The FOOD FOREST FABLE Sage Advice From the Tractor Shed Homesteading and Gardening 101
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Food forests for you to consider in Sage Advice From The Tractor Shed.
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College Hill Farm is a Homestead/Hobby Farm operated by Joel and Crystal Eldridge. We homestead, garden, can, freeze, store, dehydrate, raise animals, vlog, and write about the homesteading way of life, which is really an Appalachian way of life for hundreds of years. We provide time honored traditional advice from years of experience. We also try new things we have never tried before to see how they work for us. Be certain to visit our channel page at / collegehillfarm On the page you can see our trailer which details why we are on UA-cam. So subscribe and join us on our journey. If you hit the little bell it will notify you when we upload videos. We upload every Sunday-Tuesday-Thursday. Sometimes one or sometimes 5 videos are uploaded depending on what went on on the homestead that week. Feel free to contact us by snail mail at College Hill Farm PO Box 89 Paint Lick, Ky. 40461 You might also catch up with us at Village Fest - In the Historic Village of Paint Lick the first Saturday in October. - Розваги
You're misunderstanding permaculture. It's not hunter-gatherer. It's farming more sustainably. If you're stuck on the same crops you've always grown or those only native to your area, then no, it won't work. The crops you're used to are designed for commercial farming. The natives are designed for a much lower population per acre. But if you broaden your mind and your food varieties, it's absolutely possible. Pigeon peas. Taro. Soy. Perpetual spinach. Bambara nuts. Moringa. If you choose species from across the world, you can create a much higher nutritional density per acre than pure-natives or destructive-farming could manage. If you have enough land, you can include animals also - or you could just hunt if you want meat. But you can absolutely grow all of your family's nutritional requirements in a surprisingly small space.
You are talking permaculture I was talking food forest there is a great distinction.
@@CollegeHillFarm A food forest IS permaculture. And it's where every 'permaculture homestead' will inevitably end up if they want to be successful.
“Food forests,” also called “forest gardens” or “edible forests,” is shorthand for the practice of cultivating forest ecosystems for human food production.
@@CollegeHillFarm I believe ya'll are both using the same words, for different things, different purposes and different design systems. A "food forest" is not "permaculture'. it is just one technique used by Permaculturists. Permaculture is a design system based on ethics. A "Food forest" as done in Permaculture, has zero intention of recreating anything that existed before. It is something completely different that is created, and managed, inspired by nature, one system being a forest.
Unfortunately, without a training in Permaculture, one simply, it is a rare person that gets that it's not a technique, it's a design system, which can be applied to agriculture, or city planning, or business planning or many things. Because it's based on ethics, not devices and techniques.
Tools and techniques, without understanding, is destined to fail.
The food forest is a form of agriculture, it's not meant to replicate a hunter gatherer lifestyle. It's meant to be a managed system. It's called agroforestry.
For largescale modern largescale farmers it can absolutely be a viable way to supplement income, for small scale farmers it can be a total alternative and for subsistance farmers it can either supplement or replace - and in places facing desertification it's probably an essential part of tackling soil erosion.
I do find it ridiculous when people argue that artificial fertilizer isn't needed though, sure you can fertilise your land with manure but you can guarantee the animals making that manure are not living off certified organic food lol.
While I agree it must be practiced on a large scale in order to provide any substantive return. Small scale homesteaders are going to have little success with a food forest feeding them in a substantial way.
@@CollegeHillFarm i think it's even tough for a person to beat out the grocery store for calories vs price....with most crops... of course farming can be fun and tastier... but mayb not cheaper depending on your other $kill sets which may be more efficient.
@@CollegeHillFarm Sorry, but that is just not true. Millions of people around the world in tropics already do rely on 'food forest' crops (specifically bananas--typically the starchy kind for cooking) as a staple food. Many of the places that rely on it are also not highly developed technologically and don't have much money so they are often subsistence farmers. It has very high yields per acre (only a few acres could easily cover the all the caloric needs for a very large family). A food forest (as a part of a larger permaculture system that accounts and adapts things for your needs and environment) is not magic, but no sane person ever said so. It is however, definitely a valuable tool for sustainable living when adapted to the circumstances.
I have much more detailed analysis of this and other points in a main comment.
@unionse7en I agree. We all have skill sets and we need one another.
@kanoaika Most of those countries of which you speak do not have sufficient land mass to feed their current population. Here is a reputable source for you to consider. worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/food-self-sufficiency-rate-by-country
Read up pops. Folks planting food forrest don’t think they are going to become hunter gatherers and live off the land. They typically have small acreage and pair up a few plants that benefit each other to cut down on their work and minimize driving a tractor around. They want to minimize chemicals and expenses and get a little return on investment. While also adding a little variety and beauty to their cookie cutter neighborhoods.
Not if you watch the youtube videos about how food forests can feed the planet.
@@CollegeHillFarm
Wait just a minute there!!!
Are you implying that there are people on YT who are wrong about food forests?
People like you?
on purpose!
I’ve never seen anyone say they will “feed the planet.”
And mine has supplemented my food and the animals food.
Dude, it works well for some, not so much for others. Don't call it a "fable" just because it doesn't work for you. Maybe you have a different defintion for "food forrest" than others?
Thanks. This is based on those on youtube who claim food forests and back to nature can feed the world.
stop consuming alot of sugar an your body will start to feel better really fast.
sugar causes inflamation in the body, good luck have a great week
Ok thanks!
Nobody is more of a critic to food forestry than I am. As a whole it is riddled with nonsense and overuse of woodchips. I think you know what food forestry is about as much as they do because none of you are correct. The originators of the concept lay out how a food forest should be laid out. There are some commercial types that food forest in rows. Myself I plant blackberries in my open south side not in the forest. Because if you follow basic food forest principles you know that. You don't. You are just making crap up based on the nonsense you see on youtube. You are correct if that is all you know about it. The University of Florida uses some food forest principles now. You make it sound like a bunch of plants stuck in the ground with no planning. Maybe most do but that is not how the originators planned it. Many food foresters raise cattle and other animals in the food forest. I myself have lots of deer I can take when I need. I am much healthier having my own food available and I still go grocery shopping. I can't afford grocery prices for everything.
I can't afford grocery prices either and it will get worse. We eat venison instead of beef. The rant was about the food forest nonsense on youtube about creating food forests to feed the world.
Respectfully I think you're kind of missing the point. A food forest won't provide everything but it can provide a lot. You can have a food forest area surrounding row crops, livestock pens and pastures, ponds and water sources. A forest consists of layers; roots, ground covers, small plants and shrubs, sub canopy, canopy and climbing plants and vines. I'll agree a food forest in itself won't feed you 100%, but with spring summer and fall crops you rotate, animal livestock, and areas where you dedicate to longterm food production (fruit trees, perennial food producing berries, grapes) that is the most holistic way in my mind we can provide for our needs year round while being good stewards of the land we inhabit
But there are those on the internet that say that food forests can feed the world. You must have seen those claims.
There is a fundamental misconception here. A 'food forest' is not a recreation of the natural environment. You are completely correct that in the vast majority of cases (there may be some exceptions) a typical natural environment will not yield anywhere near the same amount of food as one managed by humans to make food. This truth however is completely irrelevant to whether a 'food forest' can reasonably support a family. It is not a re-creation of the environment that hunter-gatherers foraged from: it is a designed environment created by and managed by humans to serve their needs just like a annual field is. (As a side note since the evolution of the c4 photosynthesis pathway in grasses the natural environment in lots of places isn't even a forest because of the way that those grasslands interact with fire).
As a direct counterpoint to your claim that "you can't make a 7sqmi food forest and feed yourself [and your family]": no, *you* are wrong and tons of people actually relay on a food forest crop already as a staple food--bananas (often at least partially the starchy cooking varieties as eating the sweet kinds as a staple food would be disgusting). The low bound for a yield for banana's is 12 tons per acre (averages and high yields are much higher like up to 70 tons per acre in some intensive plantations). With 2000 kcal needs per person on average per day and an absurdly large family of 50 people you would need 7 tons of banana to meet all their caloric needs for the entire year. Say we are terrible at managing and only get 7 tons per 2 acres (around 30% the low bound yield) and the maybe 1/2 of that is wasted or inedible (though they keep well and are available year round). That is still only 4 acres of planted land needed for all the staple food production. Leaving 4476 acres of land for whatever else (Animals, something else like soy, vegetable garden, firewood, housing etc). Bananas aren't the only option (food forests are fairly adaptable) I just chose them because they are the most widely done and we know they work because millions of people around the world rely on them as a staple food--i.e. its not just the testimonial of some random person on UA-cam.
These calculations are already trying to show the worst reasonable case not considering the fact that it is a food forest (i.e. Bananas won't be your only product). Even if you do something and it turns out 100 times worse it will still work out with the vast majority of the 7 sqmi still open.
Regardless of your feelings and experience with it food forests very clearly work according to the evidence. Claiming that it doesn't work is simply ludicrous.
(Full calculation: 2000kcal*365days*50people/120kcal per 100g wet/10 to convert to kg /2.2 lbs per kg /2000 lbs per ton = 6.913 tons of bananas required per year)
Here are some additional points that should be considered:
1. Food forests should generally be considered in the broader context of permaculture--the fundamental of which is learning about your environment and natural processes and designing and maintaining your systems to try to make these natural things work for you and your purposes as much as possible. That means choosing the techniques that work for where you are and your goals. If you design your system in a way that doesn't fit your area (e.g. trying to do the exact same thing as someone who lives in a different environment) or your goals (e.g. building a system that favors focused production of a few things for money or favorite plants when your goal is self-sufficiency) you are bound to fail. There is no magic in permaculture. Food forests do work well when they are fit to the environment and reasonable goals.
The form a food forest should take should be completely different depending on your goals and environment. E.g. for someone in the tropics with year round growing abilities and where the sun is abundant and capturing and using monsoon rain is a key part of success a more densely planted food forest can be extremely productive and maintainable because it works well with the environment and its challenges. In places like Kentucky (especially with what your expectations sound like) a 'food forest' may be more suited to sparser planting with lots of ally cropping so you can integrate it well with your other types of agriculture.
2. If your goal is self-sufficiency food forests in the vast majority of climates will do best in moderation (the extent depending on exact goals and environment). People are happiest and healthiest (and food sources most reliable) when they get varied food. Food forests provide for parts of that but they aren't generally a complete solution (and no sane person would claim they are). You aren't going to get much grain from a pure food forest and you aren't going to get much fruit or nut from an annual row garden. If you are aiming for self-sufficiency they are generally complementary not competing.
3. A major strength of food forests (and permaculture in general) is getting good results with less external input in the long term. This generally means you aren't going to reach peak yield. The reason this makes sense in the bigger picture is that yield per input has diminishing returns. Well adapted food forest designs can be helpful by providing significant value with minimal cost over time. Their value was never to be in replacing other agriculture but providing additional and different products, with comparatively low maintenance to more intensive/traditional methods (for the same things), and all in a way that integrates well with a larger system.
I hope you stay safe and healthy!
While you say this there are countless people on youtube who expain how food forests and a back to nature movement can feed the world.
@@CollegeHillFarm If you let people who have no clue what they are talking about be the leader's of the discussions and definers of terms then of course everything will sound like a bad idea. If you want to give food forests a fair evaluation you should be evaluating based off of people who actually know what they are doing.
I don't find it a fair comparison when you are comparing the ideas of uninformed proponents of food forests with your ideas as an experienced practitioner of your style (annual row cropping) when there are equivalent experts on the food forest side as well (including the people who actually coined the term).
Comparing things like that is strawmanning the other side. There are delusional people on both sides of this argument.
@@CollegeHillFarm If you want to respond to those people then adjust your title, claims, and wording to reflect that. Not all food forests are designed (if we could even call it that) by delusional people who don't do any research. Of course if you aren't only considering those peoples ideas its going to work out poorly.
While there is merit to what you are saying. Put up a rebuttal video. That is basically what this was.
@@CollegeHillFarm Yeah it is, but typing is much faster and it contains the same information and I don't have time to put too much effort into this. I'll probably publish all this stuff at some point (I do keep everything I write just in case the research comes in handy) but I'll wait until I have time to do it properly and probably just frame it more generally as I don't care particularly about calling you out but rather the more general misconceptions that many people have if they only casually learn about permaculture and food forests (e.g. correcting both people who think its magic and people who think it isn't ever practical).
This is my first video here . I like realistic homestead channels and this looks like one so I subscribed 😊
Welcome aboard!
Joel Goldsmith, Living the infinite way
yes
Prayers for you!
I love listening to your wisdom. I am out walking after dark tonight. It's a full moon. Your birds in the background singing set my quail to replying. Lol! ❤ 10 pm and quail hollering! LOL!
I will be waiting on this end for more wisdom from you!
Thank you
This was so interesting
thank you
Hey Joel, take care of yourself! Do what you can, and leave the rest.
Thanks Being Idle just kills me.
Praying for you...
Thank you
Read Living the Infinite way Joel Goldsmith, you don't need to pray
Great video. I agree that it is a very tough task to grow all the food a family needs for the entire year. I am sure it is possible in a way but with just myself and my wife and one of our sons, I can attest it takes a lot. We continue to expand our garden, learn how to can and preserve garden foods. Also last year put 2 pigs, several quail, rabbits and chickens as well as one lamb in the freezer. We burned through that pretty quick. It takes a LOT of work. I do think so many are being mislead to think they could just do it if they needed to. These skills take years to master. Also I get tired of the “make 100k$$ on just two acres.” Thanks for being a voice to counter balance any unrealistic content in the world!
Thank you. I remember a book I read back in the 70's or 80's called an acre and serenity. So nicely written but so wrong in many ways. Making a living off an acre while possible is not really doable.
Can I recommend the pdf of Tree Crops a Permanent Agriculture by J Russel Smith? 🙂
Thank you
I will survive, because I know what a deer, Rabbit, squirrel and other objects of life is available to survive !!!!!
Growing your own is a skill.
If you’re located near any major population center those deer will be locally extinct in months if there’s a food crises and mass starvation.
Yes. You will also have to guard you livestock as well.
@@CollegeHillFarm yup. This is why it’s very important you’re friendly with your neighbors and can trust them.
@miguelolvera2538 Yes!! We definitely need one another.
💙
thanks
I would agree with this message. I appreciate the honesty, especially since it's something I've long pointed out to folks. As a blacksmith, I've studied the traditional trades a goodly bit, as you might imagine, and I'm always impressed by just how much work our ancestors had to put in to get us to this point. If you've never brain-tanned a deer hide, give it a try some time and you'll really appreciate being able to simply go to a store and buy shirt to wear!
We need people who are willing to speak up and be honest about things, even when that message isn't going to be popular. There are hard truths that must be spoken, and if the good people keep quiet.... you can bet the snakes in the grass won't!
Often, I caution folks to think about how much work it actually is, and how that work is going to eat into their "free time". They'll still have to work a regular job. They'll still need some source of income. That means their days will be filled with chores before work and after. Weekends away will be a thing of the past because you wanted chickens and goats and orchards and everything else.
Contrary to popular thought, no man is an island. When Daniel Boone went out into the wild lands, he did so with the full support of his culture. He didn't grow the cotton and weave the thread to make his own shirts. He didn't mine the ore and forge the barrel of his trusty flintlock. And whenever he went forward in to the unknown, he always made sure to come back with information and resources that were vital to his community.
People are specialists, and it's the community of specialists that allows us to thrive. You get good at growing food, and I'll get good at forging iron into tools. That way, we can both devote ourselves to our respective trades and get good at them. If we have to constantly jump around trying to do a little of anything, we' cannot be nearly as successful. And that's why the food forest idea falls a little flat.
It's not entirely wrong. You can have a few chickens and a couple apple trees. You can grow a small plot of vegetables to help out. Just understand that it's work and it won't ever be enough. You'll still need clothes and electricity and all those other modern things you love so much. Nothing wrong with that, but go in with your eyes open.
Support each other. Instead of trying to be a jack of all trades, support the the people who have dedicated themselves to learning a trade in-depth. That's what makes culture and heritage. That's what's missing today because too many folks have forgotten that every garden requires work, and making tough calls.
yes I agree. The rise of social media has created an illusion for folks that for some unforeseen they can't see beyond.
Yeah, "homesteading" craze makes me wonder if anybody looks at a dictionary? We called it being a hippie a few decades ago.
yeah