I bought my boat 16 years ago and it has a wide stern and twin rudders. The strange thing is that I have never had a problem with steering control in port, on the contrary it steers better with two rudders vs boats with single rudders even at extremely low speed. Another weird thing is, I've never had technical issues with the bow thruster in 16 years, but maybe that's because I don't need to use it that often. Finally, believe it or not, we sail faster and with at least the same wind angle compared to single rudder boats. I would also like to point out that a big advantage of twin rudders is that the autopilot is able to steer in strong winds and heeling because the rudder control is outstanding. The boat is an Elan 450
Sounds good. I sold my boat, but I've considered building in two rudders myself. For the old one was old, and if you go to sea, you do not want a rudder problem. Most owners of such boats have checked and reinforced the construction. The owners who race, they got large genakers, the rudder takes huge forces. Those people know what's inportant. The best accident is a bent stainless steel shaft. Rudder pointing a bit off. Oops. If it breaks off, you have an ugly hole under water. But the real reason, one rudder gets in trouble when the boat heels a lot. I don't want that. Two rudders are never dead vertical, there is an angle for a reason. And my last thing you can think about. We are stuck to the ship designs of the last few decades. And most sailing boats are based on fishing boats. How old depends, a lot is end 19th century. Those ships are proven, it was survival of the fittest boat shape. And today, when you buy such a race boat based yacht, you also get all the disadvantages. We KNOW that, I guess most people IGNORE such designs. Nice, but not for me. Thank God my budget is tiny. I just peddle a canoe and I can tell you, that is good. Good luck with those super yachts.
If you own a boat and get out sailing, why on earth would you be watching this moron. He targets idiots with his verbal diarrhoea and false information.
I have had a Beneteau 323 for 18 seasons. It is the shoal draft model with a lifting keel and twin rudders. I have never encountered the problems you describe in maneuvering in the marina. I find that it maneuvers slightly differently from a single rudder, but has definite motion to port in reverse and I find it pretty easy to maneuver, even in tight quarters and even in wind or current.
I have a Jeanneau 39i which is quite beamy, although not as extreme as the latest crop of pie shaped boats, it is still pretty wide. We absolutely love it, and we sail upwind alot. I think people who haven't sailed these modern hull designs tend to overstate the tendency to pound to weather. Our boat is quite fast and comfortable upwind, and it is very well balanced. For coastal cruising I will take a beamy modern boat over a skinny old design all day!
I own a narrow boat, and race on a wide boat. In heavy weather big waves both boats regularly slam in the waves in the most frightening way, but the wide boat is still quite a lot dryer in the cockpit. What I like more in the narrow boat is the safety of the cockpit, on a wide boat it is always a long way down from the rail. But all boats have their perks.
As a very happy Catalina 445 owner, I'd say you hit the nail on the head! Our Catalina sails well on all points of sail, doesn't pound in a seaway with no creaking down below, and is comfortable at anchor. My wife and I are in our late sixties, and find this boat easy to handle in the ocean as well as in tight marinas. She's well built with over sized deck hardware, points well, and sails 5-6 knots in 8-9 knots of breeze. For a fairly heavy cruiser, that's darn good! By comparison, I've raced on a Beneteau Oceanis 45 and crewed on the new Jeanneau 440. I found that neither boat points well... a full 10-15 degrees lower... and both are slow in light air. Also, the swept back spreaders make it impossible to sail dead down wind. While that wide transom helps in heavy air, it's a hindrance in light air, creating a lot of drag. And let's face it, most of us are sailing with our wives and family and most days avoid anything more than 20 knots of wind. So these boats offer very limited sailing performance. Big beamy boats make great "dockominiums", but are disappointing under sail. That's just a fact that doesn't seem to make it into the cruising magazines. Lastly, we're still in love with the interior of out boat. It's beautiful and comfortable with a spacious main salon. I will say that the sleeping accommodations are not as spacious in our 445, but they are more than adequate. The european manufacturers are following IKEA construction methods that (in my opinion) will not stand the test of time. My wife and I went to the Newport Boat Show this year and came away knowing we purchased the right boat 5 years ago. We wouldn't trade her for anything! Thank you Catalina for building a great boat and thank you Practical Sailor shining a light!
What a great comment. Well thought out and in depth. BUT, I too find that boat speed in that wind speed a bit unbelievable, especially for a cruising / live aboard yacht.
As an owner of one of those modern hull shapes (Jeanneau SO 440) I can tell you that they absolutely point very well. I have gone a steady 8.5 knots at 30 degrees to the apparent wind for long comfortable passages. They will slam if motored directly into the wind, but if you fall off and sail (they are sailboats) she will heel to the chine and it cuts through the water like a v hull on a motor boat and that twin rudder is now straight down and completely dug in. You are not going to round up. The reason many of these boats don't point well is not because of hull shape, but because owners choose a shoal draft keel, and in-mast furling on a 40 ft boat. Pointing well relies on good sails, sheeted in at the correct angle, and draft. You would help people a lot more by telling them to go with the standard keel and traditional mainsail. Those are far worse modern trends.
@@alkaholic4848 glad you like in mast or in boom furling. Personally I KISS and slab reefing to a sailor who practices reefing and has lazy jacks it takes no longer to raise and set a Main sail or reef down then it takes most roller reefing mains. Now my boat is MUCH smaller then many well healed sailors who can afford a new 40 ft boat but… I don’t even have roller furling on my head sails. I have slab reefed head sails (jib and staysail) and hank on sails. I change sails based on conditions I reef well before needed and the few times I was caught by a squall and it wind went from 7pm its to 20knit gusts in 3 min. (It really didn’t I was just unfamiliar with local weather conditions at that time and made the mistake of thinking oh that squall will miss us) but when it hit my preparations and ability to douse my head sail and reef my main in seconds not minutes I depowerd and not only saved my boat but never even lost a head sail or ever felt out of control. I have seen roller furling both head sails and roller reefed mains Stuck because the load on the sail was more then the roller reefing system could handle and the boat broached and or head sails were ripped to shreds because the sailor relied on the roller furling hardly ever went forward or even ventured out of the cockpit normally so they were big repaired to go forward to unjam a furler that wouldn’t allow them to reef down. They were not even used up going as far as the mast and because of this their boat didn’t have proper safety lines and harnesses to make going forward to reduce sail safely. So ya roller furling is great Ina nice calm day sail when they reef as they should but I have seen far too many boats return with a tattered Genoa that was caught out or jammed. Seen furling lines chafe and snap and all ghe sail roll out while on passage again now a big 150 Genoa is out in 15-20 knots and the skipper is now faces with going forward to try and get it down but that are not used to leaving the cockpit even on a nice weather the thought of going forward in a blow and swell scares the shit out of them as it’s not something the are used to doing safely. Other people have actually died when in mast furling failed and a boom preventer snapped and the boom struck the crew members and killed them huge sail Ina large boat with heavy in boom furler swinging free with a loose main sheet was a recipe for disaster
I’m not even an amateur sailor, sailing is just something I’ve enjoyed when I gotten to spend some time under sail. I have no idea who is right but major points for having a civil conversation with each person having what seems like a reasonable position.
I 've just returned from a one week cruise on a Solaris 40 in the Cyclades. This boat is designed just the way you described, a near perfect triangle. But man, this beast was the best cruiser I've ever sailed! Reaching with a Gennaker at 25kts true wind was like driving a Ferrari, simply unbelievable. Going upwind was equally impressive, 14 kts true and 9 kts speed on the log, even at sub 10kts wind we were seeing speeds just 2-3 kts below the true wind. The boat had twin rudders, of course, but no bow thruster, I was a bit worried when the base manager told me about that. But it turns out, the boat was actually quite easy to maneuver in the marina, if you need to make a tight turn, forward or reverse, simply put the engine into neutral, the boat turns immediately. Just make sure to have plenty of speed. Next year, it's gonna be a Pogo 44, can't wait.
Agreed, I made an embarrassing and expensive maneuvering mistake in a Jeanneau 40ish with twin rudders and no bow thruster. I did not understand how flow over the rudder and engine thrust impacted how she turned. I believe with more knowledge and practice I would have avoided that catamaran! But as you say, she sailed beautifully upwind, admittedly with a bit of slapping in waves.
I own a Beneteau Oceanis 38. I have no issues in maneovering in a marina at slow speed. The lack of prop walk is a real benefit. The two rudders make for excellent moving forward or astern. Secondly, windward performance is excellent. Just 15-20 degrees off of the wind, in 15 knots, I get 8-10kts boat speed with no ‘slamming’ of the hull even in very choppy seas. The hard chine from far forward all the way to the helm prevents a lot of heeling and the twin rudders provide excellent steering under such conditions. Perhaps you had one bad experience or were pushing the boat too hard? I find I less sail to get the best performance…. I have kept up with a Beneteau 46 that had all their sails out (Gen + Main) when I was reefed in with same sail plan to about 2/3rds sail. The 46 was heeled over too much and I was not. We videoed each other and compared notes after. It was clear to both of us that reducing sail not only made for a more comfortable sail, but also yielded same performance.
I agree with the points you make, though I think we need to be honest and clear about the market research that the volume manufacturers put into the design of these boats. They are very well packaged for their intended purpose. They are second/weekend homes, ideal for entertaining and sun lounging in the med. Typically they will be used at weekends and for a month in the summer - just walk through a typical marina on a windy Wednesday morning and see how many are out there! The charter/flotilla customers will love the space and multiple large cabins and heads. They will give a good turn of speed for primarily day sailing between marinas and sheltered anchorages. They will happily cope with a longer two or three day crossing and occasional overnight passage in good (summer) weather. Yes, they will slam in a blow or rough seas, but these boats won’t be out then and if they get caught out, the double figure cruising speed under engine means it will be a quick dart into shelter. Unreliable bow thrusters? Tired fittings and interiors? Very possibly, but those issues are either under warranty or will become an increasing problem for the second/third owner. Long after the new boat purchaser has moved on to the updated model. The volume manufacturers know their customers needs and the price point they want to pay for the features. Now, if you were looking for a live aboard boat to circle the world in comfort and safety in any weather you would not be in this market segment. Yes, I know people do and good luck and love to them! There are manufacturers out there who will very happily meet your needs of those who want a boat with long legs and they charge corresponding price tags. We can’t complain that an average midrange family car does not have the features, refinements, and practicality of a high spec fully kitted out off roader. Why would we think we could with boats.
A well said and balanced comment. Manufacturers are giving customers what they want. As a rule of thumb, it was once calculated that most recreational boats spend at least 90% of their lives alongside a marina or other sheltered moorings. Having worked in the yacht marina and offshore yacht building arena (circa 1970s, 1980s and 1990s) I've seen the market change to reflect consumer aspirations.
@@wills681 I think it is only half the truth to say that manufacturers build what customers want. Just with cars that nowadays almost all claim to be a sports car and an offroader at the same time, that demand has mostly been manufactured. If asked honestly, very few people would say that they want a boat that turns the V-birth into a slammy rollercoaster and going upwind requires motoring for acceptable comfort. But of course, if you ask people about whether they want space or a boat that planes downwind... And of course, there is all the maintenance issues that will be passed down to the second owner who never gets a real say in what is produced for the market
My wife circumnavigated the southern ocean ona Wylie 39’ performance cruiser in 8 months and it wasn’t what most people think is a blue water boat. Spade rudder, fin keel tall rig etc. But, she and her partner knew wtf they were doing and things went reasonably well.
It would be safe to say, designers of old drew a seaworthy hull and then worked out the interior, nowadays the interior is drawn to attract the wives at the boat shows and the hull is drawn around it. Trends of today include low ballast ratios, excessive beam and freeboard, skimpy attachment of keels, and vulnerable rudders to name a few. The quest for speed and space has sacrificed the vessel being seaworthy in tough conditions.
100 % agree. Though it's something that has been happening for decades : most cruising boats produced by the volume manufacturers merely suffice for the circumstances of those who own/charter them - the vast majority. But they are in no way fit for extended ocean cruising in all weather/sea conditions which, as I interpret it, is the subject matter of this channel.
@orrinkahm I agree 100%, this is the best/most informative sailing channel. And Tim doesn’t waste our time with bikini nonsense. (If that’s what one wants, there are plenty of other sites filling that void.)
As a racer it boggles my mind the number of cruisers who avoid going anywhere close to the wind at almost all costs…. I’d say that would SEVERELY impact any usefulness of a sailboat. While the wide flat boats are beautiful at the dock, if I want a floating cottage….. I’ll go power boat.
You are completely wrong about modern boats not sailing well to windward. Also if you have trouble docking one then maybe it's you and your lack of skills, not the boat.
@@jessiebrader2926 Sloop. It is a German Frers design. It rides very well. Most of my ocean crossing has been on race boats, so I really appreciate and understand the difference.
I've got a UFO 34, she's old and cramped but if it can survive the 1998 Sydney to Hobart AND the 1979 Fastnet, i couldn't care less, its nice knowing she will carry me through the heavy weather each and every time.
Complaining about a performance cruiser doing some pounding upwind is like complaining that porsche does not handle the ruff roads very well and then suggesting a mini van as a replacement.
I feel better now. I always thought my pontoon boat was supper slow. It's just as fast as the older sailboats. It's too bad these new sailboats were so expensive. I would love to own one. Thanks for sharing.
Hello. You are so correct on your comments, I had a beneteau 25.7 first . Bought it new (dealership disaster) it wouldn't steer until it had water passing over the rudders, that took two boat lengths forward or reverse, slammed directly into waves, ( you could have broken the boat easily in two,) but it could go downwind with the lifting keel up, it also was a disaster until I bolted it down properly, great yanmar though!
Some lifting keels are just calculated for the trailer, or for running aground. You must bolt them down while sauling. THOSE keels are not safe to lift while sailing. You got to check that. Seriously, watch out!
Місяць тому
I agree, this summer I was on V-shaped Beneteau 38.1. It was nice on a flat sea but when swell picked up, it wasn't comfortable at all to sail upwind. Such a difference to Bavaria 46, which was behaving much better in rough seas.
Here's to your achievement of 100K subscribers from someone that remembers when you hit 10K!. I love hearing the old "Lady K Theme Song" on today's video. It brings back a lot of fond memories of your videos when you departed Canada for the Bahamas. Back them I thought the "K" in Lady K stood for Kandice.
I was crew on a trip to Bermuda. Slept in the v-birth. I was literally lifted into the air and slammed down every 15 seconds. It's a tough slog through the Gulf Stream; but, I think it's worse with these wide boats.
Love the channel and subscribed years ago even though I don’t have a boat. Also subscribed to your Charlie the Truck and HistorSea channels as knowledge is wonderful and I have been a lifelong learner. Back in the 1970’s (1973 and into the 1080’s) I built a Cherolet van and later a Dodge Maxivan into home camper vans with a bed, ice box, clothing boxes that slid under the bed, Coleman 3-burner gas stove, Curtains, etc. My wife, daughter and I camped all over California and Mexico for over 13, 14 years, so am loving our buildout of the box truck which is going to be more sophisticated than mine, but then there weren’t man, if any companies doing van buildouts. Keep up the great work.😊
Went upwind on pogo 36 for two days at 25-30 kn; yeah, it slams the waves, had fun using head. It is transat heritage. Double digit downwind comes with a price tag. Worth it. Twin rudder is ok tho, no bow truster, and it is not needed, going in revers in marina anyway 99% of time.
We chartered a Bavaria C42 a few months ago and were thoroughly impressed by its sailing performance, including pointing ability. And we also enjoyed the very wide cockpit and interior. But we did not sail in heavy seas so can't comment on comfort at sea.
Congratulations Tim! I knew you were going to make it. So exciting to watch you grow. I will be preparing for a direct hit. Batten Down the Hatches! Here we go again! Happy Sailing ⛵
Catalina 30 MKII owner here. I thought I had already subscribed your channel already since your content consistently serves up to me. Anyway, just subscribed. Thank you for making these content and not cluttering them with music. I've always admired how roomy the new boats are, but I wouldn't want to own a boat where the floor is glued to the hull. Any grounding, or even just bad weight distribution during a haul out may easily cause the glue to fail.
I went with a more moderate boat , lots of room for the aft cabin and still sails well . Lower windage , dryer to sail . And she has a lifting keel - LOVE that . Built like a tank , hull to deck joint , bulk heads all fully glassed , and even the cabinets are tabbed in . The weight all down low and in the center . My biggest concern with new production boats is they are not built to last or be repaired . They are built to look great at the dock and be comfortable on anchor , even to be fast on a reach but certainly not to last .
From a Chris Craft cruiser to a Catalina 28. I'm glad Catalina (what I consider to be a mid quality boat) is keeping the hull design a bit traditional. Compared to Cruisers sailboat interior space is sparse so more room is needed. But not at the cost of sailing upwind.
Thank you for your timely analysis as only the other day watching a review of a sailing yacht I wondered with my wife why yachts seemed to be getting so broad in the beam and it’s implications.
I have a sort of modern boat with a wide stern and it goes upwind at the same speed as the older boats, but as soon as the AWA increases to 40 degrees and more it is a lot faster than the others.
Great Episode btw, I was curious if you'd do an episode on something I am focused on which is food logistics on a sailboat. Yes, we can all do pasta/ric and canned food. But for those of us who'd like to learn more about potential food tricks on a sail boat. Specifics of tricks I've learned, ginger beer, farm eggs, condensed milk > powdered milk, hanging tomato's and microgreens, fish preservation. Basically tricks to add more fresh variety to your menu so you aren't eating out of a can or packs of ramen.
took my first and new to me old boat out a couple weeks ago single handed for 3 days and nights cruising a local lake... no real issues... my outboard could use a tune
Another big problem is to moore, park the boat! Especially in the Mediterranean boats are parked with the transom, stern parked first. As space is limited it is very difficult to get into into that narrow space the boat has to be parked.
Easy on the kayak criticism :) I can spin my 18' Fiberglass Stellar sea kayak on a dime. I'm a sea-kayaker turned sailor. Happy to offer some pointers on how to turn your kayak. Love your channel!
Hi I like your comments I am presently in block island sailing to Martha’s Vineyard on my 40.1 One comment i can say with the new boats you don’t care as much. On currents I sail at 9 nots so loosing 2 nots does not effect my d’édition to sail somewhere And yea i would not buy this boat without a bow thruster On motor i go 7.6 so i prefer the new hulls
You are mistaken about these boats upwind performance. When healing 15-20 degrees the hull is lifted out providing immense stability while the wet hul is now narrow and cutting through. I sail a Pogo 12.50 which is an extreme version of this design. 9-11 knots upwind and planning is not unusual. No drama or hammering into swells. You just go a little less high into the wind but WMG is unmatched and the more wind the better. Stearing in harbours with the twin rudder is a bit of a challenge. These type of boats are easier to stear in reverse if they don't have bow thruster. However, we should be happy to see production cruisers finally offering boats that are both comfortable, spacious and fast. Try going upwind in an older Beneteau or Bavaria. Their WMG upwind is only half of modern boats and they are not comfortable at all in swells..
I am the owner of a Jeanneau SO 440 (wide beam, long chines and twin helms). Far from being a dock queen we have sailed the entire West coast and are currently in the Sea of Cortez. From Seattle to San Francisco we had friends/crew with circumnav experience and after 800nm their comment was that it was good that the sailing industry had been thinking about how to _improve_ boats since the 1980's when their circumnav vessle was designed. I personally have backed this boat down a narrow fairway in a bad crosswind in Monterrey when the marina assigned us a slip that we wouldn't fit into. The twin rudders are awesome. I've practiced spinning this boat around when necessary and I don't need the bow thruster. The only comment I can make vs a 'back and fill' boat is that the twin rudders are different. Definitely NOT a poor handling boat. I have no issues with upwind performance. The rudders do extremely well with a following sea too.
Jeanneau Sunrise 34... An excellent compromise and probably the last decent boat model built by Jeanneau before they started making charter boats... just lift the floor boards and you'll see... and it also has a half skeg. Yes my old S&S IW31 was true blood but as liveaboard comfort, there is no comparison and this really makes a difference. Congratulations for the first 100K subscribers!
I have been sailing my fat bottom Beneteau Oceanis 35.1 for six years. I find going upwind not an issue. Some slamming, but nothing to shake my teeth out. Maneuvering in a marina is not an issue either. Once the boat is moving at 0.5 kts I have control, in forward or reverse. Need to stop quick? Big burst of throttle. Several times people on a dock I was approaching asked if I had a bow thruster and they were surprised when I told them "No."
Congratulations Tim! In the sailing world of UA-cam that’s quite an achievement. I’m subscribed from two channels, thanks for the vids from both of yours! So many reasons why I wouldn’t buy a pizza slice boat, but to me the most important, is comfort. As Bill Crealock said “I believe comfort at sea is the most important piece of safety gear”… or something like that😊I concur. Fatigue leades to bad decisions.
Thanks Tim. Great, very balanced, analysis. I would add that the chined hull on the Beneteau mitigates a good chunk of the heeling - which can be a plus or a minus, depending on your love of heeling. These boats are comfort cruisers with 6’5” headroom, spacious cabins. I only go in reverse in marinas with my 38.1. I steer with the bow thruster. Seven years and no thruster breakdown yet, but call me lucky. There is zero prop steer on these twin rudder boats, as you noted. Congrats on 102k!
Good idea to shop new boats to see what we'll be buying in 10-20 years! I do that with used boats. I'm waiting for some sugar scoops to get old enough to be affordable. Great to hear the old theme song again. Congrats in advance to 100k!
I remember moving from our lapstrake wood Gaff cutter which softly but firmly parted the waves going into a trough & our first few times on our nice speedy C&C 27 modern upgrade. OMG! 😱 It was scary enough the hull lit up with sunshine inside the v berth, but the loud bang dropping of a crest scared the 💩 out of us! A few years later we upgraded to the new from the boat show C&C 32 with nice balsa cored hull. We moved aboard, while our friends bought houses in Vancouver for the same price. 😅🤣 So young, but no regrets! Now in our 70s & 80s missing the water so much, but great memories. 😊 I'd ❤ to sail on one of these big bummed new rockets!
These newer designs have too much wetted surface for good light air performance but the big problem for blue water sailing is stability. The wide shallow hulls combined with shoal draft keels make for very poor range of positive stability.
Thank you, IMHO wide rear ends do not only slam into waves up- wind, they also suck down-wind, if the swell is slightly offset from the course. The stern slides down the wave, the boat yaws heavily and make steering very difficult,. You need to change course or rig a preventer in order to avoid accidental gybes.
Big Congratulations! Happy to have contributed. Glad you can still use the music!! Love it. Keep it up. Looking forward to more of Charlie the Truck too. Got my Lady K T-shirt here in the UK too!!
Glad to see you made it to 100k..... 500k next! I'm only just getting into this whole sailing thing and your videos are some of the best. I always learn a lot of interesting stuff. Keep up the awesome work mate.
Yes, well done. Missing Annapolis this year 😂 Hope to be aboard my boat (Tartan 37) next year in the harbor & working/volunteering next. From Ashtabula, OH on Lake Erie, we appreciate you & your knowledge. Be well, hope the weather is lovely!
I came up with five hull plan forms: square ended box ( SEB), Double Pointed Box (DPB), Single Pointed Box (SPB), Double Arrow Point (DAP), and Single Arrow Point (SAP). These trending boats are SAPs. I have attempted to design one. I found an big issue is that when the boat heels, the bow pitches down and the stern pitches up. One consequence of this is that the rudder tends to roll right out of the water. This is probably why these designs have twin rudders. As one rolls out, the other goes deeper and becomes more effective. But these twin, spade rudders seem very vulnerable to rudder strikes. So, I thought of putting a sturdy skeg in front of each. But that won't work because, when heeled, the boat is no longer sailing parallel to it's center line. Now the lift provided by the leeward skeg is lifting the stern upwind and thereby causing the boat to turn down wind. So, twin, spade rudders it has to be. If I were refitting a retired one of these, I would redesign the spade rudders to be massively strong. I wouldn't think twice about making the rudder shaft 4 to 6 inches in diameter. This would make the foils on these rudders that much thicker. And that would probably mean slower speeds. But I think the added security of being able to withstand a substantial rudder strikes would be worth it.
These flat big rear boats are aimed at the rental market IMO so they are big spaces on the water. I prefer my 36 foot single rudder sailboat any day of the week, and don’t get me started on the light wood ikea interiors compared to older darker mahogany wood boats. My boat is solid, not creaky when walking inside like some of the modern boats.
Congratulations brother 👏🏼🙂 Looks like you made it to 100K subscribers by my screen 😲 As an aspiring sailor with the dream for the last 8 years, as a Canadian 🇨🇦, and as a student and world citizen, I salute you and want to thank you for saving so much money, time, and the oh so many lives with your knowledge. Time to redeem that play button for all your hardwork!! ✌🏼💜🙏🏼
Coastal cruisers I call em, great for shorter trips not too far from land and with wonderful accommodations. However...avoid large beam seas, as the wave goes under the boat with a flat bottom the boat can roll side to side at extreme speed. Enough to make the gimble on the stove unable to keep up and be extremely difficult to stand up. Fun to sail but not ocean going, a handful in large beam seas. They look good though!
Sensitive Topic: First, I am a subscriber, and a happy one. I've enjoyed Lady K Sailing for years. Grazing thru UA-cam today I came across 'Sailing with Thomas' for the first time. The topic was duel rudders plusses and minuses. I did not get through the entire thread before he had mentioned you and your opinions on this subject at least three times. I stopped the vid and went to the comments. Yikes! It was very interesting reading Thomas' supporters and the few folks that seemed to be on your side. As with many subjects polarization was quite apparent. Interestingly it seemed the Thomas supporters seemed to be folks with boats under 40 feet and little experience with two rudders. Sure, as always, some fellow caught a ride a traditional IOR 38 footer and got the crap kicked out of him, and naturally his one time on a great summer day was his friend's fatty. I digress: I'm 80, now and sailing is 20 years behind me. I've owned 6 sailboats beginning with a Venture 17 in 1973. In that time I've circumnavigated in my Frers Hylas 42, 6 years and 42 countries. That with racing and other cruising in Seattle and San Diego have me well over 55,000 ocean/saltwater miles. So, I'm sure what I have to say is possibly more informed that some commenters. Second: After my circumnavigation I ended up in San Diego and stayed there 1995. I gave slide shows to make a few bucks an said my piece. One very important item I always covered was comfort and comparing Frers' deep keel as apposed to the "new" Bruce Farr's flat hull before the keel design. I've seen and talked to folks in Farr boats after a crossing, generally 20 days. They looked like they were very, very tired. I leave it at that. Third: Watching designers slowly bring Farr's flattish bottoms aft has really been interesting these past 29 years. Because of European economics not many Euros can afford boats and chartering is a really big deal in the Med. Euro designers, and builders have listened to the yacht brokers and now we have evolved into two rudder, two steering station, and two queen size beds in the after cabins. Progress? You seem not to think so in your post above. Forth: What can we do? Every boat show touts this new concept to the point that barely a tradition boat with one keel and one wheel is available over 40 feet. To hear the brokers talk this is the greatest thing since fiberglass was invented. Is it? I'm not an expert, but I have always liked the idea and the 'look' of these new boat designs. To me they cannot be comfortable, as was the case with late 1980's+ Farr designs. I can't speak for this current design, other than most of the big racers use the concept. So, are you correct? Maybe. I'm willing to let the economy sort this out. It generally does. In your/our case perhaps getting a birth on one of these two rudder race boats and get more facts to deal with. Try it, you will like it! Thanks for your good work.
The way Thomas posted out-of-context clips was pathetic. Most of the commenters came from another, even more pathetic, channel. That guy is constantly harassing other content creators; including IRL.
You give so much great info, This fat vid , I'm a power boater wanting to goto a catamaran but it is the $$$, But the fat sailing is very attractive as we just like the space
I used to think the same as you till I started ocean racing on light flat hulls. To my surprise they slammed almost nothing even in confused seas and the bow threw off much less spray than V bows. I found these wide lighweight crafts much more comfortable than 70's style hulls. Don't forget the long overhangs on the old boats creating a terrible pitching motion and excessive roll and pitch due to narrow hulls and heavy masts. Finally in terms of safety, modern fast boats go upwind up to 50% faster and downwind up to 100% faster getting you to port earlier. They zig-zagg less too because their double rudders work like a surfboard's fins or the feathers of an arrow. They all have deep bulbed keels to turn you over in seconds. What you are comparing are top heavy, modern cruisers with flat bottoms pretending to sail well but focusing mainly on interior space but are an abomination out in the water. The best sailboats are light, fast and carry only the essential loads. Try cruising on one and you'll have a blast.
What is an "overhang? What is a "deep bulbed keel"? What is "turn you over"? Could you give me an example of a boat with a "light flat hull? Thank you very much.
@@flower2289 By "overhangs" I mean when the bow or stern extend foward or aft of the waterline, unlike modern designs that have a vertical bow and the stern ends where the waterline ends. These foward and aft overhangs have a lot of weight anf create a forward/aft pendulum when hitting waves. "Deep bulbed" means a deep draft with a bulb on the end creating a center of mass of the keel down close to the bulb. Add to this a low weight hull with basic arrangements and you have a very stable boat, one of the major factors in safety. In older boats this was accomplished by lead ballast with better results in long keels where the lead is spread along the bottom of the long keel, concentrating the weight as low as possible. By "turn over" I meant when a boat is laid flat 90 degrees or even further, due to wind of waves, a low centre-of-gravity boat will turn back to vertical fairly fast, minimising water intake. Even in the 90's there were flattish bottomed boats such as the Jod 35. It's a much drier and faster boat than most cruising boats of the time. I've beat against 27knt winds, 3mt waves, at a constant 6.5knt and surfed down 5mt waves at 14knt with this very unimpressive looking boat. I crossed the Atlantic once on a 70's style boat and I basically either zig-zagged down wind or buried the boat underwater upwind. The Jod keeps a straight line downwind and goes over the water upwind, no slamming, much more pleasant. Today most Farr designs, some X-yachts, some Jenneau as long as they're designed with ocean racing as a priority instead of interior accommodation. I'd much rather cruise on these boats than on a floating caravan filled with comfort gadgets.
Great Video very interesting look at the change in the newer boats. I guess it comes down to the question, What do I want from my sailboat.. Enjoy the Annapolis boat show. Safe Sailing.
Congrats on 100K subs Tim, you deserve it man. Another informative video. I did enjoy the 46.1 as far as space was concerned but I do see your points. Not lost on me
A point to note, wide transom sail boats will tend to change the attitude of the keel when heeled (stern up nose down); this tends to run the boat leeward thus negatively impacting windward performance. You need to stack a lot of rail-meat aft and windward to counter this.
I've been a subscriber for a year. Thanks for not wearing a bikini!!!
I bought my boat 16 years ago and it has a wide stern and twin rudders. The strange thing is that I have never had a problem with steering control in port, on the contrary it steers better with two rudders vs boats with single rudders even at extremely low speed. Another weird thing is, I've never had technical issues with the bow thruster in 16 years, but maybe that's because I don't need to use it that often. Finally, believe it or not, we sail faster and with at least the same wind angle compared to single rudder boats. I would also like to point out that a big advantage of twin rudders is that the autopilot is able to steer in strong winds and heeling because the rudder control is outstanding.
The boat is an Elan 450
Sounds good. I sold my boat, but I've considered building in two rudders myself. For the old one was old, and if you go to sea, you do not want a rudder problem. Most owners of such boats have checked and reinforced the construction. The owners who race, they got large genakers, the rudder takes huge forces. Those people know what's inportant. The best accident is a bent stainless steel shaft. Rudder pointing a bit off. Oops. If it breaks off, you have an ugly hole under water.
But the real reason, one rudder gets in trouble when the boat heels a lot. I don't want that. Two rudders are never dead vertical, there is an angle for a reason.
And my last thing you can think about. We are stuck to the ship designs of the last few decades. And most sailing boats are based on fishing boats. How old depends, a lot is end 19th century. Those ships are proven, it was survival of the fittest boat shape. And today, when you buy such a race boat based yacht, you also get all the disadvantages. We KNOW that, I guess most people IGNORE such designs. Nice, but not for me. Thank God my budget is tiny. I just peddle a canoe and I can tell you, that is good. Good luck with those super yachts.
If you own a boat and get out sailing, why on earth would you be watching this moron. He targets idiots with his verbal diarrhoea and false information.
I have had a Beneteau 323 for 18 seasons. It is the shoal draft model with a lifting keel and twin rudders. I have never encountered the problems you describe in maneuvering in the marina. I find that it maneuvers slightly differently from a single rudder, but has definite motion to port in reverse and I find it pretty easy to maneuver, even in tight quarters and even in wind or current.
I have a Jeanneau 39i which is quite beamy, although not as extreme as the latest crop of pie shaped boats, it is still pretty wide. We absolutely love it, and we sail upwind alot. I think people who haven't sailed these modern hull designs tend to overstate the tendency to pound to weather. Our boat is quite fast and comfortable upwind, and it is very well balanced. For coastal cruising I will take a beamy modern boat over a skinny old design all day!
I own a narrow boat, and race on a wide boat. In heavy weather big waves both boats regularly slam in the waves in the most frightening way, but the wide boat is still quite a lot dryer in the cockpit. What I like more in the narrow boat is the safety of the cockpit, on a wide boat it is always a long way down from the rail. But all boats have their perks.
I've sailed a 36i and loved it. Glad to hear you're happy with the 39i. The 39i is on my short list of boats I'd like to own one day!
As a very happy Catalina 445 owner, I'd say you hit the nail on the head! Our Catalina sails well on all points of sail, doesn't pound in a seaway with no creaking down below, and is comfortable at anchor. My wife and I are in our late sixties, and find this boat easy to handle in the ocean as well as in tight marinas. She's well built with over sized deck hardware, points well, and sails 5-6 knots in 8-9 knots of breeze. For a fairly heavy cruiser, that's darn good! By comparison, I've raced on a Beneteau Oceanis 45 and crewed on the new Jeanneau 440. I found that neither boat points well... a full 10-15 degrees lower... and both are slow in light air. Also, the swept back spreaders make it impossible to sail dead down wind. While that wide transom helps in heavy air, it's a hindrance in light air, creating a lot of drag. And let's face it, most of us are sailing with our wives and family and most days avoid anything more than 20 knots of wind. So these boats offer very limited sailing performance. Big beamy boats make great "dockominiums", but are disappointing under sail. That's just a fact that doesn't seem to make it into the cruising magazines. Lastly, we're still in love with the interior of out boat. It's beautiful and comfortable with a spacious main salon. I will say that the sleeping accommodations are not as spacious in our 445, but they are more than adequate. The european manufacturers are following IKEA construction methods that (in my opinion) will not stand the test of time. My wife and I went to the Newport Boat Show this year and came away knowing we purchased the right boat 5 years ago. We wouldn't trade her for anything! Thank you Catalina for building a great boat and thank you Practical Sailor shining a light!
Thank you for such an informative comment from real owner. Good luck!
your catalina does not do 5/6 in 8/9.
@@dawntreader7079I know it’s hard to believe but yes it does. We replaced the 3 blade with a Gori folding prop and that made a big difference.
What a great comment. Well thought out and in depth. BUT, I too find that boat speed in that wind speed a bit unbelievable, especially for a cruising / live aboard yacht.
As an owner of one of those modern hull shapes (Jeanneau SO 440) I can tell you that they absolutely point very well. I have gone a steady 8.5 knots at 30 degrees to the apparent wind for long comfortable passages. They will slam if motored directly into the wind, but if you fall off and sail (they are sailboats) she will heel to the chine and it cuts through the water like a v hull on a motor boat and that twin rudder is now straight down and completely dug in. You are not going to round up. The reason many of these boats don't point well is not because of hull shape, but because owners choose a shoal draft keel, and in-mast furling on a 40 ft boat. Pointing well relies on good sails, sheeted in at the correct angle, and draft. You would help people a lot more by telling them to go with the standard keel and traditional mainsail. Those are far worse modern trends.
But in-mast furling is amazing, particularly if you're short-handed. (Eg single/couple on a
@@alkaholic4848 glad you like in mast or in boom furling. Personally I KISS and slab reefing to a sailor who practices reefing and has lazy jacks it takes no longer to raise and set a
Main sail or reef down then it takes most roller reefing mains. Now my boat is MUCH smaller then many well healed sailors who can afford a new 40 ft boat but… I don’t even have roller furling on my head sails. I have slab reefed head sails (jib and staysail) and hank on sails. I change sails based on conditions I reef well before needed and the few times I was caught by a squall and it wind went from 7pm its to 20knit gusts in 3 min. (It really didn’t I was just unfamiliar with local weather conditions at that time and made the mistake of thinking oh that squall will miss us) but when it hit my preparations and ability to douse my head sail and reef my main in seconds not minutes I depowerd and not only saved my boat but never even lost a head sail or ever felt out of control. I have seen roller furling both head sails and roller reefed mains Stuck because the load on the sail was more then the roller reefing system could handle and the boat broached and or head sails were ripped to shreds because the sailor relied on the roller furling hardly ever went forward or even ventured out of the cockpit normally so they were big repaired to go forward to unjam a furler that wouldn’t allow them to reef down. They were not even used up going as far as the mast and because of this their boat didn’t have proper safety lines and harnesses to make going forward to reduce sail safely. So ya roller furling is great Ina nice calm day sail when they reef as they should but I have seen far too many boats return with a tattered Genoa that was caught out or jammed. Seen furling lines chafe and snap and all ghe sail roll out while on passage again now a big 150 Genoa is out in 15-20 knots and the skipper is now faces with going forward to try and get it down but that are not used to leaving the cockpit even on a nice weather the thought of going forward in a blow and swell scares the shit out of them as it’s not something the are used to doing safely. Other people have actually died when in mast furling failed and a boom preventer snapped and the boom struck the crew members and killed them huge sail Ina large boat with heavy in boom furler swinging free with a loose main sheet was a recipe for disaster
So right!! In-mast furling and the resulting sailplan is the reason for bad upwind performance...
@@alkaholic4848 that is fine if that works for you. All I am saying is don’t blame hull design for a lack of upwind performance.
I’m not even an amateur sailor, sailing is just something I’ve enjoyed when I gotten to spend some time under sail. I have no idea who is right but major points for having a civil conversation with each person having what seems like a reasonable position.
I 've just returned from a one week cruise on a Solaris 40 in the Cyclades. This boat is designed just the way you described, a near perfect triangle. But man, this beast was the best cruiser I've ever sailed! Reaching with a Gennaker at 25kts true wind was like driving a Ferrari, simply unbelievable. Going upwind was equally impressive, 14 kts true and 9 kts speed on the log, even at sub 10kts wind we were seeing speeds just 2-3 kts below the true wind.
The boat had twin rudders, of course, but no bow thruster, I was a bit worried when the base manager told me about that. But it turns out, the boat was actually quite easy to maneuver in the marina, if you need to make a tight turn, forward or reverse, simply put the engine into neutral, the boat turns immediately. Just make sure to have plenty of speed.
Next year, it's gonna be a Pogo 44, can't wait.
Agreed, I made an embarrassing and expensive maneuvering mistake in a Jeanneau 40ish with twin rudders and no bow thruster. I did not understand how flow over the rudder and engine thrust impacted how she turned. I believe with more knowledge and practice I would have avoided that catamaran! But as you say, she sailed beautifully upwind, admittedly with a bit of slapping in waves.
The original Lady K theme song was a great touch!
Yeah, proper Hendrix vibes
I own a Beneteau Oceanis 38. I have no issues in maneovering in a marina at slow speed. The lack of prop walk is a real benefit. The two rudders make for excellent moving forward or astern. Secondly, windward performance is excellent. Just 15-20 degrees off of the wind, in 15 knots, I get 8-10kts boat speed with no ‘slamming’ of the hull even in very choppy seas. The hard chine from far forward all the way to the helm prevents a lot of heeling and the twin rudders provide excellent steering under such conditions. Perhaps you had one bad experience or were pushing the boat too hard? I find I less sail to get the best performance…. I have kept up with a Beneteau 46 that had all their sails out (Gen + Main) when I was reefed in with same sail plan to about 2/3rds sail. The 46 was heeled over too much and I was not. We videoed each other and compared notes after. It was clear to both of us that reducing sail not only made for a more comfortable sail, but also yielded same performance.
I agree with the points you make, though I think we need to be honest and clear about the market research that the volume manufacturers put into the design of these boats. They are very well packaged for their intended purpose. They are second/weekend homes, ideal for entertaining and sun lounging in the med. Typically they will be used at weekends and for a month in the summer - just walk through a typical marina on a windy Wednesday morning and see how many are out there! The charter/flotilla customers will love the space and multiple large cabins and heads. They will give a good turn of speed for primarily day sailing between marinas and sheltered anchorages. They will happily cope with a longer two or three day crossing and occasional overnight passage in good (summer) weather. Yes, they will slam in a blow or rough seas, but these boats won’t be out then and if they get caught out, the double figure cruising speed under engine means it will be a quick dart into shelter.
Unreliable bow thrusters? Tired fittings and interiors? Very possibly, but those issues are either under warranty or will become an increasing problem for the second/third owner. Long after the new boat purchaser has moved on to the updated model.
The volume manufacturers know their customers needs and the price point they want to pay for the features.
Now, if you were looking for a live aboard boat to circle the world in comfort and safety in any weather you would not be in this market segment. Yes, I know people do and good luck and love to them! There are manufacturers out there who will very happily meet your needs of those who want a boat with long legs and they charge corresponding price tags. We can’t complain that an average midrange family car does not have the features, refinements, and practicality of a high spec fully kitted out off roader. Why would we think we could with boats.
A well said and balanced comment. Manufacturers are giving customers what they want. As a rule of thumb, it was once calculated that most recreational boats spend at least 90% of their lives alongside a marina or other sheltered moorings. Having worked in the yacht marina and offshore yacht building arena (circa 1970s, 1980s and 1990s) I've seen the market change to reflect consumer aspirations.
@@wills681 I think it is only half the truth to say that manufacturers build what customers want. Just with cars that nowadays almost all claim to be a sports car and an offroader at the same time, that demand has mostly been manufactured. If asked honestly, very few people would say that they want a boat that turns the V-birth into a slammy rollercoaster and going upwind requires motoring for acceptable comfort. But of course, if you ask people about whether they want space or a boat that planes downwind...
And of course, there is all the maintenance issues that will be passed down to the second owner who never gets a real say in what is produced for the market
My wife circumnavigated the southern ocean ona Wylie 39’ performance cruiser in 8 months and it wasn’t what most people think is a blue water boat. Spade rudder, fin keel tall rig etc. But, she and her partner knew wtf they were doing and things went reasonably well.
It would be safe to say, designers of old drew a seaworthy hull and then worked out the interior, nowadays the interior is drawn to attract the wives at the boat shows and the hull is drawn around it. Trends of today include low ballast ratios, excessive beam and freeboard, skimpy attachment of keels, and vulnerable rudders to name a few. The quest for speed and space has sacrificed the vessel being seaworthy in tough conditions.
100 % agree. Though it's something that has been happening for decades : most cruising boats produced by the volume manufacturers merely suffice for the circumstances of those who own/charter them - the vast majority.
But they are in no way fit for extended ocean cruising in all weather/sea conditions which, as I interpret it, is the subject matter of this channel.
🎵🎶Flat bottom boats they make the sailing world go’round🎶🎵
lol ♪ Fat bottom girls make the world go around ♪ good one Mark ~
@@maverickmyrtlebeach someone beat me to it
Hey I like it. Byyycycle Byyyycycle
Spellcheck : it's bicycle actually lol
I am so glad I found this here.
Your work deserves every bit of 100k and more. It's always quality work. You're one of the best on UA-cam. Big thanks, man!
Appreciate that
@orrinkahm I agree 100%, this is the best/most informative sailing channel. And Tim doesn’t waste our time with bikini nonsense. (If that’s what one wants, there are plenty of other sites filling that void.)
As a racer it boggles my mind the number of cruisers who avoid going anywhere close to the wind at almost all costs…. I’d say that would SEVERELY impact any usefulness of a sailboat. While the wide flat boats are beautiful at the dock, if I want a floating cottage….. I’ll go power boat.
Almost at 100k! I've been watching your videos for almost a year and a half now, I cant wait to see you reach this milestone!
You and me both!
9 days later and we are at 102k. Hope your daughter really likes that play button ;)
You are completely wrong about modern boats not sailing well to windward. Also if you have trouble docking one then maybe it's you and your lack of skills, not the boat.
This is exactly why we love our 1988 Swan 59.
swan, one of the most beautiful boats.
@@georgeburns7251yes
Lovely boat, ketch or sloop? And don't they just cut through the water so well. Quality vessel
@@jessiebrader2926 Sloop. It is a German Frers design. It rides very well.
Most of my ocean crossing has been on race boats, so I really appreciate and understand the difference.
Wow! in the San Pedro Channel, we frequently find ourselves sailing upwind outbound and return. This is vital information for socal sailors to know.
really good to see you doing as well as you are. you deserve it Tim.
Thank you so much 😀
I've got a UFO 34, she's old and cramped but if it can survive the 1998 Sydney to Hobart AND the 1979 Fastnet, i couldn't care less, its nice knowing she will carry me through the heavy weather each and every time.
Why is your narrow boat so safe in heavy weather? Thanks.
And what makes some catamarans so safe in weather although they are very wide? Thanks again, Wayne.
My Beneteau Cycladed 43 slammed upwind. I beat the crap out of it doing the thorny path from Bahamas to Grenada. The floor grid came loose as well.
Complaining about a performance cruiser doing some pounding upwind is like complaining that porsche does not handle the ruff roads very well and then suggesting a mini van as a replacement.
Gentlemen don't sail upwind.
@@siberianshuburshun688 Made me chuckle. 🙂
You did it! The counter above says 100K! Congrats! Love the channel. As a novice sailor, this is the most informative sailing channel there is.
Awesome! Thank you!
One additional note on a wide transom is wave slap which can be very loud while trying to sleep.
We like what we see, the way you are giving it to us, do not change anything at all! Congrats for the growth!
Thanks for watching!
I feel better now. I always thought my pontoon boat was supper slow. It's just as fast as the older sailboats. It's too bad these new sailboats were so expensive. I would love to own one. Thanks for sharing.
Hello. You are so correct on your comments, I had a beneteau 25.7 first . Bought it new (dealership disaster) it wouldn't steer until it had water passing over the rudders, that took two boat lengths forward or reverse, slammed directly into waves, ( you could have broken the boat easily in two,) but it could go downwind with the lifting keel up, it also was a disaster until I bolted it down properly, great yanmar though!
Some lifting keels are just calculated for the trailer, or for running aground. You must bolt them down while sauling. THOSE keels are not safe to lift while sailing. You got to check that. Seriously, watch out!
I agree, this summer I was on V-shaped Beneteau 38.1. It was nice on a flat sea but when swell picked up, it wasn't comfortable at all to sail upwind. Such a difference to Bavaria 46, which was behaving much better in rough seas.
Here's to your achievement of 100K subscribers from someone that remembers when you hit 10K!. I love hearing the old "Lady K Theme Song" on today's video. It brings back a lot of fond memories of your videos when you departed Canada for the Bahamas. Back them I thought the "K" in Lady K stood for Kandice.
We just rented Oceanis 35.1, twin rudder no bow thruster. It was fun docking in 15+ knots winds
This is great, I have never been on any of these boats and yet I could almost feel the problems.
I am designing my catamaran from scratch, and your experiences greatly help!
I was crew on a trip to Bermuda. Slept in the v-birth. I was literally lifted into the air and slammed down every 15 seconds. It's a tough slog through the Gulf Stream; but, I think it's worse with these wide boats.
I can’t wait to see you get a play button! Let’s GO!🤙
Love the channel and subscribed years ago even though I don’t have a boat. Also subscribed to your Charlie the Truck and HistorSea channels as knowledge is wonderful and I have been a lifelong learner. Back in the 1970’s (1973 and into the 1080’s) I built a Cherolet van and later a Dodge Maxivan into home camper vans with a bed, ice box, clothing boxes that slid under the bed, Coleman 3-burner gas stove, Curtains, etc. My wife, daughter and I camped all over California and Mexico for over 13, 14 years, so am loving our buildout of the box truck which is going to be more sophisticated than mine, but then there weren’t man, if any companies doing van buildouts. Keep up the great work.😊
Thanks for watching!
Went upwind on pogo 36 for two days at 25-30 kn; yeah, it slams the waves, had fun using head. It is transat heritage. Double digit downwind comes with a price tag. Worth it.
Twin rudder is ok tho, no bow truster, and it is not needed, going in revers in marina anyway 99% of time.
We chartered a Bavaria C42 a few months ago and were thoroughly impressed by its sailing performance, including pointing ability. And we also enjoyed the very wide cockpit and interior. But we did not sail in heavy seas so can't comment on comfort at sea.
Thoughts and prayers
You have helped me believe in my forgotten dreams of sailing across the oceans, besides you are a cool guy, congrats on your first 100K
Thanks for watching!
Congratulations Tim! I knew you were going to make it. So exciting to watch you grow. I will be preparing for a direct hit. Batten Down the Hatches! Here we go again! Happy Sailing ⛵
I'm a blue water boat guy through and through. But these modern boats interior square footage can't be beat.
Fantastic job, Tim! You’ve truly earned this. Your hard work over the years has paid off!
Thank you very much!
“Keep the heavy side down - but not TOO far down” is the best possible tag line for a sailing channel :)
Thank you for all the amazing content! Please keep it coming! You sir have in fact helped go sailing!
Thanks for watching!
Catalina 30 MKII owner here. I thought I had already subscribed your channel already since your content consistently serves up to me. Anyway, just subscribed. Thank you for making these content and not cluttering them with music. I've always admired how roomy the new boats are, but I wouldn't want to own a boat where the floor is glued to the hull. Any grounding, or even just bad weight distribution during a haul out may easily cause the glue to fail.
I love the content and topics on this channel-this is a great subject! This winter, I’ll be chartering a twin-helm boat with dual rudders
Thumbs up !!! Thanks for your comments. From Italy
Really really do not like the direction boats are going.
Congrats! Sooo close to 100k!
Thanks!
I went with a more moderate boat , lots of room for the aft cabin and still sails well . Lower windage , dryer to sail . And she has a lifting keel - LOVE that . Built like a tank , hull to deck joint , bulk heads all fully glassed , and even the cabinets are tabbed in . The weight all down low and in the center .
My biggest concern with new production boats is they are not built to last or be repaired . They are built to look great at the dock and be comfortable on anchor , even to be fast on a reach but certainly not to last .
From a Chris Craft cruiser to a Catalina 28. I'm glad Catalina (what I consider to be a mid quality boat) is keeping the hull design a bit traditional. Compared to Cruisers sailboat interior space is sparse so more room is needed. But not at the cost of sailing upwind.
Most boats cruises in light winds along the shores. Looks like living rooms with a keel.
Yesterdays boats was designed for sailing by sailors.
Thank you for your timely analysis as only the other day watching a review of a sailing yacht I wondered with my wife why yachts seemed to be getting so broad in the beam and it’s implications.
I have a sort of modern boat with a wide stern and it goes upwind at the same speed as the older boats, but as soon as the AWA increases to 40 degrees and more it is a lot faster than the others.
Great Episode btw, I was curious if you'd do an episode on something I am focused on which is food logistics on a sailboat. Yes, we can all do pasta/ric and canned food. But for those of us who'd like to learn more about potential food tricks on a sail boat. Specifics of tricks I've learned, ginger beer, farm eggs, condensed milk > powdered milk, hanging tomato's and microgreens, fish preservation. Basically tricks to add more fresh variety to your menu so you aren't eating out of a can or packs of ramen.
took my first and new to me old boat out a couple weeks ago single handed for 3 days and nights cruising a local lake... no real issues... my outboard could use a tune
Another big problem is to moore, park the boat!
Especially in the Mediterranean boats are parked with the transom, stern parked first.
As space is limited it is very difficult to get into into that narrow space the boat has to be parked.
Queen comes to mind....Flat bottom boats make the v-berth crew go ouch!
Easy on the kayak criticism :) I can spin my 18' Fiberglass Stellar sea kayak on a dime. I'm a sea-kayaker turned sailor. Happy to offer some pointers on how to turn your kayak. Love your channel!
SO glad you are close to, no! Looks like you made 100K!! You’re the most knowledgeable person about sailing on the Interwebs. Bravo!!
Thanks so much!
Hi
I like your comments
I am presently in block island sailing to Martha’s Vineyard on my 40.1
One comment i can say with the new boats you don’t care as much. On currents
I sail at 9 nots so loosing 2 nots does not effect my d’édition to sail somewhere
And yea i would not buy this boat without a bow thruster
On motor i go 7.6 so i prefer the new hulls
Early congrats on the 100k mark. Well deserved and you are one of my main sailing channels I watch. You do an amazing job and we thank you.
Thank you very much!
You are mistaken about these boats upwind performance. When healing 15-20 degrees the hull is lifted out providing immense stability while the wet hul is now narrow and cutting through. I sail a Pogo 12.50 which is an extreme version of this design. 9-11 knots upwind and planning is not unusual. No drama or hammering into swells. You just go a little less high into the wind but WMG is unmatched and the more wind the better. Stearing in harbours with the twin rudder is a bit of a challenge. These type of boats are easier to stear in reverse if they don't have bow thruster. However, we should be happy to see production cruisers finally offering boats that are both comfortable, spacious and fast. Try going upwind in an older Beneteau or Bavaria. Their WMG upwind is only half of modern boats and they are not comfortable at all in swells..
WMG?
@@PaulBKal VMG=velocity made good
@@PaulBKal VMG
@@briansrensen8204 yes I know what VMG is, I was asking what the WMG referred to meant
@@PaulBKal typo
I am the owner of a Jeanneau SO 440 (wide beam, long chines and twin helms). Far from being a dock queen we have sailed the entire West coast and are currently in the Sea of Cortez. From Seattle to San Francisco we had friends/crew with circumnav experience and after 800nm their comment was that it was good that the sailing industry had been thinking about how to _improve_ boats since the 1980's when their circumnav vessle was designed. I personally have backed this boat down a narrow fairway in a bad crosswind in Monterrey when the marina assigned us a slip that we wouldn't fit into. The twin rudders are awesome. I've practiced spinning this boat around when necessary and I don't need the bow thruster. The only comment I can make vs a 'back and fill' boat is that the twin rudders are different. Definitely NOT a poor handling boat. I have no issues with upwind performance. The rudders do extremely well with a following sea too.
That’s a great point, and I appreciate your perspective!
Jeanneau Sunrise 34... An excellent compromise and probably the last decent boat model built by Jeanneau before they started making charter boats... just lift the floor boards and you'll see... and it also has a half skeg.
Yes my old S&S IW31 was true blood but as liveaboard comfort, there is no comparison and this really makes a difference.
Congratulations for the first 100K subscribers!
I have been sailing my fat bottom Beneteau Oceanis 35.1 for six years. I find going upwind not an issue. Some slamming, but nothing to shake my teeth out. Maneuvering in a marina is not an issue either. Once the boat is moving at 0.5 kts I have control, in forward or reverse. Need to stop quick? Big burst of throttle. Several times people on a dock I was approaching asked if I had a bow thruster and they were surprised when I told them "No."
Congratulations Tim! In the sailing world of UA-cam that’s quite an achievement. I’m subscribed from two channels, thanks for the vids from both of yours! So many reasons why I wouldn’t buy a pizza slice boat, but to me the most important, is comfort. As Bill Crealock said “I believe comfort at sea is the most important piece of safety gear”… or something like that😊I concur. Fatigue leades to bad decisions.
Dude I found you a couple of weeks ago and love the tips. Although late to the community, happy to be part of it and congrats!!!
Welcome aboard!
Thanks Tim. Great, very balanced, analysis. I would add that the chined hull on the Beneteau mitigates a good chunk of the heeling - which can be a plus or a minus, depending on your love of heeling.
These boats are comfort cruisers with 6’5” headroom, spacious cabins. I only go in reverse in marinas with my 38.1. I steer with the bow thruster. Seven years and no thruster breakdown yet, but call me lucky. There is zero prop steer on these twin rudder boats, as you noted. Congrats on 102k!
Thanks!
I'm late to the party after being glued to the hurricane coverage, but I wanted to congratulate you on hitting 100,000 subscribers. Well done!
Thank you!
Good idea to shop new boats to see what we'll be buying in 10-20 years! I do that with used boats. I'm waiting for some sugar scoops to get old enough to be affordable.
Great to hear the old theme song again. Congrats in advance to 100k!
Short, concise and informative, great vid.
Thanks for watching!
I remember moving from our lapstrake wood Gaff cutter which softly but firmly parted the waves going into a trough & our first few times on our nice speedy C&C 27 modern upgrade. OMG! 😱 It was scary enough the hull lit up with sunshine inside the v berth, but the loud bang dropping of a crest scared the 💩 out of us!
A few years later we upgraded to the new from the boat show C&C 32 with nice balsa cored hull. We moved aboard, while our friends bought houses in Vancouver for the same price. 😅🤣 So young, but no regrets!
Now in our 70s & 80s missing the water so much, but great memories. 😊
I'd ❤ to sail on one of these big bummed new rockets!
These newer designs have too much wetted surface for good light air performance but the big problem for blue water sailing is stability. The wide shallow hulls combined with shoal draft keels make for very poor range of positive stability.
Thank you, IMHO wide rear ends do not only slam into waves up- wind, they also suck down-wind, if the swell is slightly offset from the course. The stern slides down the wave, the boat yaws heavily and make steering very difficult,. You need to change course or rig a preventer in order to avoid accidental gybes.
But that extra space is sooooooo nice.... That cockpit looks soooooo inviting and comfy...
Big Congratulations! Happy to have contributed. Glad you can still use the music!! Love it. Keep it up. Looking forward to more of Charlie the Truck too. Got my Lady K T-shirt here in the UK too!!
Awesome! Thank you!
Congratulations on nearly reaching 100k subscribers you will get there very soon. You put out some great content. Love your videos.
Thanks so much!
Because you’re a legend Tim. If I could I would subscription 200 times.
Glad to see you made it to 100k..... 500k next!
I'm only just getting into this whole sailing thing and your videos are some of the best.
I always learn a lot of interesting stuff. Keep up the awesome work mate.
Thanks for watching!
Yes, well done. Missing Annapolis this year 😂 Hope to be aboard my boat (Tartan 37) next year in the harbor & working/volunteering next. From Ashtabula, OH on Lake Erie, we appreciate you & your knowledge. Be well, hope the weather is lovely!
100k looks like you are learning the UA-cam tricks. I love you guys
sailing to weather is my favorite point of sail...& of sailing.
Sir is "sailing to weather" sailing with the wind coming toward the front of the boat? Thanks.
I came up with five hull plan forms: square ended box ( SEB), Double Pointed Box (DPB), Single Pointed Box (SPB), Double Arrow Point (DAP), and Single Arrow Point (SAP).
These trending boats are SAPs. I have attempted to design one. I found an big issue is that when the boat heels, the bow pitches down and the stern pitches up. One consequence of this is that the rudder tends to roll right out of the water. This is probably why these designs have twin rudders. As one rolls out, the other goes deeper and becomes more effective. But these twin, spade rudders seem very vulnerable to rudder strikes. So, I thought of putting a sturdy skeg in front of each. But that won't work because, when heeled, the boat is no longer sailing parallel to it's center line. Now the lift provided by the leeward skeg is lifting the stern upwind and thereby causing the boat to turn down wind. So, twin, spade rudders it has to be.
If I were refitting a retired one of these, I would redesign the spade rudders to be massively strong. I wouldn't think twice about making the rudder shaft 4 to 6 inches in diameter. This would make the foils on these rudders that much thicker. And that would probably mean slower speeds. But I think the added security of being able to withstand a substantial rudder strikes would be worth it.
Congrats on 100k. Speaks to the information and how it is delivered that you have reached this milestone.
Thank you very much!
These flat big rear boats are aimed at the rental market IMO so they are big spaces on the water. I prefer my 36 foot single rudder sailboat any day of the week, and don’t get me started on the light wood ikea interiors compared to older darker mahogany wood boats. My boat is solid, not creaky when walking inside like some of the modern boats.
Congrats on 100k! You deserve it. And I appreciate you!
I appreciate that!
Congratulations brother 👏🏼🙂 Looks like you made it to 100K subscribers by my screen 😲 As an aspiring sailor with the dream for the last 8 years, as a Canadian 🇨🇦, and as a student and world citizen, I salute you and want to thank you for saving so much money, time, and the oh so many lives with your knowledge. Time to redeem that play button for all your hardwork!! ✌🏼💜🙏🏼
Thank you so much!
Coastal cruisers I call em, great for shorter trips not too far from land and with wonderful accommodations. However...avoid large beam seas, as the wave goes under the boat with a flat bottom the boat can roll side to side at extreme speed. Enough to make the gimble on the stove unable to keep up and be extremely difficult to stand up. Fun to sail but not ocean going, a handful in large beam seas. They look good though!
Sensitive Topic: First, I am a subscriber, and a happy one. I've enjoyed Lady K Sailing for years. Grazing thru UA-cam today I came across 'Sailing with Thomas' for the first time. The topic was duel rudders plusses and minuses. I did not get through the entire thread before he had mentioned you and your opinions on this subject at least three times. I stopped the vid and went to the comments. Yikes! It was very interesting reading Thomas' supporters and the few folks that seemed to be on your side. As with many subjects polarization was quite apparent. Interestingly it seemed the Thomas supporters seemed to be folks with boats under 40 feet and little experience with two rudders. Sure, as always, some fellow caught a ride a traditional IOR 38 footer and got the crap kicked out of him, and naturally his one time on a great summer day was his friend's fatty. I digress: I'm 80, now and sailing is 20 years behind me. I've owned 6 sailboats beginning with a Venture 17 in 1973. In that time I've circumnavigated in my Frers Hylas 42, 6 years and 42 countries. That with racing and other cruising in Seattle and San Diego have me well over 55,000 ocean/saltwater miles. So, I'm sure what I have to say is possibly more informed that some commenters. Second: After my circumnavigation I ended up in San Diego and stayed there 1995. I gave slide shows to make a few bucks an said my piece. One very important item I always covered was comfort and comparing Frers' deep keel as apposed to the "new" Bruce Farr's flat hull before the keel design. I've seen and talked to folks in Farr boats after a crossing, generally 20 days. They looked like they were very, very tired. I leave it at that. Third: Watching designers slowly bring Farr's flattish bottoms aft has really been interesting these past 29 years. Because of European economics not many Euros can afford boats and chartering is a really big deal in the Med. Euro designers, and builders have listened to the yacht brokers and now we have evolved into two rudder, two steering station, and two queen size beds in the after cabins. Progress? You seem not to think so in your post above. Forth: What can we do? Every boat show touts this new concept to the point that barely a tradition boat with one keel and one wheel is available over 40 feet. To hear the brokers talk this is the greatest thing since fiberglass was invented. Is it? I'm not an expert, but I have always liked the idea and the 'look' of these new boat designs. To me they cannot be comfortable, as was the case with late 1980's+ Farr designs. I can't speak for this current design, other than most of the big racers use the concept. So, are you correct? Maybe. I'm willing to let the economy sort this out. It generally does. In your/our case perhaps getting a birth on one of these two rudder race boats and get more facts to deal with. Try it, you will like it! Thanks for your good work.
The way Thomas posted out-of-context clips was pathetic. Most of the commenters came from another, even more pathetic, channel. That guy is constantly harassing other content creators; including IRL.
You give so much great info, This fat vid , I'm a power boater wanting to goto a catamaran but it is the $$$, But the fat sailing is very attractive as we just like the space
I used to think the same as you till I started ocean racing on light flat hulls. To my surprise they slammed almost nothing even in confused seas and the bow threw off much less spray than V bows. I found these wide lighweight crafts much more comfortable than 70's style hulls. Don't forget the long overhangs on the old boats creating a terrible pitching motion and excessive roll and pitch due to narrow hulls and heavy masts. Finally in terms of safety, modern fast boats go upwind up to 50% faster and downwind up to 100% faster getting you to port earlier. They zig-zagg less too because their double rudders work like a surfboard's fins or the feathers of an arrow. They all have deep bulbed keels to turn you over in seconds. What you are comparing are top heavy, modern cruisers with flat bottoms pretending to sail well but focusing mainly on interior space but are an abomination out in the water. The best sailboats are light, fast and carry only the essential loads. Try cruising on one and you'll have a blast.
What is an "overhang? What is a "deep bulbed keel"? What is "turn you over"? Could you give me an example of a boat with a "light flat hull? Thank you very much.
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By "overhangs" I mean when the bow or stern extend foward or aft of the waterline, unlike modern designs that have a vertical bow and the stern ends where the waterline ends. These foward and aft overhangs have a lot of weight anf create a forward/aft pendulum when hitting waves. "Deep bulbed" means a deep draft with a bulb on the end creating a center of mass of the keel down close to the bulb. Add to this a low weight hull with basic arrangements and you have a very stable boat, one of the major factors in safety. In older boats this was accomplished by lead ballast with better results in long keels where the lead is spread along the bottom of the long keel, concentrating the weight as low as possible. By "turn over" I meant when a boat is laid flat 90 degrees or even further, due to wind of waves, a low centre-of-gravity boat will turn back to vertical fairly fast, minimising water intake. Even in the 90's there were flattish bottomed boats such as the Jod 35. It's a much drier and faster boat than most cruising boats of the time. I've beat against 27knt winds, 3mt waves, at a constant 6.5knt and surfed down 5mt waves at 14knt with this very unimpressive looking boat. I crossed the Atlantic once on a 70's style boat and I basically either zig-zagged down wind or buried the boat underwater upwind. The Jod keeps a straight line downwind and goes over the water upwind, no slamming, much more pleasant. Today most Farr designs, some X-yachts, some Jenneau as long as they're designed with ocean racing as a priority instead of interior accommodation. I'd much rather cruise on these boats than on a floating caravan filled with comfort gadgets.
Congratulations on 100K subscribers. Enjoy this channel
Thank you very much!
Great Video very interesting look at the change in the newer boats. I guess it comes down to the question, What do I want from my sailboat..
Enjoy the Annapolis boat show. Safe Sailing.
Congratulations Tim, 100k is a testament to a great channel. Thanks for your relatable and interesting content. Time to crack a tinnie 🍻
Many thanks!
Congrats on 100K subs Tim, you deserve it man. Another informative video. I did enjoy the 46.1 as far as space was concerned but I do see your points. Not lost on me
Awesome, thank you!
Congratulations on the 100K, you certainly deserve it, this channel is an oasis of knowledge. Thank you!
Thank you very much!
I'm relatively new subscriber. Glad to be one of the Pre 100k. Great channel for me as a newby to the world of sailing.
Welcome aboard!
A point to note, wide transom sail boats will tend to change the attitude of the keel when heeled (stern up nose down); this tends to run the boat leeward thus negatively impacting windward performance. You need to stack a lot of rail-meat aft and windward to counter this.
Your shows are consistently great
Thanks for watching!
Congrats on 100k!! Man, you're awesome! No need for half naked ladies on this channel, just real content ❤❤
Thanks for watching!