What is Scale Creep?
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- Опубліковано 27 бер 2024
- Scale creep, much like Detail creep both have a similar issue where the sizes of models increase over time to accommodate..more detail. This can be very frustrating for the average hobbyist who is looking to just get things painted and ready for the table
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Scale creep can also refer to a creep who is into scales
Ha ha ha 😂 - Cal
Argonian lovers
@@averageeughenjoyer6429 I am argonian lovers
We are called scalies, a furry sub-category
@@Scarletraven87 you'll all be purged for heresy in the end.
Scale creep is what GW said they were done with, along with rules bloat, oh, and don't forget their "we won't be killing off your first born" stance. 3d printers are really cold they all seem to go BRRRRR
The best way to solve scale creep: only use the new firstborn marines, and use Bolt Action minis for Imperial Guard. Just like that everything works
That would be cool - Cal
The best way to fix scale realism is to play bolt action but using Flames of War models. The weapon ranges seem far more accurate at that level.
The best way is to not bother with space marines
@@M50A1repent hertic
@@joshuabirdsall8440 No, sorry. I'm not 300 years old with a nostalgia addiction
I love scale creep, because they are so fricking tiny already. The only range I enjoy painting are Orks, because I like infantry and they are big enough to be painted without being a chore.
Whenever I touch a regular human I want to put a bullet into my head, because their arms are a thick as an Orls thumb
I totally get what you are saying, but do you think you would say the same thing if there was less detail with some of the models? - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow Thanks for the answer.
The problem is not the detail, but the seize. A naked arm of a cultist can have as little detail as it wants, I don't manage to do any satisfying shading/highlighting outside of dunking it in nuln oil or drybrushing
Fair enough ☺️ - Cal
I collected skavens for years before realizing that my love of every bit of their lore wasn't worth the feeling that the model I pick up could crumble in my hands of I don't pay enough attention.
If I were to go back to the hobby today I would collect something that is at least as bulky as an ork.
I am thinking armored corps but deathskulls
You're the first Ork player I've ever seen who hasn't described painting 100+ Boyz as a chore
True scale is also about model proportions where models that are heroic scale have more chunky proportions to emphasize features and make them easier to handle and work with while truely true scale models can have some concerningly delicate limbs and such in model form
Unless your working in larger scale, a true scale 32mm mini and 28mm heroic might have details that are the same size.
The 28mm has a huge sword an big belt buckles but in 32mm there normal details.
This is why I love the new primaris models and love seeing people use them as just updated models for firstborn and not running them as primaris, 40k always had this issue where the guardsmen model was a centimeter taller than the space marine models and that ALWAYS drove me crazy.
I know it drove more than just you crazy - Cal
I use firstborn models and just steal the Primaris rules.
Honestly the only problem with Primaris I have is gw is over greedy on the conversion kits for the chapters. If they were all the black templars or dark angels ones it be okay but god the deathwatch and other chapters are a pain if you don’t go third party.
Why would use the newer models and decide to use the worse rules of a different unit? Could just use intercessors with their original rules and just imagine they are first born if it helps you sleep at night. (Joking, I’m sure you sleep well 😂)
As a guy who refuses the walking heresy that is Primaris...until the Lion gives us his opinion on it, I have always been bothered by the small scale of the marines. Also, aren't the new IG taller than their old models?
Scale creep is the not very subtle way of making older models obsolete and lowering the value of the oversaturated used miniature market. Same with increasing the base size.
Well you know what you're not? You're not wrong - Cal
Base size was a must
Many space marines were bigger than their 25mm base (like the librarian) and in points a marines is more expensive thus it ahould have a bigger footprint
Scale creep predates GW and Warhammer. 1:72 used to be popular for pre TTRPG wargames, 70's D&D minis were usually 24mm, then 25mm, slowly bumped up to 28mm and now 28mm heroic, basically 30. 24mm lead guys look like kids next to modern minis.
Measurements also shifted from feet to eyes (Napoleonics wargaming had lots of big hats) to top of head.
Warhams was definitely a big driver of this though just not the whole problem
I believe you, there is a reason it's called creep and not jump - Cal
Funniest things this extends to even other paintable models, Mcfarlanes figures, especially their 40k and DC runs have such wild scales for being only 7"
Yeah... the main reason we dislike it is because it throws everything else out everytime something becomes bigger - Cal
In my opinion GW has a problem of trying to add more unnecessary detail into their minis especially their rank and file. People cry for prettier models but then. Whine when the price per model goes up or they are monopose that have small fragile bits that break easily.
It's why i enjoy simple sculpts because its easier to get painted and on the table sooner
That's what we talk about in detail creep short - Cal
"Lol 90's so wild Liefield is foul for those skinny ankles tracing and excess pouches"
*cooks up AI, zbrush, skinny ankles, tactical rock, adds pouches*
Detail should not add up so much, yes it takes more work but technology has lowered cost of design and once impleemented a 5 primaris sprue should not be much more expensive than a firstborn
The problem is the question where it should end.
The Space Marines got bigger, than they also need larger vehicles. Custodes are now same size as Astartes, that shouldn't be this way, the next set's getting a head or two taller. The brave Guardsman now look like children, what a shame, let's make them also taller, almost as giant as the Marines...
This kind of game continues endlessly till you need to rent a hall to play the simplest of games.
I don’t think making power armor super humans bigger than normal humans is that big of a deal. The vehicles is another story but I would still enjoy if it were done. It’s not a cheap hobby to begin with so, fuck it. One of Warhammer 40k’s appeals is its epic size and gravity
I STILL LOVE MY FIRSTBORN BEAKIE MODELS FROM 1991...
(Im also 45, and have basically bought GW corporate at least a FEW MERCEDES BY NOW)....
AMEN, brother. The entire 1st company of my custom chapter is comprised of MKVI marines from the RTB01 boxed set.
LMAO haven't we all 🤣GW execs are living large thanks to our wallets
That’s some sneaky fucking editing right there, driving up the views ;)
I think that primaris marines are only taller in the lore because their models are taller than the most recent firstborn models so to have them fighting side by side needed some explaining
For sure they said that because bele call had the OG legion gene seed he was able to basically recreate how tall + strong the crusade/heresy were marines were(minus the new organs) That's why the Imperial fists can spit acid again as they lost it over the years due to implantation processes more rushed over the years & depredation of the geneseed I
Lol, the convention of asking questions and answers reminds me of a kids show, like I don't know, Grimdark Dora the Explorer or something. It's amusing guys, thanks!
For some reason that element of these videos kind of irks me lol. But no hate, they put out very informative content. It's a "me" problem for sure, but it does prevent me from subbing, when I typically would for this kind of content. But they seem to be doing fine without me!
Like what you guys are doing here. More and more folks coming to the hobby. Folks that haven't worked with metal or resin. Ty you two. Your adorable
The real 'scale creep' is the guy who spends too much time in the reptile house at the zoo. Like, a noticeable and problematic amount of time.
I thought it said sales creep and this was gonna be a video about GW upping the prices like there's no tomorrow
scale creep is cash grab
Oh no the Company is trying to make us buy their products!
@dgoodfellow234 Yeah but making older products obsolete isn't the way to do it
I can't wait til they scale creep them to being life sized statues
LEGO is also experiencing it with their City line of vehicles. Started as 4 wide bricks to 6+ these days :'D
Everyone wants DETAILLLLL ❤️
The old metal marines were tiny, I still have a few lurking around,, I'm glad that they upscaled because you get more detailed models that are not as frustrating to paint.
And then when you play a game, "long range" is shorter than the scale distance I can throw a tennis ball
Scale creep just means that those smaller models can get behind cover more easily.
That's one way to look at it ha ha ha - Cal
primaris are just an excuse to slowly remove the older marines miniatures go obsolete and force Space Marine players, the largest group of 40k players having to buy new minis
I think that the current size of the Guardsmen and other human like creatures is very good. They already have better proportions and details than the old ones, and if they would have even more it would extremely hard to paint hordes of them. The pauldrons, armor and helmets are perfect.
This feels like those audios you listen in English class in a native spanish speaking country
this can explains Firstborns space marines being fully replaced by Primaris ones
Why increase the size of the Imperial Guard? They were perfect at 28mm when comparing them to Primaris marines.
Scaling them at 32mm just defeats the purpose.
Grey knights being as tall as a dwarf:
Big oof - Cal
Those are some beautiful salamanders
I love that it easier to paint
I think this is not a bad thing as long a the trend does not proportionally continue (I.e 1 meter tall intercessors in 20 years) and as long as the actual relative sizes of models are respected (I.e a guardsman isn’t as tall as a space marine). Some of the older models while incredibly detailed and creative were sort of “compact” in my opinion, slightly larger models gives the designer more palette to work with imo
and that's part of the problem, isn't it? It's the frogs in a pot problem. If we were able to notice it it wouldn't be a problem - Cal
Remember when scale was 1/60 for every unit?
Make the marines bigger and stronger
Warhammer has an odd relationship to scale creep, and many people seem to misconstrue it vastly. If you compare eldar, guardsmen or mechanicus to the models we had 20 years ago, they are not only better proportioned but a fair bit slimmer and smaller overall. Scale Creep would only be applicable to where the same model or character becomes bigger and bigger, or when a company such as Warlord (which I love...) suddenly make a 13mm range which people try to make compatible with existing 11mm ranges and so on. Primaris marines aren't scale creep really, are they? As you say, they were under-scaled before, and not they are correctly scaled to the rest of the game.
I love my older models being smaller its easier to hide.
the worst I've seen was the age of darkness set where the brand new MKVI models are noticeably smaller than the brand new praetor. how do you release two models at the exact same time and screw up the scale so badly?
Because the praetor is standing on a tactical rock
Scale creep has annoyed me at times truthfully. I play Horus Heresy and first born marines are numerous.
Yet the new Scout Marines that came in a kill team box, are much taller and wider than the Horus Heresy marines.
So a scout marine being taller than a fully armored first born marine is just weird
Only seems to be GW that have this issue...
First thing I learned in educational entertainment: Don't talk to your audience like they are braindead.
Some people don't know these terms and are new to the hobby - Cal
It's not a theory. I predicted Primaris were going to come out as soon as Stormcast eternals came out.
The eternals were "truescale" marine sized and people were buying them just to use in conversions for spacemarines.
I called it while I was in an official Warhammer store and the manager insisted that it wasn't true because he was still trying to sell the old marines and if people found out about the upcoming Primaris they would stop buying firstborn all together.
Just days ago GW did a range refresh on the stormcast eternals and straight up said "We're replacing them".
If they had handled marines like that people would be extremely pissed. But instead GW ruined their own universe's consistency.
Where can I i get that female miniature at the end? Looks cool
By joining our membership at the elite tier - Cal
But man do the primaris looks soo much better than the firstborns.
I truly, truly don’t have an issue with scale creep. I feel like the plastic moulds GW uses should go the level of detail that allows larger models to look absolutely fantastic. The prices are wack, but the actual models are completely sick.
Orks have got the opposite issue, ghaz is canonically 28 feet tall but on tabletop hes almost as short as guilliman
Me who bases every miniature I have on 32mm
If gw actually did the smart thing and did a complete scale, model and rule refresh at 10th editions start then so many issues would be sorted.
Sadly gw does not care about the smart thing and only cares about cost.
My Cataphron has a wider torso than a primaris in power armour. And they are supposed to be made from baseline humans, aren't they? It bugs me.
I think since they're servitors they've basically been pumped with hormones like cattle to better accept those huge weapons i'd say
Watchmen should not be ob this list. The watchmen should not have a sequel.
I always prefer 32 when 3d printing for more details
They're not true scale. They're truer scale. True scale is what is in the art
Scale is way off in 40k, ghazgkull is a good example, 18 foot tall in lore but only a few inches taller than guilliman on tabletop
Never mind the scale creep. How do you get 10 space marines in a MK1 rhino. Technically it would be 11 cause of the driver. Anyways. Space marines awesome
Larger models, more detail, more paints sold on average. $$$ raise prices, give cheaper quality, less paint over time.
So other than the Primaris Marines, is there any other example of scale creep in WH40K? Because 1 step does not constitute creeping.
They weren't so much creep as a jump and the answer is pretty much... all of GW history from the 90s onward. Sorry we can't be more specific but you can look into it yourself - Cal
I compared rogue trader, 7th edition starter box marines, recent tactican one and deathwatch vetarans, and they the more recent they are the taller they are.
Also they refreshed the imperial guard with taller units, the new chaos space marines too
They are increasing the scale of everything, all the time
Thats not true scale u misuse that word scale isnt height its proportions such as arm go body ratios
If you want to know about scale creep, look at the Eldar Avatar...
You're not wrong - Cal
The theory about primaris being a range refresh sounds right because it’s incredibly dumb in the lore
I am not going comment on the lore... for reasons - Cal
The whole of WH40K is pretty dumb, especially if you take ten minutes to give it ANY critical thought. So, anything that makes any kind of sense like some amalgam-brain super genius actually uses normal human creativity and innovative mentality to upgrade and advance their technology would read as total BS.
As bad as it is in the lore and as much as it may be a cash grab range refresh, damn they look so good
I love the primaris marines as models, but by god, they couldnt have botched the lore harder
I mean its been YEARS so it doesnt matter anymore, but they really should have just have had them as updated models of the OG marines. I get that it would have been weird to see them next to their squatty predecesors... But have you SEEN eldar armies? My god, NECRONS back in the day when they refreshed were a patchwork of the cowboy posed dumbones and the skellynators for a long long while. Its a 40+ year old game. Its alriiiight.
Hell, the new CSM models arent even primaris mostly and are noticeably larger than the older ones (check the new 'Zerkers) and literally nobody cared. Better models is always a good thing!!!
Pretty much what I always said, I like the models but hate the lore - Cal
My OG Terminators from 1992 look pathetic against the Terminators of today. :(
I don't think it's "creep" if it took 30+ years.
warhammer are supposed to be 1:64 but they are getting closer to 1:42 . I dont do that much minis but i'm afraid in the 10 next year regular humans will be 1:35 and space marine 7-8cm tall
Just give me 1/100 scale and I'll be happy
SHPESH MUREEEEEENNNSSS
Hmm...
A cynic might argue that it's a rather cheeky way to make older models LOOK worse, thus "encouraging" players to buy the newer models so they don't feel like their army looks bad next to a new one.
40k is as much as a fashion show as it is a wargame, and GW are very aware of that.
The game and lore really aren't the main draw in 40k, GW are a model making company first
You wanna see scale creep? Look at abaddon that man leaped not creeped.
Oh yeah him and Bela'kor both - Cal
@@WhatareyouPaintingnow i can understand belakor, deamons can appear in any form and the greater the power the bigger they can be. But Abbadon grew like Gazkul after getting shot in the skull.
Well you know what you're not, you're not wrong - Cal
I like the idea of primaris I just don't like the execution
Larger but not cooler
An epidemic, and the reason modern (post-1900s) GW is invalid in every way.
How about f space marines though? I'm loving that amazon that can crush that puny alpha wannabe.
we have the tech to make models more detailed
modern models arnt suffering from scalecreep
its that they are display pieces
and you want your fancy display piece to be big enough to be noticed
its not supposed to be a unit in an army
"GW did nothing wrong" cope
i was upset with ted lasso, it was a good show that showed building relationships and fighting for better, then the drastic other side with ptsd and mental health. Then it just turned into a diversity shit show.
Wrong video?
@@potatolord9715 wrong comment?
Minis should be true scale size no matter how hard or easy is to paint them. Period.
But big hands?
Ngl i wish that we had smaller point games with stronger ALL units and cadian gotta be in size of space marine but space marine will be even larger. I'm 8 months in this hobby but before i went to the hobby i thought that the smallest models are like Custodes/Orcs lmao.
As you can guess i like elite armies.
But yeah, primaris marines are great, first born are cute of course
This video literally did nothing.
No comparisons, no examples, no suggestions,… just pointless banter
Breh chill
We explained what scale creep and true scale is - Cal
your comment does literally nothing
Bro your were nothing..just like your comment😂
it's a short you god damn lobotomite
Larger and more details 🥲. I will never finish a army