EEVblog
Вставка
- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Dave repairs a dumpster Fluke 196 Scopemeter handheld oscilloscope that has a faulty LCD screen.
Forum:
www.eevblog.com...
How to repair a faulty hot bar LCD screen flat flex cable connection.
Service Manual with full schematics: assets.fluke.co...
EEVblog Main Web Site: www.eevblog.com
The 2nd EEVblog Channel: / eevblog2
Support the EEVblog through Patreon!
/ eevblog
EEVblog Amazon Store (Dave gets a cut):
astore.amazon.c...
T-Shirts: teespring.com/s...
Donations:
www.eevblog.com...
Projects:
www.eevblog.com...
Electronics Info Wiki:
www.eevblog.com...
💗 Likecoin - Coins for Likes: likecoin.pro/@...
Hi Dave,
My name is Dan.
At my old job I build and troubleshot this kind of devices(all of FLUKE scopemeters). They were manufactured in Brasov, Romania, now they are obsolete(this type of scopemeters).
What i wanted to say is: don't worry about the last bar it will fix it's self in time. Just leave it working for a while and it will disappear due to the heat generated by the display and backlight.
That white stuff on the chips is used for heatsink, the radiator is the shield it's self.
If you want help with the oscilloscope function write and I will try to help you.
Hi Dan , I have the same problem with my 196, nothing appear on both channel. Any advice? Thank you.
Best feeling ever when you eventually fix something
+uber1337hakz Until you find the main purpose of the device doesn't work, lol.
+JJayzX Been there, done that and have a tee shirt to prove it.
Two successful repair videos in a row!!! You bloody ripper!!
Fixing those strips is easier than it looks. Just hovering over the ribbon with a soldering iron can fix it easily. You don't even need to touch the strip. This is commonly done on the original Gameboy to fix the screens as they end up separating. You can even do it while its on to see your progress.
Nice one Dave! I'm glad we finally got something fixed haha. Very fun to watch!
You fucking legend, fixing a multi thousand Fluke with a hot gun and a pencil eraser, gold, you and AvE are the best things to happen to youtube
I was repairing this kind of LCD about 10 years ago when I was working at Thomas Electronics in Sydney. Reheat will temporarily fix the issue, but the it will be back quickly. The "glue" is called ACF. Very expensive and have to be kept in fridge. The correct procedure is: 1. using chemical to remove and clean (under microscope) the flex cable; 2. clean glass and PCB; 3. using a Automatic Bonding Machine to bond the flex to glass and then PCB with ACF. Even you've done it correctly for 10 times, it will still be 2 or 3 come back a month later. Nowadays' COG (chip on glass) or more advanced CIG (chip in glass) are not worth to repair anymore.
I think this was the most intense EEVBlog yet! Awesome!
It's annoying you can't like more than once! One of the most rewarding fixes I've seen! VERY useful information to be found in this video in general!
Hi David, I'm one of your multi-million followers eevblog, and I like a lot your way to show & teach electronics.
I came up with a PM97 Scopemeter, with one vertical line missing. But differently than your PM196, do not have zebra connectors hot welded on the pcb, but instead have (3) Zebra rubber connectors: TOP, LEFT & RIGHT, between the LCD GLASS and the pcb.
Useless to say the I wouldn't be able to recover the display using:
- extra pressure by hand on the upper LCD border
- cleaning the pcb LCD contacts using isopropyl alchool
- cleaning the Gold-on-glass contacts
- also cleaned the zebra strip band (both sides)
- furthermore I tried reversing the rubber zebra strip, thinking that one of the contacts was malfunctioning
- also tried to re-solder the Toshiba chips which drive the display columns
so I quickly gone in lack of new ideas I sadly reclosed it....
Thinking:
You're a liar or incredibly lucky ...
I think it might be a decent repair technique for these hotbar attachments, to use a simple clamp and perhaps a long wooden or thin metal bar to apply even pressure to the entire connector (clamping it to the table basically), and then re-heating it. Avoids any sideways movement that could misalign the connections, and should bring the contacts into, well, contact, given some heat, since the pressure is all there waiting.
Purely hypothetical, I've never actually done this kind of repair, but it's how I would have done it if I was to make an attempt!
As surprised as you that it worked, good stuff!
+Mythricia Yes I was concerned about the sideways movement with such a fine pin pitch. Was totally surprised it worked for every connection.
+Gary Lloyd lol that might be a little harsher than the heat gun
+Saxie81 not if you put it on the "nylon" setting?
Did this to my old Gameboy a while back. Damn those hotbar connections
+Boredness yep, just drag a crappy soldering iron along that hotbar till those vertical lines came back
My guess would be stainless screws, probably to prevent corrosion. At least the non-magnetic nature means they probably used a decent stainless :)
+TheChipmunk2008 Or just Aluminium screws.
+TheChipmunk2008 I work with MRI machines which are basically very large, strong magnets. We use Fluke tools right next to it, most of them are not very magnetic, very useful!
+Art Vandelay Yes, they make aluminum screws. They are usually made from an aircraft grade alloy and are very strong. Much stronger than the plastic or aluminum they thread into.
Not at all. They are surprisingly hard. They are not soft at all. As I stated earlier, they are made of an alloy of aluminum and can be heat treated.
+bain5872 that was very interesting, i asumed stainless also. thanks
When you see chips with obviously missing heatsinks, alarm bells should go off; "maybe I'm not her first".
Whahahahahahaha!!! +10 internets to you sir!
my thoughts to
+Toni Lähdekorpi I was wondering if the back shield was interfacing with the chips for heatsinking.
Ding!ding! 😂
Had a same fault with an LCD years ago, also a hot-bar problem. I managed to fix it with just a regular soldering station set to a low (and increasing in case of fail) temperature and trial and error. Managed to fix the whole LCD. It was way smaller though! only 64x128 or something. The good part was that you don't need to take the compression bracket off of it. You can reach the hot-barred flex easily.
Had to do a LCD swap on a BMW E39 instrument cluster that has a hot-bar attached display. Need to get the iron with the T-bar tip so you can heat and press down at the same time. worked like a charm. Well done on the repair!
I did enjoy it very much. I was so impatient and excited when you were going to push the button to see the reflow worked!
Dave's razor, percussion maintenance...
You can sometimes get a quicker easier result by using a soldering iron rather than hot hair - provided temp not set too high. Same technique used to fix Gameboy and Game Gear LCD screen connections.
+GadgetUK164 soldering with hot hair :)
+arcadeuk lmfao - yes, typo of the year lol
+MKUltra Doesn't make a mark on it with Gameboy screens. I think they use a fairly high temp at manufacture. It does depend on temperature of the iron. With some screens hot air can easily hit the screen, for example on the Gameboy. Using hot air is possible but screen will heat up as well if not careful.
+GadgetUK164 I fixed the screen of my Gameboy with this technique, too. I used a 5mm tip and pulled it across the hot bar a couple of times, worked fine!
+MKUltra Yeah a while back I used a 15W Radio Shack soldering iron to reflow the flex cable in a somewhat modern but cheap product. The heat from the iron was definitely enough to completely melt through and destroy the flex cable. I got around this by putting a strip of kapton tape over the flex cable to protect it which worked great. I can't say how permanent the repair will be though.
Definitely need to make another video about the scope repair.
Repair/troubleshoot videos are faves. This one was a toughie, but FUN!
What a beauty. And this Flukes 19x series, what a performance for a handheld scope.
You guys think Dave'll say In Like Fly... yep yes he will. Just kiddin'. It's why we love you Dave.
+DoItYourselfMusician
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_like_Flynn
"In like Flynn" and "Unbeleeeevable" are signature Dave-isms. Keep up the great videos, Dave!
I'm not an electronics engineer or anything, but I still find your videos to be extraordinarily useful and entertaining (hard to find that combination!)
Thanks!
+Grant Guarino Thanks.
I was screaming at you to check if it works before fixing the lcd.
+Vadzim Dambrouski I was blinded by the fault!
You sir, are my hero. Awesome example of troubleshooting technique.
Thats awesome! Genuinely made me smile when I saw you fixed those horizontal lines, shame the scope part of it is cactus though. Perhaps a repair video part 2?
Great stuff as always though.
Love the videos. They keep me highly entertained and help me climb deeper down the rabbit hole of electronics. My fellow "Yankee" friends have been giving me weird looks ever since I've started saying all of Dave's Australian "catch phrases". Gotta make sure everyone knows that Bob is their uncle.
Super cool that you got the LCD fixed!
Good result :)
it was difficult to believe my eyes! went in to fix a common issue for the WIN! bravo!
I once used a clothes hot iron/steamer to re flux a similar flex... it worked flawlessly and the fix was permanent. Just make sure you have an infrared thermometer to monitor/set the temperature on the iron.
Congrats Dave! Here in Canada we say He shoots,He score's! 👍
(2.5 years too late): "I saw it, I saw it, I saw it!" At 3:08-3:15 during what I like to call, "Torsional maintenance." I saw two rows of pixels drop. Center of the screen.
Keep up the good work. Off to watch the rest of the video now...
Finally a repair video that ends in a repair!
Dr. Murphy again.... but your positive attitude helps a great deal!
Used to repair Saab SID units with this problem. A piece of masking tape over the "hot bar" and a clothes iron on max. Plenty of heat and pressure from the iron and the tape to hold the flex in place .
Hi Dave, Love the Repair videos I've watched em all. Im just a hobbyist but your videos really do teach me a lot. i learn so much from them. Thanks for the hard work you put into them and look forward to more repairs in the future
I've fixed quite a few of these hot bar connections with just a soldering iron set to low temperature and quick swipe across the flat flex.
This is a *widely* known issue with these. Multiple eBay sellers offering fixes for this exact symptom.
+Aurelius R www.ebay.ca/itm/Fluke-192-196-199-Scopemeter-LCD-Display-Repair-/230424487426?hash=item35a65ea602:g:DPUAAMXQlgtS8X1o $195 US for the same fix!
I have had a similar failure on a Fluke 12 multimeter. Those elastomeric zebra strips look like a common fault on their displays. But you can order replacements directly from them at low cost.
First time viewing with eevblog t-shirt. I feel somewhat more involved today :D
+bwack Sweet!
I bet you weren't using your EEVBlog ruler at the same time though ;) I need an EEVBlog coffee mug!!!
+GadgetUK164 one of those mugs with heat sensitive paint that say 'Murphys Law!' on one side =)
Glad to see you got it half fixed! Now its just the other half...
Nice work on the display Dave!
I fixed this ribbons a couple of times by running a round tiped soldering iron set to 200° over the connectors applying light pressure.
Use some sort of "drawing" movement as if you would use a pencil to color the area.
Like someone else suggested, I'd check the fuses but I'd also check those optos and power isolation chips. Could be even simpler then the display, but if someone took the display apart they might have also overloaded the inputs somehow...
So I guess we'll see a part 2? At least I hope. It'll be interesting to see if you can get this working again.
You won the battle but the war isn't over! You've gotta give the scope inputs another look😎
Always bet on Dave for the win !!! Cuppa to celebrate, here's to you -
Way to go, Dave (with the display)!
the fluke was more than likely disassembled for repair, then they got a price for the replacement screen and threw it in the bin.
you could hack into the aux display port, and take the signals out to an lcd with flat flex.
From 1996 to 1999 we used 240x64 displays from Varitronix that also had the 64 rows hot bar attached. ALL of them failed. So since 1999 we use Winstar and Bolymin displays. They use longer zebra strips where each of the four sides 16 additional contacts are used to connect the rows. Those displays are a bit wider though but that's ok.
Dave, it's VOGT electronic AG (used to be a German company founded by Hans Vogt in 1934, he has patents for making magnetic cores) nowadays it's SUMIDA AG (from Japan).
I just talked to John Bender (from Shermer High School) and he was a bit disappointed that he stole the wrong Scopemeter from shop class - that is, one with three problems instead of the two that he knew about. He would still like Dave to attempt a repair of the oscilloscope section of the scopemeter. The "Breakfast Club" sends their best to the Jones family and all the viewers.
Thanks Dave, I love watching your videos, they're really entertaining and so informative. Your gusto to try and diagnose/fix that crappy zebra strip had me chuckling out loud and perhaps I'll try to repair one next time I encounter a failed strip instead of just wholesale replacing it.
I'm so jelous about the scopemeter, i can't even afford a proper Multimeter :/
+muh1h1 me too.. :/
I'm a broke sob as well.
+muh1h1 Ye, i could affort it but for ocasional tinkering i can't justify the cost...
Somebody's gonna recommend a vichy VC99 in a minute, then World War 3's gonna break out...
+Gragagrogog Yeah I've wanted a proper oscilloscope and multimeter (still got my old one from high school that's absolute crap), but man I can justify the cost :(
His sigilent SDS 1202X video got my panties wet, but my conscious bitch slapped me.
Hello Mate.... great videos. Here's another method for re-attaching the flex.... quick and dirty. Teflon sheet and Weller variable temperature soldering iron with very large tip. Teflon sheet prevents burning. Just wipe back and forth (slower/higher, faster/lower heat transfer) while viewing the display for corrected graphics. Got the idea from form/fill heat sealing industrial machines. Cheers.....
Nice scope, i have 2, one rare model full isolated, i test psu, hot side, low side, tv repair, computer repair without any security trouble, i plug all channel and test with dmm built-in worry free, more than 20 year with my 196 and 5year with my 199c, nice Fluke instrument!
My 196 need two time the screen repaire like this and also two time asic input chip, 1x probe are dangerous on low scale...
Great repair, have to try this myself now!
Havent used a 196 in ages, looks strikingly like the SIglent SHS810 I recently bought!
Thanks Dave! I was able to repair my 192 with a iron!
"You bloody beauty!"
Gets me every time.
I just realized that I've watched a ton of your videos and I don't even know what your name is!
+Chris S Jones. Dave Jones.
Yes, I haven't started my shows by saying my name since the very early days.
Haha cool thanks for the reply Dave! I love your videos. Keep up the great work!
29:23 Handheld Scopes are usually finicky, most of the time not that accurate as well, that thing is really expansive but if you damage it it will never work as good as factory, good job on the screen alignment though that’s really tough to work on 👍🏻
useful instrument for probing HV power supplies to categorizes waveforms on the primary.
I've always wondered how they manage to manufacture these zebra strips as they're an absolute pain to get working once they've been separated
That is a heck of a nice scope. I started my Electrical Engineer program at my local college, and we don't have anything that nice. I am hopefully going to buy an old Oscilloscope next semester to assist with project troubleshooting.
+Spektor 22 Guns and Gear Reviews Might take a look at the Rigol scope before you buy a used scope. Dave did a teardown on the Rigol, and it's a very nice scope at a very reasonable price. I'm pleased with mine.
I've had this same issue with some old Motorola radio displays. I have had good results by using the edge of a hot clothes iron on that flex cable.
So epic!!!
I've had an issue with this kind of hotbar connection on an electronic dictionary... I tried just using pressure (which worked for a few minutes), but now i'm going to try heat too
This is why I like old skool 80's eqiupment. No LCDs anywhere. Those LED displays back then lasted much longer and looked much better. Nixie tubes were also nice. VFDs look nice but don't last very long.
LCDs suck for reliablility because their contacts can go bad, they can leak, backlight can die, polarisation foil degrades and they break quite easily by bad handling.
"the signal path" did a Tear down and Repair of one of these.
I tried to repair an lcd matrix with lines by covering the strip with kapton tape and swipe the soldering iron across the contact and it worked (for a few hours :) )
I fixed similar hotbar problems using an Iron. It works much better than hot air gun. Dave, try this method next time :)
Who gave out a big "YA!" when he got it fixed at 26:45? Awesome! I knew he would get it.
I love these tear down video!
I agree with the many comments that fixing the scope would be really great
Dave, good job mate! I love watching your videos. This one was one the best.
You did actually manage to affect the screen a little by twisting it- 3:09 one of the lines in the center switches from black to white
You may try with an aluminium bar or something like that, that you can pressure the left part of that connectors, and then put heat there with air? Just like they will do it in the factory, but with hot air, and the bar will protect the other side of that cable. I think that will work best that the rubber trick, you can do ir in the glass too if you controll the pressure, just use some pliers or something to hold the aluminum bar
Hi Dave ..same problem with the scope no display..but did a firmware flash and it good now
+EEVblog if both scopes are not working I'm thinking you could narrow it down to the main ADC area. Perhaps even the circuit that switches between the 2 channels to the one ADC input. Does it use a single (differential pair) input to the ADC? I think with the schematic you could at least isolate the fault pretty quickly. Hmm... I want to see it fixed!
That was pretty good. I always like seeing stuff get fixed in these videos. :)
Never liked that hotbar thing tho. There is always some sort of problem with those....
At 7:40 I was so disappointed that you didn't point out the chip's name is Jill. :( Good on ya, Jill!
I'm a fan club in Thailand I follow all your videos.
And I hope that one day I can send things to you. And you unpack it in the mailbag.
On next video, I'd like to see this basterd repaired and fully functional :)
Awesome repair Dave! Pretty obvious from the start but still very very interesting. Especially the "hot bar rework" part!
Lukas
p.s. looking forward to a pt 2 to fix the o-scope
Well done Dave, great repair video! :D
Killer repair, I didn't think you were going to be able to do it but you freaking nailed it! Well done! I'm wondering if it would be easier to actually use a metal bar to put pressure down on the ribbon, like one of those roller bars from a printer. I always grab and keep them when I can because their hard and perfectly straight. Just clamp that guy down(not super hard obviously) across the ribbon and use the hot air gun, might have worked.
Might have to look for one of these guys with the screen issue, it would be the only way I could afford one of these guys!
oh and btw , you can fit hard foam or styro between the flex and the metal pressure casing , i fixed a gameboy with it someday
Great video. I took a chance on a Fluke 193C , a very nice scopemeter. Yes all the data and service info is available. What is not available is the top most c over to the scopemeter.Fluke freely says the part is obsolete unless you send it to them. The female power Jack which is btw reversed with positive casing and negative pin is also obsolete but there are dozens available from Mouser etc. I love fluke but their obsolete policy is a bit skewed. These are 2-3 thousand dollar meters on eBay or junk. I got mine for 500. I'll eventually find someone to part one out.
those white pads look like 'gap pads' as they're called here in canada. Just used to help transfer the heat to the heatsink, used in place of thermal grease.
It is alive! It is alive!
At 3:10 when you flexed the case, middle lines did actually change.
found your channel through AvE's channel, man you're hella funny LOL.
wow, i thought you were on a fools errand with the lcd, but you fixed it. Now you have a nifty nightlight.
In this situation I would seek to answer these questions....
1) Do Fluke have a repair service?
and if not...
2) Will Fluke supply a new LCD module?
It seems to me that anything made by Fluke has a reasonably high value, even the older stuff, so it may have been worth sending it off to be repaired and re-conditioned by Fluke themselves IF the cost was reasonable. An example being the Softy S4 EPROM programmer. I brought one from eBay a few years ago. It was faulty and therefore quite cheap. I contacted the manufacturer to enquire about spares and they said they did a fixed price repair service - £50 including parts & labour!!. I sent it off straight away. Thing is at the time Softy S4s sold for about £500, in fact there are 2 on eBay right now, both BuyIt Now at around £300. Every time I see Fluke scopemeters on eBay, they are very expensive, even the older models.
Fluke has repair service, but Fluke discontinued the 196 series I scopemeter and so all custom parts, especially the LCD, are not manufactured anymore and since their repair SOP for faulty LCD is to replace it, they can't as they dont have the parts.
The other option is getting a functional USED lcd display on the internet.
as u put some flex on it 3:10 - 3:20 there was 1 line in center of the screen there was switching on/off.
"VOGT" N9, Vogt Electronic seems to now be part of Suminda who produce shiny inductive components (according to their website).
I did not expect a perfect result on the first test based on my experience but I totally identified myself with the 'one missing line' result.
I did a lot of those pesky hot-bar LCD repairs in industrial systems where the entire hardware was so outdated that you couldn't get a replacement screen.
That method of LCD connection should seriously be banned. The repairs were less than perfect, always one or two lines missing and they didn't last much. It was problem solved for a small amount of time, enough to migrate away from the defective hardware, otherwise the equipment keep coming back for the same repair.
Check back the meter after some time and you'll find more and more lines missing. That is the nature of the monster.-
+Zim0256 This existing technology is a fuster cluck. That's why I was asking about what options there are for ruggedized connections to glass edge for LCD.
The standard today is COG/COF technology. The problem is, both technologies require a kapton or flex cable attached to the glass and it may fail exactly the same way with the caveat being that you cannot even try to repair such bonding. It is used on small, cellphone sized black and white LCDs and huge 50+ inch RGB screens. AFAIK the bond is made with pressure on the glass using a special adhesive. It cannot be repaired with just a hot bar, believe me, I tried and it failed again in just a few weeks.
The default action is always, replace the screen if available and between your price bracket or throw away the entire equipment.
I have right now a perfectly good 32" panel in which one column driver broke, consequence of a drop. The panel is intact and functional. The broken driver shorted out and took with him the rest of the column drivers burning one after one. With access to the proper bonding equipment I'd try to replace the drivers and recover the panel but such technology isn't readily available. The result, a mostly functional 32" TV gone to landfill.
Next time you have to reflow hotbar flatflexes, 3 metal (fender)washers and two rubber fenderwashers and a screw and two nuts (scew the nuts against each other to lock them), that will give you a crude roller.
I have seen Nintendo Colors with this exact same problem, and the ribbon cable that the mainboard connected the LCD had to have solder reflowed at the screen connector.
The moment I saw those vertical bars, I thought that was going to be the issue as there are several HP printers that get this same problem (they just have simple 2 line lcds but it's the same stuck-on cable like that, and a very similar issue). The fix for the printer was to simply take a flat screwdriver and press down on the cable, slowly working your way up. Although heating it up would be a great idea, I'll definitely try that next time I get one of those printers!
I had has a plan to buy a Fluke 123 with bad LCD for repair mine with damaged board but after this video i have second thoughts: these stupid things can fail in multiple ways at same time.