Kudos to the judge/official at 53:45 for helping out the newer viewers (myself) with watching matches. Having to go through all the motions of resolving, cracking, etc. will really help.
When playing a combo deck it sometimes feel more like you are playing a game of magic all by yourself, the opponent often doesn't matter at all, what matters is how you make your deck reach that perfect set of cards that means you win, no matter what your opponent does.
Yes I just noticed this recently, at the time on Twitch the HD option wasnt avail so the way the flooded grove looks is as though it was a land of some sort that only produced green, the blue portion of the card was hidden. the clique resolving and misstrigger however, is a huge problem.
Your wrong about the first Cryptic Command. He tapped flooded grove which gives two U mana if you active its ability. The forest was not used to pay for Cryptic Commanded it was used to pay for Flooded Grove. So to recap, for the 1st Cryptic Command he used the forest to activate flooded grove, taped grove for 2 blue mana, then taped a dual land for the 3rd blue mana and then typed Valakut for the colorless. It was a legal cast.
I agree. That's probable. Though while watching this video, I definitely got the impression that Lee Shi Tian was aware of what he was doing through the whole match. He plays really smart.
Non-interactive decks means they don't interact with their opponents deck(ie they don't block, they don't kill their stuff) and the deck is similar to playing solitaire. MOST combo decks are considered non-interactive. Sorry if your question has already been answered :3
I didn't. I just answered your question. h445 probably is referring to the fact that Eggstakes 8-15 minutes to "go off" with the combo which means that the opponent has to sit there watching and doing nothing for upward of 20 minutes.
It cycles through a ton of artifacts (chromatic sphere, chromatic star, elsewhere flask, lotus bloom, etc), continually bringing them back with second sunrise/faith's reward until it finds a pyrite spellbomb, which can be used to deal 2 damage with each sacrifice to the defending player and can also be brought back by second sunrise/faith's reward, so it just keeps going 2 damage at a time from the pyrite spellbomb until the opponent is dead.
I'm not sure if you have got your answer yet, I bet you have, but a non-interactive deck (atleast to me) means a deck that the opponent just sits there and watch. In creature matchups you can block, use removal spells, ect. but against combo decks usualy and in this case Second Sunrise once the combo starts the person facing it just kinda sits there and waits to get killed or until they fizzle.
The same can be said for any combo deck that doesn't interact, this is just an extreme case that has no point where you can really shortcut. If you look at the elf combo decks in modern and legacy, it's very similar with the exception that there are shortcuts.
It's Sajgalik's responsibility to remember his own's card trigger that's beneficial to him, not the opponents', nor the judges' responsibility. Also: Vendilion Clique allows you to look at your own hand aswell, which can be revelant, because you can draw a new card instead of an unneccessary one.
It wasn't Breeding Pool, it was Flooded Grove, you can turn the G from forest into UU using Flooded Grove, so it's G into UU from Flooded Grove, U from Steam Vents R from Valakut so he paid for it using UUUR.
def! I loved playing decks like extended turboland and legacy high tide. If you don't like my very long turn, just scoop. :) Also, damn, the head judge is alpha as hell lol.
Card Advantage, its such a big thing as drawing 2 cards instead of 1 each turn is a massive boost, that's why you see players kill the DC as soon as it hits the table if they possibly can. Also the Jund deck doesn't have any above 4 mana cards as far as im aware, with the majority been 1 or 2 the loss of life is insignificant compared to having more cards.
1:56:38 I don’t know if Sajgalik is genuinely dumb or thinks the ref is because while he didn’t name a target he clearly, after getting remanded said “I’m gonna counter that” placing his card by the remand. Like everyone, especially the judge, knew what you meant by that and when you pulled back after seeing open mana on his field it solidified any question for what you were targeting. I think I see why because he wanted him to not draw a card but still overall everyone knows why the Leak went out.
Ochoa should not have drawn the lightning bolt to end game seven because he never shuffled for the marsh flats and thus removing the lightning bolt from the top of the deck. That just seems like a huge play error please correct me if I am wrong.
Which Grand Prix(s) did you top 8? Also, I didn't say that he should have made the mistake, but every player makes mistakes, even Jon Finkel and Kai Budde; making mistakes certainly doesn't make somebody a terrible player, especially after said person won like 11 rounds in a row at the highest level of play...
Non-interactive in this case, means that there's very minimal reactive spells against the opponent. Combo decks are meant to win by pulling off their combo. They don't care what the opponent is doing; they are basically focused on their own agenda. In essence, non-interactive renders your opponent to be able to do little to nothing in response to your actions.
at 1:22:38 he regenerates Thrun, which I believe taps him and makes him unable to block, am I wrong? He would have to go to declare blockers, block, then regenerate in order to make that work out the way it did.
It's basically crazy card advantage and a creature that can beat in for 2 every turn... and it only costs 2 mana. Yea it's sort of sacrificial black-style. But you play dark confidant in a deck that has a very low mana curve so the card advantage is worth the little bit of damage that you receive from it, because you should be dishing out much more damage than you're receiving.
Just clarifying: Tian -DID- mistap his land correct? He did tap a Breeding Pool, Steam Vents, Valakut, and Forest for his Cryptic Command, correct? Obviously there was no way for the judges to confirm that on the spot, but that's still what happened I believe.
Was it just me or did both Ochoa and Edel tap fetch lands (marsh flats and verdant catacombs)for mana in game 5 at around 1:21:00? Not sure why they did it so if anyone knows an answer would be awesome. Thanks a lot.
oh okay that makes sense. while we're on the subject, can that effect stack? say i regenerate multiple times in one turn and have semi Kira effects on my guy?
the problem with putting magic matches on TV is the time. 1 hour for a match, is it worth putting it on the air? maybe for pro tour finals. if the match is done in 15 minutes, that's a lot of interviews and stuff they would need to do to keep people watching. maybe feature matches with hall of famers? seems like a lot to go through =/ ofcourse, I would LOVE to see it!
Modern has very little ways to interact turns 3-4 except for targeted removal and some soft counters. As Cifka said, he mulled until he found a leyline, which is what won the match. There was absolutely nothing Watanabe could do except hope he screwed up. That's the least interactive possible. But despite being boring to watch after a while (especially since I'm mostly a combo player), nothing but respect to the guy for making an incredible meta call!
1BB is the tricky part, not only the tempo, but also the fact that you can screw, and have it as a dead card. Also, a creature can beat down, which is a legitimate way to deal damage against combo decks (and somtimes other decks). It is a resonable argument, but Bob is simply a stronger card, in most decks from modern.
Forgetting to look at your opponent's hand off a Vendilion Clique is inexcusable mistake at any level. And I have played on the Pro Tour and top 8 Grand Prixs so I know what high level tournament play is like.
I would have preferred Booster draft or block constructed for the finals :/ Modern hardly uses any cards from Return to Ravnica, and it's the Return to Ravnica pro tour!
I think the judge wanted to back the game up so that Ed would catch the trigger. However, that's not legal interference (as it is the player's responsibility to identify/announce/resolve all triggers), and would have likely resulted in adverse administrative action. So the judge made the decision to make it all about the tapping of lands, and the Head judge correctly denied him the ability to rewind the game state (and assist the player).
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but Lee didn't mis-tap (I don't think). He used a forest and tapped his Flooded Grove to add UU and then tapped his steam vents for the third U... so he legally cast it?
Non-interactive means that the deck doesn't care about what the other deck does. It doesn't care if you play creatures, attack, counter spells, discard, or removal. It basically says, you do what you want, and as long as I survive to turn 3 or 4, I win.
If any of you think Tian didn't tap his mana correctly for that Cryptic Command then you obviously aren't aware that he has a Flooded Grove in play. Tian played skillfully in this match. Sajgalik was all about the misplays here.
I didn't know that it was legal to do that before the untap phase? oO' So I can now play an instant with my remaining mana before the untap phase? I'm sorry, I just don't have that clear and is bugging me off hahaha.
clique lets you see someone's hand, choose a card in it and put it at the bottom of that player's library. Eduardo played the clique and countered the counter.... and then forgot to look at Lee Shi Tan's hand to make his throw away the scapeshift.
Clique's triggered ability is Sajgalik's responsibility not the judges where as maintaining the proper board state is the judges responsibility, don't get annoyed at the judge for sajgalik making an error.
The only question I have about the ruling is, that the 'fix' of everything going back and happening the same thing is not true, as the clique would resolve and then remove the scapeshift from Tian's hand, rather than coming into play and doing nothing (which it isn't really allowed to do, as he has to choose a player)..
Hey, that guy forgot his Clique activation. That's just as much a part of Magic as anything else. That guy fell to the stress of the situation and messed up. Kudos to the judges for not pointing it out or making a big deal of it. That's how it goes.
Asking in all seriousness, what do you mean by "non-interactive"? Not trying to start an argument, I'm legitimately asking. I've only been playing for like 8 month, so i'm still learning. What qualifies as a non-interactive deck?
Did you not see the 2 blue for the first cryptic command? and then 3 blue for the second? That's a problem all on its own. Sajgalik should have declared whos hand he's looking at, but it's a shame he didn't. Sajgalik did not misstap, not from what I've seen. Lee did.
This is what the Oracle says about Regenerate: "The next time that creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat". Meaning that it only gets tapped after it gets destroyed for the first time.
It is on Sajgalik, unfortunately, but it's a game violation misplay due to a mistrigger that was mandatory. the highest he would have gotten is a warning, in the least a caution (a judge steps in to prevent play and remind sagjalik he needs to resolve the clique fully first before the game goes on. It's not a "may" trigger. It's mandatory. Unfortunately it's really, really sad to see no judge step in, very embarrassing. I've met with Eric (frenhc judge) in quebec city, he agreed.
I got kind of lost at 2:19:00, but I think I figured out what happened. Tian kept tapping and then change his mind and untap his mana every time he played a spell (or considered playing) for the last few turns, so that made it extra confusing to watch. At 2:19:00ish Sajgalik goes to combat, and taps his Clique for attack. Tian (who had already tapped, then changed his mind and untapped his mana at the start of combat) plays Cryptic to return Clique to hand, and draw himself a card, but he TAPS 2 BLUE, A GREEN, and A RED to pay for it (when the card costs 3 blue and 1 anything). Tian draws the Scapeshift from top of deck from the Cryptic. After Sajgalik's combat he replays his Clique, Tian attempts to counter with a second Cryptic, playing 3 blues and a red/green (2:20:50 count the blues! Tian had 5 blue mana sources on board, but played 2 cryptic commands during Sajgalik's turn. He needed 6 to do both), Sajgalick Snapcasters + Mana Leaks to counter the second Cryptic. Then everyone missed the Clique trigger. Then we go to Tian's turn. He plays his Scapeshift, and thats when the judges step in to reflect on what had happened the turn before. What are the pro tour rules as written for when a player does not have the mana to play a spell, but everyone lets it resolve and then we move onto the next turn? One judge was mentioning how if they reset the turn then Tian would have just been able to pay the mana correctly. But that was actually a mistake. Tian had the blue mana to bounce the Clique once, but not enough mana to counter it when its replayed. Then even if Sajgalik missed the trigger, leaving the Scapeshift in hand, Sajgalik would STILL have had Snapcaster + a Counter to stop the Scapeshift. But then Tian would still have his second Cryptic to counter the Snapcaster and have the proper mana to play both Scapeshift and Cryptic on his turn. God what a mess. Tian's hand beat Sajgalik's one way or the other (5 blue sources aside). So it really does come down to the missed trigger being the make or break moment.
If the rules of Pro Tour somehow dictated that the board state should be reset to Sajgalik declaring his attack, and if that scapeshift had to go back on top of the deck, and if the rules also required Tian to reshuffle (because he had pulled out all those lands the next turn, and because he had drawn a card off a spell he should not have played). Then that reset to combat and shuffle Tians deck would have changed the outcome dramatically. But I dont know if that is something the rules ever call for.
Lol no, the first cryptic is paid with 3 Blue and a Red. The second cryptic is paid with 3 blue and a red or green. Like, do people even read the card Flooded Grove? You can filter a green mana to make two blue mana :)
Couldn't Watanabe have won a turn sooner? Cast and activate Liliana (that he just drew), animate Village and attack with everything? Or could Chew have any answer to that?
When Clique resolved, he was obliged to look at this opponents hand. However, he did not do that. Even though he doesn't have to take a card from his hand, he wouldn't have left Scapeshift just standing there when it outright kills him.
...I feel sooooo bad for Sajgalik right now...he played a heck of a game (and I guess a match), putting himself in pretty good position to win the match, and then he missed the Clique trigger...argh!
with the grove covered up and the amount of misplays that took place its easy to get lost in the complications of the game and forgetting what they have on the field.
If the game state was reversed back to then, you could viably say he forgot to use the clique again. Also since no target was chosen (if that's part of the issue) he could have targeted himself, revealing no cards and thus choosing none. Not sure if it would be ruled that way but that's what I think is possible anyway.
Right, what I don't get is 1. how he forgot to target after he fought to keep it in play, and 2. how the judges didn't say anything since that was an illegal play - he could have targeted himself, but he still had to target a player for its ability when it hit the field.
It means that once the opponents combo goes off, they combo player will win and the other player has no way to stop it. Therefor no interaction by the non combo player.
Oh sure. I'm not saying that Tian not acknowledging the missed Clique trigger was him playing smart. That is of course taking advantage of your opponents missed triggers. I'm just saying in general, I think Tian made smart plays for the situations he was in. Of course, he would have lost if Sajgalik hadn't missed that Clique trigger. However to play devil's advocate, one could argue that was solely on Sajgalik. Which I believe is true. Can't blame Tian on not reminding Sajgalik on that one.
I'd say it was assumed that since he didn't ask to see his opponents hand he simply cliqued himself and didn't take anything. Though I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to the rules.
I wonder if Sajgalik was kicking himself afterwards for missing that golden opportunity with his Clique at the end. With 9 potential power already on the board, with 7 of it flying, he could have very easily won if he hadn't missed it. Such is life, but sucks to lose like that. >.
decks where you dont do anything interracting with your opponent untill you go infinite and kill him directly? not a long time player myself but thats the best answer i could come up with
yeah they look so similar. Shame about the mana leak and the clique mistakes though, however I can't see someone with all those mistakes getting through, even if I am British. Overall I don't think he played his control deck that well, often countering things that were not threats, and having literally nothing left for when the combo was going off..
I'd even argue that Eggs is less interactive than those decks. With dredge, you'll have interactions in game 2 and 3 at the very least, or if you're able to kill one of your creatures before their bridges go nuts, you shouldn't be in too bad shape. Oviously with SI, if you have no interactions then it's GG. But there are so many things that can be disrupted, from counters, to graveyard hate, even wasteland in some cases. Stifle also wrecks the deck, along with force.
Wizards, thank you so much for going to the trouble of putting this coverage onto youtube so we can all watch it. Its much appreciated. =]
Kudos to the judge/official at 53:45 for helping out the newer viewers (myself) with watching matches. Having to go through all the motions of resolving, cracking, etc. will really help.
I love watching these videos, thanks Wizards!
That artifact deck is fucking beautiful
Holy crap, Cifka's deck is awesome!
When playing a combo deck it sometimes feel more like you are playing a game of magic all by yourself, the opponent often doesn't matter at all, what matters is how you make your deck reach that perfect set of cards that means you win, no matter what your opponent does.
Yes I just noticed this recently, at the time on Twitch the HD option wasnt avail so the way the flooded grove looks is as though it was a land of some sort that only produced green, the blue portion of the card was hidden.
the clique resolving and misstrigger however, is a huge problem.
Correct. Standard is currently Innistrad, Dark Ascension, Avacyn Restored, M13, and Return to Ravnica.
I want my cards to snap like yuuyas
especially that combo stuff! I commentted before seeing what was happening. That was nuts!
Your wrong about the first Cryptic Command. He tapped flooded grove which gives two U mana if you active its ability. The forest was not used to pay for Cryptic Commanded it was used to pay for Flooded Grove. So to recap, for the 1st Cryptic Command he used the forest to activate flooded grove, taped grove for 2 blue mana, then taped a dual land for the 3rd blue mana and then typed Valakut for the colorless. It was a legal cast.
I agree. That's probable. Though while watching this video, I definitely got the impression that Lee Shi Tian was aware of what he was doing through the whole match. He plays really smart.
Non-interactive decks means they don't interact with their opponents deck(ie they don't block, they don't kill their stuff) and the deck is similar to playing solitaire. MOST combo decks are considered non-interactive. Sorry if your question has already been answered :3
"Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth" was in play, which makes all lands (including fetch ones) swamps, therefore they can be tapped for B mana.
I didn't. I just answered your question. h445 probably is referring to the fact that Eggstakes 8-15 minutes to "go off" with the combo which means that the opponent has to sit there watching and doing nothing for upward of 20 minutes.
It cycles through a ton of artifacts (chromatic sphere, chromatic star, elsewhere flask, lotus bloom, etc), continually bringing them back with second sunrise/faith's reward until it finds a pyrite spellbomb, which can be used to deal 2 damage with each sacrifice to the defending player and can also be brought back by second sunrise/faith's reward, so it just keeps going 2 damage at a time from the pyrite spellbomb until the opponent is dead.
Yes, but the missed triggers rule states that it's up to Lee Shi Tian whether or not he gets it once Eduardo misses it.
It just feel so awkward that Sajgalik forgot about the Clique trigger. He would have won, probably.
5z4d,d
I'm not sure if you have got your answer yet, I bet you have, but a non-interactive deck (atleast to me) means a deck that the opponent just sits there and watch. In creature matchups you can block, use removal spells, ect. but against combo decks usualy and in this case Second Sunrise once the combo starts the person facing it just kinda sits there and waits to get killed or until they fizzle.
2:19:52 Lee Shi Tian payed a cryptic without tapping 3 blue sorces am i correct? he payed with basic forest and valakut ? am i missing somthing?
flooded grove filters a green mana into green green, blue blue, or green blue. so he tapped valakut, forest to activate flooded grove for UU, island
This is Modern format. Everything from 8th edition up until now is legal, parting the banned list.
The same can be said for any combo deck that doesn't interact, this is just an extreme case that has no point where you can really shortcut. If you look at the elf combo decks in modern and legacy, it's very similar with the exception that there are shortcuts.
It's Sajgalik's responsibility to remember his own's card trigger that's beneficial to him, not the opponents', nor the judges' responsibility. Also: Vendilion Clique allows you to look at your own hand aswell, which can be revelant, because you can draw a new card instead of an unneccessary one.
It wasn't Breeding Pool, it was Flooded Grove, you can turn the G from forest into UU using Flooded Grove, so it's G into UU from Flooded Grove, U from Steam Vents R from Valakut so he paid for it using UUUR.
def! I loved playing decks like extended turboland and legacy high tide. If you don't like my very long turn, just scoop. :)
Also, damn, the head judge is alpha as hell lol.
Card Advantage, its such a big thing as drawing 2 cards instead of 1 each turn is a massive boost, that's why you see players kill the DC as soon as it hits the table if they possibly can. Also the Jund deck doesn't have any above 4 mana cards as far as im aware, with the majority been 1 or 2 the loss of life is insignificant compared to having more cards.
1:56:38 I don’t know if Sajgalik is genuinely dumb or thinks the ref is because while he didn’t name a target he clearly, after getting remanded said “I’m gonna counter that” placing his card by the remand. Like everyone, especially the judge, knew what you meant by that and when you pulled back after seeing open mana on his field it solidified any question for what you were targeting.
I think I see why because he wanted him to not draw a card but still overall everyone knows why the Leak went out.
As said by Oldinion, it was during Ochoa's End Step.
Ochoa should not have drawn the lightning bolt to end game seven because he never shuffled for the marsh flats and thus removing the lightning bolt from the top of the deck. That just seems like a huge play error please correct me if I am wrong.
Which Grand Prix(s) did you top 8? Also, I didn't say that he should have made the mistake, but every player makes mistakes, even Jon Finkel and Kai Budde; making mistakes certainly doesn't make somebody a terrible player, especially after said person won like 11 rounds in a row at the highest level of play...
Non-interactive in this case, means that there's very minimal reactive spells against the opponent. Combo decks are meant to win by pulling off their combo. They don't care what the opponent is doing; they are basically focused on their own agenda. In essence, non-interactive renders your opponent to be able to do little to nothing in response to your actions.
at 1:22:38 he regenerates Thrun, which I believe taps him and makes him unable to block, am I wrong? He would have to go to declare blockers, block, then regenerate in order to make that work out the way it did.
It's basically crazy card advantage and a creature that can beat in for 2 every turn... and it only costs 2 mana. Yea it's sort of sacrificial black-style. But you play dark confidant in a deck that has a very low mana curve so the card advantage is worth the little bit of damage that you receive from it, because you should be dishing out much more damage than you're receiving.
Just clarifying: Tian -DID- mistap his land correct? He did tap a Breeding Pool, Steam Vents, Valakut, and Forest for his Cryptic Command, correct? Obviously there was no way for the judges to confirm that on the spot, but that's still what happened I believe.
Was it just me or did both Ochoa and Edel tap fetch lands (marsh flats and verdant catacombs)for mana in game 5 at around 1:21:00? Not sure why they did it so if anyone knows an answer would be awesome. Thanks a lot.
oh okay that makes sense. while we're on the subject, can that effect stack? say i regenerate multiple times in one turn and have semi Kira effects on my guy?
the problem with putting magic matches on TV is the time. 1 hour for a match, is it worth putting it on the air? maybe for pro tour finals. if the match is done in 15 minutes, that's a lot of interviews and stuff they would need to do to keep people watching. maybe feature matches with hall of famers? seems like a lot to go through =/
ofcourse, I would LOVE to see it!
Modern has very little ways to interact turns 3-4 except for targeted removal and some soft counters. As Cifka said, he mulled until he found a leyline, which is what won the match. There was absolutely nothing Watanabe could do except hope he screwed up. That's the least interactive possible. But despite being boring to watch after a while (especially since I'm mostly a combo player), nothing but respect to the guy for making an incredible meta call!
1BB is the tricky part, not only the tempo, but also the fact that you can screw, and have it as a dead card. Also, a creature can beat down, which is a legitimate way to deal damage against combo decks (and somtimes other decks). It is a resonable argument, but Bob is simply a stronger card, in most decks from modern.
Forgetting to look at your opponent's hand off a Vendilion Clique is inexcusable mistake at any level. And I have played on the Pro Tour and top 8 Grand Prixs so I know what high level tournament play is like.
Activating regenerate never taps the creature. It is only tapped when it would die after having regenerate activated.
I would have preferred Booster draft or block constructed for the finals :/ Modern hardly uses any cards from Return to Ravnica, and it's the Return to Ravnica pro tour!
which can be completely shut down by balance control or midrange/interactive
I think the judge wanted to back the game up so that Ed would catch the trigger. However, that's not legal interference (as it is the player's responsibility to identify/announce/resolve all triggers), and would have likely resulted in adverse administrative action. So the judge made the decision to make it all about the tapping of lands, and the Head judge correctly denied him the ability to rewind the game state (and assist the player).
Please tell me if I'm wrong, but Lee didn't mis-tap (I don't think). He used a forest and tapped his Flooded Grove to add UU and then tapped his steam vents for the third U... so he legally cast it?
Non-interactive means that the deck doesn't care about what the other deck does. It doesn't care if you play creatures, attack, counter spells, discard, or removal. It basically says, you do what you want, and as long as I survive to turn 3 or 4, I win.
Kitchen finks is one of the best creatures in Magic history, hands down.
It’s a good one!
If any of you think Tian didn't tap his mana correctly for that Cryptic Command then you obviously aren't aware that he has a Flooded Grove in play. Tian played skillfully in this match. Sajgalik was all about the misplays here.
I didn't know that it was legal to do that before the untap phase? oO' So I can now play an instant with my remaining mana before the untap phase? I'm sorry, I just don't have that clear and is bugging me off hahaha.
1:04:00 that was the most awesome turn i ever witnessed in my magic history xD holy fucking shit! :D
I think back in the day they used to show Magic on ESPN at some points during the year.
clique lets you see someone's hand, choose a card in it and put it at the bottom of that player's library. Eduardo played the clique and countered the counter.... and then forgot to look at Lee Shi Tan's hand to make his throw away the scapeshift.
Clique's triggered ability is Sajgalik's responsibility not the judges where as maintaining the proper board state is the judges responsibility, don't get annoyed at the judge for sajgalik making an error.
No wonder that shaman with cascade is banned now in modern :/
Can somebody please explain to me why did Edel at 13:00 played a lightning bolt killing geralf's messenger before his untap phase?
The only question I have about the ruling is, that the 'fix' of everything going back and happening the same thing is not true, as the clique would resolve and then remove the scapeshift from Tian's hand, rather than coming into play and doing nothing (which it isn't really allowed to do, as he has to choose a player)..
So so so difficult to watch, I feel so bad for Eduardo man... damn 😞
There is an entire PT dedicated to the RTR block. Calm down, you'll see your fair share.
agreed, like how do you miss a trigger like that? you don't snap counter just to keeep a clique without looking wtf...
Zendikar was like not usable anymore in toury play?
So when Cifka brings back all his permanents, they don't have summoning sickness?
Hey, that guy forgot his Clique activation. That's just as much a part of Magic as anything else. That guy fell to the stress of the situation and messed up. Kudos to the judges for not pointing it out or making a big deal of it. That's how it goes.
Anybody know what kinda sleeves yuuya is using? They look like KMC supers but im not sure
i take it you mean the deck with Divining Top and Counterbalance? (see i'm learning, lol)
Asking in all seriousness, what do you mean by "non-interactive"? Not trying to start an argument, I'm legitimately asking. I've only been playing for like 8 month, so i'm still learning. What qualifies as a non-interactive deck?
Did you not see the 2 blue for the first cryptic command? and then 3 blue for the second? That's a problem all on its own.
Sajgalik should have declared whos hand he's looking at, but it's a shame he didn't.
Sajgalik did not misstap, not from what I've seen. Lee did.
This is what the Oracle says about Regenerate: "The next time that creature would be destroyed this turn, it isn't. Instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from combat". Meaning that it only gets tapped after it gets destroyed for the first time.
ok. so, again just getting information, how does that hurt the game? you said it was "bad for Magic".
It is on Sajgalik, unfortunately, but it's a game violation misplay due to a mistrigger that was mandatory. the highest he would have gotten is a warning, in the least a caution (a judge steps in to prevent play and remind sagjalik he needs to resolve the clique fully first before the game goes on. It's not a "may" trigger. It's mandatory.
Unfortunately it's really, really sad to see no judge step in, very embarrassing. I've met with Eric (frenhc judge) in quebec city, he agreed.
I got kind of lost at 2:19:00, but I think I figured out what happened. Tian kept tapping and then change his mind and untap his mana every time he played a spell (or considered playing) for the last few turns, so that made it extra confusing to watch. At 2:19:00ish Sajgalik goes to combat, and taps his Clique for attack. Tian (who had already tapped, then changed his mind and untapped his mana at the start of combat) plays Cryptic to return Clique to hand, and draw himself a card, but he TAPS 2 BLUE, A GREEN, and A RED to pay for it (when the card costs 3 blue and 1 anything). Tian draws the Scapeshift from top of deck from the Cryptic. After Sajgalik's combat he replays his Clique, Tian attempts to counter with a second Cryptic, playing 3 blues and a red/green (2:20:50 count the blues! Tian had 5 blue mana sources on board, but played 2 cryptic commands during Sajgalik's turn. He needed 6 to do both), Sajgalick Snapcasters + Mana Leaks to counter the second Cryptic. Then everyone missed the Clique trigger. Then we go to Tian's turn. He plays his Scapeshift, and thats when the judges step in to reflect on what had happened the turn before. What are the pro tour rules as written for when a player does not have the mana to play a spell, but everyone lets it resolve and then we move onto the next turn? One judge was mentioning how if they reset the turn then Tian would have just been able to pay the mana correctly. But that was actually a mistake. Tian had the blue mana to bounce the Clique once, but not enough mana to counter it when its replayed. Then even if Sajgalik missed the trigger, leaving the Scapeshift in hand, Sajgalik would STILL have had Snapcaster + a Counter to stop the Scapeshift. But then Tian would still have his second Cryptic to counter the Snapcaster and have the proper mana to play both Scapeshift and Cryptic on his turn. God what a mess. Tian's hand beat Sajgalik's one way or the other (5 blue sources aside). So it really does come down to the missed trigger being the make or break moment.
If the rules of Pro Tour somehow dictated that the board state should be reset to Sajgalik declaring his attack, and if that scapeshift had to go back on top of the deck, and if the rules also required Tian to reshuffle (because he had pulled out all those lands the next turn, and because he had drawn a card off a spell he should not have played). Then that reset to combat and shuffle Tians deck would have changed the outcome dramatically. But I dont know if that is something the rules ever call for.
Lol no, the first cryptic is paid with 3 Blue and a Red. The second cryptic is paid with 3 blue and a red or green. Like, do people even read the card Flooded Grove? You can filter a green mana to make two blue mana :)
Couldn't Watanabe have won a turn sooner? Cast and activate Liliana (that he just drew), animate Village and attack with everything? Or could Chew have any answer to that?
When Clique resolved, he was obliged to look at this opponents hand. However, he did not do that. Even though he doesn't have to take a card from his hand, he wouldn't have left Scapeshift just standing there when it outright kills him.
How does "Second Sunrise" deck win?
...I feel sooooo bad for Sajgalik right now...he played a heck of a game (and I guess a match), putting himself in pretty good position to win the match, and then he missed the Clique trigger...argh!
with the grove covered up and the amount of misplays that took place its easy to get lost in the complications of the game and forgetting what they have on the field.
Oh ok,but you cant use it in standard right?
Actually the Clique doesn't say "may",it says "Look",so it was actually illegal to play it and not do anything ;)
That second sunrise deck is a fine example why I dont play any constructed beyond standard and block.
Block is dead. Now what?
@@nickfanzo lol, replying to an 8 year old comment...
Now magic is killed by wokeness and greed. So there you have it... See you in 8 years!
@@Noksivs if you left it up, I can comment on it. How many years have passed is irrelevant.
And what is wokeness?
Oh ok thanks, I didn't realize there was an Urborg in play.
he has urborg, tomb of yawgmoth on battlefield, so he can tap it for black mana
If the game state was reversed back to then, you could viably say he forgot to use the clique again. Also since no target was chosen (if that's part of the issue) he could have targeted himself, revealing no cards and thus choosing none. Not sure if it would be ruled that way but that's what I think is possible anyway.
Right, what I don't get is 1. how he forgot to target after he fought to keep it in play, and 2. how the judges didn't say anything since that was an illegal play - he could have targeted himself, but he still had to target a player for its ability when it hit the field.
how do u miss a trigger at this level of play.....
Where are demz Flashfreezers?
It means that once the opponents combo goes off, they combo player will win and the other player has no way to stop it. Therefor no interaction by the non combo player.
same way that they missed the trigger for angel of dispair at a previous event like this with kibler.
He lightning bolted on Ochoa's end step, not on his own turn before untap.
Right at end the cryptic first cast wasn't with right mana
yeah, it was. filter land.
Otavio Ariano Gaio ,...
The Pro Tour format changes each season.
Oh sure. I'm not saying that Tian not acknowledging the missed Clique trigger was him playing smart. That is of course taking advantage of your opponents missed triggers. I'm just saying in general, I think Tian made smart plays for the situations he was in. Of course, he would have lost if Sajgalik hadn't missed that Clique trigger. However to play devil's advocate, one could argue that was solely on Sajgalik. Which I believe is true. Can't blame Tian on not reminding Sajgalik on that one.
can someone explain to me how 18 damage was dealt at 50:00?
holy shiiiiii.... that clique!?!?! aRRGgghhHHH...... its gotta be painful for him to look back on this
I'd say it was assumed that since he didn't ask to see his opponents hand he simply cliqued himself and didn't take anything. Though I'm not exactly an expert when it comes to the rules.
I wonder if Sajgalik was kicking himself afterwards for missing that golden opportunity with his Clique at the end. With 9 potential power already on the board, with 7 of it flying, he could have very easily won if he hadn't missed it.
Such is life, but sucks to lose like that. >.
2:19:55 any1 noticed what mana Shi Tian tapped for Cryptic command??
decks where you dont do anything interracting with your opponent untill you go infinite and kill him directly?
not a long time player myself but thats the best answer i could come up with
"So, now take 18?"
yeah they look so similar. Shame about the mana leak and the clique mistakes though, however I can't see someone with all those mistakes getting through, even if I am British. Overall I don't think he played his control deck that well, often countering things that were not threats, and having literally nothing left for when the combo was going off..
I'd even argue that Eggs is less interactive than those decks. With dredge, you'll have interactions in game 2 and 3 at the very least, or if you're able to kill one of your creatures before their bridges go nuts, you shouldn't be in too bad shape. Oviously with SI, if you have no interactions then it's GG. But there are so many things that can be disrupted, from counters, to graveyard hate, even wasteland in some cases. Stifle also wrecks the deck, along with force.
assuming it's the same turn