I think their large number of spells known and spell options pushes them over the edge, but shouldn't dismiss the sorcerer with their metamagics around spell saves. Makes them really good at whichever control spell they are able to pick up.
Why didn't you guys mention slow? Did you forget about it or is there some fatal flaw I'm missing? Great video, by the way. Thanks for making awesome content!
I think the strength of the Wizard, as always, is the ability to adjust to so many different demands. That said, there are classes that can be built into better controllers. They just don't have the flexibility of the massive spell list. One of the things that makes a controller effective is the ability to maintain concentration. Sorcerers, with CON save proficiency, have an obvious advantage there. Another thing that's worth mentioning, is that the most effective form of control is avoidance, in that it negates any further handling of the situation. As such, spells that aren't traditionally considered control, like Pass Without Trace, can be game changers. Hard control, like Tasha's, probably goes to the Bard. Area denial probably goes to the Druid or Cleric. The Sorc and Wiz come in as a mix, with the Sorc's strength being metamagic and CON saves and the Wiz's strength being sheer volume of options. So, in a game where mobs of mooks are the enemy, area denial is key and your Druid is probably going to be the go-to. In a game where each encounter is centered around a single BBEG and a coupe minions, hard control is more likely to be valuable, so your Bard is probably the winner. In a long campaign or series of different campaigns, where the caster has to reinvent himself numerous times and simply cannot sit in a single role, the Wizard becomes the clear winner.
Do you know what I love about this channel? 1- They go to the point. It is not forced just to be longer. They make a small intro and start talking about what matters. 2- they dont do weird faces that show on the thumbnails. 3- The quantity and quality of humor is just right to this kind of video. 4- they seem to know the game.
yes i agree, they also preface a lot of their choices as being..well...THEIR choices. Saying that there might be other viable options, or even options that might be better but they overlooked. they don't act like they know it all, they just give their opinion, say it's jsut their opinion and motivate it (with valid arguments :P) too bad there's no sleet storm though...i just love it, huge area with difficult terrain, enemies can't see anything,... but i do get why'd you go for hypnotic pattern for 3rd level i much prefer these types of vids over stuff like...taking20, which is often just... plain wrong, opinions worded as facts, ... (not that taking20 is bad...dungeon dudes are just better :P)
Like any DM who takes their craft seriously, they always try to improve and grow. The same applies to this channel, as most of the points you mention are traits of a good "UA-camr" or "Content creator." They are serious about it, and work to improve. Many content creators will tell you the value of a brief intro, and how to stick to the point. How some may use click bait thumbnails, but most audiences would rather not have their intelligence insulted, etc. The parallels between DM'ing and Content Creation are numerous, in fact. People's time is valuable and they aren't obligated to give it to you. It used to be easier to be a poor DM, because you might've been the only game in town, but now there's a community. Passionate DM's find loyal players. Similarly a UA-cam audience can be watching anything, so if you want some of that precious eyeball time you have to care about your craft, and aim for quality. Passionate content creators find a loyal audience. Both fields know too well that without an audience, you're just a sad fellow talking to himself. Sorry, that went on too long. I tend not to comment, because I break into treatises, but I honestly really appreciate these guys.
Let me tell you a fun story about Tasha's Hideous laughter. So our party was hired to assassinate a guy. We would get paid more if we did it quietly. We shadowed the guy for a while and discovered his routine, 23 hours at his near impenetrable fortress, and about an hour overseeing shipments at the nearby docks. Naturally, we decided to ambush him at the docks, but docks are crowded and have guards. We were confident we could get out of line of sight from most guards / pedestrians, but no one had silence. I had a bit of a grappling build, so I had the idea that we could do a running tackle and get the fight underwater. This ends up being the plan we go with, and within seconds of rolling initiative, splish splash we're in the water. For those of you who haven't had the joy of fighting underwater, let me save you some time. It is awful. Everyone has disadvantage on everything basically. Thankfully, we bypassed this by the bard casting Tasha's Hideous Laughter on the guy once he was underwater. The funny thing about laughing is it isn't possible to hold your breath at the same time. They poor guy passed out and died after 20 or so seconds, didn't have to do a single point of damage to him. And that is the story of how Terri got a Flame-tongue greatsword.
I have dropped jaws from party members who see me use it to to bring Dragon encounters from terrifying to a complete joke lol! It's so good for creative situations like yours!
Was the bard underwater as well? Because then id ask how he cast it xD but aside from that small fact... that an hilarious way of assassinating someone!
I had a similar moment with a cube of force... The party (a Monk, Paladin and Cleric) put a high level Oathbreaker Paladin in the cube and then put him in the no-no corner. It was a very quick fight...
Lmao.... My party was in a arena fight, and Our monk casted silence, our warlock sickening radiance, and I casted wall of force around all of it. We call it the "microwave", and sometimes still use it. Silence makes it pretty much impossible to teleport out, and the sickening radiance exhaustion just melts through people.
Ehh, not really. That slogan's just as applicable to damage dealers and AC tanks who respectively try to kill enemies before they get attacks in and waste enemy attacks by dodging them. "Divide and conquer" is your classic slogan for control builds.
Plant Growth for the win. It doesn't require concentration, is permanent, covers a ONE HUNDRED FOOT RADIUS and THERE IS. NO. SAVE. So it doesn't matter if you are a goblin or a Tarrasque, it still gets you. A creature in the area with 30 feet of movement can only cover 6 feet with their move, so you have all day to pick them off. You can even shape the area to leave your allies out of the effect. It actually controls the battlefield, not a monster or two.
@@kodahansen8080 But that is never a surprise is it? With other spells, creature can have an immunity or resistence you don't know about (or forgot) or they can simply roll high on a save and POOF, there goes your spell. In my game last night, the bard cast Hypnotic Pattern on a group, but forgot they were drow, so they had advantage on the save. They passed and the spell (and suprise) was wasted. That never happens with Plant Growth, because you know whether or not there are plant present and if you aren't sure asking the DM to describe the scene doesn't require a roll.
@@supercalifragic1551, carry a grape vine stem with either a bag of soil or a small pouch of Heward's Handy Haversack filled with dirt. A single grape plant can cover an entire vineyard, and thus the entire area of the spell several feet deep in vines. You should see the pictures of Grand Canyon areas that are overgrown with Arizona grape vine. It goes all the way up the canyon walls. Kudzu also works well for this purpose, but I'd feel bad unleashing that invasive species on any ecosystem... It's eaten the southern USA. Also, grapevines can make food. I once did this in an Egyptian-Style crypt and used plant growth to seal several horizontal sarcophagus shut. I hate mummies.
@@StilltheAp0llyon, carry a grape vine stem with either a bag of soil or a small pouch of Heward's Handy Haversack filled with dirt. A single grape plant can cover an entire vineyard, and thus the entire area of the spell several feet deep in vines. You should see the pictures of Grand Canyon areas that are overgrown with Arizona grape vine. It goes all the way up the canyon walls. Kudzu also works well for this purpose, but I'd feel bad unleashing that invasive species on any ecosystem... It's eaten the southern USA. Also, grapevines can make food. I once did this in an Egyptian-Style crypt and used plant growth to seal several horizontal sarcophagus shut. I hate mummies.
Really liking the decision to look at 5th level and lower spells in these "best spell" guides because I've played so many games that die out before even having those higher level spells available. You guys are awesome at what you do.
I agree. 4th level and lower are really the meat and potatoes of gaming. Lot of utility and recasting of the same level spell going on. Also, higher level spells are so powerful you are really only casting them once or maybe twice a day to snap your fingers and Thanos someone away, lol
If you're looking for the TL;DW: 4:12 Tasha's Hideous Laughter 7:51 Web 11:33 Hypnotic Pattern 15:04 Banishment 18:32 Wall of Force 22:09 Honorable Mentions
"They're trapped in there with the barbarian!" That invisible wall isn't going to be invisible for much longer then... By round four it will probably be solid red, or whatever other color of blood the critter may have...
My favorite use of Force Wall was keeping a cave in from collapsing on the party as we escaped a secret Mind-Flayer base hidden in a cave. As we ran to the door, with out squidly friends on our tail, I dropped the spell and crushed a great deal of them when the rocks fell. Quite literally, Rocks Fall, Everybody dies.
In my first time ever DMing a 5e game (2nd time ever DMing) my all new players to DnD in their first session were on an airship being attacked by aarakocra bandits like 1,000 feet in the air. One of my players, a Ancient One Warlock, cast Tasha's hideous laughter on one of the bandits still flying over the edge of the ship and he failed the save. The bandit immediately fell out of sight of the players. The rest of the battle played out over the next 3 turns. I kept rolling the save for the bandit as he was falling and he kept failing. After the battle was over my Warlock player asked did that guy who fell out of the sky die. I rolled one last save for him, failed, and died as he hit the ground. I told the player you lose concentration on the spell as the bandit splatters across the ground and the whole table cheered in laughter.
Gamerkam Because I’m fun at parties I’m going to mention that an aarakocra would almost certainly have a non-fatal terminal velocity if they were capable of flight especially if their limbs were flailing in laughter so the bandit would definitely not have died. Oh boy am I fun at parties.
@@alienplatypus7712 true if physics were something DnD rules accounted for but based on the rules of the game anything falling more than 10 feet takes falling damage and there are no rules stating aaracokra are an exeption to this rule. even on all ones there is no way a CR 1/4 creature could take that much falling damage and live even if they were somehow a barbarrian that was raging. Im fun at parties too.
Fun control spells for Warlocks can include Hunger of Hadar and Evards Black Tentacles for lower levels, with Mental Prison and Maddening Darkness as good options for your Mystic Arcanum. These are great for compounding damage too if you use your eldritch blast to keep knocking enemies back into them!
I know you guys weren't going for high level abilities, but a wizard with school of illusion is unmatched for battlefield control. By the 14th level they get illusory reality, which means they can use Silent Image to create cages/walls/whatever and make them real. By the 18th level if they pick Silent Image as one of their spells to cast as a cantrip, they can literally cantrip cages on top of everyone. Not quiet as awesome as wall of force, but the shear re-usability is amazing.
I'm playing an illusionist right now, and I think things might get pretty interesting at level eleven. That's when I can upcast major image at level six to make it permanent. With malleable illusions, I can carry around this illusionary multi-tool that I doesn't require concentration and I can change around at will. A well-placed illusion can cause enemies to waste a couple turns on a distraction, which I count as a pretty good form of battlefield control.
@@godsamongmen8003 Have done this before. My suggestion is to keep extra illusions inside your bag of holding. You essetially have infitine out of combat illusions without using resources and it can be useful not to have to use your action to reposition the illusions.
Hmmm, is it posibble to create a diamond, pearl, gold, or any material components for others spellcaster to cast spell? Such as a diamond to cast Raise Dead and Resurrection. If that possible, it would really help a party a lot
Whenever I see or use Tasha's hideous laughter I always remember the monty phyton world funniest joke sketch. That spell is essentially a nerfed version of the thing.
In my experience as a druid, it can pretty much single handedly take out a zombie apocalypse in a town. Just get over chokehold, cast it there, and watch every zombie hilariously kill itself as it tries to get you. One cast got me a couple hundred kills.
Been playing a Warlock for a while now. 1st lvl Faerie fire has done so much for my team facing those slightly overpowerd for their chalangerating enemies.
I love your guy's content so much, very informative without the side effect that some DnD channels get, as in acting like they are god among us who just simply want to learn. It is relieving to learn from someone who does not want you to rip and tear their skull off barbarian rage style.
Great list guys! All really good spells. I might like the hold person/monster spells a bit less than you, otherwise, it's pretty much identical to what I would choose. Some other low level battlefield control spells I think are very good: Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, Fear, Slow, Bigby's Hand and Watery Sphere
@@DungeonDudes Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere is also a good 4th level control spell, not as good as Banishment in most cases, but it can be more useful in some circumstances as it targets Dex, so better for an Illithid for example.
@@DungeonDudes Thanks guys, I'm enjoying your channel, of the D&D channels I watch, yours is my favorite! Well thought out analysis, and you two have great on camera chemistry.
Just the other day I used Spike Growth to great effect against a band of charging Orcs, our Ranger and other ranged characters could pick off enough to make the fight easy, fun times :)
Probobly unpopular opinion but Sleet storm is one of my favs when it comes to crowd control if you want to have some distiance in combat and if you have a druid that throws entangle on top of that good luck on getting out that . Heard this combo somewhere months ago may eaven have been here idk .
I am with you on Sleet Storm. Very underrated spell that does some serious work. The main selling point for me is that it works wonders against enemy casters, who tend to trump a lot of battlefield control. Hag covens probably have nightmares about this spell.
The big problem is that it hurts your own party just as much. If you just want to get away, this spell would be great. But I'm honestly having trouble deciding whether I should take this at level 5, and how I would use it effectively in a way that doesn't screw my party.
@@elgatochurro Monster HP scales way too fast unfortunately, so Sleep falls behind the curve _very_ quickly and upcasting it doesn't give enough of a guaranteed increase to reliably work. I had a player try to use Sleep upcast to throw at some CR 1 or 2 mobs and couldn't put any of them to sleep even with the dice being nice about it.
@@elgatochurro I should've rephrased... It didn't work well in my campaign I tried to play in because the DM's doubled the # of hit-dice of all monsters... thought that'd be "fun".
4:35 It's Word's funniest joke from monty python. Polimorph + Any kind of earth moving spell to bury them alive. I had great moment with banishment. Mad sorcerer summoned powerful demon(that one was ment to be big boss). I had banishment ready. Boss defeated in one turn.
This is why anything that should be considered a boss or main antagonist should have legendary resistance. I had a similarly awesome situation with the final boss from Storm King's Thunder. Held off on my highest level slot for something big, which came when it used it's final legendary action to prevent a stun from our monk, just before dropping her as it's legendary action. I, as the only party member still standing, cast polymorph and successfully turned it into a mouse. Which I unceremoniously placed in a pouch that I cinched tight and threw into an incredibly deep pit in the back of it's lair, killing it. We 100% wiped if it saved as all I had left were first level slots and about a quarter of my hit points.
Huh, that's a brilliant idea! The polymorphed form would be able to hold its breath under the earth for 1+CON mod minutes, then runs out of breath and survives CON mod rounds longer before dropping to 0 hit points and reverting to its normal form, but at that point it's already out of air and has CON mod rounds (if even that) before it drops to 0 again and starts making death saves, and can't be stabilized or regain hit points until it can breathe again, so it's basically just a drawn-out WIS save against death as long as there's nobody trying to dig it out. Combo it with sleep so that it takes far less time and has no ability to dig itself out of the hole.
I've been playing Solasta lately to get into D&D, and I've found that Hypnotic Pattern is just awesome. If I can get multiple enemies with it I'll then have the team focus on them one at a time. It can make a hard battle so much easier. Banishing a creature also helps a lot. Even if they do come back you take the enemy force down by one making it a lot easier, and by time they come back (if they do) you'll likely have killed a few enemies and now you can just all gang up on that one
I really like Watery Sphere personally, especially if you can catch another spell caster with it. If they try to cast a spell with a verbal component they will start drowning and be dead next round. I also used it as an air tight vehicle to move the party through some poison gas once.
Every time a party member has responded to my hypnotic pattern with an area of affect spell I’ve wanted to cry. “Oh cool, you have them all frozen in a group; fireball!” “NOOOOOOOO!!!!”
One of my groups ended a big boss battle before it even began using Polymorph. We had to assault a cultists keep that had an enormous dire drake on top. We were trying to figure out the best way to infiltrate and take out the keep. I knew that we needed to deal with the drake first because it had control of the sky. One of the other players suggested dropping a rock on top of it from the cliff. We discovered that there were no rocks big enough to throw down. Then I remembered that I had Polymorph. I changed into a woolly mammoth and dropped into it. I dealt so much damage from the drop alone, and survived, that not only was the drake taken out, but I then proceeded to trample any cultists that survived the impact. The DM wasn't even able to ask for an initiative roll by the time the keep had been cleared.
This happened to me in a Pathfinder game I ran a long time ago (I believe it was Serpent's Skull). The group was ready to go into a major battle against a foe (I cannot remember who it was or when it happened, sorry about that), and one of the wizards in our group cast Polymorph Other on the BBEG. In Pathfinder, if memory serves, Polymorph Other changes the target into a squirrel unless it makes its save. He did so, and I rolled a 1 on the save. Combat over, as the rest of his lackeys ran away when they saw their leader turn into a helpless squirrel. And if memory serves, Polymorph Other in Pathfinder is permanent unless a Dispel Magic is cast on it.
I love these options, and I personally have fallen in love with the Druid's Entangle and Spike Growth. I understand they are more pointed towards lower level play or things that permanently grounded for that difficult terrain and bonus damage for the smaller foes that only have melee options. I still completely agree with this list, but just wanted to voice my opinion on these great druid spells
I think that the College of Lore Bard beats out the Wizard as the master of battlefield control in 5e because they can have access to EVERY battlefield control spell (including Wall of Force) and also use Cutting Words as needed for some precision battlefield control in the very moment. What is more, the Bard can use their high charisma + proficiency + expertise in social skills to add an extra element to battlefield control that a wizard just can't compete with.
While it is a high level spell, antigravity is one of my absolute favorites. It essentially requires magical movement to escape, which at the very least requires a full action, and they still have to leave the area. It gets even better if you have fly speed, or combo it with traps and aoe. I had a major Dragon villian catch all of the melee characters in an antigravity, then had free access to the backline, as few martial classes have any answer to antigravity.
Fantastic breakdown of spells guy, love your style of delivery too. Been watching alot of your vids over the last week or so and not once have I felt spoken down to, which is a rare commodity in D&D content sometimes!
No mention of Slow? I've personally used it to decimate enemy Action Economy in my game. Sure they can repeat the saves at the end of each turn, but if you get 4-6 targets in it for a few rounds it cuts off multiattacks, potentially limits enemy spellcasters, removes the enemies' Attacks of Opportunity and reduces their speed and AC allowing your frontline to carve through them easier.
DM let me cast Dispel Magic on a summoned elemental. As I was casting it during the summoning, and was a 5 lv. Cleric, he dropped the CR from 9th to a 5th lv. elemental.
This is one of the reasons why I take 1 damage cantrip, 1 scaling damage spell from each level if there is one, at least 1 control spell from each level, and then everything else is utility with the only exception being if there is a unique damage type that is more rare. I would much rather have utility and control over damage when it comes to my spells due to how few casts of each spell I can get. Where as the cantrip (as long as it scales) is more or less my normal weapon and mundane weapons are only for either RP or for zones of no magic.
Man, I love seeing videos like this because many players would not believe how easy encounters can be made with tactical use of good control spells. So often, we try to build our characters to be the "most powerful," whether we mean to or not. But, trust me, as a veteran adventurer, it's most often the players which find good uses of their resources to shut down the opponents which truly shine in combat. I don't care if you dish out 5 times more damage than the rest of us; if the druid and wizard just found a way to trivialize most combat encounters before they begin, your min-maxed barbarian just became a useless sack of dead weight everybody else must now drag around
Hey dudes, keep up the great job on the channel! I think one spell that deserves the list is Suggestion. "jump on one leg for 8 hours" or as once at the table my cleric had the big bad fire giant tell our party all he knew about his dragon boss while we killed his minions :)
Did an old one shot some years ago. I was playing a blackguard, and my friend was an earth cleric. We were assaulted by a couple of ogre sized demons, and he grew in size (can't remember the name of the spell), then grappled with it, and proceeded to earth glide (I think that is the right name) it into the ground, and left it there. I was blown away by that.
Sleep worth honorable mention for level 1 spell - its the king of level 1 at level 1 control spells, and the fact it doesn't give a save means even very high level enemies can be knocked out by a sleep spell - it starts out with 5d8 and gains +2d8 per level.at level 4 you can be dealing 11d8 hp "damage" against an enemy with often high AC, Legendary Resistances, etc. Web - worth noting, you can cast on yourself against melee attackers to prevent them from getting close to you.
Yep! Gotta agree with you, although the one time I used Sleep was when I put a player's character to sleep. They were, uh... Getting a little trigger happy, so I made sure to roll as high as possible. Totally worth it.
The DM at our table cast Sleep on our party sleeping 3 or 4 of our party, after we were having our fun stabbing an NPC with Hold Person getting off auto crits. They were struggling (I was on the other side of the room soloing half a dozen other monsters and doing great. They barely made it through with the skin of their teeth... I didn't have the heart to inform the DM that those would have been auto crits just like we were just barely enjoying with hold person. Would have been sooo dead, my character probably would have been the only one left alive (My character was very effective in the situation, a swarm of of lower HP enemies).
11d8 isn’t really that much though honestly. That’s only an average of 55 HP and a maximum of 88 HP, which against high level enemies isn’t enough to really do much
@@Takapon218 Ultimately it depends on the situation and the player. Sleep will more reliably remove a small number of enemies from the field 9d8 at level 3. Fireball will deal alot of damage in total but not necessarily kill anything 8d6.
bah humbug sleep will do a lot against a bunch of weak enemies sure The original comment here was implying you could use it against HIGH LEVEL enemies though which is what I should have specified might not work Fireball and sleep are both pretty good for wiping enemies off the field though, one just does so kind of peacefully and reversibly. :-) Fireball is good if you’re trying to get rid of a bunch of adds, even at higher levels, and scales a little better too since it doesn’t “use up” its damage so to speak.
In a session the other day the party was battling some enemies in a room with a large, 20 ft deep pit in the center. Long story short, someone casts grease, another party member slips in said grease and falls into the pit. Hearing the cries of pain from the pit, my character jumps in to try and save them. Failing the acrobatics check, I land directly on their head killing them instantly. My character, looking down at the terrible mess, whispers “I’m so sorry...”.
You missed an implication that makes Hideous laughter even better. I’m happy you mentioned the flying creatures going prone. Quick question, can you hold your breath while laughing? Hideous Laughter immediately starts the drowning process! Giving creatures that can’t breathe water a round or two before they drop to 0hp.
Archfey Warlock: Plant Growth + Hunger of Hadar + Forceful Eldritch Blast + Devil’s Sight Average movement of 30 will only be able to move 15 feet even with dash action. 20 foot radius, they go 15 feet out after taking damage, push 10 feet back in, take damage again and move out 15 feet. Point is you can push them back into the damage a lot of times, dealing a good amount of guaranteed damage and more if they fail Dex throws. Best of all Plant Growth means they won’t be going anywhere quickly. If the don’t use dash action, then they can only move 5 feet (7.5 rounded down). My favorite way to use plant growth is to cast it on a wall cutting out areas of its effect to make my patron’s symbol across a giant 100 foot area. Yay, Vandalism in the name of the Archfey deity of Chaos.
I presume you're talking about Hunger of Hadar for that Devil's Sight? Hunger of Hadar isn't magical (or normal) darkness it's a physical void of blackness and inter-dimensional space. ie; Imagine it more like a black Fog Cloud with tentacles.
The one problem with Plant Growth that DMs and players forget is that plants have to be present. Urban, typical dungeon, elemental planes, high mountains, castles, the spell simply doesn’t work.
@@ericpreble674, bring a single grape vine stem planted in a bag of dirt. It's the only plant you need, as vines can spread a surprising distance when "overgrown". Now shape it as you please.
How about Levitate as an alternative to Hold Person? Not only does it leave two enemies flailing helplessly in the air for up to 10 minutes if you twin it, it is also a pretty good versatility spell?
That's the thing though. It's a good versatile spell, not a great control spell. It's the same reason polymorph was only an honorable mention. If you want two or more enemies out of the fight or helpless, there are better options at that level. In the same way, enlarge/reduce are not very good buff/debuff spells, but are excellent toolbox spells. It's like comparing a Handheald hammer to a sledgehammer. A hand hammer can do various things, but if you want a big heavy thing on a stick, a sledgehammer is clearly the better choice.
LOL... These guys... I've been playing DnD for 20 years, and been DMing for the last 12 on and off and I can't get over how serious these guys are with their explanation of battlefield control. It's like I'm watching an actual combat training video :D
Banishment is great, but it's still a runner up to slow at 4th level. You also seem to have a blind spot for spells which mix control with damage, like maelstrom, wrathful smite, and synaptic static.
@@DungeonDudes Right, 3rd it is. Been a while since I played my sorcerer. Thanks. Of course, it happens to be better than hypnotic pattern, too. The distinction between debuff and control seems a fine hair, but it's your video, so who am I to argue?
@@jonc.6046 Generally, when we consider a spell "control" it needs to trap a foe in place, and ideally prevent them from taking actions entirely. Creatures can still move, attack, and take actions while under the effects of Slow -- although they are greatly impaired. The benefit is that it's very easy for characters to continue attacking or damaging a foe affected by slow. The spells we choose mostly prevent creatures from moving or attack *at all*, but the trade off is that they usually can't be attacked either.
Jon C. Slow is definitely underrated, but it’s not better than Hypnotic Pattern mostly because HP is a one save total disable, whereas with Slow the targets get to save every turn while still taking an action.
@@M0ebius Hypnotic pattern is by no means a bad spell, but slow is useful in a much wider range of situations. Slow has selective targeting and a larger area, doesn't have charmed- and illusion-related limitations, and doesn't break on damage. Hypnotic pattern is only better against mobbed enemies standing apart from friendly characters--which also happens to be the ideal time for damage-dealing AoE--or, arguably, on a sorcerer with the careful spell metamagic.
The Druid is horrendously offended at this list. Entangle>Web. It has a longer duration but can be dispelled with a CANTRIP. And is only very slightly easier to get out of. Oh and did I mention that entangle is level one and Web is level two?
Unfortunately in 5th ed entangle only entangles on casting and doesn’t continue to try entangling for the duration of the spell, web does and on larger creatures it can do a lot of damage when set on fire
@@pondrthis1 never said entangle wasn’t useful just that it only entangles the round it is cast while web does so continuously. Web is also a 2nd lvl spell while entangle is a 1st lvl. Both have their uses, one is just better than the other
@@ogrebattler I think we agree, but I would not have phrased it using "better than," as that sounds more like "Web is strictly better than Entangle" than "Web has slightly more utility/slightly wider applicability than Entangle." Fireball is strictly better than Shatter, given its more favorable save, larger AOE, and much higher damage. Yes, fire damage and rigid materials get disadvantage--though the latter isn't relevant when contructs have massive CON and low DEX--but the difference is too wide to make up. Web is not strictly better than Entangle.
@@pondrthis1 we do agree for the most part I think as well, in my opinion web is objectively better all around then entangle, point one: web causes a saving throw every round a creature is in its area, entangle does not. Point 2 versatility: web can be used anywhere even in mid air(though it does become useless after 1 round if it has no anchor points it does still cause one save), entangle requires plants to be present. Granted not that hard to work around this one. Point 3: web does disappear if burned away, but causes additional fire damage to creature in area of burning web. Entangle while not specifically stated that it can be removed via fire I would argue that since it is plant based that a fireball spell could get rid of it just as well as the plants would start on fire
I recommend having a variety of control spells with different saving throws. Don't only run spells that requires wisdom saves to avoid/break out of, you need something to use when that isn't effective.
Interesting selection, though I guess that it mostly has to do with your definition on a control spell. For me, a control spell is a spell that dictates what you enemies are capable of, and what options you shut off. For first level, my favorite is earth tremor, cause it's non concentration and creates difficult terrain allowing you to control the movement of ground based enemies. As an honorable mention is dissonant whispers because location on the battlefield is huge. For 2nd I fancy arcane lock, to separate enemies and force them to take different routes. For 3rd, if you have setup time, leomands tiny hut creates a bunker that can't be destroyed except by a disintegrate, and people can step out, fire spells and arrows and step back in. If you don't have setup time, sleet storm is phenomenal. Huge aoe, cause saves every round to fall prone, it's difficult terrain so melee units are boned, it's heavily obscured so ranged units can't attack and spellcasters suffer too, AND it forces a con save from no damage for enemy spellcasters to maintain concentration. Invulnerability won't save you now! Yeah, that spell has saved my players so many times when enemy reinforcements start to show up. For 4th I'm partial to wall of fire, cause sure if the enemy really wants to run through it they can, but that requires desperation or some serious gall. For 5th, wall of force is my favorite spell in the game, but don't you dare underestimate the power of Transmute Rock. 4:1 movement, and if they end their turn in the mud they become restrained, and it takes an action for them to pull themselves out... oh, and it's not concentration, and it can destroy battlements such as castle walls.
@@lancekearns948 I'm going to assume that since both are concentration you did this with an ally. My own reasoning would be as follows. If the reverse gravity happened first and you cast web on them they would be restrained up there. If the web was cast first, then the reverse gravity was cast on them, I would say they are not effected by the reverse gravity till they are no longer restrained by the web, and then get no save to stop from falling up unless there was something other than the web to catch a hold of.
I love your vids guys, it helped reignite my love for dnd. Just one tiny addition to everything you said, if you play a Lore Master Wizard, you can choose what saving throw a creature must make...Sleet Storm as an intelligence saving throw for example devastating. Thanks for all your hard work.
An Artificer at level 11 can store a whole bunch of Web spell charges in an item using their spell storing item ability. This can easily be 8 or 10 uses of web cast by another creature. Even their homunculus servant could use the item while flying about.
Circle of the moon druid as an earth elemental + Whirlwind. Cast whirlwind, transform as your bonus action, and sink beneath the earth. You can keep concentration while transformed and the earth elemental having tremorsense allows you to keep the whirlwind on top of your targets as long as they aren't airborne
When your spellcaster class is a homebrew where you have to inhale magical dust to cast spells.. I'm not kidding that is what my character is in our campaign XD
Command is definitely my favorite one. While it is limited to one turn if you are creative enough it can go for way more. Flee is the obvious one. They spend all their turn running away so they need another full turn to come back. However, my favorite one is strip. They take of their armor so their ac goes to 0, They need at least one hand to strip so they have to drop their weapon if it is one-handed or drop one of their weapons if they have 2 one-handed weapons. All of this plus the turn wasted is just amazing.
The enemy wouldn't take off their armor - they would *start* to take off their armor, as it takes 1-5 minutes to fully doff armor. They would likely drop their weapon and their shield if they have one to do so though, reducing their AC by 2, but even if they happened to be wearing cast-off armor that could be removed as an action their AC would never be 0 - it would be 10+DEX mod.
I'm pretty new to D&D so far and have only played a few games... But my favorite moment thus far was using thunderwave to keep shoving a boss out of their safety circle (they were damaged if outside it) over and over again. It was hilarious
I had a wizard in my party use Wall of Force to collar an Ancient Black Dragon and keep it grounded. From that point, the fight was just a no-holds-barred beatdown. That poor dragon......
@@stevenseufert2520 He was already on the ground(his lair was submerged underneath a marsh). The wall was just small enough to put him in the spot where he couldn't get his head out, and since the wall is immobile he couldn't really fly away. Definitely more of a Rule of Cool type scenario rather than RAW, but our DM rolled with it. He was the sort to celebrate creative use of spells
My bard used Plant Growth to lock down the enemy team in a large arena fight and we easily picked them off with our bows as they tried to rush in and close the distance. My character was out of the 60 ft range to be counter-spelled by the enemy spell caster and we picked him off first. Plant Growth uses no concentration and it's permanent so you can't even dispell it. Important to note, it' doesn't create difficult terrain it makes 1 foot of movement cost 4 feet so even rangers are slowed. As a bonus, you can use the 8-hour version of the spell for RP purposes and ask farmers if they would like to double their harvest to either make some money and/or be celebrated as a local hero.
I'm new to D&D and this channel had given me so much helpful information. I love it! Great job and can't wait to catch up on all your videos and see what new ones you come up with.
on benefit of banishment too, is you can put a trap where the target is going to come back. So they return with their friends dead, surrounded, and with a bear trap biting their leg.
Even if your DM doesn't think that the target's return would trigger the trap, you can still place Wall of Fire, Grease, Web, etc. on the spot to make taking them out simple.
It really should but as a constant druid player I honestly find Entangle better: 1st lv instead of 2nd lv, early enough for you to trap all those goblins and kobolds with bad str saves and good dex saves. Same size, also difficult terrain, also flammable and same condition.
I killed an adult red dragon with a wall of force... My party was ambushed by a red dragon after the BW and a few rounds in combat it took to the sky so i polymorph into a Red Dragon and give chase meeting him in dragon melee thousands of feet in the sky my party members watching two red specks collide far overhead. But it a real dragon so it tears my fake ass up in 3 runs it's clear im going to lose this fight hp is real low. I drop early falling from the sky reverting to my wizard form and soon find myself at terminal velocity with a POed RD swooping down towards me gaining ground going to catch up in 2 rounds still above 1000 ft. So i ask the DM is it going faster than terminal velocity? To which he said yes what do you do? I cast wall of force about 5 ft. In front of the dragon, with a big ass grin on my face... it took 26d6 damage because terminal velocity is 20d6. Snapped its neck fast. So i float down with Feather fall torn to shreds no sign of the dragon just a speck of red unmoving in the sky. Dismissing that wall as the party starts to move on and allowing the dragon to crash to the ground as the party walks on like bad asses with a dead dragon in a dust cloud in the background epic moment so sweet, until the ranger ruins my epic moment of glory and runs back to "harvest the teeth, ckaws, scales, and head for mounting" grrrrr... just walk away like a bad ass bro but no...
I also like that Banish allows for a "you came to the wrong neighborhood" situation where you banish someone then everyone gets in position, drops other localized effects where the enemy will return, and then readies actions to jump them when they come back, lol.
You made a mistake in this video. Its one that many players make, but is a big one none the less. You described Web as having a radius of 20 ft. This is incorrect. Radius a straight line from the center to the circumference of a circle or sphere. Web is a cube, and therefore doesn't have a radius. This isn't just nitpicking, because spells that say they create a radius of a certain distance actually cover twice that much space. So while Web creates a 20 ft cube and covers 20 ft of space, Darkness creates a 15 ft radius sphere and covers 30 ft. I'm not saying Web isn't good. I'm saying that your Fireballs are probably half as large as they should be.
@@DungeonDudes, Darkness is also a good spell, since it can follow a single enemy around the battlefield with no save against blindness until you want to deal with them.
@@HuchiaZ Clever idea, but there are a lot of problems with it. The darkness is blocked if placed under an opaque object. So if you slip it into a pocket or bag, the darkness gets covered. Mage Hand takes an action to cast and an action to move (or bonus to move if AT). So 1 action to cast Darkness, 1 to cast Mage Hand, and another action to use Mage Hand. Then, because the Darkness follows the object, I'd make you roll with disadvantage to try and plant it on someone. Because first you have to fine them in the dark, then you have to slight of hand without being able to see. But I do like the Mage Handing a Darkness item idea. Fun control strategy for an Arcane Trickster. Keep the Dark item in the Mage Hand, and any time they leave the sphere, move them back into it as a bonus action.
I know you limited the list to 5th level and down, for usability reasons. But, rituals don't consume slots... Forbiddance, from the Cleric list, is pretty amazing. Obviously, it is defensive in nature. But control is control, and the combination of huge area, long duration, no concentration and no slots has GOT to earn honorable mention.
@@M0ebius not control? Can't teleport or plane shift, and every round inside (of the target creature type) takes damage... That's essentially a giant version of Spike Growth, which is a powerful area denial spell. Area denial is a "to whom it may concern" type of control, versus the targeted type. No less control though.
Christian Swensen Sorry but that is waaaay too niche. You’re not controlling anything on the battlefield when any enemy willing to eat some damage can just walk up to you and smash your face in. Spike Growth on the other hand at least provides some difficult terrain to slow them down.
That's your perspective. I disagree. I think that forcing opponents that want to fight you to march through a large area that causes unavoidable damage every round and can be maintained indefinitely is pretty powerful control. You say, eat some damage. But 5d10 per round w/o a save means that minions will have trouble even getting to you to fight, and anything short of demon lords or devas will be on a short timer. That's all w/o concentration, or even burning a slot. Hell, you don't even have to be present.
Christian Swensen Look, the spell definitely has its uses, but it’s far more situational than the spells on this list. Without some sort of external pressure enemies can just wait it out or missile you to death. You can’t really “force” the enemy to do anything within the scope of the spell. Also the only real deterrant is the damage, which makes it more of an AOE than control. The area also might not as big as you think, since 40000 square feet is just 200x200. Notice that all of the other spells on their list straight up disable or restrain the enemies, which is more in line with what a control spell is.
I'd like to mention plant growth. It does not require concentration, can exclude your allies and creates 100ft radius of more than difficult terrain. Like web, it will be much better against a group of melee foes, but they're basically stuck there and you can run away.
Sooo if i am an acrane trickster my dmg and dnf is gonna be so high Hideous laughter i can incaptitate a foe then stab the others so thats nice, and it could be a distration
I love how you teased out the sudden language of how many rollouts a spell grants. That’s something I am just learning the importance of. Also love how you point out how many burly monsters are bad in charisma. Very exploitable in a dungeon of dangerous foes. Finally, I’m discovering concentration is huge thing. And finding spells that can augment whatever you are concentrating on is huge. With that I would content that banishment for the mid-level of wizard is too much of a 4th level spell slot to waste for something that comes back most of the time. Many battles are single APL enemies rather than hordes so it does nothing for them to come back. If they are fey, fiend, celestial, having 1st level protection against good and evil prepared nerfs them substantially against the melee barbarian/fighter/paladin/etc and everyone else can shot/cast at will. And barbs take half damage if raging. I have personally found upcasting blindness to 4th over three additional enemies giving them disadvantage one attack + advantage to get attacked is nasty and now up to munches of enemies are hurting to hit and getting shredded easily. I might be wrong but I think it is something to consider. Banishment only shines for the other planar single monster and if it makes it save you are out a 4th level slot.
Wall of Force is great but I think you are over estimating how "ultimate" it is in terms of battlefield control....if you are casting 5th level spells for wall of force, it is highly likely an enemy spell caster is casting 6th level spells which means disintegrate. No saving throw needed the wall just disappears. So yes you costed the spell caster 1 turn and a 6th level spell which is good but you lost a turn and a 5th level spell so the exchange isnt that big of one....especially when you compare it to successfully banishing the target, holding them, etc which could last multiple turns and takes lower level spells to do.
If I used a WoF spell to try and control the field, and the enemy used a sixth level spell to defeat my attempt, I think I've traded excellent battlefield control, for an excellent defense for my party, and it alerts me to how powerful an opponent is. So I think I would disagree on the value of the exchange. I do agree however, that there is value in accomplishing things with lower level spells/spell slots.
@@Milshare You just repeated what I said and said you disagree more or less. If you feel its a good exchange I hope you do it and feel good about it. However the actual in action math shows it being less useful by spell level to produce the effect and number of rounds it will be effective.....so is it a win? Yes. (( Is it battlefield control? Not really...the target can still move after casting the disintegrate so all it did was cost their action and the spell slot. So in essence it is causing a utility effect in resource management but it is not causing battlefield control. )) Is it as big of a win as using a lower level spell slot that can cause battlefield control for multiple rounds? No. And again...I reiterate....you should assume an enemy spell caster has 6th level magic if your party is wielding 5th level magic. Shouldn't need a WoF to test the enemies power.
Also wall of force doesn’t really do anything to actually hurt a foe so all you are really doing is delaying the enemy a bit unless of course you are retreating but that leaves lose ends and a good dm will use them against you.
Perfect list, right down to the honorable mentions. I love Web/Hypnotic Pattern on a Sorcerer with Careful Spell to eliminate friendly fire. Twinned Spell Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is also good on a Sorcerer dipping Bard for getting a ton of bang for the buck. A couple of Honorable Mentions I’d like to add: from the cantrip spot, Eldritch Blast with the Repelling Blast invocation, the most consistent and reliable way to move enemies around the battlefield (and deals a huge amount of damage with Agonizing Blast); also Dissonant Whispers, a soft control that can also triggers a lot of Opportunity Attack damage if played tactically (my favorite being War Caster+Booming Blade).
My favorite control combo (which I haven't actually gotten a chance to use) is plant growth and transmute rock. Super slow movement that stacks with difficult terrain, restrained condition that requires an action to break out of, plus they're both indefinite effects with no concentration so you can pile a concentration-based control spell on top of that.
Do you think the Wizard remains the master of battlefield control in 5e, or does another class have an edge over them we might be overlooking?
Bard. Enough said
I think their large number of spells known and spell options pushes them over the edge, but shouldn't dismiss the sorcerer with their metamagics around spell saves. Makes them really good at whichever control spell they are able to pick up.
Why didn't you guys mention slow? Did you forget about it or is there some fatal flaw I'm missing?
Great video, by the way. Thanks for making awesome content!
@Flopmind we consider Slow a debuff, not a control spell. It's a really good spell regardless.
I think the strength of the Wizard, as always, is the ability to adjust to so many different demands. That said, there are classes that can be built into better controllers. They just don't have the flexibility of the massive spell list. One of the things that makes a controller effective is the ability to maintain concentration. Sorcerers, with CON save proficiency, have an obvious advantage there. Another thing that's worth mentioning, is that the most effective form of control is avoidance, in that it negates any further handling of the situation. As such, spells that aren't traditionally considered control, like Pass Without Trace, can be game changers. Hard control, like Tasha's, probably goes to the Bard. Area denial probably goes to the Druid or Cleric. The Sorc and Wiz come in as a mix, with the Sorc's strength being metamagic and CON saves and the Wiz's strength being sheer volume of options.
So, in a game where mobs of mooks are the enemy, area denial is key and your Druid is probably going to be the go-to.
In a game where each encounter is centered around a single BBEG and a coupe minions, hard control is more likely to be valuable, so your Bard is probably the winner.
In a long campaign or series of different campaigns, where the caster has to reinvent himself numerous times and simply cannot sit in a single role, the Wizard becomes the clear winner.
Do you know what I love about this channel?
1- They go to the point. It is not forced just to be longer. They make a small intro and start talking about what matters.
2- they dont do weird faces that show on the thumbnails.
3- The quantity and quality of humor is just right to this kind of video.
4- they seem to know the game.
Exactly!
Ouch :/
yes i agree, they also preface a lot of their choices as being..well...THEIR choices. Saying that there might be other viable options, or even options that might be better but they overlooked. they don't act like they know it all, they just give their opinion, say it's jsut their opinion and motivate it (with valid arguments :P)
too bad there's no sleet storm though...i just love it, huge area with difficult terrain, enemies can't see anything,... but i do get why'd you go for hypnotic pattern for 3rd level
i much prefer these types of vids over stuff like...taking20, which is often just... plain wrong, opinions worded as facts, ... (not that taking20 is bad...dungeon dudes are just better :P)
Like any DM who takes their craft seriously, they always try to improve and grow. The same applies to this channel, as most of the points you mention are traits of a good "UA-camr" or "Content creator." They are serious about it, and work to improve. Many content creators will tell you the value of a brief intro, and how to stick to the point. How some may use click bait thumbnails, but most audiences would rather not have their intelligence insulted, etc.
The parallels between DM'ing and Content Creation are numerous, in fact. People's time is valuable and they aren't obligated to give it to you. It used to be easier to be a poor DM, because you might've been the only game in town, but now there's a community. Passionate DM's find loyal players. Similarly a UA-cam audience can be watching anything, so if you want some of that precious eyeball time you have to care about your craft, and aim for quality. Passionate content creators find a loyal audience. Both fields know too well that without an audience, you're just a sad fellow talking to himself.
Sorry, that went on too long. I tend not to comment, because I break into treatises, but I honestly really appreciate these guys.
"Seem"
Let me tell you a fun story about Tasha's Hideous laughter. So our party was hired to assassinate a guy. We would get paid more if we did it quietly. We shadowed the guy for a while and discovered his routine, 23 hours at his near impenetrable fortress, and about an hour overseeing shipments at the nearby docks. Naturally, we decided to ambush him at the docks, but docks are crowded and have guards. We were confident we could get out of line of sight from most guards / pedestrians, but no one had silence. I had a bit of a grappling build, so I had the idea that we could do a running tackle and get the fight underwater. This ends up being the plan we go with, and within seconds of rolling initiative, splish splash we're in the water.
For those of you who haven't had the joy of fighting underwater, let me save you some time. It is awful. Everyone has disadvantage on everything basically. Thankfully, we bypassed this by the bard casting Tasha's Hideous Laughter on the guy once he was underwater. The funny thing about laughing is it isn't possible to hold your breath at the same time. They poor guy passed out and died after 20 or so seconds, didn't have to do a single point of damage to him. And that is the story of how Terri got a Flame-tongue greatsword.
Did you cast Tasha’s Hideous Laughter on me? Because I was dying after reading your story.
I have dropped jaws from party members who see me use it to to bring Dragon encounters from terrifying to a complete joke lol! It's so good for creative situations like yours!
Was the bard underwater as well? Because then id ask how he cast it xD but aside from that small fact... that an hilarious way of assassinating someone!
Demoulius So hilarious, even he’s laughing.
@@AllToastersToastToast goddamnit.... Have a like sir xD
My party used a wall of force to trap a powerful enemy with a tiefling monk with blindsight who cast darkness on the area. We called it Elm Street.
I had a similar moment with a cube of force... The party (a Monk, Paladin and Cleric) put a high level Oathbreaker Paladin in the cube and then put him in the no-no corner. It was a very quick fight...
Lmao.... My party was in a arena fight, and Our monk casted silence, our warlock sickening radiance, and I casted wall of force around all of it. We call it the "microwave", and sometimes still use it. Silence makes it pretty much impossible to teleport out, and the sickening radiance exhaustion just melts through people.
3:00 "Damage that never happened in the first place doesn't have to be healed up" should be the motto of Battlefield Control Builds.
Ehh, not really. That slogan's just as applicable to damage dealers and AC tanks who respectively try to kill enemies before they get attacks in and waste enemy attacks by dodging them.
"Divide and conquer" is your classic slogan for control builds.
Plant Growth for the win. It doesn't require concentration, is permanent, covers a ONE HUNDRED FOOT RADIUS and THERE IS. NO. SAVE. So it doesn't matter if you are a goblin or a Tarrasque, it still gets you. A creature in the area with 30 feet of movement can only cover 6 feet with their move, so you have all day to pick them off. You can even shape the area to leave your allies out of the effect. It actually controls the battlefield, not a monster or two.
The downside of that spell is it doesn't work in an area without existing plants.
@@kodahansen8080 But that is never a surprise is it? With other spells, creature can have an immunity or resistence you don't know about (or forgot) or they can simply roll high on a save and POOF, there goes your spell. In my game last night, the bard cast Hypnotic Pattern on a group, but forgot they were drow, so they had advantage on the save. They passed and the spell (and suprise) was wasted. That never happens with Plant Growth, because you know whether or not there are plant present and if you aren't sure asking the DM to describe the scene doesn't require a roll.
@@StilltheAp0llyon Could you carry a pouch of seeds? Or perhaps small flowers? To scatter as a target for plant growth?
@@supercalifragic1551, carry a grape vine stem with either a bag of soil or a small pouch of Heward's Handy Haversack filled with dirt. A single grape plant can cover an entire vineyard, and thus the entire area of the spell several feet deep in vines. You should see the pictures of Grand Canyon areas that are overgrown with Arizona grape vine. It goes all the way up the canyon walls. Kudzu also works well for this purpose, but I'd feel bad unleashing that invasive species on any ecosystem... It's eaten the southern USA. Also, grapevines can make food.
I once did this in an Egyptian-Style crypt and used plant growth to seal several horizontal sarcophagus shut. I hate mummies.
@@StilltheAp0llyon, carry a grape vine stem with either a bag of soil or a small pouch of Heward's Handy Haversack filled with dirt. A single grape plant can cover an entire vineyard, and thus the entire area of the spell several feet deep in vines. You should see the pictures of Grand Canyon areas that are overgrown with Arizona grape vine. It goes all the way up the canyon walls. Kudzu also works well for this purpose, but I'd feel bad unleashing that invasive species on any ecosystem... It's eaten the southern USA. Also, grapevines can make food.
I once did this in an Egyptian-Style crypt and used plant growth to seal several horizontal sarcophagus shut. I hate mummies.
Really liking the decision to look at 5th level and lower spells in these "best spell" guides because I've played so many games that die out before even having those higher level spells available. You guys are awesome at what you do.
I agree. 4th level and lower are really the meat and potatoes of gaming. Lot of utility and recasting of the same level spell going on. Also, higher level spells are so powerful you are really only casting them once or maybe twice a day to snap your fingers and Thanos someone away, lol
If you're looking for the TL;DW:
4:12 Tasha's Hideous Laughter
7:51 Web
11:33 Hypnotic Pattern
15:04 Banishment
18:32 Wall of Force
22:09 Honorable Mentions
Dungeon Dudes ty
Wish. Wish is the best.
Honorable Mentions should become a spell by now.
Sleep has no saving throw.
It is supposed to be used at the end of a fight and not the beginning. Against high hp monsters.
No spoilers please :p
"They're trapped in there with the barbarian!"
That invisible wall isn't going to be invisible for much longer then... By round four it will probably be solid red, or whatever other color of blood the critter may have...
underrated comment
My favorite use of Force Wall was keeping a cave in from collapsing on the party as we escaped a secret Mind-Flayer base hidden in a cave. As we ran to the door, with out squidly friends on our tail, I dropped the spell and crushed a great deal of them when the rocks fell. Quite literally, Rocks Fall, Everybody dies.
In my first time ever DMing a 5e game (2nd time ever DMing) my all new players to DnD in their first session were on an airship being attacked by aarakocra bandits like 1,000 feet in the air. One of my players, a Ancient One Warlock, cast Tasha's hideous laughter on one of the bandits still flying over the edge of the ship and he failed the save. The bandit immediately fell out of sight of the players. The rest of the battle played out over the next 3 turns. I kept rolling the save for the bandit as he was falling and he kept failing. After the battle was over my Warlock player asked did that guy who fell out of the sky die. I rolled one last save for him, failed, and died as he hit the ground. I told the player you lose concentration on the spell as the bandit splatters across the ground and the whole table cheered in laughter.
D: How sadistic!
Haha... Dead
So his character told a joke so bad it literally killed someone? man i would milk this all campaign.
Gamerkam Because I’m fun at parties I’m going to mention that an aarakocra would almost certainly have a non-fatal terminal velocity if they were capable of flight especially if their limbs were flailing in laughter so the bandit would definitely not have died. Oh boy am I fun at parties.
@@alienplatypus7712 true if physics were something DnD rules accounted for but based on the rules of the game anything falling more than 10 feet takes falling damage and there are no rules stating aaracokra are an exeption to this rule. even on all ones there is no way a CR 1/4 creature could take that much falling damage and live even if they were somehow a barbarrian that was raging. Im fun at parties too.
"As a spellcaster you're going to have a wide array of spells to choose from"
Warlock: Excuse me?
bear with me here. Drow celestial patron pact of the tome. Cantrips forever.
Fun control spells for Warlocks can include Hunger of Hadar and Evards Black Tentacles for lower levels, with Mental Prison and Maddening Darkness as good options for your Mystic Arcanum. These are great for compounding damage too if you use your eldritch blast to keep knocking enemies back into them!
They said spellcaster not pact magician
Sorcerer sobs quietly in the corner.
@@FuelDropforthewin I mean, Divine Soul Sorcerer has the largest spell list in the game.
I know you guys weren't going for high level abilities, but a wizard with school of illusion is unmatched for battlefield control. By the 14th level they get illusory reality, which means they can use Silent Image to create cages/walls/whatever and make them real. By the 18th level if they pick Silent Image as one of their spells to cast as a cantrip, they can literally cantrip cages on top of everyone. Not quiet as awesome as wall of force, but the shear re-usability is amazing.
I'm playing an illusionist right now, and I think things might get pretty interesting at level eleven. That's when I can upcast major image at level six to make it permanent. With malleable illusions, I can carry around this illusionary multi-tool that I doesn't require concentration and I can change around at will. A well-placed illusion can cause enemies to waste a couple turns on a distraction, which I count as a pretty good form of battlefield control.
Step 1 fill a 5x5 cube with 432,000 caltrops
Step 2 THUNDERWAVE!
Welcome to the Matrix, Neo!
@@godsamongmen8003 Have done this before. My suggestion is to keep extra illusions inside your bag of holding. You essetially have infitine out of combat illusions without using resources and it can be useful not to have to use your action to reposition the illusions.
Hmmm, is it posibble to create a diamond, pearl, gold, or any material components for others spellcaster to cast spell? Such as a diamond to cast Raise Dead and Resurrection. If that possible, it would really help a party a lot
Whenever I see or use Tasha's hideous laughter I always remember the monty phyton world funniest joke sketch. That spell is essentially a nerfed version of the thing.
Funny you should say that since that is exactly where the spell originally came from.
I cracked up over "The Playpen" XD
"Trap them in the Wall of Force with the barbarian. We call it the 'playpen.'"
I'm dying xD
A Fighter with their Action Surge intact or the Paladin works too.
Or just trap them by themselves then cast Cloud of Daggers. It’s a blender!
Spike growth can destroy low level melee armies
In my experience as a druid, it can pretty much single handedly take out a zombie apocalypse in a town. Just get over chokehold, cast it there, and watch every zombie hilariously kill itself as it tries to get you. One cast got me a couple hundred kills.
Add that shove action
And it can force enemies to take the long way to get your party, or force them into a choke point.
Cast grease right in front of it
(This is a reference)
+thunderwave
Been playing a Warlock for a while now. 1st lvl Faerie fire has done so much for my team facing those slightly overpowerd for their chalangerating enemies.
My Sorceress loves Wall of Force. Bubble a Dragon, fight the rest. Thank you, Staff of Power.
I love your guy's content so much, very informative without the side effect that some DnD channels get, as in acting like they are god among us who just simply want to learn. It is relieving to learn from someone who does not want you to rip and tear their skull off barbarian rage style.
100% agree. No elitist attitudes from these guys that I have been able to detect. That is so greatly appreciated.
Great list guys! All really good spells. I might like the hold person/monster spells a bit less than you, otherwise, it's pretty much identical to what I would choose. Some other low level battlefield control spells I think are very good: Fog Cloud, Sleet Storm, Fear, Slow, Bigby's Hand and Watery Sphere
We're honored to have the great Treantmonk weigh in on our picks!
Glad to see you doing well on UA-cam, too! Keep up the great work.
@@DungeonDudes Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere is also a good 4th level control spell, not as good as Banishment in most cases, but it can be more useful in some circumstances as it targets Dex, so better for an Illithid for example.
@@DungeonDudes Thanks guys, I'm enjoying your channel, of the D&D channels I watch, yours is my favorite! Well thought out analysis, and you two have great on camera chemistry.
@@DungeonDudes I eagerly await the inevitable collaboration.
@@TreantmonksTemple Ditto !
Just the other day I used Spike Growth to great effect against a band of charging Orcs, our Ranger and other ranged characters could pick off enough to make the fight easy, fun times :)
“Talk about the killing joke” that. That broke me.
My list:
5. Scatter (EXTREMELY underrated)
4. Hypnotic Pattern
3. Web
2. Plant Growth
1. Wall of force
- Innkeeper Vase Odin
Good to see Web on here. That spell is seriously under-rated
Probobly unpopular opinion but Sleet storm is one of my favs when it comes to crowd control if you want to have some distiance in combat and if you have a druid that throws entangle on top of that good luck on getting out that . Heard this combo somewhere months ago may eaven have been here idk .
I am with you on Sleet Storm. Very underrated spell that does some serious work. The main selling point for me is that it works wonders against enemy casters, who tend to trump a lot of battlefield control. Hag covens probably have nightmares about this spell.
Sleet Storm is awesome only downside is the obscured vision effects you as well.
@@elmospasco5558 My last character was a tempest cleric and loved this spell, which he gets for his domain.
The big problem is that it hurts your own party just as much. If you just want to get away, this spell would be great. But I'm honestly having trouble deciding whether I should take this at level 5, and how I would use it effectively in a way that doesn't screw my party.
It was on a nerdarchy vid only know cause I watch it last week :)
Could we get a video on low level spells that scale well? :o
great idea
@@elgatochurro Sleep does Not scale well. XD
@@elgatochurro Monster HP scales way too fast unfortunately, so Sleep falls behind the curve _very_ quickly and upcasting it doesn't give enough of a guaranteed increase to reliably work. I had a player try to use Sleep upcast to throw at some CR 1 or 2 mobs and couldn't put any of them to sleep even with the dice being nice about it.
Armor of agathys
@@elgatochurro I should've rephrased... It didn't work well in my campaign I tried to play in because the DM's doubled the # of hit-dice of all monsters... thought that'd be "fun".
4:35 It's Word's funniest joke from monty python.
Polimorph + Any kind of earth moving spell to bury them alive.
I had great moment with banishment.
Mad sorcerer summoned powerful demon(that one was ment to be big boss).
I had banishment ready.
Boss defeated in one turn.
This is why anything that should be considered a boss or main antagonist should have legendary resistance.
I had a similarly awesome situation with the final boss from Storm King's Thunder. Held off on my highest level slot for something big, which came when it used it's final legendary action to prevent a stun from our monk, just before dropping her as it's legendary action. I, as the only party member still standing, cast polymorph and successfully turned it into a mouse. Which I unceremoniously placed in a pouch that I cinched tight and threw into an incredibly deep pit in the back of it's lair, killing it. We 100% wiped if it saved as all I had left were first level slots and about a quarter of my hit points.
Huh, that's a brilliant idea! The polymorphed form would be able to hold its breath under the earth for 1+CON mod minutes, then runs out of breath and survives CON mod rounds longer before dropping to 0 hit points and reverting to its normal form, but at that point it's already out of air and has CON mod rounds (if even that) before it drops to 0 again and starts making death saves, and can't be stabilized or regain hit points until it can breathe again, so it's basically just a drawn-out WIS save against death as long as there's nobody trying to dig it out. Combo it with sleep so that it takes far less time and has no ability to dig itself out of the hole.
Well Monty Python's World Funniest Joke, killed people outright, so more like a Tasha's Flavored, Power Word: Kill.
I've been playing Solasta lately to get into D&D, and I've found that Hypnotic Pattern is just awesome. If I can get multiple enemies with it I'll then have the team focus on them one at a time. It can make a hard battle so much easier. Banishing a creature also helps a lot. Even if they do come back you take the enemy force down by one making it a lot easier, and by time they come back (if they do) you'll likely have killed a few enemies and now you can just all gang up on that one
I really like Watery Sphere personally, especially if you can catch another spell caster with it. If they try to cast a spell with a verbal component they will start drowning and be dead next round. I also used it as an air tight vehicle to move the party through some poison gas once.
Sebastian Crowe knows a thing or two about setting webs on fire
Every time a party member has responded to my hypnotic pattern with an area of affect spell I’ve wanted to cry. “Oh cool, you have them all frozen in a group; fireball!” “NOOOOOOOO!!!!”
Wall of force sounds like that spell that I’d use when I inevitably piss the barbarian off
One of my groups ended a big boss battle before it even began using Polymorph. We had to assault a cultists keep that had an enormous dire drake on top. We were trying to figure out the best way to infiltrate and take out the keep. I knew that we needed to deal with the drake first because it had control of the sky. One of the other players suggested dropping a rock on top of it from the cliff. We discovered that there were no rocks big enough to throw down. Then I remembered that I had Polymorph. I changed into a woolly mammoth and dropped into it. I dealt so much damage from the drop alone, and survived, that not only was the drake taken out, but I then proceeded to trample any cultists that survived the impact. The DM wasn't even able to ask for an initiative roll by the time the keep had been cleared.
This happened to me in a Pathfinder game I ran a long time ago (I believe it was Serpent's Skull). The group was ready to go into a major battle against a foe (I cannot remember who it was or when it happened, sorry about that), and one of the wizards in our group cast Polymorph Other on the BBEG. In Pathfinder, if memory serves, Polymorph Other changes the target into a squirrel unless it makes its save. He did so, and I rolled a 1 on the save. Combat over, as the rest of his lackeys ran away when they saw their leader turn into a helpless squirrel.
And if memory serves, Polymorph Other in Pathfinder is permanent unless a Dispel Magic is cast on it.
I love these options, and I personally have fallen in love with the Druid's Entangle and Spike Growth.
I understand they are more pointed towards lower level play or things that permanently grounded for that difficult terrain and bonus damage for the smaller foes that only have melee options.
I still completely agree with this list, but just wanted to voice my opinion on these great druid spells
I think that the College of Lore Bard beats out the Wizard as the master of battlefield control in 5e because they can have access to EVERY battlefield control spell (including Wall of Force) and also use Cutting Words as needed for some precision battlefield control in the very moment. What is more, the Bard can use their high charisma + proficiency + expertise in social skills to add an extra element to battlefield control that a wizard just can't compete with.
You'd be right if portant didn't exist
While it is a high level spell, antigravity is one of my absolute favorites. It essentially requires magical movement to escape, which at the very least requires a full action, and they still have to leave the area. It gets even better if you have fly speed, or combo it with traps and aoe.
I had a major Dragon villian catch all of the melee characters in an antigravity, then had free access to the backline, as few martial classes have any answer to antigravity.
my college of lore bard had all of the 5, plus poly, phantasmal force, and the mandolin that gives disadvantages to ST XD
Fantastic breakdown of spells guy, love your style of delivery too. Been watching alot of your vids over the last week or so and not once have I felt spoken down to, which is a rare commodity in D&D content sometimes!
I’m partial to the control spells that have additional versatility like Levitate, Polymorph, or Bigby’s. I like having options.
Levitate took a low level pc out of the fight once. It turned into a chase with me, having a rope around the levitating druid as my balloon
No mention of Slow? I've personally used it to decimate enemy Action Economy in my game. Sure they can repeat the saves at the end of each turn, but if you get 4-6 targets in it for a few rounds it cuts off multiattacks, potentially limits enemy spellcasters, removes the enemies' Attacks of Opportunity and reduces their speed and AC allowing your frontline to carve through them easier.
We consider Slow a debuff, rather than a control spell.
having watched critical role, i agree that slow is very, very useful (when it actually lands)
DM let me cast Dispel Magic on a summoned elemental. As I was casting it during the summoning, and was a 5 lv. Cleric, he dropped the CR from 9th to a 5th lv. elemental.
This is one of the reasons why I take 1 damage cantrip, 1 scaling damage spell from each level if there is one, at least 1 control spell from each level, and then everything else is utility with the only exception being if there is a unique damage type that is more rare. I would much rather have utility and control over damage when it comes to my spells due to how few casts of each spell I can get. Where as the cantrip (as long as it scales) is more or less my normal weapon and mundane weapons are only for either RP or for zones of no magic.
Man, I love seeing videos like this because many players would not believe how easy encounters can be made with tactical use of good control spells. So often, we try to build our characters to be the "most powerful," whether we mean to or not. But, trust me, as a veteran adventurer, it's most often the players which find good uses of their resources to shut down the opponents which truly shine in combat. I don't care if you dish out 5 times more damage than the rest of us; if the druid and wizard just found a way to trivialize most combat encounters before they begin, your min-maxed barbarian just became a useless sack of dead weight everybody else must now drag around
One combination I would like you to take note of is...
Maelstrom and Transmute Rock.
Usable by a single caster they can take out a large group.
Don't forget that Tasha is great against spellcasters. Its can be used to break concentration
Hey dudes, keep up the great job on the channel! I think one spell that deserves the list is Suggestion. "jump on one leg for 8 hours" or as once at the table my cleric had the big bad fire giant tell our party all he knew about his dragon boss while we killed his minions :)
Did an old one shot some years ago. I was playing a blackguard, and my friend was an earth cleric. We were assaulted by a couple of ogre sized demons, and he grew in size (can't remember the name of the spell), then grappled with it, and proceeded to earth glide (I think that is the right name) it into the ground, and left it there. I was blown away by that.
Sleep worth honorable mention for level 1 spell - its the king of level 1 at level 1 control spells, and the fact it doesn't give a save means even very high level enemies can be knocked out by a sleep spell - it starts out with 5d8 and gains +2d8 per level.at level 4 you can be dealing 11d8 hp "damage" against an enemy with often high AC, Legendary Resistances, etc.
Web - worth noting, you can cast on yourself against melee attackers to prevent them from getting close to you.
Yep! Gotta agree with you, although the one time I used Sleep was when I put a player's character to sleep. They were, uh... Getting a little trigger happy, so I made sure to roll as high as possible.
Totally worth it.
The DM at our table cast Sleep on our party sleeping 3 or 4 of our party, after we were having our fun stabbing an NPC with Hold Person getting off auto crits. They were struggling (I was on the other side of the room soloing half a dozen other monsters and doing great. They barely made it through with the skin of their teeth... I didn't have the heart to inform the DM that those would have been auto crits just like we were just barely enjoying with hold person. Would have been sooo dead, my character probably would have been the only one left alive (My character was very effective in the situation, a swarm of of lower HP enemies).
11d8 isn’t really that much though honestly. That’s only an average of 55 HP and a maximum of 88 HP, which against high level enemies isn’t enough to really do much
@@Takapon218 Ultimately it depends on the situation and the player. Sleep will more reliably remove a small number of enemies from the field 9d8 at level 3. Fireball will deal alot of damage in total but not necessarily kill anything 8d6.
bah humbug sleep will do a lot against a bunch of weak enemies sure
The original comment here was implying you could use it against HIGH LEVEL enemies though which is what I should have specified might not work
Fireball and sleep are both pretty good for wiping enemies off the field though, one just does so kind of peacefully and reversibly. :-) Fireball is good if you’re trying to get rid of a bunch of adds, even at higher levels, and scales a little better too since it doesn’t “use up” its damage so to speak.
I'm really surprised Grease wasn't mentioned... but otherwise good list.
My personnal >signature< spell. My wizard always carry a pork rib and when thing gets hot you can knock prone everyone
Grease...an incredibly creative spell that has given me and others laughs for decades!
In a session the other day the party was battling some enemies in a room with a large, 20 ft deep pit in the center. Long story short, someone casts grease, another party member slips in said grease and falls into the pit. Hearing the cries of pain from the pit, my character jumps in to try and save them. Failing the acrobatics check, I land directly on their head killing them instantly. My character, looking down at the terrible mess, whispers “I’m so sorry...”.
And isn't grease flammable? So while everyone is slipping around, just mic-drop a torch on it.
@@samueltheblonde up to dm discretion, by raw it isn’t as the spell doesn’t say it is like it does with other spells such as web
You missed an implication that makes Hideous laughter even better. I’m happy you mentioned the flying creatures going prone. Quick question, can you hold your breath while laughing? Hideous Laughter immediately starts the drowning process! Giving creatures that can’t breathe water a round or two before they drop to 0hp.
Happy New year's!
I enjoy these 'best thing for the thing' videos. Is there one for feats for spellcasters?
Not yet -- but we have covered feats like Elemental Adept and War Caster in detail
Archfey Warlock:
Plant Growth + Hunger of Hadar + Forceful Eldritch Blast + Devil’s Sight
Average movement of 30 will only be able to move 15 feet even with dash action. 20 foot radius, they go 15 feet out after taking damage, push 10 feet back in, take damage again and move out 15 feet. Point is you can push them back into the damage a lot of times, dealing a good amount of guaranteed damage and more if they fail Dex throws. Best of all Plant Growth means they won’t be going anywhere quickly. If the don’t use dash action, then they can only move 5 feet (7.5 rounded down).
My favorite way to use plant growth is to cast it on a wall cutting out areas of its effect to make my patron’s symbol across a giant 100 foot area. Yay, Vandalism in the name of the Archfey deity of Chaos.
Lol
I presume you're talking about Hunger of Hadar for that Devil's Sight? Hunger of Hadar isn't magical (or normal) darkness it's a physical void of blackness and inter-dimensional space.
ie; Imagine it more like a black Fog Cloud with tentacles.
Huh, well that’s okay.
I personally still think Plantgrowth is an amazing spell.
The one problem with Plant Growth that DMs and players forget is that plants have to be present. Urban, typical dungeon, elemental planes, high mountains, castles, the spell simply doesn’t work.
@@ericpreble674, bring a single grape vine stem planted in a bag of dirt. It's the only plant you need, as vines can spread a surprising distance when "overgrown". Now shape it as you please.
i honestly think the diviner can do a pretty nice battlefield controller, forcing bad roll to lose saving throw if needed
Guys, some of the best parts of your videos are when you give anecdotes of how a spell can be used creatively. You should do that more often!
My favorite D&D channel. Every video you put up is logical and well thought out. It is difficult to catch you mistakes, and for that, I salute you.
I’ve personally had a lot of success with entangle.
How about Levitate as an alternative to Hold Person? Not only does it leave two enemies flailing helplessly in the air for up to 10 minutes if you twin it, it is also a pretty good versatility spell?
That's the thing though. It's a good versatile spell, not a great control spell. It's the same reason polymorph was only an honorable mention. If you want two or more enemies out of the fight or helpless, there are better options at that level.
In the same way, enlarge/reduce are not very good buff/debuff spells, but are excellent toolbox spells. It's like comparing a Handheald hammer to a sledgehammer. A hand hammer can do various things, but if you want a big heavy thing on a stick, a sledgehammer is clearly the better choice.
It’s best way to keep the barbarian from charging at every single thing you encounter.
LOL... These guys... I've been playing DnD for 20 years, and been DMing for the last 12 on and off and I can't get over how serious these guys are with their explanation of battlefield control. It's like I'm watching an actual combat training video :D
Thank you for posting the clock reference point for each spell discussed. This helped me go back and relisten to certain sections. You guys rock!
Banishment is great, but it's still a runner up to slow at 4th level. You also seem to have a blind spot for spells which mix control with damage, like maelstrom, wrathful smite, and synaptic static.
Slow is a 3rd level spell, but we consider Slow a debuff, rather than a control spell.
@@DungeonDudes Right, 3rd it is. Been a while since I played my sorcerer. Thanks. Of course, it happens to be better than hypnotic pattern, too. The distinction between debuff and control seems a fine hair, but it's your video, so who am I to argue?
@@jonc.6046 Generally, when we consider a spell "control" it needs to trap a foe in place, and ideally prevent them from taking actions entirely. Creatures can still move, attack, and take actions while under the effects of Slow -- although they are greatly impaired. The benefit is that it's very easy for characters to continue attacking or damaging a foe affected by slow. The spells we choose mostly prevent creatures from moving or attack *at all*, but the trade off is that they usually can't be attacked either.
Jon C. Slow is definitely underrated, but it’s not better than Hypnotic Pattern mostly because HP is a one save total disable, whereas with Slow the targets get to save every turn while still taking an action.
@@M0ebius Hypnotic pattern is by no means a bad spell, but slow is useful in a much wider range of situations. Slow has selective targeting and a larger area, doesn't have charmed- and illusion-related limitations, and doesn't break on damage. Hypnotic pattern is only better against mobbed enemies standing apart from friendly characters--which also happens to be the ideal time for damage-dealing AoE--or, arguably, on a sorcerer with the careful spell metamagic.
The Druid is horrendously offended at this list.
Entangle>Web. It has a longer duration but can be dispelled with a CANTRIP. And is only very slightly easier to get out of.
Oh and did I mention that entangle is level one and Web is level two?
Unfortunately in 5th ed entangle only entangles on casting and doesn’t continue to try entangling for the duration of the spell, web does and on larger creatures it can do a lot of damage when set on fire
@@ogrebattler Entangle is a strength save and Web is a dex save. This is an important enough distinction for both to be useful.
@@pondrthis1 never said entangle wasn’t useful just that it only entangles the round it is cast while web does so continuously. Web is also a 2nd lvl spell while entangle is a 1st lvl. Both have their uses, one is just better than the other
@@ogrebattler I think we agree, but I would not have phrased it using "better than," as that sounds more like "Web is strictly better than Entangle" than "Web has slightly more utility/slightly wider applicability than Entangle."
Fireball is strictly better than Shatter, given its more favorable save, larger AOE, and much higher damage. Yes, fire damage and rigid materials get disadvantage--though the latter isn't relevant when contructs have massive CON and low DEX--but the difference is too wide to make up. Web is not strictly better than Entangle.
@@pondrthis1 we do agree for the most part I think as well, in my opinion web is objectively better all around then entangle,
point one: web causes a saving throw every round a creature is in its area, entangle does not.
Point 2 versatility: web can be used anywhere even in mid air(though it does become useless after 1 round if it has no anchor points it does still cause one save), entangle requires plants to be present. Granted not that hard to work around this one.
Point 3: web does disappear if burned away, but causes additional fire damage to creature in area of burning web. Entangle while not specifically stated that it can be removed via fire I would argue that since it is plant based that a fireball spell could get rid of it just as well as the plants would start on fire
I recommend having a variety of control spells with different saving throws. Don't only run spells that requires wisdom saves to avoid/break out of, you need something to use when that isn't effective.
20:30 is the best! "we call it the playpen". I'm dying right now! 🤣
Interesting selection, though I guess that it mostly has to do with your definition on a control spell. For me, a control spell is a spell that dictates what you enemies are capable of, and what options you shut off.
For first level, my favorite is earth tremor, cause it's non concentration and creates difficult terrain allowing you to control the movement of ground based enemies. As an honorable mention is dissonant whispers because location on the battlefield is huge.
For 2nd I fancy arcane lock, to separate enemies and force them to take different routes.
For 3rd, if you have setup time, leomands tiny hut creates a bunker that can't be destroyed except by a disintegrate, and people can step out, fire spells and arrows and step back in. If you don't have setup time, sleet storm is phenomenal. Huge aoe, cause saves every round to fall prone, it's difficult terrain so melee units are boned, it's heavily obscured so ranged units can't attack and spellcasters suffer too, AND it forces a con save from no damage for enemy spellcasters to maintain concentration. Invulnerability won't save you now!
Yeah, that spell has saved my players so many times when enemy reinforcements start to show up.
For 4th I'm partial to wall of fire, cause sure if the enemy really wants to run through it they can, but that requires desperation or some serious gall.
For 5th, wall of force is my favorite spell in the game, but don't you dare underestimate the power of Transmute Rock. 4:1 movement, and if they end their turn in the mud they become restrained, and it takes an action for them to pull themselves out... oh, and it's not concentration, and it can destroy battlements such as castle walls.
I once combined reverse gravity and then cast web on a creature...my DM didn't know what to then with his creatuer
@@lancekearns948 I'm going to assume that since both are concentration you did this with an ally. My own reasoning would be as follows. If the reverse gravity happened first and you cast web on them they would be restrained up there. If the web was cast first, then the reverse gravity was cast on them, I would say they are not effected by the reverse gravity till they are no longer restrained by the web, and then get no save to stop from falling up unless there was something other than the web to catch a hold of.
my level 8 arcane trickster uses grease, tasha's hideous laughter, and web for battlefield control.
Kilgore Trout I don’t like taking those kind of spells on Arcane Tricksters because the spell DC tend to be really low.
@@M0ebius i agree if you're using the standard but i got lucky rolling it up. My save dc is 15.
Hello, Kilgore. Same person I friended on Facebook? If so, then wow, I didn't realize you played D&D. Small world. 😉
I love your vids guys, it helped reignite my love for dnd. Just one tiny addition to everything you said, if you play a Lore Master Wizard, you can choose what saving throw a creature must make...Sleet Storm as an intelligence saving throw for example devastating. Thanks for all your hard work.
An Artificer at level 11 can store a whole bunch of Web spell charges in an item using their spell storing item ability. This can easily be 8 or 10 uses of web cast by another creature. Even their homunculus servant could use the item while flying about.
polymorph in general is one of the best spells just for how much you can do with it
wall of force with barbarian aka cage match "Bone saw is ready!"
Circle of the moon druid as an earth elemental + Whirlwind. Cast whirlwind, transform as your bonus action, and sink beneath the earth. You can keep concentration while transformed and the earth elemental having tremorsense allows you to keep the whirlwind on top of your targets as long as they aren't airborne
The leaps of logic with stealth mechanics in these videos never cease to amaze me. Goblin rolling on the ground laughing: Adventurer afoot!
When your spellcaster class is a homebrew where you have to inhale magical dust to cast spells..
I'm not kidding that is what my character is in our campaign XD
Please have to buy your magic dust from shady dudes in alleys...
Do you spice?
Command is definitely my favorite one.
While it is limited to one turn if you are creative enough it can go for way more.
Flee is the obvious one. They spend all their turn running away so they need another full turn to come back.
However, my favorite one is strip. They take of their armor so their ac goes to 0, They need at least one hand to strip so they have to drop their weapon if it is one-handed or drop one of their weapons if they have 2 one-handed weapons. All of this plus the turn wasted is just amazing.
The enemy wouldn't take off their armor - they would *start* to take off their armor, as it takes 1-5 minutes to fully doff armor. They would likely drop their weapon and their shield if they have one to do so though, reducing their AC by 2, but even if they happened to be wearing cast-off armor that could be removed as an action their AC would never be 0 - it would be 10+DEX mod.
I'm pretty new to D&D so far and have only played a few games... But my favorite moment thus far was using thunderwave to keep shoving a boss out of their safety circle (they were damaged if outside it) over and over again. It was hilarious
I just randomly stumbled upon your channel and I think it’s awesome and you will become one of The big channels one day I hope you get more subs
*Hideous Laughter is the new Banishment*
I had a wizard in my party use Wall of Force to collar an Ancient Black Dragon and keep it grounded. From that point, the fight was just a no-holds-barred beatdown. That poor dragon......
How would wrapping a Wall of Force around its neck keep it from flying?
@@stevenseufert2520 He was already on the ground(his lair was submerged underneath a marsh). The wall was just small enough to put him in the spot where he couldn't get his head out, and since the wall is immobile he couldn't really fly away. Definitely more of a Rule of Cool type scenario rather than RAW, but our DM rolled with it. He was the sort to celebrate creative use of spells
My bard used Plant Growth to lock down the enemy team in a large arena fight and we easily picked them off with our bows as they tried to rush in and close the distance. My character was out of the 60 ft range to be counter-spelled by the enemy spell caster and we picked him off first. Plant Growth uses no concentration and it's permanent so you can't even dispell it. Important to note, it' doesn't create difficult terrain it makes 1 foot of movement cost 4 feet so even rangers are slowed. As a bonus, you can use the 8-hour version of the spell for RP purposes and ask farmers if they would like to double their harvest to either make some money and/or be celebrated as a local hero.
Im going to be playing a bard thats filled with crowd control spells so im excited so this video will help me
We call it the playpen LMFAO
In an old pathfinder game, I did something similar with a halfling barbarian in my party, but we called it Thunder Dome.
@@Shichiaikan One barbarian enters. One barbarian leaves.
Predictions: Slow, hold person, wall spells (fire, force, light)
I only got one right
I'm new to D&D and this channel had given me so much helpful information. I love it! Great job and can't wait to catch up on all your videos and see what new ones you come up with.
on benefit of banishment too, is you can put a trap where the target is going to come back. So they return with their friends dead, surrounded, and with a bear trap biting their leg.
Even if your DM doesn't think that the target's return would trigger the trap, you can still place Wall of Fire, Grease, Web, etc. on the spot to make taking them out simple.
Shouldn't web also be a druid spell? I've been wondering for a while now and I still got no answer.
It really should but as a constant druid player I honestly find Entangle better: 1st lv instead of 2nd lv, early enough for you to trap all those goblins and kobolds with bad str saves and good dex saves. Same size, also difficult terrain, also flammable and same condition.
I killed an adult red dragon with a wall of force... My party was ambushed by a red dragon after the BW and a few rounds in combat it took to the sky so i polymorph into a Red Dragon and give chase meeting him in dragon melee thousands of feet in the sky my party members watching two red specks collide far overhead. But it a real dragon so it tears my fake ass up in 3 runs it's clear im going to lose this fight hp is real low. I drop early falling from the sky reverting to my wizard form and soon find myself at terminal velocity with a POed RD swooping down towards me gaining ground going to catch up in 2 rounds still above 1000 ft. So i ask the DM is it going faster than terminal velocity? To which he said yes what do you do? I cast wall of force about 5 ft. In front of the dragon, with a big ass grin on my face... it took 26d6 damage because terminal velocity is 20d6. Snapped its neck fast. So i float down with Feather fall torn to shreds no sign of the dragon just a speck of red unmoving in the sky. Dismissing that wall as the party starts to move on and allowing the dragon to crash to the ground as the party walks on like bad asses with a dead dragon in a dust cloud in the background epic moment so sweet, until the ranger ruins my epic moment of glory and runs back to "harvest the teeth, ckaws, scales, and head for mounting" grrrrr... just walk away like a bad ass bro but no...
I also like that Banish allows for a "you came to the wrong neighborhood" situation where you banish someone then everyone gets in position, drops other localized effects where the enemy will return, and then readies actions to jump them when they come back, lol.
Sleet Storm is also a fun spell to control the battlefield with, presuming your party isn't strictly melee but is also (or preferably) adept at range.
You made a mistake in this video. Its one that many players make, but is a big one none the less.
You described Web as having a radius of 20 ft. This is incorrect. Radius a straight line from the center to the circumference of a circle or sphere. Web is a cube, and therefore doesn't have a radius. This isn't just nitpicking, because spells that say they create a radius of a certain distance actually cover twice that much space. So while Web creates a 20 ft cube and covers 20 ft of space, Darkness creates a 15 ft radius sphere and covers 30 ft.
I'm not saying Web isn't good. I'm saying that your Fireballs are probably half as large as they should be.
We misspoke! We know Web is a cube -- we actually have spell templates we use in play for it. Check them out in our live games!
@@DungeonDudes, Darkness is also a good spell, since it can follow a single enemy around the battlefield with no save against blindness until you want to deal with them.
@@carsonrush3352 Unfortunately, you can only put Darkness on something that isn't being worn or carried.
@@DrLipkin however you can cast darkness on an object and then mage hand it onto a target
@@HuchiaZ Clever idea, but there are a lot of problems with it. The darkness is blocked if placed under an opaque object. So if you slip it into a pocket or bag, the darkness gets covered. Mage Hand takes an action to cast and an action to move (or bonus to move if AT). So 1 action to cast Darkness, 1 to cast Mage Hand, and another action to use Mage Hand. Then, because the Darkness follows the object, I'd make you roll with disadvantage to try and plant it on someone. Because first you have to fine them in the dark, then you have to slight of hand without being able to see.
But I do like the Mage Handing a Darkness item idea. Fun control strategy for an Arcane Trickster. Keep the Dark item in the Mage Hand, and any time they leave the sphere, move them back into it as a bonus action.
I know you limited the list to 5th level and down, for usability reasons. But, rituals don't consume slots...
Forbiddance, from the Cleric list, is pretty amazing. Obviously, it is defensive in nature. But control is control, and the combination of huge area, long duration, no concentration and no slots has GOT to earn honorable mention.
It’s a really cool spell, but it’s more of a giant AOE than a control spell.
@@M0ebius not control? Can't teleport or plane shift, and every round inside (of the target creature type) takes damage... That's essentially a giant version of Spike Growth, which is a powerful area denial spell. Area denial is a "to whom it may concern" type of control, versus the targeted type. No less control though.
Christian Swensen Sorry but that is waaaay too niche. You’re not controlling anything on the battlefield when any enemy willing to eat some damage can just walk up to you and smash your face in. Spike Growth on the other hand at least provides some difficult terrain to slow them down.
That's your perspective. I disagree. I think that forcing opponents that want to fight you to march through a large area that causes unavoidable damage every round and can be maintained indefinitely is pretty powerful control.
You say, eat some damage. But 5d10 per round w/o a save means that minions will have trouble even getting to you to fight, and anything short of demon lords or devas will be on a short timer. That's all w/o concentration, or even burning a slot. Hell, you don't even have to be present.
Christian Swensen Look, the spell definitely has its uses, but it’s far more situational than the spells on this list. Without some sort of external pressure enemies can just wait it out or missile you to death. You can’t really “force” the enemy to do anything within the scope of the spell. Also the only real deterrant is the damage, which makes it more of an AOE than control. The area also might not as big as you think, since 40000 square feet is just 200x200. Notice that all of the other spells on their list straight up disable or restrain the enemies, which is more in line with what a control spell is.
I'd like to mention plant growth. It does not require concentration, can exclude your allies and creates 100ft radius of more than difficult terrain. Like web, it will be much better against a group of melee foes, but they're basically stuck there and you can run away.
Sooo if i am an acrane trickster my dmg and dnf is gonna be so high
Hideous laughter i can incaptitate a foe then stab the others so thats nice, and it could be a distration
Divination Wizard + Banishment = bye bye
Great advice, and bonus cool points for the shout-out to Rorschach!
I love how you teased out the sudden language of how many rollouts a spell grants. That’s something I am just learning the importance of. Also love how you point out how many burly monsters are bad in charisma. Very exploitable in a dungeon of dangerous foes. Finally, I’m discovering concentration is huge thing. And finding spells that can augment whatever you are concentrating on is huge.
With that I would content that banishment for the mid-level of wizard is too much of a 4th level spell slot to waste for something that comes back most of the time. Many battles are single APL enemies rather than hordes so it does nothing for them to come back. If they are fey, fiend, celestial, having 1st level protection against good and evil prepared nerfs them substantially against the melee barbarian/fighter/paladin/etc and everyone else can shot/cast at will. And barbs take half damage if raging.
I have personally found upcasting blindness to 4th over three additional enemies giving them disadvantage one attack + advantage to get attacked is nasty and now up to munches of enemies are hurting to hit and getting shredded easily. I might be wrong but I think it is something to consider. Banishment only shines for the other planar single monster and if it makes it save you are out a 4th level slot.
Wall of Force is great but I think you are over estimating how "ultimate" it is in terms of battlefield control....if you are casting 5th level spells for wall of force, it is highly likely an enemy spell caster is casting 6th level spells which means disintegrate. No saving throw needed the wall just disappears. So yes you costed the spell caster 1 turn and a 6th level spell which is good but you lost a turn and a 5th level spell so the exchange isnt that big of one....especially when you compare it to successfully banishing the target, holding them, etc which could last multiple turns and takes lower level spells to do.
If I used a WoF spell to try and control the field, and the enemy used a sixth level spell to defeat my attempt, I think I've traded excellent battlefield control, for an excellent defense for my party, and it alerts me to how powerful an opponent is. So I think I would disagree on the value of the exchange. I do agree however, that there is value in accomplishing things with lower level spells/spell slots.
@@Milshare You just repeated what I said and said you disagree more or less. If you feel its a good exchange I hope you do it and feel good about it. However the actual in action math shows it being less useful by spell level to produce the effect and number of rounds it will be effective.....so is it a win? Yes. (( Is it battlefield control? Not really...the target can still move after casting the disintegrate so all it did was cost their action and the spell slot. So in essence it is causing a utility effect in resource management but it is not causing battlefield control. )) Is it as big of a win as using a lower level spell slot that can cause battlefield control for multiple rounds? No.
And again...I reiterate....you should assume an enemy spell caster has 6th level magic if your party is wielding 5th level magic. Shouldn't need a WoF to test the enemies power.
Also wall of force doesn’t really do anything to actually hurt a foe so all you are really doing is delaying the enemy a bit unless of course you are retreating but that leaves lose ends and a good dm will use them against you.
First my dungeon dudes
Perfect list, right down to the honorable mentions. I love Web/Hypnotic Pattern on a Sorcerer with Careful Spell to eliminate friendly fire. Twinned Spell Tasha’s Hideous Laughter is also good on a Sorcerer dipping Bard for getting a ton of bang for the buck.
A couple of Honorable Mentions I’d like to add: from the cantrip spot, Eldritch Blast with the Repelling Blast invocation, the most consistent and reliable way to move enemies around the battlefield (and deals a huge amount of damage with Agonizing Blast); also Dissonant Whispers, a soft control that can also triggers a lot of Opportunity Attack damage if played tactically (my favorite being War Caster+Booming Blade).
My favorite control combo (which I haven't actually gotten a chance to use) is plant growth and transmute rock. Super slow movement that stacks with difficult terrain, restrained condition that requires an action to break out of, plus they're both indefinite effects with no concentration so you can pile a concentration-based control spell on top of that.
I like using Hideous Laughter at wedding ceremonies on the groom as the bride walks out.