Why can't You use Synthetic oil in old engines??
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- Опубліковано 31 гру 2020
- Is it really true you can't use Synthetic oil in old Engines? What happens if you do?
I've been running Fully Synthetic Mobil 1 oil in this old Willys jeep engine for the past 500 miles, lets see how it has done!
Blog with the oil data
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/ greendot319 - Авто та транспорт
In the late 60's and early 70's, I was involved in restoring a few MB Jeeps and we used early synthetics in them with great success. The oils in WWII were not very good compared to even the regular oils available in the 60's. We had the advantage in that we were able to contact the engineers that designed and built the original engines. They differed in opinion on whether to use a multi-viscosity oil or a single viscosity oil. We ended up using a 20W30W oil for our engines. Regular non-detergent 30 weight oil was used for a break in period of 6000 miles. There were 3 oil and filter changes during the break in. The first at 1000 miles, the second at 2000 miles and the third at 6000 miles. Even with the synthetic oil we still changed the oil and filter at 6000 mile intervals. One was torn down and rebuilt after 120,000 miles on this blend of synthetic oil. No measurable wear could be detected on any of the bearing surfaces or cam lobes and the only engine parts to be replaced in that time were the generator and water pump. I hope this helps. Note we are in Southern Louisiana with considerably warmer temps than you may experience.
Wow, that was probably neat getting to talk to the original engineers.
Today's oils are even light years better than what was available just 30 years ago much less 50+, and I'm not including synthetic oils in that statement I'm talking just conventional oils.
It's one of the reasons that today's engines go so much further than they did 30 to 40 years ago, yes metallurgy comes into play of course but the oil companies have really been on the ball at improving oils over the years.
If you bought a V8 small block Chevy powered vehicle in the late 50's you could pretty much expect to do a valve job at around 40,000 miles and a complete rebuild at 80,000, by the late 70's those figures moved to 80,000 and around 120,000 respectively.
Today's engines last so long as a general rule that most garages don't even have a dedicated engine man in them anymore, nowadays as a general rule the whole rest of the car is wore or rotted out before the engine goes and a good deal of that can be credited to modern oils.
@Common Sense Realist
That's exactly why I change my oil every 3,000, because after that package wears out especially the anti moisture chemicals it's downhill from there, that includes synthetics, I only recently started using it because only lately has it come down in price to where it's only a few dollars more than conventional for a 5 qt jug.
I wasn't going to spend all that money on an oil that even if the liberation properties don't erode nearly as fast the chemical package breaks down just as fast anyways and in my eyes lubrication properties is one thing but the chemical package still dictates I change it at 3,000 miles anyways.
Back when my motorcycle shop was still open to the public and I wasn't only doing private work I used to use Bardahl motorcycle oil in all mine and my customers bikes, that's one of the good European oils but since I'm not a dealer anymore I don't have access to it.
Gerard, I have read extensively in an online forum (Bob Is The Oil Guy), much to the same effect. The general consensus is to wear in a new engine rings using a high quality conventional oil, in this case suited for an engine with flat tappets. After this break in period you can transition to a full synthetic oil.
Based on oil analysis, the consensus is that full synthetic oils have a detergent component that is extremely potent for the first few thousand miles, and then less so. The lubricity of the oil is largely inherent in the synthetic medium itself, and this is very long lived. Longer oil change intervals are not only more economical with full synthetics, but also optimize engine life. Changing synthetic oil on the same schedule as a conventional oil may feel like babying your rig, but it is really diminishing the longevity of the engine by subjecting it to the aggressive impact of the detergent additives on a continual and ongoing basis.
Sampling your oil and sending it off for analysis is the only way to know for sure how well suited your oil is for your engine, and when it is diminishing in effectiveness.
The beauty of full synthetic oil in a vehicle that is driven for low miles is that you may not need to change it seasonally, and you need not worry about changing it annually due to breakdown from oxygenation (as is the case with conventional oil). If you don't have water accumulation or ring blow by then you need not worry about length of time in service at all, just miles. Partially synthetic oils do not offer this benefit.
@@ivermec-tin666
That's only true under certain circumstances, one of the biggest flaws in oil testing is the use of fleet vehicles for testing purposes of the oil in gasoline engine's, ie taxi's, delivery trucks and vans, and construction vehicles such as pickup trucks.
On the surface that looks good and in most regards it is, but there's one big difference between vehicles used in those situations and average everyday vehicles used by the majority of people, and that's heat cycles per miles.
The issue here is the chemical package, what gives it moisture protection and the multi weight features breaking down with emphasis on the moisture protection especially, those chemical packages break down faster in a vehicle that gets started and driven for a short amount of miles compared to a fleet vehicle such as a taxi that gets started and run the better part of the day, something that puts on a lot of miles.
The same rules that apply to the health of an exhaust system apply to the chemical packages in oil, as an experienced mechanic I've seen how many more times per miles and time itself that the owner of a vehicle that gets started and driven a short distance to work everyday has to replace an exhaust system compared to someone with the same model and year that starts their vehicle and has to drive 50 miles to work everyday, the one only driving a few miles to work everyday replaces exhaust systems far more often than than one driving 50 miles to work everyday because the exhaust creates condensation when heating up and doesn't get driven long enough for the system to heat up enough and dry itself out, then it gets shut off and all that moisture lays in the exhaust and rots it from the inside out, early 80's Volvo station wagons were horrible for that with all their twists and turns for that moisture to lay in, but customers with the same model of Volvo that drive 50+ miles to work everyday only had to replace their exhaust a fraction of the time.
I've also seen the moisture that gets trapped in engine's started and run for a short amount of time then shut off especially when started on chilly mornings from working on Harley's, prior to the Twin Cam all big twin engine's had a timing plug on the left side engine case that has to removed to set the timing using marks on the left side engine flywheel, starting one up on a chilly morning and running it just long enough to shut off the choke and get it to successfully hold an idle then removing the timing plug from the left side engine case reveals what looks like a chocolate milkshake being used for lubrication in the engine, that's what motor oil looks like when mixed with water, as a matter of fact I have a pinion bearing race from a Harley big twin (unlike automobile or truck engine's Harley bottom ends use roller bearings as compared to the shell bearings in auto and truck engine's) that has the bottom ⅓rd rotted from the engine being repeatedly started and run for short amounts of time, I keep it to show to people as an example of what happens when a friend of theirs comes into town for Christmas and they take them out to their garage to show them their new pride and joy and of course have to start it up which leads to all that moisture being created in the bottom end and it doesn't get run long enough to dry everything out via the heat created by being run to full operational temperature as opposed to just heating up the combustion chamber enough to get an idle, it's because of the unique way of setting the timing on a Harley that I've seen something that I never saw with automobile's since at no time will you get to look inside a cars engine after running it for just a short amount of time after starting it on a chilly morning.
After witnessing that I take very seriously the subject of heat cycles per miles on an engine and it's effect on the chemical package parts related to moisture protection, those chemicals wear out much more quickly in the oil run in an engine that only gets driven short distances after being started, matter of fact there's a store at the bottom of the hill where I live that's close enough that in the winter after going down there and back the temperature guage in my car doesn't even start to register on cold mornings, if I have to go there after I leave I drive to the next town up the road and back to fully bring the cars engine up to it's operating temperature.
And until I see a study done specifically on the oil analysis of engine's that get started and driven only short distances on a daily basis I split the difference on the recommended mileage for changes between conventional and synthetic oil, especially since synthetic oil has become so much less expensive in the past 5 years or so, there's synthetic oil out there that's been certified by the API that's less than $3 more per 5 quart jug than conventional oil from the same manufacturer, $12 and pennys compared to $14 and pennys, after years experience as a mechanic I still firmly believe in what the mechanic said in those old Castrol oil commercials concerning oil changes, "You can pay me now or you can pay me later".
Immediately after rebuild, you might want to use non antiwear oil for burn-in then switch to synthetic
Jason from Maryland here
Good vid friend 👍!
BTW, I've always used Mobil ONE full sun 10w30 for I've 25 years in all of my 10+ Jeeps.
Happy new year mate! Cheers 🍻!
Good work Jason, nice to hear and thanks for your support! Matt
Just my two pennyworth: You are absolutely correct with the Jeep engine, the Jeep engine despite the L-head sidevalve design is actually quite modern in construction with a full flow oil pump and a filter.
Many contemporary cars, up into the 50s, did not have oil filters beyond a strainer on the oil pick up, the engines were designed to trap wear particles in dead end recesses in the oil galleries in the crank where they would be flung by centrifugal force. (These can be very difficult to clean out on rebuild.)
The crucial difference was in the oil. Modern detergent oils are designed to keep all the crap in suspension so that it can be trapped in the filter. This is no good in an engine without a filter where you want the wear particles to settle out quickly and stay put.
So your Jeep will be fine on a modern multigrade detergent oil, of the correct base viscosity, but anyone else running late 40s to 50s cars need to be more careful with their choice of oil. This probably accounts for the advice that you can't run an old engine on modern oil.
Very well put.
Good one Matt! I, like many others, find these scientific and empirical based videos very useful indeed. Happy New Year
Alright. this is the second video of yours that I've seen and I'm subbing. I've researched these same things for my '48 CJ2L and come to similar conclusions. Thanks for spreading the word.
Oh hey, to get around the engine break-in properly seating the piston rings, use regular 30wt for the break-in period. _Then_ switch to the full synthetic.
I have bought a 1944 willys at the end of last year. It’s in great condition and would love to meet up when Covid settles down John at Llangammarch Wells Wales.
Cheers John, I hope to start getting out and about to some shows once the current shower wears out! Looks like you live in a great jeep driving area, even better than me in the Mendips!
Hello Greendot,
I am really enjoying the videos I see you produce.
I think it's cool that you try to dress correctly for the era of the Jeep.
I am now a 72 year old Viet Nam Vet.
When I joined the U.S. Army in March of 1966, we were issued alot of left over WW2 gear.
I notice you wearing brown thin leather gloves.
I can only assume they are correct for your uniform.
BUT, I was issued thin black leather gloves with green wool inserts which were great for keeping my hands fairly warm when I was sent to Germany as my first duty station.
We also had Parkas with snap-in liners and even thick pile winter caps with ear flaps.
We also had wool long johns, Mickey Mouse winter boots, wool socks, wool trousers and long sleeve shirts.
We also received a rather comfortable field jacket witch could have a snap in linning if you were lucky enough to get one from Supply.
I waanted to be a truck driver when I enlisted but was told I was too smart for that so I was put in signal Corps and trained to be a pole lineman.
But upon my arriveal in Germany ( in the early part of winter ) six months after my enlisting,
I was put into a mecihanized infantry unit. which was 4 days into a 30 day field training cycle.
We operated in squads of eleven men in an armored personel carrier also known as a Track.
You may know the track as an M-113A.
A couple weeks into field training our track driver refused to drive anymore.
I think the Track comander noticed my interest in the operation of the track and suddenly yelled my name and told me to jump into the drivers seat.
Though I had no formal training with this machine, being a motorhead I did pay some attention to the workings of the track while I was riding behind the driver.
Anyway in just a few minutes I was in full control of that machine !
Within a couple days of my new duty assignment I found out about the track drivers face mask and goggles.
What a great invention !
While operating that eleven ton beast from a cubby hole in the front left corner with just my head popping up to see where I was going, the wind was absolutly frigid !
That mask, goggles and drivers radio helmet did a lot to keep my nose and ears from freezing solid.
My point with this post, A smart jeep driver in WW2, probably found out about those mask and goggles back then and was not worried at all about frightening youngsters or anyone else so long as he was warm enough to maintain control of the Jeep.
I spent only 4 months in that unit before the army found a need for me in a signal Corps unit in another part of Germany so I was reasigned.
BUT, after only 6 months in this unit, due to a personality conflict between the company comander and myself, I volunteered to go to Viet Nam to get out of that company as well as Germany, which I did not care for at all.
After my year in the combat zone and after making the rank of Sergent, I was reasigned to Ft. Hood Tx. where I served the remainder of my three year enlistment .
Thanx again for your channel.
I think you do honor to the troops of the United States Army who served in WW2.
Be Safe and Well.
Good information and I've been a motor head my whole life and I learned something, , Thank You .
Happy new year Matt! and thanks for the comment on the G about the sister jeeps with the rifle rack between the seats. Researching that further.
Ahh is that your g503 thread then jp? Looks like a very nice gpw project, lots of work, you're going to be busy! Make sure you keep good track of how things were attached, bolts and washers etc, important details that all the info isn't out there on the net about so of its original remember how it went on!
@@Greendot319 yup that is me! You sent me some parts via ebay a few times. I am collecting parts for almost a year now, since I try not to use any repro stuff. Not sure if I manage that 100% but we’ll see.
I take a photo of every part and bag&label it carefully. I have as well a detailed photo reports of an untouched original ‘45 gpw which helps as well.
Tricky thing I need to plan carefully is the zink plating/galvanising. I plan to do that with all small bits and pieces since I have a company close by able to do that. But they take a box full for 50 euro so I loose control of my carefully arranged bolts and nuts bags. 🥴🤦♀️ have to figure out that challenge.
Gr JP
Interesting issues to consider regarding oil and a new rebuilt Jeep engine, what a beautiful Jeep.
Excellent video as always keep warm 😉👍
Some years ago I took the head off my 43 Willy’s and honed the cylinders replaced the rings and continued to use mineral oil . But it’s interesting you mentioned oil consumption because as the new rings bedded in the jeep did start to use a small amount of oil.
On a freshly rebuilt engine, you should be using a non-synthetic oil as your break-in oil (first 500-1000miles). At 8:06 your 500 mile oil change. If this is the break-in of the engine and if you used synthetic oil, I am not surprised you see nothing in the oil. A synthetic oil does not allow for significant wear (that is required for break-in) and as such, I wouldn't be surprised if your rings haven't seated and may never seat if you don't do a break-in with non-synthetic.
As far as using synthetic in old engines, sure, no problem. I use synthetic in my 1967 GTX, lawnmower and snowblower, as well as my daily VW.
Wondering if modern synthetic oil will attack the babbit bearings used in old engines.My understanding is you should'nt use it in an engine that had a steady diet of non-detergent oil.
Totally incorrect - All engines from the last two decades come filled with synthetic oil from the very beginning with zero problems.
Oil is a big topic of discussion in the aircraft community as well. Lots and lots of opinions! 😉.
At the risk of over simplification, break-in for aircraft piston engines typically requires the use of mineral oil with no additives. The lack of anti-scuffing agents allows the piston rings to properly seal against the cylinder walls. This break-in period generally lasts about 25 hours. You actually want some wear between the rings and cylinder walls to occur during break-in or glaze will form on the cylinder walls which leads to excessive oil consumption and blow by. The only way to fix that is by re-honing the cylinders. Once the break-in is complete, you can switch to single or multi grade oils with additives.
In my 1947 Continental C-85 engine, I use 20-50 mineral oil (Phillips) which has an ashless dispersant additive to keep particulate in suspension so the filter can capture it and to minimize sludge buildup. I also use ASL Camguard additive. This has been a winning combination for me. At over 1,000 hours since overhaul, compressions are like new. I change the oil every 25 hours (2500 miles in automotive terms) and the oil color is light brown. I tried 15-50 synthetic blend oil but found it has a tendency to leak out (capillary action?).
I don’t know how much of this translates to Jeep engines of the same vintage….but if I owned one, I would be inclined to use a multi viscosity mineral oil with Camguard. That stuff is liquid gold in my opinion (no, I don’t work for ASL).
Great video! Thanks.
I concur with your thinking. I purchased a 1956 Willys CJ-5 with it's original L-head 134c.i. engine that had less than 2700 miles original on it. I drained and twice flushed the block, axels, transmission, transfer bearings then swapped all lubricants to Synthetic. I've been running that Jeep now for over 10,000 miles with little appreciable wear to any components.
Hey Matt, new subscriber here from the states. Good videos, thanks.
Great vid, lots of food for thought. Thanks for sharing!
For break in on any engine, use a conventional to allow rings to seat. After the break in period it's fine to use full synthetic.
Nice one Matt
Interesting and informative as usual
;)
Happy New Year Matt. Keep it frosty... All the best. Eddie.
Cheers Eddie, same to you and hope all is well!
Excellent video, I am going to try the full synthetic in my 42 scout car!
Years ago back in The US I owned a bus fleet. The Manufacturers and suppliers used to come around and show off all the new products. One of the things one of the oil companies promoted was their new synthetic oil and 100,000 mile oil changes. At every normal service interval you would send them an oil sample and if the oil was still OK, change the filter and off you go. The diesels could do 50,000 miles fine, gas engines about 20,000 miles, some more, some less. One thing they did say was, never put the synthetic oil in a new engine! They said it prevents the needed wear on the piston rings during break-in. They did say that after the first 5,000 miles it was OK. Back then all of my gas engines had the stiffer rings. I started doing what they said, my gas engine passenger vans that ran on the highway most of the time averaged 40,000 miles on the oil and the engines lasted between 500,000 and 1,000,000 miles, only changing timing chains and oil pumps at about 100,000 miles. They also mostly didn't use any excess oil. Thanks for the videos! the dog
Yes, the issue here is with the rings seating correctly. Rings that have chrome plating on the wear surfaces need a simple mineral oil to polish in nicely and when done, virtually nil oil consumption after switching to a good quality multi-grade, no matter if all synthetic or otherwise. I was a career motorcycle mechanic on both two and four cycle engines and ring wear was the biggest criteria showing good oil quality. Back in the day, we used a 20w/40 in our Japanese brand four strokes, two cycles did best on full synthetics right off the bat.
I suppose updated specs could be applied to these old Jeep engines using chromed rings. Old aircraft engines getting chrome treatments on rings and bores is now commonplace.
@@whalesong999 My understanding is that it wasn't factory-made chrome plated rings that needed low-quality oil. It was shop-made rings and bearings.
Rebuilding engines used to be done with mostly shop-made parts, custom fabricated to match the specific engine.
Bearings were melted out and fresh Babbitt metal poured in place using the bearing shell and soot-covered crankshaft as a form. The split between the bearing halves was formed with a brass shim that was later removed to close up the clearance from when the molten bearing metal contracted.
Rings were cut to approximate size on the shop's lathe from a steel pipe/tube, then fitted by cutting the slot and filing it to the proper gap. The resulting rings were often slightly out of round and had taper.
The soft bearing metal didn't need any special help to wear to a matching fit. Even if they didn't wear away, they would be burnished to a polished surface.
The steel rings did need help. It was important to form fresh, sharp, rasp-like cross-hatching on the cylinder walls to do the final machining on the rings. Ideally the work-hardened edges would wear away just as they completed filing the tapered, out-of-round rings into a tightly sealing surface. If the oil was too good or there was insufficient cross-hatching, the rings would remain out-of-round and tapered. No amount of future bad lubrication would fix the oil leaking past the bad rings.
@@1djbecker Nice read. That's going back many decades. My father had a garage and was a prime mechanic in the 'pour the babbitt days". I inherited a worn out shop compressor whose con rod bearings broke and got my own chance to attempt a babbit job on my own using materials we had laying about, including some big ingots of some kind of lead alloy I melted down bits into forms around the rod's journals. It did work out o.k. with a fair amount of scraping the high spots until it fit nice.
Wichita had a major engine shop, Kansas Rebabbitting, which I often accompanied my father to for parts and service back in the late '40s. They reground cranks, many other services. They went away sometime in the mid '60s I think.
I didn't know about making rings like that, so interesting. I do remember dad having a knurling machine that would force a cross hatch emboss in pistons that would reduce their clearance in the bores to compensate for wear.
There are break-in oils made to allow break-in wear without damaging a new built engine. BTW I wonder if you support installing Unleaded friendly hardened valve seats as part of an engine build? Unleaded gas and Ethanol enhanced fuels may damage old style engines. I am glad to see someone covering original Jeeps in original form.. Good Luck and God bless you.
Your treaching skills are good. Live in Old Harbour Jamaica and I use to drive a 1969 Hillman Imp , whichI would love to restore, and I use to experience over heating problems with it untill I build and remove the radiator to the front. Before doing that, after installing my third engine and braking it in on mineral 10 -30 I could not go faster than 45 mph before the temp.gauge run too high but after changing to Synthetic blend the temp. reading went down and I could hit 65 mph so I never returned to mineral oil. I also use to own a old Rupp Go-kart with a 2 hp Briggs. engine and I find running it on Synthetic blend oil the spark plug never foul, it still starts when the rings were worn and got to the stage wear the power was so weak it could not lock up the clutch to drive the cart.
I once spoke to an owner of a 1956 Chrysler that had over 300,000 miles on it's original 354 hemi, never over hauled, ran perfect. Asked what super duper oil they used. Answer= straight 30W since new as owner's manual suggested. Guess it worked ok.
If you have a new engine block, then using a multi grade oil would not be. A problem. However, if it is an old engine block, these were designed to use a leaded gasoline that left a thin layer of lead on the cylinders and it was necessary to have a non graded oil to lubricate the piston rings. This means that a synthetic oil would still permit the rings to scrape off that thin layer of lead and lead to engine failure. The German Army found this out in WWII as it progressed and they were not able to get the appropriate grade of motor oil. They tried a an additive for the problem. STP. This was made from pine resin, and while it worked for awhile, as temperatures dropped, it wound up gumming up the cylinders and rendering the engines useless, even if they were able to get the appropriate oil. It would do the same on all bearings, causing bearing failure. Fortunately today oil additives no longer allow such things to occur, however with an older engine you still can get oil smoking as there is no lead lining the cylinders.
You can also use conventional oil for break in then run full synthetic for max engine life.
Amsoil 100% Synth 10w40 in ‘92 Defender 90 with 300Tdi much better than base oils or mineral, tappets and random rattles are quieter and best oil for turbo on towing.
Good vid. Happy New Year. It looked like the frost was on the punkin (or Greendot), when you began to film. Driving without windscreen, use goggles.
Ha cheers Dave, to you too. Got the video completed in the end!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Matt...You might be able to secure some NOS rubber bands for your sleeves....That would do the trick for your claw hands....Might be hard to source though !
They must be original ww2 manufacture rubber bands to keep the ww2 wind out of my ww2 sleeves!
Dinosaur squeezins' for break-in and synthetics afterwards for the life of the engine.
I use Shell Rotella T6 5w40 for everything. You can tell the protection difference when you take apart an engine that has been sitting. Conventional will have drained off of the top end where T6 will still have a nice protective film over all the parts even after months of sitting.
On my rebuilt 1934 Austin 7 engine, I ran a straight oil for the first 1,000 miles bedding in, dropped the sump, was surprised at the quantity of sludge, reverted to a 20/50 multi-grade (Comma), buy in bulk as it is cheaper, oil changes now at 2,000 mile intervals, comes out like yours, and now does not sludge up, oil consumption seems low (not actually checked), lose a little in leaks, the A7 engines are a bugger at keeping all the oil inside!
Good work Gary, I didn't touch upon it as there was so much to get through in this video but sludge in old oils was an absolutely massive problem and one of the major things we just don't need to worry about with modern oils!
Drove our jeep 1996 - 2010 with a worn engine @ 20 - 30 PSI oil preassure using SEA 30 mineral oil.
In 2008 I bought a generator engine, total rebuild to std. between 2008 and 2010 with many NOS and great repro parts. Used a full synthetic 5W40 turbo diesel engine oil since. Leaks a bit more than the SEA 30. I agree that the synthetic oil is preventing wear much better than SEA 30. Don't know if it uses oil cause it also leaks. Sparkplugs are clean.
Break in any engine 3k miles with standard oil first. Let everything seat in then put Synthetic oil in. Best way to run a new engine
My brand new Triumph Bonneville uses a straight 30 mineral oil to run the engine in...500mls....its then onto fully synthetic.
Seem a good solution.
I do believe that semi synthetic protects an engines internals against corrosion if the engine likely to be sat unused for more than a few days...as fully synthetic drain off surfaces easy.....that could be out of date info.....I am going back 10 years with that.
Saying that Triumph do approve the use of semi and fully synthetic in my engine.
Love your Jeep....always wanted one....I make do with a S3 88" Landrover bought new in 1975....still going well.
Nick from Cheshire UK.
I am NOT a mechanic but I've learnt that you run a motor in with a cheap basic oil. As for motors of this era many or most did not have oil filters (what we call a sludgy out here). Many a sludgy died with the introduction of detergent oil because it would pick up the sludge from the sump and put it back through the motor. As for synthetic oil I recon its great stuff, it has a much higher temp' before breaking down and a much lower temp' before turning into grease. I used to use "Amsoil friction modified oil" in gearboxes, I couldn't ask for a better oil. But even the Amsoil dealer told me NEVER put friction modified oil in a diesel as it will glaze the bores.
Good information
Wear latex gloves under your regular gloves- it makes a big difference. Works well for motorcycle riding also
Agree use that on motorcycle ;)
I have a 1963 Unimog S and I was talking to a chap from Ireland who had the same vehicle. He bought the truck in Germany and drove it home. He said the journey was a bit of a nightmare as he had to keep stopping to top up the transmission oil. Oul was leaking from the gearbox seals and he was resigned to sorting it out back home. He had to do a top up with synthetic oil and this somehow tightened the seals. He ran the gearbox on this blend for the rest of the journey.
Another trick my father used (we live in Canada) was to have a "block heater" and plug the truck in over night except in August :) and at every other opportunity.
He had advantage to plug in at work usually to ... he could got an entire winter with masybe a dozen cold engine starts.
He could have fitted an electric pre-lube pump as well. Turn this on just before starting then oil is at the bearings when started. I believe Amsoil have a similar idea using oil under pressure. Oil is held under pressure by a check valve when teh engine is off. Turn the ignition then the valve is lifted with oil being forced under pressure to the bearings. The engine would last and last, still having that newness feel to it, being preheated and using a quality fully synthetic.
Learned something about oil...thanks
Great job
As a few others have stated, using a "break in approved" or even straight mineral oil is required during this process to allow the piston rings to seat against the cylinder walls. This is still common practice in most piston aircraft engines which have changes very little in the past 70 years or so. Lycoming has some good documentation and procedures on this process and master aviation tech Mike Busch has a great webinar on the topic as well. Love your content ad thanks for creating.
Thanks!
Break in is usually 500 miles with a mineral oil.
The last place I'm going for advice on engine longevity is an aircraft engine manufacturer. Aircraft engines fail at a much higher rate than I'm comfortable with. We make automobile engines that go hundreds of thousands of miles with only oil changes. Aircraft engines get thoroughly inspected annually and rebuilt all the time and cost a LOT more than most new cars only to fail in a ridiculously short time. I understand that we aren't talking apples to apples here, but my contention is, maybe we should be. Why not slap a fuel injected Honda engine in a plane? I'm half stating and opinion and half asking if my opinion is valid here. HAHA! I'll check out Mr. Busch's video. Thanks.
@@mikemorgan5015 There actually is a EFI Honda engine for propeller driven aircraft. It is called the Viking. There are a couple of options as well when it comes to engine choice. From their website, your options are: "90 Hp (2020 - 2021 1.2 L Mitsubishi Mirage)
130 Hp (2020 - 2021 1.5 L Honda Fit)
150 Hp (2020 -2021 1.8 L Honda HRV)
195T (2020 - 2021 1.5 L Turbocharged Honda Accord)"
Also stated on the website is that they are mated to a "3 gear gearbox for Lycoming style propeller rotation and vertical engine orientation" with a "2.33/1 gearbox ratio for optimum propeller speed"
@@TrollinAreYou Very cool, thanks for that. I've heard of some efforts in the diesel arena as well. Time will tell the tale.
wow, an adventurous fellow wading into an oil discussion...
Glad someone agrees that modern technology is better... lol. Here we still run our L134 at -40c, cold start and everything.
Synthetic works great BTW, in the older hotrod arena, they run conventional until the rings seat, then switch to Synthetic. "Bob the oil guy" gets into the nuts and bolts of oil. But your spot on with the oil science.
Very true, I think standard 1000+ppm zddp multi weight mineral oil for break in (if you can find one) and then synthetic to stop any further wear!
Matt Nice Jeep! I collect and restore US and German military trucks for my hobby in retirement and what I have found on my trucks and older engines concerning the use of Synthetic oils and the reason I DONT use synthetic on any of my older engines is NOT because of the engine and its older technology or the style of its pieces the same reasons we use synthetic oils in our vehicles today would still apply to these older engines! The problem we have in trying to run modern synthetic oils in the old vehicles is the "SEALS" and I means ALL of them! Transfer case, transmission, front/rear differentials and the engine and all its components were NEVER designed for the properties that synthetic oil possesses and you will have dripping parts on almost all your pieces that I mentioned previously! I run synthetic in every engine I own including my lawn mower but I run NO synthetic anything in my older military trucks for the reason I described earlier!
I don't know, modern military engines seem to leak just fine on conventional oil. I have over 21 years of Friday afternoon motor pool closeouts under my belt to prove it. Each vehicle has at least one drip pan under it for a reason. Nothing like supervising a bunch of privates grinding cat litter into fine powder with their boots to soak up the oil spots. haha!
I always use 15W40 on my vehicles. (Premium multi grade mineral motor oil)
Usually drive around 1000 miles max during a good year.
Try to replace it every 2-3 years depending on usage.
Previous 2 oil changes (oil from previous owner and 1 time using mine.) flushed the remainder of the sludge out of the system.
Ideal during both winter and summer conditions.
Plus no major leakage. :)
farmers use 15w-40 in EVERYTHING..... even cars with the oil caps that say "put 5w-30 in me"
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the key is letting it warm up in the 50F winters before driving
also... always use the block heater (electric plug that warms the engine coolant)
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some also run an oil pan heater
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they do make a 5w-40 diesel oil..... and that would be REALLY great in these montana winters
would not have to warm it up before driving..... and provides the protection of a 40
oh.... also.... you should change your oil filter at least once a year
just the filter and add 1/2 to 1 quart to replace what was in the filter
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my 440 mopar got a rod knock when the filter fell apart and plugged up the bypass with fibers of the filter media
Yup, forgot to mention the oil filter part.
Though like you said, yearly maintenance on that can prevent a lot of headache.
I always let my cars warm up before driving.
Which is the only option considering both the 1942 Dodge WC 51, and 1943 Chevrolet C15A don't have any heaters either in the cab, or under the oil pan, hehe.
Especially here in Belgium where we have 4 seasons in 1 hour and crazy humidity, it's proven to be the best type on offer.
With much older engines the concern can come up with babbitt bearings and brass and bronze parts having reactions with oil detergents.
You certainly can use synthetic in rebuilt, CLEAN, older engines. However, I would use 15W 40, or if it is cold enough, 5W 40, not 0W 40. The myth that you can't use it started because people try to put it in an old dirty worn engine with the results of 1) plugged oil pump screens due to the super-high detergent properties dissolving all the sludge in deposits, 2) because clearances are greater than they were when the engine was new, and the viscosity of synthetic low, you might suffer low oil pressure, 3) the super-detergent properties often would dissolve badly deteriorated gaskets and oil seals that had enough sludge in them that they seemed OK with conventional oil, resulting in bad oil leaks.
I remember hearing (when Full Synthetics first came out) was that you should run the engine on "regular" (multi-weight) oil for the first 6,000 miles or so. THEN change over to Synthetic....
mechanic here...
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id run a straight 30 "old school" oil for break in....... giving it 20% load
long pull up to speed..... and then a long coast
this way.... the rings see both pressure (from load) and vacuum (from coasting with throttle closed)
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then after 200 miles or so..... bring it up to 50% load
do a few long accels.... long decells
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then 75%.....
then 100%
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break in is done FAR FAR quicker than people think
and many older mechanics / race car drivers (who need TOP! power and TOP! reliability) used to say..... "break them in fast... to go fast"
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like... people go WAY overboard with break ins
and the FACT!!! is.... no matter how you do it.... if you have a failure.... it was going to happen no matter what!
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if you wipe out a cam lobe..... no additive or long or short break in produce would have saved you
in todays world.... you probably got a bad lifter (new lifters and ignition points are CRAP!! use "new old stock" if you can find it)
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so you got a bad part..... a bad part is a bad part
and no break in procedure will fix a bad part...... because its a BAD PART!
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also.... no break in procedure, additive, ETC will fix an incorrectly built engine
if your tolerances are too loose / tight..... your going to screw stuff up
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the only time i follow the factory break in.... is when i have a NEW car.... and its under warranty
if you dont follow the SUPER SUPER safe break in in the owners manual..... your warranty goes out the window
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when my mechanical skills are the warranty (aka, i built the engine)
i just drive it like i would my 313,000 mile Buick..... like, typical every day driving
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and if you disagree with me........ you are wrong
sorry.... facts are facts
sorry.... decades of experience is decades of experience
sorry.... you are still wrong
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modern oils (even syn blends) and be TOO good and slow down the break in
but its still going to break in eventually
With the yanmar diesel marine engines you have to break in on convetional oil or the cylynders get glazed and you get massive blow by. A quick hone, some new rings and oil change and back in buisiness.
I don't know if Lucas oil stabilizer products are available in the United Kingdom but I have used their products with every oil change no matter if it was gasoline or diesel, automobile or truck. I believe in their products
The base in engine oil is the same for with or without synthetic additiv, synthetic oil is for winter use, but for summer driving you dont need synthetic.
I am using semisynthetic oil on all my cars including my classic cars. So far I did not experience any problem. One thing: An oldtimer owner and skilled mechanic told me that modern oil might harm the old stile rope main seals. But I still use the oil that I put in my cars for ages.
Lately my old Chevy 6 cylinder starts consuming a little bit of oil. Before the oil level stayed on max for years without adding a drop of oil.
In the Swiss Army we received a wool cap that had only slits for the eyes and mouth. Ideal for bank robbers. It had a funny name: Kopfpariser. Translated to English: Headcondom!
I never wore it once. One reason might have been the stupid name.
Thanks for the info, I see no reason why synthetic oil should damage a rope seal, early in synthetic oil development there was an issue with some seals being attacked by early synthetics but they solved that problem. An old rope seal is made from asbestos and that is certainly not attacked by synthetic oil! I like your story about the 'balaclava' (from the Crimean war!) I wouldn't wear a coat at work that was referred to as the 'condom coat' ha ha, nothing changes!
I tried Mobile One in my motorcycle, to make it easier to start in the winter. I forgot about the wet clutch, and the clutch slipped a lot with synthetic oil.
Do the STP screwdriver and oil dip test. Back in the 60's to the 80's I used STP to not only AID the oil viscosity as the crankcase oil thinned from piston blow-by, but also prevented seal cracking and wear on the back rope seal too. With modern engines though, STP isn't as advisable having closer tolerances, and no-more parking lot oil stains with better crank sealing. Today I treat the motor METAL, Not the motor oil.
Nice little vid.brrrŕ.Best thing i heard was that a cheap crap oil when new is better than an expensive one when its too old.
Cheers&thumbs up.
synthetics are better at permeating the microscopic pores in metal and offer improved lubrication. If you have marginal gaskets or seals with conventional oil then you will get oil leaks. When Mobil 1 came out I used it in my Norton motorcycles and no leaks. I have torn down engines with over 100k miles that had used Mobile 1 and no cylinder ridge and you can still see the cylinder hone marks.
Modern oil is decent. Even the cheap stuff. You keep up with regular oil changes just about any engine will last.
very true, nearly any modern oil is better than WW2 oil
I use synthetic oils even in russian UAZ or VW Beetles, as weel engine flush in every change... and add MoS2 addative :) No issues ever.
Thanks for the input Jakub
No need to flush when using a _fully synthetic_ oil.
@@johnburns4017 its not true. :) Even if the clean better than normal oil, they still left some "dirt" especially semi synthetics
@@jakubstrumillo
Semi synthetics are a con, as most is mineral oil.
Your problems may be the MoS2. Just only use a suitable quality *_fully_* _synthetic_ oil.
ua-cam.com/video/UnNahISE_nU/v-deo.html
I did 175,000 miles in a Toyota from new using only _fully synthetic_ oil. No problems. New owner has no problems either.
I would use Shell Rotella 15w40. The engines in the Mbs are pretty close to the Ford N series tractors and Model A's with flat tappets. Diesel oil has high zinc content. Might be good. Just a thought
Avoid any friction-modifiers during ring break-in
This is a big reason behind why modern diesels take so very long to run-in as they come from the factory with top-notch synth oil....
You can add the zinc additive with the syn oil.
I have 1957 Cj5 with, Land Rover 2.8 tdi engine... here in Brazil requests 15w40 oil... but I'm using 5w40... even the engine noise changed for more smooth sound...
Using Motul 6100 or Castrol Magnatec...
1965 land rover diesel. Went from 15w40 mineral to 15w40 semi synthetic. It killed the engine as all the gunk came lose and blocked the oil pump.... 1978 land rover diesel, same engine and took it apart to boil the block so it is clean. No issues after rebuild using semi synthetic.
The semi-synthetic didn't kill the engine, the mineral oil did, as it created all that gunk in the first place.
@@archygrey9093 With new mineral oil, the gunk would be still in place and the engine still running.
@@xiamaramu1538 With new mineral oil the gunk would have continued to built up even more.
Even without using synthetic, over time that gunk will still eventually block oil galleys, oil pumps, gunk up piston ring grooves ect.
If the engines badly gunked up you can try using engine flush before draining the old oil, maybe even drop the oil pan afterwards if you're worried about the oil pickup being blocked.
Corvettes, all Porsche sports cars, and many other cars come from the factory with synthetic oil, break in is not an issue. The Dino oil for break in might only be required for flat tapped cams and mechanical lifters.
I chose a non-detergent 30 motor oil and ZDDP for initial breakin to 3k miles. I plan to use semi synthetic as it seems a good compromise.....My Vehicle? 1993 toyota 4X4 4Runner pickup.
every motor in Nazi Germany ran on Synthetic oil between 1939 and 1944.
You need to use a high zinc content break in oil. Old oils had this naturally, new synthetics do not. As long as you use a high zinc content oil for break in, you can use synthetic oil after
With non-chrome Molly rings you should use conventional oil to break in the engine then switch to synthetic.
Not bad advice Barry!
What is a oil that you like , I was told straight 40 wt Valvoline was the choice, My motor was rebuilt 10 years ago and only has 400 miles on it ,runs perfect
You said how it originally called for a 10 weight in cold weather. 0w is a replacement for some 5w specs. Even a 10w synthetic would have much better pourability and lubrication than a 10wt conventional. I think most of your consumption is your using a oil with a much lower viscosity. It's also likley your not abusing the oil and motor to the point where the oil is pushed to it's limit. Thua it's spending more time in it's thinner viscosity temp. (Hard to know with out a oil temp gauge).
I would think a 10w or even 15 w would be the best choice.
One of the reasons you shouldn’t use synthetic is when you use conventional it will affect the lubrication and promote wear. If you start with synthetic you shouldn’t have any.
Thanks
For starting in cold weather US WW2 aircraft engines actually had an "Oil Dilution" control that would release some of the aircraft's gasoline into the engine oil to thin it out, then as the engine heated up the gas would simply evaporate out of the engines breather system.
Could you imagine how the EPA would lose their minds if modern cars did something like that 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I can just hear all the heart attacks from the tree huggers🤣🤣🤣🤣
Did you check compr5ession to get a baseline and to see if synthetic brought it up to spec?
I use shell rotella in mine.
Yep heard Rotella works well, lots of protection in that for diesels
Very nice and informative video. A question from me. What about the other way around. I have an old fully run in jeep that has been running on mineral oils for I assume 60 years. Is it o.k to just swop over to the super 2000 semi synthetic oil. Will it clean up the engine so much that everything becomes loose ? Thanks again for a great report.
I would be careful because the modern oils are detergent and will loosen any sludged up crud. It would be advisable to completely clean the engine out before swapping to a modern detergent oil sadly.
@@Greendot319 Thank you for your reply; your advice is invaluable. When you say complete clean out you mean replace complete oil, oil filter, take of sump and clean, or is there more ? I will use mobil super 2000 10w/40. p.s I bought a color tune. Cheers
Unless you are a purist, if you are rebuilding an old engine, they can use modern cylinder liners which have vastly superior hard wearing metal coatings and also modern pistons with modern piston rings.
I had issues using synthetic on old motors as the oil cleans it out so good it starts leaking out the seals.
One big caution about using synthetic oil in old engines is most synthetic oil is formulated for modern engines with roller lifter or cam followers and catalytic converters. The blend is optimized for these applications. As such, one or more additives beneficial to oil engines with flat tappet camshafts, namely zinc based anti-scuffing additives (i.e. ZDDP), has been reduced in content because they can damage catalytic converters in engines that consume oil. Since modern engines no longer use flat tappets, the anti-scuffing additives are no longer as critical and CAN be safely reduced. But, that's *not* true for old engines. So, do yourself a favor... Continue to use synthetic oil for all of the good reasons you state in your video, *BUT* use a ZDDP additive to protect your cam and lifters. Make sure the additive you use is compatible with synthetic oil. (What I say above also applies to modern non-synthetic oils in old engines. Flat tappets - use a ZDDP additive...)
Bad advice - It has been proven that adding ZDDP instantly destroys any established oil's package...you are not a chemist and have no idea what the outcome is or will be.
Man I would love to find a military Jeep I haven't been able to find any especially like the old Willies or an m15182 like I used to drive when I was in the service can't find them anymore
If it meets the same spec, it is acceptable.
I prefer using Rotella diesel oil in my old vehicles, small engines, dirt bikes, has a LOT more slippery goodies in it than car oils
For driving when it is 32 degrees F (now that you are out of the EU you may want to go back to good old Imperial units like those used in your former colonies, he said with tongue in cheek) you need: Mitten, Sell, Trigger finger, Type I (Stock No. 73-M-3620) with Mittens, Insert, Trigger Finger, Type I (Stock No's 73-M-2735 thru 73-M-2745, Cap, Wool, Knit M-1941 (commonly called a Jeep Cap or Radar O'Reilly cap)and Googles, M-1943. The mittens are designed to keep the wind from going up you sleeves.
Good advise, I like my Korean cold weather cap I wear at the start of the video, really keeps the wind off your ears and head!
I use SAE DELO 30 or 15w/40 delo in all my old stuff
compression tests would have given real answers, I would think synthetic would have just extended break in periods, as others said use regular oil for break in and switch to synthetic after if you are worried about it.
So the question is....what does it matter if you extend the break in period with synthetics because you also extend the total engine life, an engine that used to need to be rebuilt at 30-40k cam now go for 100k. That extra oil burn in the 'break in' is surely worth it
Wow! Great uniform! Synthetic oil is too liquid for old motors, I think, yes, you can fill it, but it's better not to do it. I fill my engine, 1970 Lada 1200 (Fiat 124), with Castrol Magnatec 10W-40 semi synthetic oil, and no problem. Thank you for the video! Happy New Year!
The racing industry says synthetic oil does Not contain Zinc. And Zinc is needed for flat tappet cam type engines.
With the synthetic, did you have any leaks develop? That was the issue I had with synthetic in my 134L. I switched back to the Rotella 10w30 and life is good!
Hi Tom, No leaks just some oil consumption!
Happy New Year! My ignorance tells me that "thinner" 0w 30 and 10w 30 grade oils are too thin and are prone to promote leaking past gaskets. Is this a truth or a myth in your opinion / experience please? Great video as usual! Many thanks.
This is incorrect, 0w cold is 5.6 times thicker than 40w when its hot so if your jeep leaks when its cold and the oil behaves like 0W then it will leak when its warm and 5.6 times thinner! If A gasket is going to leak its going to leak no matter what (unless you fill the engine with crude oil or something like that!) and using a thicker oil to prevent leaks will cause unnecessary damage to your engine to prevent the loss of a few cents worth of oil, the long and short of it is if an engine leaks it needs attention and the leak rectifying not trying to get round it by using thicker oil grades, that is shade tree mechanic territory and the Sergeant will not stand for it ;) ha ha
@@Greendot319 Good answer Matt. I will do an oil change with Mobil 1 semi-synthetic and fit a new sump gasket over the next few weeks then! Cheers, Clive
Where about are you Clive, your oil choice can depend a lot on where you are, Also how old is the engine etc. Suddenly changing oils on an engine that's behaving itself for many years can cause problems. Imagine you have run a motor with a lower detergent oil, some sludge has built up and captured metal particles and carbon etc, same in the rings too, suddenly you switch to a highly refined synthetic with high detergent levels, all of those bits of captured metal are now released from the sludge and carried through your engine where as it used to be stored away in the gook waiting for your to clean it out next time you did a rebuild; same thing goes for the rings, engines running fine, switch to higher detergent oil, carbon built up in rings that was helping to seal is broken lose with the new oil and you lose compression and your jeep starts smoking. This is also true of the old seals too, gunk sometimes helps them seal and cleaning it out suddenly makes them start leaking! It is worth being careful changing oils on a good running engine for these reasons, what might work very well in a new clean engine might not work so well in a good old motor, it all depends on your engines circumstances!
@@Greendot319 "Design and make a can of worms!" The engine was rebuilt by the previous owner, new innards, bills to prove, and had done 500 miles when we bought it. New Morris 20w50 was put in upon purchase, that oil has now done 2000 miles and is just over 2 years 4 months old. My intention was to simply change it for the same oil but your video made me think twice. You last reply has made me think even further!!
It has a very slight weep from the rear rope seal and the sump gasket seems a bit moist all around. "If it's not broke don't mend it" springs to mind but from what you have just said, I think it would tolerate a change to semi-synthetic given it's apparent youth. Maybe drop the oil and see how clean it is and take a decision from there. It's cold in Northants at present so I may wait a few weeks for the garage to warm up a bit!
Cheers
Clive
The pump can pump it instead of using friction engine hot 30w warm up pump pick it up. 10 w pump cold pump push forward.
You may have to re-hone the cylinders knowing now that you've broken it in the wrong way.
Shouldn't have done the oil test until break-in was over.
And they do make special break in oil. Don't know what it's called and I don't know what's available in your country but usually break in oil is non detergent. It may not say break in oil but it will say non-detergent oil.
Hone the cylinders again and then use non detergent oil to break in the Rings then do the fully synthetic test again.
Shes all fine at 1500 miles now!
I have seen manuals stating that a pint or so of Kerosene can be added to 30W oil in an emergency.
even conventional multiweight wont have any metal in it after just 500 miles unless you have a serious engine problem
Probably a good idea. Break-in rings with cheapo. Military vehicles are often specified to last 1 battle, so long-term wear is not considered during a war. Motorcycle gauntlets.
WHAT A CROCK!!!! I put synthetic oil in EVERYTHING,Never had a problem
Break in should not be done with a synthetic but after that it should be fine as long as you continue to service it at regular intervals.
Your bypass filter should have caught a lot of debris in your oil. Cut it open and check it out when you change it. My Super Hurricane and other 40s/50s engine all used oil regardless of type until around 2000-3000 miles.
Cheers Ben, it drank 1 litre in 600 miles which is not low but not also really excessive considering the super wear protection of the oil slowing the break in of the rings. I'm keen to see how its drinking habit develops the more miles I put on it, just paranoid about causing it any lasting damage but the more I've learnt about rings and engine tech the more confident I am in the little engine ;)
@@Greendot319 1 liter (one of us has that misspelled ;) ) in 600 miles is pretty decent since you were running 0w-40 synthetic. Its the fun of a new engine. Looking forward to more. Thanks again and Happy New Year!
Cheers Ben, my next break in will be more conventional, 100-50 miles of multiweight mineral oil 1000ppm+ zddp and then switch to fully synth
I switch to synthetic at 60k and started using 1 quart for every 1000 miles I drove it did not work so well for me
There is a passage within Jack Herer's book 'The Emperor wears No Clothes'; "Parts of his aircraft engine were lubricated with cannabis hempseed oil" ; during world war two era.
Any chance this lubricant was used with Jeeps as well?
You can. Just after the engine has been broken in.