Why Some Train Enthusiasts HATE Flying Scotsman
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- Опубліковано 23 лют 2023
- 😬 Now for some controversy!
🚂 Why is The Flying Scotsman a love/hate figure amongst enthusiasts?
🟢 Some of the reasons might surprise you. We aim to find out why.
🟩 This video covers five things people love and hate about the engine.
🛤️ We cover it's globetrotting exploits, costs, records, and more!
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🛤️ Flying Scotsman in action: • Flying Scotsman | Up C...
🚂 Top 10 British Railways Standards: • Top 10 | British Railw...
🚆 66 Facts About The Class 66: bit.ly/3IShjzS
🔮 101 Facts - The Elizabeth line: • Elizabeth line | 101 F...
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📰 Wikipedia entry (Locomotive): bit.ly/3Etg1sx
📰 Wikipedia entry (train journey): bit.ly/3XShBej
📰 BBC Four Flying Scotsman documentary: bit.ly/3ErZB3j
📰 National Railway Museum history article: bit.ly/3Euf1nL
📰 NRM ‘how much is original’ article: bit.ly/3YRu0As
=ADDITIONAL FOOTAGE SOURCES=
🟥 Green Aspect Videos: • 60103 'Flying Scotsman...
🔴 Green Aspect Videos: • Flying Scotsman gallop...
🟥 MoiUnMouton: • Steam Train: 60103 "Fl...
🔴 Wonkabar007: • Video
🟥 Davy Gray: • A3 Pacific No.60103 Fl...
🔴 Cornishpastyman: • THE FLYING SCOTSMAN ST...
🟥 Colin Prosser: • 60103 Flying Scotsman ...
🔴 Colin Prosser: • 60103 Flying Scotsman ...
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🤔Where do you stand on Flying Scotsman? Comment below👇
I don't hate her but she's not my favourite either, there are locomotives I prefer over her. She does have a hell of a story though, especially in preservation, and it's a real shame that she doesn't have at least one sister engine in preservation with her (e.g. Papyrus). Having said that, she's definitely on my bucket list of locos to ride behind!
The fact that Mallard is a static exhibit is border-line criminal. Now THAT is a record breaker.
I believe that it cheated, it went downhill with 7 passenger cars
I agree. That's why I believe the LMS duchess to be superior. As it broke the record with a full express and it didn't go downhill
After that it needed to be repaired because it got damaged (IIRC something rlly bad could have happened to it (explosion??))
Which engine are you referring to?
@@tfsmf It's obvious. Mallard
I'm an American so the Flying Scotsman besides Thomas the Tank Engine was my introduction to British railroading. I remember my parents buying me a VHS tape a long time ago about the Flying Scotsman visiting Australia so that was how I was introduced to it to begin with. It may make me shallow but Flying Scotsman and the LNER are my favorite British railroading icons despite further delving in to British railroading history it still remains at the top for me.
Lovely post, think I got into Scotsman in a similar way - a diet of Thomas and a load of VHS tapes my parents bought me of its exploits around the world!
Ok, don't blame Beeching for the dismantling of rail infrastructure. His plan was to eventually reopen any closed lines when it became cost-effective to do so. It was Alfred Ernest Marples that ordered the closed lines be torn up in order to generate more business for his road construction business. Beeching was a scapegoat.
A Beeching video might just be next on my hit list…
@@butikimbo9595
Unfortunately what Beeching did was kind of necessary at the time. A nationalized rail network doesn't necessarily have to be profitable but in BR's case things got so bad due to poor planning and overambitious construction that cuts like that were the only option. But again, I can't stress this enough, Beeching wanted the closed lines to be reopened (yards would have been another story, since a lot of those were massively overbuilt in expectation of traffic that didn't come) eventually once it was viable to do so.
@VestedUTuber but did they have to get rid of all steam in more or less 10 years? The BR standards were still in construction and fit to work until at least the 80's. As proven in preservation the 9F's could pull twice the amount br gave them credit for. I just think if they had spaced the end of steam more they had less money to spend on replacements in that short time no?
@@nielsleenknegt5839
Steam was done away with because of maintenance, start up times and fuel inefficiencies, all which lead to increased costs of operation. With a steam locomotive, you'd have to clean out the firetubes, lubricate the connecting rods and bearings, check to make sure there's no cracks in anything important, get a fire going and then spend a bunch of time waiting for the water in the boiler to heat up and start boiling. And there's a lot of failure points on a steam locomotive.
It's also a lot harder to standardize parts across a fleet of steam locomotives. With diesels, any prime mover unit of a certain size spec will fit any locomotive designed to use that size of prime mover. But you're not going to get away with fitting an A1/A3's cylinders to a 7MT without a significant rebuild. Either way it's a lot cheaper to produce large numbers of a single standardized part than it is to produce a wide range of different parts.
I'm sure it's possible to build a steam locomotive design that could be made as easy and cheap to maintain as a diesel using modern materials, design concepts and manufacturing methods, but it wouldn't really resemble a traditional steam locomotive.
@@trainsonthebrainthe cost is Bec it is SO old!
Flying Scotsman is like ocean liners, they go through different liveries and bodies
I'm Aussie and she is very much loved by the entire rail community here and we are also pretty stoked that she set one of her records while she was here! One of the Australian model railway companies have even made a run of HO scale brass models of her that are accurate down to the last detail and these days fetch a rather large price if you can find one, last I have seen went for $3000 Aud
That’s lovely to hear! I guess the Aussie tour was infinitely more successful than the USA tour - no disrespect to Alan Peglar, who I’m sure we’re all very grateful to - as it was more thought out, better planned and had more structure. And the non-stop record was brilliant to see happen, especially when you consider how old the locomotive was even then.
@@trainsonthebrain I honestly don't know too much about the US tour aside from the financial trouble at the end and her almost been left in the US but I do know that while she was here it was done with the help of the federal and state governments along with the rail preservation groups around Australia. There was to be no repeat of the debacle at the end of the US tour
As a railway, train and steam enthusiast, I could never hate This one of Gresley's.
She looked OK when first preserved and without the second tender. In her final manifestation with double chimney and 'German' smoke deflectors but with LNER livery, she looked like something out of a fairground. Now, in BR livery she looks really good. I was pulled often in the 1960s by her and my parents saw her at Wembley in 1924 for the British Empire Exhibition. I still reckon City of Truro did the 100 back in 1904.
I love apple green but I think it did look a bit odd carrying that livery with the double chimney and smoke deflectors. That’s brilliant about your parents seeing the loco at Wembley and how you got to travel behind it in its heyday. Although only for a short distance I enjoyed the rides behind her during her visit to Dereham in 2021!
Ass take
Flying Scotsman’s a very special locomotive. I remember seeing her at the Severn Valley Railway when she visited alongside Tornado. I stared at her in Bridgnorth depot for a good 15-20 minutes, taking it all in. I thought about the history she carries, the places she’d been to.
But most importantly, I thought about the people who put their blood, sweat and tears into building, operating and maintaining her, many of whom are no longer here with us today. Thinking about that while looking at this magnificent locomotive, it made me well up but at the same time gave me a great feeling of pride in our country’s railway history and that right there to me…
That is the Spirit of The Flying Scotsman.
She still runs as a reminder of those who came before us and may she continue to run after we’re long gone.
An amazing comment that sums up my thoughts perfectly. It’s more than just a locomotive. It’s the incredible effort that’s gone into it and the joy it brings to everyone.
Undoubtedly some of its fame is due to its iconic name, the sort of thing the media love to fasten on. Let us not forget that in the locomotive exchange the GWR Pendennis Castle humiliated the A1s to the extent that they were all rebuilt as A3s copying GWR boiler pressure and valve travels. And yet outside of railway enthusiasts who has heard of Pendennis Castle?
In the Exchange Trials the locomotive which achieved the highest horsepower was the A1. The GW publicity machine did not mention this. Years later in the Interchange Trials the King Class 6018 managed to climb from Grantham to Stoke box in 10 minutes and 8 seconds with a load of 530 tons, Pendennis Castle managed the climb in 9 mins 35 secs in 1925 hauling 475 tons. 4472 while working as an A1 (BP 180 psi) hauled 520 tons in 9 mins 30 secs and a K3 Mogul hauled 530 tons in 10 mins 5 secs. Publicity material is not good guidance. Things are far more complicated.
@@DeCasoU1 firstly it is an established fact that the castle was able to easily maintain A1 schedules while using between 10 and 15% less coal and water. Also if the castle superiority was only down to the GWR publicity machine why did Gresley rebuild all the A1s as A3s?
Man, I could not agree more with your statement. I really love Flying Scotsman because he is a very important engine who not draws multiple people in Britain but the entire world.
Thanks Bryan! What a locomotive.
I’m an American and I’m a huge fan of steam engines and diesel engines from every country and I remember my grandfather telling me a story of how he gets to see the Flying Scotsman visiting America and even get to see his cousin Sir Nigel Gresley there who is one the 6 surviving LNER Class A4s
Flaying Scotsman is a living breathing beast and deserves to be alive as she helps represent LNER steam locomotives in the preservation era as a lot of the steam locomotives in preservation are LMS, GWR, BR and southern steam locomotives
Admittedly, the old girl is extremely famous, which is why its worth the upkeep. Now that the National Railway Museum has restored it to near 'factory' condition, its upkeep should prove to be a lot cheaper for a good few decades. Part of the problem with the frames was age and the consequential metal fatigue, but in the last few years before it became part of the National collection it was 'suped up' with a far higher tractive effort than designed so it could haul bigger trains, and I am afraid the price was paid. Thought I should mention that as it was not mentioned in the video.
Great points Matt, totally agree.
The old 'girl' is an old BOY!!!!
@@Eleina1951
Well spotted! I felt that calling him "old girl" and then referring him to him as "it" showed a lack of respect....
For the Originality one, all the parts may be newer than the old parts that Scotsman owned but The Soul of Scotsman is still existing with the engine
That’s a lovely way of putting it.
True! A locomotive is not some building capable of standing unscathed for centuries. It is a machine. Parts wear out. Parts break down and inevitably need replacing. Even if the day comes when there isn't one single part of the original Scotsman on him he will still be Flying Scotsman. He will always represent what the legend is about!!!!
Frankly, I'm bored of all the attention Scotsman gets, but I realize how fascinating her history is. I dare say that I'll try to see her if I ever go to England, although I much prefer her LNER 4472 condition instead of BR 60103.
It's a shame that she's the only survivor of her class, and I will say that the A1 / A3 is a nice looking locomotive, and I have two of them in my model collection (A3 No. 2599 'Book Law' and A1 No. 4476 'Royal Lancer').
It's famous because we are continually told it it is famous.
Rocket & Mallard are both more famous for their achievements. Mallard is well displayed in the NRM's great hall. What's left of the original Rocket is tucked away in a dark alcove at the side of the NRM's second hall.
I saw her as a little boy standing on Kings Cross station platform my Dad pointed out the name and I looked into the cab to see the fire. She was fantastic in her pomp and was still fantastic when I saw her slip through Spalding last year with hardly a whisper she’s a marvellous machine. It’s the haters that are the boring ones.
We are from New Zealand, and in May we are visiting the UK. We are leaving our Hotel in London at 7am, to make our way across London in peak commuter traffic (I assume) to catch an LNER train to Leeds, to catch a local train, to catch a bus, so that we can ride on the Flying Scotsman at Worth Valley Railway. Its status is such that we can not pass up the opportunity to see it person.
That’s amazing! Hope you have a wonderful trip in May. Are you doing any other rail trips? You should also tweet the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway and let them know you are coming, they might let you hop into the cab for a quick look etc! Great post!
The reason the scotsman's overhall is so expensive is bcs most companies that used to specialise into steam locomotive have ether went bust or lost their expertise which increases costs as their is less competition. Also parts are no longer mass produced which also increases costs
People love to hate on what stands out and what shines above the rest.
As the only working A3 with her achievements in both working life and preservation that’s special enough, add on the locos global fame and ability to quite literally draw crowds like no other and there’s your reason why she’s hated, adored but never ignored.
Agreed!
every part for the Scotsmans has to essentially be built to order, which is why it costs so much to maintain. I love it personally.
Me too!
I wouldn't be surprised if there's at least a bit of a "Scotsman tax" (in that contractors and machine shops are upcharging for the fame) as well. Every part for Tornado had to be made to order as well, but as an entirely new build it still cost less than Flying Scotsman's rebuild.
The Scotsman's overhaul was actually more in line with a remanufacturing, as the Scotsman had been very poorly treated during its private ownership following its BR days. Among the issues were cracks in its frames, which had developed as a result of the locomotives' boiler having been replaced with that of an A4 which had a higher pressure, which led to an owner to have the cylinders bored out. this put a high amount of stress on the frames and running gear. Thus, the overhaul was a nightmare from an engineering standpoint.
It had been well treated during a number of its years in private ownership but sadly not for all of them. Metal fatigue is a fact of life and so are cracks occurring in locomotive frames. The boiler fitted to the A4 class was fitted to the A3s in BR days but at the reduced working pressure of 220 psi to match the A3 boiler. The exercise undertaken to obtain more power from the engine was successful so far as the power went. Improved steam pipes, cylinders returned to the original A1 diameter of 20", higher working pressure, the double Kylchap exhaust drove the power output. What didn't happen was a program of frame improvements to make them capable of withstanding the new (3,000 hp plus) output. If this work had taken place it would not have been particularly visible though it would have altered the historic fabric. How much modification? The A4 could produce in excess of 3,000 ihp and these were based in the A3. I can understand the temptation to improve the A3 design. The Argentinian Engineer L D Porta took the basic design as the basis for his proposal for an improved design for UK service. Not the Peppercorn A1, not another type (put your own favourite in the list; Princess Coronation, King, BR Standard, Bulleid Pacific - none of these) he took the design which dated back to pre-grouping years. It had and has that much potential.
I've never quite understood the argument for how much of the locomotive is original. She would have had numerous parts replaced and swapped out over it's long career with the LNER and British Railways. This is more or less the case for most machines in a fleet. I'm pretty sure parts of the recently outshopped Large Prairie 4110 at Cranmore is actually off 7822 Foxcote Manor!
Dont tell people that pretty much every locomotive got replaced parts
I also got to meet Alan at one of our Railway Museum meetings
I'll never understand why people get uppity about originality, they haven't been original since their first rebuilds so it just doesn't make any sense. Especially if it improves the running quality.
Indeed. I totally get wanting to preserve original pieces. But it represents much more than that. Every train in it’s lifetime goes through changes!
I wouldn't say I hate it, but being a railway modeller I certainly just skip past this and Mallard in the Hornby and Bachmann catalogues. It'll always be an icon, but I'm just tired of it always being there and much prefer to see different names on A1/3 and A4 models, they interest me more than something I can get 50 (Just a guess, I bet there's more) versions of. :)
Counterpoint: Scotsman and Mallard being so famous and thus so consistently available makes it easy to reletter your own A1/3s and A4s, or use them as kitbash fodder for other Pacifics or Ten-Wheelers. Manufacturers don't even produce UP Big Boys on such a consistent basis, and those are the closest equivalent the US has to the Gresley A1/3 in terms of cultural significance.
Although that comes with its own issues. Case in point: Bachmann N-Scale TTTE Percy. Bachmann couldn't meet the demand for that model simply because it was THE model to buy for HOn30/OO9 0-4-0 kitbashes before the TTTE Narrow Gauge models came out. I wouldn't be surprised if there's even a few 0-4-0+0-4-0 Garratts built out of N-scale Percys. But the result is that Bachmann's always out of stock and they go for way more than they really should on the resale market.
The case with every steam locomotive in preservation is the same as the Scotsman. Trigger's Broom. Barry Scrapyard sold the parts, before the locomotives had time to be scrapped. That is where most of the parts of preserved steam locomotives in the UK have come from.
Times have moved on now, so the parts that have to be replaced, have to be manufactured specifically for them. There are Engineering companies that manufacture these parts specifically for the preserved railways, but the parts are now one off creations, which is why they are so expensive.
Indeed half of the frames and the cylinder block on FS have also been replaced in preservation!
Thing is it’s not like the government is spending money on it to rebuild, it’s the national railway museum
In my humble opinion the Gresley A1/A3 is the most elegant of British steam locomotives and the Flying Scotsman is the sole survivor of the class… that should be reason enough to keep her going.
Indeed!
It’s very sad that even she was meant to be scrapped as well had it not been for Pegler. Imagine that. No a1/3. Would have been nice for more like the a4s to survive, like papyrus, the worlds fastest non-streamlined steam locomotive, who like Scotsman was doing the a4 tests and hit 108 mph a few months after Scotsman’s 100. Also the names. Imagine having “sandwich” flying down the mainline,or “flying fox”.
Great video, have always been a fan of the Flying Scotsman and was lucky to see it at NRM York during its last major overhaul, as well as seeing it in action over the Forth Rail Bridge in May 2018. Can also respect you for making valid criticisms of the machine - a welcome relief from the immature comments I've seen online that say the Scotsman should be scrapped and turned in to baked bean cans. Once again, a great video and consider me now subscribed.
Thanks very much! The idea was to try and give an unbiased view of how the locomotive divides opinion so hopefully it’s done that…interesting responses to the locomotive from all over the world looking at the comments section! It’s more than just a machine though - it deserves its place in history even if it’s not always been smooth sailing as it were. Really appreciate the kind words!
I hadon't the privelage of seeing her on board ship at Port Chalmers, Dunedin, New Zealand, (where I'm from) in November 1989, on her way back from Australia. Then seen her on a charter at York, 2001, and Southampton in 2019. Be awesome if she could come back down under one day. Dreams are free, shipping isn't...
I remember seeing the fastest A3 at Saint Margarets Loco shed in Edinburgh just before she was taken away to be scrapped her name was Papyrus (60096) and she did 108 mph between York and London which was a world record at that time. Pity the didn't keep her !!
Completely agree, seems a real shame that more A3s weren’t preserved especially that one!
My thoughts on the cost is that there are ways to reduce them, but you'd have to be willing to make modifications to utilize modern materials and parts fabrication methods. For example, right now the tie rods are forged from I would assume some sort of structural steel. Hand-forging custom parts is an extremely expensive process and the parts have to be replaced somewhat frequently. It would be cheaper to use waterjetted Hardox (literally tank armor, which is surprisingly cheap). Another example would be replacing the journal bearings with sealed, prelubricated roller bearings, and yet another would be to apply a molybdenum disulfide coating to the cylinders to reduce the need for active lubrication, as well as making them out of hardox to massively reduce abrasive wear.
Thing is, I've heard people claiming that UP 4014 was ruined simply because they put a computer in the cab to bring it up to spec to run on US main lines, so I don't think modernizing the most iconic steam locomotive in the world would go over very well, even if it would ultimately allow the locomotive to continue to operate for decades or even centuries to come.
Scotsman has had radio equipment added and an entire air break system sitted which it never had before. Doesn't really change it much.
@@HamStrains
I know, but people still complain about it.
@@VestedUTuber they sadly do a good job hiding the pumps on most of the westinghouse conversions, when really they add to the appearance of a loco, imagine scotsman with a lovely westinghouse pump bolted on the side of the smoke box.
Which is quite ironic since the FS is like the railway's version of the 747.
A arge versatile iconic machine which have both became a symbol of thier industries, commonly feutured in media, Adored by almost every enthusiast and both due to thier massive popularity ended up outliving thier intended lifespan.
The way I see it is even if every part of an engine is replaced, it's still the same engine because the "spirit" of it still remains
Indeed!
He’s the only A3 left he was nearly scrapped by BR despite being the poster boy for the LNER and he’s been around the world and he’s now 100 years old that why’s he’s great
Truly Britain's finest engineering.
A true legend he is.
Amen!
This is perhaps something that needs a little cutting down to size is the worship of gresley. He worked in collaboration with so many others, without whom none of his pacifics would be what they are or evolved into via experimentation and reiteration to end up with the arguably better more rounded A1. The story is really much deeper than the hero worship of one man or the cult of one loco due to attrition within its class mates to the eventual point of being sole survivor.
Tbh the national railway museum and most media around these locos and their stories are so utterly focused on selling Gresley as a brand as to be near useless as teaching tools to provide historical information on the locos or the man or the larger picture of how these things came about.
Little sad to think of the thousands upon thousands of uncelebrated unattributed hours of human graft and thought that went into it all subsumed and replaced with a golden statue of one man, names forgotten, efforts maligned, occasionally even outright lies made up post mortem to slash the reputation of one man in favour of another.
All rather vicious and needless, makes you wonder as an enthusiast looking from a standpoint outside such circles why on earth they would feel the need to be so corrupt in their history
@@HamStrains I mean, I'd rather take what we have now, than Scotsman being a static museum piece. I imagine not a lot of people know him if he wasn't there pulling enthusiast trains. And if no one knows about it's history then I imagine not many kids would be attracted to railways.
Take one example, the Staatsspoorwegen 800 series (DKA F10), It was just a one piece standing proudly in a museum, yet no one cares or known it's history and how it's a very popular loco in its early days.
Another example is Mallard. The only thing that makes it popular is not because of it's speed record, but because of it's appearance on popular culture, like Thomas (as Spencer's basis), because the general public doesn't care about history.
I know a lot of steam locomotive classes mainly because I love Thomas, and I want to see a real working steam locomotives running at high speeds, and that's exactly what I would watch on youtube back then. I watched videos of steam locomotives running on heritage lines. I don't search up "Steam locomotive on a museum", but rather "Steam locomotive still operational", because a staticly displayed loco wasn't appealing to me at all back then.
The point here is, I still don't see why enthusiast sees Scotsman as a money machine. Sure, it would give the NRM profits, but imagine how many child has been attracted to it thundering at the mainline at high speeds. Just like me, I don't want to see a static locomotive when I was a kid, but growing up seeing them running on the mainline makes me want to know more about them. And I think a lot of child had the same experience as I was.
@@HamStrainsI know that the "nOt OrIgInAl ScOtSmAn" thingy was bothering railfans, but at least it can kept itself appealing to everyone, and people (mainly kids) would love to learn more about it's history. Stating that running it was a disrespect is so wrong. Many railfans who isn't a hot-head even wanted Mallard to be restored to steam again. It doesn't matter if the object is not 100% from 1923 (because Gresley had rebuilt him anyway), but what matters is it's soul and how it gives smiles to people for 100 or more years to come.
@@HamStrains our hobby of railfanning here is slowly dying, and we need to keep it alive at all costs. And how do we do that? By simply being appealing to children. Which is why I stated 'children' so many times here. Because they're the future. All of those historic locos are going to be in their hands. If no kids cares about railways, then the future of those historic locos are gonna be dark.
The argument about how much of the loco is still the original is about as convincing as saying that Canterbury Cathedral is no longer itself because of all the renovation and restoration it has undergone since the original church was first built in 597 AD or that I am no longer me becuase my cells are constantly regenerating!
"You don't need to be a football fan to know who pele was"
Me: who's that? 😂
😂
hi there. i worked on 4472 in 1983 when it was at southall. the only part which is original is the chassis,, i think Big Bertha the banker should have got more reconised as it was a one off.
Bet it was fun to work on! Great to hear from someone who used to work on it. Would love to have seen Big Bertha preserved, another missed opportunity there.
I got to see her come through Niles canyon on the Western Pacific in 1973, sadly being towed by a diesel but she was still beautiful
to be honest, i respect the scotsman a lot more than i like it. its achievements and iconography are undeniable but as an enthusiast it is a bit frustrating seeing how some people act about it, especially when it endangers lives. regardless of its importance i think theres a point at which a line has to be drawin with people’s behaviour. we’ll see if that happens, but its definitely soured my feelings regarding the locomotive a fair bit. im also a bit tired of it, i can only hear so much praise about something before it gets old, which hurts the scotsman even more when there are many other locomotives with fascinating histories and passion behind them.
I know it’s expensive to operate but how many other things like the queen Mary Concorde or similar things flying Scotsman was technically the first British steam locomotive I saw when I was 3 years old
I love it. I'm an LNER fan, of couse I will. However, I will admit I'm not a huge fan on non railfans generalising Scotsman as the face of every british loco.
This is a good point - it’s sort of become a mascot of the railways for the non-enthusiast, which isn’t necessarily a good thing all of the time as there are so many unique steam engines running on our system that don’t get the same love. Then again, without Scotsman, they may get even less love. And I bet you Scotsman has been a ‘gateway drug’ for enthusiasts as well - a catalyst that inspired them to look at the railways as a whole.
Ok as a rail enthusiast of over 50 years here is my take , yes she is a cash cow ,but the way she is running now she looks incredible ,this is how she last ran in BR service and how many will remember Scotty ,there can't be many if any who saw her in her original guise .My gripe is with the NRM ,who are turning the museum in to a adventure playground ,how about putting Mallard in BR green ,not seen since 1962 ,i could go on but Scotty ,as she is right now looks stunning.
I personally think that originality of the parts isn’t that important. It should be the spirit of the engine that counts. No one else makes a fuss when an engine like 6233 Duchess Of Sutherland is overhauled so Flying Scotsman shouldn’t be different
Great video. 👍
It was the first steam engine I drove in a simulator back when Microsoft Train Simulator was released.
To say it doesn't have its original parts is a poor argument, lets face it what vintage steam train working rail tours today still have the same parts it did when it was first made, more recently Sir Nigel Gresley, which was almost completely rebuilt , and Bahamas which spent along time being rebuilt to steam
Maybe UK is missing a railway repair shop like Meiningen, Germany?
Flying Scotsman is legendary for sure, but my favorite steam locomotive is the legendary Southern Pacific Daylight GS-4 # 4449!
An interesting take on the Flying Scotsman. I can see both sides of the arguement but personally, I enjoy the Flying Scotsman for what it represents, even if most of the original engine is probably gone by now and the whistle is rubbish.
It makes enough people happy and is instantly recognisable. I've had people ask me what steam engine is coming and when I say Scots Guardsman, I sometimes get, I don't know that one but if I say Flying Scotsman, that person always stays and gets excited.
It will always divide opinion amongst enthusiasts but many celebrities do
Thanks for watching! I’m very much of your school of thought - I know it divides opinion (comments section of this video proves my point) but it represents so much more than that.
The fact that 4472 is a celebrity means that the ticket sales will inevitably pay for the cost of repairs and restoration.
Love the Scotty, and there were 70 odd of them back in the day, though I've got a soft spot for the City of Truro, the original ton-up loco, I don't know if there were any earlier ones, but it would be good to know if there were any.
Happy 100th birthday flying scotsman
I can see why the haters hate the celebrity status
Ive been in the cab of the flying scotsman! its beautiful!
Same, and agree!
Back in 2013-14 ish when I lived in north Yorkshire, I lived close to York and as a huge train obsessed 5 year old seeing the flying Scotsman getting restored was amazing and then getting to see it in action when it was working again. I love it but the class 158 is my personal favourite train.
That must have been great! I only saw it for the first time during this ‘return’ phase and it’s been fantastic to travel behind it since. I like Class 158’s too, great trains 👍
Scotty has earned his place as a beloved steam locomotive. He is an icon in my eyes.
The high value restauration work on this steam engine whose very litle remains from its original structure, is the real reason why so much marketing and popularity has been rising from media to help pay back the money invested in order to make it possible to run on British Metals again. Simple as that. Other restauration projects should deserve same amount of media and public support for their projects turn reality too, not just on railways as there are many vital priorities in need specially post pandemic.
Funny the NRM policy is to put locomotives static keep them in original condition put flying scotsman on the side and you do what you want cut the front part of the frames off keep it running
I know it didn’t go well last time but now that the internet exists, trust me if it did another US tour it would be a massive success.
And I would love to see it stop at the Illinois Railway Museum or alongside restored and operational Big Boy #4014 (the largest locomotive in the world)
I do wonder if they’d consider a return. There’s always a potential risk of vandalism etc but it would perhaps be better secured this time. I definitely think it would be interesting to take it back across the pond even just for a one-off special event at something like the Illinois museum. Imagine it stood next to Big Boy!
Personally, my favorite of the A3s was Humorist because of all the experimentation, I especially like the full smoke deflectors put on in the later years. But I think it should have been Great Northern that was preserved, what Thompson did to it was low. Or if not GN, at least Papyrus, whose claim to 100 mph among the A1s was stronger than FS (which probably went 98 that day).
The English put this engine over like crazy? The steamers that regularly travel for tourists, displays in Europe are also very loved by train fans, I would say more!
If it wasn’t for Scotsman then Mallard, Duchess of Hamilton, D9002, D1023 and most of the other locos in the NRM would be working
Well being a die-hard Gresley fan I do like flying Scotsman but is my favourite? NO.
What made Scotsman so famous?
Well it was the third of the new Gresley A1 Pacific's but there was already a train service called THE FLYING SCOTSMAN.
What really brought Flying Scotsman to fame was the LNERS publicity department.
On first May 1928 Flying Scotsman pulled the The Flying Scotsman train on the inaugural non stop run of 392 miles non stop from London to Edinbugh , which was the longest non stop journey in the world.
In 1934 Flying Scotsman the loco was official the first steam loco to reach 100 MPH.
What is original on Scotsman? Well obviously a lot of new parts and remember even boilers were swapped between locos in the class and many relieved high pressure A4 boilers.
I think it would be better to retire it to the NRM and build a new one with modern materials.
Love it. Haven't read all the comments but seems I'm not the only one. Another thing, did not spot one reference to it as a train. Hopefully, we are gradually getting there.
Thanks Bob! The split in the comments has definitely surprised me (and almost vindicated the reason to make the video) but I can confirm you’re not the only one! I’m always very careful not to refer to locomotives as trains, which is tricky when there is, of course, the Flying Scotsman train service of which it was named after! Hope you’re well, thanks watching 👍
Pretty sad that almost none of the original flying Scotsman are left. :(
Yes it's expensive to keep but by God it's beautiful.❤❤💕💕😍😍
It is indeed 💕
I don't hate The Flying Scotsman, I'm just thoroughly fed up with the word "iconic" 😖😣
Hastily double-checking my script now to see how many times I used that word. I hope not too many!
The most Famous Locomotive in the world is certainly worth the money just for that.
Nil u were right when u called them heartless bastards I agree with you I have the original 00 gauge Scotsman Hornsby model I love it
Compared to the £12 million pounds paid for Churchill's scribblings some years ago, or the £20 million pounds paid for the refurbishing of the Royal Opera House and the fortunes paid out by the Royals and the Government's redecorations, I'd say it was an absolute bargain that pleases millions!! 🤔
Honestly, I Also Love The Flying Scotsman, It’s One Of My Favorite UK Steam Locomotives In The World, Along With The A4 Mallard, The 4900 Hall Class 5972 Olton Hall "The Hogwarts Express" The A1 Peppercorn Pacific Tornado 60163, The LMS Black 5’s, The BR 9F’s, The GWR Castle Class Clun Castle, The Merchant Navy Class Clan Line And GWR City Of Truro
The “ugh” and the “boo” and the “heartless bastard” parts made me laugh out loud 😅
Ha! I’d forgotten about the last one until I re-watched it yesterday 😅 Glad it raised a chuckle!
The only reason it cost so much to maintain is because of how hard they run her. If she was just doing slow-speed excursions her maintenance would be the same as every other steam locomotive. She is one of very few steam locomotives that still runs at speed on mainlines.
That’s a great point Troy. I’m amazed even now at how often she runs under her own steam even just for depot moves or for public appearances. I also think the rise in heritage charter services has contributed to her running even more trains than anyone expected previously. Think of how hard they ran her during her world tours as well. No wonder she’d been knocked to bits by the time Riley and Sons looked after her.
ok take a look at 5043 then she run very hard when on the mainline put in some outstanding performances one being the non stop runs london to bristol and back didnt take 4m to rebuild and now she is back after her over haul that didnt cost 4m
They don't run the engine very hard. The loads hauled now are significantly less than the class is capable of hauling. It cruises along at a speed well below what it is capable of and has a limit on the number of excursions it should undertake in a year.
@@DeCasoU1 You could argue that, for its age, it works quite a significant number of dates and tours. Also not totally sure about lighter loads - Scotsman can haul long trains - the more coaches, the more financially viable a trip?
@@trainsonthebrain There is a limit set on the engine by the Museum. However, given that these engines were originally designed to be able to handle 600 ton trains and the locomotive is far more capable now than it was when first designed, it would perhaps be possible to see it tested some more on the odd occasion just to remind people of what these engines can really do. It is a good condition and is well looked after. Not asking for a 700 ton plus load which they can work but given that these a great heavy load engines it is rather undermining to see it always being far less than extended even though this is at one level understandable.
my great grandad was the second fireman of the flying Scotsman and I have an original photo of the flying Scotsman in L.N.E.R apple green
Since you did the top 10 BR Standard class steam locomotives, can you maybe do a top 10 for Great Western, Southern, London Midland and Scottish, and London and North Eastern Railway steam locomotives?
It's beautiful, Iconic, historic...it connects us to our past, a beautiful tribute to engineering. We should preserve our glorious past
And it has an interesting story, it's adventures in America...you cant make that stuff up! This thing has a living breathing soul
Amen!
I love too see the big boy and the flying Scotsman next to each other.
American locomotive could've done what the scott men did and go do tours in Eoupe, but due to loading gauge reasons since most Of our steam locomotives are 16ft tall and very heavyweight, The British rail gauge cant hold that huge amount of weight and would Sink into the ground. Same with most of our rolling stock.
I’ve never understood the “originality” argument. These machines were constantly having parts replaced and upgraded while in their working lives, why should it be any less flying Scotsman now then in the 60s? It still has the soul of the machine and that’s enough for me
I agree, I think to expect any machine to be 100 original is a big ask. The soul is most important!
Whenever I see anyone bleating "It'S nOt OriGiNaL!!?!1!", I point out that its about as original as any other loco of that age thats done as much work and even the bastion of originality that is Mallard is on its 3rd set of frames. Also, show me a loco that is totally original and ill show you one that has never done any work.
I was waiting for a Trigger's broom reference. 😆
Had to be done 😁
4.5 million pounds ?! Someone is ripping them off big time !
The fact was that the NRM bought it in a far worse condition than they realised due to inadequate research. Then when then had it they didn’t have all the expertise or proper project management in place to restore it cost effectively. Add to that the need to strip it back down again having started the rebuild to repair the front of the frame which was discovered to be beyond repair way beyond when they should have noticed and you start to see where all the money went. Bob Meanley wrote an interesting report on the debacle which is available online and critical of the whole process. www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/flying_scotsman_report_october_2012.pdf
Trigger's broom, and Theseus' ship! What they did with Vulcan XH558, was to auction off the 'time expired' parts to raise ca$h.
To compare it to PA474 the BBMF Lancaster based at Conningsby, That plane was made too late to take part in the war, so every 3 years it is repainted in a new scheme to commemorate and celebrate particular aircraft, but it always retains the TRUE number PA474. Unlike the Candian FM213 (VERA), which bears the number 'KB726'.
Scotsman has had 3 numbers, many colour schemes, and liveries, and configurations; so maybe they can take it through its various guises to please everyone? But you know what you'll never please everyone!
I just think that there are more interesting, and better looking engines out there. Too much fame and it becomes something people always get confused over, calling other locos Flying Scotsman.
Its like when people say they only know the Beatles' song "Hey Jude", its generic and there are better songs that they made.
I also feel the Scotsman is the icon or mascot of heritage railroads in the UK.
While I may not be the biggest fan of Scotsman, I can appreciate what it is and what has done for the heritage scene. While I may have gotten my interest of trains from living near a heritage line in the US, multiple people have fallen in love with trains because of Scotsman. It can bring attention to other railroads because of its status and if someone is interested enough, they do research and can become a railfan. It's dark but I must admit, trains are a dying interest. Scotsman is so famous it can be recognized by most in the UK and around the world. People are going to be idiots but idiots are among the group of people attracted to celebrities. While the engine is almost not original the same could be said about the engines that started the preservation movement, Talyllyn and Dolgoch are practically new engines. While this is unfortunate, its history is passed down. I think of replacing parts less as a devastation and more as preservation. Trains were meant to run and keep on running, parts are going to wear out and be replaced. Ultimately, in my opinion, as long as parts from the engine at the start of the rebuild are kept on the engine, its history is passed down to the new parts. While they aren't the original parts, most engines are not going to have all original parts due to parts getting replaced during service. Scotsman is doing more good running than it is static, it's out where it can be seen, full of life, and not in a museum where it would sit lifeless. Most people would rather see a steam engine running that one just sitting. Scotsman is an icon of trains and will be forever more. Let's hope Scotsman can keep on bringing people to trains. Also, BR blue is a very pretty livery.
I wrote an essay, damn...
This is a great post, thanks for commenting! I think you make a lot of great points - some people aren’t it’s biggest fan but it does form something of a gateway drug for people to become rail enthusiasts and learn to love other parts of the railway from there - in the same way that Thomas was for me and many others. I think the fact it has any original parts left at all is quite impressive when you consider the miles its travelled. I’m surprised it hasn’t been knocked to bits! And it definitely deserves to keep running - to see it still pulling expresses 100 years on - that’s bloody incredible when you really stop and think about it.
@@HighOutlook Well I fallen in love with trains because of the American ones for the most part.
i had no idea Mallard no longer runs and hasn't done so since 1988
Yep, it’s been a static exhibit at the National Railway Museum in York before and after 88. A shame in a way, but on the other hand it’s made the museum a must-see tourist destination. Hopefully, one day, she might run again even if only for a short spell.
The fitting of the double chimney, as with the GWR Castles, may have improved the performance in the post war days of poor coal, but aesthetically they were ruined and looked misshapen. Also in the case of Scotsman it also became necessary to add the hideous smoke deflectors to prevent the exhaust steam drifting into the driver's view - a phenomenon that didn't bother the Castles, thankfully, as their superior design didn't warrant it.
Long Live Flying Scotsman!
Imagine if another A1/3 had survived… suddenly it wouldn’t be so special.
Oh yes it would, the Mallard is still popular when there were multiple A4's still in steam like Dominion of Canada , Bittern, Dwight D Eisenhower, Union of South Africa , Mallard was still popular because it was , like flying Scotmsan , another record breaker
Further proof of heydons point lies in Tornado. We do have another A1, the difference being that it's a new build. And yet Flying Scotsman still holds all the glory. Except for the time Tornado rescued a stranded passenger train that couldn't operate in the unusually cold conditions.
I mean it would because of what the loco achieved in its working life 🤷♂️ That alone made it standout from the rest of class, it’s preserved life just kept adding to that.
You can’t stop the use of a legend because it’s a legend. It is the one thing that pains me with Mallard, that it never runs. I get that the NRM can’t have every single locomotive operational all the time, but surely Mallard, the holder of the fastest steam locomotive ever, should be operational. (I know Bittern is, or rather is awaiting overhaul to be, but Mallard is a bigger name). Same goes for City of Truro.
I do understand that there are many locomotives that are in the collection that may never run again because of their condition. But when you have locomotives that have been preserved from the day they were retired, how can you justify not keeping them operational?
Am I the only one who wants to see a race between City of Truro and Flying Scottsman? I'd kill to see that
i have never got to see it in person
Hope you get to soon! It’s going to be at York in the museum during half term if I’m not mistaken and you wanted to try and get to see it there!
I'm italian, I also like the Flying Scotsman, but not so much as I like the italian FS.740 or the narrow gauge FCL 353
I has a nostalgic liking for her, but I hate seeing it with the German smoke deflectors it looks wrong. Also it’s unsurprising that I want her to be reverted to Apple Green as LNER 4472 after her next overhaul.
I personally didn’t know that people hated her
It’s definitely surprised me in doing research for it. This comments section has also surprised me. Personally, and not to spoil my own video, I love it. I get some of the arguments people make, but it represents so much more than just being a train.
@@trainsonthebrain I agree that(although very costly) every generation deserves to get to see scottsman under steam
Part of the immense cost was also caused by the fact it was in horrible shape and that they kept messing up during the restoration. Being taken apart and put back together several times until they finally sent her off to Riley and Sons to have it done properly. So expensive but partly cause they didn’t do right the first time.
Imagine how quickly it could have been sorted if it went there in the first place.
@@trainsonthebrainexactly and how much less money!! It’s half a million to each time they take it apart and another to put it together and they did that so many times!!
Love it. Originality doesn't apply because parts of any man made thing wear out or corrode.
House, boat, car, truck, tractor, train, crane, statue and or monument all need maintenance and as such replacement parts.
I was 99% sure that "Was in the Railway Series (The book series that thomas and friends was based on) was going to be in the "hate it" side, as some steam enthusiasts hate Thomas (completely unjustified in my opinion)
Indeed! Thomas got me into trains in the first place. It’s the first I ever heard about some famous locomotives in the first place. I grew up near a steam railway and will never forget watching Thomas one morning, then being taken to the steam railway for the first time. It was like seeing it all come to life. Bloody marvellous.
I agree with you. The show and the RWS are the reason why I am so fascinated with Heritage lines and steam. I feel like I owe a lot to them.