Maybe a minority in the "why would they side with a mindflayer over a Paladin" I very much appreciate the members of Vox Machina that decide to stay loyal to the deal that they made, regardless of who it was with. It's very common for a lawful character to break their word. I appreciate when someone sticks to it, especially in difficult circumstances.
That's definitely part of it for some of them - the line is muddled in crosstalk so I didn't include a clip, but Percy's response when they discuss who they would side with is, "Only one of them is asking that I become a liar."
As far as I can figure, having a mindflayer onside when you are trying to fight a bunch of mindflayers seems like it is a tactical advantage too good to throw away over a disagreement. It makes sense that a mindflayer could have a lot to offer that a random paladin would not.
I didn't mind them sticking to their deal, I just didn't appreciate the fact that they basically denied or downplayed Kima's torture through Matt's description of her mutilating a dead corpse out of pure frustration. I think that's where my dislike for Keyleth initially came from, and the group as a whole in the way they treated Kima, who is also a friend of someone they seem to respect deeply, in the way they just sort of paraded her petrified corpse around town at the end of the arc.
As much as I'm living for everyone judging the party for trusting Clarota, I was 100% as attached to Clarota as they were on my first watch (and yes, I was a complete DnD newbie 😀)
Clarota is a great example of why sometimes its way more fun to DM D&D with people completely new to the game rather than hardened vets. Anyone who has played D&D for a few years is going to see a mind flayer for what they are, a treacherous piece of scum that will turn on them the second its to their advantage. But if by some grace of god, they manage to keep it alive and on a string, when a paladin of Bahamut shows up and says "hey we need to kill this thing" that would be a clear sign that ok - seriously no messing around, the illithid needs to go. But when you have a pack of newbies who have no idea about monster reputations or what it means to follow someone like Bahamut, well then all that goes out the window, and they can react naturally, like a clueless individual in that situation actually would.
they had been playing for a couple years at this point, but I think it was the first illithid for a couple of them. Liam absolutely knew, as did Orion. Marisha was playing Keyleth as very distrustful of religious types, so Kima's vehemence puts her off.
@@johnobrien7562 They were on Pathfinder before, Liam was the only one who really knew what a mind flayer was, Orion apparently meta gamed on the spot and looked it up
as someone who doesnt have the spoons to actually watch through the campaign, this series is everything i need both from a "playing better dnd" perspective and a "recap from a cool guy" perspective. u deserve all the algorithm points!!
@@Zalied Well--mayyybe? But these are the episodes most folks skip as being minor and relatively insignificant to the larger story. But perhaps you are right. Once SG Mike has covered a GM's habit he may skip episodes that just reinforce previous lessons learned.
@@dougpirko211 I more of ment when we are on episode idk 68 (that could be super important I'm not gonna check just an example) We probably are only recapping more than adding like a lesson about gming or being a party member. So we could end up doing multiple episodes a video for those repeat moments or skipping idk that's a long while from. Ow who knows
I remember when I first watched this episode I absolutely loved the section with Vax exploring the dungeon and Matt revealing each room. Just something about slowly unveiling the concealed map part by part is something I enjoy in critical role whenever it happens. Also I watched campaign 1 up to episode 71, didn’t watch campaign 2 at all except for random clips and highlights (same with the rest of C1 after episode 70), but am currently watching campaign 3 week by week. I wish I had the time to go back through all of C1 and C2.
For what it's worth, Campaign 2 is really enjoyable to watch. I found the first campaign just...a lot most of the time, the characters were just so tropey and it felt like the cast was still kind of figuring out this whole live play thing. By the time 2 rolled around they were all really comfortable and a lot of their interactions felt more effortless. I've enjoyed 3, though it kind of feels like everyone just went "Hey, how weird and disconnected can this get before it goes off the rails?" when they made their characters, but by now there's a sort of beauty to the madness lol (I wouldn't change any of them).
I remember watching and feeling a bit put-off by the seeming distrust of Kima. I mean, she was the whole reason they were there, at the request of Allura. But it has been a long time since I watched it, so I may have been misreading their interactions. I do like the lesson of this one! Always good to keep the players in mind and not go into “cutscene mode” having your NPCs chat leaving the players with nothing to do but listen.
You are absolutely correct. They were there to save Kima for Allura, literally the thing that brought them there. And then they were pretty quick to threaten Kima with violence :D
I mean a) she’s askimgntywm to break an important promiss to a being who’s people has been enslaved, and b) she’s been captured, held, and tortured in a place near where other beings have had their minds conteolled. Who’s to say that Lady Kima really is Lady Kims right now? I would be suspicious too.
I agree, as a DM you should always avoid just talking to yourself and always keep the PC's involved. If NPCs do need to talk, keep it short. If you can't, try and just give a summary of what's happening. No matter how good an actor you are it's going to get dull quick for the players, unless your players have already agreed to sit and watch your one person show, then act away dear thespian.
It is a tricky thing to pull off, my fiance is actually pretty good at it especially considering he's a pretty new DM. He got into wanting to because of CR and how he enjoys the way Matt DMs. He's managed some really good little convos, and he always keeps them pretty short which I think helps. Last time he DM'd I was having my character act as a pseudo-NPC and was able to help bounce into his NPC convos to help bring the group back into it. There's a few ways to make it work it just takes a bit of work.
Been dying for this new episode of yours. I'm at episode 80 in my first watch of Campaign One and this is a great way to refresh what it was like at the beginning, so much has changed and I can't wait to relive it together with you all!
8:40 Matthew Colville has also done this incredibly successfully in the Chain. Specifically episode 14, Chain's King to Dragon Three. Just watching that one, even without context from the previous episodes of The Chain is so cool.
Klarota is perhaps the most egregious example of the "beloved pet" i have seen in a very long time... But it works because all of the PC´s are broken so to speak. They are the sort of people who would project their own hardships on this fairly blank slate, wanting to save them... from them self if nothing else. This will happen again later with another NPC... But that is for a later time.
I'm working my way through campaign 1, and like 50 episodes in still not a person at the table has internalized that you can't simply pour basilisk blood on somebody to cure petrification.
In my experience, people only internalize lessons about something they had misremembered once there’s a consequence to getting it wrong (at least in D&D games - I’ve worked in plenty of offices where people get lots of things wrong and never learn anything).
Another example of a DM handling NPCs talking to each other handled in a dramatic and engaging way is during Dimension 20’s A Crown of Candy flashback scenes (there are a few between the House Rocks sisters that stand out) - idk if you mention it in the vid covering this topic, but I hope so!
Another great video SuperGeekMike, love these recaps, but I still highly suggest that people watch the entire Campaign 1. I started late last year & I'm half way through and love it! The main thing that legitimately got me invested in the show was my then favourite character - Clarota! Amazing voice, plus Clarotas legitimate quest to save his people from the mind controlling K'varn really got me hooked. I love the whole unlikely ally vibes. I'm also not ashamed to say that I was 100% with Scanlan on the "we side with Clarota and you're either with us or against us" stance he took with Lady Kima in this episode. I'm also new to DND, so I wasn't to well versed as to why they should have so implicitly trusted Lady Kima. Without spoilers, I was suprised with how this whole subplot concluded, but I think this episode and interaction in particular between them is really what got me hooked into becoming a critter. (Sidenote - I thought Clarotas magical arcane lightning blasts was outrageously cool). I'm looking forward to seeing more content from you!
Honestly, one of the absolute joys of new players, to me, is that they are so much more honest or even extreme in their reactions to how an NPC acts/presents and it almost always makes sense for their character. The fact that players think you 'should' trust or 'should not' trust a stranger in-game is always... a difficult balancing act let's say, concerning meta-gaming and I honestly find it rather limiting most of the time to sit beside a player that has memorised every creature's alignment from the books, when you/your DM is trying to bring something fresh or deliberately grey to a quest/city
I really hate that Orion couldnt handle the switch to the show. He seems like before he was all "it has to be exciting for the audience" that he was a much better player. Tiberius was also a great character.
From what has been said there was also a lot of background stuff going on that caused a degeneration of their relationship (although a lot of it is hearsay from what I know) but it is a shame, I enjoyed Tiberius, he's great character in the VM: Origins comic! It just was a shame that Orion and whatever was going on kind of killed that, before it got time to flourish. I do think it gave more space for Taliesin and Percy to take the spotlight as things progressed though.
@@E-Lykos Sadly a lot of the reasons he "left" the game had very little to do with his in-game performance. But even in the early game, he would say he was going to do something, then recon it two seconds later when informed of what the results would likely be. I find that highly annoying as a DM unless you are brand new to the game and he was a veteran player.
Every time I see this and Orion (as Tiberious) says "We are not halfwits" I can't help but laugh and think, "but you are. You have on one side a champion of good and light calling the other a monster. On the other you have a monster that eats brains."
my DM homebrewed that basilisk saliva glands can be used to depetrify someone due to basilisks eating meat rather than stone. one gland per basilisk and one depetrification per gland.
Your comment about NPC conversations made me think about how Matt handles them, and I feel like he has broken that rule more frequently as time as gone on. Though this tends to be with a high level of success, it makes me feel like these early episodes were run closer to how one might run a home game, where the later campaigns started to be run with more of the “creating a show for an audience” mentality. I don’t mean this as criticism, just an observation, and I’m curious if that tracks with others’ experience as well.
Honestly, from the first moment they met him, I figured things would end as they did, especially when he kept saying that he would do anything to be accepted back into his people.
for sure I really hate having make 2 NPCs talk to each other. it feels like when maeve from westworld is looking at her own dialog tree. ua-cam.com/video/ZnxJRYit44k/v-deo.html
As much crosstalk and metagaming and problem playering bad video quality and sound quality and sort of slow slog the kraghammer arc had, those episodes are still great
@@SupergeekMike Throughout your Desmistifying Vox Machina videos, I've noticed the non subtle implication that "This isnt what DnD is" or "This is not what people expect from DnD" or adjects are used to describe a good game/idea/advice etc, all of which reinforce the standard Trad style Wotc pushes heavily with 5e. My problem is that DnD is much more than DnD 5e, and being a good GM extends out even further than that. A specific example is the discussion of "making the characters feel powerful". The way you talked about it made it seem like not only is this the default assumption, but that theres no alternative and to contradict it is wrong. When, in reality, not feeling powerful is a huge preference for a non-insignificant amount of DnD players. Every time I heard it, I rolled my eyes, this is just the video that got me to comment on it. Basically, what Im trying to say is not that you're advice, videos, etc are bad, but I just dont appreciate the common culture which assumes Trad playstyles, rarely acknowledges alternatives and dismisses them subtly or overtly otherwise. It's not a huge issue, and I dont blame you. It's a kind of...pervasive cultural pressure within the space, and it's better if, rather than reject decisions, acknowledge their strengths in different styles
"I encourage violence" is an excellent line
It became his 2nd signature line
Maybe a minority in the "why would they side with a mindflayer over a Paladin"
I very much appreciate the members of Vox Machina that decide to stay loyal to the deal that they made, regardless of who it was with.
It's very common for a lawful character to break their word. I appreciate when someone sticks to it, especially in difficult circumstances.
That's definitely part of it for some of them - the line is muddled in crosstalk so I didn't include a clip, but Percy's response when they discuss who they would side with is, "Only one of them is asking that I become a liar."
@@SupergeekMike That is such a good line!
@@SupergeekMike yes I remember that Line. Very much a Talisen comment
As far as I can figure, having a mindflayer onside when you are trying to fight a bunch of mindflayers seems like it is a tactical advantage too good to throw away over a disagreement. It makes sense that a mindflayer could have a lot to offer that a random paladin would not.
I didn't mind them sticking to their deal, I just didn't appreciate the fact that they basically denied or downplayed Kima's torture through Matt's description of her mutilating a dead corpse out of pure frustration.
I think that's where my dislike for Keyleth initially came from, and the group as a whole in the way they treated Kima, who is also a friend of someone they seem to respect deeply, in the way they just sort of paraded her petrified corpse around town at the end of the arc.
As much as I'm living for everyone judging the party for trusting Clarota, I was 100% as attached to Clarota as they were on my first watch (and yes, I was a complete DnD newbie 😀)
Same hahahah
"Enter A Dungeon Full Of... Construction Paper" Is Comedy Gold. It Got me. Caught me off guard as well. Well played Mike
babe wake up new supergeekmike just dropped
4:22 was in the Legend of Vox Machina as part of Keyleth's most memorable kills lmao
Clarota is a great example of why sometimes its way more fun to DM D&D with people completely new to the game rather than hardened vets. Anyone who has played D&D for a few years is going to see a mind flayer for what they are, a treacherous piece of scum that will turn on them the second its to their advantage. But if by some grace of god, they manage to keep it alive and on a string, when a paladin of Bahamut shows up and says "hey we need to kill this thing" that would be a clear sign that ok - seriously no messing around, the illithid needs to go. But when you have a pack of newbies who have no idea about monster reputations or what it means to follow someone like Bahamut, well then all that goes out the window, and they can react naturally, like a clueless individual in that situation actually would.
they had been playing for a couple years at this point, but I think it was the first illithid for a couple of them. Liam absolutely knew, as did Orion. Marisha was playing Keyleth as very distrustful of religious types, so Kima's vehemence puts her off.
@@johnobrien7562 They were on Pathfinder before, Liam was the only one who really knew what a mind flayer was, Orion apparently meta gamed on the spot and looked it up
@@Dominion69420 and talieson knew. Lets face it.... it's just the type of eldritch horror he might have met along his millenia of wandering. Hahahah
as someone who doesnt have the spoons to actually watch through the campaign, this series is everything i need both from a "playing better dnd" perspective and a "recap from a cool guy" perspective. u deserve all the algorithm points!!
Although it is going to be a 4 year long summary! 😀
@@dougpirko211 I assume we will reach a point that some minor episodes won't have much to add that we havnt already discussed saving a little time
@@Zalied Well--mayyybe? But these are the episodes most folks skip as being minor and relatively insignificant to the larger story.
But perhaps you are right. Once SG Mike has covered a GM's habit he may skip episodes that just reinforce previous lessons learned.
@@dougpirko211 I more of ment when we are on episode idk 68 (that could be super important I'm not gonna check just an example)
We probably are only recapping more than adding like a lesson about gming or being a party member. So we could end up doing multiple episodes a video for those repeat moments or skipping idk that's a long while from. Ow who knows
Maybe not skip but perhaps recap several episodes briefly.
I remember when I first watched this episode I absolutely loved the section with Vax exploring the dungeon and Matt revealing each room. Just something about slowly unveiling the concealed map part by part is something I enjoy in critical role whenever it happens. Also I watched campaign 1 up to episode 71, didn’t watch campaign 2 at all except for random clips and highlights (same with the rest of C1 after episode 70), but am currently watching campaign 3 week by week. I wish I had the time to go back through all of C1 and C2.
For what it's worth, Campaign 2 is really enjoyable to watch. I found the first campaign just...a lot most of the time, the characters were just so tropey and it felt like the cast was still kind of figuring out this whole live play thing. By the time 2 rolled around they were all really comfortable and a lot of their interactions felt more effortless. I've enjoyed 3, though it kind of feels like everyone just went "Hey, how weird and disconnected can this get before it goes off the rails?" when they made their characters, but by now there's a sort of beauty to the madness lol (I wouldn't change any of them).
AMong some of my friends, extended amounts of NPCs talking to each other is known as "monsterbation"
I remember watching and feeling a bit put-off by the seeming distrust of Kima. I mean, she was the whole reason they were there, at the request of Allura. But it has been a long time since I watched it, so I may have been misreading their interactions.
I do like the lesson of this one! Always good to keep the players in mind and not go into “cutscene mode” having your NPCs chat leaving the players with nothing to do but listen.
You are absolutely correct. They were there to save Kima for Allura, literally the thing that brought them there. And then they were pretty quick to threaten Kima with violence :D
I mean a) she’s askimgntywm to break an important promiss to a being who’s people has been enslaved, and b) she’s been captured, held, and tortured in a place near where other beings have had their minds conteolled. Who’s to say that Lady Kima really is Lady Kims right now? I would be suspicious too.
Honestly I love the whole Clarota arc just in terms of narrative
Nice touch with the post-it note
What's the point of that?
@@cheekybum1513 - it covers the twitch live chat
I agree, as a DM you should always avoid just talking to yourself and always keep the PC's involved. If NPCs do need to talk, keep it short. If you can't, try and just give a summary of what's happening. No matter how good an actor you are it's going to get dull quick for the players, unless your players have already agreed to sit and watch your one person show, then act away dear thespian.
It is a tricky thing to pull off, my fiance is actually pretty good at it especially considering he's a pretty new DM. He got into wanting to because of CR and how he enjoys the way Matt DMs. He's managed some really good little convos, and he always keeps them pretty short which I think helps. Last time he DM'd I was having my character act as a pseudo-NPC and was able to help bounce into his NPC convos to help bring the group back into it. There's a few ways to make it work it just takes a bit of work.
This is a good series. This is a good channel. I like Mike.
I love this series so much - I am eagerly anticipating you being able to upgrade your sound equipment! You are worth it
Been dying for this new episode of yours. I'm at episode 80 in my first watch of Campaign One and this is a great way to refresh what it was like at the beginning, so much has changed and I can't wait to relive it together with you all!
8:40 Matthew Colville has also done this incredibly successfully in the Chain. Specifically episode 14, Chain's King to Dragon Three. Just watching that one, even without context from the previous episodes of The Chain is so cool.
I hope the Chain returns soon. I love that series. A
@@PyrotechNick77 The Chain is so good and it will be returning, but not in the same format as before.
Klarota is perhaps the most egregious example of the "beloved pet" i have seen in a very long time... But it works because all of the PC´s are broken so to speak. They are the sort of people who would project their own hardships on this fairly blank slate, wanting to save them... from them self if nothing else. This will happen again later with another NPC... But that is for a later time.
OK this might actually be better than the actual show
Because, you know, runtime
"I encourage violence" is the best quote from Tiberius, hands down.
I've been GMing a while and I learn something new every time I watch this channel. Great video, thank you so much!
I've said it before, but for sure want to reiterate that I appreciate your thoughts, always glad to see your videos vibe across my feed!
I promise to come back this video after campaign 1
Have been loving this series, more please!
This series is so good! I love your analysis of the episodes! It's so thoughtful!
I remember watching this episode and having so much fun. Thanks for the highlights and the lessons.
I really like this videos! I think it will help me on my game this evening !
I love how the party fully and completely forgets why they're in the Underdark to begin with and sides against the person they were sent to rescue.
Really enjoying these! Keep it up!
Matt’s npc “private” dialog is godly
I'm working my way through campaign 1, and like 50 episodes in still not a person at the table has internalized that you can't simply pour basilisk blood on somebody to cure petrification.
In my experience, people only internalize lessons about something they had misremembered once there’s a consequence to getting it wrong (at least in D&D games - I’ve worked in plenty of offices where people get lots of things wrong and never learn anything).
Grog waving at "None of us are half-wits" is an underrated moment
Another example of a DM handling NPCs talking to each other handled in a dramatic and engaging way is during Dimension 20’s A Crown of Candy flashback scenes (there are a few between the House Rocks sisters that stand out) - idk if you mention it in the vid covering this topic, but I hope so!
Yey! My favorite series in this channel! :D
Another great video SuperGeekMike, love these recaps, but I still highly suggest that people watch the entire Campaign 1. I started late last year & I'm half way through and love it!
The main thing that legitimately got me invested in the show was my then favourite character - Clarota!
Amazing voice, plus Clarotas legitimate quest to save his people from the mind controlling K'varn really got me hooked. I love the whole unlikely ally vibes. I'm also not ashamed to say that I was 100% with Scanlan on the "we side with Clarota and you're either with us or against us" stance he took with Lady Kima in this episode.
I'm also new to DND, so I wasn't to well versed as to why they should have so implicitly trusted Lady Kima. Without spoilers, I was suprised with how this whole subplot concluded, but I think this episode and interaction in particular between them is really what got me hooked into becoming a critter. (Sidenote - I thought Clarotas magical arcane lightning blasts was outrageously cool).
I'm looking forward to seeing more content from you!
Honestly, one of the absolute joys of new players, to me, is that they are so much more honest or even extreme in their reactions to how an NPC acts/presents and it almost always makes sense for their character. The fact that players think you 'should' trust or 'should not' trust a stranger in-game is always... a difficult balancing act let's say, concerning meta-gaming and I honestly find it rather limiting most of the time to sit beside a player that has memorised every creature's alignment from the books, when you/your DM is trying to bring something fresh or deliberately grey to a quest/city
"With us or against us" is never a good way to start a relationship. And in this case, it was kind of escalation on Scanlan's part.
I really hate that Orion couldnt handle the switch to the show. He seems like before he was all "it has to be exciting for the audience" that he was a much better player. Tiberius was also a great character.
From what has been said there was also a lot of background stuff going on that caused a degeneration of their relationship (although a lot of it is hearsay from what I know) but it is a shame, I enjoyed Tiberius, he's great character in the VM: Origins comic! It just was a shame that Orion and whatever was going on kind of killed that, before it got time to flourish. I do think it gave more space for Taliesin and Percy to take the spotlight as things progressed though.
@@E-Lykos Sadly a lot of the reasons he "left" the game had very little to do with his in-game performance. But even in the early game, he would say he was going to do something, then recon it two seconds later when informed of what the results would likely be. I find that highly annoying as a DM unless you are brand new to the game and he was a veteran player.
Love this series!
Every time I see this and Orion (as Tiberious) says "We are not halfwits" I can't help but laugh and think, "but you are. You have on one side a champion of good and light calling the other a monster. On the other you have a monster that eats brains."
They really loved that brain-eating monster…
Same I’d have killed the mindflayer as soon as I saw him. Like ya no we aren’t keeping that thing with us. He’s going to stab us in the back.
my DM homebrewed that basilisk saliva glands can be used to depetrify someone due to basilisks eating meat rather than stone. one gland per basilisk and one depetrification per gland.
That's a really nice wb touch
Love your content!
Oh oh!!! This shh shh push him into lava scene from Keyleth we got to see animated!
Your comment about NPC conversations made me think about how Matt handles them, and I feel like he has broken that rule more frequently as time as gone on. Though this tends to be with a high level of success, it makes me feel like these early episodes were run closer to how one might run a home game, where the later campaigns started to be run with more of the “creating a show for an audience” mentality. I don’t mean this as criticism, just an observation, and I’m curious if that tracks with others’ experience as well.
It should say something about your presentation that I've never watched any critical role, but I've watched all of your videos on it.
I'm not sure if it was good or bad not to mention Pike's moment in this episode.
Ssssssh Ssssssh Ssssssh go to sleep.
I suspect that if they engaged clarota more about his position being an individual he might have been held from turning
Honestly, from the first moment they met him, I figured things would end as they did, especially when he kept saying that he would do anything to be accepted back into his people.
@Wraithspartan yeah, the writing was on the wall for this one, it was a predictable betrayal but no less tragic
🎶 Ma ma ma Mike & Clarota!
for sure I really hate having make 2 NPCs talk to each other. it feels like when maeve from westworld is looking at her own dialog tree. ua-cam.com/video/ZnxJRYit44k/v-deo.html
As much crosstalk and metagaming and problem playering bad video quality and sound quality and sort of slow slog the kraghammer arc had, those episodes are still great
Gotta say, not a fan of how singularly you portray Trad style of DnD and its appeals as the only thing
What do you mean?
@@SupergeekMike Throughout your Desmistifying Vox Machina videos, I've noticed the non subtle implication that "This isnt what DnD is" or "This is not what people expect from DnD" or adjects are used to describe a good game/idea/advice etc, all of which reinforce the standard Trad style Wotc pushes heavily with 5e. My problem is that DnD is much more than DnD 5e, and being a good GM extends out even further than that. A specific example is the discussion of "making the characters feel powerful". The way you talked about it made it seem like not only is this the default assumption, but that theres no alternative and to contradict it is wrong. When, in reality, not feeling powerful is a huge preference for a non-insignificant amount of DnD players.
Every time I heard it, I rolled my eyes, this is just the video that got me to comment on it.
Basically, what Im trying to say is not that you're advice, videos, etc are bad, but I just dont appreciate the common culture which assumes Trad playstyles, rarely acknowledges alternatives and dismisses them subtly or overtly otherwise.
It's not a huge issue, and I dont blame you. It's a kind of...pervasive cultural pressure within the space, and it's better if, rather than reject decisions, acknowledge their strengths in different styles
K
@@SupergeekMike K