STOP trying to get Early Edge Pressure! - What Does That Even Mean?
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- How do I improve my carving?
How to Carve Skiing Advanced
One Way to improve is to stay Light at the top of the turn.
What is Early Edge Pressure?
Great Question...
I Graph Carved turns by Ted Ligety to determine where the pressure is in the turn. My assertions about pressure distribution are backed up by the data from the CARVE SKI SYSTEM.
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00:00 Intro
00:38 Graphing a Turn
02:06 Joe's Turn Analysis
05:46 Ted Ligety
08:44 Wrap Up - Спорт
Hi Ski Dad, I recently came across a couple of your videos and they helped me increase my edge angle and gain control on steeper slopes. thank you . I'm interested to hear from you about changing edges, or a crossover, maybe make a video about it?
This is what its all about! Get out there and try to ski with a better approach to improve your carving!
supercool to watch Ted’s inside ski track- he is actually lifting it through the “floating” transition stage!
This video was by far the most challenging to produce and edit that I have attempted. It easily could have been a 30 minute presentation. I agonized over getting it cut down to 9 minutes. Please ask questions and thank you for watching.
Great topic and agree so misunderstood
Thanks Tom, it means a lot coming from you. Would love to take some runs if you make it to Deer Valley again this season
Yes, and great production as well. Cool format. Cheers, Tom
Thank you @triggerboy62 I have been watching your stuff for a while and along with @bigpictureskiing consider you guys leaders in the high end ski teaching world. 👍
@@skidadTV thanks for the compliment but your channel is super cool and definitely belong at the top as well. Keep it up. Cheers, Tom
Finally someone who thinks all that early edge pressure thingy is kinda questionable. Well done
PREACH!!! This is exactly what i've been working on, especially in gates, for the past 20+ years (coincidentally Ted was trying to drill it into me this summer at Hood) . . . Unfortunately I'm now old and washed up so there's no hope for me, but i think this is a super important skill for kids to learn especially for modern GS - if you're high pressure / high edge angle at the top of the turn, you have nowhere left to move in the middle of the turn, and the bottom, and you dump all your angle, pinch the turn/gate/apex, and lose versus build speed . . . much easier to get away with free skiing, but you'll always pay in the gates.
saying everything I have been saying for years about "early Pressure"
Props man.
I think people confuse early edge angle with early edge pressure.
Exactly! Early tipping of the downhill ski to the little toe edge. That in conjunction with driving that inside knee(gets the knee out of the way), allows for steeper and more grippy edge angles. It's evident watching Ted on each turn intiation that his first move is tilting to the little toe edge. All the other movements follow from that simple tipping. I don't know if it's easier to think of driving that inside knee or not, but my first move is tipping to the little toe edge, THEN driving the inside knee. None of it is worth a darn if you aren't counterbalancing and stacking yourself.
Jimmer's comments seem to echo what I understood Harald Harb to state re: little toe leading and a very brief bowlegged action. Yes?
No?
Yes, his videos do a good job explaining that move and that the move is very early. Many people fear that move, but keep in mind, it's not a full body weight move onto that little toe edge, it's just that you are leading with that tipping. Sometimes it's easier to visualize that instead of rolling onto the little toe edge, you can accomplish the move correctly by actually "lifting" the big toe of the inside edge. Sometimes, thinking in those terms makes that move to the little toe tipping less frightening. It's more of a mental thing. Also, many of the great carving videos now are doing a great job of showing that rolling of the ankles and knees WITHOUT coming up out of the bent knee position. The unweighting occurs in the transition, but not by standing up, but by bringing the knees up together and moving toward your chest(not moving your chest toward your knees). Anyway, I'm answering this comment on my phone, so I'll check my grammar later when I'm on the computer.
I strive for keeping my shins parallel and driving my inside knee.
I have never had any success with the little toe big toe thoughts
Agree
Also another vote to block JB
I did on my channel he’s a nuisance.
Excellent and thank you. It was worth the hard work and agony to get it to 9 minutes.
First time I have seen an explanation like this, loved the chart and visual video at the same time, well done!
I'm glad to hear someone else finally telling how the mechanics and forces are applied.
This is, I think, your best video. I watched it over and over to try and internalize what you are explaining to be able to put it in practice practice practice. I hope to get a step closer to where you two are with your top of the world skiing.
Thank you so much for your input. Your effort and philosophy is appreciated for sure. Would love to see you ski more as well in the videos.
Great video. I started skiing more the last two seasons and have a hard time keeping both skis on the snow in my turns. I recently been looking on UA-cam to check “how to carve”. This 60 plus self taught old fart really enjoyed this video.
Early edge but not early pressure. Pressure control is the more appropriate term. Ted shows that well here.
Exactly
WOW!!! Thank you so very much for this awesomeness!!!
Thanks for this video. For me, it was very informative. I was doing this but didn't understand what actually happening, now I know. Once it is clear to me I can train it for a better results.
Glad you found it helpful!
Totally agree. My version is : Pressure builds from Riseline until Center of Mass is satisfactorily redirected. Then Pressure rapidly diminishes and remains light until active re pressuring begins at next riseline.
You nailed it again. @johnbarnhart7174 you are better with words than I am!
Very much appreciate your ski technique explanations.@@skidadTV
@@skidadTVyeah, but I’m visual. Not too good with words.
Pls define riseline. Thx.
Riseline is the line directly UP the fallline from the turning pole in a race course.@@bobdavis2689
What I hear (a lot) is ”getting on new edges early”, perhaps it gets confused with ”early pressure”?
Great set of videos btw!
This is gold bro
Really helpful. If we had any snow I could try to put it into action. I think the more I watch it the more it will sink in.
Love it. well described.
Glad you liked it!
Yeah I always thought about it as early edging. I had some success in teaching myself and my clients not to rush the upper part of the turn but wait for the edge angle to increase and then engage with pressure from the fall line.
Yup, that sounds like a great way to go
From transition to apex, gravity is pulling you to the apex and you experience less pressure than you’d expect with the same turn radius as the finish. From apex to transition gravity is resulting in the buildup of the most pressure even though the arc may be similar.
True
Ski dad is so based! Ski dad can you make a video about inclination versus counterbalancing the upper body and the timing for this movement in the arc?
thank you
Thanks for the informative analysis. I think one issue with catch phrases like 'early pressure' or 'hips over feet' is that most things in skiing are relative to what's going on with the person the advice is being given to. Sayings like these might make total sense for one person and no sense at all for someone else. So in the case of 'early pressure' it might be good advice for someone who isn't getting much pressure at all until the end of the turn. Maybe they need to get more pressure at the apex to get the turn shape they want. It becomes a problem when such advice is just applied to everyone. Another example of advice or a catch phrase that I heard from a World Cup racer on Tom Gellie's podcast who mentioned he was trying to ski with his "hips over his feet' which sounds kind of crazy coming from a World Cup skier but apparently some coaches feel like some racers are getting too much extension so again it's all relative which is why it's really hard to figure your own skiing out with out a knowledgeable instructor or coach working with you on the hill.
Quite true @tlougee
My Hope is to more clearly define some of these catch phrases and give people who are "stuck" on one of these phrases with a misinterpretation and give them permission to do it their own way philosophical approach that makes sense to them
For my mental visualization, "having the confidence to throw your body down the hill, trusting that the new carving ski will catch it" was helpful.
Star Gazer. I will have an eye out for you this year
I just try to make the inside leg shorter by bending it, the more I bend, the more angle I get. I never think about the outside leg or pressure- only the length of the inside leg on the turn( more bend for more angle). that's it
A Harbie, huh? You're not wrong.
I agree with almost everything you say.
Of course you must have low pressures at the start of a turn and you increase them during the ongoing turn.
However there is one thing I do not agree with. You say that first there is the apex and then the top pressure occurs. I think this is not true. In my opinion, apex is exactly when you have the top ski-pressures with the highest edge angles during the whole turn and this is when the skis have already passed the directed of the fall-line. It is easy to look at the tracks of the skis. Where the tracks are deepest, it indicates the highest ski-pressures, or loads on the skis and apex is at this point, where the skis turn fastest, leaving the most rounded track form.
excellent outside ski pressure at 1:42
Early edging but light to start. Which is inevitable if your upper body is perpendicular over your skis, which is the MOST important element. (feels like pushing your upper body downhill). Pressure automatically increases as your skis come under your upper body. Really haven't had to focus on pressuring skis since moving from classic non-parabolic skis.
That's good thanks.
I reckon part of Ted's superpower is he steers/engages the tip, and pressures the inside ski edge more than us mortals too. Watch his old outside ski become the new inside ski transition. There is definitely power there.
What do you think the outside/inside ski edge pressure proportions are thru a turn?
Can CARV gives us that for your 2 examples?
That data is certainly collected, in my best segment ever the pressure was 72% on my outside ski.
@@skidadTVand how much on the new inside ski?
How does Carv work? I my Carv data the target is 88% outside, i am at 70% in general, only hitting 80% wenn i am really focused on outside ski pressure @@skidadTV
I’m not sure how it works but I am certainly impressed
Nice explanation about the forces, the float etc.
Now about the 2 skiers :)
Ski Dad @4:21 your shoulders should be leveled here ! You are too much inclinated, you should have started your angulation much more earlier and doing so gain lots of edge angle (with lateral balance) and power.
Ted is skiing with pivot, Ski Dad does not do this here.
About Ted you said :" float, float, pressure": that is right ! ...because of pivot :)
Ted is skiing here with a goal: lots of edge angle: pivot, angulation at the right moment, and continuing the turn after the fall line.
And you will notice @6:58 his Early Edge Angle, even if he pivots !
This is free skiing :)
early pressure early in turn is minimal but I dont think its zero? This minimial pressure its caused caused by the extension of the leg of outside ski primary new turning ski. But its called early pressure, its not called early lots of pressure. But your right, its more muscle timing than physical pressure other than the minimal amount applied to the ski because your standing up. Feeling wise it probably feels like a lot of pressure in your mind as your extending and putting pressure on the bottoms of your feet, but overall as compared with pressure in the later phases its 97% less. Pressure in the later phases is much higher due to resisting multiple forces all combining once you cross the fall line. just my opinion commentary. This an amazing study of this and should challenge the lanquage on early pressure though. based on your study it seems it shoudl be called early extension. Maybe thats what it is called in ATS or whatever its called now, I cant remember.
Well put @barkeater thanks for watching!
7.40 in the video: looks like Ted is leading the new turn actively with the inside/new uphill foot. Isn't this the waiststeering concept from a few years ago with Ted?
Great Video's, Are you PSIA certified, Just curious. Thanks keep it going.
I am level 3 certified and have my Children’s Specialist 2
I am proud of both
this is pro, for whom is going to be pro
Thank you for this very helpful analysis. Is the inside ski leading the outside one on the turns in relation to position, although not weight?
The outside ski is the driver. The inside ski may have some lead if that is your natural “hip position of power”
Your hip position of power is the stance where you can handle the load over the outside ski while maintaining balance.
My only thoughts that are inside ski specific are driving my inside knee and keeping my shins parallel.
@@skidadTV Thank you for sharing the tips. This is really useful.
Early pressure is feeling pressure on top of the turn (early edging) instead of pressuring the ski after apex only.
The LEAST amount of pressure possible to make the skis turn and hold is the objective.
Any EXTRA pressure than needed is 20th or 30th place.
Constant chair sitting position, never leave it, EVER.
Transition, Transition, Transition.
@@JB91710 The monumental effort is simply being able to sit in that chair and never leave it, that is a tall order. Wall sits making thigh strength abundant is the starting point.
Really nice video. Exactly the type of turns i want. I need some carving skiis though. I am an expert skier 73 kg and 180 cm (161 lbs and 5 11 ). What size do you recommmend for a non slalom ski? 175 cm ish?
173-177 cm 75-85mm under foot. In all these videos we are on “wide” skis. You don’t need a 68-72mm ski to carve. The wider ones are actually easier
@@skidadTV thanks. I consider a fischer curv gt in 175 cm. It
Is 76 cm wide. How tall/heavy are you?
5’9” 180
@@skidadTV thanks. Bought the 175 fischer da curvgt today. Carving ti.e
Looks like that inside shoulder and arm is tipping a bit. I wonder if there's a bit too much hip angularion too soon in turn
having almost no weight on the ski cut its starting to arc and be in position is what early pressure is.... I feel the work Early pressure is sometimes used out of context.
Exactly!
I see a flash of green on your Blizzard's. Are those Rustler 9?
Yes 22/23’
Think a lot of people got into this already, but what people are trying to get at with early pressure should be replaced with something like "proper/efficient transition". Essentially not rushing but not wasting any time by sitting on your old carve until theres no pressure left. You use the energy from your turn to let you start the transition and you/ted get full pressure way "earlier" than an intermediate would because it took them way longer to start getting edge angle or pressure at all.
Solid point 👍
Sorry to nit the video but the title seems to suggest something different than what your analyzing. There is early edge pressure that happens at the top of the turn starting with setup at the top of the imaginary gate pole and the line straight through the pole in the fall line. You seem to be looking at the result of prior actions and showing where maxim force ends up. Early pressure would be among other things putting high pressure on the tip of the ski to engage early with force like Hursher often does massively and at time bending the front of the ski a bunch while the waist and tail are not touching the snow. Also, just what happens in tight slalom, GS, SGS turn are quite a bit different.
One additional metric I would like to know throughout the phases of the turn:
The distribution of weight across both skis.
Are you consciously shifting the split to favour the downhill ski as you go from transition (50/50) to the apex, and if so, how much ? (I.e. 60/40, 70/30, 80/20,etc)
Or, do you actively maintaining equal weight on both skis at all times ?
The focus is certainly the outside ski. The actual pressure distribution between 70/30-90/10, but the focus and feel all comes from the outside ski. Because the transition runs through less than body weight pressure there really never is a point where you feel like your on both feet. It is more “right foot, float, now left foot”
@@skidadTV Great description, and thanks for the quick reply!
I look forward to trying out these tips in my upcoming ski trip in January.
Ted’s skis look ridiculously short given what everyone says is the ski you should be skiing. Do you know what ski he is skiing and what length?
I’m on a Rossi Sender Ti which is pretty great for off piste and our often chopped pow in Utah but I find it has 0 edge hold on any the info remotely icy which is making it hard for me to gain confidence in laying down carves on steeper slopes. Thinking about a narrower and more flexible ski. And in this video it looks like Ted is on a very short ski with who knows how much flex.
Ted is on a 183cm (ish) ski 88mm (ish) under foot
I learned skiing back in the late 70s -80s. I could parallel fine, and even carve fairly decently. But I was an advanced moderate skier and carving was a little tough with my 190cm straight skis. I’ve never skied parabolic skis, but they’re clearly better at carving than the old longer skis, and apparently skis are sized shorter these days.
Any recommendations on lengths, assuming a narrow to mid under foot width and a camber/rocker designed for a moderate skill skier? How is skiing on parabolics different than straight skis?
I’m 62, haven’t skied in 20 years, but I’m considering getting a set of newer skis because it looks like so much fun!
Appreciate any info, and very interesting video! I love the physics of it! 🤙
Get back out there flapjackson! I would recommend a ski 75-80 mm wide in a 170-175 length. You will want something that is “softer” relative to the other skis you are choosing from. These days all the companies are making good equipment so you can’t really go wrong.
You want “early rise” in the tip and camber under foot. Don’t worry about what binding or plate you get. That is more dependent on your budget.
If you stay within those parameters you can get a ski that will last you 100-150 days of skiing. So get a good one right away
1. Do it ! After 50 years of no skiing, I got back into it at age 67, over a decade ago. It seemed easy, compared to some bad experiences with straight stiff skis in my mid teens.
2. You didn't state your height and weight, which are big influences on ski length, in addition to snow conditions and your aggressiveness/ambition.
3. Actual snow contact length of the ski, influenced by its camber position, will also impact its length. For example, my Head e-Rallies do contact the snow relatively close to their tip. I'm 5'9", 150# and chose 163cm which is about eyebrow height. Seems about right, but the skis demand & reward aggressive skiing. They forced me to up my game and I've grown to love them for carving conditions.
Softer skis are more relaxed; more suitable for slower skiing.
That said, these Heads are amazingly stable at speed.
Trying lots of different skis is very educational. Demos and swap meets are great resources.
@@skidadTVVolkl Deacon 80 is approachable( forgiving) or Deacon 76 is more precise requires more skier input.
Some on mountain rental shops have really good stuff, go through a bunch before purchase. Check shops near your home mountain for demo program. My favorite advancements of the last few years is in the 75-85mm range. Consider an advanced lesson. You're going to freak at how good the clothing tech is now; no more frozen bandanas, but jeans are still the coolest ski pants. Grow a mullet
😂 A mullet! I wasn’t expecting that!
Early edge change.
Not early edge pressure. Just early edge. If you don't get on your edges early, you're going to skid.
I think you are misreading TL’s skiing. His ski bends before you say he has pressure, it could not bend without pressure, it seems his pressure is certainly earlier than you say in this video.
Hmmm, I had a pressure dot with increasing pressure before the full pressure apex and below…
@@skidadTV You miss my point. It is clear from the carved path left by his left ski, early in the right turn that he had pressure on the left ski much earlier than you implied. Not peak pressure perhaps but certainly whilst still traversing the slope Right to Left.
Maybe you're right, but at worst that would mean the pressure starts earlier but at a fraction of peak pressure. If you're out there trying to put pressure on the ski that early in the turn you're missing more important parts of the transition that get your skis in a position to make that pressure themselves as they start to change direction due to rolling onto your new edges.
Replying to myself here. If you focus on the edge roll, your pressure will show up. If not, you're either going to topple out of the turn or have the skis fly out the outside of the turn due to not enough outside ski pressure, or you'll fall over on the inside of the turn due to too much outside ski pressure too early.
I really dont get the point. Early pressure does not mean early max pressure. The peak is of course after the fall line, who has ever said this is not true?
Ted ski bend very early. But the ski can only bend if there is pressure. This is early pressure. The better the skier, the earlier the bending of the ski, the earlier the pressure.
Do you want to be a better skier? You have to increase the pressure at the beginning of the turn.
To much uperbody muvment
Is the upper body movement effecting the way the skis are working on the snow?
@@skidadTV i recomend u harald harb's pmts system!!!!
Do you really think I need lessons?
Groomers are for the meek.
Tell that to Ted