54:28 This whole business of the French-like “ü” becoming an “ee” sound in Modern Greek made me realise how letters influence my interpretation of sounds, I’m sure I’m not the only one. I always took for granted that this sound (like in French sur) was in some inherent acoustic sense, the “twin” to “oooo” (like in Latin cur), but I now realise, I arbritarily link them mostly because I’m used to writing both using the same letter, U. In actual inherent acoustic terms, it’s seems far closer to the sound that “i” represents in French. Anyway, another great in depth look at a hyper specialised subejct; this is filling the void left after I finished the Caragounis epic haha
Haha you’re very kind to watch my long-form videos, my friend. And you’re right; [y] is the rounded version of [i]; or [i] is the i rounded version of [y]. Meanwhile [y] is the fronted version of [u], and [u] is the backed version of [y]. So they’re different coordinates, so to speak.
Very interesting! It really shows just how much the political situation in Athens played in the development and pronunciation of the language. Also interesting to see which of these changes caught on in Koine and later to Modern Greek and which ones didn't.
χάριν σοι οἶδα! Props for showing the exact pages, which enabled me to follow along in the book and get some fascinating references for a theses I'm writing on phonemic vowel length. This type of video, giving a kind of "handrail" for venturing into an academic advanced book for the first time, is a genre we can't get enough of. It's the scholarly equivalent of giving a fisherman a boat instead of fish.
Thank you soooo much for the pronounciation spreadsheet!! I just started with Ancient Greek after 5 months of modern Greek and without I always had to think how to pronounce what in what :D
23:17 I add that the γλυκεία/γλυκέα can also make sense in the context of poetry, or more particularly prosody: of 2 consecutive vowels (or false diphthong), the first, if long, should be pronounced/recited _shortened_ (and a putative written reduced, if only when read aloud, to (what would have been written as) its short _counterpart_ ) This (as well as variation 12, 34:22) reminds one of another historical change leading to Attic (iambic shortening IIRC?) in the -ευς, and -ις, εως declensions - that explains subte inconsistencies such as the accents in πόλεως (*πόληος), the declensions of names in -ευς, -ης, etc.
One can still hear the replacement of ε to ι sound in some villages in mainland Greece and some few islands. But we also can hear ι turning into a 'yi" or "ye" sound and o into an 'ou' sound
Very interesting! Our grandparents did use Η ( Ετα ) as E at some cases they would say ερθες instead of ήρθες ( I don’t know about the Ρ in place of Λ ) their use of different use include Β + Ζ n many times finishing with ΑΝ instead of E ( maybe having to do with a north west dialect?) overall blew my mind I need to learn more
Excelent analysis and a lot of work!...Regarding the flactuations between e=ι or e=ε etc ,in modern " voulgar"Greeks as they are spoken out of the cities in the villages it is widely used the sound (ι) instead of (ε) when (ε) is not pitched .The word παιδί(ον) for ex. is pronaunced (πιδί).. or (Ιλένη) instead of (Ελένη)....
Truly fascinating! This could be from the Vulgar Attic, or it could be a natural evolution of the language from Mediaeval to modern rural dialects. This requires more study.
This is really interesting! It's so bizarre how so many of those innovative forms just vanished with the start of the Koine period. I have to ask though, can η occur before vowels in Ancient Greek? If so, it's odd how it went from [ε:] to [e:] to [i:] without merging with ειV [e:].
@@polyMATHYplus The Η~ΕΙ bit notes (if I understood it correctly) that they were merged (or at least, both "e" sounds) by the 1st century B.C, but that's not what I'm talking about. The chart has both of them as [e:] in the innovative pronunciation of 500 BC (which I couldn't find mention of in the book, but it makes sense), but by 450 BC, only η had raised to [i:], merging with ειC but unmerging with ειV, which is what I find strange.
About the “popular” remark in page 58 you read in minute 8, I interpreted it as related to the people, the commoners, while you seem to have interpreted it as related to popularity in its usual modern meaning.
Totam dissertationem tuam audivi. Mirabile vero! Videtur, quasi necesse esset systhema vocalium graecarum collabi: fatum suum bis vitare non potuit... Iotacisme maledicte! 😅
How did this affect the language, other than its pronounciation? In my mind, the changes in pronounciation must change a language, like modern greek can't have ημεις/υμεις since it's pronounced the same, it needs new words. Wouldnt the same apply to this innovative attic since it also has iotacism?
You’re absolutely right; this would have created significant problems necessitating massive change in grammar and even basic vocabulary, even more then in MG. My guess is that, since this is still one dialect with two subsystems of phonology, the presence of conservative system resisted most of the expected grammatical changes in the dialect as a whole. Maybe some words retained a conservative pronunciation, like εμείς.
@@polyMATHYplus Since you're a bit interested in the Nordic languages as well: in modern Swedish we have word pairs with slightly different meanings, like 'fred'-'frid', 'ryka'-'röka', 'brinna'-bränna' and many more. The thing is that the forms with an e or ö are usually from the dialects in the western Götaland region. The other forms are from eastern Svealand, i.e. the regions around Stockholm. 'Fred' for instance means 'peace' in the literal or symbolical meaning "as opposed to war", while 'frid' means 'peace' in general or as in 'peacefulness'. Then there are words that are almost exclusively used in dialects, though they're cognates with the standard-Swedish words: one example is that 'dryck' means 'drink' in the most general sense in all of Sweden, while 'dreck' is almost exclusively used in the city of Göteborg/Gothenburg, where it means "a can, bottle or glass of strong beer".
after watching this, i really like the subdialects that attic had, and i would love to see people actually use it in their works. but, i think that it makes a lot of sense to use the typical attic reconstruction. it may have been not nearly as popular, but i can see how it's generally more accessible and easier for people to get behind. once i get around to learning ancient greek down the line, i'll toy around with this - assuming i can get my aspirates down!
I’m waiting to see how long and how much it will take for non Greeks to shed their fetish for “the correct” reconstructed pronunciation versus the “incorrect” modern that they chide Greeks for all the time. This is not to say that we have a problem with the scholarship, we just understand simply from extrapolating from modern living dialects that standards are never ubiquitous and the living speech is always varied. When the queen doesn’t speak the queen’s English, such theories reach a dead end on principle alone. I guess we have to give it time.
Hi, you should do more on the new testament (koine greek - textus receptus) and your channel will double overnight! Here in the netherlands students learn latin and classicsl greek in high school. My son is now studying latin and greek in a dutch university. I am trying to read the 'textus receptus' at the moment...God bless you and your channel in Jesus name.....😇
The funniest thing is that you’ll go everywhere in northern Greece from Thessaly upwards and you’ll hear people produce these sounds today. But I expect that you’ll eat your own excrement way before you give the modern Greeks their language back. Modern-like sound innovations happen in attic, then magically disappear for a few centuries until they reappear in a Thessalian village today. Such magic happens nowhere else.
Interchanges between [ɛ/e] [i] happening over and over in languages going back and forth and resurfacing are so common and I find them very fun! Some fun examples: English: Long e: raising to i: Old English [me:] -> Modern English [mi:] but also extant dialectal forms [me~mej], and commonly occurring in pop music songs! Consider the common meme "It's gonna be May" riff on the NSync lyric "It's gonna be me". Lebanese Arabic: Final feminine suffix in Classical Arabic [-a(t)] is raised to -e in non-emphatic contexts throughout the Levant. In Lebanese varieities this is raised further to -i, so consider مدينة (city) : madīna(t) -> [mdi:ne] -> [mdi:ni]. However in common speech today this was lowered again back to -e but commonly resurfaces in song as -i. This is also true of true etymological final -i from Classical Arabic. So consider vulgar form شافني ['ʃæ:f.ni] (he saw me) lowering in speech to ['ʃæ:f.ne] but raising again in pop songs. Consider Nancy Ajram's song أنا يللي ['a.na 'jal.li] (I'm the one who..) which would be pronounced [jal.le] in normal speech. Note, elsewhere in the Levant etymological -i and -a (non-emphatic context) are realized separately as -i and -e.
54:28 This whole business of the French-like “ü” becoming an “ee” sound in Modern Greek made me realise how letters influence my interpretation of sounds, I’m sure I’m not the only one.
I always took for granted that this sound (like in French sur) was in some inherent acoustic sense, the “twin” to “oooo” (like in Latin cur), but I now realise, I arbritarily link them mostly because I’m used to writing both using the same letter, U. In actual inherent acoustic terms, it’s seems far closer to the sound that “i” represents in French.
Anyway, another great in depth look at a hyper specialised subejct; this is filling the void left after I finished the Caragounis epic haha
Haha you’re very kind to watch my long-form videos, my friend. And you’re right; [y] is the rounded version of [i]; or [i] is the i rounded version of [y]. Meanwhile [y] is the fronted version of [u], and [u] is the backed version of [y]. So they’re different coordinates, so to speak.
Extremely in depth and lengthy and profound topic that merits repeated viewings. Hell, I'll have to actually read Theódórsson's work!
Very interesting! It really shows just how much the political situation in Athens played in the development and pronunciation of the language. Also interesting to see which of these changes caught on in Koine and later to Modern Greek and which ones didn't.
χάριν σοι οἶδα! Props for showing the exact pages, which enabled me to follow along in the book and get some fascinating references for a theses I'm writing on phonemic vowel length. This type of video, giving a kind of "handrail" for venturing into an academic advanced book for the first time, is a genre we can't get enough of. It's the scholarly equivalent of giving a fisherman a boat instead of fish.
Thank you soooo much for the pronounciation spreadsheet!! I just started with Ancient Greek after 5 months of modern Greek and without I always had to think how to pronounce what in what :D
23:17 I add that the γλυκεία/γλυκέα can also make sense in the context of poetry, or more particularly prosody: of 2 consecutive vowels (or false diphthong), the first, if long, should be pronounced/recited _shortened_ (and a putative written reduced, if only when read aloud, to (what would have been written as) its short _counterpart_ )
This (as well as variation 12, 34:22) reminds one of another historical change leading to Attic (iambic shortening IIRC?) in the -ευς, and -ις, εως declensions - that explains subte inconsistencies such as the accents in πόλεως (*πόληος), the declensions of names in -ευς, -ης, etc.
One can still hear the replacement of ε to ι sound in some villages in mainland Greece and some few islands. But we also can hear ι turning into a 'yi" or "ye" sound and o into an 'ou' sound
Very cool! Thanks for noting that.
This AND an ita video in the same day! My philhellene side is having a field day!
Hehe enjoy! Thanks
Very interesting! Our grandparents did use Η ( Ετα ) as E at some cases they would say ερθες instead of ήρθες ( I don’t know about the Ρ in place of Λ ) their use of different use include Β + Ζ n many times finishing with ΑΝ instead of E ( maybe having to do with a north west dialect?) overall blew my mind I need to learn more
Barbam tuam amō. Bonum video, ūt semper!
Excellent!
Excelent analysis and a lot of work!...Regarding the flactuations between e=ι or e=ε etc ,in modern " voulgar"Greeks as they are spoken out of the cities in the villages it is widely used the sound (ι) instead of (ε) when (ε) is not pitched .The word παιδί(ον) for ex. is pronaunced (πιδί).. or (Ιλένη) instead of (Ελένη)....
Truly fascinating! This could be from the Vulgar Attic, or it could be a natural evolution of the language from Mediaeval to modern rural dialects. This requires more study.
I think modern Thracian regularly raises unstressed /e/ and /o/ to /i/ and /u/.
This is really interesting! It's so bizarre how so many of those innovative forms just vanished with the start of the Koine period. I have to ask though, can η occur before vowels in Ancient Greek? If so, it's odd how it went from [ε:] to [e:] to [i:] without merging with ειV [e:].
Ah but it did merge! I believe that is covered in this long video.
@@polyMATHYplus The Η~ΕΙ bit notes (if I understood it correctly) that they were merged (or at least, both "e" sounds) by the 1st century B.C, but that's not what I'm talking about. The chart has both of them as [e:] in the innovative pronunciation of 500 BC (which I couldn't find mention of in the book, but it makes sense), but by 450 BC, only η had raised to [i:], merging with ειC but unmerging with ειV, which is what I find strange.
About the “popular” remark in page 58 you read in minute 8, I interpreted it as related to the people, the commoners, while you seem to have interpreted it as related to popularity in its usual modern meaning.
ooh, this has gotta be good 👀
WATCHING NOW. I knew that Iotacism was a thing even then, mainly in Attic Greek!
Totam dissertationem tuam audivi. Mirabile vero! Videtur, quasi necesse esset systhema vocalium graecarum collabi: fatum suum bis vitare non potuit... Iotacisme maledicte! 😅
Grātiās quod spectāstī! Cōnsentiō hahae
Cōnsentiō. Iōtacismus dialectī Atticae Vulgāris tam rīdiculus est.
How did this affect the language, other than its pronounciation? In my mind, the changes in pronounciation must change a language, like modern greek can't have ημεις/υμεις since it's pronounced the same, it needs new words. Wouldnt the same apply to this innovative attic since it also has iotacism?
You’re absolutely right; this would have created significant problems necessitating massive change in grammar and even basic vocabulary, even more then in MG. My guess is that, since this is still one dialect with two subsystems of phonology, the presence of conservative system resisted most of the expected grammatical changes in the dialect as a whole. Maybe some words retained a conservative pronunciation, like εμείς.
@@polyMATHYplus Since you're a bit interested in the Nordic languages as well: in modern Swedish we have word pairs with slightly different meanings, like 'fred'-'frid', 'ryka'-'röka', 'brinna'-bränna' and many more. The thing is that the forms with an e or ö are usually from the dialects in the western Götaland region. The other forms are from eastern Svealand, i.e. the regions around Stockholm. 'Fred' for instance means 'peace' in the literal or symbolical meaning "as opposed to war", while 'frid' means 'peace' in general or as in 'peacefulness'.
Then there are words that are almost exclusively used in dialects, though they're cognates with the standard-Swedish words: one example is that 'dryck' means 'drink' in the most general sense in all of Sweden, while 'dreck' is almost exclusively used in the city of Göteborg/Gothenburg, where it means "a can, bottle or glass of strong beer".
You spelled the word rivalry wrong! :/
Fixed, thanks
after watching this, i really like the subdialects that attic had, and i would love to see people actually use it in their works. but, i think that it makes a lot of sense to use the typical attic reconstruction. it may have been not nearly as popular, but i can see how it's generally more accessible and easier for people to get behind.
once i get around to learning ancient greek down the line, i'll toy around with this - assuming i can get my aspirates down!
It sounds like a fun idea! I’ll probably do something like that on ScorpioMartianus one day.
we have some weird sounding subdialects in many Greek villages today. They get mocked sometimes
I’m waiting to see how long and how much it will take for non Greeks to shed their fetish for “the correct” reconstructed pronunciation versus the “incorrect” modern that they chide Greeks for all the time. This is not to say that we have a problem with the scholarship, we just understand simply from extrapolating from modern living dialects that standards are never ubiquitous and the living speech is always varied. When the queen doesn’t speak the queen’s English, such theories reach a dead end on principle alone. I guess we have to give it time.
Hi, you should do more on the new testament (koine greek - textus receptus) and your channel will double overnight! Here in the netherlands students learn latin and classicsl greek in high school. My son is now studying latin and greek in a dutch university. I am trying to read the 'textus receptus' at the moment...God bless you and your channel in Jesus name.....😇
The funniest thing is that you’ll go everywhere in northern Greece from Thessaly upwards and you’ll hear people produce these sounds today. But I expect that you’ll eat your own excrement way before you give the modern Greeks their language back. Modern-like sound innovations happen in attic, then magically disappear for a few centuries until they reappear in a Thessalian village today. Such magic happens nowhere else.
You are so good looking
Ενδιαφέρον, Λουκά. Θα διαβάσω το βιβλίο του Τέοντορσον.
Τα έχεις κάνεις μπούκλα φίλε... δηλαδή ακριβώς ότι δεν έχεις στο κεφάλι σου
lol moustache
Interchanges between [ɛ/e] [i] happening over and over in languages going back and forth and resurfacing are so common and I find them very fun! Some fun examples:
English:
Long e: raising to i:
Old English [me:] -> Modern English [mi:] but also extant dialectal forms [me~mej], and commonly occurring in pop music songs! Consider the common meme "It's gonna be May" riff on the NSync lyric "It's gonna be me".
Lebanese Arabic:
Final feminine suffix in Classical Arabic [-a(t)] is raised to -e in non-emphatic contexts throughout the Levant.
In Lebanese varieities this is raised further to -i, so consider مدينة (city) : madīna(t) -> [mdi:ne] -> [mdi:ni]. However in common speech today this was lowered again back to -e but commonly resurfaces in song as -i.
This is also true of true etymological final -i from Classical Arabic. So consider vulgar form شافني ['ʃæ:f.ni] (he saw me) lowering in speech to ['ʃæ:f.ne] but raising again in pop songs. Consider Nancy Ajram's song أنا يللي ['a.na 'jal.li] (I'm the one who..) which would be pronounced [jal.le] in normal speech.
Note, elsewhere in the Levant etymological -i and -a (non-emphatic context) are realized separately as -i and -e.