idk Finn , I mean I like bands like Clutch, Deftones, Mastadon, TOOL, Mr.Bungle, Trivium, Disturbed, Rise Against and several others like that and people seem to give them hate.
My hometown in Minnesota was a little hub for punk music scene in the early nineties. Green Day used to play the area quite a bit before Dookie came out. We had a local independent record store tied to this scene. A good friend of mine wanted to buy the Dookie album but since he was part of the scene he didn't want to be seen buying their album since they were now popular. Since I wasn't part of the scene, he gave me the money to go into the store and buy the album for him. Looking back it was so ridiculous.
I luv this video and your opinion and i will be the first person to say it i wanna be a billionaire one day i know that money doesn't buy you happiness but helps a lot of people family and your " real friends" i understand from some people can't understand because they are use to be miserable and unhappy life but they can't blame you for wanting more fore you and the people who are important for you . This is my opinion ♥️
As annoying as it is when people in rap glorify material wealth and superficial success above all else, it’s just as harmful when underground bands jump to the opposite extreme
@@meowtherainbowx4163 you clearly don't know nothing about rap music besides the mainstream because on the flip side there are plenty of people that will call the rapper a sell out or say they ain't "real hip hop" because they're popular
@@misfittv313 Oh, I’m not surprised. I’m aware that people with that mentality exist in rap, too. However, a lot of rock and metal sub genres, especially anything punk or extreme metal, lack a mainstream equivalent. There are very few, if any, people who are into grindcore for the money because it’s just not there. Rap is a big enough umbrella to contain tons of styles with the potential to be commercially successful, and tons of pop music today consists of rap and pop/rap crossovers.
This was really funny and true. I'm a metalhead and when I was younger I thought that way. Now that I'm 31 I just don't. It was like immature prideful thinking. I called Metallica sellouts for example. If a person actually takes the time to listen to interviews of them or watch, whatever... They were just being genuine to themselves and trying to make the best music they could and they wrote what sounded good to THEM. Do I think "St. Anger" is a shit album? Yes. But at least they were being their genuine selves. It wasn't selling out. The "Black Album" wasn't selling out. Cutting their hair wasn't selling out. They were already successful. I appreciate that they experimented even if I didn't like it. We as "metalheads" need to start having a little empathy and sympathy and maybe question why the band isn't what you expected anymore? Do you want them to sound the same forever? Every album sounding the same? If a band chooses artistically chooses to change their sound and becomes successful, why hate? If you don't like it fine but there are soo many other people that do. It doesn't mean they sold out. It doesn't mean they don't have integrity. Sometimes your favorite band might decide to do an Opeth lol. I don't personally enjoy them anymore the same as far as new albums after "Warershed." But again they never sold out. Why do people assume what band's intentions are? You're not them. You have no fucking clue why they did this or that. Most of them are just writing what they want to write. It's childish to assume what a stranger does. It's actually pretty fucking stupid. Elitism is a problem in Rock music. Here end. Just like what you like and don't worry about what other people think and don't judge people you don't know. Stop thinking you know everything. No one knows EVERYTHING YOU C-WORD! RANT FINISHED. IF ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY READ THIS ALL.. YOURE A BOSS.
@@sumdude116 THANK YOU. I'm so glad someone finally took the time to say this. It's so frustrating for me as a metalhead always hearing other metalheads complaining about "selling out" or being so hard on people for liking music that isn't as heavy. There is nothing wrong with changing your sound sometimes, as long as you still stay true to yourselves and what your music is. I can forgive a band "selling out" or changing their sound a bit, if the music is still recognizable or is still really good even if it is different. More people need to hear this. Just because a band has a large quantity of fans, is successful, or starts writing ballads along with their heavy songs, doesn't mean they suck or that they're selling out. They're just trying something different. And that's okay.
Took the words out of my mouth. Most people in the world are poor, so it's no surprise that the entrepreneurial spirit of hip hop resonates with their hopes and dreams more than some crusty boomer lamenting on the pitfalls of materialism.
@@greasybumpkin1661 well, when you think about it, the boomers are the ones who invented the rock culture: in the 60's-70s, rock music was in it's full growth because there was no big record label telling artists about how to make their music, the result: much artists of this era is still remembered today, think of the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, King Crimson, etc. Any of these bands will have a career because their music won't be enough commercial in terms of mass broadcasting and by this way are not bringing money to their labels. So again, it's more about the greed of the music business than the musician's desire to be commercial, it's just the way the music business works. The solution is that music business shouldn't be ruled by big media conglomerates but by compagnies who wanted to take chances both musically and financially.
@@oliviertruchon5648 well yeah, I'm aware that rock was invented by a generation who was young in the 60/70s, and I'm aware there's greed in the music industry. But what's that got to do with my point? Whatever went down during that era, does not resonate with the youth of today. You could buy a house with a factory job back then, higher ed was free, pensions were good, you had the luxury of turning down commercial creative work because it was easier to make a living by other means. That's not the case now, if it was then rock would still be king.
@@greasybumpkin1661 first, that music and entrepreneurship are more or less in harmony and second i don't like the fact that you're bashing the boomers.
@@oliviertruchon5648 alright then, I'll modify that, seen plenty of GenX and Millennails spout the same bullshit and spout it more fervently. Is that better? And yeah I agree art and entrepreneurship are linked, it's typically usually fans of such things saying that they aren't
Some believe in love, and some believe in friends But n****s like me believe in making ends 'Cause even when your bitch wants to trick around, You know the money's got you safe and sound Some believe in Jesus Some believe in Allah But n****s like me believe in making dollars 'Cause even when yo n****s wanna be untrue, You know the money's still good to you. -DJ Quik
Money only offers temporary solutions. sure you can afford a security system, but your gucci jacket might attract the wrong attention when your out at night.
@@benjaminwatt2436 With how prevalent fakes/replicas are and how many poors flex clothing (gen or rep) emblazoned with _ ,_ a Gucci jacket doesn’t mean anything. More so means that person _used to have_ a little bit of money but they spent it on an ostentatious jacket. Real killers/N’s/old money moves in silence.
It’s the same in the Etsy and small maker world online. My wife owns her own company. Built it from scratch. Designs,makes and sells her own products. Hand makes every single item as they are ordered. She is so conscious about not accidentally showing the nice purses she bought herself because then it wouldn’t make her look like a small creator anymore. The fear that people might see it and think she’s “too big” and support someone else. She doesn’t say that she payed off her student loans in the fist few months meanwhile no one in the industry her degree is in was hiring.
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA yeah it keeps the honest, hardworking people who find success quiet. Leaving the “buy my plan” “invest in my NFT series” scammers the only avenue for people looking to get out of poverty, make extra cash.
When I was young, I complained about bands selling out. Then I realized "well, I've never turned down a raise, why should I give a shit about them doing the same thing?" People should get paid for their work.
Exactly! I think it was the black keys that got attacked online years ago for taking a million bucks to have their big hit at the time played in a Kia commercial and people said they sold out. Sorry but if I wrote a hit song and someone offered me a million dollars to use the song in a commercial I would say yes in less than a heartbeat. Literally any human being would do the same
I don’t mind if a band changes their sound to reach a wider audience, but that doesn’t mean the fans are obligated to like the new sound or the new direction.
@@elosoguapo8137 fair enough. I think that’s something the band has to take into consideration too. Knowing by changing the sound they’ll inevitably lose fans in the process
Definitely not that simple. You would be right if those bands were actually saying "accept the reality as it is and go out there and make yourself useful in this world", but no, they do the exact opposite. Or at least the bands that are usually considered "sell-outs".
For the hardcore I really think it comes with the anarchist/anti capitalist mentality that was in the origins of punk/hardcore. Yet, while time passes, the ideology of it is lost, so you only hate money because you hate it, that becomes far more toxic since you forget that money is hated because people have certain beliefs. The scene eventually forgot that not everyone was anarchist and so, not everyone hated money and thought of it as essentially evil
As much as people can get lost in the sauce with their ideology, it’s at least good to have a good idea of what you’re fighting for and how your values are reflected by your words and actions. Seeing people get out of poverty should be a good thing. Part of the point is that the capitalist system keeps people poor and unequal. If someone manages to make a living not by exploiting others but just being a good musician and getting people to give them money for their art, what’s the harm? Even if they get signed to a greedy major label, if the label is ultimately just facilitating the discovery of the artist and taking a large cut, the artist themselves are not exploiting anyone. It’s this zero-sum game mentality that people have. They think someone else’s success is built from their failure, which simply is not true, at least not by default.
@@meowtherainbowx4163 most capitalist nation have the lowest homeless rates and lowest poor percentages. Also communistic nations like, Russia, China, Venezuela, etc, have notoriously high poverty brackets. anyone who thinks capitalism and free market is not working is ignoring the world we live in.
@@benjaminwatt2436 _”Losers hate winners”_ is embodied by hating on capitalism. Capitalism is great. What they truly do not like is federal government overreaching and central banks inflating currency and sapping value out of their pockets.
Lagwagon said it best back in '94 on Know It All The bands are good 'til they make enough cash to eat food and get a pad Then they're sold out and their music is cliché Because talent's exclusive to bands without pay
People love to hate the end result of success. It's tied to a "that person has this or that" or "they're just lucky" and negate the sacrifice to of what the individual gave up. No what the end result of what you want to achieve, people have to sacrifice things in their life to get it. You can say that person had this resource or was lucky, but that's to justify your own inaction in giving all you have. Maybe it's time to think of why you didn't achieve something because in reality, you really didn't have the same drive to pursue it. I sure as hell have fallen for that before. But the achievements I got because deep down I knew it was something I couldn't live without, I walk out of the weeks/months/years of smiling battered and bruised, but so happy of how I learned and developed. It has taken me decades to break the mentality of "it's ok to be successful" - I've hidden my military medals in boxes, Ironman medals in bags, kept silent of any achievement; but then instead of being someone who name drops or prides my value off someone else's success, I decided to learn about myself and accept every part of me from the lowest points in the journey to highest achievements. Stop learning about someone else and using their success to fill a false pride, learn about you and never be ashamed of what you consider to be the success in your life. Hopefully that makes sense!
Insecurities and jealousy is nuts man we all feel it and have those types of things but to project them on someone who has become successful and hold it against them is weak no question. Always gonna support you though Finn I’ve enjoyed seeing your channel become successful and welcome your opinions and tips👍🏻.
The issue with selling out isn't about being successful as much as it is about changing your sound to make it more mainstream and alienating your core audience. Metal elitists still love Maiden, Sabbath, Priest, etc and they've all sold millions of albums and headlined huge venues.
I was (never really, but always identified as) a part of the underground/punk scene in Puerto Rico’s west coast during the early 2000’s… and what drew me into that scene, was the attitudes and values I saw as counter culture and anti-establishment. I thought it was rebellious or whatever. Later as I studied social sciences in college, I came to realized that the whole punk ethos was/is anchored in actual social theory and philosophy. Theory and philosophy that are critical of mainstream socioeconomic/political/culture. Even though punk kids and most people won’t know how to articulate those theoretical concepts, and end up reducing them to money = bad or rich guy = evil… it fundamentally boils down to a critique of the ethics of exploitation. Because to “make money” in a capitalist system implies; to exploit labor out of, most of the profits they generate. Usually the bands or artists are the workers being exploited by labels etc… but when a band “makes it” or is perceived as “selling out” it’s because they are seen as; in the least going along with the exploitation of others now that it benefits them or at worst they seem to be directly/blatantly participating in said exploitation. No one is really checking to see if a band is paying fair wages to their roadies or whatever, their status as “rockstars” (used as pejorative back in my scene) was enough to assume the likelihood of them being a**holes… It is a shallow critique for sure and I myself am guilty of making it sometimes, but now I see that; generally things are more complex, and deserve a much more nuanced understanding. But even if it is quite reductionist, I still feel it originates from a valid materialist critique of everyday life.
I always found the sellout argument dumb because The Ramones and The Clash were two of the biggest and most beloved punk bands of all time. I was in 7th or 8th grade when Blink’s “Enema of the State” came out and that’s what got me into punk. It was great seeing the genre grow in success over the next few years and all the great bands and music we got. Blink was my gateway to a larger world. They exposed me to NOFX, Bad Religion, and The Vandals which in turn exposed me to the record labels Fat Wreck, Epitaph, and Kung Fu which exposed me to even more bands and got me looking at other record labels and their artists. When one band in a genre becomes successful, the whole genre becomes successful, and more bands become successful. A rising tide lifts all ships. Of it wasn’t for Blink, almost none of the bands in my CD collection would be there. That single band was the biggest influence on my entire life outside of my parents.
Agree 100% about The Ramones and The Clash. They are generally punk rock royalty but their songs had hooks and were pop radio friendly. Even The Sex Pistols were largely curated by Malcolm McClaren to be sold as rebellion.
I always defined selling out as compromising on the music you actually like to make music you do not because it is the in thing. There are a lot of bands/groups/artists that I feel may have sold out but unless they say it or people who know them confirm it then i can never know for sure
Its a strange one. If you takes the Offspring example, they were still on Epitaph when 'Smash' exceeded expectations. That album did really well, far as I recall its still the most 'successful' independent album of all time. Which goes to show that maybe, its simply more about exposure more than anything. If a wider range of audience hears your music, you'll get more attention and inevitably more fandom. Now obviously Nirvana were on a big label by the time Nevermind dropped however, at the time it was fresh and obviously Nirvana channelled their 'punk' leanings and origins. revolutionary
Good topic to discuss! The main reason I'm subscribed to you is to learn from you about music business, marketing, and such things, so I for one would actually love to hear you share more about your financial successes and what you've learned!
I had some similar comments on one of your videos about hair metal bands. But essentially, metal has generally been in opposition to some form of "mainstream" pop music. Boy bands, etc. So the rejection by fans of "successful" metal bands has nothing to do with money or success. It's about the bands changing their sound from something hard-core and rebellious, to something more "radio friendly". The hair band thing is a perfect example. That stuff started out as metal. As something very rebellious. But those bands became pop-metal. Anyhow, I don't think anyone cares if a band like Slayer can be financially successful, as long as they don't change their sound too drastically. Bands like Green Day, were pop-punk from the outset. So if the general public likes the pop/punk blend, that's great. Good for them. But they and their fans shouldn't expect hard-core punk fans to accept them as one of them. It's a different type of music.
This attitude is everywhere and it makes me so sad. I started a new job in an area I just moved to and in trying to connect with my coworkers, I'm truthful about the typical "what brought you here, where are you from, etc." questions. With a few coworkers I'm feeling a completely different energy towards me now that they know we came here because my SO is highly educated and working in a niche high paying industry. Like they assume we both just fell into money and success and didn't have years of financial anxiety before (and still do bc of HCoL and no family to fall on here if things go south) and stress getting here. I'm so proud of SO (and myself!) for getting to where we are now and continuing on our future path to more success. Just really hits home how important having the right people in your corner and letting go of limiting beliefs is.
There were so many facts here. Bottom line, there are losers and winners, and misery loves company. Your friends are those who build you up, keep pushing you towards interests, and are there to help.
It's a youth thing, it's that simple. When I was a kid at 16 and listened to Hardcore and Punk, I was against all big bands, pro straightedge, vegan. It's not until you grow up, move out and realise money does indeed make the World go round and it has to be made. I think Madball wrote a great song about this subject D.I.F.M.M.
I often assume that it’s not just the money itself but it’s the (often irrational) fear that the moment their favorite artist has money and success they will do evil things with it. They see all the atrocities of the world committed by people who not only have a lot of money but a lot of clout and influence so if their favorite artist becomes wealthy and successful they will use that wealth and success for the purpose of evil. At least that’s how I see it.
I think it's the constant comparison of ourselves to others that brings people to these type of feelings. They want a small band who rebels to show their angst and they think once the band gets to be "better than them" that they aren't the same anymore. People change people grow and if you don't you end being a hater on those who do.
all of the guys complaining about being "sellouts" probably dont shower, have bo and just go to local shows all day every day, sitting in their moms basement complaining
Yet didn't know how hard it was for the band to be working lots of overtime in dead end jobs, struggling to pay bills in their 20s. Yeah when you're living with your parents and have never lived on your own and paid for what you have, it's hard to comprehend why your favorite band "sold out".
Great stuff Finn. I stopped listening to bands like Foo Fighters and Linkin Park as a teenager because they were "famous" (meanwhile I was buying Alice in Chains and Beatles shirts so my sense of elitism was super misguided). As I got older I realized "what the fuck am I doing? I'm missing out on so much good music". Now I have completely changed. One of my favorite bands of all time Fleet Foxes just did a song with Post Malone and it made me so happy. Fleet Foxes are plenty big, but it just made me so happy, Post Malone is great. 10 years ago i would have been mad. It's really twisted.
Interesting topic and one I have been thinking about a lot lately in different respects. I grew up in a very blue collar town in KS going to punk/hardcore/DIY shows. I think for a lot of people it created a community where the rules of the outside world (monetary/capitalistic success) were not a metric for status or one's worth... which is and was beautiful. However, eventually we all grow up. Eventually some of us became successful due to education, family socio-economic status, and our own personal choices. It was also the case that others did not become successful that they slipped into a spiral of stagnation, making short sighted decisions, and generally just not having any kind of vision for their life aside from numbing the present. It's really difficult for me to run into those people from my past that either got a bad hand in life, made bad decisions, or just never believed in themselves... because they are resentful of me and any of our other friends who took the lesson of punk as something to empower ourselves rather than justify our sense of nihilism and hopelessness. For me, punk was always about finding your power and making something happen. I could go on about this forever, but if there's one thing I have learned its that the more you start encountering negative energy from your friends or bystanders, the more you can be sure you are going the right way.
A band I was in the late '90s split just because I wanted to pop it up a little bit and become popular as the "riff" writer. They wanted to go heavier. We were already heavy.
That reporter was the same reporter that was being sneaky and trying to ask Robert Downey Jr about his drug history. He definitely has a punchable face at this point.
I don’t think it’s only hating rich people like you said. A lot of artists lose their passion/anger/hunger and desire to innovate/taking risks once they achieve a certain status and just sort of ride the wave and go softer/lose their essence, seemingly focusing on banking and end up creating inferior material as time goes by.
It's one of the reasons why we like Bakuman so much, right? The mindset that's displayed in that show is the opposite of crab mentality. Each manga artist is certainly a bit jealous when one of their competitors is more successful than them, but much more so they're happy for them AND inspired to catch up and draw even
This happens in pro wrestling all the time. People love underdog stories and the chase, but grow bored or resentful of champions even thought they were cheering them weeks before.
You should check out Dan Ozzi's book; Sellout: The Major-Label Feeding Frenzy That Swept Punk, Emo, and Hardcore (1994-2007) Covers the stories of Green Day, Jawbreaker, Jimmy Eat World, Blink-182, At the Drive-In, The Donnas, Thursday The Distillers, My Chemical Romance, Rise Against, Against Me! Such a good read, and really fascinating to hear from those bands about what was happening behind the scenes, and why they made their decisions
So many music fans are obnoxiously pushing their favorite bands on their friends and hope they check them out and like them just the same as they do, and then get upset at the band if they get bigger... Like wtf?
I remember hearing Green Day talk about a club they used to play at back in the day. Billy Joe said this place was like home to them. He talked about going back to visit and going to the bathroom and somebody had spray painted death to Billy Joe on the wall. A lot of the times when people say a band is selling out a lot of times it's to try to boost their own credibility in the scene.
Finn thanks for this video and pointing out these things. I knew a lot of punks and saw these issues myself. I saw a lot of them adopted these ideas when they were kids in the suburbs. Then they grow up and they are in the real world where idealism gets tested. Especially when they move to difficult urban areas where there is a lot of crime and poverty and they are trying to hold on to these ideals. They are not in the suburbs anymore with a house that is paid for, an old car from their parents. To add more pressure the punk scene has a DIY mentality which runs up against the reality of being an adult trying to make ends meet in a big city. Many were self conscious about career choices and being part of the system. They take jobs that maybe they feel don't compromise their ideals but can be low paying. Some I met were bitter about this that their jobs didn't pay more and allow them to live better. Blamed the system that rewards businessmen or other professions. Then again they are punks so shouldn't care that they are barely making ends meet. But that other punk guy has some vaguely artistic job and is making bank. Oh but doesn't he have a trust fund? Yes the trust fund witch hunt. Sorry I'm rambling am in a rush but you get it!
Gatekeeping in music fandom is the main issue with "selling out." Metallica has been accused of selling out on every album they've done after Kill Em All. At some point, being popular is just a symptom of a band doing something in the right place at the right time in front of the right people. Not that they've positioned themselves to do the most radio safe thing ever made. Just because you were a fan when some band played in front of ten people, does not mean that they suck in front of ten thousand. The artists who hold themselves to a grassroots work ethic or scene clearly have a sanctimonious opinion of bands who became popular. But that doesn't mean that the band who plays at the same dive bar every other Thursday is better than the band who plays 1500 capacity venues 4 days a week. Being known isn't any better than being unknown. It just means that one of them might actually make a living out of it.
I’m 33. So, I didn’t experience Nirvana, Green Day etc. until they were already huge. I did witness bands like Against Me!, AFI, Anti-Flag and Rise Against get panned as sellouts. However, the only people I ever saw making those complaints were people who were OBVIOUSLY incredibly privileged. The complaint of “sellout” is an argument that is ridiculous in the first place. We all live in a capitalistic society. Even if you’re band is on an indie label, those indie labels have the same distribution company as major labels most of the time.
i’d tune in to the financial clinic when finn decides to drop that video. being 28, impoverished, and rapidly pursing a slow-burn degree, i’m wayyyyy too down to hear a way out of the work cycle. teach us your ways, million dollar finn
And this is why I enjoy the second channel content more nowadays. The scene is so toxic with these kinds of attitudes that I can barely participate in it at all anymore.
I personally would love to be able to get some business advice from you. It would be cool if maybe there was something you could offer like that alongside your music reviews for Patreon but of course I wouldn't know enough about how that works to be able to say whether that was feasible or not, but I mostly started watching your channel for your videos on business. As someone who had a pretty broken upbringing, it's very uplifting and jnspiring to hear when you talk about how you had a hard life but did what you could to get to where you are. I especially like your interview with Joey Sturgis.
So many great takes in your video. 💖 Now on the success in music. As long as an artist does what she/he likes to do, should it be underground or mainstream, I don't care. What I despise is "self proclaimed artists" who do something they don't really care of, just for success. Also when a musical artist switching from a music style she/he seeming loved to do, just to go the "commercial" road, I have more issue with that. An example would have been : I loved No Doubt, and I loved their music. Now Gwen went her way, and I respect that. I'm not happy that No Doubt didn't have more years and albums, and yet at least Gwen wanted to obviously do something else. I'm fine with that. What I would have despised though, would have been No Doubt doing "Gwen Stefani". Again I respect her decision, I loved her voice & charisma and yet I never was into what she did, so I stopped to listen to her. But she had the right to do what she wanted. Most of the haters forget that they live in a country with freedom enabled.
I agree with your points in this video. I have been judged numerous times and people aren’t unaware or are intentionally disregarding towards the hard work I put in to get to where I am now in terms of having a decent job and a home
A couple of thoughts. One being beholden to label expectations, writing certain songs, formulaic appearances. Having to reconcile their wants vs bands wants. As bands or artists become more popular, they end up having more time dictated to the business and far less time for where they came from.
My lord this reminds me of how many times I've had to have this talk with people not even in the scene dealing with the dilemma of succeeding. Even in the hood or trailer parks or whatever low income there is, if you better yourself and start building a better future, people want to tear you down to their level. Misery loves company. So many times I had to explain that to people that you just might have to separate yourself from people you knew because they don't want you to be better. They don't want that smack in the face from reality that says "Look at you. You're not motivated. You're not working hard enough. Whatever grim thing people tell themselves. People get comfortable in their hole. Tony Robbins tells you to surround yourself with successful people and you will be that. 3 cheers to Tony Robbins Core. Get back on your bike and ride off into the sunset with the blonde and the billions.
The "punk ethos" is fine when we are 15, too scrawny for sports, not smart enough for school, or have undiagnosed ADHD, and are trapped in the microcosm of our small bubbles. However, there is a huge world out their and eventually, we all find our tribes. Or, whem Slayer played Raining Blood on Jimmy Fallon, they didnt go mainstream. Mainstream went FUCKIN' SLAYER!
There's nothing you can do when rent and groceries are more than the average pay rate, most ppl work their butts off and get nothing out of it and watch a new hire get a job you are going for, even tho you've been with the company for a decade, the list of BS is endless and has lead to most ppl saying yea I've had enough of this grift, go clean your own floors, make your own food I'm done... some of us are lucky enough to land a good job or have a successful business but at this point those ppl are outliers, the majority of ppl are trapped and complete victims of a corrupt system rigged against them from the day they're born... Telling ppl that it's their mindset that got them to where they are only serves to excuse this rigged system of oligarchs and just makes ppl going through hard times even tougher cause now you're telling them "it's your fault"... A really ridiculous thing to assume about ppl you know nothing about... Also you can't feed yourself or your family with positive thinking, you can't mindset your way out of starvation.... If you really want to help ppl and want them to be happy then you wouldn't be excusing and defending this modern day system which is literally no different than slavery.... Most ppl work because if they don't they'll starve or be homeless, that is not a workforce it's coerced labor and servitude, which is slavery...
Thank you for talking about this, Finn. One thing I don't get is why someone would be mad that more people know about their favorite bands. I love it when I find out someone knows a smaller band that I love. It's fun to share that experience with other people, just like a really popular tv show or movie. Has never made any sense to me.
In DC we all loved to praise the DIY ethics of Fugazi and Dischord and whatnot. And the old school thrash metal fans had their tantrums with Black Album. But those attitudes just seem a bit silly to me now. Hell, if I was a successful musician I'd probably try to open up a couple restaurants if I could.
Alot of ppl mistake "socialisms" and things like "tax the super rich" as "I don't want ppl to have what I don't". It's really about I don't want anyone to fall so low they have nothing (safety net). And most don't hate companies, they hate how they pay an unlivable wage. That's why me and most ppl atleast I know think capitalism is broken in its current state. I like money, I like being successful. But when a company gets super wealthy and pays ceo's millions, and the workers can't even afford health care or basic human needs.... well we have a problem. All I'm saying is, most ppl (not Twitter keyboard warriors) what successes and celebrate success, but are stuck in a system that makes it very hard to achieve some for yourself, but achieves its own off your hard work. Feel me?
Always think of the bigwig song sellout. BUT what is selling out? Do you know what the bands about? Putting food on the table More power if your able You can be dumb or you can be smart The defination of a rockstar Is when the music is in your wallet and no longer in your heart
When I was a stupid teenager I was so fast to cry about bands selling out. Now that I'm a bitter adult I hope bands get that chance. What a blessing it is to do what you love and get out of the shitty grind of working for other people. I'd give anything to go back and take music seriously for that chance. I'm writing this at work. I'm lucky enough to have a job I like, but I'm still fairly poor. Every ache and pain, every new sound my car makes, it all causes massive, unyielding anxiety because I have no way to remedy these things with the job I have, and if those things get bad enough I'll lose that job. Nobody knows who I am, I'm not inspiring depressed teenagers to keep on living with my work, I'm just a regular dude, and that's fine. There are much worse things to be. To shit on somebody for rising above regular dude status by doing what they love is mad little dick energy. Chase your dreams, kids. Practice your talent, get good, market it, succeed. And if you don't, at least you tried. Most of us don't even do that.
I like your old old videos on TPRMBA where you talked a lot about these and gave straight to the point advices on how to grow and be better at bussiness and marketing and social media, etc. I personally took a lot of your advices for my social media profiles and have achived some things, currently 200k on tiktok 💖
Finn you should do a video on Yusaku Maezawa, Japanese billionaire and first civilian to fly on the ISS. He was the drummer for Switch Style and got rich trading, importing, and selling Hardcore CDs from America to Japan. The guy is most definitely the richest hardcore kid to ever exist and became wealthy from the scene itself.
This was a great video Finn (I mean, I genuinely love all of your content lol). I think that you wanting to help others is freaking awesome! The real ones respect your grind and dedication to do what you do. You're absolutely an influence on me going the route of doing what I dream to do. Appreciate you man.
"commercialism and money in music are good" says the guy shilling hair loss products that probably don't work. Generally speaking, it's not commercial success that people resent. It's usually when artists change their style to appeal to a certain audience or mainstream radio that people get upset. Here's a few hugely popular bands that I've never heard anyone call a sellout: the sex pistols (who were a manufactured BS act anyway), the Ramones, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, slayer, minor threat, biohazard....it goes on and on. People call Metallica sellouts, not because they sold albums, but because they did so by abandoning metal and artificially turning themselves into an alternative band which was trendy at the time. It's fakeness that people hate.
A lot of good point being made here. Yes, capitalism is terrible (it doesn't actually 'trickle down' like economists like to believe it would and I think we all agree that living in a world where Bezos has to have a yacht to get to his bigger yacht while his employees are pissing in bottles because they work an inhuman schedule in order to generate his wealth is batshit crazy and needs to change) but you also need money to live. Both things are true. No, money can't buy happiness but money can buy freedom and, more importantly, security. America in particular LOVES punishing people for not having enough money, from evictions to overdraft fees. As someone who also grew up in the 90's punk scene, looking back, it's comical how anti-working class it was and how it actually propped up the status quo!? If you're an artist, you're expected to suffer for your art. Anything that doesn't produce a tangible, material good is considered "not real work." So the platonic ideal for a band is: constant touring, sleeping in the van, eating cheese sandwiches, having no health insurance, playing for gas money only and being expected to love it. AND, if your band finds commercial success in spite of all that - you should feel guilty for it. You shouldn't want any material comforts because you're a "real artist" who is somehow able to survive on principles alone?! This was fed to us HARD in the 90's and it didn't help that band's moves were being heavily monitored by kids like myself who never had to worry about where their next meal was coming from. I think things have settled down nowadays in that regard but it's a shame that the labels who could provide bands some financial security while they worked on their art back in the day are basically non existent now? EVERYONE has to DIY whether they like it or not - and that kind of sucks?
The scene appreciates artists that are young and hungry because they have more ambition than the established bands most of the time. When artists tend to get success, they start being lazy, catering, and focus on money rather than being the best at their craft. Its like when Honda wanted to impress Americans they made the best products ever for cheap. Now they are just like every other manufacturer after achieving money upon achieving their desired success
I'm not a big foo fighters fan, but everytime they play here in new Zealand they get a smaller local pink band to open for em who only ever really get to play bar shows!
This may be the most aligned I've been with you on one of your videos. I grew up poor with 8 siblings and my dad working mill.amd warehouse jobs. When I started working and getting promoted I felt like shit and took shit from other punks.
I feel like the people that would criticize you for talking about being successful on UA-cam, already don't like you for other reasons tbh. So why not just do it
You want to share business thoughts on your channel. You’ve done some of that in the past! Also, I thought the whole point of starting a second channel was to be free of the invisible constraints that your fan base was putting on your main channel. I’ve looked into starting freelance design, even took a bunch of Skillshare courses in some of that (thanks to one of your sponsorships), but with 3 kids and a wife at home it’s hard to even find the space to make that a side hustle with extra obligations and responsibilities; and insurmountable at best to drop things to make the time as a full time gig out of the gate.
I think the reason most listeners believe financially successful bands become compromised is due to the label / management control. It’s one of the reasons I love (and keep begging you to do a deep dive on) Glassjaw. They had very big issues with Roadrunner, who refused to release their second album as the band wanted. The band breached their contract to walk away and go independent. They then released a bunch of great EPs that were genre pushing but received very little attention. There is sometimes integrity with walking away from the success that comes from “selling out”. A lot of this comes down to the contract the band / artist commits to, and each of these contracts vary widely.
I just wanna say Finn, I would honestly love a video if you detailing your business, how much you make from business with UA-cam and other endeavors, and how you got started making money
The reason why people get mad about bands "selling out" is because their music tends to suck after the fact. KoRn is a great example. Once Issues came out, their music went drastically downhill.
I think part of the issue is bands that we love suddenly change their sound to be more radio friendly when they get signed. I loved the band Gob in their early years but then they got a big deal and turned into a pop punk band.
Another example are The Offspring. An obscure punk band whose sudden success noone could predict. They just had a song that took off. Both their and Nirvanas success paved the way for lots of other bands. We need popular bands because the open an audience for smaller bands too.
It's a vicious cycle. You come up in a scene that hates the system, you preach about destroying it in lyrics and live by those rules in theory, but at the end of the day it's a system you're obligated to participate in whether you agree with it or not (unless you want to live under a bridge). But if you participate in the system enough to escape poverty then it's viewed as you being complacent by your peers and you get accused of selling out. You can still hold alot of punk rock values and be successful. It's really only selling out if you compromise your art and integrity for the sake of a paycheck. I think alot of fans have misguided anger toward success because the bigger a band gets the less accessible they are, and that ultimately feeds in to the us vs them mentality because It gets to a point that they feel left behind and take all their anger out on the band for advancing in life. It is kind of understandable, as successful people tend to act like "hey anybody can do it!" Like it's fast and easy, but in the end it's the wrong emotion to be projecting into the world
Far too many people can’t tell the difference between being wealthy for wealth’s sake and being financially comfortable. Something like 70-80% of American households are living paycheck to paycheck. The financial stress of not knowing how you’ll get through the next month and constantly failing to save money for a rainy day takes a toll on everyone’s mental health. If you’re watching someone get significantly wealthier, chances are, they’re not happy to have more wealth than anyone needs. Most people don’t care about that. They’re probably happy because they won’t need to worry so much about saving dollars at the grocery store and spending decades paying off their student loans. Most people don’t love money, but they hate being broke.
Difficult to understand, really; some of my favourite songs by my favourite band (Bad Religion) are from their "sell-out" years. And everybody seem to love Graves Misfits records, those are "sell-outs" also. I think the problem is, mostly, when the band suddenly and completely changes their style for a wider audience acceptance, then older fans might feel betrayed; or is just some underground nonsense. I'm the opposite, I wish some artists would've been bigger; Strung Out, for example, I wish they were as big as Avenged Sevenfold, but that's not happening, unfortunately. I really don't care about underground nonsense, as long as I like the music and the artist is working hard, I don't care.
IMO the term "sellout" does not refer to a band or artist that finds commercial or monetary success. It refers to a band that waters down of completely changes their sound for the goal of success. There are plenty of bands that have been commercially successful without changing their sound to capture a wider audience. (311, Tool, Dave Matthews Band etc) There are also a plethora of bands from many genres that give that appearance. (Sugar Ray, Parkway Drive, AFI, Rise Against, Avenged Sevenfold etc) I dont know for a fact that these bands did "sellout" but the fact is as their sound softened, their popularity grew. I think people resent when a band they love change for what they feel is for the worse. When I was in high school alot of people wouldn't give Blink the time of day or would even poke fun at you for liking it and then Enema came out and alot of those same people started liking it. It was weird to see guys on the football team listening to what once was a skatepunk band. That being said, Dave Grohl is the last guy you could consider a sellout. Met him at a Bad Brains show and he was a great dude and genuine music fan.
Just from an artistic standpoint; their first album had such a small budget; shopping for a better deal gives them more money for creating the art; success is a means to an end. Success for success sake doesn’t mean you’re not “artistically sound”
Like you said bro, it's a balance for sure. I'm all for lifting up my friends that are successful, but what I don't like is Bragging, like people taking things to the head.
Yes Finn 🙌 needed to hear you assess this, I’m successful with UA-cam/TV but I’m holding myself back from making the most of it because of Dead Kennedys and Propaghandi basically 😂
Very good point. Why shouldn’t musicians get paid - the same as everyone else does? I think the very few bands coming from the hardcore scene that taste mainstream success usually do it right by bringing up other cool acts to support them etc… there may be the odd exception but I’m mainly thinking positive things happen then - or certainly can do. Take the awesome bring me the horizon … who’d have thought they’d end up playing to 20k people a night, worldwide! Their show is amazing - one can see where ones ticket money is going, and most importantly they’re giving smaller acts a break as openers. Currently knocked loose - who r f**kin great! Getting the exposure of their lives + joining in on ‘diamonds aren’t forever’ at the end of the set. I’m seeing the positive side here! Anyway, very interesting + important points being made in this video - cheers!
Making money gets you better equipment to play and sound better Your band should always be trying to get better Was the last album better than the one we made before? Set Your Goals Finn knows what that last line is from
Ill say now that im older, if my favorite artist got more famous and made it "big" id be happy as hell and support them even more. Back when i was an edgy wanna be teen just getting into the heavy metal scene, i used to be the one to call bands sell outs and all that. I dont agree with it anymore, but back in the day i feel as if for me personally, when a band sold out, they werent doing it for what they originally started it as, and are now willing to do anything to keep the fame and money rolling in. Theres bands out there that once they became mainstream or really popular, they changed up their style, made bad music, or just all around changed. Again this is just my personal take on it, but back then it was typical for bands to change for the worse and not for the better, pushing their former fan base away. Take Bassnectar for example. An og underground edm dj finally made a name for himself, and let it go to his head. Lorin eventually ended up telling his fans not to come to his shows (take what he actually said how you want, but what he created is what he told to stay away), among other things. Im older now, and just listen to what sounds good to me. Love your videos finn, sorry if i came off any type of dick ish way
Fans/bands wanting ‘pure and authentic art’ feel like they havent been hungry or had to pay rent and hope the electricity isnt getting shut off. Back in the day rich nobles would sponsor an artist and pay for everything. Now people want the art from starving artists.
I’m reading “Sellout” by Dan Ozzi now. It’s pretty crazy how a whole fan base basically turned their backs on a band simply because they had the talent and opportunity to make a better living
there's a lot to this that I agree. reductively, "losers hate winners" and "crabs in a bucket theory" play a big part. I do think there has been a glamorization of "starving artist" and "gutter" aesthetics derived from the OG punk scene for way too long to where any kind of mainstream success equates to selling out your values of the anti-authoritarian, anti-state ideology. I think as more social positive mindset subcultures (ex. posi hardcore, straight edge, pop punk) emerged, it became more acceptable to succeed and improve one's material conditions. But it didn't come with that generational trauma skepticism of intent, due to those that can be arguably labeled "scene tourists."
i feel like to an extent this is whats currently happening with lorna shore. they're becoming successful and appeal to a group outside of the punk and metal community so the same people that loved them a year ago now hate them for...some reason
When I was 18 and part of our local punkscene I got the oppurtunity to join the army and get trained as airplane mechanic... Since I was fed up with hanging around and smoking weed all day I took the chance and accepted the offer. Let's say this decision didn't make me very populair in the local "scene".
I feel the last bit about success and being a part of community. I think we as people are wired to be a part of a tribe but we always tend to fuck it up. Success can feel very lonely because once you start to stand out, people will find whatever petty reason they want to hate on you. That's why I believe successful people get depressed. I mean, I don't make huge amount of money but I alone make more money than some families of four do in my country. It's certainly enough to keep me happy, I can afford most stuff I want. And I get hated by collagues because I am doing too much and it makes them look bad and the metal and hardcore community dislike me because I like to wear fancier and colourful clothes. It's fucking weird. It's just about making peace within yourself and finding your tribe where you can be free.
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idk Finn , I mean I like bands like Clutch, Deftones, Mastadon, TOOL, Mr.Bungle, Trivium, Disturbed, Rise Against and several others like that and people seem to give them hate.
My hometown in Minnesota was a little hub for punk music scene in the early nineties. Green Day used to play the area quite a bit before Dookie came out. We had a local independent record store tied to this scene. A good friend of mine wanted to buy the Dookie album but since he was part of the scene he didn't want to be seen buying their album since they were now popular. Since I wasn't part of the scene, he gave me the money to go into the store and buy the album for him. Looking back it was so ridiculous.
The Minnesota hard-core scene was something else back in the day.
I luv this video and your opinion and i will be the first person to say it i wanna be a billionaire one day i know that money doesn't buy you happiness but helps a lot of people family and your " real friends" i understand from some people can't understand because they are use to be miserable and unhappy life but they can't blame you for wanting more fore you and the people who are important for you . This is my opinion ♥️
Even I often heard stuff about that scene in 80s O.C., CA.
@@kiddvengeance4455 Do you remember Threadbare?
Duluth?
Hip hop: "Haha your rapper only has 1 million listens!" "NoOOo hE's stILl GoAT"
Metal: "This band has 5 followers and we're 2 of them" "Sellouts"
As annoying as it is when people in rap glorify material wealth and superficial success above all else, it’s just as harmful when underground bands jump to the opposite extreme
@@meowtherainbowx4163 you clearly don't know nothing about rap music besides the mainstream because on the flip side there are plenty of people that will call the rapper a sell out or say they ain't "real hip hop" because they're popular
@@misfittv313 Oh, I’m not surprised. I’m aware that people with that mentality exist in rap, too. However, a lot of rock and metal sub genres, especially anything punk or extreme metal, lack a mainstream equivalent. There are very few, if any, people who are into grindcore for the money because it’s just not there. Rap is a big enough umbrella to contain tons of styles with the potential to be commercially successful, and tons of pop music today consists of rap and pop/rap crossovers.
This was really funny and true. I'm a metalhead and when I was younger I thought that way. Now that I'm 31 I just don't. It was like immature prideful thinking. I called Metallica sellouts for example. If a person actually takes the time to listen to interviews of them or watch, whatever... They were just being genuine to themselves and trying to make the best music they could and they wrote what sounded good to THEM. Do I think "St. Anger" is a shit album? Yes. But at least they were being their genuine selves. It wasn't selling out. The "Black Album" wasn't selling out. Cutting their hair wasn't selling out. They were already successful. I appreciate that they experimented even if I didn't like it. We as "metalheads" need to start having a little empathy and sympathy and maybe question why the band isn't what you expected anymore? Do you want them to sound the same forever? Every album sounding the same? If a band chooses artistically chooses to change their sound and becomes successful, why hate? If you don't like it fine but there are soo many other people that do. It doesn't mean they sold out. It doesn't mean they don't have integrity. Sometimes your favorite band might decide to do an Opeth lol. I don't personally enjoy them anymore the same as far as new albums after "Warershed." But again they never sold out. Why do people assume what band's intentions are? You're not them. You have no fucking clue why they did this or that. Most of them are just writing what they want to write. It's childish to assume what a stranger does. It's actually pretty fucking stupid. Elitism is a problem in Rock music. Here end. Just like what you like and don't worry about what other people think and don't judge people you don't know. Stop thinking you know everything. No one knows EVERYTHING YOU C-WORD! RANT FINISHED. IF ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY READ THIS ALL.. YOURE A BOSS.
@@sumdude116 THANK YOU. I'm so glad someone finally took the time to say this. It's so frustrating for me as a metalhead always hearing other metalheads complaining about "selling out" or being so hard on people for liking music that isn't as heavy. There is nothing wrong with changing your sound sometimes, as long as you still stay true to yourselves and what your music is. I can forgive a band "selling out" or changing their sound a bit, if the music is still recognizable or is still really good even if it is different. More people need to hear this. Just because a band has a large quantity of fans, is successful, or starts writing ballads along with their heavy songs, doesn't mean they suck or that they're selling out. They're just trying something different. And that's okay.
Rock Scene: Our genre is dying, we need to do something about it! :(
Also the Rock Scene: Making money through music is selling out >:(
Took the words out of my mouth. Most people in the world are poor, so it's no surprise that the entrepreneurial spirit of hip hop resonates with their hopes and dreams more than some crusty boomer lamenting on the pitfalls of materialism.
@@greasybumpkin1661 well, when you think about it, the boomers are the ones who invented the rock culture: in the 60's-70s, rock music was in it's full growth because there was no big record label telling artists about how to make their music, the result: much artists of this era is still remembered today, think of the Beatles, the Stones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, King Crimson, etc. Any of these bands will have a career because their music won't be enough commercial in terms of mass broadcasting and by this way are not bringing money to their labels. So again, it's more about the greed of the music business than the musician's desire to be commercial, it's just the way the music business works. The solution is that music business shouldn't be ruled by big media conglomerates but by compagnies who wanted to take chances both musically and financially.
@@oliviertruchon5648 well yeah, I'm aware that rock was invented by a generation who was young in the 60/70s, and I'm aware there's greed in the music industry. But what's that got to do with my point? Whatever went down during that era, does not resonate with the youth of today. You could buy a house with a factory job back then, higher ed was free, pensions were good, you had the luxury of turning down commercial creative work because it was easier to make a living by other means. That's not the case now, if it was then rock would still be king.
@@greasybumpkin1661 first, that music and entrepreneurship are more or less in harmony and second i don't like the fact that you're bashing the boomers.
@@oliviertruchon5648 alright then, I'll modify that, seen plenty of GenX and Millennails spout the same bullshit and spout it more fervently. Is that better?
And yeah I agree art and entrepreneurship are linked, it's typically usually fans of such things saying that they aren't
Money doesn’t buy you happiness, but it does buy you security. You can breathe the sigh of relieve of the worst happens
So we need to make sure more people have the piece of mind that money can give you.
Money buys financial freedom. The rest is up to you
Some believe in love, and some believe in friends
But n****s like me believe in making ends
'Cause even when your bitch wants to trick around,
You know the money's got you safe and sound
Some believe in Jesus
Some believe in Allah
But n****s like me believe in making dollars
'Cause even when yo n****s wanna be untrue,
You know the money's still good to you.
-DJ Quik
Money only offers temporary solutions. sure you can afford a security system, but your gucci jacket might attract the wrong attention when your out at night.
@@benjaminwatt2436 With how prevalent fakes/replicas are and how many poors flex clothing (gen or rep) emblazoned with _ ,_ a Gucci jacket doesn’t mean anything. More so means that person _used to have_ a little bit of money but they spent it on an ostentatious jacket.
Real killers/N’s/old money moves in silence.
It’s the same in the Etsy and small maker world online. My wife owns her own company. Built it from scratch. Designs,makes and sells her own products. Hand makes every single item as they are ordered. She is so conscious about not accidentally showing the nice purses she bought herself because then it wouldn’t make her look like a small creator anymore. The fear that people might see it and think she’s “too big” and support someone else. She doesn’t say that she payed off her student loans in the fist few months meanwhile no one in the industry her degree is in was hiring.
Sad, isn’t it?
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA yeah it keeps the honest, hardworking people who find success quiet. Leaving the “buy my plan” “invest in my NFT series” scammers the only avenue for people looking to get out of poverty, make extra cash.
I like what Josh Homme of ‘Eagles of Death Metal’ said in an old interview: “It’s only selling out if you didn’t want to do it in the first place.”
Right, it's based on your own personal morals and beliefs.
Lol funny hearing someone refer to Josh Homme from Eagles of Death Metal instead of Queens of the Stone Age but still, very true
When I was young, I complained about bands selling out. Then I realized "well, I've never turned down a raise, why should I give a shit about them doing the same thing?" People should get paid for their work.
Exactly! I think it was the black keys that got attacked online years ago for taking a million bucks to have their big hit at the time played in a Kia commercial and people said they sold out. Sorry but if I wrote a hit song and someone offered me a million dollars to use the song in a commercial I would say yes in less than a heartbeat. Literally any human being would do the same
I don’t mind if a band changes their sound to reach a wider audience, but that doesn’t mean the fans are obligated to like the new sound or the new direction.
@@elosoguapo8137 fair enough. I think that’s something the band has to take into consideration too. Knowing by changing the sound they’ll inevitably lose fans in the process
@@johnkeller2669 it’s not an uncommon reason people leave bands
Definitely not that simple. You would be right if those bands were actually saying "accept the reality as it is and go out there and make yourself useful in this world", but no, they do the exact opposite. Or at least the bands that are usually considered "sell-outs".
For the hardcore I really think it comes with the anarchist/anti capitalist mentality that was in the origins of punk/hardcore. Yet, while time passes, the ideology of it is lost, so you only hate money because you hate it, that becomes far more toxic since you forget that money is hated because people have certain beliefs. The scene eventually forgot that not everyone was anarchist and so, not everyone hated money and thought of it as essentially evil
If one views the world at 60 the same way they viewed it at 16 then they have wasted their life.
As much as people can get lost in the sauce with their ideology, it’s at least good to have a good idea of what you’re fighting for and how your values are reflected by your words and actions. Seeing people get out of poverty should be a good thing. Part of the point is that the capitalist system keeps people poor and unequal. If someone manages to make a living not by exploiting others but just being a good musician and getting people to give them money for their art, what’s the harm? Even if they get signed to a greedy major label, if the label is ultimately just facilitating the discovery of the artist and taking a large cut, the artist themselves are not exploiting anyone. It’s this zero-sum game mentality that people have. They think someone else’s success is built from their failure, which simply is not true, at least not by default.
@@meowtherainbowx4163 most capitalist nation have the lowest homeless rates and lowest poor percentages. Also communistic nations like, Russia, China, Venezuela, etc, have notoriously high poverty brackets. anyone who thinks capitalism and free market is not working is ignoring the world we live in.
@@benjaminwatt2436 _”Losers hate winners”_ is embodied by hating on capitalism. Capitalism is great. What they truly do not like is federal government overreaching and central banks inflating currency and sapping value out of their pockets.
@@benjaminwatt2436 Yep. Walk around the city center of any US city, and you just know the USA is the world leader in solving homelessness.
Lagwagon said it best back in '94 on Know It All
The bands are good
'til they make enough cash to eat food and get a pad
Then they're sold out and their music is cliché
Because talent's exclusive to bands without pay
People love to hate the end result of success. It's tied to a "that person has this or that" or "they're just lucky" and negate the sacrifice to of what the individual gave up. No what the end result of what you want to achieve, people have to sacrifice things in their life to get it. You can say that person had this resource or was lucky, but that's to justify your own inaction in giving all you have. Maybe it's time to think of why you didn't achieve something because in reality, you really didn't have the same drive to pursue it. I sure as hell have fallen for that before. But the achievements I got because deep down I knew it was something I couldn't live without, I walk out of the weeks/months/years of smiling battered and bruised, but so happy of how I learned and developed. It has taken me decades to break the mentality of "it's ok to be successful" - I've hidden my military medals in boxes, Ironman medals in bags, kept silent of any achievement; but then instead of being someone who name drops or prides my value off someone else's success, I decided to learn about myself and accept every part of me from the lowest points in the journey to highest achievements. Stop learning about someone else and using their success to fill a false pride, learn about you and never be ashamed of what you consider to be the success in your life. Hopefully that makes sense!
Insecurities and jealousy is nuts man we all feel it and have those types of things but to project them on someone who has become successful and hold it against them is weak no question. Always gonna support you though Finn I’ve enjoyed seeing your channel become successful and welcome your opinions and tips👍🏻.
The issue with selling out isn't about being successful as much as it is about changing your sound to make it more mainstream and alienating your core audience. Metal elitists still love Maiden, Sabbath, Priest, etc and they've all sold millions of albums and headlined huge venues.
I was (never really, but always identified as) a part of the underground/punk scene in Puerto Rico’s west coast during the early 2000’s… and what drew me into that scene, was the attitudes and values I saw as counter culture and anti-establishment. I thought it was rebellious or whatever. Later as I studied social sciences in college, I came to realized that the whole punk ethos was/is anchored in actual social theory and philosophy. Theory and philosophy that are critical of mainstream socioeconomic/political/culture. Even though punk kids and most people won’t know how to articulate those theoretical concepts, and end up reducing them to money = bad or rich guy = evil… it fundamentally boils down to a critique of the ethics of exploitation. Because to “make money” in a capitalist system implies; to exploit labor out of, most of the profits they generate. Usually the bands or artists are the workers being exploited by labels etc… but when a band “makes it” or is perceived as “selling out” it’s because they are seen as; in the least going along with the exploitation of others now that it benefits them or at worst they seem to be directly/blatantly participating in said exploitation. No one is really checking to see if a band is paying fair wages to their roadies or whatever, their status as “rockstars” (used as pejorative back in my scene) was enough to assume the likelihood of them being a**holes… It is a shallow critique for sure and I myself am guilty of making it sometimes, but now I see that; generally things are more complex, and deserve a much more nuanced understanding. But even if it is quite reductionist, I still feel it originates from a valid materialist critique of everyday life.
I always found the sellout argument dumb because The Ramones and The Clash were two of the biggest and most beloved punk bands of all time. I was in 7th or 8th grade when Blink’s “Enema of the State” came out and that’s what got me into punk. It was great seeing the genre grow in success over the next few years and all the great bands and music we got. Blink was my gateway to a larger world. They exposed me to NOFX, Bad Religion, and The Vandals which in turn exposed me to the record labels Fat Wreck, Epitaph, and Kung Fu which exposed me to even more bands and got me looking at other record labels and their artists.
When one band in a genre becomes successful, the whole genre becomes successful, and more bands become successful. A rising tide lifts all ships. Of it wasn’t for Blink, almost none of the bands in my CD collection would be there. That single band was the biggest influence on my entire life outside of my parents.
Agree 100% about The Ramones and The Clash. They are generally punk rock royalty but their songs had hooks and were pop radio friendly. Even The Sex Pistols were largely curated by Malcolm McClaren to be sold as rebellion.
This video hit very hard for me. Self fulfilling prophecies, fear of success or failure, issues with self esteem, a lot of it is tied together
I always defined selling out as compromising on the music you actually like to make music you do not because it is the in thing. There are a lot of bands/groups/artists that I feel may have sold out but unless they say it or people who know them confirm it then i can never know for sure
Its a strange one.
If you takes the Offspring example, they were still on Epitaph when 'Smash' exceeded expectations.
That album did really well, far as I recall its still the most 'successful' independent album of all time.
Which goes to show that maybe, its simply more about exposure more than anything.
If a wider range of audience hears your music, you'll get more attention and inevitably more fandom.
Now obviously Nirvana were on a big label by the time Nevermind dropped however, at the time it was fresh and obviously Nirvana channelled their 'punk' leanings and origins.
revolutionary
Good topic to discuss! The main reason I'm subscribed to you is to learn from you about music business, marketing, and such things, so I for one would actually love to hear you share more about your financial successes and what you've learned!
I had some similar comments on one of your videos about hair metal bands.
But essentially, metal has generally been in opposition to some form of "mainstream" pop music. Boy bands, etc.
So the rejection by fans of "successful" metal bands has nothing to do with money or success. It's about the bands changing their sound from something hard-core and rebellious, to something more "radio friendly". The hair band thing is a perfect example. That stuff started out as metal. As something very rebellious. But those bands became pop-metal.
Anyhow, I don't think anyone cares if a band like Slayer can be financially successful, as long as they don't change their sound too drastically.
Bands like Green Day, were pop-punk from the outset. So if the general public likes the pop/punk blend, that's great. Good for them. But they and their fans shouldn't expect hard-core punk fans to accept them as one of them. It's a different type of music.
Great topic. "Sellout" was a huge insult back in the day.
This attitude is everywhere and it makes me so sad. I started a new job in an area I just moved to and in trying to connect with my coworkers, I'm truthful about the typical "what brought you here, where are you from, etc." questions. With a few coworkers I'm feeling a completely different energy towards me now that they know we came here because my SO is highly educated and working in a niche high paying industry. Like they assume we both just fell into money and success and didn't have years of financial anxiety before (and still do bc of HCoL and no family to fall on here if things go south) and stress getting here.
I'm so proud of SO (and myself!) for getting to where we are now and continuing on our future path to more success. Just really hits home how important having the right people in your corner and letting go of limiting beliefs is.
There were so many facts here.
Bottom line, there are losers and winners, and misery loves company. Your friends are those who build you up, keep pushing you towards interests, and are there to help.
It's a youth thing, it's that simple. When I was a kid at 16 and listened to Hardcore and Punk, I was against all big bands, pro straightedge, vegan. It's not until you grow up, move out and realise money does indeed make the World go round and it has to be made. I think Madball wrote a great song about this subject D.I.F.M.M.
Big difference between age & maturity.
I often assume that it’s not just the money itself but it’s the (often irrational) fear that the moment their favorite artist has money and success they will do evil things with it. They see all the atrocities of the world committed by people who not only have a lot of money but a lot of clout and influence so if their favorite artist becomes wealthy and successful they will use that wealth and success for the purpose of evil. At least that’s how I see it.
I think it's the constant comparison of ourselves to others that brings people to these type of feelings. They want a small band who rebels to show their angst and they think once the band gets to be "better than them" that they aren't the same anymore. People change people grow and if you don't you end being a hater on those who do.
all of the guys complaining about being "sellouts" probably dont shower, have bo and just go to local shows all day every day, sitting in their moms basement complaining
@@mike04574 don't go knocking local shows, it's where everybody gets their start.
Love for all levels in music friend.
Yet didn't know how hard it was for the band to be working lots of overtime in dead end jobs, struggling to pay bills in their 20s. Yeah when you're living with your parents and have never lived on your own and paid for what you have, it's hard to comprehend why your favorite band "sold out".
Great stuff Finn. I stopped listening to bands like Foo Fighters and Linkin Park as a teenager because they were "famous" (meanwhile I was buying Alice in Chains and Beatles shirts so my sense of elitism was super misguided). As I got older I realized "what the fuck am I doing? I'm missing out on so much good music". Now I have completely changed. One of my favorite bands of all time Fleet Foxes just did a song with Post Malone and it made me so happy. Fleet Foxes are plenty big, but it just made me so happy, Post Malone is great. 10 years ago i would have been mad. It's really twisted.
But for the Beatles, elitism can be accepted.
Money might not buy happiness, but it provides security, and security provides peace of mind. And that's important to have.
I'm 29 and I've never had over $1000 in savings, I would watch that video about money
I don’t think I ever had more than that when I was 29 either
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA maybe someday
@@FlexMarzipan you might need some comprehension development.
Interesting topic and one I have been thinking about a lot lately in different respects.
I grew up in a very blue collar town in KS going to punk/hardcore/DIY shows. I think for a lot of people it created a community where the rules of the outside world (monetary/capitalistic success) were not a metric for status or one's worth... which is and was beautiful. However, eventually we all grow up. Eventually some of us became successful due to education, family socio-economic status, and our own personal choices. It was also the case that others did not become successful that they slipped into a spiral of stagnation, making short sighted decisions, and generally just not having any kind of vision for their life aside from numbing the present.
It's really difficult for me to run into those people from my past that either got a bad hand in life, made bad decisions, or just never believed in themselves... because they are resentful of me and any of our other friends who took the lesson of punk as something to empower ourselves rather than justify our sense of nihilism and hopelessness. For me, punk was always about finding your power and making something happen.
I could go on about this forever, but if there's one thing I have learned its that the more you start encountering negative energy from your friends or bystanders, the more you can be sure you are going the right way.
A band I was in the late '90s split just because I wanted to pop it up a little bit and become popular as the "riff" writer. They wanted to go heavier. We were already heavy.
Great video Finn! Don’t be afraid to make what content you want to make.
That reporter was the same reporter that was being sneaky and trying to ask Robert Downey Jr about his drug history. He definitely has a punchable face at this point.
I don’t think it’s only hating rich people like you said. A lot of artists lose their passion/anger/hunger and desire to innovate/taking risks once they achieve a certain status and just sort of ride the wave and go softer/lose their essence, seemingly focusing on banking and end up creating inferior material as time goes by.
It's one of the reasons why we like Bakuman so much, right? The mindset that's displayed in that show is the opposite of crab mentality. Each manga artist is certainly a bit jealous when one of their competitors is more successful than them, but much more so they're happy for them AND inspired to catch up and draw even
That manga is so great
This happens in pro wrestling all the time. People love underdog stories and the chase, but grow bored or resentful of champions even thought they were cheering them weeks before.
the whole audience turned on cody with like one mediocre program.
Alot of the toxicity is the reason Kurt is no longer with us tbh. This is a big topic and I love this video.
“money may not buy you happiness but being poor fuckin sucks.”
best thing i’ve heard all week
You should check out Dan Ozzi's book;
Sellout: The Major-Label Feeding Frenzy That Swept Punk, Emo, and Hardcore (1994-2007)
Covers the stories of Green Day, Jawbreaker, Jimmy Eat World, Blink-182, At the Drive-In, The Donnas, Thursday
The Distillers, My Chemical Romance, Rise Against, Against Me!
Such a good read, and really fascinating to hear from those bands about what was happening behind the scenes, and why they made their decisions
So many music fans are obnoxiously pushing their favorite bands on their friends and hope they check them out and like them just the same as they do, and then get upset at the band if they get bigger... Like wtf?
I remember hearing Green Day talk about a club they used to play at back in the day. Billy Joe said this place was like home to them. He talked about going back to visit and going to the bathroom and somebody had spray painted death to Billy Joe on the wall. A lot of the times when people say a band is selling out a lot of times it's to try to boost their own credibility in the scene.
Finn thanks for this video and pointing out these things. I knew a lot of punks and saw these issues myself. I saw a lot of them adopted these ideas when they were kids in the suburbs. Then they grow up and they are in the real world where idealism gets tested. Especially when they move to difficult urban areas where there is a lot of crime and poverty and they are trying to hold on to these ideals. They are not in the suburbs anymore with a house that is paid for, an old car from their parents. To add more pressure the punk scene has a DIY mentality which runs up against the reality of being an adult trying to make ends meet in a big city. Many were self conscious about career choices and being part of the system. They take jobs that maybe they feel don't compromise their ideals but can be low paying. Some I met were bitter about this that their jobs didn't pay more and allow them to live better. Blamed the system that rewards businessmen or other professions. Then again they are punks so shouldn't care that they are barely making ends meet. But that other punk guy has some vaguely artistic job and is making bank. Oh but doesn't he have a trust fund? Yes the trust fund witch hunt. Sorry I'm rambling am in a rush but you get it!
Gatekeeping in music fandom is the main issue with "selling out." Metallica has been accused of selling out on every album they've done after Kill Em All. At some point, being popular is just a symptom of a band doing something in the right place at the right time in front of the right people. Not that they've positioned themselves to do the most radio safe thing ever made. Just because you were a fan when some band played in front of ten people, does not mean that they suck in front of ten thousand.
The artists who hold themselves to a grassroots work ethic or scene clearly have a sanctimonious opinion of bands who became popular. But that doesn't mean that the band who plays at the same dive bar every other Thursday is better than the band who plays 1500 capacity venues 4 days a week. Being known isn't any better than being unknown. It just means that one of them might actually make a living out of it.
Bro make that video on not being broke. That shits more important than the music.
CRABS IN A BUCKET should be a new band name
I’m 33. So, I didn’t experience Nirvana, Green Day etc. until they were already huge. I did witness bands like Against Me!, AFI, Anti-Flag and Rise Against get panned as sellouts. However, the only people I ever saw making those complaints were people who were OBVIOUSLY incredibly privileged. The complaint of “sellout” is an argument that is ridiculous in the first place. We all live in a capitalistic society. Even if you’re band is on an indie label, those indie labels have the same distribution company as major labels most of the time.
i’d tune in to the financial clinic when finn decides to drop that video. being 28, impoverished, and rapidly pursing a slow-burn degree, i’m wayyyyy too down to hear a way out of the work cycle. teach us your ways, million dollar finn
And this is why I enjoy the second channel content more nowadays. The scene is so toxic with these kinds of attitudes that I can barely participate in it at all anymore.
I personally would love to be able to get some business advice from you. It would be cool if maybe there was something you could offer like that alongside your music reviews for Patreon but of course I wouldn't know enough about how that works to be able to say whether that was feasible or not, but I mostly started watching your channel for your videos on business.
As someone who had a pretty broken upbringing, it's very uplifting and jnspiring to hear when you talk about how you had a hard life but did what you could to get to where you are. I especially like your interview with Joey Sturgis.
Ask in my Discord! There’s a business channel
What's up Finn. Thanks for the content.
Thank you for watching!
@@FinnMckentyPRMBA of course bro. Been a fan for a long time.
So many great takes in your video. 💖
Now on the success in music. As long as an artist does what she/he likes to do, should it be underground or mainstream, I don't care.
What I despise is "self proclaimed artists" who do something they don't really care of, just for success. Also when a musical artist switching from a music style she/he seeming loved to do, just to go the "commercial" road, I have more issue with that.
An example would have been : I loved No Doubt, and I loved their music. Now Gwen went her way, and I respect that. I'm not happy that No Doubt didn't have more years and albums, and yet at least Gwen wanted to obviously do something else. I'm fine with that. What I would have despised though, would have been No Doubt doing "Gwen Stefani".
Again I respect her decision, I loved her voice & charisma and yet I never was into what she did, so I stopped to listen to her. But she had the right to do what she wanted. Most of the haters forget that they live in a country with freedom enabled.
I agree with your points in this video. I have been judged numerous times and people aren’t unaware or are intentionally disregarding towards the hard work I put in to get to where I am now in terms of having a decent job and a home
A couple of thoughts. One being beholden to label expectations, writing certain songs, formulaic appearances. Having to reconcile their wants vs bands wants. As bands or artists become more popular, they end up having more time dictated to the business and far less time for where they came from.
My lord this reminds me of how many times I've had to have this talk with people not even in the scene dealing with the dilemma of succeeding. Even in the hood or trailer parks or whatever low income there is, if you better yourself and start building a better future, people want to tear you down to their level. Misery loves company. So many times I had to explain that to people that you just might have to separate yourself from people you knew because they don't want you to be better. They don't want that smack in the face from reality that says "Look at you. You're not motivated. You're not working hard enough. Whatever grim thing people tell themselves. People get comfortable in their hole. Tony Robbins tells you to surround yourself with successful people and you will be that. 3 cheers to Tony Robbins Core. Get back on your bike and ride off into the sunset with the blonde and the billions.
Crab Mentality is a bitch
Tony Robbins changed my life, no joke
Yeah boi. Fire walker 4 LYFE. He certainly opened me up to what PMA really is.
The "punk ethos" is fine when we are 15, too scrawny for sports, not smart enough for school, or have undiagnosed ADHD, and are trapped in the microcosm of our small bubbles. However, there is a huge world out their and eventually, we all find our tribes.
Or, whem Slayer played Raining Blood on Jimmy Fallon, they didnt go mainstream. Mainstream went FUCKIN' SLAYER!
I know I felt that way when I was graduating high school.
Honestly Finn if you did some advice videos on your LinkedIn I think that would be cool and I'd watch
There's nothing you can do when rent and groceries are more than the average pay rate, most ppl work their butts off and get nothing out of it and watch a new hire get a job you are going for, even tho you've been with the company for a decade, the list of BS is endless and has lead to most ppl saying yea I've had enough of this grift, go clean your own floors, make your own food I'm done... some of us are lucky enough to land a good job or have a successful business but at this point those ppl are outliers, the majority of ppl are trapped and complete victims of a corrupt system rigged against them from the day they're born... Telling ppl that it's their mindset that got them to where they are only serves to excuse this rigged system of oligarchs and just makes ppl going through hard times even tougher cause now you're telling them "it's your fault"... A really ridiculous thing to assume about ppl you know nothing about... Also you can't feed yourself or your family with positive thinking, you can't mindset your way out of starvation.... If you really want to help ppl and want them to be happy then you wouldn't be excusing and defending this modern day system which is literally no different than slavery.... Most ppl work because if they don't they'll starve or be homeless, that is not a workforce it's coerced labor and servitude, which is slavery...
The foo fighters were a thing during nirvana but it wasn't called foo fighters
Thank you for talking about this, Finn. One thing I don't get is why someone would be mad that more people know about their favorite bands. I love it when I find out someone knows a smaller band that I love. It's fun to share that experience with other people, just like a really popular tv show or movie. Has never made any sense to me.
In DC we all loved to praise the DIY ethics of Fugazi and Dischord and whatnot. And the old school thrash metal fans had their tantrums with Black Album. But those attitudes just seem a bit silly to me now. Hell, if I was a successful musician I'd probably try to open up a couple restaurants if I could.
Alot of ppl mistake "socialisms" and things like "tax the super rich" as "I don't want ppl to have what I don't". It's really about I don't want anyone to fall so low they have nothing (safety net). And most don't hate companies, they hate how they pay an unlivable wage. That's why me and most ppl atleast I know think capitalism is broken in its current state. I like money, I like being successful. But when a company gets super wealthy and pays ceo's millions, and the workers can't even afford health care or basic human needs.... well we have a problem. All I'm saying is, most ppl (not Twitter keyboard warriors) what successes and celebrate success, but are stuck in a system that makes it very hard to achieve some for yourself, but achieves its own off your hard work. Feel me?
Always think of the bigwig song sellout.
BUT what is selling out?
Do you know what the bands about?
Putting food on the table
More power if your able
You can be dumb or you can be smart
The defination of a rockstar
Is when the music is in your wallet and no longer in your heart
Bigwig is super underrated
When I was a stupid teenager I was so fast to cry about bands selling out. Now that I'm a bitter adult I hope bands get that chance. What a blessing it is to do what you love and get out of the shitty grind of working for other people. I'd give anything to go back and take music seriously for that chance. I'm writing this at work. I'm lucky enough to have a job I like, but I'm still fairly poor. Every ache and pain, every new sound my car makes, it all causes massive, unyielding anxiety because I have no way to remedy these things with the job I have, and if those things get bad enough I'll lose that job. Nobody knows who I am, I'm not inspiring depressed teenagers to keep on living with my work, I'm just a regular dude, and that's fine. There are much worse things to be.
To shit on somebody for rising above regular dude status by doing what they love is mad little dick energy. Chase your dreams, kids. Practice your talent, get good, market it, succeed. And if you don't, at least you tried. Most of us don't even do that.
Well said
There’s so much hate in the world and music is no different. Listen to what ever makes you happy chaps!
I like your old old videos on TPRMBA where you talked a lot about these and gave straight to the point advices on how to grow and be better at bussiness and marketing and social media, etc.
I personally took a lot of your advices for my social media profiles and have achived some things, currently 200k on tiktok 💖
Nice work man!!
Finn you should do a video on Yusaku Maezawa, Japanese billionaire and first civilian to fly on the ISS. He was the drummer for Switch Style and got rich trading, importing, and selling Hardcore CDs from America to Japan. The guy is most definitely the richest hardcore kid to ever exist and became wealthy from the scene itself.
This was a great video Finn (I mean, I genuinely love all of your content lol).
I think that you wanting to help others is freaking awesome! The real ones respect your grind and dedication to do what you do. You're absolutely an influence on me going the route of doing what I dream to do. Appreciate you man.
"commercialism and money in music are good" says the guy shilling hair loss products that probably don't work. Generally speaking, it's not commercial success that people resent. It's usually when artists change their style to appeal to a certain audience or mainstream radio that people get upset. Here's a few hugely popular bands that I've never heard anyone call a sellout: the sex pistols (who were a manufactured BS act anyway), the Ramones, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, slayer, minor threat, biohazard....it goes on and on. People call Metallica sellouts, not because they sold albums, but because they did so by abandoning metal and artificially turning themselves into an alternative band which was trendy at the time. It's fakeness that people hate.
A lot of good point being made here. Yes, capitalism is terrible (it doesn't actually 'trickle down' like economists like to believe it would and I think we all agree that living in a world where Bezos has to have a yacht to get to his bigger yacht while his employees are pissing in bottles because they work an inhuman schedule in order to generate his wealth is batshit crazy and needs to change) but you also need money to live. Both things are true. No, money can't buy happiness but money can buy freedom and, more importantly, security. America in particular LOVES punishing people for not having enough money, from evictions to overdraft fees. As someone who also grew up in the 90's punk scene, looking back, it's comical how anti-working class it was and how it actually propped up the status quo!?
If you're an artist, you're expected to suffer for your art. Anything that doesn't produce a tangible, material good is considered "not real work." So the platonic ideal for a band is: constant touring, sleeping in the van, eating cheese sandwiches, having no health insurance, playing for gas money only and being expected to love it. AND, if your band finds commercial success in spite of all that - you should feel guilty for it. You shouldn't want any material comforts because you're a "real artist" who is somehow able to survive on principles alone?! This was fed to us HARD in the 90's and it didn't help that band's moves were being heavily monitored by kids like myself who never had to worry about where their next meal was coming from.
I think things have settled down nowadays in that regard but it's a shame that the labels who could provide bands some financial security while they worked on their art back in the day are basically non existent now? EVERYONE has to DIY whether they like it or not - and that kind of sucks?
The scene appreciates artists that are young and hungry because they have more ambition than the established bands most of the time. When artists tend to get success, they start being lazy, catering, and focus on money rather than being the best at their craft. Its like when Honda wanted to impress Americans they made the best products ever for cheap. Now they are just like every other manufacturer after achieving money upon achieving their desired success
I'm not a big foo fighters fan, but everytime they play here in new Zealand they get a smaller local pink band to open for em who only ever really get to play bar shows!
This may be the most aligned I've been with you on one of your videos. I grew up poor with 8 siblings and my dad working mill.amd warehouse jobs. When I started working and getting promoted I felt like shit and took shit from other punks.
I feel like the people that would criticize you for talking about being successful on UA-cam, already don't like you for other reasons tbh. So why not just do it
You want to share business thoughts on your channel. You’ve done some of that in the past! Also, I thought the whole point of starting a second channel was to be free of the invisible constraints that your fan base was putting on your main channel.
I’ve looked into starting freelance design, even took a bunch of Skillshare courses in some of that (thanks to one of your sponsorships), but with 3 kids and a wife at home it’s hard to even find the space to make that a side hustle with extra obligations and responsibilities; and insurmountable at best to drop things to make the time as a full time gig out of the gate.
I think the reason most listeners believe financially successful bands become compromised is due to the label / management control. It’s one of the reasons I love (and keep begging you to do a deep dive on) Glassjaw. They had very big issues with Roadrunner, who refused to release their second album as the band wanted. The band breached their contract to walk away and go independent. They then released a bunch of great EPs that were genre pushing but received very little attention. There is sometimes integrity with walking away from the success that comes from “selling out”. A lot of this comes down to the contract the band / artist commits to, and each of these contracts vary widely.
I would be very, very, very, very skeptical about taking any musician's word as gospel. They oftentimes have a very distorted view of reality.
That moment when the subtitles generator shows 'pumpkin hardcore scene'. Truly halloween fitting.
I just wanna say Finn, I would honestly love a video if you detailing your business, how much you make from business with UA-cam and other endeavors, and how you got started making money
Finn, can u please do a video on how to build a brand or how you built both of your channels?
The reason why people get mad about bands "selling out" is because their music tends to suck after the fact. KoRn is a great example. Once Issues came out, their music went drastically downhill.
I think part of the issue is bands that we love suddenly change their sound to be more radio friendly when they get signed. I loved the band Gob in their early years but then they got a big deal and turned into a pop punk band.
Another example are The Offspring. An obscure punk band whose sudden success noone could predict. They just had a song that took off. Both their and Nirvanas success paved the way for lots of other bands. We need popular bands because the open an audience for smaller bands too.
One of the best videos you have ever made 👏👏👏
Very, very important stuff here folks.
It's a vicious cycle. You come up in a scene that hates the system, you preach about destroying it in lyrics and live by those rules in theory, but at the end of the day it's a system you're obligated to participate in whether you agree with it or not (unless you want to live under a bridge). But if you participate in the system enough to escape poverty then it's viewed as you being complacent by your peers and you get accused of selling out. You can still hold alot of punk rock values and be successful. It's really only selling out if you compromise your art and integrity for the sake of a paycheck. I think alot of fans have misguided anger toward success because the bigger a band gets the less accessible they are, and that ultimately feeds in to the us vs them mentality because It gets to a point that they feel left behind and take all their anger out on the band for advancing in life. It is kind of understandable, as successful people tend to act like "hey anybody can do it!" Like it's fast and easy, but in the end it's the wrong emotion to be projecting into the world
Far too many people can’t tell the difference between being wealthy for wealth’s sake and being financially comfortable. Something like 70-80% of American households are living paycheck to paycheck. The financial stress of not knowing how you’ll get through the next month and constantly failing to save money for a rainy day takes a toll on everyone’s mental health. If you’re watching someone get significantly wealthier, chances are, they’re not happy to have more wealth than anyone needs. Most people don’t care about that. They’re probably happy because they won’t need to worry so much about saving dollars at the grocery store and spending decades paying off their student loans. Most people don’t love money, but they hate being broke.
Difficult to understand, really; some of my favourite songs by my favourite band (Bad Religion) are from their "sell-out" years. And everybody seem to love Graves Misfits records, those are "sell-outs" also. I think the problem is, mostly, when the band suddenly and completely changes their style for a wider audience acceptance, then older fans might feel betrayed; or is just some underground nonsense. I'm the opposite, I wish some artists would've been bigger; Strung Out, for example, I wish they were as big as Avenged Sevenfold, but that's not happening, unfortunately. I really don't care about underground nonsense, as long as I like the music and the artist is working hard, I don't care.
Fin read Thomas Sowell... He explains well how the "anointed" Need jealousy as an essential part of their identity
Big fan of sowell!
IMO the term "sellout" does not refer to a band or artist that finds commercial or monetary success. It refers to a band that waters down of completely changes their sound for the goal of success. There are plenty of bands that have been commercially successful without changing their sound to capture a wider audience. (311, Tool, Dave Matthews Band etc) There are also a plethora of bands from many genres that give that appearance. (Sugar Ray, Parkway Drive, AFI, Rise Against, Avenged Sevenfold etc) I dont know for a fact that these bands did "sellout" but the fact is as their sound softened, their popularity grew. I think people resent when a band they love change for what they feel is for the worse. When I was in high school alot of people wouldn't give Blink the time of day or would even poke fun at you for liking it and then Enema came out and alot of those same people started liking it. It was weird to see guys on the football team listening to what once was a skatepunk band. That being said, Dave Grohl is the last guy you could consider a sellout. Met him at a Bad Brains show and he was a great dude and genuine music fan.
Just from an artistic standpoint; their first album had such a small budget; shopping for a better deal gives them more money for creating the art; success is a means to an end. Success for success sake doesn’t mean you’re not “artistically sound”
Like you said bro, it's a balance for sure. I'm all for lifting up my friends that are successful, but what I don't like is Bragging, like people taking things to the head.
Yes Finn 🙌 needed to hear you assess this, I’m successful with UA-cam/TV but I’m holding myself back from making the most of it because of Dead Kennedys and Propaghandi basically 😂
Very good point. Why shouldn’t musicians get paid - the same as everyone else does? I think the very few bands coming from the hardcore scene that taste mainstream success usually do it right by bringing up other cool acts to support them etc… there may be the odd exception but I’m mainly thinking positive things happen then - or certainly can do. Take the awesome bring me the horizon … who’d have thought they’d end up playing to 20k people a night, worldwide! Their show is amazing - one can see where ones ticket money is going, and most importantly they’re giving smaller acts a break as openers. Currently knocked loose - who r f**kin great! Getting the exposure of their lives + joining in on ‘diamonds aren’t forever’ at the end of the set. I’m seeing the positive side here! Anyway, very interesting + important points being made in this video - cheers!
Making money gets you better equipment to play and sound better
Your band should always be trying to get better
Was the last album better than the one we made before?
Set Your Goals
Finn knows what that last line is from
Ill say now that im older, if my favorite artist got more famous and made it "big" id be happy as hell and support them even more. Back when i was an edgy wanna be teen just getting into the heavy metal scene, i used to be the one to call bands sell outs and all that. I dont agree with it anymore, but back in the day i feel as if for me personally, when a band sold out, they werent doing it for what they originally started it as, and are now willing to do anything to keep the fame and money rolling in. Theres bands out there that once they became mainstream or really popular, they changed up their style, made bad music, or just all around changed. Again this is just my personal take on it, but back then it was typical for bands to change for the worse and not for the better, pushing their former fan base away. Take Bassnectar for example. An og underground edm dj finally made a name for himself, and let it go to his head. Lorin eventually ended up telling his fans not to come to his shows (take what he actually said how you want, but what he created is what he told to stay away), among other things. Im older now, and just listen to what sounds good to me. Love your videos finn, sorry if i came off any type of dick ish way
Fans/bands wanting ‘pure and authentic art’ feel like they havent been hungry or had to pay rent and hope the electricity isnt getting shut off.
Back in the day rich nobles would sponsor an artist and pay for everything. Now people want the art from starving artists.
I’m reading “Sellout” by Dan Ozzi now. It’s pretty crazy how a whole fan base basically turned their backs on a band simply because they had the talent and opportunity to make a better living
there's a lot to this that I agree. reductively, "losers hate winners" and "crabs in a bucket theory" play a big part. I do think there has been a glamorization of "starving artist" and "gutter" aesthetics derived from the OG punk scene for way too long to where any kind of mainstream success equates to selling out your values of the anti-authoritarian, anti-state ideology. I think as more social positive mindset subcultures (ex. posi hardcore, straight edge, pop punk) emerged, it became more acceptable to succeed and improve one's material conditions. But it didn't come with that generational trauma skepticism of intent, due to those that can be arguably labeled "scene tourists."
i feel like to an extent this is whats currently happening with lorna shore. they're becoming successful and appeal to a group outside of the punk and metal community so the same people that loved them a year ago now hate them for...some reason
When I was 18 and part of our local punkscene I got the oppurtunity to join the army and get trained as airplane mechanic... Since I was fed up with hanging around and smoking weed all day I took the chance and accepted the offer.
Let's say this decision didn't make me very populair in the local "scene".
I feel the last bit about success and being a part of community.
I think we as people are wired to be a part of a tribe but we always tend to fuck it up. Success can feel very lonely because once you start to stand out, people will find whatever petty reason they want to hate on you. That's why I believe successful people get depressed.
I mean, I don't make huge amount of money but I alone make more money than some families of four do in my country. It's certainly enough to keep me happy, I can afford most stuff I want. And I get hated by collagues because I am doing too much and it makes them look bad and the metal and hardcore community dislike me because I like to wear fancier and colourful clothes. It's fucking weird.
It's just about making peace within yourself and finding your tribe where you can be free.
This is the best video you've ever done on this channel