A Professional Editor Breaks Down The Rise of Skywalker
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- Опубліковано 23 жов 2024
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Come check out the writing choices (and missteps) that led to the conclusion of Star Wars!
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My favorite part was when Finn would risk his life to run and yell "REY!" and then make no impact on the plot.
Meh it's Disney. Finn was only there for the posters that Disney could point to and say "what "song of the south"!? Lookie here we put a black guy front and center for star wars! We're so woke and progressive! The force is female! Never mind accusations of out executives extorting sexual favours from young girls for a chance to star in movies! Buy tickets! We're so woke and progressive! Buy our merchandise too!"
Reminded me of the Heavy Rain "Shaun!" bug, where you could get the player character to continuously bellow the name of his missing son long after the moment he's found, making the following cutscenes much less tragic…
If it makes you feel better he did it twice. Double the heroism.
@@RoamingAdhocrat Press X to REEEEYYY!!
@@RoamingAdhocrat that comparison cracked me up
Around the 7 minute mark do you know what I realized? Having Rey join Kylo would have been thematically amazing. Kylo becomes central, Rey becomes sub, and the third movie involves Finn and Po battling to turn _Rey_ back to the light and having her take up Vader's mantle in casting Kylo down.
Not a bad idea.
That wouldve been a bit of a tough sell, and required some clever writing to come across well
Clearly something that the House of Mouse didn’t have in abundance
But they let J.J direct this shitshow and "mystery box" fucked everything up. And when The House of Mouse forced him to finally deliver he shait himself
this is all they had to do and they didn't.
like god forbid we get a BAD ASS EVIL CHARACTER.
Alternatively, they could have had her make an actual decision and join the sith temporarily to defeat Palpatine. Would have been more interesting that way
I've said it before, I'll say it again:
_This is why a trilogy of films needs _*_one storyteller_*_ with _*_one vision_*_ to tie everything together._
Otherwise, it's just a constant tug-of-war to get out of the corners created by the previous filmmaker's mistakes or unexpected choices.
Thank the filthy prequel haters for driving Lucas out.
“Why would I make anymore when everyone is yelling at you all the time about what a terrible person you are?” -Lucas
Just a shame that the true fans had to suffer.
@@basketballgirl723 Yeah, and nobody was hating on prequels until people told them to. Like, wtf is wrong with people? George wanted to tell a story, but just didnt execute it well. Yea his writing of dialogue was crap, but what about the overall Anakin's tragic story? The amazing battles? The overall expanding of the lore? Nah we just gonna hate THE PERSON, NOT THE MOVIE for trying to explain his worldbuilding better (which George Lukas is amazing at, give me another universe that is as good as 1-6 episodes of star wars), for trying to tell a story behind the first coolest villain ever. It's just so fucked up how people are so aggressive at things.
Poor George, I hope people will apologize to him.
@@basketballgirl723 Prequel hate got out of hand at times, but it also shows the benefit of the one creator, one vision approach. Lucas made changes based on feedback, like how Jar Jar was a badly implemented character that he minimized in later films. He still had a major part to play, getting manipulated into proposing giving Palpatine expanded political power, thus driving the story. Attack of the Clones had its own flaws, but Revenge of the Sith tied the vision together in a way I felt made it one of the best Star Wars stories. He stayed true to the story he wanted to tell, made mistakes but improved until the overall story became something great.
Unlike the Disney Trilogy which started off as a shallow ripoff held together with nostalgia, then responded to criticism in The Last Jedi by essentially giving the fans the finger and undermining all prior lore. Then in Rise of Skywalker they tried to tie it together with a mixed model of shallow fan service and salvaging the broken story arch, resulting in a mess that is both simplistic and convoluted. I think a trilogy can work with multiple creators, but not when one is just using nostalgia as a crutch and the other is working in opposition to both the prior lore and the other trilogy director.
Legacy of the Force books series. 9 books written by 3 different authors over the course of 3 years. Each author wrote 3 books.
Author 1: books 1, 4, 7
Author 2: books 2, 5, 8
Author 3: books 3, 6, 9
But by working together and focusing on what was best for the story and characters, they created a cohesive story that is honestly one of my top 3 favorite series in Star Wars.
@CHAOS CHAOS she gave them complete creative control. That's the problem.
Finn was such a WASTE. They had solid foundations there. Ex-Stormtrooper, naive would-be Jedi, and Rebel pilot dude. This should write itself! What numpties.
100% this.
The monkey writers didnt want to have Finn be the star of the series instead of MaRey Suewalker. Shame, they sacrificed his character potential for hers only for it to flop spectacularly.
@@patana256 "MaRey Suewalker" ---- Too funny!!!
After 15 minutes into the very first film he goes downhill. Man, what a letdown.
Funny thing is, someone on UA-cam actually made a rewrite of the sequel trilogy, and Finn actually has quite a large role in the story. The rewrite itself is surprisingly well made, switching people’s roles around so that they all have some part in the story.
"I am all the sith." " And I Am all the jedi." That is something I would have come up with as a kid playing with my toys.
The audacity of this movie to try to pull an "I am Iron Man."
@@Th3SmartAlec guess it's the same when lando said the line when all the rebels arrived
Falcon to Capt, on your left
"may the force be with you"
"tHaT iS sOmEtHiNg I wOuLd hAvE cOmE uP wItH aS a KiD pLaYiNg WiTh My ToYs"
Your childish insulting judgment doesn't demonstrate you're not still doing exactly that, for sure.
@@Terapagos3000 It wasn't an insult, it's genuinely how I saw that scene. Contrived like a child wrote it.
I am still waiting for Rey Hitler to fight Adolf after he becomes all the *****.
The whole basis of the trilogy was literally "Oh that thing is gone? just bring it back"
- Empire defeated? oh here's the first order!
- Death star destroyed? Heres a bigger one!
- Palpatine is dead? sike you thought
- Oh you weakened the first order after episode 8? here's a literal massive army that appeared out of thin air.
Feel like i could write an infinite amount of these. Piece of shit trilogy
[cough] All decisions that were made by J.J. [cough]
Sportnugget hate that guy lol
"History repeats itself first as tragedy, then as farce." Karl Marx. From this perspective, Star Wars have always had an element of rhyming, as Lucas called it. A Hegelian view of Star Wars. But Abrams philosophy was to take that farther, to literally make history repeat itself in the sequel trilogy with Ren as Vader, Rey as Luke and so on. And just like Marx noted, the second time it often turns into a farce. It did in his time with the moron emperor Napoleon the third of France, and that philosophy turned Star Wars into a farce too.
Really don't get all the hate jj gets for these movies. JJ did exactly what Disney asked of him for the movies. TFA was supposed to introduce new generation characters without alienating old fans, and TROS was supposed to bring back fans that felt alienated by the TLJ. TLJ was a terrible sequel. If it had been a standalone film doing its own thing, that's fine, but as a sequel it built itself up by crushing everything that came before it, and it wasn't even that great. The themes it wanted to explore were really cool, but they were almost all executed terribly. It was RJ just wanted to shove his own ideas into SW without trusting the next director to run with them. Which makes sense, since he did the exact same thing to JJ, who wasn't even supposed to direct ep 9. I'm not saying that excuses the bad writing in his movies, but trilogy was ruined by ep 8 and only a perfectly written ep 9 would've fixed that, except that would've required proper setup and planning, which it obviously didn't have
@@andresbarea-torres4131 Exactly. If JJ directed all 3 movies most of the problems people have had with TROS wouldn't exist, as plenty are there out of necessity due to Rian's actions with Last Jedi
If there's one lesson Disney/Lucasfilm/whoever needs to take away from this trilogy, it's that if you're going to have different writeres/directors tapping in and out, for godsake, have them coordinate with eachother.
Name Here it’s like it was conceived by 6 year olds, smashing action figures together and then ripping each other’s faces off over the control of the trilogy.
Would explain the power creep at least....
it's sad that they have to learn that... it should be the most basic thing...
They will not learn because they have no incentive to do so. These terrible movies are still fantastically profitable. And with tens of thousands of fake reviews posted to Rotten Tomatoes to achieve a stellar audience score, criticism doesn't seem to matter either. Finally, there is no escaping how Star Wars is simply such an institution that people (myself included) can't resist checking out the next movie, even though we all know it's probably going to be garbage. With the franchise still raking in the cash despite at least 8 of the 11 movies being somewhere between mediocre and terrible, I think it's clear that no amount of bad writing/directing/planning can fell this beast.
Seriously. How does a company that's planned an interconnected cinematic universe of 20-ish movies never say, "Hey, can we just hash out a rough outline, including who our main antagonist is, for three Star Wars movies?"
Honestly, one of my first thoughts after seeing TLJ was that it felt like it was directed by someone who had never seen TFA but had someone briefly describe it to him once.
MarredCheese I wish I could agree with you that there were thousands of fake reviews, I watched TROS with my Dad and his friends and they enjoyed it, my sister who has always been a fan saw it twice and liked it. I was so angry I would have left the movie theater if I hadn’t been with someone.
To me Star Wars has a problem with understanding what it is. We’ve had the same problems in every iteration of a Jedi/Sith storyline, plot contrivances that feel unnatural because they are. You have clunky dialogue, last minute saves that shouldn’t work but do because of plot armor. Villains that never learn from their last defeat (except for the PT because it was not about a hero rising but falling). I think in a lot of ways that Star Wars has become synonymous with it’s worst aspects not it’s best. I think this is in part to the fact that the PT was supposed to mirror the OT, that was how George constructed it and if ran together thematically.
I think Disney has a management problem with Star Wars we keep hearing the same thing on all of the shoots not having enough guidance having to call outside help to move the project in the right direction. In the ST I think JJ was actually the problem it gave us films that felt like we were retreading ground, TFA while different it feels like a re-skin of ANH, TLJ felt like three movies in one with it’s pacing and plot lines while I felt like it was the best out of the three it did not mesh well with the others. TROS was a dumpster fire, it was JJ not knowing what he was doing besides pandering to the fans on superficial level, and that is what JJ is good at, he does well in a genre that winks at it’s audience and says guess what’s in the box? But his ideology on story telling aka a mystery box doesn’t suite Star Wars, and if no one including yourself knows what’s in the BOX and they try to work with what you gave them well... you have problems.
8 year old me: then there was 10 Death Stars. NO. THOUSANDS.
Pitch it to Disney you might become a millionaire
Honestly sounds like the next trilogy. Does Darth Vader come back for no reason to?
@@sebastianking5271 No. TWO Vaders.
@@hyperion3145 no you idiot, a hundred vaders.
@@gufosufo337 they've cloned Vader a hundred times but removed all the good midicholorians so he's super double evil now. This is great storytelling!
They need a “show runner.” You can have different directors, tv shows do it all the time, but you need a voice to say, ” this is where our characters start, this is where we need them to end. You can hang the string how you want but start here end here.” Feige, and to a lesser extent, the Russos became the show runner for the MCU. You had wildly different movies from Takia Watiti and Ryan Coogler but where the characters ended from one movie to the next made sense within the universe. This felt like an anthology series...same actors but wildly different stories from one movie to the next.
You’re describing Kathleen Kennedy’s job
@@ApostleMan222 But she ain't doing much, eh?
Honestly, Rise of Skywalker gave me the same vibes as a bad fanfiction written by a 12 year old. Fleet of planet destroying ships and all.
Nah it is just a rip-off of Dark Empire but forgetting what made Dark Empire work. In that comic for instance the superlasers on the Star Destroyers weren't strong enough to destroy a planet just crack the crust and kill everything on the surface. They were also only two Star Destroyers with a superlaser with the second being a replacement for the first and finally, the Star Destroyers were as long as the Executor.
Tbh, I’ve seen better fanfictions, because usually they add something new (probably an OC or an extra chapter they would have liked to see) and make it work. This movie adds nothing new and nothing works. Writing quality be damned, at least the 12 year olds had ideas.
@@blakecook9266 That's wh it gives the same vibe as a BAD fanfiction
I think they wanted 12 year old fanfic wanters driving the viability of the trilogy.
As soon as they started force dyad’ing in the second movie, I just had to check to see if some fan fiction somewhere had the same idea for a romance story. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was one before TLJ tbh.
"If ever there is an episode 10, 11 and 12, maybe the writers should experiment with having a plot and a message developed as a course of the three movies" - WHOA! What an interesting and original idea?
Disney: We already payed $4.1B and we still have to come up with a plot?!? Ugh...
No more trilogies! Please? Not that 7 8 9 were
Whoa stop that, we as a society aren't yet ready for such radical ideas. Just add more explosions , fast moving lights and kisses to make the fans happy.
Hi! I'm an average western world consumer and I don't think I like that whole "developed plot" idea. However I did like this rising Skywalker movie because all the critical thoughts I had were numbed by the breathless spectacle that was hard enough to follow. I'm pretty sure the next installment should include more explosions, more lightsaber fights and raise the stakes by making a thousand of the fleets we've seen here.
They can all sit down in front of a white board and throw random ideas into the mix!
I would have really preferred:
•Rey being the daughter of nobody important.
•Kylo going completely dark (hello saber battle to the death 3.0)
•Finn turning the Stormtroopers by using his specific knowledge and experiences.
•Chewie and 3PO actually dying.
While I hate the Last Jedi dearly, I would've absolutely LOVED if she was a nobody. If they stuck with that, AND had her training for longer than 5 minutes on screen, it couldve conveyed a message on how anybody can be great. *but no dump it in the drain, here is Palpatine.*
Kelly Lingro you get one more 👍
Rey needed to be a Skywalker because she was naturally gifted in the force by being a descendant of the chosen one, every other force user had to study and train there ass off to be powerful in the force. it was also implied in The Force Awaken trailer 2 when Luke said " *the force is strong in my family, my father has it, i have it, my sister has it... you have that power too* ". but Kylo had to be redeemed and needed a head honcho bad guy so bring back palpatine and make rey a Descendant of him because he's powerful.
that's like if your grandfather was a Doctor you just know medical lingo without going to school.
@@Mhats That is a bullshit explanation because being a Skywalker doesn't ensure strong force abilities. Also, no matter who, you still need training. They actively shit all over the canon by making her good without training.
Apparently in Treverrow's script she was going to be a nobody from loving parents and Kylo Ren kills them. Rey Palpatine felt so desperate.
“Somehow palpatine returned”
I literally burst out laughing in the theatre. Other people were shushing me
Can’t believe they didn’t join in
The moment I recognized Palpatine in the beginning of the movie, I was like ´´Wait, is that Palpatine? Where did he come from?´´
You can see Oscar Isaac's soul die.
Jakob Nielson yeah but those times are generally considered the worst of the EU, and there weren’t other characters who STOLE Anakins legacy
I LOL'd so hard at the text scroll in the theatres. It just read like bad fan fiction.
"The Climax is meant to be where questions are answered not presented"
So basic.
You'll learn in any class about professional essay writing NOT to bring up new points/information in your conclusion. Send Abrams back to school!
@@Silas_MN What about cliffhangers?
@@memesjack3615 Cliffhnangers are not a climax of a Narrative, its one of a story. Narrative can span multiple stories. If your story has a cliffhanger, the Narrative isn't over :)
@@METALGEARMATRIX Thank you for the response. What about open endings? For example, Inception has an open ending and it's a great movie even though that ending breaks the rule of the comment above.
@@memesjack3615 Id say its actually the opposite of a clifdhanger in a way, if a Cliffhanger ending is a story ending but allows the narrative to continue, an open ending is a Narrative ending but a story is allowed to continue.
In this context I suppose the 'narrative' is the arc or journey of a particular character or set of characters
I'm still so mad that they wasted the juicy, brilliant, beautiful, freeing, powerful, and potent idea of having Kylo Ren step up and claim his own destiny by becoming the main antagonist of Episode IX... in service of resurrecting Palpatine via dark side power handwaves.
But then again, this is a script by the same writer who wrote a movie with Superman, Batman, and Lex Luthor in it, and didn't even once think "Hmm, Bruce Wayne and Lex Luthor are both billionaires who hate Superman at the beginning of the movie, maybe they could be foils for each other!"
I love the way you described Kylo facing his destiny!
Amen, man. Kylo being the central antagonist was *not* a problem to be "solved", like so many people seem to think it is.
I agree. Having Kylo choosing to still embrace the dark side of his own accord even after overthrowing his master was a great idea, and it would have helped to differentiate this trilogy from the ones before. But they just had to turn him into Darth Vader 2.0.
I was so hyped at the end of that movie for crazy Kylo and the subtle power struggle with Hux, but JJ Abrams managed to even ruin that awesome ending with a clear path to the next movie.
Forget Kylo, I was pissed off by how they wasted Phasma first.
"You are a Palpatine"
Supposed to be a monumental twist but I just laughed in the theater along with plenty of others. Embarrassing when your big twist is met with bemusement.
Yeah. Half of the people in our theatre laughed too. And I was one of them.
I did a big fist bump in the air and exclaimed yes! I loved the theory that she was a Palpatine since it was first put on UA-cam examining her fighting style, and somewhat explained why she was automatically good at everything including understanding Droid and Wookie languages. I guess I was just happy that they found something that somewhat patched all the holes ever created previously.
@@Jack_Stafford wow thats a stretch
Carter F I laughed so hard
@@Jack_Stafford She understood droid because she scavenged electronics for food rations. She knew how to fight because she grew up poor and alone on a harsh planet. Wookie... you got me there, but it seems damn near everyone speaks Wookie in Star Wars. Most of your complaints are still reasonably explained by her upbringing
10:37 not only did he get "YEETED" down a shaft to explode. He was also on-board the Death-star that EXPLODED. so this man survived TWO explosions. One larger than a NUCLEAR BOMB!.
Rich Hopkins there wasn’t enough of the Death Star 2 LEFT to fall through the atmosphere. It was blown to dust. This is why it’s strange to see such large pieces of it on the moon. That said, this isn’t earth. The atmosphere may not even be hot. But the impact with the moon/planet would’ve been devastating to a person’s body. But like I said... the Death Star 2 didn’t have pieces that big after it blew up. It was damn near vaporized.
It wasn't just larger than a nuclear bomb, it was an explosion that destroyed a small frickin' PLANET!
Um, are you stupid or something, the dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider unnatural.
@Stellvia Hoenheim No, Doomguy killed Palpatine in every single continuity that has or ever will exist.
"Palpatine" in Estonian translates into "Cyberdemon".
ScrawnyClownSnatch he survived because he hops UNLIMITED POWER
"I'm going to discuss bad writing professionally." "He got yeeted"
It's in the Cambridge dictionary 🤷🏽♂️ The modern state of the English language 🤦🏽♂️
@@dylantbsmith while the word "yeeted" or "yeet" may be recognized by the oxford language, "he got yeeted" was perhaps grammatically in correct. Perhaps "he was yeeted" or "he has been yeeted" sml
@@mactwolf the grammatically correct past tense of "yeet" is "yote"(like smite and smote), or so I'm told, so if you want to get technical....
Is there any other way to describe it?
@@Missingno_Miner Damned be your cursed "no no square", knave! Thou hast been yote! Away with thee!
"Never before had a Star Wars film focused on the mental and emotional struggles of a Stormtrooper".
No, but we got 6 seasons of the mental and emotional struggles of Clone Troopers.
Make that 7
Which they ruined but implementing a brain chip instead of letting the clones betray the Jedi because they're socially conditioned and genetically designed to follow orders blindly. It meant more. TCW contradicts the prequels more than anything
@@wxedsanddokx I think the brain-chip-concept makes the betrayal of the stormtroopers much more easily digestible to the fans. Which is not necessarily good, I just think that's why they did it. Because now, whenever thinking of their betrayal, it seems less "real", more like they were betrayed as well. I think it is fine, not the best way to go maybe, but ok
Jen Lucille ugh I liked that change because I love the clones and I hated thinking they could turn like that but at the same time the heart wrenching feeling it gives makes it have more emotional weight so I’m kinda torn on that
Except that the clones were the good guys. You'd feel bad if they died and you're supposed to. Meanwhile you're not supposed to feel bad for the evil henchmen, the storm troopers.
Great points about Finn's character being useless. Just think, if Finn did lead an uprising of First Order stormtroopers they could've marked themselves with the bloody hand. Could've been iconic!
The Band of the Red Hand? Hmmm, where have I seen that before?
Grant Hoggan You mean that one Clone Wars Episode where the clone has the commando droid hand mark on him?
Or if Finn didn't get stopped by Rose on the ice planet...
@@bluesolace9052 I'm making a reference to the Wheel of TIme here
@@Silas_MN Been a while, but was that Mat's group of mercs?
The only explanation for the movie is “the dark side of the force is a gateway to many abilities some would consider unnatural “
How dare you use such a perfect quote for such a bad movie!
Palpatine had the thickest plot armor of all Antognists. He was a literal personification of a god that could create life, manipulate society to do his will, and remain immortal.
@@zulumike3228 At least, in this film. Before it he had an understandable power level judging by who his master was. This film just ups him ×1000000000000000000000.
We know the dark side can be used to create life, maybe he could also create a gigantic fleet too?
..or "Somehow Palpatine has returned."
The first scene of this movie is literally a monologue saying “Forget that stuff that happened in the last one...”
Exactly what we all expected from JJ Abrams.
RJ set nothing up for the finale, aside from a romance between Rey and the major war criminal. No one could've written a satisfying finale to follow RJ's self-indulgent wankery
All 3 movies in the trilogy were that
@@georgegrogee5991 I could have. JJ is so cartoonish
The same guy who thought to put "This will make things right" as the first line of TFA as a middle finger to the prequels
@@sillygoose9791 And then that hack went back to remembering them in the last movie.
That breakdown of Palpatine’s plan was absolute gold
Critical Rants absolutely. Just categorizing it as nonsense, I hadn’t realized that by breaking it down, it’s multi-leveled, layered pure big-budget nonsense.
It's that meme with step 5 "???", step 6 "Profit"
@@lanny7683 It's even worse than that, as the "plan" for Rey to reach Palpatine involved an Assassin killing her parents with a Knife that is also a map that leads to the Death Star Wreckage containing another map, which leads to Palpatine....
And Palpatine somehow expected her to get the Knife, get the Map, find him and force this confrontation, even though this runs completely opposite to the first thing Palpatine does in this movie, wherein he tells Kylo Ren to kill have Rey killed.
Like, what if Kylo did that? What if he, or the Knights of Ren- or the many, many Stormtroopers they encounter throughout the plot, managed to kill Rey, per those instructions? Now Palpatine can't do his... body-hopping/life-draining nonsense anymore.
Unless he can do that, in which case "why was Rey important?" I see what they're going for, they're implying that Rey can be a new "host" body for Palpatine because she's in his lineage. But, like... again, what if she was killed? Did he set this all up knowing that Kylo and his boyband twerps would be incompetent at this one task? The 'plan' requires so much stuff that he couldn't possibly have foreseen, even with the Force.
Compare this to say, Ep. 6. Palpatine used himself as bait to lure the Rebel fleet into a trap. He allowed them to learn about the Death Star and where it was being built. as well as letting it slip that he would be there. Because he knew this would lure them into a fight they couldn't win.
And credit to Disney here, they actually worked to retroactively reinforce this plot point. As the first level of Battlefront 2's campaign mode has you playing as an Imperial Spy who prevents the Rebels from finding out that the Death Star at Endor is a trap. The question of "Wait, what if this-" is raised, and answered by its' inclusion.
But I defy you to explain how Palpatine could have foreseen allllll this stuff aligning just right, because it does not work. At all. He wanted Rey to find the map to him, but Kylo destroys the map, but luckily there was a second map that Kylo luckily had, which he left... on Mustafar apparently? (Yeah according to the Visual dictionary, that planet at the start with the trees was Mustafar).
Which means Vader was in on this, since Mustafar was Vader's evil lair? Good lord, this hurts.
@@Chatrbuug It's from south park. Underpants gnomes have a three phase business plan. phase 1: collect underpants phase 2: ??? phase 3: profit.
@@louislux hello, Louis-fren, yeah I know it's from South Park, but I was more or less trying to get the idea across.
how i thought the ending was gonna be like:
-rey kills palpatine
-rey becomes evil
-kilo ren fights rey
-rey kills kilo ren
-rey is like "oh my god what have i become?!"
-rey shoots big badguylasers to the sky, destroying the sheevfleet
-rey revives kilo ren and dies.
Never thought I’d say this to a random UA-cam comment with 2 upvotes, but that is actually a better story outline than what we got.
Wish Jar Jar Abrams saw this
They fkin kiss
@@sadface7463 I laughed and so for the Cinema where I watched this GG movie when that scene played
Wouldve been better.
It's mind-blowing how well Avatar the Last Airbender, a decade's old children's show holds up compared to movies and series that have so many well known directors attached to them.
Amazing isn't it, what a properly constructed plot with beautifully fleshed out characters can do?
Time for another rewatch.
As for Star Wars? It's time for me to move on to greener pastures.
That show was a piece of art..
@@kcrtxbw.4349 I love it! It's just the greatest!
"A decade's old children's show". That sounded SO condescending towards children. They are not stupid, they are just in the beginning of their way to discerning good from bad; and without good and thought-provoking things as examples their ability to learn that would be hampered. And... while I see reasons why it's harder to make/find quality art/books for children, that's no reason to just give up and feed them trash, hoping to make up for your parenting mishaps later.
Can't wait for the Nextflix version of the show.
@Neil1770053 has that ended yet? I'm so jaded by bad stories that I only watch shows that have wrapped up so I'm not burned by incompetent, lazy writing in the final seasons.
"Those three characters where there to op-Poe-se, Finn-ish and Rey-solve the conflict."
hahaha😂😂😂
What, no dad jokes from Papa Palps?
Stoppit
Just a thought: I'm not sure Kylo developing into Central Antagonist would have been a problem. Not all Star Wars Trilogies had a redemption arc. The prequel ends in a dark place setting the OT (in which the redemption arc occurred). The sequels could have gone the same way with Kylo; developing the character even further into darkness and giving the trilogy a dark end, setting up a future trilogy's redemption arc.
That would’ve completely contradicted everything about how he was set up, though. It would’ve taken a lot of thought and clever writing to pull off, which as evidenced by what we got, was not in the cards
Maybe not a redemption arc but I could imagine a case for kylo to become ever more powerful to return as the central antagonist of another trilogy. Being as Adam driver was the strongest element of this trilogy it stands to reason that you could develop a strong story around his ascendence to the pinnacle of evil.
Another way it could have gone is with Kylo Ren pushing the First Order too far, with him realizing that it has become something beyond what he is willing to take part in anymore, causing him to try and atone for his actions. An arc like that in the final movie of the trilogy could have worked really well.
I agree about the Chewie death scene being a potentially powerful moment, but instead of sharing your emotional experience, I was suspicious and confused. The trailers showed Chewie flying the Millennium Falcon with Lando so he couldn't really be gone and the moment in the movie was just confusing for me.
It was potentially a powerful moment, if Hans Solo's death wasn't predictable from Harrison Fords dislike of the character, Luke death from Rian Johnson's character assassination and Leia's death from real life circumstances. The direction taken by the Last Jedi to ridicule the character development of all legacy characters (including Leia as a general of the rebel army) and the regression of all male characters from the force awakens effectively promotes alienation and apathy from many different groups of fans from previous. The death of 1 main character from the episode 4,5,6 era per film was predictable. The treatment of Admiral Akbar who to some is a meme character deserving of his off screen death and urology sets the tone for any other memorable popular positive supporting character. Low expectation for their welfare was established in that movie and only morbid curiosity keeps me commenting on this waste of potential. Any of the episodes 7,8,9 could have delivered their message more effectively with better attention to internal consistency let alone treated as a single film told in 3 film length segments.
The movie was a disaster, I never felt for any of the characters while watching the movie because nothing was allowed to breathe, it was run here, chase that clew, look for that character, run away, fight, retreat run some more. It was such a shame because I felt like the sequels could have ended on a high note. JJ screwed the pooch again, in the worst possible way. Which is you look back at TFA you can see that oh he did what he always does a reboot or re-skin yeah.
I have read people got so angry at test screenings they walked out of the movie theatre. So, they decided to make it a fake out.
I had noticed the second lander too, so it was really weird to me that nobody else did, including the characters in the damn movie.
this exactly why i cant watch trailers anymore
First Film - Finn escapes First Order
Second Film - Finn defeats Phasma and makes speech about freedom to Stormtroopers
Third Film - Finn is a "silent hero" to Stormtroopers, many defect the army. Finn leads the ex-stormtroopers against final enemy.
Final Enemy should be Hux or Knights of Ren.
Sorry, we can't have a man show up Rey,
Finn must be the useless comic relief.
Agree. Imagine a scene where many Stormtroopers unmask like Finn did. Swell music. The Rebellion is reborn.
Except except one line those ex stormstoopers had nothing in common with stormtroopers. At least they could have used their old gear (excluding helmets so we could tell them apart).
TheDarthDestruktor Something I didn't know if wanted until after I left the theater
To be honest when I first watched The Force Awakens I thought Finn was the main character, not Rey. It just felt like they spent so much more time with him instead of Rey and he had a more interesting backstory as a Stormtrooper until they shoved him in the backburner for The Last Jedi and the Rise of Skywalker. It would've been so great to explore him as a character since he was Force-sensitive and an had an interesting character dynamic.
I wish he would have had to fight Rey when she turned to the dark side
It would have also been cool to have a different character "lead" each installment: Finn is the lead in the first movie, Rey in the second, have Poe or Kylo take it up for the third.
By making 9 movies split into 3 trilogies that tell 1 story: the Skywalker Saga, they essentially made the equivalent of a single trilogy.
Part 1 (book 1, season 1, first arc) the Prequels.
Part 2 (book 2, season 2, second arc) the OT.
Part 3 (book 3, season 3, third arc) the Sequels.
The problem (for me at least...one of them) is that the first 2 books, seasons, whatever, work together as you'd expect them to. Palpatine rules the galaxy and must be stopped. Anakin, the prophesied savior is still around, though he needs help as he's become lost to the darkness. And there are still characters from the first book who's arcs need closure, IE Obi-Wan and Yoda. Not to mention how the main hero in the second book (Luke) is set up in the first. As well as his connection to the story. All the set-ups in the first book are paid off in the second.
But the Sequels have no real connection to the first 2 books. It feels tacked on and clumsily forced. Hell, the main protagonist had no reason to even be in the story until the final act (TROS) and neither does the main villain! Not to mention how the 3rd book is effectivly just a copy/paste of book 2. I don't mind them using the same plot beats, but when it's so damned obvious it becomes a problem. The Prequels for example did an infinitely better job of using plot beats from the OT in new ways. Such as the assault on the Droid Control Ship in TPM obviously being a combination of both Death Star assaults.
Totally agree. Another awesome way that the prequels use OT concepts in new ways is the Battle of Geonosis. The ending of Attack of the Clones mirrors the beginning of Empire Strikes Back (both being the second movie of their trilogies). In Empire, the great political force who owns is the villains, who attack the rebels (heroes) in a desolate planet while they try to escape. In Attack of the Clones, the great political force with an army is the Republic (heroes) who attack the “rebels” (separatists) while they try to escape
The sequels should have frankly been focused on the New Republic being in a Cold War/stalemate/uneasy cease-fire with the remaining imperial remnants and the tensions rising from a rumored power entering the conflict to re-establish a connected imperial force.
By establishing that circumstances had forced the Rebels/New Republic into being unable to wipe out the empire the circumstances that establish something like the first order are far more believable.
If one of the imperial remnants fled to the unknown regions under Palpatine’s post-humous orders and encountered a well-trained inquisitor that was groomed to become the new Emperor we would have a basis for Snoke!
Alternatively the imperial remnant would have gone of their own volition into the unknown regions to hide from the NR where they encountered a Sith cult that fled when Palpatine rose to power (since they’d be competition) and either combined forces or entered a strange alliance that grew into something bigger.
Sith religion could have been an internal conflict for the Empire/First Order too! Hell, the old empire remnants absorbed by the NR would inevitably have Empire supporters that weren’t found guilty of crimes and would be eager to enter politics as a new or multiple new political parties; and sandwiched in between all them could be the First Order infiltrating as a political party to drum up support passively while working to unite the imperial remnants already absorbed into the NR.
These remnants could then be coordinating with the sovereign remnants to create a United anti-republic front that gets absorbed into the FO completely
The entire trilogy could have ended with the galaxy split between Empire and Republic, put into a stalemate where the hero’s stop the Empire/FO from overtaking the republic completely.
The only thing I would disagree on is the way you have the Emperor / Vader as the pair in Star Wars...I actually think its Tarkin / Vader - we don't get anything from the Emperor in that film, but Tarkin destroys planets, orders Leia executed and tries to destroy the rebels...
I agree, but Tarkin does mention the Emperor in one line, even if he doesn't appear as a character.
@@Ruylopez778 I always saw it as Tarkin being the Emperor's on screen representative. The Emperor is made all the more fearsome for being off screen but Tarkin carrying out all of his actions gives him some form of presence as opposed to being some passive guy in the background
@Kosdan I agree with NeonPhyzics. Tarkin was the one taking action in the viewers' eyes, not Emperor Palpatine.
You're right on that one. You have to give Peter Cushing his due. He is a fantastic actor and is a great villain in the original Star Wars.
@@kossend1 I think it's actually the reverse. _Vader_ is the Emperor's onscreen representative in IV. He's the one who physically embodies evil (as the Dark Side of the Force and a six-plus-foot guy in pure-black power armor), who escapes at the end to fight another day, while Tarkin gets blown up real good, and is the one who drives most of the conflict (as the builder of the Death Star, and the commander of the Empire's local forces, including Vader, nominally). I also seem to recall that Tarkin and Vader have a bit of a spat where Tarkin calls Vader the Emperor's lapdog, or something along those lines. Vader is basically an elite mook and an ambassador representative of the unseen Emperor.
Look at it from a plot perspective: What would change if Vader was removed? Obi Wan's death, a few X-Wing pilot's deaths, some cool imagery, and a bit of exposition about Obi-Wan and Luke's father's pasts and the nature of the Force. Vader's not meaningless, but he really doesn't contribute much to the plot, and is more of a greater scope villain.
I quite like the idea of Finn trying to start mutiny among the First Order's soldiery. Could've been a plotline for movie 8 & 9. Shame they didn't do it. Good call!
It might also help with all the thinkers in the audience going: "Wait is this genocide? There's a lot of stormtroopers/clones on those ships, are we going to let them surrender or just burn them all?"
The entire sequel trilogy is a rather fascinating case study in how not to write a story or make a film. While it sucks a franchise had to be sacrificed for this, we now have three films that excellently show how to fail and what you need to avoid.
There is a certain motto called "fail faster", and the whole sequel trilogy should be regarded as a case example.
THAT IS TRUE!!!👍👍👍
yeah....I am not sure Bob Iger saw it that way
also how not to handle a trilogy
Even tho I love 7 and 8 I do agree w that statenment
9:00 WORD. I was so ready to see Adam Driver go full Shakespearean tragic villain.
6:00 Damn... this makes me so mad they didn't do that exact thing. Kylo becoming the Central Antagonist would have been utterly brilliant.
They actually did do it for the third act of The Last Jedi. I was caught so off guard when I watched it the first time in the movie that I actually liked it a lot :)
TROS is the one that messed that up. Woulda been great if they just went off what TLJ set up
@@hefoughtabear118 This right here. Committing to what was done in TLJ would have been infinitely better.
Jeebus I wanted the non-redemption arc so much.
i could have been fine with the redemption arc, but if he survived and had to work to redeem himself instead of just redemption via death which weve seen before and is boring
This is what Colin wanted to do as well :(
Same I was intrigued by the way The Last Jedi set up Kylo to be the main antagonist with full moral responsibility so much. Such wasted potential.
Gotta please the Reylo fans, I guess.
Tho it's so dumb to put Kylo in the EXACT context Vader was redeemed, just to have him reject that redemption......aaand later redeeming him in a way that parallels Vader even more, Palpatine and everything.
@@matti.8465 They could have even redeemed him and leave him alive so he could face the resposibility of his crimes and try to fix them or something like that... but no they did exactly as before. Too scared to leave out the template :(
6:25 "Star Wars is fundamentally based around 2 things." I seriously expected you to say that 1 of those things was toy sales.
Bro word haha
For lucas, yeah!
The fact is they walked into this trilogy with absolutely no plan and no overarching story to make the trilogy cohesive. Plus they let the directors write whatever they wanted to write, instead of submitting to the overarching story line/plan that still to this day does not exist. This is why in of themselves each movie as individuals movies are good. But as a trilogy its THE MOST disjointed garbage I've ever seen.
No, individually these movies all suck in their own right....
@@bikebudha01 Each one has some individual appeal, if you also remove the title of star wars from it.
But yes, overall they are mediocre individual movies at best
It's ridiculous. You have JJ in TFA setting up mysteries that need to be answered. Then RJ in TLJ scrapping them all and apparently making a point that the Force is for everyone (which is a good idea to get away from bloodlines and Chosen Ones). Then JJ going back to bloodlines, forgetting Broom Boy and bringing Palpatine back!
@@oliverford5367 It makes a ton of sense what The Last Jedi did when you listen to how JJ Abrams builds up his "mystery box". Basically he generates hype around something even he doesn't know the answer to, so Rian Johnson was just like "fuck it, Kylo is cooler and actually makes sense", and chopped Snoke's head off.
K I had to stop reading when you said "the individual movies are good." No, they just suck, they suck even worse as part of Star wars canon that used to mean something until they turned it into "Plan 9 from outer space".
I know it's a simple compliment, but I really enjoy how well structured, organized, and logical your videos are. Great content, guy. Keep it up c:
Jar Jar Abrams: a man with SO little creativity and imagination that he 1) did an almost exact re-make of A New Hope, then had to 2) bring an old character BACK FROM THE DEAD.. because he couldn't think of anything better! Sad.
Sure but TLJ didn't left much for JJ to work with.
@@persona83 well thats just not true now is it? A clean slate with no Snoke so you can really explore Kylos character and the way he leads the First Order. Rey having to fight for herself since Luke is dead, making it a more difficult and therefore interresting struggle. The Rebelion in shatters having the need for them to rebuild. ( The return of the Jedi did the same thing, where everything is basically fucked at the end of The Empire strikes back and did a fine Job with it) Exploring infighting in the First Order other than "Oooh im the Spy because I hate Kylo so i want him to lose" I mean Jesus. Thats some weak ass motivation.
So I wouldn´t say JJ had little to work with. He just dropped everything he had to work with because fans lost their shit over The Last Jedi and Disney got cold feet and wanted to please fans and nothing pleases them more than name dropping and the return of already established characters (example for that were the constant fan theories who Rey is related to and the outrage when TLJ revealed she really was a nobody. Because you cant have a power full Jedi/Sith without him/her being related to someone we already know.)
Classic example of a big corporation bending to the will of the people. Sadly people are idiots who dont know what they want most of the time.
@@persona83 Plenty of stuff to work with in a star wars universe with a shit load of ideas. What I think most people don't understand is that, JJ's derivative ignition into the Disney era, constrained the imagination of future writers and directors. Very few artists in history copy stroke for stroke the artistry of another. He passed a torch that featured no new ship design, derivative plot, a wanna be darth vader, an old man's jason bourne in Rey, a storm trooper that lies and runs, several desert and snow planets, a bootleg palpaltine...he essentially impeded the imagination of the people who'd like to create for the universe.
The force awakens feels like it was made by a comittee and or research groups that scan social media sites for requests.
Like most art in history, The Last Jedi feels like the artistic expression of the individual.
It’s heavily speculated that either Disney or Kathleen FORCED him to use Palpatine. No tangible proof of course, but wouldn’t surprise me that they would force him to use an established character instead of a new one.
Grapthar's Hebrew Hammer aside from plot holes and the boring casino planet stuff... if “The Last Jedi” had been a Star Wars side story about different characters but with the same story it would have been MUCH more well received. Probably even loved by fans. Of course you’d hafta change the beginning and ending a bit so it doesn’t seem like a center-of-trilogy film, but the story itself had fantastic potential. But what was done with the characters was absolutely insulting to fans and the legacy actors.
25:51 "Han died meaningfully in Episode 7. Luke died in Episode 8."
Probably over-analyzing here, but the omission of the word "meaningfully" in the second sentence seems deliberate.
Luke deserved a better close out than what he got. He was basically written off to push Rey to the forefront of the story since no one gave a shit about her and were simply waiting for Luke to return to the main story line.
Luke's death was completely pointless. It achieved nothing.
@@e.l.norton luke saved the surviving resistance members and sparked hope in the galaxy. Not pointless
@@JACKTHEBBTFAN I think he meant narratively it achieved nothing.
@@e.l.norton did you watch the epilogue? His death inspired the children of the galaxy! His death was the "spark that will light the fire that will burn the last order down." One man facing off against an army and becoming a legend is a powerful symbol that the everyman/underdog/galaxy can rally behind. His death wasn't pointless in TLJ but it was made so in RTOS because the people of the galaxy didn't come to fight the final order because of power of Luke's legend, but because Papa Lando said: "hey come with me."
24:08 "They did the best that they could"
I'm afraid I'm going to have the push the disagree button on that one.
Great comment. They literally do this for a living. If that was the best they could do they should try their hand at selling cars, because their best at film making isn’t good enough!
The ending to episode 6 leaves you in the exact same place as the ending to episode 9. There was no progression in the story, and that's what bothers me the most.
The sequel trilogy is useless.
Episode 7 was interesting in that it presented the first order. It showed that even though the empire was destroyed that there were some that were still trying to keep it's reign.
It would have been far more interesting if the movies told the story of the republic coming back into power and the struggle it would take to gain the control over the galaxy.
Instead we got 3 movies that told the story of basically two rebellions going at it. Sure planets got destroyed, but it was a quick scene that didn't mean anything. Never explored to show the impact of that action.
What was the point in destroying the first order if you aren't going to try and fix the galaxy yourself? What have the rebels been doing this whole time? Why hasn't someone tried to re-establish the republic? The rebels can be seen as terrorist. I'm sure the galaxy would have been a lot better without them. It's not like the rebels want to rule. They just want to destroy things because they don't like how things are ran.
You look like the physical embodiment of r/niceguys
@@ryanblack8392 it's that hat isn't it? Psh, shit is classy. I look like I was just dropped from the greatest generation ever.
I agree if the movies were going to portray the rebellion as a benevolent cause, they didn’t portray it well
I thought the republic was re-established? Isn't that what the New Order is going after with their intra-galactic laser gun in that 10 second scene? I think the fact that I'm not even sure myself indicates that even if that were the case, it wasn't very clearly communicated. I agree, I would have been really interested to see some focus on how the republic had been rebuilt, and actually clearly define the resistance as being this fringe group who are solely committed to fighting the New Order.
Jeff Stiff agreed
The choice of Rey being a Palpatine kind of actually undermines the whole inclusivity/feminist 'agenda' that I see some people claim to be a problem with these films. By making Rey a Palp, they are basically affirming the fact that bloodlines matter; what you are born as matters. Being born a Palpatine makes you a certain way. If they really wanted a more inclusive and feminist story (feminism in the broad sense), rewrite the perception of the Force being a genetic predisposition, don't rewrite Luke being an old hermit who ran away from his friends.
Personally I dont mind Luke running away, but I wish they made Rey a nobody. The best decision of TLJ was ruined by ROS.
I don’t understand how Luke running away undermines inclusivity? He ran away because he had the thought that killing Kaylo could keep him from becoming a problem down the line (technically true), who understandably freaked out at waking up to see his uncle standing over him with a laser sword and turned against him, presumably taking a bunch of Luke’s students when he left the burning ruins of whatever school Luke’d managed to set up
Besides he had a whole trilogy to himself, having him take up a protagonist slot i this one would be kinda silly
Agreed. Making Rey’s heritage matter makes the Force itself a lot less interesting, as it tells us that only people like Skywalkers or Palpatines can be strong in the Force, and thus that your bloodline is what makes you special.
@@Flowtail Yeah sorry, I didn't mean to say that Luke running away undermines inclusivity, just included that due to my butthurtedness lol. But Luke running away is a problem in my mind because the fundamental driving force for him in the originals is to help his friends and the people he cares about, and one of his final lessons is that he can rely on his people. Therefore it makes little sense for him to abandon everyone to a destruction that he indirectly caused. That could indeed happen, but then, I think, they should have explored why he chose this and exploring that would take too much runtime away from the new gen. He certainly doesn't need to be a protagonist, but they didn't need to destroy his character. Like, just leave him be, man, we love that fella.
Fif Gallag it sorta makes sense and was an interesting move until you realize that Luke as he is established would never have tried to kill his nephew after merely sensing darkness in him. Why? Because goddamn it he actively wouldn’t let himself kill his father that he KNEW was evil because of the chance to redeem him. It’s not entirely Rían Johnson’s fault though, the idea of Luke being a hermit is neat but they really were written into a hole by the decision to have him hiding in TFA
The more I think about, the more I realize that Rey should have taken Kylo's hand in Last Jedi.
It would have been so cool! and taken the story on a very different direction :) but oh well.. u_u
Tha'ts why I can't take the argument "TLJ is a new word". It's tries and promises, but the anticipation is for nothing. So what's the point? I disagree with SB that TLJ was a step forward or whatever. It was just a thought, a try, an effort, that was subverted by movie itself.
@@hairflames In its eagerness to deconstruct the Star Wars mythos, the Last Jedi forgot to actually build something else to look forward to. It feels like an incomplete film IMO.
@@hairflames I honestly am not sure what you're saying, but I think The Last Jedi was a step forward. Force Awakens is New Hope but bigger, The Last Jedi tries to expound upon the ideas about the Jedi brought about in the prequels. I just wish it did more. Point is the Rise of Skywalker could have been better, but J J Abrams and company really wanted Kylo Ren to be redeemed.
Imagine it: Rey is convinced he can be saved and joins him. Finn shows a flash of the Force in rescuing the last of the Resistance. Rather than train Rey, Leia trains Finn. Finn faces Rey as the secondary antagonist. He finally convinces her that Kylo Ren cannot be redeemed, so she rejoins the light and defeats Kylo Ren and mourns his destruction of the Skywalker legacy.
Fun fact: originally, rather than the kazoo-and-shittyflute combo of the SW them, Savagebooks and I recorded us just screaming the theme, off-tempo, and with fart noises. He elected not to use it in the end. Perhaps for the best
#ReleaseTheMaxSavageCut
Why?
The kazoo fits perfectly with Disney star wars.
It couldn't have been any more annoying than what was used in this video.
“because [avatar] does a lot of what Star Wars attempts, but better.”
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
"because [avatar] does a lot of what Star Wars attempts, but better.”
"Shut up baby, I know it!"
The force lightning in this movie was just straight disrespectful
Anthony Villani why?
@@harrisoncora4259 I hope that cleared it up because his answer was very in depth and accurate.
Emma Kielty pi
Emma Kielty thank you so much for this! This is a perfect explanation of how the film destroys current cannon and lore. If the Dark side was just so easy to acquire then the whole of Revenge of the Sith and the transformation to Vader would not have happened. Anakin had to commit terrible acts, kill younglings and fellow Jedi...why...because the dark side of the force allows the user to harness such power some consider to be unnatural...powers that can not be learned by a Jedi...then just like a wrecking ball in comes Rey...😣 I want to enjoy these films I really do...but as much as George messed with Cannon an lord and special editions, the man cared about the lore and universe for it to make sense.
@@emmakielty5552 that was just a hint at reys true heritage and showing that she is definitley not a true jedi.
Kinda have to disagree with the idea that Kylo "chose [the Dark side] with no ambiguity" argument.
1. In his dialogue to Rey he specifically mentions the Sith among the things of the past that need to die (can't remember if that also included the Empire, but I won't add that because I don't remember the exact lines well enough). Aka the "old ways" of the Dark side. Which is interesting because around TFA the creators of the ST mentioned that Kylo and Snoke were specifically not Sith, and a lot of people speculated around the time of TLJ that a new "Gray Jedi" could be created at the end of the ST. So who's to say Kylo couldn't have tried (or at least intended to do such a thing) with Rey at his side?
2. He doesn't ask Rey to join the Dark side, he asks her to join him. It's explicitly coded as a romantic proposal, not like Palpatine's "fight your father and take his place as my servant" thing Palpatine did with Luke in ROTJ.
3. You forget that earlier in TLJ, Kylo stayed his hand from killing Leia yet watched her be (as far as he knew) blown to smithereens by another First Order ship. This means that his parents are both dead and his uncle is still against him. As far as Kylo knows, joining the Resistance isn't an option, because the only link who could possibly reconcile the rest of the Resistance to the idea of Kylo/Ben being good all along was his mother, and she's dead.
4. Luke and Leia's dialogue on Crait. "I can't save him" from Luke implies that Kylo is irredeemable at first, but then Luke says "No one's ever really gone" in response to Leia saying "my son is gone."
5. The final shot of the movie shows Kylo kneeling in the dirt with his back to the light, clenching his fist around his father's heirloom dice as they disappear from his grasp, and then staring brokenly at Rey through their Force bond. That's not symbolism that indicates a fully dark villain who has no regrets about his decisions.
On top of that, TLJ already set up Hux as the next main antagonist from the scenes where he tried to shoot Kylo before he woke up, their constant clashes of command on the battlefield, and then Kylo being humiliated as a leader in his first battle as the Supreme Leader. It would've been a bit weird to have the threat of the final movie be a political/purely mundane threat, but the writers still could've played on Kylo and Rey's Force powers, ESPECIALLY Rey's butchered potential to fall to the Dark Side. I just take umbrage to the idea that TLJ "established Kylo as the main villain"/irredeemable when everything from Adam Driver's acting, the visual symbolism, the themes of the Star Wars franchise, the budding romance with Rey (you can't tell me they would put in them learning about each other's pasts and touching hands just to throw it away and be like "nah he's too evil, not gonna happen"), and the actors'/director's commentary on the story indicated that Kylo wasn't gone for good yet.
ANYWAYS I do still agree that throwing in Palpatine was a bad idea and seriously compromised the idea of Kylo's redemption being pulled off solidly. It's even more egregious since why would Kylo team up with the guy who put his family through hell and manipulated Kylo himself his whole life, when in the last movie he just demonstrated his willingness to kill anyone who tried to make themselves his master?
TL; DR all of it but the first couple of paragraphs, I concur. It WAS ambiguous and hence TROS was a complete let down for the Skywalkers and storytelling in general.
DestinyGaleAries This is spot-on. Thank you! 👏👏👏
Yeah i was really confused that he had virtually no emotional reaction to palpatine revealing he was his sole manipulator. As much as i enjoyed driver's performance, his character was heartbreakingly robotic in tros. It was so disappointing because up until this point, his performance as kylo has been the most complexly emotional and expressive character to ever grace star wars.
The First Order are literal space Nazis. Asking Rey, romantically or not, to join his genocidal regime is 100% a move to evil.
Also, I just watched that dialogue between Luke and Leia again, and I had forgotten how much of perfect example it is of how tone-deaf Rian is. The bathos in that scene about her hair is so ludicrously out of place in an otherwise melodramatic scene - that even continues after - it's just ... mind boggling.
But to your example.
Luke: *I can't save him*
Leie: *I know my son's gone*
Luke: No one is ever really gone
The above is not an example of how Luke thinks Kylo is redeemable and it's quite a stretch to pretend it is.
Especially considering Luke then goes on to antagonise and mock Kylo even further.
Agreed.
Plus: I hate the concept of the SW movies "if you are dark side you can't be good" when in reality dark side was just ajother aspect of the force with a different approach of using it and being strong.
Dark side users are not necessarily evil.
The sequel trilogy was a huge opportunity missed.
There was one moment though that could have redeemed it and turned it into something that at least was interesting. In Episode 8, in the throne room, after Kylo Ren had killed Snoke he offered his hand to Rey and asked her to join him. And she said "no". What a waste. They had been foreshadowing this moment right throughout the film and she straight up turns him down. The whole series could have become way more interesting at that point. The girl we thought was the protagonist then becomes the new antagonist. The resistance is left with Luke and Leia as the only two force users (although Leia really should have been dead at this point). One of these is in a coma and the other one is a hermit who refuses to engage with the universe. All of a sudden the stakes become real. The most ridiculously powerful force user we've ever seen is now a bad guy and the potential for interesting things to happen is boundless.
But Rey says "no" without a second thought, Kylo does what he does and nothing interesting at all happens for the rest of the series.
I actually enjoyed Rise of Skywalker, but mostly for the visuals and musical score. It was a bad movie that followed on from a bad movie, which followed on from a bad movie.
Every choice they made was simultaneously bland and maddening.
TFA's flaws could be built on to turn it into something great, but instead we got this...
This was the last chance we had with the original cast, and Luke, Leia, and Han don't even share one frame of screentime together. Absolute joke.
Making Kylo villain would have been the best option, but there is another problem: Kylo never won. You can make any excuses as to why he didn't win, but the fact remains that he still didn't succeed in anything against main protagonist. It cheapens the threat he posses, especially after Luke is making fun of him in Crait.
Snoke dead, Phasma dead, Luke dead, Hux is a joke, Finn and Poe arc seemed to be finished, there's little to work with.
You're right that Kylo as the villain would have been the best option, but the not-winning problem could easily be remedied in IX. Just have him win a number of times leading up to the finale, at which point Rey finally defeats him or whatever. TLJ presented a number of masterstrokes of writing, and TROS just totally flubbed the catch on most of them.
He was kicking Rey's ass with ease during their duel and the only reason she jabbed him is because Leia died and for a brief moment he was caught off gaurd. He also was stronger when pulling the transport with the force... Not sure what you mean. He was obviously more powerful than her in this movie.
In the first film Kylo was pathetic. In the second he is still kind of a mess, but he is finally able to kill Snoke. The third film reaches a climax with him finally, unambiguously winning. The trilogy thus becomes the tale of Kylo Ren's struggle against the odds to reach the top despite all doubts.
... obviously we can't actually have a villain winning in the end so at that point we needed to have him be defeated mentally rather than physically. We actually almost got this with him defeating Rey in their duel, before being redeemed by Leia's sacrifice. Before TRoS I had the idea of having Rey, lying broken at his feet, asking him "Are you happy now? Was it worth it?" causing him to look upon his empire of ashes and finally being redeemed, prompting some heroic sacrifice.
Actually he was mostly even against Finn in the first movie, after having apparently years of training, and the loss to Rey made consistent the idea that Kylo was a joke
Exactly. Rian Johnson did a piss poor job setting up Kylo Ren as the main antagonist. You erase the Crait scene and we may have a chance to make Kylo Ren respectable. After he acts like a unstable man child he can't be Supreme leader of anything.
I really wish that the sequels had gone a more sociological route with the narrative, kind of along the lines of the prequels but good. I also wish the story of the sequels were about how to preserve democracy/community in the face of it's own flaws (a timely subject). Like, we got the story of an empire falling, and a democracy falling, and I thought the idea of a story about how a democracy is preserved would be a good endcap to the arc of the star wars narrative.
Then the republic dies in movie 7 and I realized that we were just going to have a rehash of the originals.
Yes!!! I went into The Force Awakens imaging stuff along those lines. How did the First Order even attain such power in such a short period after the fall of the Empire?
@@SKyrim190 You literally had to go home and read about it in Wikipedia. That's how bad JJ is as a film maker.
Actually the PT did a good thing with the politics and the context with the world building. Watching the fall of a republic and the rise of an empire was well structured IMO.
Because of this reason, I loved the Canon book “Bloodline” as it depicts the struggles within New Republic through the eyes of Leia. It shows how Resistance emerged opposing to First Order that was unheeded by the Senate. I really dislike how the Sequel Trilogy wanted to handle things by sweeping aside the political sides of the story.
I hope they make a film based on New Republic and how it fails.
There was something in the Finn/Rose plotline of TLJ that could have been a very cool thing to explore. While talking with DJ, its implied that the rich folks hanging out in Canto Bight are funding BOTH sides of the conflict. Like, imagine how mind blowing it would have been to look at this seemingly never-ending conflict in terms of who is ultimately profiting from it? Imagine how Finn could have used that information in a third movie as character motivation and giving him plot line? It would fit in with the idea of this video in using Finn to convince the foot soldiers to lay down their arms because the real enemy wasn't each other, but the hands that were pulling the proverbial puppet strings.
Rey: "I'm Rey Skywalker."
Me: No you're not. You don't deserve that name. You're Rey Palpatine.
That should've been the old ladies next line...."BISH you lying....the Skywalkers were cool.!"
she can't be a Skywalker, she never lost a hand!
@@johnythefox100 Even Palpatine lost a hand (Mara Jade) :P
But what about Leia?
Lei even told her to 'own who she is'. so much for that....
bikebudha01 Yeah the entire moral of the story was that no matter where you come from their actions don’t define you
Just wait till they do the collector edition re-release where they cgi Snoke into Palpatine, add baby Yoda and a musical number during that festival in the desert.
I already have my preorder paid in full!
The fact the three main characters were just three people that got caught up in an epic adventure together, I couldn't wait. They weren't bound by destiny or family to save or defeat, join or betray, it was just them and their experiences that dictated it all. There were so many possibilities! But it looks like they had never decided which route to take, even by the end of the last movie. And that's what really killed it.
Also, I think Rose was tragic lost potential. She was like... the people's champion I thought. The war was very personal for her, not just morally right. The things the First Order did to planets and their people directly affected her as a child growing up. She lost her sister to them. She was mourning but angry and determined. They could have replaced Lando with her in the end to bring in that enormous civilian fleet because she WAS one of those civilians.
Rey was the powerful force user, Poe was the fighter pilot and potential leader, Finn was the ex-stormtrooper with First Order intel, and Rose could have been their connection to the people.
Our three new main characters didnt even meet together until the end of the trilogy
Rose could have been great... but then she released a bunch of animals instead of the enslaved children & I couldn't take her seriously anymore. Also borderline sexually assaulting Finn, like wtf...
@@oinkleberry Not borderline it is flat-out.
Poe was destined to die in tfa, they decided to change it but they don't change his story, so he just appeared some minutes and alive in the final. That one of the main characters was one that was destined to die said a lot of the plans for this trilogy.
Just the image of Finn getting others to defect by using the comms towers nearly made me cry! They wasted so much potential on him. This is the first of your videos that I've seen, definitely gonna check out more!
In JJ Abrams' defence, this was always going to be a JJ Abrams film. What were you expecting, a coherent story ?
My reaction to hearing he was going to direct IX was, "JJ Abrams couldn't deliver a satisfying conclusion to a knock-knock joke."
He's a hack that makes distracting lightshows, not movies.
That's... actually the most convincing defense of JJ's Star Wars I've ever witnessed.
LOL Screw off. JJ KNOWS how to make a coherent story, it's just there was alot of baggage having to be dealt with this last film! That's ALL!
It makes me angry that the only scene that could've expanded Finn was cut from the last Jedi.
Good god, the rebel inspiring Finn sounds so heckin good, that could have been so awesome...
Imagine if it was Finn and Poe at that casino, with Finn explaining the horrors of war to Poe and the whole trip being a way to teach Poe about how to be a good leader. Then, when they get back to the ships after failing their mission, the explosion takes place and kills everyone in command, including Leia (No force mummy BS)
With all the leaders of the rebellion dead, Poe steps up to become the second-in-command beside Holdo, who eventually teaches him that sacrifices must be made to win when she does the hyperdrive maneuver.
Now, you've got Finn and Poe in charge, with Poe being the leader and Finn as his second-in-command and helping them plan a way to convince the First Order soldiers to join their cause.
To make it even better - Imagine if Rey *was* tempted to the dark side (aka Kylo becomes the main antagonist and Rey becomes his apprentice) and the third movie was about Finn and Poe trying to bring her back to the light!
And better yet, if Rey is the one to kill Kylo, this fits with the whole cycle of Sith apprentices killing their masters! (Kylo killed Snoke, Rey killed Kylo) Which also fits why Kylo would want to 'kill the past', because he want to break the cycle so he doesn't die to it.
And it would give a good explanation why Rey is so powerful - she's trained in both Light and Dark. And her redemption is choosing the Light
Palpatine being in the movie and Kylo Ren welding his hat back together were the dumbest parts. There was no point in their inclusions besides JJ Abrams being a bad writer
Jake Micheletti I think Kylo welding his mask back together was included for the sole purpose of sticking it to Rian Johnson.
Thall For Life this whole movie was designed to stick it to Rian Johnson.
@@Aredel and the paying moviegoers.
I would argue Tarken was the Central Antagonist of A New Hope.
I'd argue that Kylo's redemption was still possible; he'd just need to be re-exposed to the Light. Maybe make it something about how real change takes time and needs guidance or something. (ATLA comparison: While Zuko is still influenced by his hope for paternal love when he returns to the "dark side" in season 2, it doesn't go away before his final return to the "light side". All that changes is his self-perception.)
(Less important: Given how many common Star Wars tropes were averted it subverted in TLJ, I suspect Johnson was trying to disrupt the two-antagonist structure of Star Wars. Criticizing it because it doesn't mesh with extant structures would be silly. Criticizing later films for how badly it handled the plots and characters attached to the new structure...is different.)
In my TROS fanfic I wrote it that Snoke was possessed by Plagueis and didn't anticipate his death so his only way of surviving was through the Dyad he created so his soul is between Rey and Kylo and he pushes them towards different extremes, the dark one will be the one to embody him, he's also ampliphying adversity among them, they then both go in the World Between Worlds and there's a long ass sequence I won't entirely bother explaining since it'll confuse you, but eventually Rey will sacrifice her life while having absorbed Plagueis' life, Ben then truly broke free of Plagueis' influence and had the choice to redeem himself and during the final act he helps Finn inspire a Stormtrooper rebellion against Hux and the remaining Knights of Ren (some of them died earlier in the story), it may sound like rushed fanfic but when you get the whole context you'll see how Ben could earn his redemption
Han and Luke's confrontations set Kylo on the path to redemption. Kylo couldn't fire at Leia. She was orginally supposed to play an important role in ep9, which I guess was related to Ben's redemption.
So from the first two movies, Kylo was on the path to be redeemed.
If this trilogy wanted a redemption arc so badly, then what about the Knights of Ren? What if they were actual characters from the beginning, with their own personalities and motivations. Then in Episode IX they could've followed through with Kylo being the pure evil central villain, and have some/all of the Knights getting redemption arcs.
But no, JJ introduced them in TFA only for them to have a throwaway appearance. As such, Rian had no incentive to use them in TLJ, which meant by the time of TROS it was too late for the Knights of Ren to have any sort of character.
They got pimped out to sell toys
They were Padawans, man, so they were actually "characters from the beginning, with their own personalities and motivations". I completely agree with you. They lost the chance to introduce the redemption arc through one or two of these guys (instead of introducing two new characters and showing Rose Tico again).
Implying that Rian would've tried to use something that JJ left him anyway?
@@EstebanMataVargas They weren't padawans; they are all older than Ben Solo and The Knights of Ren existed with a different leader before the temple was destroyed.
@@kungolaf4499 Ok, thanks for the explanation.
Even as someone who disliked The Last Jedi, the ONE THING I loved was the fact that Kylo was the main antagonist by the end of it and I was really looking forward to seeing how this would play out in IX. But no, Disney/Lucasfilm walked back on their own word of changing things and played it safe.
Retconning major aspects of a story to completely change its trajectory is almost never a good idea. I had mixed feelings about TLJ but my main worry about the final movie was that they'd chicken out and backpedal on those choices. And it seems like that's exactly what happened.
In contrast, TLJ changed the trajectory but did it in a way that didn't conflict with what came before, just recontextualised it. It was a twist, not a retcon. I think they could have executed it better but the concept itself was good. Especially Rey's parentage because the non-answer was actually the most interesting answer. Bonus points for also being the least expected. It doesn't work perfectly to me because the metatext distracts from the text but that's the fault of Force Awakens for setting the whole mystery up without thinking of an answer in the first place.
The comparison between the scene with Jar Jar running during the Battle of Naboo and the scene of Liea telling Han that she loves him feels... off. They have different completely contexts. One is suppose to be silly and the other serious. I'd say that a better comparison is between Liea's "I love you!" to Han before he turns to Carbonite and Kenobi's "I loved you!" to Anakin as he burned on Mustafar which were both very heartfelt.
It's also a comic relief scene from the end act of the first movie of the trilogy, involving a side character against the end of the second movie with 2 of the main protagonists of the trio of protagonists.
Obi wans i love you wasnt even close to anything in the originals lmao
33:00 - This video really proved to me how they had so many great potential plot set ups and resolutions and completed ruined them. Finn helping turn the First Order against the Sith ships would have concluded his character arc and also mirrored the Prequel trilogy with the Clones turning against the Jedi.
The idea of Palpatine coming back as a clone with the desire to possess a new body happened in the old EU/Legends stories, which I know doesn't necessarily make it good but let me explain. What made it work was:
1. It was given a definitive explanation. The original Palpatine is definitely dead, and he had been working on cloning vessels of himself during the Clone Wars. It wasn't just waved off as "Cloning...secrets only the Sith knew" and "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural". The first we hear of the Clone Wars IN CANON is A New Hope from Luke. It's common knowledge, not a secret. Also, Luke had to destroy all of the Emporer's other clones before even attempting to kill him, which could have been a cool conflict in the sequel trilogy if set up properly.
2. The remnants of the Empire actually stuck around and garnered power through the likes of the Thrawn campaign, rather than being an Empire rip-off that we only know is an off-branch of the Empire during RoS, and even still only really gets context from Battlefront II. Again, if built up properly, it could have been interesting.
3. His desire to possess a younger, powerful Jedi (in the EU/Legends case, Anakin Solo, newborn son of Han and Leia) doesn't require a "ritual" or "murder from someone who hates him", but was more a physical attack in a sense. A dying Jedi character forces Palpatine to move into him, and since he is dying, Palpatine is "dragged" into the Force with him and is defeated forever.
I'm obviously glossing over a lot other events within the EU/Legends story (Dark Empire and Dark Empire II), such as Luke's temporary stint as the Emporer's apprentice, and I mainly just wanted to show that Clone Palpatine can work when you get people who actually plan out what they write. It does still kind of rub against that "Luke and Anakin's struggle was ultimately a failure" thing. When reading the comics, it's so soon after RotJ that reads more like Palpatine's last breath than the continued machinations of the all-knowing Sheev.
There's also the fact that the prequels hadn't come out therefore no prophecy established, and it was Luke who handled Palpatine, not a bunch of nobodies
I was totally down for Palpatine coming back in ROS, the problem is, the only lines saying how the fuck he is alive are throwaway lines that you can easily forget. Plus in a perfect world, It would've been hinted since 7 that, Palpatine was secretly controlling everything. He feels to rushed into this movie, and it lowers the value he has when watching.
Actually there is a way to defeat Palpetine without killing him, freeze his ass in carbonite! It is part of the lore and can set up for more sequels. The sequels where it shows that it was Jar Jar Binks controlling everyone!!!!! TRUE DARKSIDE
I defeated Palpatine by skipping TROS at the theatres, but that might be a bit meta, and requires too much audience participation and coordination.
Or you could throw him into a sarlacc.
@@Vasharan nice time skip. I forgot to do that skip
In TLJ, I think that there is potential in having Finn have to infiltrate the First Order fleet sabotage it. As a former stormtrooper he is familiar with customs and would be able to blend in well enough to maneuver around the ship. However, he is not an engineer and so having Rose accompany him for complete the mission is actually not a bad move. The problem is that, while this is EVENTUALLY what the film ends up doing, it requires a ridiculous side quest that seems to serve only the purpose of pushing the morality of warfare and innocent suffering. This takes away from the actual mission that Finn needs to complete for his roll. It also means that he gets minimal time with his nemesis, Phasma, which then further wastes her character's potential as a villainous counterpart to our heroes. And then she gets killed (again) and her best moment in the film is cut in the editing room for reasons that still confuse me.
Do you know what? Phasma could have tracked Finn and Rose to Canto Bite and have her troops chase them off instead of the boring casino troops.
@@kungolaf4499 that was a really cool idea.
I don't think 8's writing was short sighted at all. If "let the past die" and snapping Anakin's lightsaber aren't just taken intertextually, we're being told that Lucas's "rhyming" is over and the series can do whatever it wants and potentially have the final film be like the Dark Knight with ONE irredeemable but compelling and complex villain. The growth Kylo WOULDN'T have would have to happen somewhere else (*pans to Rey Maclunkey and Finn*)
But it was shortsighted. Lucas's rhyming is what made Star Wars genius, it's what makes Star Wars unlike any other franchise. You can't just throw that all alway, that's throwing away Star Wars's core identity.
Last Jedi was Episode *8.* That "8" necessitates a connection to previous films. To severe that connection betrays everything about Star Wars. You don't even deserve to call yourself Episode 8 without the connection which is why so many fans are hostile towards the Last Jedi. Because it is a betrayal of everything that came before.
I'm surprised you didn't include Rey stabbing Kylo and then healing him immediately after, along with Rey dying (for... no reason?) after she kills Palpatine and Kylo bringing her back to life, when you talked about fakeout deaths.
The new trilogy would be better known as "The Fractured But Whole".
Lol
The Fractured *Butthole*.
Ftfy
The movie was good. Liked better than the Phantom Menace. We talk about what we didn't like but the movie made millions.
Too bad, South Park already called it.
@paula I was laughing and getting angry at how stupid The Last Jedi was. That movie is terrible.
Ya know, this is my third time watching this video and I'm just realizing that in RoS, Kylo could stay the Central Antagonist and have the Knights of Ren as the Sub Antagonists
When I seen TROS, I have never felt so mad at movie as I was when I seen the Chewy scene.
I actually had my mouth wide open when Rey had killed him. I felt this rush that a Star Wars film had not given me in a while (besides maybe the first time I seen the Holdo maneuver, but the lore quickly made that fall apart for me.)
When it was shown that he still was alive, I got so mad at the film it was unreal. Finally something that could raise the stakes only to go right out the window.
I hated it too. I was starting to get interested in the film after the transport blew up but then he came back...
I hated how they edited those scenes together. They show Chewy "dying" and then show that he's alive on the star destroyer, and then show Rey and Poe and everyone "mourning" him, which we as viewers can't feel because we already know he's alive. If they switched the reveal that he's alive to after the scene where he's mourned, it would have been more impactful.
JJ Abrams has mastered the art of throwing intriguing plot hints at the wall, he however is really, really bad at resolving those plot hints into a coherent story. And that is essentially how this new triology written with the fun bit of having two directors writing two different stories and getting into a creative fist fight over what story to have in the middle.
The Force Awakened only got away with it because it was a copy of another movie and hence its story was predefined and it essentially boiled down to the new characters experiencing the same story.
I really liked some ideas of the Last Jedi but again it was just more ideas being thrown at walls without actually acting on them. I do think the idea of Kylo and Rey tearing down the old order of black and white Jedi vs. Sith could have created a new kind of dynamic, more complex and mature conflict of right and wrong. However you would need really, really good writing to get away with killing the central antagonist when you haven't even managed to explain the power dynamics of the world, yet, aka Why is the First Order such a threat and none in the galaxy capable to stand up to it? Two movies in and we have no idea how the conflict even works.
However the Rise of Skywalker is essentially JJ Abrams shoving a new trilogy of incoherent ideas into a single movie.
THIS. If Disney was gonna make a new trilogy, they should have tried to do something different and real. Nothing is black and white, and Disney could have pushed that. A rebel force that brings more disorder than good. A totalitarian order that had morals. Characters that were neither good nor bad but just trying. Who knows?
As a filmmaker and writer thank you for making this well thought out and out together video. I’ll definitely be coming back to it to digest the information and further perfect my crafts. A lot of what I felt was explained greatly and even shown more info to notice. It’s a shame there was so many issues with the story of this film and trilogy overall but has allowed a platform for you and other craftsmen and artists to showcase their perspective and skills. Thank you again
I'm grasping at straws here, but I really liked how confident we got to see Finn become in Rise of Skywalker.
And that's the most positive thing I have to say about that movie
the backsliding and kowtowing from tlj to tros was so disheartening. everything you point out that happened in tlj was what i was so excited about. they turned all the tropes on their heads and set it up to have a truly interesting and original final movie. then we got tros…
was just thinking that during that whole section. The Kylo/Rey/Luke plot was the best part of that movie and the way it ended made me come out saying "well I wonder what they are going to do with Kylo" then they just kind of ruined it.
tros was dross
I agree that the TROS that was officially released was lame, but this very video makes it clear why continuing with the end of TLJ makes it impossible to successfully have a Bendemption arc, and show him able to withstand temptation. And if you don't want that in a SW movie, supposedly to wrap up the entire saga [as in you'd rather take the franchise 'off-brand'] then why bother making a sequel trilogy at all, especially one that sets out to ape the OT?
It's fine it you want your SW to be 'less SW', but maybe don't bother making it a continuation.
@@Ruylopez778 that bendemption shit was wackkkk. even tfa didnt set things up for it. the repetition, the cyclical nature of the bendemption shit, was so unnecessary. why would i need a worse rotj? that leaked script sounded way more interesting than what we got. and to set up the universe to explore more of the lore and get away from the lineage stuff, like tlj set up, i was really excited for those possibilities. think kotor or clone wars or any of the eu stuff. no need to keep repeating skywalker redemption stories we already got the best those can get!
Olin Caprison The problem is the conflict between Creative Team and the bosses mainly. Yes, something new would be awesome and I was looking forward to how the trilogy would end. However, after TLJ got backlashed so hard, safe money crew at the top of Disney (or Lucasfilm I don’t care) wanted to turn things around and made this unfortunate film that so many people loved. I am not pointing at people who loved it, just pointing that this safe money crew would have achieved the same fan love by creating something new with better closure for what trilogy needs. Especially after TLJ got this way opened, there was no reason for turning back. There would be the same possibility that people would love it with telling more on why the events occurred at TLJ. This is an utterly meaningless end to a trilogy we invested ourselves, at least it is meaningless judging by the film itself. I am not sure that books may cover it up, there are things that seem irreversible at least for the Saga itself.
I'm glad that TROS (and the entire sequel trilogy) was so awful. That means that we can all discount them entirely as less-than-inspired fan-fiction; otherwise George Lucas' perfect double trilogy might have been spoiled by an unnecessary and bloated addendum. Since it's so unequivocally bad, it can be entirely discounted without regret.
The prequels were pretty bad too. It's just that the sequels were so utterly dire they made the prequels look inspired in retrospect.
@@StephensCrazyHour Prequels had a good story to tell at least. You can debate that the execution was bad but Anakin as a protagonist is more interesting than Luke and the story overall was better.
@@jasonbfleece9420 I can't wait until 15 years when people will make up nonsense about the sequels being better than they really are. Just like prequels now.
*single trilogy
Also, with how the prequels turned out when Lucas was given more control, I would even call the original trilogy his child. The credit deserves to go to George Lucas, Paul Hirsch
, Marcia Lucas, and Richard Chew (aka Writer and Editors)
@@Xpwnxage Won't happen. See you in 15 years.
agree with most of what you said in this video, except the part about Finn in TLJ. sure, the canto bight scene had major pacing issues, but I wouldn't call it filler time that was there to keep Finn occupied. rather, the canto bight sequence was designed entirely to be in service to Finn's character development. in TFA, we have a stormtrooper on the run who makes a friend (Rey) that gives his life a new direction. this direction just happens to take him into conflict with the First Order, though -- his only motivation for going to Starkiller Base was to save Rey ("I'm just here to get Rey.")
in TLJ, he's still following this motivation in the film's first act ("You must have a thousand questions." "Where's Rey?"). it takes an hour of moral teachings from Rose through the canto bight sequence to show him that there is good and evil in the galaxy and there's a greater cause to fight for with the resistance against the first order. the movie makes this explicit, and even offers the character of DJ ('Dont Join') as a counter-argument. in the end, he fights and defeats Phasma, declaring himself 'rebel scum' and giving himself fully to the cause. and hey, he even uses his knowledge of First Order star destroyers to concoct the plan to infiltrate snoke's ship!
it's fair to quibble with the execution of Finn's arc in TLJ, but i don't think it's fair to say he was useless or abandoned in the narrative. there was a clear story to tell about his journey from a lost stormtrooper looking for meaning to a freedom fighter and a true hero of the resistance.
I do agree that abandoning this thread in TROS so that he could be comic relief or yell 'REY' was criminal, though. like, the 'leader of the stormtrooper mutiny' idea was RIGHT THERE!
great video, thanks for sharing!
Nah they were just doing Finn's character all over again.
@Adrijana Radosevic The real plot hole is where were the transport from the last movie. You know you the one that the cockpit forms the shuttle that Finn and Rose use.
I like what you have to say but I disagree about post-killing of Snoke being the only possible redemption moment for Kylo.
At that point he was going on momentum, being a baddie was just his status quo. I think it’s very reasonable that he might reconsider later on. I thought they were going to have the unconditional love of a mother (Leia) be the element that swayed Kylo back to the light (a bit like Frozen. - the power of familial love). They certainly have been setting that up in The Last Jedi.
I’m sure Carrie Fisher’s death messed that up somewhat, but I honestly don’t know why they didn’t still push for it. They kind of had one foot in that idea still with The Rise of Skywalker but didn’t commit to it. Such a sad messy ending for the trilogy. There was so much potential w/ Kylo and Run tension too, and the last movie just destroyed it all.
This movie made me appreciate The Last Jedi more. It disappointed me in some ways, but it was brave and had interesting things to say. Rise of Skywalker is just empty space. I feel like yelling at the movie and saying "Really? That's all you have to say?" You used the word "flaccid" and I think that's the perfect term. It felt like a cowardly movie.
THe problems of this film were seeded in TFA AND TLJ, if Kylo goes unredeemed then the Skywalkers become a net evil on the galaxy and it darkens the entire series. The idea of redemtion is lost, which is KEY to the narrative as a whole (Even in canon stories like Clone Wars and Rebels, redemption is a major theme.). Kylo also would have failed as a main villain because he was no threat at all, having lost to Rey twice before. Due to TLJ and a lesser extent TFA they had an unsolvable villain problem going into this movie. Even Duel of the Fates fails in this regard.
perhaps having his dad profess unconditional love already made that a tad difficult? it's sort of repetitive. and why would leia hold a greater sway over him? just because?
martina seidel In TLJ Kylo couldn’t bring himself to kill Leia so there’s something special between them.
@@memicoot possibly. it's never explored tho, never addressed in any other way, i'm going to go out on a limb that he didn't *want* to kill his dad either, it just so happened that he sacrificed himself in this manner. it makes me wonder what would have happened if leia had dispatched herself then. we'll never know. i think right now there is nothing at all in this relationship except her abandoning him a long time ago because, lik, she couldn't bear to have him turn evil and then he does anyway? something like that.
@@bishopcruz i wouldnt say tlj made the villain problem unsolvable. It would have made his redemption arc flawed no matter how good tros turned out, for sure, but it wouldnt be impossible for the majority of the audience to suspend disbelief in it. It is star wars.
There is another problem with Ray's use of Force Lightning. She's never used it and has no reason to know it. It devalues the ability because as far as the movies go, it is the highest level dark-side force power. Only three characters had ever used it at that point, all of them Sith lords. Those being Palpatine, Snoke and Dooku. And it furthers the argument that she doesn't work for her abilities.
I feel like if Kylo has chosen the light immediately after killing Snoke, it would’ve been a little too easy of a redemption. He’s basically been groomed to be that way for a lot time and learning that it isn’t the right way should be a little more difficult than that. Plus the very end of TLJ with him alone, the dice disappearing, and cut off from Rey... it’s pretty clear he knows he made the wrong choice.
Yeah, this. Killing snoke wasn't about redemption, it was about clawing back some agency in his own life. If he just immediately "turned" at that point it would have felt way too forced and not at all how Sith programming works.
stupidusername Thank You! Everyone always talks about his rejection of redemption and how that means he has chosen the dark path permanently, but they ignore how he ends TLJ. With Luke apologizing and making amends with him and Kylo realizing he has alienated everyone he has ever cared for. The best choice foreword would be to have Hux stage a coup in 9
@@AJFStudios Exactly the sort of plot I was hoping for too. Kylo could have been supreme leader by name, but still obsessed over chasing down Rey, while Hux- believing Kylo was wasting time and resources of the First order- decided to claw for power and take as much as he can of the fleet while Kylo was constantly absent.
@@AJFStudios Well said!!!
The best thing about this trilogy existing. Is that will never see one like this again. I'm sure Disney learned their lesson.
Nah, Disney will just blame the fans before admitting their mistake. History has shown people in power generally will blame another then apologies.
At least Avatar the last Airbender is still an awesome anime.
@@bloodysimile4893 Exactly. They're doing that already with the "toxic fans" mantra. These sequels have sparked an entire movement of bashing older material, not only SW.
Sidenote: Avatar: TLA is not an anime.
NET Alliance we said same thing about prequel trilogy and here we are with sequel trilogy
Ha... I don't share that optimism. It sounds like Disney only learned that "trilogies are too complicated."
🤞
The movie was a wreck. Case closed. I’m just so done with star wars. Sad really. It was a great love of my childhood.
Stay tuned. Filoni and Favreau are becoming the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy
Palpatine might as well BE the dark side of the force at this point. The whole Star Wars saga is basically about his story now.
Except he isn't the personification of the Dark Side of the Force is the Son from the Clone Wars and he is dead.
4 billion dollars spent and it has a story my 7 year old nephew could have written better
Otha Bojangles no he couldn’t have and you’re just triggered
@@toulouse572 yeah I'm upset but I'll get over it. Hows your defending a dumpster fire comment campaign going. Is it fun try to convince people your beloved turd smells good
Toulouse5 It’s a joke
And that four bil was only to buy the IP!
I'm sure the films recouped their production/advertising costs, but I reckon it'll be a long time before Disney breaks even on purchasing the rights.
Jay Ramsey You know toys are one of the biggest markets for Star Wars, so I think they already recouped it
Ohhh, I am so with you on the analysis of Finn!! It broke my freaking heart to see that they had started so promising a story with him and that it just fell apart so badly. His story could have been something unique in the SW universe, something like the stuff Timothy Zahn did with his Hand of Justice troopers in the EU novels. I was so disappointed to see him go downhill like that.
Would love to hear your narrative choices for TROS. A lot of fans blame RJ for killing off Snoke, and while it's true that messed with the setup for the villains, I thought Kylo with a clean slate was a huge opportunity for a plethora of creative choices.
Why does the central antagonist have to be beyond redemption? If Kylo moved into that role, he would have been the first big villain with layers. In fact, if redemption was so key for Disney, they could have interlocked the climax with that narrative - make it such that the only way the Rebels could prevail was by Kylo completely abandoning his dark side.
The central antagonist is pure evil. If you make him "layered", you take away that level of danger. You can't have Kylo be evil and choose to abandon the dark side without confusing the audience, or weakening his position as evil or making the redemption seem weak. And why wrap up a saga by changing things? If you want to change things, do something different. If there's no Palaptine, no Luke, no Anakin and no Vader, what does it have to do with the chosen one saga anyway?
@@Ruylopez778 Was Thanos any less evil because we gave him something more than "I want to kill a bunch of people"? It was Thanos' twisted interpretation of how to save the universe that led to the central conflict of Infinity and Endgame.
In the original and the prequels, we had a lot of good vs. evil where there was no moral ambiguity in the central characters. But TLJ set us up for a far more complex Star Wars that resembles our own world. Not everything that one person does is good nor is it evil. Even in our actions, there are differing levels of moral ambiguity. What I really wanted was to see that played out in Kylo and Rey where both balanced each other but also balanced the darkness and the light within. Rey's darkness was echoed in Kylo's darkness. Rey's light was echoed in Kylo's light. (Very ying/yang idea). Instead of the boring judeo-christian idea of darkness and light, we could have had more complexity by going the route of eastern religious ideas where light and darkness are both necessary and each must exist. Without darkness, there is no light. Without light, there is no darkness.
You know what is the most horrifying thing to me is? It isn't a caricature bad guy doing bad things like Michael Meyers or something. That's cartoonishly evil. I want the ambiguity ranging from a Joker character to a Thanos character where you can sympathize with the guy and be horrified that you are sympathizing with him. Its' good people doing bad things. It's good intentions resulting in horrific devastation. In Frankenstein, we sympathize with the title character even as we are horrified by him. Why can't Star Wars grow up?
(In the prequels we had a lot more moral ambiguity in our good guys. The Jedi aren't presented as some good guys. They don't spread justice throughout the universe. they aren't even that well respected in the universe. We liked that... so why can't we do the same for the sith and the force users that are attuned to the dark side of the force?)
@@jenniferhunter4074 "no moral ambiguity in the central characters"
Han was pretty morally grey at first, but OK. But I get your point, the Force users aren't, initially.
"But TLJ set us up for a far more complex Star Wars that resembles our own world."
Complex isn't better, it's just more complex. And not everyone wants SW to resemble the real world, and that's why people can't agree on TLJ. It's a space western fairytale. So I disagree that SW needs to be more complex or resemble our own world in order to feel fresh or entertaining. I do think that remaking what we already saw 40 years ago isn't the answer. In fact, Lucas made a point of introducing new technology and planets in every movie; desert, ice, forest, city/underwater, water, lava, so each looks different and distinct.
"Instead of the boring judeo-christian idea of darkness and light,"
It wasn't boring in 4-6, but OK. For me it's characterisation and symbolism that makes a story interesting, not complexity.
"Without darkness, there is no light. Without light, there is no darkness"
Yes, that's what we see in the OT. And PT.
"Why can't Star Wars grow up? "
You mean like when Luke (the unambiguous hero) tries to strike down the Emperor, unarmed, entering the climax of the trilogy?
"The Jedi aren't presented as some good guys"
I think we have a different interpretation of the PT. The Jedi were shown to be flawed. That's the POV the audience is supposed to take, I would assume. But they think (prior to Order 66) that they are doing the right thing. When you start off with two extremes of light of dark, you can play where they go. When you start off with two sides of ambiguity it's not surprising or tense when they go in either direction. That's not to say I don't like anti-heroes and villains with deeper motivation. Just like Tarkin wants to use the DS to bring the systems into line, and under control. He doesn't want to kill people just to kill them.
I'm a bit tired of this recent trend to downplay any nuance or symbolism in the OT and PT, while gushing over how sophisticated TLJ is. There's nuance in everything if you look for it, especially Lucas [despite how horrible his dialogue is]
ua-cam.com/video/k7ZW1gtCljs/v-deo.html
@@Ruylopez778 I'll try to respond point to point...Each paragraph = one point that you raised.
Lucas' great achievement was not creating more planets and new environments. It was creating a bit more complexity by world building. We had trade federations, we had a failing republic, we had the "not beacons of light and hope" jedi to list just a few. Lucas could have removed half the planets and the creatures and it still would have been more complex just by virtue of adding that stuff in.
Even space western fairytales can adapt and evolve for a modern audience. What works in the past may not resonate with the audience of the present or the future. For example, Heath Ledger's Joker would have been far too dark for the 60's. But he was just right for the now. So why are purists so intent on keeping Star Wars cryogenically frozen or honoring their favorite stories in the EU?
4-6 was a rather simple morality play. It may appear superficially complex and nuanced but it was on the level of "I cannot tell a lie". It did hint at the darkness with the temptation of Luke but the overall idea was.. dark = evil, light = good. That's too simple and that's the point I was making. (And in the EU, we have writers going for more complexity by introducing the grey.)
1-3 are the reverse with the "fall of Morningstar".
In the OT, the dark is defeated. The light prevails. In the PT, the light is defeated and the dark prevails. Where is the co-existence idea? The one of a balance where both exist and acknowledge that both are necessary? No destruction of all the Sith or all the Jedi but the knowledge that the Sith and the Jedi are two halves of the same coin. Destroy one and you destroy the other.
I like the Luke throwing his saber aside. Very Jesus-y. But look at the very next scene. Vader/Anakin is saved from the dark. The ending drives home the simple morality system that says dark = bad, light = good. Oh... and please.. true loves kiss. Luke's pure love and self-sacrifice was what saved the day. I'm sure that love is very nice and being nice to people is very nice. But isn't that what you tell children?
Just because people are morally in the grey doesn't mean that you can't have tension. It is the conflict in objectives and desires that create the tension. You could have similar tension in a "American Idol" show where the contestants both want the same prize. It's good to have an obvious bad guy because it's fun. But when you get the audience to feel for that bad guy, it becomes more than just a superficial fun. At least for me. (Example. Thanos vs. Ultron. One the audience can understand. We feel for Thanos. We fear Thanos. Meanwhile, robot boy wants to kill a bunch of people and I'm yawning.)
If you feel that the OT and the PT had character arcs and themes, surprise... I think so too. But for me, a voracious reader, I've met many Lukes, many Obi-wans, many Princess Leias and many Palpatines. I've read this story before. But in the ones that I like, the character doesn't have a bad weekend to scare it straight or not.
Complexity for complexities sake isn't what I am going for. But for me, and probably for others, TLJ was intellectually a satisfying movie. Even where Rian failed, I still liked the idea behind it. He created interesting characters from the generic cutouts that Abrams gave him. He had a far more adult themes (Not hookers and booze) such as failure. He opened the universe even more by showing how the wealthy and the powerful are insulated from the effects of governments. He showed injustice and didn't just handwave it away like the predecessor films where we have a moment of silence and then, go to "more important things". So yeah.. I do think TLJ was more complex. If you don't think so... I don't care. Just like you shouldn't care if a thousand people said "the ot and the pt are simple".
@@jenniferhunter4074TL;DR Thanos is not ambiguous
"Lucas' great achievement was not creating more planets and new environments"
I didn't say it was his great achievement. In an interview about SW he specifically pointed out how each movie showed something NEW. And I made a point of explaining that because almost all the ideas, costumes, worlds, sets that we see in the ST are copy of things we saw BEFORE in 1-6. This makes them less interesting.
"So why are purists so intent on keeping Star Wars cryogenically frozen or honoring their favorite stories in the EU?"
No. what many fans want, if you're paying attention is not the same story over again. What they want is the same TONE, with new characters and situations. Not one Jedi + rebels against the Empire.
And Lucas' idea for the ST was to explore the Force and midi-chlorians, while the sequel trilogy says, "nah, the force is a mystery, because that's what we had 40 years ago"
"That's too simple and that's the point I was making. "
Like I said, you're assuming that complexity makes things better.
"The one of a balance where both exist and acknowledge that both are necessary?"
Obviously the Jedi are not going to explicitly state the Sith are necessary for them to exist.
"We feel for Thanos"
Thanos is given enough time to react emotionally, and to explain his motivations. He thinks he is right, as all people who are wrong do. He's not ambiguous.
"So yeah.. I do think TLJ was more complex."
"TLJ was intellectually a satisfying movie"
I like themes about failure and regret and rumination as much as the next man, but SW is about escapism. ESB was dark, but still a fairytale. Luke expressed his frustration and failure, as did Yoda, but the movie still had to go somewhere and do something.
Not everyone wants a SW movie where characters spend a lot of screen time being disappointed. I get that you don't seem to understand that. You think that they're too stupid. For me, there can be complexity in the characterisation and emotional weight, and themes. There can be subtlety. The flaw in TLJ is how obvious and contrived all the plot threads are. We are supposed to see the theme of failure, but we don't see that in Rey. She ends by succeeding. Finn is essentially given nothing to do, and has no impact on the story. RJ said that he wanted each of the characters to face the worse possible situation they could be in; ESB does the same, except it doesn't split everyone up, and there are real stakes. Vader's reveal is the worse thing Luke could hear, and we see his emotional turmoil. In TLJ, Rey reveals the truth to the AUDIENCE, about people we never saw, or care about. She briefly cries, and it changes nothing. She carries on and succeeds at the end. She's smiling shooting TIEs while rebels below her are getting slaughtered.
I don't care if people love TLJ, that's up to them. There are bits of it I really enjoyed. But it drags along a lot. The humor isn't consistent with 1-6. SW doesn't have parody and monty python. It has goofy characters, but they aren't laughing at the story world they are in. It has a discount throne room scene, (with discount "your friends are being killed") discount Hoth scene (where the speeders go out and then go back for no reason, and rebels shoot pointlessly when they would be safer behind the door) discount Dagobah montage, discount Dagobah cave, and a tedious chase. People who gush about TLJ are often the same people that exaggerate how bad the PT, and insist it's all wrong because it contradicts three lines of dialogue from Obi-Wan and Leia. They insist that the love story isn't like Han & Leia (which it isn't supposed to be) and there needs to be more 'war'.
Who cares when Rey sees rebels being killed? She doesn't know anyone but Leia, who she has one line of dialogue with at the end of TFA (?) and Finn, who apparently still doesn't want to be a rebel - not to mention they never do anything interesting with the fact that he was a defected Stormtrooper except he knows the plans. He doesn't cross or double cross anyone - instead that's done by DJ, another throwaway new character, who exists merely for the plot and to briefly share his thoughts on arms dealers directly to the audience [without subtlety]. When he double crosses them, no one is surprised, and he doesn't even have a motive or dilemma like Lando in ESB, who happens to have a connection to Han, and a backstory with some animosity established with several lines of dialogue.
Here's a line from Snoke in TLJ, "Well done, my good and faithful apprentice."
Wow. I'm blown away. What incredible dialogue!
In the thrown room scene, we see them chop through Praetorian guards. We never saw them before, they don't speak, we don't know what they're connection to Kylo is, if anything, and they die rather easily.
The problem I have with your perspective, is that you think having extremes of light and dark somehow limits the future of SW, and if it was more like something different it could be more sophisticated and therefore more satisfying. Complexity and ambiguity doesn't automatically make things more satisfying, and nor do we necessarily need all forms of entertainment to be so. What really matters to an audience is connecting to a character on an emotional level, by relating to their motivations, and understanding what they are trying to achieve and why. The starting point of the characters can be really simple and the motives too.
If you start a trilogy with a conflicted villain, where does it go? We don't really fear him, because we know he's not sure he wants to be evil. And if he turns to good, it's not a particular surprise. And if he stays conflicted then there's no real arc to be invested in. So it's not so great to labour the point of how conflicted he is in the first movie. But this was intentional. They didn't want Kylo to be really bad otherwise they couldn't play up the chemistry between Adam and Daisy. And if her motivation for being a Jedi is a brief father figure being murdered, but also in the space of a few days she supposedly wants to 'be' with Ben, well... it makes no sense. Rey is good for the sake of it, and the story may talk up her wanting to go bad, but Luke does more morally grey things than Rey does, plus he has a motivation to be a Jedi and kill Vader in a way that Rey does not. He also gives up which is relatable which Rey does not. He also needs help from his friends, which is relatable, which Rey barely does.
When a character says, "I want to find my place in all this" - cool but that is an internal goal. That's the 'need' they find, while completing or attempting their 'want' - the external goal. We can't know how she will find her place, and how she gets closer to it, so why do we care? And most people who defend the ST harp on about how Rey had a difficult life and that is somehow a measure of character development. It's the same emotional tricks as Wall-E of creating sympathy. We don't see any of her struggle as a child.
Anyway, it seems we won't agree, even though there are things about TLJ we both like.
7:45 I haven't finished the video yet, but I'd like to make a note. When Kylo chose the dark side, though he had a lot of agency, still had an external force motivating him. As we see at the battle of Crait, Kylo still holds massive anger at Luke for his betrayal. So technically, choosing the light means choosing Luke. And Kylo has not forgived him.
That's a damn good point, it could have worked as Sith-Kylo.
Did anybody else laugh their asses off when rey died
Absolutely nailed it. The final point - the fractured, non-planned nature of the trilogy - is clearly the most egregious offence. It's the root cause that led to so many of the other problems. Great vid.
"Duel of the Fates" would have been the better movie hands down.
btw - the central antagonist in the first movie is Grand Moff Tarkin - Palpatine/The Emperor doesn't appear in "Episode IV".
I never thought a serious and honest review would include the genuine use of the word “yeeted”. Yet damn, here it is
“...and that is why scenes like this:”
“DRAFT KINGS!”
I would have LOVED it if they let Finn die in Episode 8 in a classic Heroic Sacrifice. Once Rose somehow saved him out of nowhere, it told me that no one important was going to die in the rest of the films.
I think Kylo should’ve been redeemed but it was handled very badly. Kylo was never like Vader and that’s why he’s interesting. But somehow Disney wanted Kylo to be Vader again in TROS instead of doing the opposite.
This, so much!