Opinion : Why Does The US Love Oval Racing?
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
- It's exciting, the tracks were cheap enough to build and operate, the cars were cheap enough to attract large fields, tickets are cheap enough they compare to that of going to a movie and getting some popcorn. The better question is... why wouldn't this be popular?
Follow me like a stalker! (please dont actually stalk me... duh)
/ emptybox_007
Correction: Racing was invented 5 minutes after the SECOND car was built.Also very true that the moonshiners were road racers. If they only turned left they would have been very easy to catch...
Here's my ideas and it might not be right. The entire track can be seen from one spot. That's a massive draw. That's appealing to fans of any sport. With road racing that's not entirely possible. You see cars for a split second and then they are gone. I would love to see every second of the action instead of a few corners.
Alex Waugh this exactly
This is certainly an advantage that oval racing has, but most high level road course events will have jumbo-trons placed around spectator areas so you're not totally missing out, and Indycar and IMSA have both implemented lighted displays on the cars themselves so you can identify track positioning just at a glance.
Paying to go see a race is always fun even if you cant see much. I don't care about large jumbo trons as if Im going to go to the track and watch that I question why I didnt just stay home and spend less money. If I go to the race I want to interact with the event if that means seeing one or two corners and then shooting the breeze with those around me until they come back 2 mins later thats better than a jumbo tron to me.
High level road racing isn't an option to a lot of America. Where I live, there is only one major road track and it is certainly not a big one. There are many more dirt oval tracks that are more accessible and that's why they are more popular.
Well, not exactly, does help. Another example being Mexico City's Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez.
When it was built back in the early 60's, the park where it was built, which was a landfill, was pretty much outside of the city; miles away from it. Flat ground everywhere. not even trees were there. Have seen images in some books of the track from the late 60's early 70's, you could see the track from the Peraltada corner, all the way into the Hairpin, the Esses, and back. Front straight grandstands were just awesome, line of sight was good enough to see cars all over the track. And the track is huge.
Nowadays, all you can see are trees and the hideous former ball park, if you are on the main grandstands and outside of the Peraltada, those are now the best seats at the track these days. changed from 2.5 miles of "Look at all the cars" to "here they come for 15 seconds, you better get ready" ... Feel sorry for F1 fans.
For reference, all of this pretty much applies to drag racing in the US as well and why it maintains popularity.
Randolph Chenowth drag racing is fucking amazing. ever seen a top fuel dragster in person?
Yes. Been to Pomona for the winter nationals several times
Root of NASCAR is illegal wine delivery cars. In prohibition era, all cars must go as fast as possible to prevent government to catch them, them some of them meet up and start to hone skills together, and them racing is born.
I always had trouble explaining "why oval racing?" to my buddies. For me, Nigel Mansell described this perfectly (paraphrasing): "Once you're in the car racing someone there, you forget you're on an oval turning only left." It's just good enough for pure racing, simple and also great view for the fans.
I feel that the early moonshiners were more like America's first rally racers. They drove on a myriad of surfaces in high horsepower cars, trying to get from point A to point B in the shortest amount of time possible. They were "road racers" but only because they raced on roads, not road courses. Great vid as always, Matt! 👍🏼👍🏼
Agree'd. And with that knowledge, it still shocks me that Rally isn't bigger over here in the U.S.
The cheapest dirt track entry fee I have seen is $30 for a class of hobby stock cars that cost about $3000 each. The track had enough spectators and concessions sales to actually pay $1000 to win, so in theory a dominant driver could make money in a season.
On the road racing side it costs about $5000 for a SCCA competition license and about $1200 for a racing weekend with no purse to win, also even SCCA formula vee costs $15000 for something that might be competitive.
I'm English.....my dad loves watching oval racing. He enjoys NASCAR and Indy just as much as F1 - which is pretty rare over this side of the pond - so I suppose you just have to see the qualities in a sport to enjoy it.
Stuart C I'm Welsh but my dad's from Northampton, he grew up 2 miles away from Silverstone, but he used too love all the oval racing around that area when he was younger, banger cars and bikes.....i love NASCAR now because of iRacing, do you know if there's still any Oval racing in the UK anywhere?
+Tony Seal Thanks for your reply mate, that's awesome. I'm not sure to be honest - there probably is, I'm sure that there will be some sort of fanbase that organises races, but I suppose it's just having a facility somewhere. I've been looking at iRacing for that exact reason, but read that it can get pretty expensive so haven't taken the plunge yet. Is it worth the subscription do you think?
Stuart C Yeah it can get expensive, the subscription is fine, it's just like Netflix or something, not an issue, i think if you want everything then it will cost about £600 maybe more.....i haven't got a clue how much I've spent, maybe £100 over the course of a year on new tracks and cars, but as a simulator i think its really worth it.....it's more of a hobby than anything else, sort of like buying a Saxo and taking it for a taste of Rally Cross......well worth it, if you do subscribe then add me up, I'm looking for some other people too race along side, literally.
+Tony Seal Wow, yeah I can see it can get pretty steep then. Will almost certainly give it a crack though and when I do I'll let you know buddy.
Stuart C yeah it can if you let it, but for oval nothing else compares.....they have proper NASCAR Series' and it feels amazing with a decent wheel.....the Rookies are full of gobshites at the moment though, more so than usual, think the Dirt update has brought in a ton of new subscriptions, ohhh and Dirt is ludicrously fun! anyway i got wrecked in both my races tonight in the Pick Up Cup before turn 1 after the green flag showed, literally 5 seconds of green flag racing! so now it's time i go for my C License and race with people that can keep their line a bit better...also the VR experience with iRacing is very good
I remember CART being one of the most diverse racing series ever, everything from super-tight street circuits and short ovals to super high speed speedways and everything in between. Was the Champ Car series more demanding than either the current Formula 1 or Indycar series?
Indycar is the reason why Champ Car died
Donn Alfred Mendoza I would be willing to say current IndyCar is more demanding than Champ Car. The cars are faster on the road and street courses, they are just as physical as ever (loads of downforce with no power steering), have the same level of diversity in venues, and boasts one of the most competitive driver lineups in the world. Current Indycar is so much better than its popularity would suggest.
I haven't been following IndyCar in recent years which is why I asked the question. It seems like the only things missing are a super-short oval like a New Hampshire and International races (like those formerly in Japan and Australia). The lack of popularity is also fairly sad as the driver list looks very talented and very international.
IndyCar has a really tight less then a mile oval in Iowa and shorter ovals at Phoenix and Gateway. The 2017 IndyCar schedule is almost the same ratio of road:street:oval tracks as most CART seasons in the 80s/90s. Also the speeds that the current IndyCar series runs is surpassing the CART records for the first time.
I've said it quite a few times now in comments on UA-cam, The current IndyCar Series has changed significantly from the IRL days of the early 2000s. The people in charge now have closer ties to the CART series than the early IRL days as well.
Cosmic Drew including the new 2018 chassis looks we've seen, it looks very reminiscent to the CART days. People loved that format, it only made sense to do something similar once again.
I grew up on Nascar racing and have gone to many Nascar races over the year, but I also love to watch Indycar and Road racing as well and I like them all motorsports for different reasons. I will say I usually like stock cars better for the fact that you see so much more passing and people rubbing sheet metal together in stock cars than you do in road racing. From a fan's standpoint, it makes it much more fun to watch. I like watching F1, but I always get frustrated that there are very few passes and generally whoever starts first finishes in the top 3.
I also like stock cars because whether they run on ovals or road course, they always seem to make an exciting show. The truck races in Mosport and the Xfinity Series races in Montreal and Road America are good examples of that. But this is my personal opinion. I have on my calendar all nascar, indycar, f1, & sportscar racing schedules. I like to watch them all.
you see.. im pretty different, i like seeing passes but watching a driver drive the life of him trying to catch up and pass just a few people is just as exciting for me as the difficulty per pass is much larger. I've watched some nascar races to say the least, and while it's fun with the passes, crashes become the same old crash pretty fast, and starts being more of a "norm"..
I love the NASCAR races on road courses and wish there were more of them. Most of the road course series, at least at the top level, are very high tech, purpose built road race cars with many driver assists that take the driver out of the race. While in NASCAR, they purpose build cars just for the road races, these are adaptations rather then road race cars from the blueprints up. They make for very exciting races. Also, the best NASCAR drivers are always good road racers, even if they come from pure circle track backgrounds, like Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Mark Martin, Ricky Rudd, etc. A good driver is a good driver, and will drive good on whatever track, once they adapt to it. They try to bring in road race ringers for these races, but those guys never beat the NASCAR guys. Ambrose & Montoya won, but they were racing in NASCAR full time. Fellows won a bunch in the lower series, and did well a couple of times at Cup level, but never won there.
Excellent! Next time someone over here says that oval racing is just turning left I'll show them this.
I live in Vegas, and one thing that is very annoying is that we have no shortage of road courses but NONE are open to the public to drive on. There are 3 at LVMS itself (one being the Roval) and at least 2 others within 1 hour of the city, but only one of those 5 ever does track days (Spring Mountain). On the other hand, for 1000$ you can pick up a beater and be racing around the bullring (short track) in a week. I think that if more tracks let people race on them, road racing would expand again.
For the Magny-Cours thing, since i've been there, i can say that indeed it is in the middle of nowhere and in paper 2,5 hours from Paris. Attendance was pretty good, but road infrastructure leading in and out from the tiny village near the track was so bad, that the traffic jams were horrendous. I remember it took us more than 2 hours to reach the highway both before and after the race.
But the main problem for F1 was the fact that there was nothing to do besides going to the GP and maybe visit the Ligier museum that stood nearby. No fancy restaurants, no big hotels, no clubs or alternative activities and infact there wasn't even enough parking for all the people that came by car, becaude there wasn't any other way to do it!
So, the demise of Magny-Cours was mainly based on marketing reasons. And from what i can gather, it was the main reason that oval racing grew big in the US and became such an integral part of it's racing DNA. Plus, you guys had the space to spam small, medium and big ovals, whilst in Europe there wasn't.
Also, the fact that oval racing is considered a "US thing" i'm sure it has played (wrongly) a part in the fact that, when an effort to promote it on this side started, people with not that much of a brain bashed it right away... Personaly i like this kind of racing with the exception of the "all too artificial" NASCAR. Sitting infront of the tv for hours, through endless commercials, competition and debris yellows, just to watch the 20 last laps, is not my thing.
Oval racing was born in Europe, with the Romans. Yeah, the Romans. Their most famous and followed sport were chariot races, held on what was basically an oval. That was for the very reasons you mentioned. Because it was cheap, because it was entertaining, because it was fast. At the end of the day, oval racing is a very basic form of entertainment, and that is why it is insanely successful, since centuries ago. We generally find entertaining, as human species, what is easy to understand, follow and ultimately, afford. And if down the road it's also violent, that's an added bonus. That's the main recipe for us being able to relieve stress, and it's always been so.
Pretty interesting similarities between you Americans and the Romans, is that you also love anything that has to do with tribunals and forensic activities in general, which was also for the Romans very entertaining, and fighting sports. Also, the "Homo Novus" telltale. The man that makes his own fortune. "American Dream" is what you people like to call it these days :D
I was gonna go blame the Romans, but I figure that'd just be a bridge too far. lol
Ben-Hur was the O G Days of Thunder, people!
I hope that's where the similarities with Romans end (besides pur government's foundation of)
We also love wrestling which was adopted from the romans.
Don't compare Rome with stupide usa
@@TurboGauchiste you cant even spell so your stupid
I live in Wisconsin, the same state as Road America, and when I tell my European friends that I race with that I'm 'only' 4.5 hours away from a large racetrack it blows their minds. As I was growing up and meeting more people online from other countries I was staggered by the realization of how empty Wisconsin really is compared to other countries or even the east coast. A three hour plus drive to get to any of the bigger cities in the state didn't seem crazy, it just seemed inconvenient.
The popularity of oval racing is awesome. It's just a shame that NASCAR keeps trying to mold itself with other "American ball sports" with segments and the playoffs. Because this clearly doesn't work, I definitely don't see oval racing's popularity lasting much longer
I think the only issue with segment racing is having to throw a caution at the end of them. Just score it and keep it green and you dont have dork moves like a lap down car knocking the leader out of the way. I have no issue with the chase, and stages, nor will I try to say its better because its not better its just how it is. If they reverted back tomorrow Id be just as ok with that.
Daniel Schoolmeester I stopped watching NASCAR for a few years and i just got back in to it a little and i still can't get over how they always make a big deal about "overtime". That bugs the crap out of me, idk about anyone else
Same idea i have with this whole Segment racing. Also the shouldn't be counting laps between each stage. That's wasted racing in my opinion.
I feel the same way, but the amount of people at Talladega a couple of weeks ago really shocked me, that also in a isolated area.
Hunter Johnson it's manly due to it being Jr's last year.
Matt, I love that you're doing this! There is so much variety to your channel now. You are moving away from being the best sim racing UA-camr towards just being one of the best UA-camrs in general. Great stuff.
I'd argue auto racing was invented 5 minute after the SECOND automobile was built.
Dirt track ovals are really popular in New Zealand. The most popular classes being full contact classes that we refer to as stockcars or superstocks. But non contact classes like sprintcars and saloons are also raced here.
You can find them by searching for 'NZ stockcars' or similar on youtube. The closest to what we have are the BriSCA F1 cars in the UK which are slightly less bulky.
Luke Holland Many dirt tracks here ib the states have similar classes. the Super Stocks here are mostly old clunkers that wrre put together on a budget that were made to have fun. One of the biggest differences between Euro racing and American racibg is the Mini Stock class. Here, it consists of compact cars with four cylinder engines, while you guys have cars that were build from the ground up and look like smaller scale wingless sprint cars ib a way
Our 'ministocks' are typically youth oriented cars. Limited contact, low cost and only use a four cylinder 1300cc engine.
'Stockcars' are our most common class and are full contact but have certain restrictions to keep costs and speed down. They typically run a straight 6 engine.
'Superstocks' are our top full contact class. They have fewer restrictions than stockcars and can run up to a 248 cubic inch V8.
All three of those classes are custom built chassis' though like you say.
We do have some production car classes that are made to be cheaper like your super stocks but they are more popular in the South Island of NZ, I live in the North Island so I'm not so familiar with them.
I remember in high school, we went to the airport to pick up a foreign exchange student from Germany. When we left the airport and told him it was a three hour drive to our town, he thought we were joking! The guy claimed to have never spent three solid hours in a car on the highway before.
TheWinterOwl They have the Auto Bhan there which has no speed limit.
You absolutely nailed it. Now the big question I have is, why is road racing in America so expensive, infrequent, and fragmented?
I understand that due to the cost, it's incredibly tough financially to run a full season and this tends to lead to short schedules. But if you look at amateur racing on road courses vs. ovals, especially dirt ovals, the difference is massive. At the amateur level, you can consider yourself lucky if your local SCCA or NASA chapter runs 10 weekends a year, and that is of course spread out because your region may require you to drive 6+ hours each way for some of the races. But in dirt racing, I can go to my local track, for most of the US there's at least 1 oval track within an hour of your house, and race 20+ weekends a year.
The format/structure seems to be quite different. With ovals, you race and identify yourself as associated with a track more so than a series, unless you're professional or semi-pro. If you're Joe Nobody who works a 9-5 and races cars as a fun hobby, in the oval world you go to your local track every weekend or so during the non-winter months or maybe a little in the winter-ish months if you live in the south. But if Joe Nobody wants to go road course racing, he has to go to a driving school, buy a more expensive car that has an SCCA logbook, drive further distances for his 6 race season, pay a THOUSAND FUCKING DOLLARS for an entry fee, and that's just what you have to deal with.
I know that road courses are inherently more expensive to build than a bullring, but why is it that the track is a for-profit entity that rents it out to a different for-profit entity (like NASA or Chin Track Days for example) that then charges you for the privilege of racing there?
Seriously, when my dad, brother and I started racing at our local dirt track in 2009, we bought a complete race-ready car for $2500 to compete in the Factory Stock division, which you may know as hobby stocks or street stocks or I stocks or IMCA stock cars depending on where you live. Admittedly, $2500 was a very good deal even at the time, but the overall costs at every aspect were far lower in the racing we did than what road racers deal with. Of course, racing has a way of costing however much you're willing to spend and we couldn't spend as much as the big boys, but for $2500 we had a decently competitive car that my brother drove to a couple of top-5 finishes and occasional heat race of B-main wins, and very frequent top 10s in the A feature. This was in a field that could have 35-50 cars on any given night, so it was definitely a solid car. We ran our racing budget on a shoestring, and if we didn't have any crash damage, our total weekend expenses (pit passes, race fuel, gas for the tow vehicle, food, amortized maintenance costs) could be under $250. Adjust that for inflation and I'm feeling generous so just round that up to $350 in 2019 dollars. Today that wouldn't pay your entry fee at almost any road racing event you can find, hell it may not even be enough to pay your entry fee for a fucking track day.
Why is that? Why are there essentially no spectators at amateur road racing events, and why is there no option for affordable local road racing?
100% Agree. Nothing beats dirt track racing in the US. The best bang for your buck in motorsports by a long shot. The most competitive racing in the world as well as the most exciting racing in the world imo. Road racing just isn't practical enough to have anywhere near the participation that dirt racing has.
I'm gonna add to this a little:
-horse racing in the early 20th century US was huge, standing with boxing and baseball as the predominant sports. Football and basketball weren't even in the discussion. With that came a ton of tracks, and those tracks found alternate purpose for auto racing (as was detailed).
-racing in the united states developed with variety even within the context of "ovals only". People in Indiana and Illinois were predominantly running dirt ovals. In the northeast, tracks are predominantly pavement. Southerners like late models. New Englanders liked modifieds. Western New Yorkers liked supers. Indiana was about sprints and midgets.
-America doesn't have a bunch of inbreds who are given enormous savings by the people to spend stupidly. Our inbreds tend to be poor. Europe's rich gentry could afford to race shiny new expensive sports cars on what was essentially the public's dime and, to varying degrees, got away with it (more on that in a moment). Americans, lacking the benefits of monarchy, generally had to be self made when it came to their riches. Again, this ties back into "oval racing is cheap and ovals are cheap to maintain" which also leads to....
-Europe spent the first half the 20th century embroiled in open conflict and the second half of it split down the middle rattling sabres at one another. Flat track horse racing never took off in Europe as it had in the US on dirt surfaces in part because men of age were either getting killed or killing one another in various events of conquest and self destruction. Europe may very well have gone in a similar direction to the US if they hadn't kept killing each other or massive crowds of fans (as happened in '55) and pausing the evolution of the sport. We know that Monza was as fast as any oval ever built and we know that F1 and what we now recognize as Indycar battled on its high banks twice. Perhaps if the Europeans had won in '58, things would be different. Who knows?
And American road courses were built in rural desolate locales or abandoned airstrips.
Pay drivers, make me wanna commit not living.
Economic reasons. You can fit more people easier, the spotters can see everyone at once, and you can have less concession stands.
I've always wondered why it's only _cars_ on oval tracks that attract such scorn. Horses race on ovals. Ice skaters race on ovals. Watch the Olympics any given year and you'll see a staggering variety of racing events on ovals. Dogs race on ovals. Airplanes race on ovals. Anybody following any of these sports understands there's strategy and tactics involved in racing for position in really tight traffic. It can get complex. Even the dogs!
But as soon as cars start racing on ovals... "they're too stupid to turn right. Boring. Not real racing."
I don't get it. Why does this attitude apply to racecars, and only racecars?
TheWinterOwl I would think it has to do with the idea of athleticism. It's very easy for non-racing fans to see that horse and dog racing requires a form of athletic talent from the animals. Same with ice skating. They don't realise that racing is physically demanding and also takes a lot of skill, because driving is such a normal part of our everyday lives. They think, "my fat uncle can drive a car and turn left on the way to the supermarket! What's the difference!"
indeed Colin, people say for example F1 is just going around and around whats so exciting? The Free Practice sessions where we can get an early idea of strategy and pace, qualifying where we get the idea of the pace of cars and race where we see action. The fact the 5g's of force is acting on the driver and at the same time he is clipping the apex changing the brake balance or engine mixture and talking to the engineer at the same time is amazing
Speed Skating on a road course type layout would be awesome to watch, actually.
I can't guarantee that there are speed skating in road courses, however, you should check out Red Bull Crashed Ice. They are ice skaters, and they race on a narrow track with jumps, S-turns, and hair-pin corners to the finish. Around 70 skaters an event, 4 on the track. Some of the wipeouts are insane. It's my favorite sport that I wouldn't be skilled to do.
Empty Box make it 'red bull crashed ice' in a circuit and that's a great idea
How about an "Oval Racing for dummies/europeans" vid? I can see the appeal but I'm clueless on how to race properly!
YES!!! That would be a great video
Chris Ex the secret to oval racing as far as I know is have as low amounts of under steer as possible. I think that's why some NASCAR drivers have a lot of oversteer sometimes.
Chris Ex Maybe for dummies but not for Europeans as I am European but know about oval racing.
Or better, how to watch a full oval race without falling asleep.
Grew up with the modifieds on dirt oval in upstate New York. It was literally the only thing I wanted to do during the summer. Snowmobiles in the winter. Drinking all year. I miss the simplicity.
Initially I clicked on the video because of the picture. Now I can't stop laughing! 😂
(ps. nice choice of screenshots)
PsychoBloodEagle BR74 what's with that? Are they all just flicking each other off?
The story is that was after a qualifying attempt at some track, the team owner flipped his driver off after missing the show, he returned the favor. How much of that is truth and how much is fiction... who knows. Great picture though!
If I'm not mistaken, that was at The Terre Haute Action Track!
I need this picture on my wall. Where did you find it?
RCM1829 I thought it looked a little familiar. Actually, the first time I ever heard of Terre Haute was World of Outlaws Sprintcars 2002, one of my first ps2 games
Down in Southern Australia I met a speedway racer who'd drive 3 hours to get to his nearest dirt track when he was only 1.5 hours from Winton, a V8 supercar grade track that has a race meet every two weeks, Australia may have around 80 ovals but they're all so close to big cities and towns that the rural drivers are used to going 3 hours to do a few races.
Really interesting topic. The more you think about it, the more it gets clear that money is propably the biggest factor involved. Considering that oval racing was a part of european racing history much more than it is now (Avus or Monza) another important factor were the safety concerns and those are basicly the main reasons why those two tracks didn't run their oval layouts anymore. The sensation of going to a racing arena to watch a race with relatively low amount of money involved was no different in Europe though, especialy in the Nationalsocialistic phase when drivers were celebrated as gladiators for propaganda purposes and the masses came to see the races. If you think that they drove as fast as they do now in the 1930's on those bankings with their streamline cars, it's just crazy that they had zero safety precautions. I think you can notice a few remnants of the concept of oval racing accros the globe on quite a few race tracks, like the Norisring, old Fuji Speedway, Indy Layout at Brands, the Motodrome at Hockenheim or the old S/F and pit section at the Nordschleife just to name a few from the top of my head. Nothing as sophisticated as in the US though. It has been tried but it failed.
They allways tried to reestablish Oval racing in Europe as with the Lausitzring or Rockingham for example, but the problem is that we first of all don't have any series to run specialized oval races nor that we have that many tracks to make a series work per se. Next to the fact that it is a wierd tendency in motorsport that the racetrack has to pay the series and not the other way around . So they had to pay a ton of money to get the Champcar races to Germany, wich I had the luck to see once. It's just a different sensation to watch a race compared to roadracing as you are allways informed of what is happening on track at every moment and can choose your own focus. No video wall in the world will give you that sensation on a Roadcourse. But at the end it failed due to money and the terrible accidents of Alboreto and Zanardi didn't help either. Anyway, nice video. :)
I'm glad someone mentioned Avus and Monza (old). Avus seems to be forgotten now that it is gone, hardly anything left over on the internet, games.. For references: www.circuitsofthepast.nl/nl-NL/avus
And even Monza's oval is rotting away. Very sad..
Avus was an oddity, even in its time
still it is terrible how much post war germans have destroyed the monuments of racing, such as the avus turns and the hockenheim forest section
During the 30's and 40's there was also Midget racing. My first race was in a High school stadium in Paterson and it held just midget races and the Stadium was within walking distance to the apartments the factory workers and families lived in. All the Indy car drivers I grew up with I first saw at hinchliffe stadium
I'm not sure the space is the main argument for the dominance of oval racing in the US. If you look at old racetrack in europe, they often started on public roads that evolved into permanent tracks (Spa, LeMans/Bugatti, Assen, etc). In north america, there is a lack of curvy roads to start with in most of the continent, hence a race focus on max speed.
Another factor is the popularity of motorcycle racing in europe. Riding an oval on a motorcycle is stupidly dangerous and unattractive to watch. By hosting car and motorcycle races, track owners diversify their revenue source and this make road tracks more viable than ovals.
We had public road road courses. The Vanderbilt Cup predates the 500, and some tracks like Watkins Glen were originally public road road course.
Board Track Racing was something that was largely driven by motorcycle racing, which those tracks were the first particularly popular oval tracks. Early on as well motorcycle flat track racing (speedway) was pretty popular as well, and those were on ovals.
@@TacticalCardboard Yes, America has/had public road courses, but Europe simply has more twisty roads because they were built by people without maps just wandering around and making a path. In America you only really get that where the elevation demands it (elsewhere it is just squares because efficiency), which tends to be far away from people. In Europe it is everywhere, so road races could just happen anywhere, and were much more popular. Many circuits, Imola, Assen and Spa to name but three, started out as public roads and were then closed to make permanent circuits. In the early days of motorsport in Europe, ovals were more popular as permanent circuits because if you wanted a course with turns in both directions you could just rope off a public road. Hence Brooklands and Opel Rennbahn, for example.
I’m not sure why it’s specifically popular in America, but I can tell you why I think it’s the most entertaining type of racing. Whether you’re a driver or a fan, there are two things that no other series can match. Massive speeds and constant passing. A lot of F1 circuits like Monaco and Yas Marina are boring because they have few passing opportunities. On ovals, you can pass at just about every corner. This makes exciting races with lots of passing and neck and neck sprints where up to 10 cars can reach first place within the last couple laps.
Oval racing helps me to sleep faster.
That thumbnail picture is just glorious
Thanks for letting us finish the race! I hate it when people cut races or other things short because their commentary ended.
I live in NYC and I'll tell you, Watkins Glen is a lot more than 4 hours away. Maybe more like 6 hours. It's about 4 hours to Cooperstown, then another two hours from there. Thing is, the major highways like the Thruway or the interstates will only get you so close, then to actually reach Watkins Glen itself (or Cooperstown), you have to get onto these little two lane county roads for miles and miles and miles. I know. I've done it. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a shorter (but still very long) ride from Toronto to Watkins Glen than it is from NYC. (Also, and this may be a surprise, when I've been to Watkins Glen & even Pocono, you do see a whole lot of Canadian license plates.)
Your ability to talk sensibly never ceases to amaze me :) I think you would make an awesome teacher.
All I wish is the negative stigma oval racing has internationally would go away. It's freakin' cool, but unless it's the Indy 500 people over here in the UK look at you as if there's something wrong with you if you mention you like oval racing
My friends in the UK share your pain
Canada loves Ovals we need more .
. Nascar Pintys Series awesome local tracks I recently seen its pretty huge here . Smoke, Kasey Kane , J.R Fitzpatrick etc all race locals here .
RF_NightStalker I don’t know where you’re from but I live in New York and I’ve been to a few Canadian ovals there’s a fair few in Ontario
Hello from your neighbor to the north... (A.K.A Minnesota). Also how interesting is that cheapness, part of what made oval racing so popular here in the first place, is what is killing Nascar with how expensive the cars, tickets, and everything has become. Along with other things of course but I feel that is the no.1 reason.
Thanks for the vid. I came here wondering and these are interesting points. I think the speed is one of the biggest factors as well as being able to see the entire track. Put the two together and it seems it is a recipe that has been successful
Two points I wish were mentioned in the video a bit more was the huge positives you get from short track ovals.
1. You can see the whole track. This is a much more attractive idea for potential spectators. (I also go to New Hampshire for the July NASCAR race which is a mile long track and can see everything perfectly. I've been to Daytona and admittedly on the backstretch they're a bit hard to tell anything but the rest of the track was fine.)
2. It feels more competitive. I'll admit, it's a little easier to drive oval compared to road just because it's a repetitive action. It's easier to get a rhythm down. Also for most series the cars are extremely close to being spec to one another so no one has huge advantages over each other. But also, the small distance. When you have 25 cars within a 3/8 mile dirt oval all going sideways constantly, even if some of them are going a lap down, they're still in the field of play a bit. On a 4 mile road course there is a lot of room to spread out.
The perception of distance is definetly different in US and Europe. In my country, which is directly in the middle, you can drive from one end to the other and approx every 8km (5mi) there's a little town or village.
The nearest road courses by me are NJ Motor Sports park and Watkins Glen. Both are about 2 hours from where I live.
Great analysis! Even in Vermont the only decent short track, Thunder Road International SpeedBowl was an hour away from where I lived. It's an awesome little track through!
One thing you forgot about is the seating arrangement at an oval track. Oval tracks allow you to cram a ton of seats into the area that can all see the entire track. This is one defining concept that just isn't realistic at Road courses. Most road courses rely on local track broadcasts to display what is going on outside of the 1 corner you are sitting in.
ethan moore Sonoma turn 7 is an exception to that
Nearest proper road course to me is Heartland Park in Topeka, only 3 hours south of where I live. The last proper road race I believe that was there was when the trucks were racing at that place in the late 90's. Hopefully, they get some good stuff back there with the repave that they will have, as this is only the 2nd year under the facility's new owners.
You should do more opinion videos. This was interesting
"It's no coincidence that many of the oldest tracks in this country are either former horse racing tracks or built on fairgrounds."
Or as is the case with the Nashville Fairgrounds (and many others I'm sure), both.
Also, why does iRacing not have that track yet? I may be biased (I live in Nashville) but that's an amazing track.
You got it right and get the historical perspective is correct except for one thing...the first oval race track in the world was not in the US, but at Brooklands, England in 1907. Indy and Daytona's track design were both inspired by Brooklands as it was a high-bank true oval track and its shape may have even inspired the tri-oval.
What is pretty unique about Brooklands is that it also turned right as well as left in a pretty devilish kink, and also had the start/finish straight not on the main loop.
Ovals provide many options, you can have short exciting races or long endurance races. Road racing lends itself primarily to the latter. You can go to a local oval track and see 4 classes of racing in one night. At a road course that many classes would take a full weekend. Neither one is better but one is a lot easier to do in one night many times a year which is a nice model to Americans. We like hobbies and things to get involved in regularly. Most tracks around the country also try to provide a unique family friendly environment as well.
I always thought of it as being mostly due to geography and infrastructure. In America, because of the huge distances and because many cities were constructed from scratch in a grid pattern, you have predominantly very long straights and the roads are very wide. In Europe on the other hand, population density is much higher, a lot of the inhabited area is uneven, and most cities evolved very organically, so that roads there are usually much narrower and have a lot of corners, almost no straight lines whatsoever. So I think it's easy to see how in America drag and oval racing became popular as they reflect American road infrastructure somewhat, likewise road racing is what naturally evolved in Europe given their more twisty roads. I'd say you can also attribute differences in development of cars to this, with the big American V8 cars which are made to go as fast as possible in a straight line being perfectly suited for their environment, while European cars always had more focus on handling and cornering ability (Broad generalization, I know).
I got pretty lucky. The closest road course to me is Mid Ohio at around two hours, and the next closest is Putnam Park, which for those who don't know, is in literally the opposite direction. For people in Ohio and Indiana, we got pretty lucky, as we not only have those two tracks, but we also have two incredibly famous Ovals (Eldora and IMS) and also Limaland, which isn't a massive track, but is a bit of a fan favorite for some.
A shame we will no longer see new tracks built in the u.s... land is to valuable... people are hell bent on complaining about everything..( thank you internet for that) plus the noise complaints..we will lose more tracks than we will see them built in the future... it's a scary thought
I used to live not far from Magny-Cours and actually, what lead people to leave the track was that not only it was in the middle of nowhere (like really in the dead center of France), the closest city being Nevers, with a population of around 30,000 people. Not what you'd call a metropolis. The closest "big" city was Bourges. And who knows Bourges ? Nobody.
But the biggest factor was that there was absolutely no transports to go there, no motorway, and the closest airport was more than an hour away from Nevers. And that's a second tier local airport ! So it was a traffic nightmare. Also, no hotel, no resorts,...not an attractive destination for Formula One.
At least since a few years ago, there is now a motorway to Magny-Cours (the A77), but too late.
By the way, what do you think of the return of the French GP in 2018, being this time at the Paul-Ricard ?
Cart tried to bring ovalracing to europe in the early 2000s. Many where critical, especially about safety. At the German 500 Zanardi had a pretty big accident, loosing both his legs and he had to be reanimated 7 times. It left a mark on oval racing for europeans
Those moonshiners He is talking about live right here in my backyard... I live in the same city as Benny Parsons, Junior Johnson lives across town, and N. Wilkesboro Speedway within 15 minutes of my house. Sad thing is ever since NASCAR left it's hometown here oval racing has died out here as well, I have to drive a good hour to get to any decent racing.
I attended the F1 race at Magny Cours in 07, the year before the final race there. It was well attended by fans from all over; French, Germans, Spaniards, Dutch, Belgians, Brits, etc. It was FOM's outrageous bill for the privilege of hosting the event which killed it. It got a rep for being in the middle of nowhere because they couldn't get many glamorous VIPs to travel out into the farmland to attend, but attracting race fans was not a problem from what I saw! The campsite was a packed 24/7 disco with drunk Dutch fans on mini motorbikes buzzing about all night 😂
Good video. As a lover of pretty much all motorsports, I don't understand the hatred shown by one group of fans for another type of racing. Racing is racing. I was lucky enough to have quite a robust racing childhood. My father owned a midget when I was really small and a USAC Champ car (silver crown) when I was a teen in the 80's. We lived in Virginia at that time so I was exposed to dirt ovals (small and big track), Nascar (Bristol and Martinsville were fairly close), road racing (we had a friend running IMSA), and drag racing (a friend ran top fuel dragsters). Combined with the emergence of cable tv, this meant we also got the best of Europe with the F1 races and Le Mans as well. Of course Indy is the pinnacle event for our house.I love it all. I'm now fortunate to live in the center of Europe. While I haven't been to an F1 race ($$$$$), I have been following GT series races like the Blancpain series. I've been to Monza a few times for GT races. I love the atmosphere in the paddock (pits for the yankees), but I get frustrated trying to watch the race on the track. Road racing is best viewed on the telly. Oval racing (kinda like baseball) is best seen live. It'd be nice if the die-hard road racers were able to take in an event like the Knoxville Nationals, the Chili Bowl, etc. to see what oval racing (and dirt oval at that) can really be and oval heads should take in a road race to experience the atmosphere. I just don't understand the passionate divisiveness in the racing community. We all have our preferences, but F1 isn't any better (or worse) than Indycar than Nascar than Sprint Cars than GT cars than karts than dragsters....each have their different skills sets and requirements. Racing is racing.
4 and a half hours... I could get most of the way to Zandvoort, Zolder or Spa in that time.
I must be pretty lucky living an hour away from Brands Hatch and Snetterton, an two hours away from Silverstone and Thruxton.
Quite possibly the best video to cover this subject. Thank you for posting this.
I'll add a few things. The Velodromes (board tracks) that they raced motorcycles on were probably the most dangerous racetracks ever made.
I can see the distance thing you're taking about. Within easy driving distance for me, there are 5 Nascar/Indycar ovals, 3 smaller asphalt ovals, and 5-6 dirt tracks. In that same distance, there is only one or two roadcourses.
I'll expand - good analysis, I like your understanding of the history it is some of my favorite subjects. remember that the small country fair tracks were hugely populated for a long time by 4 bangers not V8's, this is true even into Indy car with the turboOffys. V8's worked but didn't have the simpleness or cheap availability for many racing drivers was a 4. midgets etc..
Lots of land in USA , a land owner can put a dusty oval track on his land with much less expense & trouble than here in the uk
One thought: Ovals existed independent of cars, probably even before cars. You don't need a car to race on an oval circuit, banked or not.
'Stupid' is my favourite speed.
in Australia we have much the same issue. tracks are usually in the middle of nowhere. if not all tracks here seemed to start in the middle of nowhere. some circuits like Sandown, eastern creek and the now gone Oran park where engulfed in the suburbs as the city's and towns near by grew. Also because of the distance between circuits motorsport here is very expensive Todo. interestingly enough paved oval never took off. dirt is for ever popular here though.
Dirt is by far the more popular form of oval racing at the local level. My local track was literally the only paved oval in the state until Iowa Speedway if I'm not mistaken, yet there are probably 30 dirt tracks.
Silverstone and Brands Hatch are both within 2 hours of me, Brands is within an hour. And those 2 tracks are within 2 hours of tens of millions of people. So I see your point entirely.
I think cost definitely is a huge issue. It's like 500$ to do a lapping day at a decent track in Ontario like mosport or Calabogie, and a "cheap" F1600 is about 25000, yet I can race for a whole weekend at my local drag strip for about 200 and race for a 5000$ purse
I feel your pain with being that far from Road America. I only ever made it out there once but it was well worth it. I was very excited when they built the NASCAR track in Newton but only made it once there too. I think had dirt racing not been so prominent around where I lived in IA I would have definitely gotten into the road course racing more.
Man, the closest 'real' road course to me is 8 hours away. I drive 4 hours just to autocross.
I live in kershaw south Carolina. There is a road track 5 miles out of town Carolina motorsports Park. Idk if they do professional races there but I'm pretty sure they do and the lemons race comes here too. Also there is a dirt track in the next town over, Lancaster sc 30 mins away. Darlington sc Nascar track is 1 hour away. Then Sumter dirt track which is 45 mins away. Florence sc has a paved oval which is a hour away from me. Charlotte NC is an hour away from me so everything Charlotte motor speedway has to offer is close. Probably about 4 or 5 total dirt tracks within 3 hours away.
A drag strip in pageland sc 20 mins away lugoff sc dragstrip 30 mins away. Idk how many super small dirt go kart tracks. We all race around here I love dirt tracks and Nascar. Its in my blood I don't give a shit what people say about it.
Great observations Matt,I love all forms of racing.Competition, skill and the race teams support apply to all aspects.
I think one of the reasons the American love of oval racing isn't seen in other countries is because most of the great pre-war ovals or ampitheater-style tracks that were popular in Europe (particularly GB) were destroyed during WWII. After the war when racing came back they were forced to use converted airfields or closed-off roads, and when racing real roads became untenable the new Euro tracks tried to recreate the feel of road racing.
I love it when you tell us a story. From now on you shall be known as SimRacing Grandpa. :P
I went to Mosport few times was nice but at Peterborough Speedway Oval can feel the horsepower and side by side excitement . I wanted jump in car right then and go ... love Ovals .
The only thing I would like to add is that dirt oval racing became huge because of the spectator draw and its easy to build. The first dirt ovals were built because moonshiners would argue over who's car was faster. It was hard to race on public roads against one another so farmers would carve put an oval in the back of their field. Then you would have the "fastest" moonshiners show up and race. This was a big draw in areas where there was nothing in the way of entertainment so people would show up to watch. Sometimes from surrounding towns to watch and cheer on their hometown heroes. That's how the dirt small town tracks started then you combine that with the banking from board tracks that were mainly located in populated areas it just grew from there.
My favorite author, Bill Bryson, is from Iowa. You have the same narrative character as he does. Probably no coincidence.
A lot of Midwesterners talk in stories. Really common.
I love it. I'm gonna have to come over one day.
Really glad you focused on the cheap aspect of the sport, everyone can go oval racing in the US. Sure when you start talking about SLM you could start dropping some serious money.
But most people can afford a dirt car and bring it out to their local dirt track, that's one of the biggest draws to oval racing.
Finally a new Ray Romano.....I mean Empty Box video!
Here in Mexico we have it quite worse for tracks in the middle of nowhere, in the entire country there's only 1, only 1 fucking track capable of hosting a proffesional level event, the Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez in Mexico City, that's it, every other racetrack in the country, which are less than 10, only hosts club level events, and because it's in the middle of the city, it's still a long time to get to it, you can be in Mexico City and still have to drive like 3 hours to get to the track, because big city.
Depending on where you live in Mexico, there are a lot of racetracks in the US closer to you than the Hermanos Rodríguez, for example, I lived in Tijuana for a long time, right in the border with San Diego, it's like a 30 hour drive to Mexico City if you don't stop at all, or like 3 days if you drive like a normal person with stops to sleep and everything. The closest professional track that I know of is California Speedway or Auto Club Speedway as is now called, which is like 2 1/2 hours away from Tijuana according to Google, not that much, but it's still on another country.
You just got a Formula E race in Puebla, so that's two tracks... Also Puebla used to host WTCC - and is an oval/roval.
@@jamwil200 But Puebla is a mess of a track. I'm pretty sure that one of the drivers said that he hoped they never came back there because of how horrible it was
@@Starfire_Storm Maybe the drivers didn't like it, the low grip surface wasn't great for them, the infield section is a bit meh, but seeing the cars bottoming out and sliding through the banked turn was good for me. Anyway it's back to Mexico City in Season 8, once it's stopped being a hospital.
@@jamwil200 Yeah, it's back to the Hermanos Rodríguez for next season, hopefully I'll be able to attend the race this time around
I live in Ottumwa, IA and I can't even begin to count how many 3/8ths and 1/2 mile short ovals are around me, its good racing for the most part though. I think one of the most well known dirt ovals ever is our very own Knoxville speedway, im surprised it hasn't wound up in iRacing yet.
Knoxville will almost certainly end up in iRacing. They haven't confirmed anything, but I did come across a tweet from one of the track staff which indicates they had been in contact with iRacing and it seemed to indicate it was quite likely. Not a chance they don't get it, especially with the World of Outlaws backing.
I wonder if there was a shortage in property due to mechanical growth during industrialization, and oval tracks just stuck ever since.
Probably, somewhat. Likely a main reason why most of our road courses that still exist are in the middle of nowhere - farmland is relatively cheap.
Outside of North America there are some good oval tracks.I've been to Coventry and Rockingham and both are quite good but Rockingham is quite dull.
im from the uk and when i played i racing i enjoyed the oval racing far more than circuit (possibly because i hated the understeering mx5 lol)
Hey, the closest road course that I live near is the Ohio Sports Car Course. And it's 12.6 hours away from me in Missouri.
Yeah....
Road America is 13.3hrs
Texas Motor Speedway is 13.5hrs
Road Atlanta is 14.2hrs.
I'm LITERALLY in the middle of nowhere. At least I have the I-44 Speedway in Lebanon MO.
Try being a Canadian in the Pacific Northwest. The closest major tracks to me are all 15+ hours driving (those being Utah Motorsports Campus/Miller Motorsports Park, Laguna Seca, and Sonoma.)
Hell, the nearest drag strip is an hour out of town.
Thunder 55 We'll, Heartland Park in Topeka, KS just restored their road circuit. They've hosted IMSA, ARCA, and NASCAR in the past, so I'm optimistic for the coming years.
Oh, I'm lucky. I'm like 4 hours from Mid-Ohio.
This might be your best video yet Matt.
Nope....one Empty Box goes round the outside, round the outside....but this was a great video. :)
There are definitely places in Europe which are far more in the "middle" (more often outer reaches tbh) of nowhere than Magny-Cours is, but it would be rare for anyone to build a race track (or really much of anything) there at all.
The only real example I can think of would be Arctic Circle Raceway, which is 13 hours from Oslo.
Certainly, but like you mention it's literally nowhere, nowhere and not just proverbially "nowhere" where a decent amount of people live. If you want to go to the nowhere nowhere you also open up the comparison to the western US outside the coasts, where there is about as much absolute nothing as the arctic. There is a reason it was used for testing nukes! lol
Then there's up here in the Pacific Northwest, where the closest decent road course besides Portland (which sadly doesn't get used much anymore) is Sonoma, which is about 12 hours drive away. Ouch.
elfroggo Oregon Raceway Park seems to be good, but again in the middle of nowhere.
In October I was on my way back from Mazda Raceway and cut across from highway 1 towards I-5. I looked around wondering how long it would take to get back to civilization, and minutes later stopped at a street light at the entrance of Sonoma Raceway! It seemed like the weirdest place to put a track.
Then of course Thunderhill is kind of off I-5 somewhere South of Redding. Unfortunate, but I imagine the land is cheaper and noise complaints are unheard of.
elfroggo They are bringing Portland back.
Sprint Car is quite popular down here in Oz. I know Melbourne used to have an tarmac oval.. not sure if it still around. But outside sprint car I've never really heard of oval racing in Australia. I don't really have a problem with people watching oval racing... I just don't really find it entertaining to watch myself. Perhaps I haven't given it the time of day, or maybe it's just like Vegemite.. if you haven't grown up eating there's a high chance you wont like it.
Two questions..
1. how come they only go left and not right?
2. Have you seen the Renmark Dingy derby? because it's the future of racing as we know it...watch a clip on it and you'll see its appeal and how easy a world series would be to set up. :P
Very interesting to see where US fans are coming from, thanks for the video!
Hey Empty Box, I love these motorsports-history videos! Could you maybe do one on CART and Indycar, because I as a non-american would like to know about the history of the two series. And also I'd be really interested what kind of changes you would make to Formula 1 in order to make it more attractive again.
Since the entire track can be seen from most spectator seats if not all, it's very convenient as a spectator sport. Kind of how American Football has tons of breaks in the action that's used to make it more of a show, with cheerleader routines and commercials.
I've been to the Le Mans 24 hours race several times now, and while I prefer to watch racing on more complex tracks, I can definitely see the appeal in oval track racing.
Football doesn't have the breaks in the action to make it more of a show, it has the breaks to make more of the Benjamins. Or in other words.... MONEY. lotsa lotsa lotsa lotsa money.
I drive 2.5hrs half a dozen times a year or more to go to Road America, and I live in WI. From my point of view at the track, which is neither official or all-encompassing, of the big three series at RA (Indycar, IMSA, Xfinity) Indycar was by far the most popular and IMSA was pretty darn close to the same crowd as Xfinity. (granted its the B-series of Nascar, not the big boys, but still... And for the record, Nascar drivers don't have any clue how to drive a road course.)
Hey Matt, would you consider Brainerd being closer than Road America (I'm from Des Moines :P). I've seen that they have hosted Xfinity events. I've only been there once and can say that there is very little in the way of spectator areas that can see multiple parts of the track, but apparently they host drags there all the time on a national level, so the track has some following. Conversely, on the oval side, within a 6 hour drive there is Chicagoland, Kansas, Iowa Speedway, and Indianapolis (if you speed), and possibly Michigan. I think you hit the nail on the head with this video, there is a lot of truth here.
I believe Brainerd is closer, but they haven't really hosted anything of note for a while AFAIK, road racing wise.
Any fan of racing respects all types and forms of racing.
Hi from England
The first purpose built race track was Brooklands and it was designed as an oval because dog racing tracks and horse racing tracks are oval, so when a track was designed for car racing it was designed as an oval it's as simple as that. High speed raced were run on a 2km straight track, with a standing kilometre time and a 1 kilometre to 2 kilometre time.
The cost and other factors that you are talking about are people trying to make a theory fit after the fact.
I think its due to the fact anyone can win. I'm an f1 fan but I am flirting with nascar and Indy. I do watch a few NASCAR events every know and then and every time there's a battle at the end of the race for the win. I just love it!
What about closed city street circuits? IMSA back in the GTP and GTO days had a lot of them.
I think I mentioned it in the video, it was in my script at least. (lol) But yes, building large facilities capable of hosting "proper" pro level races was just too expensive and too unsustainable, so we never built them. Instead it basically ended up being the other way around with bringing the track to the people, which is what street circuits are and why they are either very successful or fail instantly.
Great video Matt. Where are you located in Iowa? I'm in Des Moines. :)
Cedar Rapids
have either one of you been to the boone super nationals
dirt track racing started with racing model Ts on old horse tracks and the evolved the cars into a primitive super modified being that there was no banking in the turns they needed the wing for down force than from then on as the cars continued to evolve as did the tracks and with banking came wingless sprintcars and the larger chassis held the larger motors for the winged sprintcars who still needed the down force to match the horsepower output and technically NASCAR started on dirt/sand
this race is like a drift tandem simulator :D