Love watching your stuff. Learned so much about steels. Would be awesome if you met Jay from Pew Science and did a interview about Suppressors and there steels. You could discuss inconel, titanium, new suppressor alloys that are coming online, 3D printing (sintering) and a lot more. Your two of my favorite people to watch/listen to because you want to help people and do it in a objective scientific way. Great work keep it up.
I love these I hope you will do more! Would love to hear your thoughts on Vascowear. If I am not mistaken I think it is similar to Cru-Wear. I used one of Geber's folders in it for years of fairly heavy use in industrial plant maint. and never found anything better. Whoever did the heat treat for Gerber nailed it.
Definitely my favorite of the ultra high edge retention steels. I would say 15v is the only one with better feedback during sharpening, but i get a bit better edge retention from ASP60. Great steel; i hope to see a lot more of it. Edit: that T15 comparison shot is wild.
15v is too brittle to be useful outside of niche light use cases. It's basically a gimmick. For an actual knife that's actually going to get used a steel like 10v is clearly superior in essentially every way. I would think anyone with even basic ability to read a chart could see that even without first hand experience. Essentially you're trading away critical toughness, absolutely vital to being able to employ the kind of geometries that actually perform at a high level and continue to long after the secondary bevel is toast, to gain additional abrasion resistance which serves no almost no functional or practical purpose in real world use cases. It's silly to be honest. But knife bros seems to latch onto whatever is hyped as the next mega steel. If you want a knife that actually cuts well, and doesn't just rely on a keen edge, then you need thin geometry, to have thin geometry you need hardness+toughness. Abrasion resistance is the single most overrated and least important aspect of steel and knife bros are convinced it's the only thing that even matters. It's bizarre. All abrasion resistance gives you is extended edge keenness, which is only relevant to cut initiation aka what knife bros call "bite." basically how long do you have bite? A knife with good hardness+toughness can be made into geometry that will cut better and longer than most knife bros seem to be able to imagine without even having any edge on it at all. Cut initiation and cutting ability are not the same thing. A keen edge and a sharp knife aren't the same either.
@@TimJohnson-x1oPretty much agree. Though a little isn't a bad thing. Cru-wear or MagnaCut are in a decent spot at around 4% VC. But something like 14c28n run hard will have enough toughness to be pretty dang good but also some benefit from a chrome few carbides. MagnaCut is pretty much like a merger of the two, no chrome carbides but fine vanadium carbides, and nitrogen to keep chromium more in solution. Might be able to get away with 10v in a pocket knife but any bigger or if you're rougher on your knives like the average person working, you need higher toughness than 10v. For those times you cut through something and hit a staple in a tough cardboard box, or etc.
@@mikafoxx2717 Nobody sane would try to use 10v on a big knife. That's what 3v, cru wear, 4v are for. Maybe you could push it with something like m4 but it's not worth the risk. I'd be happy with just AEBL for a big knife. But for an EDC knife, 10v is more than tough enough and has next level "edge retention." It would be cool if these brands that use steel choices a gimmick would offer laminated blades. Imagine an EDC knife that was 10v laminated in 14c28n. That's money. 15v in the real world has a little more edge retention than 10v, but it loses most of it's toughness. It's not a tradeoff that makes sense unless all you're going to do is open packages all day.
@@TimJohnson-x1o my problem is that most generic knives often aren't hard enough to take full advantage of the carbides, because the matrix of the steel just mushrooms before the wear resistance can take full effect, unless you make the angle more obtuse and then it doesn't really cut any longer either.
I'm incapable of working with these steels as a bladesmith, but these videos are still very interesting to watch, thanks for all these videos and explanations Larrin!
@@KnifeSteelNerds how do highly complex steels forge tho? Especially in a charcoal forge, in a very traditional setting... From changes in carbon content (be it loss trough oxidation, or carburizing in the fire...), to high changes of temperature, and probably tiny hot working ranges. Also, i don't imagine traditional ways of heat treating, such as using the forge or a bed of hot charcoal (wich is surprisingly even and accurate compared to using a forge) would be fitting for such highly alloyed steels... I personally focused my work on exotic alloys and damascus, like with copper based alloys that will quench harden, or offer interesting/beautiful results.
70 is the highest HRC I’ve heard of… have you (or anyone) done any modeling of the theoretical maximum hardness for any “steel” composition? What is the highest HRC achieved in practice? Thanks, Dr. Thomas.
I can’t say I know the exact limit but somewhere around 72-73 Rc. The Rockwell C scale technically stops at 70 though the tester will still read higher.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsSo.. the steel is off the charts, one might say. They didn't call it Max for nothing.. I wish it was easier to remember the actual hardness difference between something like 55 HRC, 63, and 70 HRC by percentage, since it's not linear.
@@jes6628 ZDP189 has lower toughness but insane 10v class edge retention and it's extremely easy to sharpen and to polish without any special abrasives. I would suggest AEBL, XHP and ZDP in order of highest toughness and least edge retention to lowest toughness and highest edge retention. All of these are essentially chromium steels which do not contain vanadium or other carbides. All of them take an excellent polish as you'd expect from chromium steels. Any of these steels take excellent an mirror polish without much effort or nonstandard abrasive.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I've read that PM60 has even considerably more W and a little more Co and Mo than Vanadis 60. What does that change? If it does at all?
The rumored compositions are a bit murky, I agree. I wouldn’t worry about small composition differences, personally. They are still in the same “category” of steel.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks very much. And a huge Thank You for everything you do for our knife nerd community. Both of your books are absolutely amazing, more capturing than a thriller - well, for someone like me at least. 😉
Sandrin does have their knife. But you might have to send it back to them for sharpening unless you have water cooled diamond grinding wheels or a lot of patience.
I don't make knives nor will I; but I appreciate these videos and the effort put in by all involved
Love watching your stuff. Learned so much about steels. Would be awesome if you met Jay from Pew Science and did a interview about Suppressors and there steels. You could discuss inconel, titanium, new suppressor alloys that are coming online, 3D printing (sintering) and a lot more. Your two of my favorite people to watch/listen to because you want to help people and do it in a objective scientific way. Great work keep it up.
I love these I hope you will do more! Would love to hear your thoughts on Vascowear. If I am not mistaken I think it is similar to Cru-Wear. I used one of Geber's folders in it for years of fairly heavy use in industrial plant maint. and never found anything better. Whoever did the heat treat for Gerber nailed it.
Thanks Larrin and Malachi!
Definitely my favorite of the ultra high edge retention steels.
I would say 15v is the only one with better feedback during sharpening, but i get a bit better edge retention from ASP60. Great steel; i hope to see a lot more of it.
Edit: that T15 comparison shot is wild.
Are you talking about 15v with the big brown bear heat treatment protocol? Do you know how his protocol differs from standard protocols?
15v is too brittle to be useful outside of niche light use cases. It's basically a gimmick. For an actual knife that's actually going to get used a steel like 10v is clearly superior in essentially every way. I would think anyone with even basic ability to read a chart could see that even without first hand experience. Essentially you're trading away critical toughness, absolutely vital to being able to employ the kind of geometries that actually perform at a high level and continue to long after the secondary bevel is toast, to gain additional abrasion resistance which serves no almost no functional or practical purpose in real world use cases. It's silly to be honest. But knife bros seems to latch onto whatever is hyped as the next mega steel. If you want a knife that actually cuts well, and doesn't just rely on a keen edge, then you need thin geometry, to have thin geometry you need hardness+toughness. Abrasion resistance is the single most overrated and least important aspect of steel and knife bros are convinced it's the only thing that even matters. It's bizarre. All abrasion resistance gives you is extended edge keenness, which is only relevant to cut initiation aka what knife bros call "bite." basically how long do you have bite? A knife with good hardness+toughness can be made into geometry that will cut better and longer than most knife bros seem to be able to imagine without even having any edge on it at all. Cut initiation and cutting ability are not the same thing. A keen edge and a sharp knife aren't the same either.
@@TimJohnson-x1oPretty much agree. Though a little isn't a bad thing. Cru-wear or MagnaCut are in a decent spot at around 4% VC. But something like 14c28n run hard will have enough toughness to be pretty dang good but also some benefit from a chrome few carbides. MagnaCut is pretty much like a merger of the two, no chrome carbides but fine vanadium carbides, and nitrogen to keep chromium more in solution. Might be able to get away with 10v in a pocket knife but any bigger or if you're rougher on your knives like the average person working, you need higher toughness than 10v. For those times you cut through something and hit a staple in a tough cardboard box, or etc.
@@mikafoxx2717 Nobody sane would try to use 10v on a big knife. That's what 3v, cru wear, 4v are for. Maybe you could push it with something like m4 but it's not worth the risk. I'd be happy with just AEBL for a big knife. But for an EDC knife, 10v is more than tough enough and has next level "edge retention." It would be cool if these brands that use steel choices a gimmick would offer laminated blades. Imagine an EDC knife that was 10v laminated in 14c28n. That's money. 15v in the real world has a little more edge retention than 10v, but it loses most of it's toughness. It's not a tradeoff that makes sense unless all you're going to do is open packages all day.
@@TimJohnson-x1o my problem is that most generic knives often aren't hard enough to take full advantage of the carbides, because the matrix of the steel just mushrooms before the wear resistance can take full effect, unless you make the angle more obtuse and then it doesn't really cut any longer either.
Very interesting info and explanations as always, thanks a lot!
Really interesting!
I own a coustom knife in Vanadis 23, the steel has a really good edge retention.
Lovely
I'm incapable of working with these steels as a bladesmith, but these videos are still very interesting to watch, thanks for all these videos and explanations Larrin!
I bet you could work with them if you wanted. It would just be more work
@@KnifeSteelNerds how do highly complex steels forge tho? Especially in a charcoal forge, in a very traditional setting... From changes in carbon content (be it loss trough oxidation, or carburizing in the fire...), to high changes of temperature, and probably tiny hot working ranges. Also, i don't imagine traditional ways of heat treating, such as using the forge or a bed of hot charcoal (wich is surprisingly even and accurate compared to using a forge) would be fitting for such highly alloyed steels... I personally focused my work on exotic alloys and damascus, like with copper based alloys that will quench harden, or offer interesting/beautiful results.
I think high performance steels are more for stock removal and not forging
Using a furnace for heat treating definitely makes it much more viable
The goods as usual. Does VG-10 have any hot hardness qualities at all with its addition of Cobalt even though it lacks Tungsten?
It does a little bit
Does this cover collapsible batons as well?
Oo yeah
70 is the highest HRC I’ve heard of… have you (or anyone) done any modeling of the theoretical maximum hardness for any “steel” composition? What is the highest HRC achieved in practice?
Thanks, Dr. Thomas.
I can’t say I know the exact limit but somewhere around 72-73 Rc. The Rockwell C scale technically stops at 70 though the tester will still read higher.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsSo.. the steel is off the charts, one might say. They didn't call it Max for nothing..
I wish it was easier to remember the actual hardness difference between something like 55 HRC, 63, and 70 HRC by percentage, since it's not linear.
If I wanted a knife that had a very high polish, a mirror polish. What and it’s a pocket knife what steel would you recommend?
Something without significant amounts of vanadium like AEB-L or CPM-154.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you 🫶
The more wear resistant, the more it resists scratches… obviously, but that means the grind of polishing a harder knife pays off a bit more.
@@jes6628 ZDP189 has lower toughness but insane 10v class edge retention and it's extremely easy to sharpen and to polish without any special abrasives. I would suggest AEBL, XHP and ZDP in order of highest toughness and least edge retention to lowest toughness and highest edge retention. All of these are essentially chromium steels which do not contain vanadium or other carbides. All of them take an excellent polish as you'd expect from chromium steels. Any of these steels take excellent an mirror polish without much effort or nonstandard abrasive.
PM60 is the version by Scana, right?
Yes
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks. Got that steel in my Kunwu. Love it.
@@KnifeSteelNerds I've read that PM60 has even considerably more W and a little more Co and Mo than Vanadis 60. What does that change? If it does at all?
The rumored compositions are a bit murky, I agree. I wouldn’t worry about small composition differences, personally. They are still in the same “category” of steel.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Thanks very much. And a huge Thank You for everything you do for our knife nerd community. Both of your books are absolutely amazing, more capturing than a thriller - well, for someone like me at least. 😉
Can't wait for 100% pure Vanadium Carbide knives, it'll be so epic and easy to sharpen :)
Sandrin does have their knife. But you might have to send it back to them for sharpening unless you have water cooled diamond grinding wheels or a lot of patience.