and this is the best balanced view on single driver speakers that I've seen/read and from someone who clearly likes them. I will subscribe and would have happily watched a longer video!
Cheers, getting humid here too! :) Normally humidity is about 60% here, but September / October it gets a lot more humid. Can feel it building up this week... ; )
Grew up in the seventies and eighties during the height of Radio Shack. My buddies and I built some great sounding cabinets with 51/4 full range speakers. Powered them with a Realistic 10w reaciever. I enjoyed this set up for twelve years. Single drivers are very capable. So much fun
Excellent presentation of the potential that single drive speakers have inherent and will exemplify individual components and their effect positive or negative to your system a live testing node. Interesting to say the least
Thank you James! My observation is that no component lives in a vacuum, and we cannot talk about them without knowing how to match them optimally.. a lot of advice on that in the past & future videos .. ;
I had the chance to demo a pair of Cube Audio Nenuphar Mini a few weeks ago and I have to say, they sounded really, really impressive. Very likely that I will buy a pair sometime in the future. I have never considered my own Zingali horn speakers to sound "nasal" or anything like that, but when hearing the Nenuphar Mini, listening to music I'm very familiar with, the first thing I was struck by how natural and neutral they sounded with my Leben CS600 amplifier. I also love the fact that the Cube Audio speakers don't use a network. Just straight wires from the connectors on the back to the driver, no cheap components "tainting" the sound.
Thank you for this explanation. Best description yet. I am using open baffle with a concentric for 100 up, and an 18" for low range. But nothing below 40hz. So not perfect.
For OB very had to get anything below 40Hz... yet, 40+Hz is much better than anything with box cabinets. It's like having two courses of fine food (upper and midbass), versus having three mediocre courses (upper, mid and low bass) with traditional cabinets. Neither is perfect, just a choice whether we go for a narrower selection of delights, or a full range of meh. ; ).
I remember owning a pair of speakers that was a closed box with a single 8 inch full range driver, it didn't do chest pounding bass but I remember vocals were surprisingly realistic. It was very lackluster in every other regard though, and listening to rock music I definitely missed deep bass and clashing cymbal hits.
7:45 Piano is amazing on single driver speakers. I got single driver speakers and some conventonal 2-ways (B&W 706). And compared to my FR driver speakers the 706s completely fail on piano!
Flat Frequencies can be projected with an adjustment from an eq. Imaging and tone is my main focus. It seems like these speakers can do all of this if set up correctly. I would imagine these speakers will excell with imaging. Ironically I think these would sound more complete with a small sub. From my past experience( and limited knowledge about these speakers) I would let the single driver handle anything over 150 hz and use small step offs on the eq for a smoother transition. I would also like to try an amp from Decware or even the newer Willsenton r300 with it For a smaller space or well acoustically treated room, this seems like a special experience
Many single driver speakers start rolling off below 150Hz or so, so that can be a valid compromise to turn them back into 2 way with a sub. Another option is to dig deeper into the single driver field and find the ones that work in the bass region as well. Of note, it all hinges on tastes. When one needs midbass to dominate the sound, then sub is a must. Another case where you need a sub to supplement is when one listens excessively loud. If you look for a balanced sound, a sub will always be usually quite inferior choice to a very good single driver. As Frank said, things need to be experienced, and one of these things is good single driver bass. The bass quality, coherence and its texture can be extraordinary because there's no gimmicking with crossovers and different sources...
Mahalo bro. As I might have previously said I’m now using Goodmans Full Range 301’s from the 1950’s and their stated range in 30hz-16khz. What I don’t get is that the lowest note possible for a musical instrument is 40.5hz low E dble Bass so why is everyone i mean all these HiFi experts so concerned about inserting Sub bass units into their systems whilst professing to want to hear “natural” music. Of course the range quoted on these drivers is subject to the cabinet too. Mine are in boxes that were recommended by Goodmans. In fact most likely made by them. So I’m guessing they deliver as close to the specified freq. as is possible and I gotta say playing everything from a live jazz quartet thru electronic to grunge I’m happy with the “real-ness” these are providing. Really enjoy these reaction videos by the way.👍
Hi Janos, I have firsthand experience with owning Lii Song's folded horn speakers. They are called the Fieke and are designed by Leon Huijgen of PureAudioProject. They are the speakers that look like a hungry Minion ate a gloss black piano. The speakers sound exceptional with acoustic music, especially with string instruments and piano. The lower octaves breathe easily and develop in an expressive way when compared to bass reflex speakers. However, something I notice more and more is a partial delay in the lower octaves. While the bass is full and resonates in a natural way, it also takes just a tiny bit longer to come into its own when compared to the higher frequencies. Is this effect inherent in folded horns? Do Voigt pipes and folded pipes have huge differences compared to this type of folded horn? Thank you for your insight.
Folding a horn increases the time for the bass to reach the ear, hence the slowing. The Voigt pipes also do it to a certain extent, but not as much as a long horn, the delay is not bothersome.
Dear Viewer, the link to the coffee-station, or, as I could call it, the Tea-house is right here: www.buymeacoffee.com/RealWorldAudio This is a way to support my channel in a hassle-free manner, and you can contribute as low as 2$ if you feel compelled. If so, I welcome your support with a warm welcome, it goes a long way to allow me to continue with this channel in the future! All your support will go towards improving this channel, and towards the tweaks and components I explore on the channel. János
So, basically, Single driver speakers are amazing for real music, and they play trash like real trash😂 i am making one, thanks to you. The best driver i could find was a Peerless by Tymphany... let's see how it turns out o:-)
Hi thank you for the very valuable video with many precious advice I am thinking about a 3 ways speaker to build Conscious about the importance of the midrange i am thinking to use a wideband driver to cover it Lets say from 200 to 5k more or less Could it be a good idea ? thanks a lot again gino
It can be a good idea. The range for the wideband depends mostly on 1. how loud you listen and 2. what is the size of the room (which also translates to requiring more SPL for larger rooms for perceived SPL at listening position.) The louder you listen the narrower the range for the midband. The 200-5K is probably the narrowest that makes sense, and also it will behave like a capable midrange driver, nothing more. The benefits will be seen when you let the wideband do at least 100Hz-12kHz. What I would do for myself would be 70Hz to 16kHz for better quality for balanced recordings, with the option to go 200Hz to 16kHz to cut or boost the midbass, and also level the highs. (As midbass is wildly over or under EQd accross the range of recorded music. Same for the top end.)
@@realworldaudio Hi ! thank you very much for your kind and very valuable advice I forgot to mention that the last time they checked my ears i could not listen above 13-14k I am 63 So i guess i could do without a super tweeter and use the WB all the way up The max SPL needed could be about 95dB at 3 meters more or less I listen quite close to speakers I do not even know which could be a model to look for with a great quality/price ratio kind regards gino
Any of the Cube Audios would be of the highest level, and superb match. Sonidos as well I suspect. ; ). The CA Fc8 that I use in my Voigt pipe cabinet (I made the plans available in previous videos) would be a superb match. ;
Other than transparency (aka indicator speakers), what are other key differences of single driver OB vs panel speakers (Apogee, LRS, Electrostatic)? I love panel's presentation but scared of maintenance cost. Considering OB but don't have a first hand comparison yet. Appreciate inputs. Thank you
The biggest difference is that for panels you need a high current / high power amplifier, while for single driver OBs a low power tube amp is the way to go. You get very different synergies with these solutions. I would say choose according to your favorite amplification method. ;
I have Closer Acoustics Ogy speakers. I use a basic amp: Continental Edison PA 9109 and a Bluesound Node (2021) DAC. I found myself a bit underwhelmed listening to Takashi Yoshimatsu. So it's the amp? I listen mostly to Panda Bear these days anyways.
Hi, sorry to bother, just found your comment and I am testing a pair of Ogys right now, but having trouble with bass, almost no bass. Did your bass took some hours/ days to show up or was is there from the very first moment? Wondering if my room is the issue. Thank you. Hope you are enjoying your speakers
Thank you. I am comparing them with my current bokshelf speakers and am no bass head. I will keeo playing and see what happens. Otherwise they are really delightful
@@Thiago_S.. So my reference was the Klipsch RP600M which I didn’t like. The bass in the OGY extends lower and sounds tighter. I will say that the Tripath TA2024 amp I had prior didn’t output much bass with the OGY. The Continental Edison PA9109 40W A/B amp from 1979 brought the speakers alive with more bass and more focused treble. Tube amplifiers are generally recommended with OGY and you’ll get richer bass from that as well but at what cost? Likely 1000~2500€ for a good model on the used market. Vintage transistor amps can be found under 100€ and fixed for about 100€.
@@user-xg6zz8qs3q thank you for the detailed answer, really apprecciate it and it is very interesting to know. I use a dynaudio x14 with reworked crossover as basis for comparison. The bass seems to be slowly improving, I am using a test tone app to check that. Right now I have a class A single ended 8 watts solid state amp with the ogy, but will try later a class A/B70w that I have to see if bass improves or what happens, thanks!
So true! Same thing happened to me, there's no going back... the only exception being the Voice of Lancelot. However, I still have all my single driver speakers, they are not going anywhere!
Have you had any Experience with Omega loudspeakers? I was curious your thoughts if you have. I am torn between DIY single driver or buying a well-made single driver brand for my 2.5 watt SET amp.
I have not come across any of the Omegas... my advice would be to go for the DIY route, it gives you so much more flexibility and options to fine tune to your taste and system. With commercial speakers, it's always an issue to modify them as it ruins resale value. Yet, without mods, you will have only a fraction of their potential.
My grandfather was an exceptional classical musician with absolute hearing. All he could stand listening to was his portable Blaupunkt radio with a single 3in driver.... everything else had tonal issues to his ears.
There are two horn based fullrange classic speakers I want to hear IRL, with really good electronics and front end.. The Voigt Domestic Corner Horns and The Hegeman Horns..
I am not set up to build to sell... BTW shipping from Hawaii would be a true killer, LOL. I made the plans available though! ; ) .. Thank you for asking! Cheers, Janos
It 100% depends on the taste of the individual. Some demand DSP for an acceptable experience, others are totally shut off by it. Some due to what they hear even when they are not told what is the equipment playing, others due to their preconceptions after seeing the gear are flying off their preconceptions written in hard stone. OB single driver is a very hard call because OB does not support midbass and low bass response, it starts to have troubles below 200Hz regardless the drivers. Wide range is only possible with two drivers, let's say a main wide range and a helper woofer EQ-d many dB higher to support the bass. That being said, I ran my OB with the Zenith 12in CZ series wide band driver & supplemented above 15kHz by its complementary tweeter, and it produced the most exciting and engaging rock music I had the fortune to hear. King Crimson never sounded so good (dynamic, heartfelt, punchy and just a KILLER) as that OB with 6AQ5 SE amplifier pumping out 1.5W peak per channel. While we have an astonishing propensity to totally obsess about the extremes, there is a disparaging lack of interest in the midrange, which is the most important aspect of the sound spectrum. And there, single drivers offer certain advantages that multi drivers cannot match. It all comes down to level of execution as well (a banged up budget singe driver will have a deplorable midrange compared to a well-designed 2 way speaker). Yet, keeping budget comparisons fair and matching up same weight & same level of execution players against each other, then multi drivers will ALWAYS win at the extremes & playing super loud, and single drivers will always butcher them in the midrange and playing at normal volumes.
@@realworldaudio Thanks, i am sure i will try a single driver speaker as i have good memories at a show with a smaller room and your comments and youtube videos confirm that experience. Not a combination of OB and single driver but many thanks.
@@GentielioGaming You could look at glowinthedarkaudio.com for single driver speakers, mostly OB, and what are his thoughts on them. I have several videos on Voigt pipes, which are super easy to build yet have very high potential.
Hi James, that driver is beloved by many audiophiles yet I have not heard it, so I have not direct comparison. What I heard of it though, I suspect that the CA is much superior to it in every aspect.
@@realworldaudio I have a pair of Alpaires in KJF audio's Super Pencil enclosures. The attributes you describe fit my experience. I also have 12" Audio Nirvana Classic Alnico drivers in another set of enclosures. Contrary to the Alpairs, these are quite beamy and bright above 1200hz. Can you discuss the impact of cone geometry on dispersion?
@@jamesderby4522 Hi James, I will get into the effects of cone geometry! I have already made a video on the effect of whizzer cone geometry that's coming out shortly, but more will follow... ;)
I think the reason why readjustment is needed when switching to single speaker designs is that they are usually implemented in the purist way, no notch filter to smooth out the "lively" (aka glaring, shouty) upper mids. I have designed filters for my speakers with Audio Nirvana 10 and 12 inch drivers - I sell them through my tiny hifi business - and clients who are "full range virgins" usually come away impressed.
Very interesting and easy to understand. I bought a pair of Jamo GF-25 as my theatre setup has Jamo 707i and 507i from the late 90's. I have another system for old times sake with a pair of B&W 603 S3 connected to the Technics amp. Frankly the GF-25 ($120) speakers left the B&W wanting as the Jamo filled the room with a richer sound. I am quite keen to attempt a speaker build but the room is a bit unusual being 4.5m high 6m wide and 8m deep split into two levels. Heavily insulated plasterboard walls, concrete floors and insulated plywood ceiling. I have an M&K 12" sub installed under the lounge floor which is an insulated timber raised area 4.5m X 6m X 900mm high (carpeted). Do you think the Voigt pipe style would suit this area? I do appreciate there are probably a lot of variables but a rough guide would be appreciated.
Voigt pipes LOVE super tall and deep rooms. My friends pipes with his 4in Fostex drivers are quite amazing with their purity and soaring clarity with high lofty high ceiling, driven by Yamamoto SET (type 45 triodes). The only caveat is that he listens to quiet / moderate volumes at most. My pipes played as loud as I ever wanted to play them in my 4.5m x 10m x 2.5m room. Which is, live feeling grand piano, very good orchestra (similar to 8th row real orchestra volume), and jazz (such as Jazz at the Pawnshop) at 3-5dB quieter than a jazz club. So, if you listen super loud, the 8in driver will not be enough. If you want to have live concert feel, Voigt pipe with the 8in driver will get you that but at a little more modest volume than the real thing (3-6dB quieter), although to tell the truth I welcome that as I can listen louder, and often find a live jazz club just a little too loud and fatiguing. And, if you listen quietly, then Voigt pipes with even smaller drivers than 8in will work, but I know only very few friends who are happy playing at such low volumes. Although I certainly listen louder than that, but also quieter, and when I'm listening to his system in his room I need no higher volumes. Just the knowledge, that you can crank the volume when you feel like, might be a good idea. For those cases the Cube Audio Fc8 will be the one that can play at the highest volume of all 8in suitable drivers. It is very expensive, but you will get a loudspeaker that would set you back 50-100K$ if you wanted to buy something commercial playing at that level. You likely will not need the sub either. (In your room it will play to 20Hz ; ). You will need the sub only if you want to play heavy deep bass very loud.... like a rave party, but for everything else the pipes with Fc8 will take care of everything.
Hi Thomas thanks for the prompt and detailed reply. I will investigate the options and see if the suggested drivers would fit my self funded retiree budget.@@realworldaudio
@@whoisjohngalt-hg5us You will have a great time with the project, and all I can say is that whichever driver you pick all of them are quite fantastic! The Cube Audio Fc8 is in a class of its own, but all the others are quite superb still. Cheers, Janos. (Thomas is at Thomas & stereo channel, this video was an answer to one of his videos ; ).
Having heard a few single driver speakers @ shows , friends homes, owning a pair, over the yrs, I didn't find it necessary to approach listening to them any different than multi driver speakers. Maybe aside from not blasting them, or not playing a bass demo cd.
Have you ever tried mounting a small say 3” or 4” full range driver inside a big tulip shaped horn? I am very interested to hear what that would sound like. E.g GR research or Fostex or Mark Audio drivers .
They have similar ideas posted on UA-cam. Apparently it's big in Asia. The only time I've ever seen smaller drivers truly handle bass properly was a transmission designed in closure. Transmission line is basically a point source coming out the enclosure like an instrument to energize the room that gives the Bass wave a better way to open up. I believe they open on a 1/4 wave which sounds full but not exaggerated I suppose a speaker (or speakers) with a big enough surface area and proper x mas could do it as well. Takes WAY more to energize the room with open baffle butt speakers in a ported box isn't going to give me what I want.
Hello, you are in the process of building an "active" cabinet, it would be interesting to test which type of wood is best suited. Violin makers use old mountain spruce for the top of a violin and the soundpost inside, as this wood transmits harmonic resonances best. Liebe Grüße Lars
Hello Lars, that is one dream of mine, to make / hear them with different luthier woods. The luthuier grade spruce has the ability to transmit the widest range of frequencies, all other wood will sound more colored / with stronger personality in comparison. However, I found that all wood cabinets have their own beauty in sound. Cheers, Janos
On axis phase coherence might be their only advantage, they tend to sound muddy and cheap to my ears, back in the day the very first job was to replace the full range stock car speakers with coaxial 2 or 3 ways.
Car audio is a whole different animal. Coaxial car speakers are often thought of as 'better sounding' because they exaggerate the treble more than stock speakers. From a standpoint of true high fidelity there is nothing at all to like about most coaxial car speakers and their resonating plastic tweeter with a single capacitor on them.
@@westelaudio943 No, it's because full range speakers sound muddy and cheap, as I've already said. Single cone speaker are good for diy, I can appreciate their simplicity, i.e you don't have to design a crossover for the mess you have likely created, that's about it.
@@johnshaw359 So, does your coaxial car speaker have a real crossover, consisting of inductors, capacitors, AND resistors? If yes, it _might_ be a fantastic speaker, though it will never sound up to it's full potential in a plastic car door panel. If not, and there's just a single capacitor, then you've got nothing but a 'boom-ts' machine with extremely pronounced treble and poor midrange full of resonances and other non linearities,and what you call 'cheap, muddy' is actually the more natural sound. Full range speakers have some drawbacks which might be more apparent in the automotive setting that is their beamy treble and Doppler effect distortion at high volumes. Those problems can be overcome in home audio. Full range speaker drivers also make excellent mid-treble drivers in tweeterless two-way designs which gets rid of the Doppler effect while maintaining the point source where it is most important. They are excellent as pure midranges as well. There are also many types of full range drivers from cheap and nasty over inexpensive and good to very expensive and great.
Car audio is a very special beast... the change from single driver to coaxial was focused on how to get louder output. It was a complete success, coax drivers can put out vastly higher SPLs compared to single drivers. In my case, I went from coax car speaker to single driver. I lost the ability to blast music when driving on the highway with 80-90dB ambient highway noise, or even higher when the windows are down. Instead, I drive on highways with noise protection headphones to save my hearing for delicate moments and old age. On the other hand, when parked or waiting at the red light, or city traffic I get to enjoy Claudio Arrau's piano play. With coax - after a few notes I wanted to dive for the off button. Horses for courses.
I have only built a single driver full range mono horn speaker for my personal listening, and if you can reproduce acoustic cello with some degree of empathy, then everything else falls into place. I accept that extreme bass and treble is outside my sound system capability, and I find that my inner ear fills in the gaps quite happily. It depends on what you want, I’m not an audiophile, and I don’t think it is necessary to be one to enjoy music. What I do have is a deeply immersive experience that I can lose myself in. But if I want deep bass and high end, I can listen to my music collection on headphones for a different, yet equal kind of experience.
Actually, it is possible. It requires a very strong motor, and careful implementation. Single drivers employ extremely strong motors, while the majority of multi drivers use very puny motors in comparison. Car analogy: a single driver is being driven by a 1000HP engine, while multi driver speakers are like 200HP engine for woofer, 100HP for mids and another 100HP tweeter... maybe 800HP tweeter for high tech, but even the best woofers fail to reach 500HP. While most single drivers excel at the midrange only, and are just good at the extremes, some can really stretch the envelope. The Cube Audio Fc8 in the Voigt pipe cabinet has 25Hz-19kHz under control. To such a degree that it schools even very good subwoofers, and the top extension truly embarrasses about 99% of all tweeters. And that coming without crossover and single point source. A very different playing field from multi drivers. There's a lot more to it.... Just imagine: the Fc8 has 2T in the voice coil gap - such flux density for producing bass!!! When we have a dedicated woofer, they have nowhere 2T strength.... so do not let the single cone fool you, you are dealing with one of the strongest loudspeaker motors ever built in the Fc8.
Every speaker driver produces different frequencies. Just like a microphone or your eardrums can pick up hundreds of frequencies with a single diaphragm surface at the same time. The key is _the sum_ of all those frequencies.
There is no theoretical limit to how many frequencies a single driver can play at the same time. There are some practical challenges, though, like cone break up (a cone moving uniformly at lower frequencies will start to wobble at some point because of it's inertia) but that can be overcome by damping those break up modes as good as possible and adding a whizzer cone, the little 'trumpet' shaped thing in the center of many larger full range drivers, giving the treble a stiff surface to radiate from.
I have rules (like point source is imperative) but I also have an open mind and if it sounds better I do it (even if it breaks the rules). And that goes with crossovers and boxes as well as drivers. I know point t source is better but an added woofer (to me) makes it sound better. So I broke the rules. And any fairly cheap FR driver always sounds so much better with a filter to hush up the SHOUTINESS. And I break the rules with the worst caps ever. Electrolytics! Yep, cos (on single drivers) they just sound way better! Less "brittle" more "silky". And I run it half out of the box, some gap between the driver and the hole (that is bass vent treated). Too much for a comment to tell you exactly how. But they sound better than my expensive B&W reference speakers, by a mile.
Indeed, the electrolytic caps sound warmer than film caps in crossover use. Especially with solid state amplifiers, they can really take off the edge off harshness. 👍🎶 Sometimes you need an electrolytic in the corssover. When I had my Zenith open baffle, I was running the 12in woofer full range, and the 4in paper tweeter with a first order highpass using a single electrolytic. It was an ancient sprague atom that was the original crossover from 1957. I tried everything, all kinds of film caps, but nothing sounded even remotely close! (Everything was brittle and harsh). While there are trends, indeed, in cases there are different solutions.. ; )
7:45 Piano won't sound any good on conventional 2 ways or 3 ways. Only single drivers or coaxials can make piano sound any good. Maybe that's why they say piano is difficult to reproduce. They haven't heard piano on good point source speakers.
Adding a bass driver to a full range doing mids and high is an old, well established trick. Check out the Acoustic Research AR-1 - from 1954. Though I think the crossover frequency was somewhat higher, around 500 cycles or something. Adding a super tweeter is also not that uncommon, though I think it often does more harm than good (comb filtering). The required distance between the midrange and the tweeter to maintain phase coherency is reverse proportional to the crossover point, and it's almost impossible to do at 10kHz.
@@westelaudio943 no actually it's the opposite that makes the zu audio speakers good. The woofer is doing bass mids and some highs with the super tweeter being crossed over to just the highs. This allows the crossover to be very minimal and thus you can use fewer parts and just add a filter to send the highs to the super tweeter. Because the woofer is doing almost everything the sound is very coherent. The woofer is in its happy place and the magic happens. In the opposite way having the woofer handle mids and highs while adding a bass driver you may get better extension but worse sound. Woofers don't usually do well on highs the bigger they are. The highs will tend to beam more and you lose sparkle. Also the crossover becomes more complex. And to make it high quality you need more money.
@@westelaudio943 Thanks. I actually owned (inherited) a pair of AR 2A and 2AX while I was in college. I understand the challenge with comb filtering but I suspect it’s more theoretical than practical. More than one full range enthusiast has happily mated a small ribbon with the full range.
@@V1ralB1ack Sorry, the full range is doing mids and highs of course. I think you misread my sentence or it was too ambiguous. It uses a 12" woofer which Henry Kloss designed himself, in the first proper sealed (acoustic suspension) cabinet. Mids and treble are done by an Altec 755a full-range.
I do agree with you. I am however amused by one of the adamant statements about high frequencies you make in a comment. That is not unusual among audiophiles who invests countless hours and/or hard earned money on their darling (!) project. Like me. 😊 My experience differ when I comes to the parasitic wizzer cone. I just don’t like it. It does not handle dynamics and higher volume levels* well and I rather miss that kind of high frequency extension. Please check your own preferred listening level with a dB-meter or dB-meter app on your phone. Hehe. That’s why I enjoy the 10Y, 45 or 46-tube based amplifier systems. Have a reality check before you salivate over Wilson, Krell et consortes (*above 85-90dB)
So true, above 85-90dB or so, single drivers, even the best start to show distortion in the high frequency. Even the ones without whizzer cones.... ;) Average levels or quiet listening, I often find myself in a blissful state with them.
@@realworldaudio We may have developed extra sensitivity for anomalies when committing ourselves to the small amplifier and analytical filter less speakers 😊 I am shocked about the HiFi-industry’s proclivity to favour complex solutions. A sure way to forever search the way out of the audio equivalent of the Minos cave. I do however like the red thread you supply for the soon-to-be initiated.
@@HansJonsson1235 Thank you Hans!! ✨✨👍 I think the industry is fixated on complexity because it's better for the sales. While they are pushing the loudness wars, most people in fact wants to listen at normal volumes... (with a few notable exceptions who want 100+dB SPL, but those are not the bulk of adiophiles, yet the exception). Only going crazy loud needs complexity.... while normal levels benefit tremendously from simplicity. Also, with simplicity one can soon find a balanced system that stops the upgrade / purchase itch. While with complexity you never reach absolute satisfaction... extreme SPL by default forbids the mind peace and comfort....
If you know how to properly pair a subwoofer, a subwoofer pair to be more precise, 80% of the negative aspect you talk about with the upper bass region will completely disappear. BTW, my audiophile membership was taken away because there's not a single Diana Krall recording in my connection.
LOL, I only listen to her and other typical audiofile courses when friends put them on in audio get togethers! :) My license should be taken away as well. ✨✨👍👍 Cheers, Janos
Does it really make such a big difference whether the speakers are wired directly to the amplifier or via a terminal like @Iam Mad did with the Le Petit?
It depends highly on the rest of the system. If the rest is full with connectors, lesser grade wires, lower quality solder, then it might be even disappointing not to use a binding post, as most commercial amps expect that extra resistance and smearing that to be in the signal path, and you might start hearing the high frequency issues of the amplifier even more. However, when the system is free from such issues, it is a massive gain. As big as the difference between a poor speaker cable and a good speaker cable. The difference will come mainly in the form of the system being able to reproduce extremely low level signals, that leads to emotional impact appearing & becoming much more powerful.
In summary, if the amp / system can resolve extremely low level details, then it's vital to have as direct path between amp and driver as possible. If it has trouble with low levels, then opening a direct path for the signal level will just allow all the noise to come through that resides in that region, and will make sound likely feel as "unstable", edgy, not settled.
Just a passing comment Janos I got a chance to here Diana Krall live in 1992 and 1993
at a local Italian restaurant for free and while I did not get the lap dance that Thomas refers
to I sat no more than 10 feet away from her piano. With accompanying bass and drums minimally microphoned and and sitting in the near field it sounded way better than any stereo I have ever heard by far no matter who built it. A friend of a friend recorded the event
on a Sony pro walkman cassette recorder and was confronted by Diana and a big body guard after the show in the parking lot.Diana told my friend that she had just signed up with Sony and did not want any bootleg recordings of her out there. When she found out that the recording was just analog and not digital she changed her mind and let him keep the cassette. Regards Lou
Cool story dude👍
@@EddyTeetree You are so very welcomed sir
Hi Lou, just ran across this older video of mine, and noticed that my response is missing from your comment... indeed, I myself am not safe from the ravages of YT random censorship.
I've always wondered about single driver speakers and this is the best balanced view on single driver speakers that I've seen/read and from someone who clearly likes them. I will subscribe and would have happily watched a longer video!
Thank you! ✨✨👍 Cheers, Janos
Great explanation as always. Greetings from very humid Jakarta, Indonesia !
Cheers, getting humid here too! :) Normally humidity is about 60% here, but September / October it gets a lot more humid. Can feel it building up this week... ; )
What great and useful explanations. Many thanks and congratulations for this one !
You are welcome!
Grew up in the seventies and eighties during the height of Radio Shack. My buddies and I built some great sounding cabinets with 51/4 full range speakers. Powered them with a Realistic 10w reaciever. I enjoyed this set up for twelve years. Single drivers are very capable. So much fun
Excellent presentation of the potential that single drive speakers have inherent and will exemplify individual components and their effect positive or negative to your system a live testing node. Interesting to say the least
Thank you James! My observation is that no component lives in a vacuum, and we cannot talk about them without knowing how to match them optimally.. a lot of advice on that in the past & future videos .. ;
Haha 😂 Janos, I watched Thomas’ vid and immediately thought of you! Absolutely fantastic overview and explanation. 👍🔊🎵😊🎶🐱
Thank you Nick, LOL! :)
I had the chance to demo a pair of Cube Audio Nenuphar Mini a few weeks ago and I have to say, they sounded really, really impressive. Very likely that I will buy a pair sometime in the future. I have never considered my own Zingali horn speakers to sound "nasal" or anything like that, but when hearing the Nenuphar Mini, listening to music I'm very familiar with, the first thing I was struck by how natural and neutral they sounded with my Leben CS600 amplifier.
I also love the fact that the Cube Audio speakers don't use a network. Just straight wires from the connectors on the back to the driver, no cheap components "tainting" the sound.
Glad to hear your report on the Nenuphar Mini! I also have a similar experience, the Fc8 is a very neutral and natural sounding diver.
Thank you for this explanation. Best description yet.
I am using open baffle with a concentric for 100 up, and an 18" for low range. But nothing below 40hz. So not perfect.
For OB very had to get anything below 40Hz... yet, 40+Hz is much better than anything with box cabinets. It's like having two courses of fine food (upper and midbass), versus having three mediocre courses (upper, mid and low bass) with traditional cabinets. Neither is perfect, just a choice whether we go for a narrower selection of delights, or a full range of meh. ; ).
@@realworldaudio Well said!
I remember owning a pair of speakers that was a closed box with a single 8 inch full range driver, it didn't do chest pounding bass but I remember vocals were surprisingly realistic. It was very lackluster in every other regard though, and listening to rock music I definitely missed deep bass and clashing cymbal hits.
Great video and info on full range driver speakers....Ed in New York....😎🌃🎶🎵🎶🎵
Cheers Ed, thank you for tuning in!!!! 👍👍✨✨✨✨😎😎🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼🎼
@@realworldaudio 🌃👏👏👏thank you Janos 😊
7:45 Piano is amazing on single driver speakers. I got single driver speakers and some conventonal 2-ways (B&W 706). And compared to my FR driver speakers the 706s completely fail on piano!
Flat Frequencies can be projected with an adjustment from an eq. Imaging and tone is my main focus. It seems like these speakers can do all of this if set up correctly.
I would imagine these speakers will excell with imaging. Ironically I think these would sound more complete with a small sub. From my past experience( and limited knowledge about these speakers) I would let the single driver handle anything over 150 hz and use small step offs on the eq for a smoother transition.
I would also like to try an amp from Decware or even the newer Willsenton r300 with it
For a smaller space or well acoustically treated room, this seems like a special experience
Many single driver speakers start rolling off below 150Hz or so, so that can be a valid compromise to turn them back into 2 way with a sub. Another option is to dig deeper into the single driver field and find the ones that work in the bass region as well. Of note, it all hinges on tastes. When one needs midbass to dominate the sound, then sub is a must. Another case where you need a sub to supplement is when one listens excessively loud.
If you look for a balanced sound, a sub will always be usually quite inferior choice to a very good single driver. As Frank said, things need to be experienced, and one of these things is good single driver bass. The bass quality, coherence and its texture can be extraordinary because there's no gimmicking with crossovers and different sources...
Excellent
Thank you ! ;
Mahalo bro. As I might have previously said I’m now using Goodmans Full Range 301’s from the 1950’s and their stated range in 30hz-16khz. What I don’t get is that the lowest note possible for a musical instrument is 40.5hz low E dble Bass so why is everyone i mean all these HiFi experts so concerned about inserting Sub bass units into their systems whilst professing to want to hear “natural” music. Of course the range quoted on these drivers is subject to the cabinet too. Mine are in boxes that were recommended by Goodmans. In fact most likely made by them. So I’m guessing they deliver as close to the specified freq. as is possible and I gotta say playing everything from a live jazz quartet thru electronic to grunge I’m happy with the “real-ness” these are providing.
Really enjoy these reaction videos by the way.👍
I share that with you .......
Drums and organs are acoustic instruments that can produce frequencies lower than 40 cycles. For most music it's not really necessary.
@@westelaudio943 hi can u site a reference for that? I did some research and found the double bass analogy so I’d be interested to know more. Thanks 😊
@@frankgeeraerts6243 😊
Hi Janos, I have firsthand experience with owning Lii Song's folded horn speakers. They are called the Fieke and are designed by Leon Huijgen of PureAudioProject. They are the speakers that look like a hungry Minion ate a gloss black piano. The speakers sound exceptional with acoustic music, especially with string instruments and piano. The lower octaves breathe easily and develop in an expressive way when compared to bass reflex speakers. However, something I notice more and more is a partial delay in the lower octaves. While the bass is full and resonates in a natural way, it also takes just a tiny bit longer to come into its own when compared to the higher frequencies. Is this effect inherent in folded horns? Do Voigt pipes and folded pipes have huge differences compared to this type of folded horn? Thank you for your insight.
Folding a horn increases the time for the bass to reach the ear, hence the slowing. The Voigt pipes also do it to a certain extent, but not as much as a long horn, the delay is not bothersome.
I love single driver speakers, very revealing I use tangband
Thank you for the feedback! 👍✨
Dear Viewer, the link to the coffee-station, or, as I could call it, the Tea-house is right here:
www.buymeacoffee.com/RealWorldAudio
This is a way to support my channel in a hassle-free manner, and you can contribute as low as 2$ if you feel compelled. If so, I welcome your support with a warm welcome, it goes a long way to allow me to continue with this channel in the future! All your support will go towards improving this channel, and towards the tweaks and components I explore on the channel.
János
So, basically, Single driver speakers are amazing for real music, and they play trash like real trash😂 i am making one, thanks to you. The best driver i could find was a Peerless by Tymphany... let's see how it turns out o:-)
So well said! 🎶🎶 Have fun & good luck with your project!! I'm curious how it turns out!
I made mine with 10" PRV full range drivers(100dB) in 1.8cf boxes from a thrift store, total cost $170. Pleasure unlimited.
Hi thank you for the very valuable video with many precious advice
I am thinking about a 3 ways speaker to build Conscious about the importance of the midrange i am thinking to use a wideband driver to cover it Lets say from 200 to 5k more or less Could it be a good idea ? thanks a lot again gino
It can be a good idea. The range for the wideband depends mostly on 1. how loud you listen and 2. what is the size of the room (which also translates to requiring more SPL for larger rooms for perceived SPL at listening position.) The louder you listen the narrower the range for the midband. The 200-5K is probably the narrowest that makes sense, and also it will behave like a capable midrange driver, nothing more. The benefits will be seen when you let the wideband do at least 100Hz-12kHz. What I would do for myself would be 70Hz to 16kHz for better quality for balanced recordings, with the option to go 200Hz to 16kHz to cut or boost the midbass, and also level the highs. (As midbass is wildly over or under EQd accross the range of recorded music. Same for the top end.)
@@realworldaudio Hi ! thank you very much for your kind and very valuable advice
I forgot to mention that the last time they checked my ears i could not listen above 13-14k I am 63 So i guess i could do without a super tweeter and use the WB all the way up
The max SPL needed could be about 95dB at 3 meters more or less I listen quite close to speakers
I do not even know which could be a model to look for with a great quality/price ratio
kind regards gino
Janos, what DIY single driver speaker concept you would recommend, for a SET 845 amp, in a small to medium size room? Thanks a lot.
Any of the Cube Audios would be of the highest level, and superb match. Sonidos as well I suspect. ; ). The CA Fc8 that I use in my Voigt pipe cabinet (I made the plans available in previous videos) would be a superb match. ;
Other than transparency (aka indicator speakers), what are other key differences of single driver OB vs panel speakers (Apogee, LRS, Electrostatic)?
I love panel's presentation but scared of maintenance cost. Considering OB but don't have a first hand comparison yet. Appreciate inputs. Thank you
The biggest difference is that for panels you need a high current / high power amplifier, while for single driver OBs a low power tube amp is the way to go. You get very different synergies with these solutions. I would say choose according to your favorite amplification method. ;
Do you like open baffle speakers like Pure Audio project Duet Prelude?
@@klepp19 worth checking. Steve Guttenberg made that his reference
Thanks for all of the great information. Would you suggest the Voigt or the Folded Voigt to someone trying their first speaker build?
LOL, I made a series of videos on that... YES, resounding YES for Voigt pipes as first speaker project.
Added benefit of no crossover insertion losses (up to 3-6db gain in SPL)
I have Closer Acoustics Ogy speakers. I use a basic amp: Continental Edison PA 9109 and a Bluesound Node (2021) DAC. I found myself a bit underwhelmed listening to Takashi Yoshimatsu. So it's the amp? I listen mostly to Panda Bear these days anyways.
Hi, sorry to bother, just found your comment and I am testing a pair of Ogys right now, but having trouble with bass, almost no bass. Did your bass took some hours/ days to show up or was is there from the very first moment? Wondering if my room is the issue. Thank you. Hope you are enjoying your speakers
@@Thiago_S.. The bass is light like any bookshelf speaker. Thanks . I am using my pair for hours every day.
Thank you. I am comparing them with my current bokshelf speakers and am no bass head. I will keeo playing and see what happens. Otherwise they are really delightful
@@Thiago_S.. So my reference was the Klipsch RP600M which I didn’t like. The bass in the OGY extends lower and sounds tighter. I will say that the Tripath TA2024 amp I had prior didn’t output much bass with the OGY. The Continental Edison PA9109 40W A/B amp from 1979 brought the speakers alive with more bass and more focused treble. Tube amplifiers are generally recommended with OGY and you’ll get richer bass from that as well but at what cost? Likely 1000~2500€ for a good model on the used market. Vintage transistor amps can be found under 100€ and fixed for about 100€.
@@user-xg6zz8qs3q thank you for the detailed answer, really apprecciate it and it is very interesting to know. I use a dynaudio x14 with reworked crossover as basis for comparison. The bass seems to be slowly improving, I am using a test tone app to check that. Right now I have a class A single ended 8 watts solid state amp with the ogy, but will try later a class A/B70w that I have to see if bass improves or what happens, thanks!
I build speakers with single drivers and with time aligned coaxial drivers. For me at least, once you go point source there is no going back!
So true! Same thing happened to me, there's no going back... the only exception being the Voice of Lancelot. However, I still have all my single driver speakers, they are not going anywhere!
Have you had any Experience with Omega loudspeakers? I was curious your thoughts if you have. I am torn between DIY single driver or buying a well-made single driver brand for my 2.5 watt SET amp.
I have not come across any of the Omegas... my advice would be to go for the DIY route, it gives you so much more flexibility and options to fine tune to your taste and system. With commercial speakers, it's always an issue to modify them as it ruins resale value. Yet, without mods, you will have only a fraction of their potential.
@@realworldaudio Thanks for that excellent advice. 👍That makes perfect sense.
Is this why my radio sounds so good
My grandfather was an exceptional classical musician with absolute hearing. All he could stand listening to was his portable Blaupunkt radio with a single 3in driver.... everything else had tonal issues to his ears.
Btw which manufacturer makes the best widebander? Voxativ, Cube, AER, Lii, Tang Band etc.
There are two horn based fullrange classic speakers I want to hear IRL, with really good electronics and front end.. The Voigt Domestic Corner Horns and The Hegeman Horns..
✨✨✨✨👍👍👍👍👍👍
Would love to buy a pair of your speakers. How can I do that?
I am not set up to build to sell... BTW shipping from Hawaii would be a true killer, LOL. I made the plans available though! ; ) .. Thank you for asking! Cheers, Janos
Hello Janos, Do you know how the two speakers Fostex 108 EZ Sigma and Fostex FE 108 Ns differ sonically ?
Is a open baffle single driver speaker possible to have a good range from let's say 40hz to 15khz possible in a room? Or would this need dsp?
It 100% depends on the taste of the individual. Some demand DSP for an acceptable experience, others are totally shut off by it. Some due to what they hear even when they are not told what is the equipment playing, others due to their preconceptions after seeing the gear are flying off their preconceptions written in hard stone. OB single driver is a very hard call because OB does not support midbass and low bass response, it starts to have troubles below 200Hz regardless the drivers. Wide range is only possible with two drivers, let's say a main wide range and a helper woofer EQ-d many dB higher to support the bass. That being said, I ran my OB with the Zenith 12in CZ series wide band driver & supplemented above 15kHz by its complementary tweeter, and it produced the most exciting and engaging rock music I had the fortune to hear. King Crimson never sounded so good (dynamic, heartfelt, punchy and just a KILLER) as that OB with 6AQ5 SE amplifier pumping out 1.5W peak per channel.
While we have an astonishing propensity to totally obsess about the extremes, there is a disparaging lack of interest in the midrange, which is the most important aspect of the sound spectrum. And there, single drivers offer certain advantages that multi drivers cannot match. It all comes down to level of execution as well (a banged up budget singe driver will have a deplorable midrange compared to a well-designed 2 way speaker). Yet, keeping budget comparisons fair and matching up same weight & same level of execution players against each other, then multi drivers will ALWAYS win at the extremes & playing super loud, and single drivers will always butcher them in the midrange and playing at normal volumes.
@@realworldaudio Thanks, i am sure i will try a single driver speaker as i have good memories at a show with a smaller room and your comments and youtube videos confirm that experience. Not a combination of OB and single driver but many thanks.
@@GentielioGaming You could look at glowinthedarkaudio.com for single driver speakers, mostly OB, and what are his thoughts on them. I have several videos on Voigt pipes, which are super easy to build yet have very high potential.
Have you ever done videos explaining how crossover's work?
Yes, about a dozen or so already ;) >
How does the cube driver compare to the Mark Audio Alpaire 12P?
Hi James, that driver is beloved by many audiophiles yet I have not heard it, so I have not direct comparison. What I heard of it though, I suspect that the CA is much superior to it in every aspect.
@@realworldaudio I have a pair of Alpaires in KJF audio's Super Pencil enclosures. The attributes you describe fit my experience. I also have 12" Audio Nirvana Classic Alnico drivers in another set of enclosures. Contrary to the Alpairs, these are quite beamy and bright above 1200hz. Can you discuss the impact of cone geometry on dispersion?
@@jamesderby4522 Hi James, I will get into the effects of cone geometry! I have already made a video on the effect of whizzer cone geometry that's coming out shortly, but more will follow... ;)
I think the reason why readjustment is needed when switching to single speaker designs is that they are usually implemented in the purist way, no notch filter to smooth out the "lively" (aka glaring, shouty) upper mids. I have designed filters for my speakers with Audio Nirvana 10 and 12 inch drivers - I sell them through my tiny hifi business - and clients who are "full range virgins" usually come away impressed.
Hello and thank you for your video.
What app did you use to measure how low your speakers could go in your room?
Hi, it's called Sonic Tools.
Who are the major full range driver mfg and how do their designs and sound compare?
Very interesting and easy to understand. I bought a pair of Jamo GF-25 as my theatre setup has Jamo 707i and 507i from the late 90's. I have another system for old times sake with a pair of B&W 603 S3 connected to the Technics amp. Frankly the GF-25 ($120) speakers left the B&W wanting as the Jamo filled the room with a richer sound. I am quite keen to attempt a speaker build but the room is a bit unusual being 4.5m high 6m wide and 8m deep split into two levels. Heavily insulated plasterboard walls, concrete floors and insulated plywood ceiling. I have an M&K 12" sub installed under the lounge floor which is an insulated timber raised area 4.5m X 6m X 900mm high (carpeted). Do you think the Voigt pipe style would suit this area?
I do appreciate there are probably a lot of variables but a rough guide would be appreciated.
Voigt pipes LOVE super tall and deep rooms. My friends pipes with his 4in Fostex drivers are quite amazing with their purity and soaring clarity with high lofty high ceiling, driven by Yamamoto SET (type 45 triodes). The only caveat is that he listens to quiet / moderate volumes at most. My pipes played as loud as I ever wanted to play them in my 4.5m x 10m x 2.5m room. Which is, live feeling grand piano, very good orchestra (similar to 8th row real orchestra volume), and jazz (such as Jazz at the Pawnshop) at 3-5dB quieter than a jazz club. So, if you listen super loud, the 8in driver will not be enough. If you want to have live concert feel, Voigt pipe with the 8in driver will get you that but at a little more modest volume than the real thing (3-6dB quieter), although to tell the truth I welcome that as I can listen louder, and often find a live jazz club just a little too loud and fatiguing.
And, if you listen quietly, then Voigt pipes with even smaller drivers than 8in will work, but I know only very few friends who are happy playing at such low volumes. Although I certainly listen louder than that, but also quieter, and when I'm listening to his system in his room I need no higher volumes. Just the knowledge, that you can crank the volume when you feel like, might be a good idea. For those cases the Cube Audio Fc8 will be the one that can play at the highest volume of all 8in suitable drivers. It is very expensive, but you will get a loudspeaker that would set you back 50-100K$ if you wanted to buy something commercial playing at that level. You likely will not need the sub either. (In your room it will play to 20Hz ; ). You will need the sub only if you want to play heavy deep bass very loud.... like a rave party, but for everything else the pipes with Fc8 will take care of everything.
Hi Thomas thanks for the prompt and detailed reply. I will investigate the options and see if the suggested drivers would fit my self funded retiree budget.@@realworldaudio
@@whoisjohngalt-hg5us You will have a great time with the project, and all I can say is that whichever driver you pick all of them are quite fantastic! The Cube Audio Fc8 is in a class of its own, but all the others are quite superb still. Cheers, Janos. (Thomas is at Thomas & stereo channel, this video was an answer to one of his videos ; ).
@@realworldaudio oops sorry my bad must have been looking at his name
@@whoisjohngalt-hg5usNo worries ; )
Having heard a few single driver speakers @ shows , friends homes, owning a pair, over the yrs, I didn't find it necessary to approach listening to them any different than multi driver speakers. Maybe aside from not blasting them, or not playing a bass demo cd.
Have you ever tried mounting a small say 3” or 4” full range driver inside a big tulip shaped horn? I am very interested to hear what that would sound like. E.g GR research or Fostex or Mark Audio drivers .
They have similar ideas posted on UA-cam. Apparently it's big in Asia. The only time I've ever seen smaller drivers truly handle bass properly was a transmission designed in closure.
Transmission line is basically a point source coming out the enclosure like an instrument to energize the room that gives the Bass wave a better way to open up. I believe they open on a 1/4 wave which sounds full but not exaggerated
I suppose a speaker (or speakers) with a big enough surface area and proper x mas could do it as well. Takes WAY more to energize the room with open baffle butt speakers in a ported box isn't going to give me what I want.
Hello, you are in the process of building an "active" cabinet, it would be interesting to test which type of wood is best suited. Violin makers use old mountain spruce for the top of a violin and the soundpost inside, as this wood transmits harmonic resonances best. Liebe Grüße Lars
Hello Lars, that is one dream of mine, to make / hear them with different luthier woods. The luthuier grade spruce has the ability to transmit the widest range of frequencies, all other wood will sound more colored / with stronger personality in comparison. However, I found that all wood cabinets have their own beauty in sound. Cheers, Janos
Thanks just check le petit by Jean Hiragas….
Sounds like a medical situation
On axis phase coherence might be their only advantage, they tend to sound muddy and cheap to my ears, back in the day the very first job was to replace the full range stock car speakers with coaxial 2 or 3 ways.
Car audio is a whole different animal.
Coaxial car speakers are often thought of as 'better sounding' because they exaggerate the treble more than stock speakers. From a standpoint of true high fidelity there is nothing at all to like about most coaxial car speakers and their resonating plastic tweeter with a single capacitor on them.
@@westelaudio943 No, it's because full range speakers sound muddy and cheap, as I've already said. Single cone speaker are good for diy, I can appreciate their simplicity, i.e you don't have to design a crossover for the mess you have likely created, that's about it.
@@johnshaw359
So, does your coaxial car speaker have a real crossover, consisting of inductors, capacitors, AND resistors?
If yes, it _might_ be a fantastic speaker, though it will never sound up to it's full potential in a plastic car door panel.
If not, and there's just a single capacitor, then you've got nothing but a 'boom-ts' machine with extremely pronounced treble and poor midrange full of resonances and other non linearities,and what you call 'cheap, muddy' is actually the more natural sound.
Full range speakers have some drawbacks which might be more apparent in the automotive setting that is their beamy treble and Doppler effect distortion at high volumes. Those problems can be overcome in home audio. Full range speaker drivers also make excellent mid-treble drivers in tweeterless two-way designs which gets rid of the Doppler effect while maintaining the point source where it is most important. They are excellent as pure midranges as well. There are also many types of full range drivers from cheap and nasty over inexpensive and good to very expensive and great.
@@westelaudio943 I need more than 12khz so no. Unless Tannoy DC no thanks. As I said "phase coherence might be their only advantage".
Car audio is a very special beast... the change from single driver to coaxial was focused on how to get louder output. It was a complete success, coax drivers can put out vastly higher SPLs compared to single drivers.
In my case, I went from coax car speaker to single driver. I lost the ability to blast music when driving on the highway with 80-90dB ambient highway noise, or even higher when the windows are down. Instead, I drive on highways with noise protection headphones to save my hearing for delicate moments and old age.
On the other hand, when parked or waiting at the red light, or city traffic I get to enjoy Claudio Arrau's piano play. With coax - after a few notes I wanted to dive for the off button.
Horses for courses.
I have only built a single driver full range mono horn speaker for my personal listening, and if you can reproduce acoustic cello with some degree of empathy, then everything else falls into place. I accept that extreme bass and treble is outside my sound system capability, and I find that my inner ear fills in the gaps quite happily. It depends on what you want, I’m not an audiophile, and I don’t think it is necessary to be one to enjoy music. What I do have is a deeply immersive experience that I can lose myself in. But if I want deep bass and high end, I can listen to my music collection on headphones for a different, yet equal kind of experience.
Hi William, I'm there with you, when a system can reproduce the range of a cello, then it has the most important aspects down (at least for me). ✨
Nothing sounds as transparent as single driver speakers.
How do single drivers actually work? How can they produce different frequencies at the same time? Impossible right?!
Actually, it is possible. It requires a very strong motor, and careful implementation. Single drivers employ extremely strong motors, while the majority of multi drivers use very puny motors in comparison. Car analogy: a single driver is being driven by a 1000HP engine, while multi driver speakers are like 200HP engine for woofer, 100HP for mids and another 100HP tweeter... maybe 800HP tweeter for high tech, but even the best woofers fail to reach 500HP.
While most single drivers excel at the midrange only, and are just good at the extremes, some can really stretch the envelope. The Cube Audio Fc8 in the Voigt pipe cabinet has 25Hz-19kHz under control. To such a degree that it schools even very good subwoofers, and the top extension truly embarrasses about 99% of all tweeters. And that coming without crossover and single point source. A very different playing field from multi drivers. There's a lot more to it....
Just imagine: the Fc8 has 2T in the voice coil gap - such flux density for producing bass!!! When we have a dedicated woofer, they have nowhere 2T strength.... so do not let the single cone fool you, you are dealing with one of the strongest loudspeaker motors ever built in the Fc8.
@@realworldaudio its one of my dreams to own a Nenuphar driver and so I can listen to Thomas Anders ALL day 😀
1modernthinking1.............judgement & prejudice ... without experience and knowledge is the brainchild of this time ......
Every speaker driver produces different frequencies. Just like a microphone or your eardrums can pick up hundreds of frequencies with a single diaphragm surface at the same time. The key is _the sum_ of all those frequencies.
On the surface they seem to suck. How can they combine all those frequencies?
There is no theoretical limit to how many frequencies a single driver can play at the same time.
There are some practical challenges, though, like cone break up (a cone moving uniformly at lower frequencies will start to wobble at some point because of it's inertia) but that can be overcome by damping those break up modes as good as possible and adding a whizzer cone, the little 'trumpet' shaped thing in the center of many larger full range drivers, giving the treble a stiff surface to radiate from.
I got to make a video of a particular experience... will come shortly to illustrate. ✨✨✨✨👍👍
I learned a lot from single driver speakers. In short they are not for me!
Did you ever tried Jordan Eikona 2 drivers?
Songer Audio S1 👍
I have rules (like point source is imperative) but I also have an open mind and if it sounds better I do it (even if it breaks the rules). And that goes with crossovers and boxes as well as drivers. I know point t source is better but an added woofer (to me) makes it sound better. So I broke the rules. And any fairly cheap FR driver always sounds so much better with a filter to hush up the SHOUTINESS. And I break the rules with the worst caps ever. Electrolytics! Yep, cos (on single drivers) they just sound way better! Less "brittle" more "silky". And I run it half out of the box, some gap between the driver and the hole (that is bass vent treated). Too much for a comment to tell you exactly how. But they sound better than my expensive B&W reference speakers, by a mile.
Indeed, the electrolytic caps sound warmer than film caps in crossover use. Especially with solid state amplifiers, they can really take off the edge off harshness. 👍🎶 Sometimes you need an electrolytic in the corssover. When I had my Zenith open baffle, I was running the 12in woofer full range, and the 4in paper tweeter with a first order highpass using a single electrolytic. It was an ancient sprague atom that was the original crossover from 1957. I tried everything, all kinds of film caps, but nothing sounded even remotely close! (Everything was brittle and harsh).
While there are trends, indeed, in cases there are different solutions.. ; )
7:45 Piano won't sound any good on conventional 2 ways or 3 ways. Only single drivers or coaxials can make piano sound any good. Maybe that's why they say piano is difficult to reproduce. They haven't heard piano on good point source speakers.
Why not use a single driver speaker as a very wide range driver (200-10k) and have a woofer augment the bass and a ribbon take over above 10k?
that is what zu audio basically does its a great idea
Adding a bass driver to a full range doing mids and high is an old, well established trick. Check out the Acoustic Research AR-1 - from 1954. Though I think the crossover frequency was somewhat higher, around 500 cycles or something.
Adding a super tweeter is also not that uncommon, though I think it often does more harm than good (comb filtering).
The required distance between the midrange and the tweeter to maintain phase coherency is reverse proportional to the crossover point, and it's almost impossible to do at 10kHz.
@@westelaudio943 no actually it's the opposite that makes the zu audio speakers good. The woofer is doing bass mids and some highs with the super tweeter being crossed over to just the highs. This allows the crossover to be very minimal and thus you can use fewer parts and just add a filter to send the highs to the super tweeter. Because the woofer is doing almost everything the sound is very coherent. The woofer is in its happy place and the magic happens.
In the opposite way having the woofer handle mids and highs while adding a bass driver you may get better extension but worse sound. Woofers don't usually do well on highs the bigger they are. The highs will tend to beam more and you lose sparkle. Also the crossover becomes more complex. And to make it high quality you need more money.
@@westelaudio943 Thanks. I actually owned (inherited) a pair of AR 2A and 2AX while I was in college. I understand the challenge with comb filtering but I suspect it’s more theoretical than practical. More than one full range enthusiast has happily mated a small ribbon with the full range.
@@V1ralB1ack
Sorry, the full range is doing mids and highs of course. I think you misread my sentence or it was too ambiguous.
It uses a 12" woofer which Henry Kloss designed himself, in the first proper sealed (acoustic suspension) cabinet. Mids and treble are done by an Altec 755a full-range.
Once i tried single driver speakers i could never go back..
Same here! :)
..not good match with the room.. then go for Lyngdorf 1120 or 2170 with room correction.
I do agree with you. I am however amused by one of the adamant statements about high frequencies you make in a comment.
That is not unusual among audiophiles who invests countless hours and/or hard earned money on their darling (!) project. Like me. 😊
My experience differ when I comes to the parasitic wizzer cone. I just don’t like it. It does not handle dynamics and higher volume levels* well and I rather miss that kind of high frequency extension.
Please check your own preferred listening level with a dB-meter or dB-meter app on your phone.
Hehe. That’s why I enjoy the 10Y, 45 or 46-tube based amplifier systems. Have a reality check before you salivate over Wilson, Krell et consortes
(*above 85-90dB)
So true, above 85-90dB or so, single drivers, even the best start to show distortion in the high frequency. Even the ones without whizzer cones.... ;) Average levels or quiet listening, I often find myself in a blissful state with them.
@@realworldaudio We may have developed extra sensitivity for anomalies when committing ourselves to the small amplifier and analytical filter less speakers 😊
I am shocked about the HiFi-industry’s proclivity to favour complex solutions. A sure way to forever search the way out of the audio equivalent of the Minos cave.
I do however like the red thread you supply for the soon-to-be initiated.
@@HansJonsson1235 Thank you Hans!! ✨✨👍 I think the industry is fixated on complexity because it's better for the sales. While they are pushing the loudness wars, most people in fact wants to listen at normal volumes... (with a few notable exceptions who want 100+dB SPL, but those are not the bulk of adiophiles, yet the exception). Only going crazy loud needs complexity.... while normal levels benefit tremendously from simplicity. Also, with simplicity one can soon find a balanced system that stops the upgrade / purchase itch. While with complexity you never reach absolute satisfaction... extreme SPL by default forbids the mind peace and comfort....
Why don't you give us a "sonic glimpse" of your system playing? A stereo recording with your cellphone would suffice.
I have many recordings up on the channel already. Here's one with the Fc8-Voigt pipe: ua-cam.com/video/PupYXgX6sh4/v-deo.html
If you know how to properly pair a subwoofer, a subwoofer pair to be more precise, 80% of the negative aspect you talk about with the upper bass region will completely disappear. BTW, my audiophile membership was taken away because there's not a single Diana Krall recording in my connection.
LOL, I only listen to her and other typical audiofile courses when friends put them on in audio get togethers! :) My license should be taken away as well. ✨✨👍👍 Cheers, Janos