'75 Triumph Trident T160 - Smoking Engine Sorted!!!
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- Опубліковано 22 кві 2024
- I rebuilt the engine of this Triumph Trident T160 recently and although it ran well, the engine was smoking badly. The general consensus was that the piston rings hadn't bedded in properly (as is sometimes the case with Tridents especially) and they would require replacing and possibly the barrels re-honed. However, having done all that and reassembled the engine (again) the damn thing was still smoking! I ran the engine with the oil feed to the rockers disconnected and the smoking stopped, so I suspected a problem with the cylinder head - maybe the new valve guides weren't fitted properly or the drain holes next to them were blocked? Removal of the head and valves revealed the problem immediately - the valve guides were loose in the head! Oil would have been flowing past them and into the combustion chambers at quite a rate! Very glad that the problem has now at least been identified after much work, much angst and many sleepless nights!
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I’m not an engineer, or a fitter and turner, or even a mechanic, but at 67, and having grown up on Triumphs of the 1970’s, I learned a LOT very quickly, with my first bike, which was actually a 1969 Trident that came with a genuine factory workshop manual. This was in 1975, in New Zealand, and as you can imagine, things were starting to go sideways with Trumpy’s as far as getting parts for BSA’s, Triumphs, and Nortons, etc.
A friend of my dad’s who was once a dispatch rider in the British Army was a great help in teaching me how to ride the thing and how to work on it.
Having said all that, I simply cannot believe that any engineering shop did THAT and let it go out the door! I’ve rebuilt a few bikes from the ground up over the years and I’m simply gobsmacked at how inept you have to be to achieve results like this!
I’m currently rebuilding a ’74 American model Trident for a friend of mine and came to watch this video to pick up whatever I can (which is my habitual way of doing things; we can always learn new things if we’re open to learning) but this wasn’t something I expected!
That is absolutely terrible. Appalling work! When I built my T150, I was advised to supply the biggest oversize valve guides available, and my then chosen machine shop would machine them to size. That’s because there was no guarantee that all the holes for the guides would be all the same size. I am glad that you found the problem.
I’ve had this happen to me many years ago by a local firm where the oil was dripping out of the exhaust port!! Glad you’re on your way to sorting it out , all the best 👍
I would definitely stop calling them "Engineers". LOL. It is so hard to find people who do good work anymore. Unbelievable that they did this type of work.
Engineers!!! You're very generous.
Butchers
Chris, Please check that the clearance of the valve to the valve guide internal bore is not excessive. This can cause oil burn especially on the inlet side (when oil is sucked up the valve guides by the inlet manifold suction pressure).
Also be aware that your exhaust system will now have oil residue in it! It will take a couple of hours of hard riding to clear it all!
Thanks. New valves and new guides, plus valve stem oil seals, so it should be okay. 👍
Let him without sin.. speak to them and try to discuss what went wrong and why. Tell them your confidence in them has taken a huge beating over this and other previous jobs.
How they respond is a measure of their integrity, you still have the ultimate say in what happens even if it costs you more money plenty of machine shops can do what is basically a fairly easy rectification
40 years ago I had same problem on my t150
Good work Chris, glad you finally got the the bottom of this. I guess the moving guides will have worn the holes in the head slightly oval so might be a good idea to get them reamed true before fitting oversize guides.
i had a rocket three that had a loose guide that had some weird iron guide fitted to try and fix it . The hole was completely wallowed out had to get a custom guide made to fit the oversize hole , I think you need to find a shop that does quality work and vacuum test the valves when assembled
Always a relief to find the problem that is diabolical. Look forward to the next update 👍
Hope you are fully recovered, Prof Higgins! It is always a relief to find the source of the problem& also the problem didn’t come about because of something you did or didn’t do. I don’t think you will have any trust in that company again.
Yes, very relieved to know it wasn't anything I'd done. 👍👍👍
3:42 if they touched those guides Chris, do not make excuses for them. They are butchers, not engineers
Yes, that's poor. Hard to be sure from the video but the honing doesn't look right either.
Amazed that the guide didn’t spin when it was honed or reamed to size
That is disgusting, when i was in the trade, if i had let that out of the door i would have been down the road. It is not rocket science.
You are extremely extremely lucky that it did not come out during operation. Once an exhaust valve guide of my middle cylinder came out during a ride and it completely destroyed my head. At the end I send it to Paul Curran so he could use it for demonstration purposes 😀
Wow! That sounds horrendous! At least that's one positive I can take from the experience - the head is still in one piece.
I had it on a T150 forty years ago
Hammering out guides is the problem - aluminium has been removed in the process. Far better to drill out the guides until they collapse .
I agree
Plus the carbon deposits on the guide can rip the valve guide hole up on its way out@@conrod7
How does a valve guide 'come out'? How would it get past the spring cap? At worst, it would move up and down with the valve action and gradually 'bell' its bore within the cylinder head.
I am happy that you have found the problem, but completely dumbfounded, that is disgusting workmanship.
I don’t if it’s the camera, but the centre cylinder does look very shiny, you can see a small amount of honing on it, but to me it doesn’t look that much for a fresh cut.
I think it's just the camera, in real life it's fine. 👍
@@Chris.rooke150 I thought the cross hatching looked rather coarse, especially for what is quite a small bore.
It's a bit of a Dark Art, but on older bikes you use a coarser hone than on newer machines - the cast iron rings are designed to cut into the bores.
Unbelievable. I am positive that is the problem. It is hard to find good trades people now days.
Because people don't want to pay Precision engineers their true value, I speak from hard experience... sadly.
@@Brit_Toolmaker So what you are saying is if people don't want to pay for the value of Precision engineers work, then poor-quality work is acceptable, why do the repairs if people won't pay what you are worth. That's what I do.
@@wlingrell I run my own Precision engineering business employing staff, paying good wages for highly skilled toolmakers, I run into this problem on a daily basis in my day to day work. I'm unable to lower my standards and equally I won't lower my prices. I make many of my own engine parts for my own British bikes, but would never do so commercially as I know people wouldn't be willing to pay what it costs with the investment in machinery. That's my experience.
Who the hell did that? An apprentice?
Oversize guides required5 thou!!!!!! Different engineering shop required!
I agree but imho Chris should take the head to the people who are responsible for this mess and see what they say. In terms of man hours, this has cost a small fortune. I’m interested to hear what they have to say for themselves
Glad you have found the culprit, Chris. I'm guessing those guides appeared tight within the head when you initially re-assembled the top end - ie there was an interference fit. Obviously not enough of an interference fit though. Once the head had warmed up, those guides became free to move and, fortunately, you didn't put many miles on the bike after realising there was a smoking problem. In those few miles, however, the moving guides have created a condition whereby 'they are not even finger-tight' in the head. From having a marginal interference fit to being loose in a stone cold head within a few short miles of running implies the damage that could have been caused over time.
Thanks for naming and shaming the company that caused all this grief. I'm sure you will be entrusting any future work to a more reputable engineering company.
Exactly that regarding the valve guides - they were tight in the head when I received it, but clearly not tight enough! As you say, at least we found the problem before major damage occurred. 👍
Had the same problem with my new in 67 T100R. Also had a bad cam plate in the trans. Also broke a tappet guide. Tappet jammed in cam. Wost new machine I ever had
Had a stripped thread on a head stud on my (then new) 1969 BSA A65L. I think ours were problems indicative of the the British motorcycle industry at the time. Little wonder it was brought to its knees.
That is commonly called s--t 8:10 work anything else he has done will need to be done again.
It was always going to be the guides in my opinion.
or stem seals
p.s. I see they've already been fitted to this engine!
Sad to say, I've had equally shit work done at more than one place and been given short shrift when complaining. One cretin actually labelled me 'eccentric'. I thought to myself at the time that if I'm seen as being eccentric, my solicitor would be more than happy to give a far more eccentric performance in court on my behalf. The aforementioned cretin chickened out and gave me a fat wad of cash instead, along with a rather weak, 'So who'll do the work for you now ?' Let's put it this way, Sooty would be higher up on the list, plus he's mute, with no back talk !
That is bad , and disappointing to find , someone needs to start measuring.
Somebody with average skills and the manuals can do a better job than a bad shop. They are always in a hurry and employ the wrong people.
Who did the work?
SES. Sheffield Engineering Services
If you just want to fix it, go to T&L or someone equally reputable. Or get a report from a qualified motor engineer & go the legal route, if you want all the nausea that will go with that.
If the so called engineer thought that the interference fit for the guides was acceptable then I would say go buy a set of Zeus charts, which have tables of interference fits. He may have been working for 40 years but that does not make this sort of error acceptable. To get one guide bore wrong was probably a mistake, but four loose ones is just shoddy workmanship and smacks of the phrase oh that will do. I would post his company name so as to let other people know not to use him.
Utterly appalling job,
No wonder oil is getting into the combustion chamber.
Let’s see what they can do to rectify their foul up.
Come on then...name and shame ????
Already done. SES - Sheffield Engine Services. 😏
Looks like the first year apprentice was on the job