"No it wasn't", and John Piper just couldn't hold back the laugh. You can see how it must have been a refining process for that couple. God is so good and graceful in bringing out fruit from what they had.
I love watching videos of these guys !!! Especially when they are talking to each other !!! And the subject is interesting! Women are intelligent, full of sound doctrine! See how they talk! 😂
I don't understand why Kathy felt she had to label her Sisters & brothers in Christ by their former "old nature, (gay Christians)." We would never call out our brothers & Sisters in Christ as Pedophile Christians, Alcoholic Christians, Adulterer Christians. No, that is what we "were," but now we are a Royal Priesthood, a "Holy Nation, a people belonging to God that we might declare the praise of Him who called us out of darkness in to His marvelous light."
What a great discussion, the type of intellectual honesty displayed in this video serves as a great example to those who have a difficult time in parting with their biases on topics such as these.
Gilbert Bilzekian, Catherine Kroger, Gwefair Walter's, Gordon Fee. . .and other Scholars that have taught at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary for the last 52 years in South Hamilton, Massachusetts where Tim Keller, Mark Dever and Kevin Deyoung have graduated from.
Admittedly I've only begun listening to the first woman, and I think TGC made a jump, a leap even, by using the word "complementary" in the scripture that does not use the word. The Hebrew links men and women, but it doesn't use the word complementary. And then, this is just based on the first woman's speech, she then defines this complementarism by using some cherry picked scriptures. In line with loads of other complementarians I've heard they:- 1. insert incorrect language into the Hebrew/Greek bible and then 2. use cherry picked verses. Also as an egalitarian I've never thought egalitarianism was competency based. It is based on not reading the modern ideas of the last two millennia into ancient texts. Given a few comments by the conversationalists, I suspect their stance comes more from that 70s debate they referred too. Obviously I'm not burnt by this debate because I'd never even heard of it until now. And their biases come from the eldership concept.
Help! Is there a theological argument of this calibre that speaks from a more egalitarian point of view? I would like to hear both perspectives but have struggled to find anything where they deal with it with this level of maturity and biblical grounding on the egalitarian end.
I don't have a particular video/resource to recommend, but I'd suggest google/youtube search N.T Wright! He's a very famous British New Testament scholar who's spoken and written on the topic a lot, and I know that Tim Keller has a lot of respect for him too.
So there's no difference in competence? A male firefighter is no better than a female firefighter? A woman is a weaker vessel & she is not physically a mans equal, this is obvious even to a kindergartener.
They were saying that the God-given roles aren’t based on competency, that is, who gets to lead is the stronger one. It’s saying that whatever your competency is as men and women, both express God’s command by submitting to their roles.
The implications of this view are: women CANNOT teach mixed Sunday school? And what about women missionaries? How are they supposed to evangelize men? What was Elizabeth Eliot thinking (a woman!) preaching to those men who killed her husband? This is patriarchy.
We are all called to share the gospel to people, so of course women can share the gospel to men. We are not saying women can’t speak to men about the word of God. But exercising authority in the church of God is something that the Lord has made very clear is for a man.
@@philip2398 it’s not “very clear.” Most of church goers are women and they can’t even participate in ELDERS’ MEETINGS for major decisions and yet just like the Lord Jesus was supported BY WOMEN, NOT MEN (see Luke 8) churches are mostly supported by women. But they got no voice in what they support. Of course you are a man, so it’s “very clear” to you. To me, it’s UNBIBLICAL!
@@philip2398 it’s as clear as wearing head covering today or literally practicing foot-washing. What is CLEAR is that women were not EDUCATED at that time. Times have changed.
Totally agree. They are sent as single ladies, when males usually bring his family and especially wife to serve him in the mission field. Interesting lol Jesus himself was a feminist and FOR Women if his time. Not sure why they sideline what Jesus did or do.
@@philip2398Hmmmmm… this is completely explainable from a patriarchal culture, and the stupid amount of influence one sexist homophobe named Paul has had. For reasons I can’t fathom, he is placed as an expert and authority on this because… the invisible sky boss talks to him? Seriously, this old dude had a seizure with visions, that is temporal lobe epilepsy, not divine revelation. The world has moved on from these sexist tropes, and become more sophisticated, gender and gender roles are largely a matter of equality now and not some contrived hierarchy because “god said so.”. That is the direction people are going, but christians just can’t get there. They actually, in a modern and sophisticated world, still believe in something called inerrant, god inspired scripture. This is weird and insulting to the idea of logic. It is unreal the amount of self deception that must take place for someone in our time to believe these sexist claims. These are absurd claims, as is all “Christian truth.” Only christians could say “well she is better at preaching than that man, but he is a man, and this is church, so regardless of ability, her vagina makes her unable to be the teacher.” And why does god care about the vagina, when her ability is there to preach? Uh…. Because god said so. And what pisses me off the most? The lack of trust christians have in their own conscience and reason, that they will live by a bigoted and sexist creed that is an assault on decency and logic. When I ask a Christian’s why the woman can’t preach, they will say god forbids it. Says who? Paul of course! Paul Newman? No, Paul the apostle! Why should I give a shit what Paul says? Because he had a vision, apparently not explained by a neurological condition? How can you prove this? We can’t. You feel certain that this old dude knows what is best, for everyone, what is truly “godly,” and it isn’t just some mistaken narcissistic blabbering? Christians have been shown to think with the amygdala instead of the cortex, basically creating a non logical mindset that is terrified of everything and desires protective authority. That is your “objective truth” that can be measured.
when they agree on “it always go back to genesis “ is simply both end and origin.... it relies on “because that’s just how it is.”. it’s a weak theology.
i think it is best to follow God, Jesus and the holy spirit. the bible is full of ways to behave. we each have the great commission. spreading the gospel and disciple making. God made it simple. why not just focus on all that we should be doing as christians.
I grew up eating bologna sandwiches with mustard because I guess we weren't wealthy. Later on I discovered what bologna is made out of. We need to stick to the gospel and not left over table scraps.
Suppose that I said "Hey, I'm not sexist. I just believe that there is a set place for men and women that aren't interchangeable and the place of women is jobs like secretary and the place for men is jobs like CEO." You would likely immediately understand that this is incredibly sexist. Frankly, having heart all the arguments, I see no way to not reach this conclusion about complementarianism. After all, my hypothetical statement is nothing more than complimentarianism applied to companies rather than churches. Complementarianism is clearly what the Bible advocates. Therefore, the Bible is sexist. Therefore, I reject both complimentarianism and the Bible and embrace human decency and equal rights for all. What I find striking in this conversation is that no one is presenting arguments showing that complimentarianism isn't sexist. Instead, they are just arguing that it is in line with the Bible. I find that telling. It is amazing how much christianity is about determining who is getting too "upity" and putting them back in their place. If you declare that there is a position that someone cannot have because of their genitals and declare that this is submission, then you aren't asking for submission. You are demanding it. The submission there isn't voluntary. It is enforced. I've seen christian leadership. I've seen Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Bret Kavanaugh, Desantis, Brian Kemp and so many more. Servant leadership? You cannot be serious. Christianity is authoritarian and it can't be or do otherwise. It can't because all it has is a claim of authority. It can't back up its claims with scientific evidence. It can only back up its claims with authority and violence. That is, at least in part, why christians are so focused on dismantling democracy.
@@Vic82toire Why do you think it isn't a convincing argument. All that you've said is just that you don't agree, but not why you don't agree. Do you think comparing complimentarianism to saying women's jobs is secretary and men's jobs is CEO is an unfair comparison? If so, why isn't it a fair comparison? Do you think saying women's jobs are things like secretary and men's jobs are things like CEO is OK so it isn't an issue? I'm not sure what it is about my argument that you find unconvincing. Do you think sexism is OK if it is biblical? It isn't clear what your issue with my argument is.
You are actually the one being sexist, because from your world view is that a secretarial job is less important than being a CEO....AND that secretaries are always women!! This was 9 yrs ago and today there is not a protestant church that DOESN'T have a female pastor (or Co-pastor if they are married to one). There is much more I could say but you have a world view and I have a biblical one so we would be talking apples and oranges. I just wish you well.
were the ten commandments just for the man? or were all (men and women) of the israelites his special treasure? we follow God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. this topic is circular. where do single women fit in? should i find a man as a single woman to lead me????????????? will i be lost and not have a relationiship with god if i am not married or a widow??????????? Will i not be able to choose Jesus as my savior unless i am married to a man who can lead and decide for me? will i be lost as a single female if i don't have a male to lead me????? should i have my male pastor make all my decisions for me? no one wants to talk about that though. i am not married to man, i am married to God, Jesus and the HOly Spirit. that is who i follow because yes, even as a lowly, weak female, as many of you have pointed out, the holy spirit that dwells in me leads me. does the holy spirit only lead man? maybe we can put all the single women and widows on an island and give them bread and water and send one man over there to lead them since they can't do anything on their own. crazy right. your talk is crazy too.
You are very immature. If I am a single man should I buy a prostitute so I have someone to boss around? I want to be single and I am happy. God is my spouse too. But I am happy now. You do not seem happy nor do you seem like you actually want answers or a discussion. You do not even need to be a Christian. Abide by the rules or don't bother with the religion. According to Romans 2:14-15 you do not need to know the law or be a Christian.
Don't speak for egalitarians John, you don't know what you are talking about. Anyway I think you all miss the point. Why do we have complimentarians or egalitarians. All this does is cause division. We should be one in Christ...oops sorry I'm a woman, have I stepped out of line?
You’re operating from a false presupposition that complimentarianism is misogynistic. If that’s your take, it would also be your take that God is a misogynist by default, I think the offense your taking towards the idea is getting in the way of your understanding.
this arguement exist because we are in a fallen state and it is a power struggle. before the fall none of these arguements existed and that is how i will live, equal in all respects to adam. i am equal in all respects. i won't buy into these arguements. i live as though in the garden of eden which was not oppressive controlling or domineering.
Kathy Keller's is phenomenal, godly-wisdom, bold speech. A true blessing to watch this panel share the Word and its application on gender roles
Kathy Keller high-fiving John Piper is so great
"No it wasn't", and John Piper just couldn't hold back the laugh. You can see how it must have been a refining process for that couple. God is so good and graceful in bringing out fruit from what they had.
I love watching videos of these guys !!! Especially when they are talking to each other !!! And the subject is interesting! Women are intelligent, full of sound doctrine! See how they talk! 😂
I don't understand why Kathy felt she had to label her Sisters & brothers in Christ by their former "old nature, (gay Christians)." We would never call out our brothers & Sisters in Christ as Pedophile Christians, Alcoholic Christians,
Adulterer Christians. No, that is what we "were," but now we are a Royal Priesthood, a "Holy Nation, a people belonging to God that we might declare the praise of Him who called us out of darkness in to His marvelous light."
Yes. I thought her comment was a bit hastily worded. Nevertheless, her point, although not well stated, was well meant and, I think, true.
What a great discussion, the type of intellectual honesty displayed in this video serves as a great example to those who have a difficult time in parting with their biases on topics such as these.
Gilbert Bilzekian, Catherine Kroger, Gwefair Walter's, Gordon Fee. . .and other Scholars that have taught at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary for the last 52 years in South Hamilton, Massachusetts where Tim Keller, Mark Dever and Kevin Deyoung have graduated from.
Admittedly I've only begun listening to the first woman, and I think TGC made a jump, a leap even, by using the word "complementary" in the scripture that does not use the word. The Hebrew links men and women, but it doesn't use the word complementary. And then, this is just based on the first woman's speech, she then defines this complementarism by using some cherry picked scriptures. In line with loads of other complementarians I've heard they:-
1. insert incorrect language into the Hebrew/Greek bible and then
2. use cherry picked verses. Also as an egalitarian I've never thought egalitarianism was competency based. It is based on not reading the modern ideas of the last two millennia into ancient texts.
Given a few comments by the conversationalists, I suspect their stance comes more from that 70s debate they referred too. Obviously I'm not burnt by this debate because I'd never even heard of it until now. And their biases come from the eldership concept.
🤦♂️🤦♂️
Help! Is there a theological argument of this calibre that speaks from a more egalitarian point of view? I would like to hear both perspectives but have struggled to find anything where they deal with it with this level of maturity and biblical grounding on the egalitarian end.
I don't have a particular video/resource to recommend, but I'd suggest google/youtube search N.T Wright! He's a very famous British New Testament scholar who's spoken and written on the topic a lot, and I know that Tim Keller has a lot of respect for him too.
A great book to read is 'Two Views on Women in Ministry'; Craig Keener and Linda Belville (Egal) vs Craig Blomberg and Tom Schreiner (Comp.)
Christians For Biblical quality. It refutes the Danvers Statement.
Excellent book: Two Views! Just finished it. Great points on both sides and very peaceful dialogues.
Ben Witherington, Craig Keener, Kevin Giles, Tom (NT Wright), Sandra Richter (on you tube regarding women in ministry).
So there's no difference in competence?
A male firefighter is no better than a female firefighter?
A woman is a weaker vessel & she is not physically a mans equal, this is obvious even to a kindergartener.
They were saying that the God-given roles aren’t based on competency, that is, who gets to lead is the stronger one. It’s saying that whatever your competency is as men and women, both express God’s command by submitting to their roles.
i don't know why this is even a topic?
Do you mean that it's obvious from a biblical standpoint.
The implications of this view are: women CANNOT teach mixed Sunday school? And what about women missionaries? How are they supposed to evangelize men? What was Elizabeth Eliot thinking (a woman!) preaching to those men who killed her husband? This is patriarchy.
We are all called to share the gospel to people, so of course women can share the gospel to men. We are not saying women can’t speak to men about the word of God. But exercising authority in the church of God is something that the Lord has made very clear is for a man.
@@philip2398 it’s not “very clear.” Most of church goers are women and they can’t even participate in ELDERS’ MEETINGS for major decisions and yet just like the Lord Jesus was supported BY WOMEN, NOT MEN (see Luke 8) churches are mostly supported by women. But they got no voice in what they support. Of course you are a man, so it’s “very clear” to you. To me, it’s UNBIBLICAL!
@@philip2398 it’s as clear as wearing head covering today or literally practicing foot-washing. What is CLEAR is that women were not EDUCATED at that time. Times have changed.
Totally agree. They are sent as single ladies, when males usually bring his family and especially wife to serve him in the mission field. Interesting lol Jesus himself was a feminist and FOR Women if his time. Not sure why they sideline what Jesus did or do.
@@philip2398Hmmmmm… this is completely explainable from a patriarchal culture, and the stupid amount of influence one sexist homophobe named Paul has had. For reasons I can’t fathom, he is placed as an expert and authority on this because… the invisible sky boss talks to him? Seriously, this old dude had a seizure with visions, that is temporal lobe epilepsy, not divine revelation.
The world has moved on from these sexist tropes, and become more sophisticated, gender and gender roles are largely a matter of equality now and not some contrived hierarchy because “god said so.”. That is the direction people are going, but christians just can’t get there. They actually, in a modern and sophisticated world, still believe in something called inerrant, god inspired scripture. This is weird and insulting to the idea of logic.
It is unreal the amount of self deception that must take place for someone in our time to believe these sexist claims. These are absurd claims, as is all “Christian truth.” Only christians could say “well she is better at preaching than that man, but he is a man, and this is church, so regardless of ability, her vagina makes her unable to be the teacher.” And why does god care about the vagina, when her ability is there to preach? Uh…. Because god said so. And what pisses me off the most? The lack of trust christians have in their own conscience and reason, that they will live by a bigoted and sexist creed that is an assault on decency and logic. When I ask a Christian’s why the woman can’t preach, they will say god forbids it. Says who? Paul of course! Paul Newman? No, Paul the apostle! Why should I give a shit what Paul says? Because he had a vision, apparently not explained by a neurological condition? How can you prove this? We can’t.
You feel certain that this old dude knows what is best, for everyone, what is truly “godly,” and it isn’t just some mistaken narcissistic blabbering?
Christians have been shown to think with the amygdala instead of the cortex, basically creating a non logical mindset that is terrified of everything and desires protective authority. That is your “objective truth” that can be measured.
how are single women and widows lead?
If you are a single mother, you become the leader of that family.
single women - their fathers. widows - God himself through the body of Christ.
when they agree on “it always go back to genesis “ is simply both end and origin.... it relies on “because that’s just how it is.”. it’s a weak theology.
i think it is best to follow God, Jesus and the holy spirit. the bible is full of ways to behave. we each have the great commission. spreading the gospel and disciple making. God made it simple. why not just focus on all that we should be doing as christians.
Which is found in the Bible...... Gods word.
would these guys like mustard with their Bologna?
I grew up eating bologna sandwiches with mustard because I guess we weren't wealthy. Later on I discovered what bologna is made out of. We need to stick to the gospel and not left over table scraps.
Gay singles?...about minute 49
complimentarian is patriarchal
Its biblical
@@33Cigarettes And both of you are correct.
Suppose that I said "Hey, I'm not sexist. I just believe that there is a set place for men and women that aren't interchangeable and the place of women is jobs like secretary and the place for men is jobs like CEO." You would likely immediately understand that this is incredibly sexist. Frankly, having heart all the arguments, I see no way to not reach this conclusion about complementarianism. After all, my hypothetical statement is nothing more than complimentarianism applied to companies rather than churches. Complementarianism is clearly what the Bible advocates. Therefore, the Bible is sexist. Therefore, I reject both complimentarianism and the Bible and embrace human decency and equal rights for all.
What I find striking in this conversation is that no one is presenting arguments showing that complimentarianism isn't sexist. Instead, they are just arguing that it is in line with the Bible. I find that telling. It is amazing how much christianity is about determining who is getting too "upity" and putting them back in their place.
If you declare that there is a position that someone cannot have because of their genitals and declare that this is submission, then you aren't asking for submission. You are demanding it. The submission there isn't voluntary. It is enforced.
I've seen christian leadership. I've seen Donald Trump, Roy Moore, Bret Kavanaugh, Desantis, Brian Kemp and so many more. Servant leadership? You cannot be serious. Christianity is authoritarian and it can't be or do otherwise. It can't because all it has is a claim of authority. It can't back up its claims with scientific evidence. It can only back up its claims with authority and violence. That is, at least in part, why christians are so focused on dismantling democracy.
Not all Christians believe this complementarianism nonsense. I don’t. Of course it’s sexist and unbiblical.
What?
If that’s the argument against this, it isn’t very convincing. And I’m not even exactly a complementarian.
@@Vic82toire Why do you think it isn't a convincing argument. All that you've said is just that you don't agree, but not why you don't agree. Do you think comparing complimentarianism to saying women's jobs is secretary and men's jobs is CEO is an unfair comparison? If so, why isn't it a fair comparison? Do you think saying women's jobs are things like secretary and men's jobs are things like CEO is OK so it isn't an issue? I'm not sure what it is about my argument that you find unconvincing. Do you think sexism is OK if it is biblical? It isn't clear what your issue with my argument is.
You are actually the one being sexist, because from your world view is that a secretarial job is less important than being a CEO....AND that secretaries are always women!! This was 9 yrs ago and today there is not a protestant church that DOESN'T have a female pastor (or Co-pastor if they are married to one). There is much more I could say but you have a world view and I have a biblical one so we would be talking apples and oranges. I just wish you well.
were the ten commandments just for the man? or were all (men and women) of the israelites his special treasure? we follow God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. this topic is circular. where do single women fit in? should i find a man as a single woman to lead me????????????? will i be lost and not have a relationiship with god if i am not married or a widow??????????? Will i not be able to choose Jesus as my savior unless i am married to a man who can lead and decide for me? will i be lost as a single female if i don't have a male to lead me????? should i have my male pastor make all my decisions for me? no one wants to talk about that though. i am not married to man, i am married to God, Jesus and the HOly Spirit. that is who i follow because yes, even as a lowly, weak female, as many of you have pointed out, the holy spirit that dwells in me leads me. does the holy spirit only lead man? maybe we can put all the single women and widows on an island and give them bread and water and send one man over there to lead them since they can't do anything on their own. crazy right. your talk is crazy too.
Janet Smith.
If you’re really that stupid to say all of that , you definitely need someone leading you. Maybe Leading you to your bible.
You are very immature. If I am a single man should I buy a prostitute so I have someone to boss around? I want to be single and I am happy. God is my spouse too. But I am happy now. You do not seem happy nor do you seem like you actually want answers or a discussion. You do not even need to be a Christian. Abide by the rules or don't bother with the religion. According to Romans 2:14-15 you do not need to know the law or be a Christian.
It's just about women being pastors, not about society.
Don't speak for egalitarians John, you don't know what you are talking about. Anyway I think you all miss the point. Why do we have complimentarians or egalitarians. All this does is cause division. We should be one in Christ...oops sorry I'm a woman, have I stepped out of line?
You’re operating from a false presupposition that complimentarianism is misogynistic. If that’s your take, it would also be your take that God is a misogynist by default, I think the offense your taking towards the idea is getting in the way of your understanding.
If you do not like it then leave it. Please read Luke 12:51 on your way out.
You’re not teaching so that’s fine for you to say that
mess.
?
this arguement exist because we are in a fallen state and it is a power struggle. before the fall none of these arguements existed and that is how i will live, equal in all respects to adam. i am equal in all respects. i won't buy into these arguements. i live as though in the garden of eden which was not oppressive controlling or domineering.
We still live in a fallen world and you still have a sinful nature, unlike the garden of Eden.
Why the labels???? unhelpful....Why did you have to start a 'movement?" Jesus is the movement.
“Trinity” is a label too, it’s actually very helpful to describe the concepts of the bible.
Gross