Let us put this on the record: on Aug 20, 2016 Stefan declared the tramming to be "perfect". It wasn't "pretty good" or "not bad" ... it was "perfect". I never thought that I would see the day, but there it was: perfect. This can only mean one thing - that your skill has reached the limits of your measuring tools and you need more precise ones. Laser interferometer, maybe.
He's not been shy about admitting how OCD he is!Extraordinarily talented young man. What is even more impressive is that he's making these videos in English, which is not his native language, for which all us English speakers should appreciate.
Wow, that epoxy probably saved about 100 hours or more of disassembly, hand scraping, and reassembly and maybe more shimming. What a good solution to a universal problem! Thanks for sharing! :)
Stephan, I served my Apprenticeship in England in the fifties and spent many, many hours scraping machine beds by hand. We did not have powered scrapers. How I wish we had could have used that epoxy method to true up surfaces. Great video. Thanks.
after all this years i still think a "calibrated right arm" is one of the best tools in the shop! was checking this video again when aligning my mill so helpful! thanks again stefan.
I looked through a few dozen comments and didn't see anyone else mention this, so for those who are interested the foam rope stuff is called backer rod, and you can get it at most any home improvement store in the same section as weather stripping. Note that it comes in many different diameters, so figure out ahead of time what size you need.
Thanks for the detailed work through Stefan. I will follow suit when I fill my machine with epoxy granite. I also intend to install longer bolts and machined spacer blocks to gain the correct shank stretch. This will keep the bolted joint stable. The will be set by degrees of rotation as per standard heavy equipment practice. I will have the entire machine apart so will try and address the issues raised here. Hopefully I will get to post video of the job. I want to give back to the community I learn so much from.
I have a similar mill, and following your video did this but with modified technique. I elevated the column and put an aluminum shim in the middle of the front (between the ways, and with the support removed, used the back two bolts in tension to tram the mill before injecting the epoxy. (This a 3-point location of the column.) I set it up for a final gap of 0.060-0.080" (1.5-2mm). This gave me unlimited time to perfect the tram. The problem is filling the narrow space completely. Using tape to hold the epoxy did not work well, as the epoxy attacked the tape's adhesive and is very runny, about like honey. To anyone else trying this method, I suggest making a dam of modeling clay around the exterior hold in the epoxy. I have not taken it apart, but i did wax both mating surfaces and the bolts so in theory the epoxy should be removable. I used about 80% of a 100g kit of Diamant 310Fl, purchased in the US from Devitt Machinery Co., www.moglice.com. If you want to try this, I can give more detail at craig.k7cej@gmail.com.
I have an ancient Rong Fu mill-drill with a circular center column. I was never able to successfully tramm it using shims. I mean I worked on it for months. I ended up replacing the four bolts holding the column to the base with special bolts of my own make. Made four special screws from tool steel. The "down" end screws into the base and is locked down with a lock nut. The "up" end was cut with fine threads with locking nuts above and below the column. Tramming is done by adjusting the "up" side locking nuts. It works and the tramm job lasts until I loosen the head and crank it up or down the central column (i.e. usually minutes). For parts that don't require the best tramm job, I just run the machine in it's current tramm state. When I need to get serious, something else has to be done. Had to make a set of adjustable parallels. Put a set screw into each end of each parallel and then use a dial indicator to set the parallels. So long as the work piece is perpendicular to the spindle center line, everything should be fine. I mean it doesn't really matter whether you tramm the mill or tramm the work piece to the mill. Sure wish I had a Bridgeport. Junk is tiresome and time consuming.
Just one rather critical aspect needs to be mentioned here. I observed a top flight precision machinist do this exact same procedure. However, he first seperated the head from the pedestal and waxed both surfaces with a very high grade wax. Then if you ever need to separate the two, or reclaibrate, they come apart with ease.
This is actually quite similar to how they fix big/medium ship engines. They align the large motor using threaded rods and pour a special epoxy mix along the foundation. So this should be more than good for a small milling machine :-) great videos by the way, love your sense of detail. Thanks
many new machines are built using this method such as clausuig lathes and way surfaces are made with this Moglice in U.S. Your methods are spot on. they make many viscosties of this epoxy for use in vertical and horizontal applications. Installing brass set screws (grub screws)in the column base for the purpose of tramming makes it a bit easier. Nice video on how to tram a column on a RF45 type mill.
You are correct about mating surfaces, they do something similar when mating very large turbine components to one another. Really appreciated you sharing this!
Thanks for showing this in action! Ever since I watched your video about the modifications you made to your lathe I have wondered about this category of products.
Another great video! Watching the real time clip of you cranking up the head tells me that your gas springs, which counter balance the weight of the head, really reduce the effort and time to raise the head up. I don't have these and I doubt I could raise and lower my head enough times during the 50 minute pot life to achive good alignment. When I shimmed my column I used a a 1/10 dti against a angle block but after just a few cranks up and down my 70+ year old shoulder gave out and had to take a break. I have since replaced the crank with a surplus gear motor but it still moves the head up too slowly. I hope that by adding gas springs I can install a faster gear motor and replace the shims with filled epoxy as you did so expertly.
If anyone wanted a quick and dirty assist just for the purposes of speeding up precision tramming (and saving wearing out body parts), perhaps they could rig a cord over a pulley from a ceiling joist to a counterweight.
you don't have to worry - it will be somewhat fluid and tacky in this 50 minutes, thereafter you have about 20 hours where it goes from tacky to harder. after some 6-7 hours it will be soft enough to be cut with a sharp kniife or chisel, so you may clean it upl Fully hardened/cured it will be only after a week or even more time.
The trick is to prepare. Using the masking tape on the bottom edge not just to mask it off, but to create a dam for the resin. This would have saved Stefan a few nerve wrecking minutes. Having the rest of your equipment ready and tested for the tramming is also crucial and I am sure Stefan had his dial indicator and square ready before mixing anything.
I got a Prazi mill where I had to make a base for it. I've been spending the last year trying to figure out how to tram my hack. I came up with five solutions, but none made me feel good. This one did. I now see that the modifications I need to make will work over time. Thanks.
Great vid brother. I too have shims in mine th8s is a great way to solve that problem I think a few test runs to see how quickly you can tram it in will help people no end before they apply the product give you some indication of how quickly you can do the job first. Take care lee.
Stefan, great vid! Am only part way through but need to write this lest I forget. One of the ways you can effectively increase the pot life of epoxy is to cool it down. Not sure how this would work with your application but turning your air conditioner on "high" comes to mind. Possibly chilling your machine column mating surfaces. Something like that. Not to the point that it sweats, but cooler is better if you're looking to longer times. Now back to the vid!
Thanks for the great video Stefan. I am also covering these ideas and techniques on my g0704 videos. Along with how to make some of your own epoxy fillers for cavity filling, mating surfaces, and finishing materials. All for the purpose of dampening vibration, surface correction and so. Thanks again for helping others to become aware of these techniques.
Stefan, did you do anything to prevent the epoxy from running into the screw threads? I'd be afraid if something went wrong with the shimming, that it would be permanent -since in the beginning of the video you said you cannot machine the cured epoxy.
We do a lot of chocking of marine gearboxes and engines with epoxy. Also German made by "Springer" this type is epocast. Our procedure is indeed greasing the bolts before pouring the resin, if we dont do that, the epoxy can break when tightening the bolts after the resin cured.
I am really impressed. I will add to your list of products that maybe do the same thing the *Moglice* product. No idea how it's pronounced; believe it's Swedish origin. Saw it used in a lathe restoration project to rebuild worn ways. In the US there is also Turcite, that is mostly for worn ways on lathes. Bravo Stefan!
Gday Stefan, this is really interesting, I don’t think I would be confident to do my round column mill with a 50min window, if it was a 5hr window I think I would have half a chance, thank you for sharing, it was very interesting, thanks take care, Matty
That was an ingenious use of copper wire. I never thought of that. Im curious to know why you chose to do the initial tramming using the square rather than just sweeping it in right off the table. Excellent video as always.
Sweeping the table tells you your spindle is square with the table, but your column can still be pretty out. So when you rise or lower the headstock, X and Y will vary. To square the column you have to check it moving the headstock up and down with a precission square or master cylinder, just like Stefan did.
+EmperorDevilhunter Thank you for the reply. Ok I see what you mean. Im used to machines that you raise or lower the table, not the head. So if he gets the column perfectly square to the table and afterwards finds that the spindle is out of tram, is there a way to adjust that on that machine?
Fred Geitner I have a similar machine and most of them you can rotate the head 90º left and right, so that's not a problem. The real problem is front and back, if your spindle is out there you may need to shim/epoxy fill/scrape between the headstock and the Z axis carriadge
Learned something again. I would have glued (with classic epoxy) the 4 copper wires on the surfaces on forehand, so one is sure they are not pushed aside by the metallic epoxy that is flowing out from between the surfaces.
Stefan, would it be possible to tram it in with just the copper wire shims and then inject the epoxy? I was thinking maybe you could drill a couple of holes in the mounting flange so that you could pour or inject the epoxy there and let it spread out into the ~1mm gap. maybe the viscosity is too high though... I just think I would be too worried about the pot life to do this method unless it was trammed before mixing the epoxy.
Wunderbar! That will be one of my winter projects. The best I could get was .0005" on the Y using shims, its not bad but its not perfect. This video will be a great help Stephan, Fin Danke
Have you ever considered applying this technique with DWH epoxy between the connection of the Z axis carriage and head of the mill? I am not sure if DWH could be applied into a vertical joint such as the joint between Z axis carriage and head, but if it could then it seems like it might be a nice solution to improve this connection and reduce tool vibration... I guess you could coat one of the mating surfaces with a releasing agent if you still wanted the ability to rotate the mills head for angled cutting operations. I appreciate your insight on this concept. Cheers and keep up the great work! Eric
Guten Tag, frage: wo kann ich diesen Fühlhebelmessuhrhalter kaufen für die Befestigung an der Spindel? Oder wie heisst dieser, damit ich ihn im Google finden kann? Bin am Projekt dran meine Kami 350er auf cnc umzubauen. Alle Schwalbenschwänze habe ich schleifen lassen und habe bereits eingeschabt, jedoch werde ich die Z Säule auch mit Epoxi einbetten. Haben Sie eigentlich eine Kontaktfläche mit Trennmittel behandelt, oder haben Sie Ihre Säule für die Ewigkeit verklebt?
Wow, I learned something new! Every day's a skill day on your channel. I have an 'XJ25' Chinese bench top MT3 mill that I may have to adjust so this might be useful stuff. Thanks for sharing.
Nice to see work of this nature.The working time of most epoxy is considerably longer than the pot life. What effect does having voids fore and aft at the base have on what is trying to be achieved here? Also Devcon was used on mating surfaces on cranes swing circle bearings. If one considers cranes range from 10 tons to over 300 tons something like Devcon should work on a mills base.
Thank you! I will use this to fix a problem with my lathe tailstock. By the way, itchy nose is an occupational hazard for surgeons during an operation. A friendly nurse will scratch, within reason.
The foam rope is called "backer rod" in the states. It comes in many different sizes and is used for caulking. Mostly on brick or block buildings where a control or expansion joint is called for. I use steel epoxy to bed the receiver in the stocks of my target rifles and it works great. You can also glue them in with it. To remove, use heat. I don't think the stuff I use will kill fish...... lol That should make your machine purr like a kitten. Nice mod. Thanks for the videos!
Yea I watched this when it came out I was hoping you would do more of this epoxy stuff. As I have watched them build machinery bases etc with this type of material. But your very descriptive and a great source.
hi。may i know the exact model number of the metal-filled resin compounds that you use。as in the company website。 there are several types for the selection。。
Thanks for this. I had been wanting to do this to my mill for a while, I am just not keen on gluing the column to the base. I believe the proper way to do this is to coat one surface with a release agent like wax, not sure how that works with your product. I suspect that simple clear packing tape would also work. The column + headstock on my mill weighs upwards 300kG, so not a trivial thing to lift in a gentle controlled manner. The term we use for this on this side of the pond is "bedding." Large machines get leveled on jack screws, then a special grout is poured under the machine. Columns are also bedded using expoxies or machine grout. BTW, grout is the word for the "chalk" you described. Chalk is the white sticks used by teachers for writing on chalk boards :)
Yes, normaly you put a release agent on one side - But if you dont intend to take them apart every week thats not necessary. The bond between the parts can be broken very easy and the remaining material can be chiseled off. Thanks for the correct term, I never heard "bedding" before, but makes sense :D
Hello Stefan great job I learn a lot myself thank you. I have question when you check your trim at the end off levelling process you have measured bottom plain with gauge block and swivel indicator. But that gives you readout only when column is completely lowered. Would it make sense to bring it in 100mm up and do the same to find if there is any tilt on travel.(possibly repeat on another 100mm increment) I don't own mill yet I am on gathering knowledge stage ( rebuilding mini Chinese wonder I will need mill soon) so can you clarify that for me please.
Given the limited working time of the epoxy you need to move quite quickly in tramming the head to the table. Almost no time to troubleshoot problems or waste time correcting a mistake I’m wondering whether tramming the head ‘dry’ with some annealed copper wire then lifting the column slightly to inject the epoxy would buy time in the tramming process. The dry tramming should get the head close to its final position then when the epoxy is applied and the column is reset on the base it (hopefully) is only a few adjustments to get it back into position. When lifting the column after the dry fit the copper wire would have to be secured close to its position which might be achieved if the wire was long enough to extended out from the mating surfaces. I love the idea of epoxying the column to the base but it strikes me that it’s a one-shot-deal. Either you get it right or you’re in trouble.
Enjoyed your video, I have the 30 model, I must check to see what the run out is, it is only a few weeks in my workshop andstill waiting on NT30 collet chuck. Did you mention the run out prior to the epoxy... If mine is out, I now know what to do, thank you. Very impressed with 0, 0, 0, 0. over a 200mm dia.
Awsome work Stefan, just this week I have been thinking on traming my column because I'm tired of imprecision every time I change the tool lengh (since is not square, X and Y vary). I think it's possible to use the copper rod method without the epoxy on there, just to take all the time you need. Then create a vacum bag around the atachment and inject the epoxy, like is made in the aerospace industry with composites. This will force the epoxy to get into every gap and full fill everything. By the way I still have to buy the precission sqare, is yours DIN 875 type 0, I or II? I was thinking maybe type I was enough
I didn't quite see. It looked like the epoxy was applied to the sides of the column? Not in the front and back of the column? What about around the screws? Was the amount of epoxy not enoguht to squeeze down there and be a problem?
Yes! This is my primary question/concern about using this method, what about when you need to ‘re-do’ it? Reference was made to adhesive properties, so that cuts both ways-so to speak. Seems like there must be a way to remove and re-do, but I’m not sure how. I wouldn’t really like to take a torch to the joint. But without jack screws or some other method, how to separate for “next time?”
I very much hope the take-aways of our foreign guests here include some fine examples of German humor. 4:42 Yes, it exists, and there is even the occasional deadpanning. Also 10:39 the sudden appearance of black, Strangelovian gloves. God, HOW did Kubrick never get an Oscar?! And where did I put my pills?
Here in the U.S. we use a similar epoxy to set heavy machinery onto foundations onboard navy ships. A good example is the propeller shaft bearings that must be perfectly aligned. The stuff is called "chockfast orange"
Thanks for this very helpful video. I have the same job vaiting for me. 10 years ago I bought the Chinese rotatable column Drill/Mill. Since then I redid the gear box several time bough omelet rebuild parts and a fixed column with its base. I am sure I'll have to do the same epoxy shimming when I'll have the time to rebuild, may be never. Thanks for the help.
Hi Stefan. From my point of view this video could not have been posted at a better time, because having seen your video some months ago when you bought your RF45 clone, I decided that a BP really would be too big for my tiny shop and so I thought if it's good enough for you, then it's certainly good enough for me. I was intrigued when in your original video you said that you were NOT going to shim the column, and now I know the alternative method. My RF45 is the Warco variety which is fairly common in the UK, but essentially identical to yours. So, I have a couple of questions. I understand the tramming for the x and y axes, but you didn't mention dealing with any possible rotation of the column. When I set my RF45 up literally 3 days ago I had to correct for this issue. It wasn't difficult, but it obviously couldn't just be bolted down and that's that. The other question is your gas struts to take some of the head load. What length are they, and how much force do they apply? I saw another YT video about an RF45 where the guy mounted counter balance weights, but I must say I like the gas struts idea more. Thanks in advance for any advice. Regards Mark in the UK
Glad it is usefull for you :) As for the rotation of the Z-Axis, that only matters if you want to do accurate work with the head of the mill tilted. For the gas struts look here: gtwr.de/shop/pro_optimum_mb4/gassprings.html I thought about a counterweight too, but having 70kg of steel hanging at the back of the mill was nothing I was looking for.
Is there some property of a compressible copper shim that makes it superior to lead? E.g. work hardening serves well once in place and/or lead is too soft? Im considering using lead for a similar project where I need a little more surface area of compressed material. Thanks.
Hi, I'm about to do the same with a custom machine frame for a small Taig CNC mill that will have 4 set screws for leveling next to the 4 clamping screws on the connection between the base and the column. Do you have to keep the epoxy away from the threads of the clamping or leveling screws? Thank you. Edit: I saw on your later videos of your big VMC you had setscrew provisions for leveling. That's what I have. Are you going to put something like an O-ring around the leveling screws and/or the clamping screws on the big VMC when you level it? (I guess you already did level it...). Or did you put wax or oil on the threads before injecting the epoxy?
1/3 E means it is like a perfect shaped Aluminum shim then. Epoxies have become the go to over the last 20yrs for machine tools rather than the labor and tools required to achieve precison metal to metal fits. I believe many manufacturers now use epoxy way systems from new for better performance.
In the US I have had good results using JB Weld epoxy to repair eroded cylinder aluminum heads, with no sign on deterioration after numerous years. This is on the water jacket between cylinders and under head gasket, not in combustion chambers. I expect you could put waxed paper between the mating parts to allow nondestructive disassembly. You might also want to put some sort of indexing pins or roll pins around two of the studs to ensure exact location. Do not glue the pins, however! Reynolds also makes a kitchen aluminum foil with a teflon coating on one side if you do not want paper. You might also want to machine a couple reliefs on opposing edges to pry the column loose if needed.
I am aware of JB weld and used it on my lathe to level out the tailstock, but on the millI didnt want to take chances and used what the industrie uses for the purpose :) Btw, seperating parts with the DHW Epoxy in between is not a problem it is not realy a "glue", it pops off the surface quite easy.
great vidio, i have shims in my machine, need to do this process. i like the copper wire crush gauge that certainly make this task posible. thank for info, joel
Hi Stefan, there is one thing that twists my brain here: how did you rule out that in the final measurement on the table an out-of-tram-head did not equal out an opposite-out-of-tram Z column? Just for exaggeration assume your column was actually 10° out of tram to the left and the head was rotated 10° in the other direction. That would equal out the error when measuring. I see that this would need a lot of coincidence especially with having all around all zero but i cannot shake the feeling that the tram of the head itself somehow needs to be figured into all of this but for the life of me I cannot come up with the "how". Can you help here?
Hallo Stefan, Gibt es dieses Video auch in Deutscher Sprache ? PS. Ebenfalls bin ich auf der Suche nach einem Montage Video von einer 3 Achs Digitalanzeige von Sino. Ich wäre Dir sehr dankbar wenn Du mir diesbezüglich einen Rat geben könntest. Gruß Karl
Im wondering how handy is this epoxy if for any reason you want to take of the column from the base ? I mean that propably you will have to tram and fill again with this liquid because the old one will brake . If one of the two mating surfaces waxed so the epoxy stick to one and not to both of them will this be a solution?
If you mask off the outside of the column with tape, cleaning up any of the epoxy that leaks out from under the column will be easier. Just peal off the tape after it cures. I wonder if a magnet would hold the epoxy in place to prevent it from flowing out? Beautiful work, it is an excellent presentation.
Just found your channel through NyCNC and I have the same exact milling machine! How did you set up the gas spring to help with raising and lowering the head? I would love to see a video about it... Thanks!! 👍
Interesting method. I have HBM Profi 45, which frame and table seems pretty much identical. 50um is the best I can do what comes to difference between front and back part of the table. I'm very much tempted to try this, but I have some problems I need to sort out before doing so. First, the angle of my table changes along the cross-feed. It's understandably drooping down in frontmost position, when rails have some overhang, but also backside is lifting up when closing the backmost position. It can easily been seen when using precision level. Another problem is, that head tilt changes along the height. It seems column is flexing more, the higher the head is. Alignment change 50um with relatively light push from the head. Of course it doesn't correct the error, since it affect on both sides, front and back. Still I want to test does it help if I put adjustable bar from the top of the column to my solid stone wall. I have tried to play with the tilt by shimming the bottom of my machine against the milling table but it seems adjustment is not enough. I first put it on three aluminium bars, trying to find positions where rails don't bind and there are minimal twist. Then I level my table and put large number of aluminium wedges under my machine, trying to keep the force as equal as possible, same time trying to minimize remaining twist and tilt errors. It would be interesting to know how straight other Chinese machines are and what people have done to make them better. I suspect mine was dropped during shipping since crate was crushed under the machine and some parts have gone through the plywood. The courier didn't admit it was them.
Let us put this on the record: on Aug 20, 2016 Stefan declared the tramming to be "perfect". It wasn't "pretty good" or "not bad" ... it was "perfect". I never thought that I would see the day, but there it was: perfect.
This can only mean one thing - that your skill has reached the limits of your measuring tools and you need more precise ones. Laser interferometer, maybe.
Yeah...You often hear Stefan saying how everything is crooked, right before he dials in something within 0.002mm!
He's not been shy about admitting how OCD he is!Extraordinarily talented young man. What is even more impressive is that he's making these videos in English, which is not his native language, for which all us English speakers should appreciate.
I can only imagine what a laser interferometer would do to his OCD
The next level op precise is named gotteswinter level
Dude!!! You nailed it!!!
Wow, that epoxy probably saved about 100 hours or more of disassembly, hand scraping, and reassembly and maybe more shimming.
What a good solution to a universal problem!
Thanks for sharing! :)
Using your calibrated arm to tighten bolts is valid only if you remember to say "click" when you are at the correct torque.
Aha!
My knees go click when I squat down to pick something up so does that mean I need to recalibrate them?
all of my internet points to you, my friend
Rrrrerrrrrreeeeeeaaaa*CLICK!*
@@SupraSmart68 nah! All it means is that you have twisted ( torqued) your knees enough for that day ! lol
Stephan, I served my Apprenticeship in England in the fifties and spent many, many hours scraping machine beds by hand. We did not have powered scrapers. How I wish we had could have used that epoxy method to true up surfaces. Great video. Thanks.
after all this years i still think a "calibrated right arm" is one of the best tools in the shop! was checking this video again when aligning my mill so helpful! thanks again stefan.
Excellent execution as always Stefan and great video coverage! That epoxy is handy stuff for machine alignment and rebuilding.
ATB, Robin
I looked through a few dozen comments and didn't see anyone else mention this, so for those who are interested the foam rope stuff is called backer rod, and you can get it at most any home improvement store in the same section as weather stripping. Note that it comes in many different diameters, so figure out ahead of time what size you need.
Thanks buddy I was thinking where to get this, cheers.
this is the best description, on how to use this epoxy I have seen so far. Thank you
You shouldn't swallow this. You might swallow an exclamation mark. A fish might drown! :)
LOL, awesome video Stefan!
Thanks for the detailed work through Stefan. I will follow suit when I fill my machine with epoxy granite. I also intend to install longer bolts and machined spacer blocks to gain the correct shank stretch. This will keep the bolted joint stable. The will be set by degrees of rotation as per standard heavy equipment practice. I will have the entire machine apart so will try and address the issues raised here. Hopefully I will get to post video of the job. I want to give back to the community I learn so much from.
Interessant! Kannte ich noch nicht. Man lernt immer wieder etwas dazu (auch, wenn es schon ein paar Jahre her ist). Danke!
I have a similar mill, and following your video did this but with modified technique. I elevated the column and put an aluminum shim in the middle of the front (between the ways, and with the support removed, used the back two bolts in tension to tram the mill before injecting the epoxy. (This a 3-point location of the column.) I set it up for a final gap of 0.060-0.080" (1.5-2mm). This gave me unlimited time to perfect the tram. The problem is filling the narrow space completely. Using tape to hold the epoxy did not work well, as the epoxy attacked the tape's adhesive and is very runny, about like honey. To anyone else trying this method, I suggest making a dam of modeling clay around the exterior hold in the epoxy.
I have not taken it apart, but i did wax both mating surfaces and the bolts so in theory the epoxy should be removable. I used about 80% of a 100g kit of Diamant 310Fl, purchased in the US from Devitt Machinery Co., www.moglice.com. If you want to try this, I can give more detail at craig.k7cej@gmail.com.
Sending you an email in a few minutes. Thanks!
Stefan - you tightened the Socket Head Cap Screws (SHCS) down to the "German Torque Spec" -- "Guten Tight" (It's an American Joke)
I have an ancient Rong Fu mill-drill with a circular center column. I was never able to successfully tramm it using shims. I mean I worked on it for months.
I ended up replacing the four bolts holding the column to the base with special bolts of my own make. Made four special screws from tool steel. The "down" end screws into the base and is locked down with a lock nut. The "up" end was cut with fine threads with locking nuts above and below the column. Tramming is done by adjusting the "up" side locking nuts.
It works and the tramm job lasts until I loosen the head and crank it up or down the central column (i.e. usually minutes).
For parts that don't require the best tramm job, I just run the machine in it's current tramm state. When I need to get serious, something else has to be done.
Had to make a set of adjustable parallels. Put a set screw into each end of each parallel and then use a dial indicator to set the parallels. So long as the work piece is perpendicular to the spindle center line, everything should be fine. I mean it doesn't really matter whether you tramm the mill or tramm the work piece to the mill.
Sure wish I had a Bridgeport. Junk is tiresome and time consuming.
Just one rather critical aspect needs to be mentioned here.
I observed a top flight precision machinist do this exact same procedure. However, he first seperated the head from the pedestal and waxed both surfaces with a very high grade wax.
Then if you ever need to separate the two, or reclaibrate, they come apart with ease.
Sounds like it may be possible to spray it with a silicone instead. That way you only need to separate the parts like in the video.
This is actually quite similar to how they fix big/medium ship engines. They align the large motor using threaded rods and pour a special epoxy mix along the foundation. So this should be more than good for a small milling machine :-) great videos by the way, love your sense of detail. Thanks
I laughed so hard when you read out the data sheet on the epoxy and said they also use it on alien technology. Thanks for all the great videos.
many new machines are built using this method such as clausuig lathes and way surfaces are made with this Moglice in U.S. Your methods are spot on. they make many viscosties of this epoxy for use in vertical and horizontal applications. Installing brass set screws (grub screws)in the column base for the purpose of tramming makes it a bit easier. Nice video on how to tram a column on a RF45 type mill.
You are correct about mating surfaces, they do something similar when mating very large turbine components to one another. Really appreciated you sharing this!
Thanks for showing this in action! Ever since I watched your video about the modifications you made to your lathe I have wondered about this category of products.
Another great video! Watching the real time clip of you cranking up the head tells me that your gas springs, which counter balance the weight of the head, really reduce the effort and time to raise the head up. I don't have these and I doubt I could raise and lower my head enough times during the 50 minute pot life to achive good alignment. When I shimmed my column I used a a 1/10 dti against a angle block but after just a few cranks up and down my 70+ year old shoulder gave out and had to take a break. I have since replaced the crank with a surplus gear motor but it still moves the head up too slowly. I hope that by adding gas springs I can install a faster gear motor and replace the shims with filled epoxy as you did so expertly.
If anyone wanted a quick and dirty assist just for the purposes of speeding up precision tramming (and saving wearing out body parts), perhaps they could rig a cord over a pulley from a ceiling joist to a counterweight.
Wow, did you say only 50 minutes pot life? That sure would be nerve rattling under that time constraint, great job and coverage as usual.
you don't have to worry - it will be somewhat fluid and tacky in this 50 minutes, thereafter you have about 20 hours where it goes from tacky to harder. after some 6-7 hours it will be soft enough to be cut with a sharp kniife or chisel, so you may clean it upl Fully hardened/cured it will be only after a week or even more time.
Wrong - Datasheet says its fully hardened after 24 hours at room temperature!
The trick is to prepare.
Using the masking tape on the bottom edge not just to mask it off, but to create a dam for the resin. This would have saved Stefan a few nerve wrecking minutes.
Having the rest of your equipment ready and tested for the tramming is also crucial and I am sure Stefan had his dial indicator and square ready before mixing anything.
I am four years late watching this Stefan, but very interesting to see how it was done. Thank you!
I got a Prazi mill where I had to make a base for it. I've been spending the last year trying to figure out how to tram my hack. I came up with five solutions, but none made me feel good. This one did. I now see that the modifications I need to make will work over time. Thanks.
Great vid brother. I too have shims in mine th8s is a great way to solve that problem I think a few test runs to see how quickly you can tram it in will help people no end before they apply the product give you some indication of how quickly you can do the job first. Take care lee.
Stefan, great vid! Am only part way through but need to write this lest I forget. One of the ways you can effectively increase the pot life of epoxy is to cool it down. Not sure how this would work with your application but turning your air conditioner on "high" comes to mind. Possibly chilling your machine column mating surfaces. Something like that. Not to the point that it sweats, but cooler is better if you're looking to longer times.
Now back to the vid!
Thanks for the great video Stefan. I am also covering these ideas and techniques on my g0704 videos. Along with how to make some of your own epoxy fillers for cavity filling, mating surfaces, and finishing materials. All for the purpose of dampening vibration, surface correction and so.
Thanks again for helping others to become aware of these techniques.
I really enjoy your videos. They are informative and I like the humor as well. Thanks for sharing!!
Stefan, did you do anything to prevent the epoxy from running into the screw threads? I'd be afraid if something went wrong with the shimming, that it would be permanent -since in the beginning of the video you said you cannot machine the cured epoxy.
That is a very good question. I assume greasing the threads would work to stop the epoxy sticking to them?
We do a lot of chocking of marine gearboxes and engines with epoxy. Also German made by "Springer" this type is epocast.
Our procedure is indeed greasing the bolts before pouring the resin, if we dont do that, the epoxy can break when tightening the bolts after the resin cured.
I am really impressed. I will add to your list of products that maybe do the same thing the *Moglice* product. No idea how it's pronounced; believe it's Swedish origin. Saw it used in a lathe restoration project to rebuild worn ways. In the US there is also Turcite, that is mostly for worn ways on lathes. Bravo Stefan!
Moglice is made by the same German company, Diamant, that make the DWH which Stefan used here.
That was very cool.
Gday Stefan, this is really interesting, I don’t think I would be confident to do my round column mill with a 50min window, if it was a 5hr window I think I would have half a chance, thank you for sharing, it was very interesting, thanks take care, Matty
Awesome video!!! I didn't even know about this stuff. I'll definitely be looking it up and getting some in. :) Thanks!!
Mike
That was an ingenious use of copper wire. I never thought of that. Im curious to know why you chose to do the initial tramming using the square rather than just sweeping it in right off the table. Excellent video as always.
Sweeping the table tells you your spindle is square with the table, but your column can still be pretty out. So when you rise or lower the headstock, X and Y will vary. To square the column you have to check it moving the headstock up and down with a precission square or master cylinder, just like Stefan did.
+EmperorDevilhunter Thank you for the reply. Ok I see what you mean. Im used to machines that you raise or lower the table, not the head. So if he gets the column perfectly square to the table and afterwards finds that the spindle is out of tram, is there a way to adjust that on that machine?
Fred Geitner I have a similar machine and most of them you can rotate the head 90º left and right, so that's not a problem. The real problem is front and back, if your spindle is out there you may need to shim/epoxy fill/scrape between the headstock and the Z axis carriadge
Learned something again. I would have glued (with classic epoxy) the 4 copper wires on the surfaces on forehand, so one is sure they are not pushed aside by the metallic epoxy that is flowing out from between the surfaces.
Stefan, would it be possible to tram it in with just the copper wire shims and then inject the epoxy? I was thinking maybe you could drill a couple of holes in the mounting flange so that you could pour or inject the epoxy there and let it spread out into the ~1mm gap. maybe the viscosity is too high though... I just think I would be too worried about the pot life to do this method unless it was trammed before mixing the epoxy.
Wunderbar!
That will be one of my winter projects.
The best I could get was .0005" on the Y using shims,
its not bad but its not perfect.
This video will be a great help Stephan,
Fin Danke
Glad you liked it, thanks :)
Great video! Does the epoxy make it's way into the threads of the screws holding the column to the base?
Have you ever considered applying this technique with DWH epoxy between the connection of the Z axis carriage and head of the mill? I am not sure if DWH could be applied into a vertical joint such as the joint between Z axis carriage and head, but if it could then it seems like it might be a nice solution to improve this connection and reduce tool vibration...
I guess you could coat one of the mating surfaces with a releasing agent if you still wanted the ability to rotate the mills head for angled cutting operations.
I appreciate your insight on this concept.
Cheers and keep up the great work!
Eric
It would probably be preferable to use something thicker and less heavy, such as DWH 316 Mineral Filled Putty
Guten Tag, frage: wo kann ich diesen Fühlhebelmessuhrhalter kaufen für die Befestigung an der Spindel? Oder wie heisst dieser, damit ich ihn im Google finden kann? Bin am Projekt dran meine Kami 350er auf cnc umzubauen. Alle Schwalbenschwänze habe ich schleifen lassen und habe bereits eingeschabt, jedoch werde ich die Z Säule auch mit Epoxi einbetten. Haben Sie eigentlich eine Kontaktfläche mit Trennmittel behandelt, oder haben Sie Ihre Säule für die Ewigkeit verklebt?
German machinist achieves perfect tramming of mill. "Well, I guess that will have to do, but I will find a way to improve it as soon as possible."
'This stuff is nasty, and this stuff is even more nasty.' So true when talking about epoxy.
Wow, I learned something new! Every day's a skill day on your channel. I have an 'XJ25' Chinese bench top MT3 mill that I may have to adjust so this might be useful stuff. Thanks for sharing.
"Mr Precision" rides again. :)
Long process but super results... great video Stefan.
Nice to see work of this nature.The working time of most epoxy is considerably longer than the pot life. What effect does having voids fore and aft at the base have on what is trying to be achieved here? Also Devcon was used on mating surfaces on cranes swing circle bearings. If one considers cranes range from 10 tons to over 300 tons something like Devcon should work on a mills base.
Great video, lots of work getting things right. Keep on keeping on.
The .. Ezesretsrt
Thank you! I will use this to fix a problem with my lathe tailstock.
By the way, itchy nose is an occupational hazard for surgeons during an operation. A friendly nurse will scratch, within reason.
The foam rope is called "backer rod" in the states. It comes in many different sizes and is used for caulking. Mostly on brick or block buildings where a control or expansion joint is called for.
I use steel epoxy to bed the receiver in the stocks of my target rifles and it works great. You can also glue them in with it. To remove, use heat. I don't think the stuff I use will kill fish...... lol
That should make your machine purr like a kitten. Nice mod. Thanks for the videos!
Yea I watched this when it came out I was hoping you would do more of this epoxy stuff. As I have watched them build machinery bases etc with this type of material. But your very descriptive and a great source.
Thank you Stefan, your technique should work on small mini mills which need all the help they can get.
A masterclass in attaining precession. Thank you.
It was nice to see you hop arround the mill in fastmode, this increases the epoxy potlife time.:):)
Congratulations. Excellent video and this material has many other possible applications.
th
The nose only itches when you can't scratch! Great video too!
hi。may i know the exact model number of the metal-filled resin compounds that you use。as in the company website。 there are several types for the selection。。
Thanks for this.
I had been wanting to do this to my mill for a while, I am just not keen on gluing the column to the base. I believe the proper way to do this is to coat one surface with a release agent like wax, not sure how that works with your product. I suspect that simple clear packing tape would also work. The column + headstock on my mill weighs upwards 300kG, so not a trivial thing to lift in a gentle controlled manner.
The term we use for this on this side of the pond is "bedding." Large machines get leveled on jack screws, then a special grout is poured under the machine. Columns are also bedded using expoxies or machine grout.
BTW, grout is the word for the "chalk" you described. Chalk is the white sticks used by teachers for writing on chalk boards :)
I think Stefan was alluding to 'Caulk', J.
@Average Joe Jip :)
Yes, normaly you put a release agent on one side - But if you dont intend to take them apart every week thats not necessary. The bond between the parts can be broken very easy and the remaining material can be chiseled off.
Thanks for the correct term, I never heard "bedding" before, but makes sense :D
Or Stefan may have been trying for "chock" (as in Chockfast)
Hello Stefan great job I learn a lot myself thank you. I have question when you check your trim at the end off levelling process you have measured bottom plain with gauge block and swivel indicator. But that gives you readout only when column is completely lowered. Would it make sense to bring it in 100mm up and do the same to find if there is any tilt on travel.(possibly repeat on another 100mm increment) I don't own mill yet I am on gathering knowledge stage ( rebuilding mini Chinese wonder I will need mill soon) so can you clarify that for me please.
very cool. hopefully you never need to separate that connection.
Given the limited working time of the epoxy you need to move quite quickly in tramming the head to the table. Almost no time to troubleshoot problems or waste time correcting a mistake
I’m wondering whether tramming the head ‘dry’ with some annealed copper wire then lifting the column slightly to inject the epoxy would buy time in the tramming process.
The dry tramming should get the head close to its final position then when the epoxy is applied and the column is reset on the base it (hopefully) is only a few adjustments to get it back into position.
When lifting the column after the dry fit the copper wire would have to be secured close to its position which might be achieved if the wire was long enough to extended out from the mating surfaces.
I love the idea of epoxying the column to the base but it strikes me that it’s a one-shot-deal. Either you get it right or you’re in trouble.
how do you keep the resin from locking the bolts?
Would it have been a good idea to use shim sheets, bottom and top of contact faces, and apply the epoxy in between the sheets?
Enjoyed your video, I have the 30 model, I must check to see what the run out is, it is only a few weeks in my workshop andstill waiting on NT30 collet chuck.
Did you mention the run out prior to the epoxy...
If mine is out, I now know what to do, thank you.
Very impressed with 0, 0, 0, 0. over a 200mm dia.
I had it shimmed prior to the epoxy treatment to roughly the same precision. But stiffness was worse...
Very interesting - Had no idea of this excellent concept. May give it a go on my LMS x2 mill. Thanks!
Awsome work Stefan, just this week I have been thinking on traming my column because I'm tired of imprecision every time I change the tool lengh (since is not square, X and Y vary). I think it's possible to use the copper rod method without the epoxy on there, just to take all the time you need. Then create a vacum bag around the atachment and inject the epoxy, like is made in the aerospace industry with composites. This will force the epoxy to get into every gap and full fill everything. By the way I still have to buy the precission sqare, is yours DIN 875 type 0, I or II? I was thinking maybe type I was enough
stefan quick question. How did you dismantle the machine afterwards when the column and the base got glued when you applied the epoxy.
I would just break it apart. The DHW is not a brutal strong glue.
I didn't quite see. It looked like the epoxy was applied to the sides of the column? Not in the front and back of the column? What about around the screws? Was the amount of epoxy not enoguht to squeeze down there and be a problem?
Great video and tutorial Stefan! Just wondering what you will do if you crash the mill and need to re-tram??
Yes! This is my primary question/concern about using this method, what about when you need to ‘re-do’ it? Reference was made to adhesive properties, so that cuts both ways-so to speak. Seems like there must be a way to remove and re-do, but I’m not sure how. I wouldn’t really like to take a torch to the joint. But without jack screws or some other method, how to separate for “next time?”
I very much hope the take-aways of our foreign guests here include some fine examples of German humor. 4:42 Yes, it exists, and there is even the occasional deadpanning. Also 10:39 the sudden appearance of black, Strangelovian gloves. God, HOW did Kubrick never get an Oscar?! And where did I put my pills?
:D
Our humor might not be as refined as the british humor, but it exists :)
You can always tell a German .... you just can't tell him much!
Great job Stefan. I wasn't familiar with this technology.
Bob
Hi Stefan, what is the specification for the Gas Struts that you are using please. Is there a part number to be able to order them? Thanks.
Here in the U.S. we use a similar epoxy to set heavy machinery onto foundations onboard navy ships. A good example is the propeller shaft bearings that must be perfectly aligned. The stuff is called "chockfast orange"
Thanks for this very helpful video. I have the same job vaiting for me. 10 years ago I bought the Chinese rotatable column Drill/Mill. Since then I redid the gear box several time bough omelet rebuild parts and a fixed column with its base. I am sure I'll have to do the same epoxy shimming when I'll have the time to rebuild, may be never. Thanks for the help.
Hi Stefan. From my point of view this video could not have been posted at a better time, because having seen your video some months ago when you bought your RF45 clone, I decided that a BP really would be too big for my tiny shop and so I thought if it's good enough for you, then it's certainly good enough for me. I was intrigued when in your original video you said that you were NOT going to shim the column, and now I know the alternative method. My RF45 is the Warco variety which is fairly common in the UK, but essentially identical to yours. So, I have a couple of questions. I understand the tramming for the x and y axes, but you didn't mention dealing with any possible rotation of the column. When I set my RF45 up literally 3 days ago I had to correct for this issue. It wasn't difficult, but it obviously couldn't just be bolted down and that's that. The other question is your gas struts to take some of the head load. What length are they, and how much force do they apply? I saw another YT video about an RF45 where the guy mounted counter balance weights, but I must say I like the gas struts idea more. Thanks in advance for any advice. Regards Mark in the UK
I'd like to know more about the gas struts too. I have smaller mill with the same design as the RF-45 and would like to do something similar.
Glad it is usefull for you :)
As for the rotation of the Z-Axis, that only matters if you want to do accurate work with the head of the mill tilted.
For the gas struts look here:
gtwr.de/shop/pro_optimum_mb4/gassprings.html
I thought about a counterweight too, but having 70kg of steel hanging at the back of the mill was nothing I was looking for.
Is there some property of a compressible copper shim that makes it superior to lead? E.g. work hardening serves well once in place and/or lead is too soft? Im considering using lead for a similar project where I need a little more surface area of compressed material. Thanks.
Hi Stefan,
Great video.
The link for the epoxy is "dead".
Can you confirm it's the "DWH heavy filler"?
Thanks
yes, its DHW - I think its DHW 310 P now
@StefanGotteswinter , thanks for your reply. And Thanks a lot for yours videos, always usefull.
Hi stefan, The foam tape is probably '3M soft edge masking tape', Its used to mask door jambs etc. when painting vehicles. Regards, J.
Hi, I'm about to do the same with a custom machine frame for a small Taig CNC mill that will have 4 set screws for leveling next to the 4 clamping screws on the connection between the base and the column. Do you have to keep the epoxy away from the threads of the clamping or leveling screws? Thank you.
Edit: I saw on your later videos of your big VMC you had setscrew provisions for leveling. That's what I have. Are you going to put something like an O-ring around the leveling screws and/or the clamping screws on the big VMC when you level it? (I guess you already did level it...). Or did you put wax or oil on the threads before injecting the epoxy?
Best jokes I heard in a while, also this epoxy thing is quite fascinating.
Great job Stefan I have heard of using epoxy to do what you did on your mill.
I know this is an old video, but did you tram everything with the 4 bolts on the column base. Or does the head swivel left and right also? Thanks.
1/3 E means it is like a perfect shaped Aluminum shim then. Epoxies have become the go to over the last 20yrs for machine tools rather than the labor and tools required to achieve precison metal to metal fits. I believe many manufacturers now use epoxy way systems from new for better performance.
In the US I have had good results using JB Weld epoxy to repair eroded cylinder aluminum heads, with no sign on deterioration after numerous years. This is on the water jacket between cylinders and under head gasket, not in combustion chambers. I expect you could put waxed paper between the mating parts to allow nondestructive disassembly. You might also want to put some sort of indexing pins or roll pins around two of the studs to ensure exact location. Do not glue the pins, however! Reynolds also makes a kitchen aluminum foil with a teflon coating on one side if you do not want paper. You might also want to machine a couple reliefs on opposing edges to pry the column loose if needed.
JB Weld is mixed in equal portions from tubes and has an indefinite shelf life.
I am aware of JB weld and used it on my lathe to level out the tailstock, but on the millI didnt want to take chances and used what the industrie uses for the purpose :)
Btw, seperating parts with the DHW Epoxy in between is not a problem it is not realy a "glue", it pops off the surface quite easy.
In the U.S., the foam rod is sold as "backer-rod" and comes in a variety of sizes and materials.
That epoxy looked like Devcom. That part about gloves and itchy nose was a laugh out loud moment, as we've all been there.
The epoxy in the thread doesn’t cause any problems ?
Yes, but your nose wouldn't be itching if you were just watching the TV with clean hands. Itching knows when to strike! Cheers for the tips.
great vidio, i have shims in my machine, need to do this process. i like the copper wire crush gauge that certainly make this task posible. thank for info, joel
Very interesting technology and, of course, excellent presentation.
Any other brand that works for this application? Diamant sold out every time I look.
I think something like JB Weld will work also (and in fact I used it for a similar purpose).
very interesting I never new this was a way to do this only knew about scraping it in. thanks much
Hi Stefan, there is one thing that twists my brain here: how did you rule out that in the final measurement on the table an out-of-tram-head did not equal out an opposite-out-of-tram Z column?
Just for exaggeration assume your column was actually 10° out of tram to the left and the head was rotated 10° in the other direction. That would equal out the error when measuring.
I see that this would need a lot of coincidence especially with having all around all zero but i cannot shake the feeling that the tram of the head itself somehow needs to be figured into all of this but for the life of me I cannot come up with the "how". Can you help here?
Very interesting technique of squaring mill, will keep this idea for my future projects.
Hallo Stefan,
Gibt es dieses Video auch in Deutscher Sprache ?
PS. Ebenfalls bin ich auf der Suche nach einem Montage Video von einer 3 Achs Digitalanzeige von Sino. Ich wäre Dir sehr dankbar wenn Du mir diesbezüglich einen Rat geben könntest.
Gruß Karl
From what I can find the foam rod is called caulk backer rod. For Americans, apparently you can find it at True Value 20 ft x 1/2" for $4.49
Im wondering how handy is this epoxy if for any reason you want to take of the column from the base ? I mean that propably you will have to tram and fill again with this liquid because the old one will brake . If one of the two mating surfaces waxed so the epoxy stick to one and not to both of them will this be a solution?
How is it holding up after 4 years of use?
If you mask off the outside of the column with tape, cleaning up any of the epoxy that leaks out from under the column will be easier. Just peal off the tape after it cures. I wonder if a magnet would hold the epoxy in place to prevent it from flowing out?
Beautiful work, it is an excellent presentation.
Just found your channel through NyCNC and I have the same exact milling machine! How did you set up the gas spring to help with raising and lowering the head? I would love to see a video about it... Thanks!! 👍
I know this is an old video, But the link for the product is dead. Which exact Diamant product number did you use ? Thanks for the vid.
Its Diamant DHW:
diamant-polymer.de/en/products/dwh/
Interesting method. I have HBM Profi 45, which frame and table seems pretty much identical. 50um is the best I can do what comes to difference between front and back part of the table. I'm very much tempted to try this, but I have some problems I need to sort out before doing so.
First, the angle of my table changes along the cross-feed. It's understandably drooping down in frontmost position, when rails have some overhang, but also backside is lifting up when closing the backmost position. It can easily been seen when using precision level. Another problem is, that head tilt changes along the height. It seems column is flexing more, the higher the head is.
Alignment change 50um with relatively light push from the head. Of course it doesn't correct the error, since it affect on both sides, front and back. Still I want to test does it help if I put adjustable bar from the top of the column to my solid stone wall.
I have tried to play with the tilt by shimming the bottom of my machine against the milling table but it seems adjustment is not enough. I first put it on three aluminium bars, trying to find positions where rails don't bind and there are minimal twist. Then I level my table and put large number of aluminium wedges under my machine, trying to keep the force as equal as possible, same time trying to minimize remaining twist and tilt errors.
It would be interesting to know how straight other Chinese machines are and what people have done to make them better. I suspect mine was dropped during shipping since crate was crushed under the machine and some parts have gone through the plywood. The courier didn't admit it was them.