The problem with SRAM is they had to swerve so many Shimano patents when developing their groupsets that you end up with some weird non-standard engineering. This is at the detriment to the customer. Their manufacturing tolerances are also utter crap. Even with the wires, I would pick Shimano every time - and that's from an engineer!
@@yannickokpara4861 It's really down to sizing. So Shimano patents are sized on 24mm axles. GXP used a 22mm fixed NDE as a get around. The latest DUB is using 28.99 and not 29mm as a get around.
I find the SRAM actuator setup (shifters) more logical and straightforward than standard Di2, but Di2 is much smoother and quicker to change gears (although haven't measured the speed, more of a subjective assessment)
Living in Canada and shifting with winter gloves, e-tap wins here. In terms of durability, maybe shimano but my etap on my cervelo has had absolutely no issues in three years
I do agree that the Sram wireless electric setup is quite a bit more advanced than the clunky wired Di2 technology of Shimano. That said, Sram 2x is not compatible with most modern frames. Mine keeps dropping the chain on upshifts (and much less frequently, on downshifts, too). It also conveniently precludes the use of chain catchers. The dropping chains appear to have to do with the shape and the size of the braze-on front derailleur adapter (as well as the seat tube shape above the chainring, intended to ensure compatibility with Di2 front derailleurs and batteries. That's why most manufacturers (of gravel / adventure bikes in particular) set up their frames with Shimano groupsets or Sram 1x groupsets only. Not with Sram 2x, that is! My bike is at the LBS since almost 3 weeks now, and counting. The mechanics have done everything they could to resolve the issues with front shifting of Sram Force eTap AXS on My Salsa WarBird - so far, to no avail. They are perplexed to virtual loss of sanity - they're scratching their heads bald now as We speak. After hours upon hours of futile efforts to get the Sram Force eTap front derailleur to shift properly, they have concluded that the front derailleur braze-on (a bolt-on, more precisely: thank Goodness, it's removable!) and possibly the seat tube are simply incompatible with Sram (eTap AXS) 2x. They're trying to find out, whether Salsa sells differently shaped bolt-on front derailleur adapters, because there is no way the stock ones are properly compatible with Sram eTap AXS. As far as I can see, there's no such thing as a Sram-specific Salsa front detailer bolt-on, meaning I'll have to throw the Force eTap AXS front derailleur into the trash bin after spitting at and urinating on it, pose an open-borders -fanatic level pushover ready to shell out another €1.000+ on an electric Eagle XX1 rear derailleur and a 10-52 cassette, so I don't have to walk up hills instead of riding, because Sram decided that their front derailleur must lack compatibility with Di2-compatible braze-ons, and happily was My tail like a contented puppy: "Thank you, dear Sram, for tricking Me into bankruptcy!". I wonder if eTap AXS designers are at all familiar with bike frames designed post- 1990-ies. Appears to Me, they're not.
One of the big things of the new AXS road groupsets is the reduced noise; what do you think of this, is it true or simply marketing BS? Would love a sound demonstration from your drivetrains if possible.
One thing about Shimano is that they spec their compatibility ranges very conservatively. I run 11-36 cassettes on all my bikes, with mechs that officially only work with up to 11-34 or 11-32, and some even use 11-40 cassettes. I haven't heard of anyone pulling off similar tricks with Sram, but then I also don't know if anyone makes a 12 speed cassette that stretches the range of the RED AXS that way.
The biggest flaw from sram to me is complete incompatibility with anything else: you need proprietary hub, chain, chainset, cassette, no compatibility with the previous generation whatsoever. Would you still recommend old eTap22? I am thinking about upgrading to electronic shifting this winter and choosing between eTap22 and R8050.
I just finished building a Madone SLR with Red AXS. I could've bought Dura-Ace Di2 R9270 for a couple hundred less, but the ease of installation and convenience still makes Red AXS worth it by miles.
Good luck with unreliable front shifting, slow rear shifting, breaking batteries and squealing brakes with no pad clearance :) Oh, and let´s not forget the 10W drivetrain loss penalty.
@@ronykuba I'm not racing nor intend to race, so none of your opinions are real concerns for me. It has been similar if not better than the 11s Dura Ace 9100 group that I'm coming from.
@@M3GRSD it’s not my opinion, it’s my experience. And I would be pretty concerned about getting something inferior for “a couple hundred dollars”more. As for R9100, even that was superior, so what you’re suffering from is confirmation bias.
@@ronykuba I hear what you're saying, and respect you're opinion, you have a lot more experience on the saddle than I do, but you're experience with slower shifting isn't going to be how everyone experiences Red AXS. The statement about it being an inferior product is also your opinion, and you're entitled to them. Losing a hypothetical 10W (because there would be a lot of variables involved with measuring this) isn't going to affect me, slightly slower shifting in the front and rear isn't going to affect me because I'm not racing. So in my opinion, I would still rather have the convenience of charging the group and shifting with the one button on each hand.
Hey Ronald. Love the work you are doing. I would like to know your oppinion on how much W are lost becouse of running smaller 10t cog at the back ob sram?
Stages just updated their power meter firmware and the right sided power meter readings are a bit better.. I still haven't tested mine thoroughly and compared to other power meters, but the readings are a bit closer to what I get from my Kickr. MY previouse testing showed that the Stages LR PM (Ultegra) read 9% lower than my Kickr across a range of powers.
Hey Ronnie. Love the channel and your reviews. What do you know about the new SRAM AXS working with praxis rings and SRM powermeter being used on a current Shimano 11 x 2 classic setup. I’ve been told the new AXS chain spacings don’t work with existing chainrings. Is this true?
That's a good review. Thanks Ronald. Too bad Shimano didn't get the PM right on the dura ace cranksets. Something I look for myself in a high end drivetrain is the cost of replacing parts. In this Shimano wins big time. Both of the 2 other big manufacturers have more expensive replacement parts.
Hey Ronald, My issue with sram axs for now, is the flat top chain compatibility with chainrings, I’m used to oval chainrings and can’t find an option for the 1x sram crankset or any other oval set up, not to mention I would need to use the sram spider quarq for it to work whenever someone make the chainrings. Have you found any body making a compatible chainring for 1x? Thanks
I just installed this sweet SRAM AXS group on my new Moots Routt RSL. Coming from Campy Super Record mechanical in all it’s beauty and heritage. IMHO..this SRAM group set is way more tactile and it’s wireless. Clean and stealth. This is the direction of groups going forward. Like it or not. It is amazing in all respects. SRAM leads the way! Shimano will follow and permute into their own perusal juggernaut self. There is absolute beauty in SRAM once you are living with it.
I love the concept of wireless shifting but I still can't stand the look of the bulky SRAM hoods. I'm picking up a new Tarmac pro soon and had the choice of AXS force or Ultegra Di2 but after checking them both out in the flesh Di2 has won me over on looks and being a more mature system. Hopefully the next generation of AXS force will shrink those ugly hoods and eventually Shimano will go wireless. Until then, SRAM Eagle wins for my MTB, Shimano for my road and gravel bikes. Just my opinion. Love your vids!
Hey, I ve come upon a problem when considering some upgrades. I have full dura ace 9000 and I would like to have electronic shifting but that's expensive and da 9000 parts are not easily available ,so I ve came up with idea to upgrade just right shifter and rear derailleur to r9150. Excluding aesthetics ,does it make sense and would there be any complications? Or I should wait and make full upgrade at once ? Thanks in advance.
Well the biggest upgrade is front shifting, so it makes no sense. Plus even if you have just the rear mech, you need the full wiring anyway. Not many frames, if at all, will accommodate that + cables for FD.
In my racing I have to fit within the rollout. Di2 is really horrible with lockout (basically breaks after 3 months and needs a tune or reset). Do you think this would happen with sram as well or should I just go straight to mechanical?
I would like to use an upgrade etap kit with may shimano r8000 crankset on my trek madone 9 rim brake bike. From my research i found that i would not have any problem with shifting but i don't know about braking with the integrated trek brakes. Do you think that there will be an issue there ? Thanks
Well, I don't know how have you done your research but it's exactly the other way around. The brakes work with any levers, but the Sram 12spd chain is not compatible with those rings, and the Yaw FD is not compatible with the standard gear jumps
What do you think about this whole teory about 'disc brakes = rubbing'? especialy when sprinting. Do you think that well adjusted calipers will eliminate this phenomenon?
@@ronykuba Hm... sorry. Maybe it is just the lighting :) It just looked like there is a piece of protective plastic(from when it was in a box) on the top and bottom on the drive side
"I'm not a SRAM fan I'm not sponsored by SRAM" but I'll put it front and center in my opening shot in a bike rack with the Di2 in the background on a beat bike.
I dont Think this comparison is true at all. You can’t compare a rim brake version to a Disc version. You can make your Shimano shift the same way as SRAM . I love my SRAM AXS etap on my Epic, but prefer the faster shift from the DA on my Venge. Work in a big bike shop, so I have the possibility to test all the new high end gear all day.
Try Di2 thumbs shift. Try Di2 Sprint shift, not for the sake of sprinting. For the sake of drafting at high-speed on Drop position. Try Etube Apps from Shimano. Try do this Video comparison again.
Most people are not going to install their own Di2. And only one battery in Di2 to worry about. Cheaper also. Functionally mine is pretty much flawless. But I am sure Sram is great if it's set up right. I would not hesitate if someone else was paying for it.
That's not a very good point. Sram batteries are external. If there's a problem, you change it and you go, plus they are all the same. When a Shimano battery (or wire or junction) dies deep inside your bike, you're stuck. Plus there are 3-4 types of each, so replacement is not that straightforward.
@@ronykuba my battery is in the seat post. After two years (many thousands of km) it wasn't holding a charge as well. I bought a new one for 100 bucks. The LBS installed in about 15 min. Only one battery to charge maybe once a month. No possibility of a synch problem. Maybe a wire could fail. That would take the LBS a day or so to sort out. I doubt that happens very often. Has never happened on my two bikes.
The problem with SRAM is they had to swerve so many Shimano patents when developing their groupsets that you end up with some weird non-standard engineering. This is at the detriment to the customer. Their manufacturing tolerances are also utter crap. Even with the wires, I would pick Shimano every time - and that's from an engineer!
Owned both, and to this day I still pick DA over my E-tap all day everyday....
Hambini stamp of approval! Glad to hear this. What’s your take on Campagnolo?
How does that work? How can you patent 'standard engineering methods'?
@@yannickokpara4861 It's really down to sizing. So Shimano patents are sized on 24mm axles. GXP used a 22mm fixed NDE as a get around. The latest DUB is using 28.99 and not 29mm as a get around.
No mention of the Shimano hidden buttons on top of the hoods! That alone and the feel makes it much superior to Sram.
Totally agree!!
I find the SRAM actuator setup (shifters) more logical and straightforward than standard Di2, but Di2 is much smoother and quicker to change gears (although haven't measured the speed, more of a subjective assessment)
Living in Canada and shifting with winter gloves, e-tap wins here. In terms of durability, maybe shimano but my etap on my cervelo has had absolutely no issues in three years
good point!
I do agree that the Sram wireless electric setup is quite a bit more advanced than the clunky wired Di2 technology of Shimano.
That said, Sram 2x is not compatible with most modern frames. Mine keeps dropping the chain on upshifts (and much less frequently, on downshifts, too). It also conveniently precludes the use of chain catchers.
The dropping chains appear to have to do with the shape and the size of the braze-on front derailleur adapter (as well as the seat tube shape above the chainring, intended to ensure compatibility with Di2 front derailleurs and batteries. That's why most manufacturers (of gravel / adventure bikes in particular) set up their frames with Shimano groupsets or Sram 1x groupsets only. Not with Sram 2x, that is!
My bike is at the LBS since almost 3 weeks now, and counting.
The mechanics have done everything they could to resolve the issues with front shifting of Sram Force eTap AXS on My Salsa WarBird - so far, to no avail. They are perplexed to virtual loss of sanity - they're scratching their heads bald now as We speak. After hours upon hours of futile efforts to get the Sram Force eTap front derailleur to shift properly, they have concluded that the front derailleur braze-on (a bolt-on, more precisely: thank Goodness, it's removable!) and possibly the seat tube are simply incompatible with Sram (eTap AXS) 2x. They're trying to find out, whether Salsa sells differently shaped bolt-on front derailleur adapters, because there is no way the stock ones are properly compatible with Sram eTap AXS. As far as I can see, there's no such thing as a Sram-specific Salsa front detailer bolt-on, meaning I'll have to throw the Force eTap AXS front derailleur into the trash bin after spitting at and urinating on it, pose an open-borders -fanatic level pushover ready to shell out another €1.000+ on an electric Eagle XX1 rear derailleur and a 10-52 cassette, so I don't have to walk up hills instead of riding, because Sram decided that their front derailleur must lack compatibility with Di2-compatible braze-ons, and happily was My tail like a contented puppy: "Thank you, dear Sram, for tricking Me into bankruptcy!".
I wonder if eTap AXS designers are at all familiar with bike frames designed post- 1990-ies. Appears to Me, they're not.
One of the big things of the new AXS road groupsets is the reduced noise; what do you think of this, is it true or simply marketing BS? Would love a sound demonstration from your drivetrains if possible.
Hard to say. I wax all of my chains, so they're all quite loud.
One thing about Shimano is that they spec their compatibility ranges very conservatively. I run 11-36 cassettes on all my bikes, with mechs that officially only work with up to 11-34 or 11-32, and some even use 11-40 cassettes. I haven't heard of anyone pulling off similar tricks with Sram, but then I also don't know if anyone makes a 12 speed cassette that stretches the range of the RED AXS that way.
The biggest flaw from sram to me is complete incompatibility with anything else: you need proprietary hub, chain, chainset, cassette, no compatibility with the previous generation whatsoever.
Would you still recommend old eTap22? I am thinking about upgrading to electronic shifting this winter and choosing between eTap22 and R8050.
That's kind of a bad point. Which 11spd system was compatible with the previous 10spd ones? The first etap is nice too.
I just finished building a Madone SLR with Red AXS. I could've bought Dura-Ace Di2 R9270 for a couple hundred less, but the ease of installation and convenience still makes Red AXS worth it by miles.
Good luck with unreliable front shifting, slow rear shifting, breaking batteries and squealing brakes with no pad clearance :) Oh, and let´s not forget the 10W drivetrain loss penalty.
@@ronykuba I'm not racing nor intend to race, so none of your opinions are real concerns for me. It has been similar if not better than the 11s Dura Ace 9100 group that I'm coming from.
@@M3GRSD it’s not my opinion, it’s my experience. And I would be pretty concerned about getting something inferior for “a couple hundred dollars”more. As for R9100, even that was superior, so what you’re suffering from is confirmation bias.
@@ronykuba I hear what you're saying, and respect you're opinion, you have a lot more experience on the saddle than I do, but you're experience with slower shifting isn't going to be how everyone experiences Red AXS. The statement about it being an inferior product is also your opinion, and you're entitled to them. Losing a hypothetical 10W (because there would be a lot of variables involved with measuring this) isn't going to affect me, slightly slower shifting in the front and rear isn't going to affect me because I'm not racing. So in my opinion, I would still rather have the convenience of charging the group and shifting with the one button on each hand.
@@M3GRSD charging Shimano is simpler, as you only have one battery. Shifting can be programmed the exact same way.
Hey Ronald. Love the work you are doing. I would like to know your oppinion on how much W are lost becouse of running smaller 10t cog at the back ob sram?
Stages just updated their power meter firmware and the right sided power meter readings are a bit better.. I still haven't tested mine thoroughly and compared to other power meters, but the readings are a bit closer to what I get from my Kickr. MY previouse testing showed that the Stages LR PM (Ultegra) read 9% lower than my Kickr across a range of powers.
It will never be as good as a proper spider based pm
@@ronykuba Agreed. I like my left sided Stages but regret buying the Stages LR. Wish I went with a spindle based PM as they are the gold standard.
Hey Ronnie. Love the channel and your reviews. What do you know about the new SRAM AXS working with praxis rings and SRM powermeter being used on a current Shimano 11 x 2 classic setup. I’ve been told the new AXS chain spacings don’t work with existing chainrings. Is this true?
It's true. The chain is different
How about durability of this Etap. Example if accident happen or slide out on rd/fd side. It will survive? Batt does come out?
That's a good review. Thanks Ronald. Too bad Shimano didn't get the PM right on the dura ace cranksets.
Something I look for myself in a high end drivetrain is the cost of replacing parts. In this Shimano wins big time. Both of the 2 other big manufacturers have more expensive replacement parts.
Thanks. What replacement parts do you mean?
@@ronykuba The drivetrain parts that wear out, like the cassette, chain & chainrings.
Can you do a video on how to properly (how you do it) setup the sram etap front mech?
Yes, but Sram already have it
Hey Ronald,
My issue with sram axs for now, is the flat top chain compatibility with chainrings, I’m used to oval chainrings and can’t find an option for the 1x sram crankset or any other oval set up, not to mention I would need to use the sram spider quarq for it to work whenever someone make the chainrings. Have you found any body making a compatible chainring for 1x? Thanks
Aerocoach and PCD will soon offer AXS options.
I just installed this sweet SRAM AXS group on my new Moots Routt RSL. Coming from Campy Super Record mechanical in all it’s beauty and heritage. IMHO..this SRAM group set is way more tactile and it’s wireless. Clean and stealth. This is the direction of groups going forward. Like it or not. It is amazing in all respects. SRAM leads the way! Shimano will follow and permute into their own perusal juggernaut self. There is absolute beauty in SRAM once you are living with it.
I agree!
I love the concept of wireless shifting but I still can't stand the look of the bulky SRAM hoods. I'm picking up a new Tarmac pro soon and had the choice of AXS force or Ultegra Di2 but after checking them both out in the flesh Di2 has won me over on looks and being a more mature system. Hopefully the next generation of AXS force will shrink those ugly hoods and eventually Shimano will go wireless. Until then, SRAM Eagle wins for my MTB, Shimano for my road and gravel bikes. Just my opinion. Love your vids!
Thanks for the support. I like the big hoods.
I don't like the aesthetics of the SRAM hoods but they work and feel just fine in operation (to me anyway). Shimano looks better and feels perfect.
Hey, I ve come upon a problem when considering some upgrades. I have full dura ace 9000 and I would like to have electronic shifting but that's expensive and da 9000 parts are not easily available ,so I ve came up with idea to upgrade just right shifter and rear derailleur to r9150. Excluding aesthetics ,does it make sense and would there be any complications? Or I should wait and make full upgrade at once ? Thanks in advance.
Well the biggest upgrade is front shifting, so it makes no sense. Plus even if you have just the rear mech, you need the full wiring anyway. Not many frames, if at all, will accommodate that + cables for FD.
@@ronykuba Alright, I ll make full upgrade then ,thanks for help.
no love for campy eps :-) :-)
Nope
In my racing I have to fit within the rollout. Di2 is really horrible with lockout (basically breaks after 3 months and needs a tune or reset). Do you think this would happen with sram as well or should I just go straight to mechanical?
I've never had to retune my own etap, but for some customers I have to do it regularly. I don't really know what does it depend on
Ronald Kuba ok thank you
I would like to use an upgrade etap kit with may shimano r8000 crankset on my trek madone 9 rim brake bike. From my research i found that i would not have any problem with shifting but i don't know about braking with the integrated trek brakes. Do you think that there will be an issue there ? Thanks
Well, I don't know how have you done your research but it's exactly the other way around. The brakes work with any levers, but the Sram 12spd chain is not compatible with those rings, and the Yaw FD is not compatible with the standard gear jumps
@@ronykuba Thanks for your reply Roland. I was not very clear in my question. I was referring to 11spd etap red, which is the previous generation.
What do you think about this whole teory about 'disc brakes = rubbing'? especialy when sprinting. Do you think that well adjusted calipers will eliminate this phenomenon?
It can happen, but there are more factors than caliper adjustment
Did you forget to remove the plastic at the center of your Sram crank?
What plastic?
@@ronykuba Hm... sorry. Maybe it is just the lighting :) It just looked like there is a piece of protective plastic(from when it was in a box) on the top and bottom on the drive side
Weight of di2 and etap?
Do the cranks allow oval/asymmetric chain rings?
Not as of now
Can I use a SRAM axs red 1by aero chainring with shimano cassette and di2 rear dueriller?
Yes
Ronald Kuba thanks, also if I unplug the front derailleur, will the rear ultegra di2 derailleur keep working?
@@FMeng yes
Enjoyed 🚲👍
Thanks!
"I'm not a SRAM fan I'm not sponsored by SRAM" but I'll put it front and center in my opening shot in a bike rack with the Di2 in the background on a beat bike.
I heard the Sram front derailleur is more problematic.
that´s just because most people don´t know how to set it up correctly
I dont Think this comparison is true at all. You can’t compare a rim brake version to a Disc version. You can make your Shimano shift the same way as SRAM . I love my SRAM AXS etap on my Epic, but prefer the faster shift from the DA on my Venge. Work in a big bike shop, so I have the possibility to test all the new high end gear all day.
If you listen carefully, I compare rim to rim and also disc to disc, because I have ridden all.
Thx 🙏
For shimano parts, before even doing a head to head comparison, you should pull out a radioactivity counter to test for radioactivity. I am serious.
So di2 can't go 1x?
It can. With aftermarket components.
Justin Miller to much nw chainrings for 1x
Try Di2 thumbs shift.
Try Di2 Sprint shift, not for the sake of sprinting. For the sake of drafting at high-speed on Drop position.
Try Etube Apps from Shimano.
Try do this Video comparison again.
I have, they're nicer than Blips. I have the full e-tube diagnosis tool, which is nice, but some of the features are not that useful.
Most people are not going to install their own Di2. And only one battery in Di2 to worry about. Cheaper also. Functionally mine is pretty much flawless. But I am sure Sram is great if it's set up right. I would not hesitate if someone else was paying for it.
That's not a very good point. Sram batteries are external. If there's a problem, you change it and you go, plus they are all the same. When a Shimano battery (or wire or junction) dies deep inside your bike, you're stuck. Plus there are 3-4 types of each, so replacement is not that straightforward.
@@ronykuba my battery is in the seat post. After two years (many thousands of km) it wasn't holding a charge as well. I bought a new one for 100 bucks. The LBS installed in about 15 min. Only one battery to charge maybe once a month. No possibility of a synch problem. Maybe a wire could fail. That would take the LBS a day or so to sort out. I doubt that happens very often. Has never happened on my two bikes.
Ha-ha-ha