Pastor Jeff | Faith & Reason With Latter-day Saints
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- You can sign up to Jeff's free summit June 11th - 20th here: www.HelloSaints...
In this episode Hayden and Jackson discuss faith and reason with evangelical Pastor and host of the Hello Saints UA-cam Channel, Jeff McCullough.
The Stick of Joseph UA-cam channel seeks to make the Book of Mormon accessible to all ages by making engaging, entertaining and informative content.
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Im glad you guys are having the conversation. I dont see why others have an issue with Pastor Jeff. I served an LDS mission for two years, doing the exact same thing as what others claim he is doing, so even if those are his main intentions (which I dont believe) I can't say anything without hypocrisy. Regardless of his intentions, he his trying to bring others to Christ in his own way. Regardless of his intentions, we can learn from the things we may not agree with. He has made it abundantly clear from the beginning that he does not intend to convert. And our testimonies (regardless of denomination) can be strengthened by learning from others. You dont have to believe what he says, or like his intentions (true or not) to learn more about what YOU truly believe or not believe.
I’m glad to hear you say this. I’ve been saying the same thing and find it very interesting to see how much LDS opposition there is to just hearing Pastor Jeff. It looks bad to hide or run from a peaceful conversation, like one is allergic to truth. He’s awesome and a very kind man. Super glad they hosted him.
@@mikespage0123You're not even a true Christian. As big a phony as this false pastor.
Your weakness is showing.
@@WatchingwaitingG2DLOL 😂 your the one who is scared he'll convince you Mormonism isn't Christian.
Cause he’s doing it for money, likes, followers
Just finished watching this podcast... As I came to comment I have to say that I was a little bit shocked. No matter what the intent my personal opinion is that this is Christ honoring. I am very proud to see how all involved handled their own thoughts, opionions and beliefs. God wants us to sit down and not only share but to set an example of how it can be done. I believe that there was so much that was learned today. Especially the principals of love and kindness!
I’m glad to hear that Melanie! Thanks for watching!
@@thestickofjosephway to go brothers!!!!🤍✨🤍
“Who is Truth” by Dr. Ed Gantt and Dr. Jeffrey Thayne is an excellent book about faith, reason, and science from an LDS perspective. Definitely would recommend checking it out.
Snagret with the save!
I loved the topic. You three were so respectful of each other’s opinion. You all did a wonderful job expressing what you believe.
I’m not evangelical or LDS or even religious but I’m always interested in these types of conversations.
Ps. I don’t think there are any hidden agendas by any of these fine people. Thanks.
Agreed!
That's why you're not religious. You can't recognize what you live.
The subconscious is a powerful tool to the adversary
Ignore the hate my friend. The greatest commandment Christians follow is to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourselves. So any negative comments coming your way are just people forgetting to follow God’s will. Or perhaps they don’t believe and are not compelled to be loving by nature. Either way, it’s great that you have an interest in these discussions.
@mikespage0123 what religion do you belong to?
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World and you can draw nearer to Him if you read the Book of Mormon.
or farther *if* the BoM is untrue and the LDS church version of Jesus is altogether different.
@@mikespage0123Excellent point and exactly why it’s worthwhile to read it, ponder its message, seek, and knock to know if it’s true from the source of truth-God the Father in the name of Christ.
I know it’s true by the same Holy Spirit that confirms to me that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy, sacrificed Himself for my sins, was resurrected, and is my Savior, Redeemer, and Friend.
May God bless you in your faith journey and life.
@@AugmentedOptimism oh it’s definitely not true and it’s quite likely your spirit is not a godly spirit. Take a look at the characteristics of the LDS or Mormon god (not eternal, not the creator of all things, polytheistic/false gospel, etc). I’d challenge you to meet with a trained professional (pastor or therapist if needed) to untangle the idea that Mormonism is anywhere close to true.
@@mikespage0123 I hear what you’re saying, and I appreciate your concern.
You have done a good job representing important ideas from a non-LDS perspective. I do not agree with your interpretation and understanding of LDS doctrine, but still respect your opinion.
Can you explain the LDS perspective in a way that an LDS person would agree with?
@@AugmentedOptimism your founder is a false prophet, a criminal, a polygamist, a treasure digger, a liar, but the church white washed that and was not transparent. Ok if you don’t believe me, but why is the church slow to release the truth about JS? Do people in the church know there were around seven accounts of the first vision and the church doesn’t use the first or the last to my understanding? Do people know JS married a 14 year old girl? Why does the church describe her as “almost 15” in the gospel topic essays to make it sound better? Your scripture changes to dodge controversy. Example “white and wholesome” is now “pure and wholesome.” Prophets with continuing revelation (BY in particular) created church doctrine for polygamy and priesthood authority to exclude blacks, yet a later prophet denounced those practices along with blood atonement and the Adam/God theory. Why are prophets preaching messages they say they got from the Mormon god and then those same revelations are later denounced? Why were satanic symbols used on three of the first temples (SLC, Nauvoo, and Logan)? Yes the pentagram didn’t originate as a demonic symbol and was later perverted, but what an odd choice for a church to choose satanic symbols. Why are LDS always finding convenient excuses to rationalize fraudulent truth claims like the Book of Abraham translation not matching the original Egyptian papyrus, admitted by the church as “incongruent” with the original text and doesn’t even include the name Abraham. It’s a funerary text, nothing more. Compare the facsimiles to the research of any honest Egyptologist. Even the term Mormo has an evil association, although it’s not known if there’s a connection with the term Mormon. Everything in the LDS church seems like a satanic deception. False gods, false prophets, polytheism, demonic temple rituals (now denounced) comparable (possibly plagiarized) from Feeemasonry. Even the family is forever concept is a deception because some family members can’t visit each other if not in the same heavenly kingdom. I think the LDS afterlife is hell’s prison for those who followed a false prophet in Joseph Smith and did not hear or accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Sadly, Jesus will say He never knew you to Mormons. Hopefully they each have a chance now or then to repent and accept Jesus’ free gift of salvation. I’ll pray that you specifically will come to know Jesus. 🙏
I’ve certainly considered his possible motives, and the thing that has me trusting him more has to do with the Saints he chooses to interact with most often. Kurt Francum, Greg Madsen, Hayden and Jackson here, Jacob Hansen, along with BYU professors, Church Education instructors, and the Tabernacle Choir. He’s smart enough to know that he’s not changing these people’s minds. He’s not out trying to corner freshman at BYU, or other random church members. His repeated interactions with those I’ve mentioned almost inevitably strengthen the faith of Latter- day Saints, because when someone allows us to share restoration doctrines without putting us on the defensive, it is easy for Latter-day Saints to really appreciate the truth of our doctrine, when examined side by side with Jeff’s beliefs. This is not to belittle his beliefs, but it certainly reminds me and reinforces why I chose this church at age 19, rather than any other Bible believing church.
I agree...I have grown to see Pastor Jeff genuinely seeking to connect with the best of LDS voices.
Have you read the CES letter though? Or tested your own testimony? Don’t do it for me, it’s your salvation that depends upon it.
@@mikespage0123 I've read and studied the CES letter many times and it's an amateurish load of crap. I suggest reading the 3-4 good responses to the claims in the CES Letter.
@@lemjwp1756 sounds like you didn’t really investigate
@@mikespage0123 “You read it multiple times, but you didn’t come to the conclusion I wanted you to, therefore you didn’t _really_ investigate.” Really? Do you have any idea how insulting that statement was? People can come to different conclusions. We’re all humans, not robots blindly accepting data we’re fed. Have you read those responses to the CES Letter? Or have _you_ not really investigated? Must you now come to my desired conclusion?
Idk, i grew up as an evangelical, what he appears to be doing to me is called being a wolf in sheep's wool. I don't sense him trying to unite wolves and sheep, i see him trying to fit in and comfort us to pick the herd off 1 by 1.
Maybe it's just my upbringing in the Bible belt around Pastors like this who would invite people to get together from other groups in the town, and once the friendships were developed, then came the plea for our salvation and the cries for us to join his church.
Be careful with who you give a spotlight because not all people intend to use their spotlight to build up the true Kingdom of God.
LDS missionaries do the same thing though. I take the easier approach to just appreciate their faith and enjoy the conversation seeking after truth.
@mikespage0123 only missionaries don't seek discussion without claiming intent to convert
Jeff uses a lax approach to preach to lds. He claims that he does not intend to convert anyone, rather he just admires to inform others. That's why he controls the conversation even while claiming to be letting others speak their mind, yet he controls the questions and even directs the answer to fit into a pre planned response. He's great at circular conversation which is a highly narcissistic trait, and he is good at pumping up his pride and his fame and even his purpose as being truly called of God into this moment to witness unto Mormons.
What he does is let us speak. He then goes back and tells his followers, "be kind because they don't see their fault here and here, but now you know how to not be deceived".... that's literally his strategy.
He's not doing this to learn us or the restored gospel, he's trying his best to learn how to teach against it.
He acts like this interfaith dialog is great, like we need him to unite "Christians and Latter Day Saints"... that's literally what he says. He doesn't consider us to be followers of Christ. It's all in his verbal slip ups. You don't intermingle with Latter Day Saints for 2 to 3 years spending all your time and effort trying to learn all things LDS even moving to Utah to make evangelicals understand us. 88% of his subscribers are LDS.... so who is he trying to get to accept us?...... yall need to wake up and realize that he's never going to be a member of the restored church, he's going to take more people with him than he ever brings to Jesus.
100% agree with you !!!!I really felt little disappointed with this guys ... seriously I haven't see the whole video yet. but I don't feel comfortable to watch it. (period). I can't find any good in a man that trying to discredited the apostles of the Lord and Prophet and the book that can help people to get closer to God.I don't really get the point to listening or even watch it.
@@luiscastro1396 a lot of people are going to be deceived by him on both sides if they're not careful
@@curtisdecker3175You are saying that pastor Jeff does not consider us to be Christians. Do you consider Christians to have any truth at all? Or do you believe other Christians to have a falsehood when it comes to the gospel since "only we" have the truth?
Moroni is about receiving revelation from the Lord. It’s James 1:5. Yes we need to ponder. But we are not asking God for reason. We are asking for communication. For the ultimate evidence.
You must study it out in your mind first (D&C 9:8). Revelation is confirmation.
I want to speak in defense of Pastor Jeff. From what I've seen of his content and others of a different faith (or lack thereof), I believe people who have different views have often thought about their beliefs much, much more than we realize. As a Latter-day Saint myself, I do believe our Church is "the only true and living" church; that it's the only one authorized by God. But I'm certain people in other faiths have thought about their beliefs more than I have--their convictions may be stronger than my own. When looking at Pastor Jeff's strong testimony in Evangelicalism, it's easy to say that it's just a result of him being ignorant or malintentioned. But it's simply not true. We have to be aware of our biases--even if what we believe is true. (Again, I believe our church IS true). We don't have all the answers. Please don't assume he's a wolf in sheep's clothing just because you don't understand why he hasn't joined our church. People are more complicated than we know. Let's learn from each other.
Thank you! I have many LDS friends who defend me from other LDS who have attacked me for not becoming a Latter Day Saint myself, yet being a firm believer in Jesus as a Messianic Jew. I think we have to be able to agree to disagree and yet keep our friendships. We each are convinced and know our path is true. Yes this is a form of tension but it also leads to edifying dialogue.
Amen to this. The folks who throw stones (e.g. call him names, make fun of his haircut, call him a serpent, etc) and do not love their neighbor (e.g. Pastor Jeff) are simply NOT following the greatest commandment God gave us-to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbor as ourself. So, it’s just a clear sin and a need to repent when they open their eyes to that behavior. You’ll see it a lot throughout the chat on these types of videos. Anyway, I’m glad that you get it and I appreciate you for it.
@@darkforgiven360I am fascinated by the concept of what a Messianic Jew is. I only know a little bit. I sure wish I knew more. Thank you for your respectful comment here today, so few people are actually respectful, especially when it comes to the LDS faith. We all need to be respectful of others faiths.
What I find interesting is that those who don't believe in God because it sounds preposterous are actually putting parameters on the possibilities of the universe. They are actually saying that if it isn't logical to their point of view and their understanding, and that it means that there cannot be anything out there in the universe that they don't understand.
Why isn't it possible that there is a being in the universe who has the knowledge and ability to create a world to put His children on in order to teach them?
There is a cool mathematical Theorem called the incompleteness theorem. It basically says that something can be true, but never proved. So basically math proves that math can’t prove anything even though you can write a logical proof that something is true. Faith is an eternal principle and we will need it throughout eternity.
Also, fun fact there is a mathematical proof for Gods existence called Godels ontological proof. It is abstract and I used chat GPT to help me understand it.
Mark 16: 13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Let’s not minimize the importance of the 3rd member of THE Godhead in revealing truth unto us. We are spiritual beings having a mortal experience.
Joseph Smith was not a New Earth advocate. He was and Old Earther and figured out the math at 1,000 years being one day of creation. He arrived at almost 3 billion years old!! Not bad in those days for a non scientific prophet! :>)
where did you hear that? (genuinely curious)
@@LindyLime How frustrating!! I've been trying several times to send you the link and/or the title but YT won't allow it and takes down the post. So... just type into YT John S Lewis and you'll see it right away. It's a 28 min video. The info you seek about Joseph Smith is about 2/3 through I think.
@@godsoffspring4195 thanks! Yeah I've had youtube do that kind of thing to me too
How did you get 3 Billion?
@@jay6562 I said almost 3B. If memory suits... I think it was about 2.8 billion. Two point something, anyway. Watch the video I suggested to Lindy to watch. It explains everything there.
Pascals wager :) @ 39:39 Pascal argues that, given the potential outcomes, it is more rational to believe in God because the potential gain (eternal happiness) vastly outweighs the potential loss (little or nothing).
I think about it in a way that most don't. Imagine your exploring a world. You have a map that shows what has been explored already. But there is more to explore. You don't know how to navigate the unknown but there is one with you who knows how to create a new map. This is your cartographer. Or your prophet. He is able to continue drawing the map that ultimately leads you to the end of your spiritual journey in the world you're navigating.
Pastor Jeff’s ministry is to convert Latter-day Saints to his version of Evangelical Christianity. He’s not here to learn so he can join our Church. It’s a long-con and priestcraft with a smile and nice hair. If he were acting as a bridge for Latter-day Saints to Evangelicals, he would be more useful, but it’s more of a bridge for Evangelicals to minister to Latter-day Saints. Platforming him seems like a waste of time.
If that's his purpose to convert LDS to Evangelical then I don't think it's working. Every time I listen to him explain the tenets of his faith I feel an increased reassurance of my faith. I feel grateful for the gospel that makes sense and reveals so many truths to us that the Protestant world does not have. And I know there are many others who have made similar comments. When I say my prayers I find them to be more fervent in thanksgiving for the gospel.
Just because he isn't interested in joining our church doesn't mean he has sinister motives.
I absolutely love hearing Pastor Jeff and I love his kind approach to LDS members. He embodies the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself and I applaud that for sure.
@@cheyaweber704it’s working on some
@@spideyN8Rhe is interested in taking people off of the covenant path and into the captivity of apostate Christianity. I’m sure in his own eyes they are not sinister
You did a great job speaking with Jeff and answering his questions. Beautiful explanations!
Amazing! I once at work sat around with a Mennonite, Baptist, Mormon, and Catholic and just asked questions. It was wonderful and this reminds me of that experience! Love this and I love watching Hello Saints!!
I will say this about Pastor Jeff. He is willing to listen and to try to understand things better than I have seen with most Evangelicals, and I respect him for that.
he's a smiling snake, bro
Christ rose from the grave. Thus he has an immortally physical body. Thomas touched him and felt the prints in his hands and feet.
Keep shining in Faith and await in the Lord's timing. His ways are higher, knowing what is best for us, we are all His children ❤️ and 🙏
I love the last scripture in Mosiah that was stated. The world needs this more than ever!!! Mosiah Ch 4
The more I see of this pastor the less I like him and feel he is trying to pull people away, especially with his 'if you want to leave lds come to my church speel a year back. I will hope this video is not such an attempt
I find it’s a lot easier to accept him and love him as my neighbor than to harbor feelings of conspiracy. He’s a great guy whether you agree with him or not. He has a great unifying approach.
I mean he openly said it, I would not consider that a conspiracy. Still willing to give him a chance though.
@@Luirru55that’s good, we should always be open and transparent and willing to have conversation like this. Especially in kindness
I love listening to Pastor Jeff. I don't agree with him on a lot of things, but I love his efforts to share his perspective.
Great video I’m lds , I think you guys are awesome, and Pastor Jeff as well , thank you all
What's your guys's thought on Chief Menigah... Do you think you'll ever have him on your show? I think it would be huge for your movie. He does have connections to the Jewish culture that could connect some dots from Lehi. Just saying 🤩
I thought I heard him say he has or has access to ancient scrolls from his people. That might codify those dots you mention. :>)
The scripture says...If it be wisdom that you should receive it. It is NOT always wisdom in God that everyone is ready to receive it. If you don't receive a spiritual confirmation it doesn't mean it isn't true. You must be prepared for God to reveal the truth to you, thus why it is important to read and ponder. God knows if we are ready to commit and follow and he is not going to give confirmation if we are not. If he did, it could damage our progress of investigation and preparation of the spiritual blessing of the confirmation of truth. Why give a gift to someone who you know is just going to throw it away or mock you for sharing it.
Yes exactly! Got to humble ourselves like never before, loose the pride, desire it strongly, build up to it, reason it out, search!
When PJ accused Jeffery R. Holland of blasphemy I just can’t watch anything with PJ.
He’s not building bridges.
He’s sowing seeds of doubt.
Agreed. When one of his videos pop up, the spirit always gives me a little nudge to move on to something else.
Which video?
@@HausOfStitches It was a reaction to General Conference video.
One of the most intellectual and awesome conversations I’ve heard in a long time concerning religion & reason/science!! Great stuff!
Glad you liked it! Make sure to share!
This was a great conversation, thank you.
Sorry boys, I've watched everything else. You have done But I see his face and I hear the voice of pastor Jeff and I'm not watching this one. (Added after) Sorry I clicked on this video by accident before I saw who was with you honestly. I've been going to the temple every week for the last 15 years. I know the Lord's words and I know Him and this guy has ILL intentions. Anyone that's watched one of my channels can see that I truly Love people and the Spirit being around them feeds my soul. But the presence of this guy even online makes me feel sick to be completely honest. I've been around worse then him but I can discern this. It's a gift I've been given. I can't NOT see it and feel it
***PS on an added note. Something that I see truly building bridges, because I experienced it at the Conference in October 2023, is The Chosen series. That's why we share it on our channel. We met so many good people and that also includes Dallas and Amanda Jenkins and his parents and daughter and the behind the scenes hosts and cast members like Amber, Brandon, Noah, Derrel Eves, and about 6 others. Such great Spirits. So many faiths coming together
I’m sorry you feel that way! It’s a great conversation!
I get why you might think that but I think Pastor Jeff is re humanizing Latter Day Saints. It could lead to many evangelicals making covenants.
Agreed!
@@vincentorr507he’s making $$ on UA-cam by not being LDS.
@@vincentorr507 It goes past thinking to knowledge
You do have to set aside your doubts (not real logic) in order to have faith.
Hayden and Jackson did a great job explaining answers to Jeff’s questions today. I am impressed boys! I learned much about the OT and NT from Evangelical teachers and their doctrines provided a few comparable knowledge for me to dissect questions about the gospel of Jesus Christ. It increased my testimony for the truth taught by my LDS faith is rock solid. Even so, I am not happy with what I believe are deceptive methods used by the pastor by which he smoothly compares ❤😂some Bible verse to convince people our theology is insufficient . He’s very smooth in what he’s doing and thus provides off ramps for members who really don’t know or understand their LDS theology. I hope my babbling makes sense.
It does. Too many members are showing their lack of perception. The pastor is a deceiver.
Pastor Jeff does a good job loving his neighbor (LDS) as himself, God’s greatest commandment to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.
@@mikespage0123Yes he’s a good guy and I believe he’s very kind but the fact remains he’s convinced our theology about Jesus Christ is incorrect, and thus using coercion to lead us onto the off ramp away from the gospel. I’ve heard from numerous evangelicals that Jeff is the reason they are joining the LDS church after listening to his explanations of God, Jesus Christs and The Holy Ghost.
@@binmyrtmind the off ramps are plentiful with or without Pastor Jeff my friend. Read the CES letter for example.
@@mikespage0123 Oh Mike, I’ve read the nonsense which makes no difference to the Gospel. It’s true, and I have a difficult time finding out people can’t figure out when things aren’t perfect. Look, this is an ongoing restoration by the Lord of which He counsels and instructs His prophets which are left to implement His plan as they understand it. Sometimes things are done and may need improvement or fixes. Using our common sense to understand ought to easy.
I get why you'd feel the need to rationalise why you don't have pre marital sex for example like you said, to give some logical reasons to people that don't grasp spiritually and covenant wise why you follow a commandment. But sometimes i feel we don't even need to do that. I often find it's like casting pearls before swine (not that anyone that is not a member is swine). Just that they don't understand our reasoning. I just leave it that its a commandment we have and i either choose to follow it or i don't. I don't really feel the need to explain myself to others that don't understand why i do it. But in some cases you can discern when its nesessary absolutely.
From my perspective, i was in remote area fire fighting. Basically ask i can try to relate it to is the US hotshots. Get dropped in by chopper and hand tool line all day. Prepping property, structures and making containment lines in remote country. That environment was very boisterous. Drinking was huge. And so i struggled with my faith. Those that new my faith poked at it sometimes and so i found trying to logically explain a reason with them didn't work and made me feel like i was trying to almost discredit the spiritual reason why i follow and give it a worldly reason why. Which didn't work for me. Because there is no reason why i would or should follow it if i didn't believe or it wasn't true. No reason. So i just didn't cast the pearls before those that didn't out wouldn't understand anymore. Eventually though, i did lose my conviction. Not my faith. And would participate in drinking culture. Stopped going to church and this became a struggle for me being in this environment. My wife told me it needed to stop, i had a young son and baby on the way. I made the decision to leave this work and change career. I repented and sought help for a now problem with drinking i couldn't manage myself. Eventually kicking the habit. But i wonder if my decision to try logically rationalise with my raft team, planted the seed of complacency within me that led me to stray because i almost in a way, discounted the spiritual reason to others because i felt it wasn't a good enough reason to leave it at that. Just my thoughts.
I agree with this doctrinally, and I imagine Jackson would too. It is clear that God demands obedience based solely on love and single-mindedness to His glory. If your motivation for obedience is based on external rationalisms, to a degree your obedience is in vain and subjective.
It is very difficult to argue against brute force obedience with a singular motivation to love and worship God. Obedience based on external rationalism breaks down easily with certain actions that are subjectively sinful based on intent. It is also impossible to obey for external reasons if God were to give you a commandment with no intrinsic value other than he has the sole intent to see whether or not you would obey.
For example, I think the Word of Wisdom has a very low degree of scientific or external logical support, and I’m not convinced it ever will. However, I think there is very high value in obeying the Word of Wisdom based on sheer love of God an brute force obedience. The criticism of “blind obedience” is very hypocritical and vain.
I think it’s acceptable to speculate about the rationality of commandments, but it’s more important to admit that your reasons for obedience are insufficient and have no value unless you ultimately accept brute force obedience based solely on love for God and faith.
@natedawg2020 i concur wholeheartedly with what you have said.
Woke up to find this and Enjoyed it so much!!! Thank you.. ♥️
1:09:20 Not sure I understand the reasoning here for why this would discount open scripture. If the logic is that scripture closed with Jesus, then wouldn't we lose most of the New Testament? All scripture comes from God, but I cannot find a good reason for why the New Testament is the last scripture we would get. It seems reasonable to me that God would continue giving us scripture to guide us.
The is no logical/reasonable explanation to indoctrination/tradition. To me tradition is a very dangerous things. Of course there is such a thing as good tradition
So evangelicals believe God can reveal himself other ways and with ongoing revelation, just not through scripture? Why so limited? He’s always had prophets and mouth pieces so why not nowadays? I feel like we need it more today than ever before in this extremely complex ever changing world we’re living in. Reasonable to me he would continue to speak the same way he has throughout all of time. Why would the Savior’s 1st coming change that? So we needed prophetic voices before his coming and while here but not after? It just doesn’t make sense. We are living at a different time and in unique circumstances so why not now? It just seems narrow minded.
Yes. Luther who got made at the Catholic church and its 1500 year monopoly on Christianity so made up his own religion based on his teenage rebellion and neuroses. Luther wanted to sin without consequence so make behavior irrelevant to salvation. Just faith. If Catholics had saints along the way who transmitted oral truths, Luther said ‘no they did not. Show me in the bible alone!”
So you have to understand Luther who made up all this faith alone. Bible alone stuff. And evangelicals follow ignoring horrific skip in bible verses that disagree and how behavior does matter.
So not interested in hearing this guy
Yet you are here! Welcome 😊
WORD
same here ... little disappointed with these guys today
Nobody asked you to listen to the entire hour plus.
ten ways God speaks and where they are mentioned in the bible
1 through the Bible
2 with a whisper
3 through others, as messengers
4 through wise council
5 through the Holy Spirit
2 Timothy 3:16-17
1 Kings 19:12
Acts 9:10-18
2 Samuel 12
Proverbs 19:20
John 14:26
6 dreams, visions, & prophecy
7 natural manifestations
8 supernatural manifestations
9 thoughts
10 through circumstances
Romans 1:18-20
Exodus 3:1-4
Amos 4:13
Jonah 1-4
Acts 2:17
Judges 6:37-40
Acts 9:1-5
Numbers 22:1-35
(first, being swallowed by a great fish, and second when a vine grew up to shade Jonah and then the vine withered)
I really enjoyed this discussion! Respectful, open dialogue like this between differing belief systems is so lacking nowadays!
I wish that when we talk about faith and reason we could talk about all the uncertainties in life that require trust, belief and confidence.
Hayden (hopefully i spelled that right) I think you maybe be a General Authority someday!
The concept of trying to separate prayer and the sense of truth from the scriptures, and replacing them with reason and science, may not be the best approach. Jesus preached to people with limited education and without access to books, a situation common throughout antiquity. The important task is to discern light from darkness-if eyes perceive light, if a place emanates light, and if people are happy and practice faith with love and peace, then God is present, and that is the evidence. The idea that the Bible is entirely rational and logical-how does this align with reality? Reading the stories of the Bible and comparing them with scientific knowledge can offer perspective. God manifests, lives, illuminates, and testifies of Himself and His work; this is the ultimate truth: that He lives and that the Holy Spirit is real, here and now. This is the miracle.
When the angle asked Adam why he offered sacrifice unto the Lord?Adam said, "I know not, but the Lord commanded,Faith in every foot steps, doubt not every thing telling us that there is a loving, living God, ❤and prayers
Entropy is in Newton's second law of Thermodynamics.
Consider the possibility that there is a countervailing force which increases complexity, order, and unity. A law of intelligence's maybe.
It’s not just our heart the Holy Ghost speaks to:
D&C 8:2-3 “Yea, behold, I will tell you in your MIND and in your HEART, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart. Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation.”
Doctrine and Covenants 11:13 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my Spirit, which shall enlighten your MIND, which shall FILL YOUR SOUL WITH JOY;”
The Lord gives us two witnesses, not just one. Our MIND (logic, reason, sense, enlightenment) and our HEART (feelings but deeper; a sense of truth, justice, love, goodness and peace). This is in line with the Lord’s eternal law of witnesses: 2 Corinthians 13:1 “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.”
By the way, great conversation you had!
To quote Pastor Jeff, "...we don't believe in ongoing Revelation through additional scriptures or through revelators and seers which is something that that exists within a Latter-day Saint Paradigm nor do we necessarily believe in the office of a prophet. Jesus is the ultimate office of king of high priest and of prophet, he fulfills all three of those things so where he sits in that office there might be certain functions of prophetic Revelation or Holy Spirit Revelation but Christ still sits above all of that." Latter-day Saints believe Christ is the Head, the ultimate source, the King, and leader of our church. I'm curious, Jeff, if you believe there were prophets and high priests in the Old Testament? And, if so, why were they needed? Even then Christ was the God of this world and the King, so why did they have or need prophets?
Before Christ died he called Peter to be a prophet, seer, and revelator. Why would He do that if he was going to be the high priest and prophet of the Church after His death? There were 12 apostle before and after Christ's death and resurrection. When some of the apostles were put to death others were called to take their place. When all the Apostles and Prophets had been put to death, Christ's church was no longer found on the earth; thus the need for the Restoration of the Gospel with prophets, seers, and revelators and with Christ as the Head.
pastor jeffs a snake, id rather not give him any airtime
Fortunately the hosts disagree. It’s a great conversation and I enjoyed all of it.
Read "Putting on Christ" by Steven Anthony Bishop pastor Jeff and both of you guys if you haven't.
Love listening to all three of you talk about spiritual matters in a rational way. Ponder, study, and pray and God will lead us from grace to grace and from precept to precept; line upon line. I think that process is exciting so I'm glad God didn't just open a our minds and pour it all in. As a former science teacher I taught the scientific method and we did activities to better grasp the concepts, but when all was said and done I told the students that the scientific method was not the only way to learn the truth about things. I didn't tell them this part because I couldn't in a school setting, but I personally believed that science was man's way of trying to learn what God already knows. I didn't think there was any conflict between science and religion, although I did think science missed the mark on several occasions but I thought with time they would make the necessary corrections.
Faith is “not perfect knowledge.” It’s not something that exists independent of reason. Faith and knowledge go hand in hand. Faith has the “dot dot dot” indicating more to learn and to understand. I can know bits and pieces while also acknowledging I don’t have all the answers right now. Perfect reason, on the other hand, has a “period.” Perfect reason indicates complete knowledge. When the Brother of Jared could not be kept from the veil, it was because he had a perfect knowledge, therefore, he beheld the finger of the Lord. He had faith no longer. Until we all reach that level of knowing-that completeness-faith reminds us that while we are on the right path, we’re not at the destination yet. Faith and reason continue to play out as we wrestle with the things of God and the laws of this world… until we reach perfection in Christ.
36:44 - The law of entropy is used to make a point that God exists.
There is a nearly unlimited number of natural systems in which entropy deficiencies develop spontaneously…no outside divine source is needed to cause this.
The chaos happening in the universe is not occurring mostly because of humans…chaos happens all the time, all across the universe.
Why are we adding to their use of Mormons. I get most people know us as that but they like when we use Mormons. It sounds derogatory to them whereas we use the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints it ties us more with Christ because we are trying to be like Christ.
Why do you validate this off-ramp to the covenant path? You don't need this guy, he needs you. He feeds off low hanging fruit.
I have come to understand that just as there are 2 Great Laws, there are also 2 Great Questions that we must consider:
1st, Is there a God?
2nd, What exactly is the nature of our relationship with that God?
Upon these two questions hang all else. The answers of these questions shape all else.
Life doesn't end it has been for eternity, we came into the picture when God our father spoke us into being. Who knows when that was only he knows and actually we know we just don't know in this fallen state of being.
Thank you for the conversation- those were intriguing topics, and you did great! Reasoning has its place in faith, but knowledge only comes after the trial of our faith. Even in science, everything starts with a thesis (faith), to then test it, until we see if it can be proved or not. Of course we use reasoning to feed our faith, but that is not the foundation of it. Also, faith in false things will eventually crumble, but faith in truth happens line upon line until it reaches a perfect knowledge. We came to this planet to EXERCISE faith, and to unleash other senses beyond of what's visible and tangible (that's why we went through the veil, and we can't recall our pre-existence, so those gifts could be developed). Well, that's my opinion,.. Lastly, I believe the Holy Ghost does speak through feelings, reasoning and spiritual experiences (mind, heart and spirit when aligned, can receive confirmation of what is truth even if it does not make sense initially)
I don't trust Pastor Jeff either. Why are you platforming him.
YES, THANK YOU!!!!! Let's stop with this nonsense
If nothing else, it helps to not live in an echo chamber. I get that hearing another perspective can hurt the ears. I feel that way with politics, but this was a great conversation and I appreciate Pastor Jeff’s love your neighbor as yourself approach to LDS members.
I think it was C S Lewis who said to have Faith, "faith needs to be reasonable." He was a Christian Bible guy and Not a fan of the LDS narrative. Great reading with C S Lewis. Faith needs to be reasonable for sure. If it's not reasonable you've got to be careful about blind Faith. Jim Jones killed how many with his punch? Blind faith members. He was a prophet to his followers. I am now getting what I would consider a college degree in LDS history and LDS org info. Not the religion I want to be part of. . There's a very fine line here and I do not think lds history is reasonable or today, leaders do not practice what they preach. I am more for Jeff. He is very knowledgeable of the Bible and very much like CH Lewis. Jeff would never lie or hide money from members or start companies to hide money. Jeff would obey the laws of the land, convents of communities or cities ordeneces. Jeff is a great prophet and leader. Kind of guy I want to follow. Just saying.
CS Lewis was not a bible thumper, roller disco church kind of guy. To him, the entertainment masquarading as Christian or biblical is fanatic and unreasonable.
Reason would be Catholic with philosophers, theologians, scholars who dove head first into intellectualism. The opposite of Pastor Jeff.
Thank God for prophets who understand what reverence at church looks like. Not screaming girls twerking in hot pants theology.
We thank thee o God for a propher
There something about Pastor Jeff, that when one of his videos come along, the spirit gives me a little nudge to move onto something else.
I get the opposite nudge from the spirit. I love listening to Pastor Jeff. Hope you stayed to listen
Spirit is energy. The highest vibration is love.
Where did you get your resurrected Christ necklace?
I believe the 1832 First Vision account contradicts the 1838 account. Here i use reason, where i once had solid faith.
The gospels disagree about the crucifixion and resurrection.. so I guess you toss that out too
"Who is Jesus".. Sheesh, I hear that so much and it really rubs me because the issue isn't who Jesus is throughout Christian faiths. Everybody knows who Jesus is. It's WHAT is Jesus that differs between us.
The podcast and website called God Loves Mormons (GLM) does a good job covering this topic on both sides. A short tutorial that’s very digestible and informative.
@@mikespage0123 Thanks Mike but I don't need an opinion of a website to show me what Jesus is. Jesus Himself has done that. You can find all that info right in your family Bible!! In fact... Jesus is exactly what His Father is. If you need the scripture(s) just let me know. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 Of course I don’t, what a bad assumption. I just think that’s a good overview that you or anyone would benefit from. Clearly your heart is closed to truth though. God bless you.
@@mikespage0123 K, thanks Mike. God bless you too.
@@godsoffspring4195 🙏 ❤
Loved this discussion! I follow all of you, and think you all, including Pastor Jeff, do an amazing job! Wish Alma 30 was brought up. If it’s a good seed it will grow. Faith evidences grow over time based on many different experiences with the spirit.
I’ve really enjoyed Pastor Jeff’s Hello Saints channel. I follow him too
Faith being used in this discussion just confuses and prevents people from using reason. There was no clear definition of it. Don't most people consider it to be the belief in things without evidence? This isn't how it was being used in the examples given. Driving a car without knowledge on how it functions doesn't require faith. We've lived our entire lives around cars and see the evidence that they work every day. I would say that is more like trusting that the car will function, not believing it will without evidence. This is the same with expecting a paycheck or expecting the sun to rise the next day. These are not examples of having faith using this definition.
Is believing something without evidence something worthwhile much less a way to determine truth? If a commercial claims some shoes will make me play sports better should I believe this without evidence? If I believe it and then go buy them do they actually make me play better or is it my own confirmation bias which is why I now know they make me play better? If I grew up a Jehovas Witness or FLDS is faith a good thing and something I should be using to keep me in one of those religions?
At the outset of the conversation I clarify that the definition of faith that I am using is trust. Not believing in something without evidence.
Noone has faith in Christ without some evidence that it will lead to a better mode of being.
@thestickofjoseph Thanks for responding and correcting my statement about you not defining faith. I missed that, and I went back to see you defined it as trust around 9 minutes. Trust seems to often be used interchangeably with faith. However, Hebrews 11:1 calls faith belief without evidence. Later in the discussion, it seems faith is used this way which is why this topic gets confusing.
If we want to believe true things, we need to think of all the evidence for something and decide how confident we are in that belief. For example, we can give it a scale of 1-100. For me, if my confidence in a claim is less than 60 I would say I don't know instead of using words like faith to say I believe the claim.
I’m quickly running out of Pastor Jeff minutes.
The unspoken rules of this format may be necessary, it would be considered a low blow to bear testimony and talk about your own spiritual confirmation. It’s like fighting with one hand tied behind your back!
The saddest part about PJ is that he is now causing division amongst us saints. Just read the comments to each other. That alone is not good and serves his purpose, which is to pull the saints away and to his beliefs. He thinks he is helping us. But he isn’t. Do you know that he doesn’t think that baptism is a commandment or is necessary? We can love him but not at the expense of listening to his message and losing our way. What does he have to offer that we don’t have in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?
What pastor Jeff has to offer is a perspective on what the Evangelical viewpoint on faith is and the varying topics thus associated. Too often as Latter-Day saints, since we "know" we are right, we don't take any regard about what others of different faiths think or believe or even think about it at all. We should do as President Nelson does, interfaith dialogue is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I don't think pastor Jeff is creating the division among Latter-Day saints. It already exists, it's something that needs to be discussed amongst ourselves anyway. These types of things. Pastor Jeff and the LDS bloggers, are simply a catalyst for a conversation which should already be happening.
I normally don't click on these videos. They are a waste of my time and gives credibility to someone who doesn't need it . I did it just to make this comment. Why do you have "Mormon" on your thumbnail! Not only are you giving Jeff a platform, you are playing his game and diminishing the truth and authority of the Church of Jesus Christ. Let him build his own platform. Please don't do this. You have plenty of other excellent, faith promoting content to work on. I do click in those videos.
I watched David Alexander talk about him and I think he’s right about how sure he seems real nice but I’d be careful. He has undercut the Book of Mormon and says things about the doctrine in the Book of Mormon that didn’t sit well with me. If he’s read that thing clear through and isn’t humble enough to see it by now I’m skeptical.
That skepticism is healthy and might mean there’s more to investigate in earnest.
Faith is reasonable, if built on some sort of underpinning of reality. If not, it's blind, and can be dangerous.
Hi Rodney. Dangerous in what way?
@@godsoffspring4195 If you have no underpinning in reality, then you've no reason to disbelieve any claim, and are susceptible to believing any claim.
That's dangerous.
A recent example of that would be Heaven's Gate, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Warren Jeffs, etc...
It can be deadly.
@@godsoffspring4195 If you don't have an underpinning of reality, then you are susceptible to believing anything, without basis. That can lead to such things like Heavens Gate, or Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or Warren Jeffs. Dangerous.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire I see. So I guess the Latter Day Saints and mainstream EV's are good then because we don't follow anybody like that because we underpin our faith in Jesus Christ. Cool. Who do you have faith in?? :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 I would posit that Mormonism, it's unique faith claims, which don't include Christ, have no basis in reality, but that's another discussion, for another time.
In general I would assert that normative Christianity, has an underpinning in reality found in the NT / historical pretext, from which, if you wish, you can express a reasonable faith. I completely reject that expression, but it does have a connection to reality.
Finished watching the rest this morning. Very nice conversation. Enjoyed this very much👌. Jeff's line...
"Happier or healthier? There's a difference" was hilarious😂😂😂
I would absolutely agree that feeling the spirit brings clarity like Jackson said.
Great video
God doesn't necessarily respond with feelings. There are a myriad of ways that God speaks to man. The road to Emmaus experience (hearts burning) was just one way. I tend to get feelings of peace alongside pure knowledge pouring into my mind. I have occasionally seen visions, while my wife receives knowledge through dreams.
November 22 1963 JFK assassinated
That was an easy question…. Who the president was in 1964. ( For those of us that can remember that dreadful day
I’m sorry I didn’t get to meet up with you guys last Thursday. My family surprised me with a trip to the temple in Brigham City. It was first temple trip as a family.
1:04 ish
Hayden: Christ suffered for our sins first in the physical state of His mortality….. Then, Suffered for our Sins in the Spiritual State. It is within this spiritual state of distress that he came to know personally all of our suffering. Many sources of writings to back this up.
Jackson: Can’t have a “ pretty bad day” in option 2 …… because we all receive a “ Glory of some sort…..
When you talked about meeting Christ on the road to Emmaus they said when Christ spoke it caused a burning in the bosom that is the spirit of truth or Holy Ghost witnessing truth to the disciples, as Christ only spoke truth and they would of had that experience speaking with Him on many occasions, that's why they were able to recognise him. There were not many speaking truth in Jerusalem at that time, that's why Christ stood out.
When the mellenium starts and Christ returns we will have more light just like the moon differs from the stars in brightness. Light being symbolic of truth being able to see more clearly. The brighter it is the easier it is to see. It's why the evil are in outer darkness because they had eyes to see but rejected light and went in the opposite direction until they were void of all light or truth!
Great conversation! Paster Jeff def did comparison of beliefs and made sure he got his contradicting beliefs in at the end. lol it would be hard not too I get it. It’s great that he’s collaborating with so many amazing accounts like yours. I’ve got a son and daughter and her husband in the marines and I’m thankful for the service you guys provided! You’re blessed with amazing wisdom and faith and stay strong in the truths of the restored gospel because they are perfectly reasonable!
It seems to me, as a member of the Church all my life, that I focus so much on praying to receive an answer from the Spirit, because that seems like the most powerful and miraculous experience to focus on. Even though, consistent study of the scriptures is, of course, important. I liken it to a farmer working hard, day and night to plant his fields, and then praying for rain. He gives thanks for the rain, because the rain is the miraculous part. Without which his hard work is in vain. The opposite is true, too. The rain can't help your crops if you don't first till and fertilize the ground and plant the seeds. And we forget at times to talk about the work cause all we want to talk about is the love and mercy of the rain.
Loved this conversation and I really loved what was said at the end about semantics. We can have these conversations with understanding, kindness and brotherly love!! ❤️
If Geoff is a paster where is his congregation the bible sais the way to teach the gospel is to go out 2 by 2 in the high ways and by ways and if the people arnt ready to move on so you dont argue over religion paster Geoff isnt ready he should go back to his congregation
Love Pastor Jeff, so glad he shared in this polite conversation.
He actually addresses that very well on his channel. He may have done it more than once, but I heard him in a discussion or round table with maybe three other Pastors on a zoom call. Right after he did the same with three LDS bishops
48:25 but it is also a feeling because it talks about in the scriptures, the peace that passes all understanding. That is what a witness of the spirit is and even evangelicals believe that.
Not to be a science stickler, but you referred to the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, not one of Newton's laws. Newton's laws refer specifically to the classical interpretation of physical motion in an inertial reference frame (i.e., object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an external force; F = m*a; and for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).
Doesn't necessarily invalidate your main point, but I'm a physics nerd, so I had to speak up.
Thanks for letting me know!
Please tell me where I can get a large print Quad without index tabs. Thank you!
Check out Desert Book online
@@CatchTheBuzz1I have, unfortunately they don’t have them there. I’ve been looking for ever
Probably need to do triple combination and Bible separate to get size print you want and no tabs or older stock from eBay . It wouldn’t hurt to call church distribution
Our prayers 🙏 upon 🙏, my dear young and smart, spiritual generation 🙏 ❤️
My question for Pastor Jeff. If you believe people receive prophecy and you validate it against what the Bible says to see if it is true, why can you not do the same with the Book of Mormon? Since the Book of Mormon was received through prophecy and revelation it would suggest you apply the same validation steps. However, you would also have to put aside your personal interpretation of the Bible to let the Bible and the Book of Mormon speak together. They do compliment and confirm each other when you read then together without any preconceptions.
I think that’s a longer more detailed discussion on anachronisms, historicity, evidences, failed prophecies, failed truth claims, etc. None of those am I an expert on, but it’s been a great topic to investigate further, one step or bite at a time anyway.
This made my brain hurt, that means you guys did a good job 😂👍
As long as your foundation stands firm and rock solid in Christ and the restored gospel everything that trys to break or shake you will not. I use to think I could not be around people who had different agendas or different beliefs. I am so strong and firm with where I stand that nothing or no one can take that away from me and if somebody does that for you, that’s your fault for allowing it. The gift of discernment helps you decide what is good and what is not but building your house upon a rock will not let the rain or the floods wash it away. Jesus said to love one another and another means every one of Gods children!! It’s a tough task but it’s a commandment , see everyone as God sees them and your perspective will change in a celestial way!!
God is awesome and miraculous! Those who have ears to hear will understand. Heavenly Father, open our ears to hear your truth! 🙏
Where do we find your merchandise like ur shirts?
Nice job ya'll. Good stuff.
Entropic spaces are the places that gods go to, to be tested and tried. Scott Cold
God said "Come now let us reason together"
This is supposed to be the LDS side, and I think PJ did more than ask questions.
It's called interfaith dialogue.
Potus in 1864 is Lincoln lol
What's the deal with Pastor Jeff's haircut??
Lamanites liked that style too. :>)
Ad hominem attacks are not Christ-like. Love thy neighbor as yourself. Maybe you need a haircut too :)
@@mikespage0123 lol
@@Cindybin46 🤣 ❤️
@@Cindybin46 I mean it’s your destination on the line for not thinking celestial
Just finished listening to the video. If your guest has genuine intentions, i think these are nice conversations to have. Discernment is key. But let's be honest, at some point, everyone has their agenda. If he is purely seeking to know, fine. But also be wise and prayerful in discussing as he seems to be very switched on and I'm sure, rehearsed in his knowledge of his AND our religion. Which gives him power in the conversation. Just be careful its not a trojan horse that later down the track is used against you. While i have no question your intentions and desire behind this was pure, you can't always say the same for others. I hope I'm wrong. And this is just a nice sharing of faith.
Even if that’s true, it’s the same as an LDS missionary approaching others to conversate about faith.
@mikespage0123 well we know our faith ( you hope), but I as a missionary didn't know much about other faiths. Because I wasn't there to challenge or compare with investigators or strangers we met. My approach ( and this was just me, I'm not saying it's the best way), was to show people the fruit Christ offers them, through the LDS faith, Christ's Church. I didn't care about their faith or lack of. This is what I'm here to show you is on offer. If you like it, great. If not, I won't compare why what I have is better, I won't reason with you or try to logically explain it. If you are ready to receive it, you will. If not, then our meeting will be a seed on your journey. I think when you start to seek to compare and reason, you lose the audience, but more importantly, you are trying to do the spirits job. I can't do that better then the spirit. And I won't try
@@thebilboy6893 you’re certainly entitled to that approach, but you may someday consider what if you were wrong? What if JS is a false prophet? What if the church is not true? I think hearing others can just illuminate truth for either party. Imagine you are wrong, wouldn’t you be thankful someone was kind and shared with you the truth in the same way you intended for them? Are we not sharing out of love? Or just blindly forcing our beliefs onto others without examining them?
@mikespage0123 I understand your point of view. I don't mean that I don't care about people's belief or views and only want to share what I believe. Because that would be ignorant and yes I agree. One sided. I'm just saying for me, I don't seek to challenge via comparison. I have enough life experience under my belt now that I'm just not interested in confrontation and I've seen it doesn't help at all to foster commonality and brotherhood. I just take the approach of love my family, love my neighbour and let my actions be my example to others. If they notice my actions and see I'm different and want to know why, I will certainly engage with them. But I'm not going out of my way to have my words do it. If people are asking me because of how they perceive I carry myself, rhythm the tells me, I am living what I believe. And thats the best way in my opinion to share my faith.
@@thebilboy6893 VERY WELL SAID I SUPPORT YOU ALL THE WAY..
Pastor Jeff is bright and articulate ; l think he will be a better Pastor because of this extended experiance with LDS podcasts and lds personal experiences with the church and it members:
I just would never have that interest in Pastor Jeffs church: but its exciting that Pastor Jeff
did take this adventure to understsnd the LDS culture , religion and doctrine! Lets pretend Pastor Jeff in intrigued enough that whenever he goes back to his church, his flock that he can help them with his perspective! Little by little l know people with open minds will at least
realize that the book of Mormon supports the bible and the bible supports the book of Mormon!
Can you explain why errors in the KJV version of JS’s time are found in the BoM if it wasn’t plagiarism?
@@mikespage0123Why did Luther chuck out 7 accepted bible books? And what bible verses justify changing God’s word like that? Was Luther in the bible? Did the bible say to reform?
@@suem6004 you didn’t answer the question
Great conversation.