TONEX ONE & The Big Problem With Profilers & Dual Amps. Phase Issues. Can It Be Fixed?
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- Опубліковано 7 тра 2024
- *Re-upload (audio sync issue)
I thought we'd made it. Dual amps in a tiny, affordable package. We're just a firmware update away.
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The reason why even old analog equipment has phase inversion, but not partial phase adjustment, is because many types of analog circuits, especially amplifier circuits, are naturally inverting. So parallel analog circuits can be completely out of phase but not partially out of phase.
For anyone dealing with this, note that you don't have to guess at the latency difference. In the video he was playing with the latency typing in various values to demonstrate the effect, but if you were recording you can measure the delay by simply looking at the two waveform traces and then adding the exact measured delay to line them up.
In the video it was mentioned several times but hopefully people understand there are lots of parallel setups where this is not a problem. This is an issue with summing, but I would encourage people to try some non-summed arrangements such as dual amp left-right, wet-dry, or wet-dry-wet. These can provide a more spatially complex experience rather than just trying to thicken up a mono by summing a bunch of distortions.
I guess Tonex is being called out here because it is so inexpensive that it should become very common for people to have many of them. Until now most people would have completely different modelers (which also would be a phase problem) that they are trying to combine.
It would be very cool if ToneX could provide a guaranteed fixed latency mode! Thanks for representing!
Thanks for this comment, great points. The variable phase relationship thing with digital devices had never even really properly occurred to me, and I guess it hasn’t occurred to some other people too.
In the analog world, each time you pass through a capacitor, you flip the phase. Its an easy fix. Add a capacitor to the circuit. Digital world presents a whole new set of problems.
Thanks for making great videos with loads of info!
Glad to hear that IK is looking into the latency issue with two Tonex pedals!
I mean just to be clear - the issue is the same issue that you'd have with ANY digital profilers in parallel. TBH if anything, the low latency of the Tonex makes it LESS of an issue than competing products (it's just that with the affordability, we're more likely to buy two of the Tonex One to try it...)
Jon, it might be cool if IK Media, in their model download library, could list the latency for each model (in each hardware platform). This could be useful because I suspect that many models may actually have same latency. So, you could have an easier time finding models that pair nicely.
That’s a great idea, but I have a feeling the latency figures are probably numbers like 1.28493ms. Really we need an option to absolutely lock it at a particular value
Thanks for the comment. Yeah I’ve been surprised to see much discussion of this - I did wonder if maybe no one cared but persevered anyway!
The comb filter effect you get when summing signals with differing latencies is the same effect you get from a flanger. Flangers add a copy of the input signal that is slightly delayed, just like using 2 reel to reel tape decks and slightly slowing one of the reels with your finger.
Reminds me of that old quote ‘if my aunt had wheels she would be a bike’!
Thanks for the video. Any running a dual amp setup needs to know this.
Thanks for watching! It’s a more complex topic than I realised
Very cool video. Thanks for the interesting content. This out of phase thing is always a bit of a mystery to me. ... I've always wanted to configure my pedalboard for a wet-dry-wet setup. With the Tone one it seems to be financially feasible 😉. Have you had any experience with it? What about digital amps with out of phase when effects (such as 2 delays) are split?
Best
Thanks for being here! It's complex isn't it. I've not done wet dry wet, no. It's going to depend on exactly what you're putting through which signal path. For example, if you just have delays in the wet paths, a ms here or there won't make a difference. But stereo modulation will be affected, to varying degrees. And as I mention, if you have three separate speakers, one for each line, I would imagine that would be just loads of fun. But if you're recording and summing to mono, or even stereo, or it's hitting a PA system (ie there's some summing going on - you have three signals going into two), you are likely to experience SOME comb filtering. Maybe a negligible amount, but possibly enough that things sound slightly different. However I'd say if it's for three speakers in a room.... it's probably just going to be great fun!
Really glad to see someone take the time to address the stereo elephant in the room that I like to refer to as PHASE HEMORRHAGE! It has been driving me nuts for a long time now. I'm using pro tools. Could someone suggest a simple summing plugin with delay compensation that I can run in pro tools, like one featured in this video? If I can get this straightened out, I'll consider it a MAJOR life goal achieved. Thanks!
Thanks! I can’t advise a plug-in that does exactly what you’re describing, but have you looked at Auto Align 2 from SoundRadix?
Yet another brilliant and enlightening video. I'm waiting for my two Tonex Ones to arrive. Going to test out a stereo setup with the Mimiq pedal running to both Tonex Ones with the same profile, but with a slightly different EQ or drive setting. Panned hard L/R throughout the PA and Inears. I hope that using the Tonex pedals will decrease the phasey vibe of the Mimiq so that I get a massive guitar sound. Just like on the record. We only have one guitar player and the music is alternative rock
That’s sounds like a great idea (same profile, different EQ). You never know though, if you’re keeping the same profiles running and not changing them, so long as when you sum them it still sounds good, there’s not really a problem whatever the profiles!
Based on my (limited) understanding of how AI works, I expect that the same model should have same latency, even with different settings on that model. Like fiddling with the mid tone shouldn't affect latency. Hopefully.
Now that I'm thinking about it, it is probably pretty easy to measure your favorite models' latency and you might find that several of them are actually matched. I suspect there are many that are naturally or even by chance matched, and you could get lucky with very different models.
I will keep you posted on the results. I saw an interesting video on Dry-Wet-Dry where the guitar is panned hard left and right (using a Mimiq pedal) and the delays and verbs were in the center. This is for live application. People on the right and left of the venue would hear the same and the people in the middle hear an wider guitar sound. Added bonus is that the center has more space for the vocals, bass, kick and snare.
@@JonWrightMusicTV Okay, first try with the new Tonex Ones. Mimiq into both toneX Ones in the effects loop of the Kemper. Just picked the JCM 800 that came standard for both of them. FX stereo loop in the X position. Stack block Kemper off. Kemper drive in the stomp section for pushing the One's. Delay and Reverb in mono post loop. Dry-Wet-Dry. Sounds pretty fat and responsive. And added bonus is that you can still use the remote for all presets.
Happy to see a youtube channel talking about this issue. Like you're saying, it's a very specific issue and 99% of the users won't need to worry about it since they only use a mono output. That being said, being aware that parallel processing with digital effects always introducing latency and can therefore introduce phase shift is crucial.
I've also been testing the Boss GT-100 with dual amps and parallel processing : i was disappointed to discover that even if it's modelling technology, the amp models have different latencies (i'm talking about *samples* latency, less than 1ms), which makes a dual amp setup not the same as an analog one.. (btw the only workaround is to use the same amp with different settings). And the same goes with different Compressor models, or pedal models...
Then I've been experimenting with different captures in NAM and ToneX, and it's the same, even when the captures come from the same pack. The only workaround is in a DAW, having a capture as a reference, and ALWAYS CHECK THE PHASE relationship between the reference and the other captures you're using (Voxengo SPAN or Waves' InPhase are useful for this), and then sample-delaying (with Voxengo SampleDelay) the second capture with the reference.
Like you said, it's a game reserved for the sound nerds... (or the gear dorks like Albini would have said). BUT a stereo setup with one guitar, two amps (one clean, one crunch/distorted) sounds amazing and that's probably why a lot of pros use that configuration...
Thank you for this very interesting and useful comment. So even in the Boss where it’s one single unit, you run into phase issues WITHIN the unit, based on the profiles phase relationships?
It’s clear that this is not a ToneX-specific issue at all - and it’s becoming apparent that it’s something that can happen even within modellers. I guess it’s two powered speakers at all times then!
Great video again thanks. Just to be sure : I'll be using 2 Tonex to have 2 amps in stereo, into a stereo amp (jazzchorus 40) fully panned one to the Right and the other to the Left so... No issue at all right ? ☺️
I don't think I can make you that promise without a full understanding of exactly what and how you're using. But I think you're probably ok and it's worth a try!
@@JonWrightMusicTV so kind of you to answer everyone :) . I have tested and doesn't notice any issue. Blending a VOXAC15 and a Bassman with 2 tonex one is magic... (I'm using a rickenbacker and now also considering trying the "rick o sound" to completely split the pickup signals) 🙂
Phase is always defined at a given frequency, polarity is absolute. You really should not use these interchangeably.
I literally say 'these terms are conflated' in the video! You surely witnessed me correcting myself. Anyway, do get in touch with the rest of the world, including equipment manufacturers, and correct them as well...
I get that these two terms get confused all the time, even among professionals, but the more people use the terms correctly the better the chance of newcomers learning the difference and grasping the problem you outlined in the video.
Hey Jon. Great video. I am thinking of using 2 Tonex One for stereo. Can you explain how would I connect them so one goes right and another one left, what else do I need gear wise? I dont understand from the video what splits 2 Tonexs so it goes to 2 chanells? New at this😄 in my mind cable goes from guitar to one tonex then to another and then i have one cable. Hiw to split the signal for stereo PAs or 2 tracks in DAW? Thank you
Hi! Yes, you need something to split the signal before the TONEX pedals. I used a Strymon Flint reverb pedal to do this on one video, and the G2 switcher on another. You could use any A-B-Y box.
Do bear in mind though that you don’t necessarily need two of them for stereo - you can run a single one into stereo effects. I discuss this in the video I posted today!
I liked this, thank you
If you use the tonex one as an interface, can you record the DI signal in parallel with the caputred sound? ... so that you can later try other amp simulations on the recorded guitar track as well in the DAW?
I don't know for sure, but I think the answer is no. But if you have a Tonex pedal, you probably also have the software - so you could record DI only and monitor through the software?
Been a subscriber for a while & yes, you are lazy 😂 but your videos are 👌brilliant. I’ve just got a 2nd ToneX pedal & running them through a modeller I ran into the same phase quirk. Luckily I can adjust the phase independently on my modeller for each of the send/returns that the ToneX’s sit in but like you say, it is hit or miss between captures & slight adjustments are needed.
Great video man, very insightful. Thanks again & hope you’re well!
Ah thanks! I’m trying! Glad it was useful (or entertaining!)
Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Something to keep in mind : "out of phase" isn't always bad (ex : the Fredman technique, which uses phase cancellation)...
As long as the tone works in the mix it's ok.
You just need to be aware of phase cancellation and use it to your advantage.
Well said!
Just so that I'm clear, this comb-filtering effect happens whether you're running the same capture on both of the tonex ones or two different amp captures, correct? Thanks
I think the same profiles running on two ToneX One pedals will be identical, ie no phase shift. It’s when different captures have different phase that you may run into that.
If you want two effects/amps in paralell but summoned to mono. Could you not just capture them in paralell into a single capture and run it on one unit to avoid this problem? I realise this would not be as flexible and fall apart as soon as you would want to turn one of them of or add other effects in series in one of the paths. For some applications like the paralell overdrive example it should work right?
I don't know whether the capture technology works properly with parallel signal paths. In reality though, I think the issue is more that we'd like to try running different amps, to pick and choose and find combinations that work for us - and most of us don't have those amps sitting around to make dual profiles
I have an IR plugin called cabinetron that has a automatic phase align feature. OMG it is a godsend when blending IRs! I feel like the best way to fix this issue in a single tonex is to have an exact fixed latency, and then process the profiles to phase align. so each one with have a small offset to have consistent phase between input and output.
This is a great tip for recording!
@@JonWrightMusicTV I use the UAD2 Plugin IBP Phase Alignment Tool. It basically works in real time, so you can adjust the phase alignment before you start playing. It takes away most of the audible artifacts (comb filtering) introduced by phase alignment issues. Of course, as with all UAD2 plugins, you need an Apollo to run it.
I have two strymon Iridiums, and I tried the stereo like you are doing, and I had them running into a line isolator in a UA 476, and I couldn't get them in phase. One Iridium was sounding good. The other was totally clean, and I'm not sure why.
I’m sure I heard of someone else finding that the different Iridium amps were not in phase with each other, meaning that two using them for biamping was limited. Maybe I dreamed it.
I did a lot of captures with Tone X and sometimes two captures with same setup give a different delay/latency in the capture. It's not only the pedal that gives a latency but also the capture itself. Now, I use Deco on one side to match the phase.
Exactly - great point!
As far as I know to resolve the phase issue in analog world you need to use Isolator with reverse phase switcher. I do not own Tonex but I've seen few videos about that. Unfortunately there is not much videos about dual amp stereo hooking up those pedals and explaining in details what exactly type of isolator box need to be used. Appreciate for all of your commitment, time and good content videos 😊👌👍
Ah thank you, glad you’re enjoying!
In analog world, a phase switcher works because analog circuits can only be fully out of phase (many amp circuits are inherently inverting). So analog equipment could get by with a single phase inversion switch.
Digital unfortunately can have any phase offset, so needs finer control.
@@jabelar2008 Thanks for adding some more details... What about hybrid while connecting 2 Tonex One pedals to Helix LT/Floor? Will isolator box with phase switcher work or not? 😜
@@basandi4017 With a phase switcher you will probably find one setting will sound better than the other, so from that perspective it may be helpful. You should definitely try it. But also, the phase switch will never be the right amount of phase shift to fully/exactly compensate for digital latency differences.
@@jabelar2008 Correct. The answer is "Do Not Sum to Mono." You could also try introducing a delay pedal and screw around with short delay (2-3 ms) on left or right channel to match the latency difference, but that delay will change as the DSP usage varies on each Tonex pedal.
Great video exploration of the topic... BUT... I think that there is generally a fundamental misunderstanding of what is actually going on when using dual modeler setups. The captures are snapshots of real amps and speakers, yes? All real speakers are not linear phase devices, it is a complex curve that depends primarily upon impedance and frequency response (among a whole bunch of other parameters!) of the particular speaker. The phase response of a real speaker will lead below resonance and lag above resonance. It can typically swing a total of ~100 degrees (so let's say it swings +50 degrees below resonance and -50 above) for an average guitar speaker. Different speakers = different phase responses). This means that what we hear when combining amp/speaker models would be those differences. So what is being heard in the digital world is simply a reflection of what happens in the real world with real amps and real speakers (and real microphones which also have a phase response curve). Without complex plugins (or at least a couple of analog all-pass filters) you can only correct for POLARITY between two amps or amp models. (Fender vs Vox vs Marshall..where polarity of the amp is dependent upon the number of gain stages in the signal path). And the reality is that some amps will interplay well with one another and others just won't. Players have been combining multiple real amps both live and in the studio for decades. They find amps that work well together and then choose mics and mic locations to make those combinations work well together. (Joe Bonamassa, for instance, uses how many different amps on stage? But notice that ALL of his amps are loaded with the same speakers...HMM?) Adding small time delay in the digital realm as you did in the video would be the equivalent of moving a microphone farther away from a speaker in the real world. In the end, those phase differences between the L and R amp are what makes that super wide "stereo soundfield". If you "fix" that, it would still sound like stereo, but it loses that "wide" feeling. In the end, I don't think what you are measuring is "variable latency" but it is the latency of the hardware (which should be a fixed value) combined with the phase response of the amp/speaker models. Hope that is helpful and I am happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
This is one of my favourite comments - thanks for sharing. Totally. I’ve just released another video covering some of this - and then saw this comment!
it's an annoying pandora's box indeed =)
from what i've understood the latency for toneX is consistent, but each profile depending on how they were shot will skew slightly because of that, (mic/IR phase alignment/distance/polarity etc...) this is quite apparent when say blending IRs from different sources
it will be however 'baked into' the profile as it's part of the snapshot, and that can't be changed, but only compensated for after the fact , and that usually has to be computed at the same point
i guess some kind of 'auto-trim' per device might alleviate these issues, but at the same time potentially change how some profiles might have sounded/felt if that makes sense
If accurate, this is a massive point - thanks for raising it. So the idea being that there is phase variation between profiles as a matter of course - it's part of the actual profile - NOT a processing delay. Thinking about it, I guess they would need to have a way of measuring the precise time delay per profile - either at the time of capture or when processing the profile - and to compensate for it. So this would include the latency of users' interfaces/computers when capturing profiles. as well as mic distance etc. But how could that work when you have multiple mics used for a profile?
Why would the 'auto-trim' change how things sound though? I would have thought that it would sound just the same, but with marginally increased latency. It would only sound different in how 'in-phase' it is with another profile (which is the point). Really interesting comment, thank you.
@@JonWrightMusicTV it's what i can imagine based on what i've seen with IRs
e.g 2 IRs , one is 1.3ms off the phase alignment of the other
so One profile shot with the first IR , will inherently be 1.3ms off the other profile shot with the other IR
that's why it's so tricky i guess
the idea of an auto-trim, at least in my head is like aligning the phase of profiles after the fact, ie. accounting for the usual latency of the unit it'll adjust the profile so that it'll be time aligned with other profiles, i'm not sure however how this would/could be implemented in profiles
it can potentially skew with what might be the feel of another amp , (slower attack etc..) but i know it's something that's done with IRs
further to that there's the whole MPT vs RAW for IRs , that's a whole other topic, how this all relates to profiles and how they're shot as well, quite a lengthy discussion
Thanks !!! So, we can buy 1 toneX and 1 Tones One and we will have this delay plugging in real time ;-) Did you tried it ?
Yes. I had planned to demonstrate it in this video and got as far as loading up identical profiles on the ToneX. Then I realised that there were other variables (eg input gain) which made a direct comparison a bit vague. However the minor additional latency of the original ToneX means that yes there would in theory be a slight phase shift
Great !!! Thanks for the feedback !!! And nice videos !!!
As pleasing as it sounds when you play in front of a stereo rig, I couldnt care less when listening to a live performance. As for recording, a well played double track sounds bigger and fuller than any stereo guitar. If I need stereo (delay etc), I´ll do it in the mix...
Another trick - when you absolutely need a stereo signal from 2 modeling pedals like tonex - is to use a phase allignment plugin like Auto-Align from Sound Radix.
Love Auto Align. It’s got me out of a jam a few times! I just think of double tracking and stereo guitar as completely different tools. I would literally never go for stereo when trying to get a double tracked sound.
Polarity, Phase issues, and comb filtering...all part of running dual captures or dual IRs. That very unpleasant sound comes from lots of comb filtering.
Indeed. The funny thing is that I quite like some of these ‘wrong’ sounds - it’s just a bit unpredictable. Particularly when matching levels.
Phase cancellation doesn't happen only in mono...
But it's easier to hear it happening in mono.
No… there’s no real phase cancellation in the stereo setup we’re discussing. Everything’s being reproduced correctly by the two speakers. Put them in mono ie send them through the speakers together, and you hear it - because it’s happening! It’s not really happening with two amps going to two speakers.
@@JonWrightMusicTV If it's happening in mono, then it's also happening in stereo. It's just that it's less noticeable.
Most mixes are stereo and pro mixers often temporarily listen in mono to hear phase cancellation better.
@@djabthrash I'm sorry but you're not correct. In 'stereo' each speaker correctly plays the individual amp, one amp per speaker. It when it's summed to mono and the speaker tries to play the out of phase signal at the same time as the in phase signal, that's when the phase cancellation occurs. I hear what you're saying about checking mixes in mono but it just demonstrates the point - there's no cancellation in stereo, it only happens when you.... drum roll please.... sum it to mono.
@@JonWrightMusicTV Sorry but no, and let me explain :)
If you're in a room with 2 speakers in a stereo setup, your ears will hear simultaneously :
* direct signal from the left speaker
* direct signal from the right speaker
* reflections from the direct signal from the left speaker
* reflections from the direct signal from the right speaker
At your listening position these signals (sound waves) will merge, and phase cancellation can (and most certainly will) occur.
Unless if you're list
To prove my point, just listen to a well recorded (as in : in phase) stereo drum overhead track on your speakers (in stereo), and then flip the polarity of one side of the stereo OH track. You will hear a clear difference between the "normal" stereo OH track and the stereo OH track that has one side with the polarity flipped.
You can also do this with your favourite reference mix, it will sound obvious.
So, then again :
"I hear what you're saying about checking mixes in mono but it just demonstrates the point - there's no cancellation in stereo, it only happens when you.... drum roll please.... sum it to mono."
NO
Mixers check mixes in mono for phase cancellation because , just like for masking frequencies, it"s EASIER to hear it in mono, not because it happens ONLY in mono.
You can still hear phase cancellation and masking frequencies in stereo.
EDIT : ALSO : if phase cancellation wasn't a thing in STEREO, then sound engineers in recording/mixing studios and live music venues, who are working in STEREO most of the time, would not be worried about this thing called "out of phase speakers" :)
www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=out+of+phase+speakers
Video watched….. still don’t understand what phase is all about, but then again, in 35 years of playing and recording I’ve never encountered it, so I guess I’m ok? Lol
Hey, if it's not a problem - it's not a problem! Thanks for watching!
phase issues don't happen in mono, and they don't happen in stereo either. They only happen when you take stereo, and make it mono.
@@NedJeffery aha! And I never do that hence why I’ve never encountered it. Cheers!!
@@NedJeffery not exactly right... They happen when one source signal goes through different parallel things and ends up in the same (mono or stereo mix).
ex : guitar rig capture with 2 mics, each mic having its own track, and all summed to mono
ex 2 : drums overheads (2 mics total, one per side of the kit), each mic on its own track, and panned on opposite side, in the same stereo mix.
ex 3 : bass tracked simultaneously in 3 tracks : pure DI, wet DI (sansamp BDDI out, etc), miked cab, all 3 tracks summed in mono
" still don’t understand what phase is all about, but then again, in 35 years of playing and recording I’ve never encountered it"
You've encountered it without knowing if you have the following situation : one source signal goes through different parallel things and ends up in the same (mono or stereo mix).
It’s really not that affordable if you want a dual amp, you are talking about 360$ + tax. Yes it’s cheaper than 2 amp but still it’s not cheap!!
I appreciate it’s not affordable for everyone. However compared to real amps, or multiple versions of anything else good, it’s drastically less unattainable
What if you use an ABY pedal to split your guitar signal on the way to both tonex pedals. You could use the split pedal to invert phase of your guitar signal before it goes to the second tonex. Then it would be like each tonex is getting a fundamentally different guitar signal. Would that do it?
This is really not a flaw with the product. You are upset that it might not do something it was not designed to do. It's called the Tonex ONE. It's not designed to run two amps at once.
I'm not upset at all, I think it's an absolutely fantastic pedal.
Part of the sales pitch by IK is that the pedal is small and cheap so buy 2 or 3 if you need more functionality. Fans have been encouraging people to multi-buy. So yes it is a fault but that is the nature of digital things.
Not a fault. All digital products have this issue. All of them.