The Superior Economics of TSMC’s Giga-Fabs
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- In 2018, TSMC broke ground on Fab 18 near Tainan City in the south of Taiwan. Fab 18 is a monster. It sits on 103 acres and has a total floor space of 950,000 square meters (10.2 million square feet).
That is about 3 times the size of AT&T Stadium in Dallas, Texas - home of the Dallas Cowboys.
In total, across all of its phases, Fab 18 will cost TSMC nearly $20 billion to build and operate. More than the cost of the USS Gerald R. Ford, the US Navy's most advanced aircraft carrier.
In this video, we are going to look at why TSMC's fabs are getting bigger and more expensive than ever before. And why that makes a lot of economic sense for the Taiwanese chip maker.
Links:
- The Asianometry Newsletter: asianometry.com
- Patreon: / asianometry
- The Podcast: anchor.fm/asianometry
- Twitter: / asianometry
Man every one of your videos is so well put together and presented. Many thanks for your time and effort in doing this. I am happily subscribed awhile ago. :)
As a Brazilian, thanks for providing a fab scale in soccer fields
"Americans will use any measurement system but metric" - I guess Americans aren't the only ones who don't want to use metric haha
This is one of my favourite documentary channels on UA-cam lately, thanks for all your hard work 👍 👏 🙏
I fully agree! 👍
another vote from me too! :)
@@Conservator. mdTmnki try n
U can try cold fusion TV he also does good job .. This guy needs to improve quality and animation of his video
I second that!
Hello, I feel really bad for critiquing something that has obviously taken a lot of time and care, but I think it could help if you showed number on screen when talking about giant numbers. It is sometimes hard to juggle all of that information.
Either way thank you for the video. It's amazing!
Right now he has subs with the video where the numbers get displayed. Though I must admit that just showing the numbers on-screen would also be nice.
I’ll keep that in mind for the future. Thanks
But also keep mentioning them in the script. I usually listen to these types of videos on the background.
And please also show their metric counterparts too: I don't know how much an acre is.
@@CristanMeijer💀💀💀
I'm a retired Photolithe Equipment Engineer. Started out with Canon USA on the PLA501 in the late 70's and retired when ST closed their American fabs (and moved processes to Singapore and Russia). I was the Photo Equipment Manager for ST in Texas. Before that I worked for SVGL on the MicraScan series of tools. I did a short gig for TriQuint on a process transfer from Oregon to Texas and retired when that product fell through. Thanks for a great insight into how the industry that I made a good living in has progressed. Money is a little tight now so I can't subscribe yet but will try to in the future.
Bro doesn't it suck there's no good anything let alone faba or even just ic and litho techs and designers in the Americas now?
He meant subscribe to his youtube channel in the end, not necessarily his patreon, this I believe, is still free ^^
Would you recommend applying for a job at Fab 21. They are hiring right now and love chips. Really want to get out of insurance lol
I personally appreciate the tilt towards audio. I am often watching/listening on the go - I can listen and travel, not so much for watching. It's critical to me that the main value is captured in the audio, with visuals being a value add. I feel this channel is already doing this great.
I recognize some people listen. But it’s nice to watch the visuals too
Just realized that I've been consuming this channel's content for quite some time now and didn't even know I wasn't subscribed. Fixed that and added a patreon sub to make it up to you, thanks.
This channel is required viewing for any long-term investor in any of the major chip manufacturers. Simple as.
Hey. Thanks so much for doing these videos.
Viewer from Zambia
Wish this video were twice as long - excellent analysis !
working in making of semiconductor product is the best thing i ever experience. i used to worked in solar panel manufacturing.
Excellent explanation of this critically important company and industry.
two months
@@ipozow It's called Patreon membership :P
@Asianometry this is my favorite so far, really demonstrates your love of craft. Thanks as always :)
Can you do an introduction about yourself? I’m wondering about your background, what made you do youtube, and how you normally gather information
While Jon ponders this request, there's pieces to that puzzle in his interview in a Compounding Curiosity podcast episode.
He said a long time ago that he got a degree from Berkeley, then went to work for some start-ups, before deciding to move to Taiwan. I think he said he got burned out from working in silicon valley.
😊@@carstenraddatz5279😊😊😊😅😊😊😊0p
I think an episode on Jon would be well deserved at this point ☺️
Like your descriptions and analysis. Your speculations are not too far from the mark. Keep on the good work!
Amazing episode, as always...Extremely informative
this is the BEST researched site on youtube
ASML is very different from TSMC, regarding sharing advancements in technology. ASML wants to get as many high skilled engineers as possible, and sharing how the EUV source and optics works is a great marketing strategy. However, try to find information about how the wafers and reticle move, metrology systems, temperature control, motion control... You'll find nothing, since this probably can get used by any other competitor.
But then what's stopping anyone else from competing with asml if they're so open house?
@@Napoleonic_S ASML does have competitors: Nikon, Canon, and probably others in US and China. AFAIK only the EUV market is cornered by ASML. Perhaps due to better talent management and a relatively small market. I mean, how many companies are shopping for an EUV machine?
@@guitarazn90210 Exactly. ASML has little info about how do their DUV machines work, apart from the info that you can get reading any book in the topic (there are really good ones btw). And ASML can show some breakthroughs in technology, which is mostly the source of EUV. But of course you won't get any information about how it really works: the sensors, mechanical actuators and software. Even their suppliers are supposed to be secret (except the big ones, you can't hide that 1/3rd of the machine is made by trumpf). I am confident that their openess for "sharing" technology is just to get a lot of people to work in ASML. It doesn't really harm the company, since if the competitors want to know these stuff, they can get it somewhere else.
Awesome video and explanation...TSMC is one hell of a gem having an immense pricing power with higher yields with virtually no real competition around....Its just one hell of pure play foundry.....
thank you for the video
I still watch your videos even after I left the industry.
Great video as always. Looking forward to the video on MEMS!
Love your insights and coverage
Love this channel can’t get info like this anywhere elts on UA-cam
Excellent explanation 👌
Very impressive Jon! Thanks!
Great series on fabs.
Consistently great content.
Extremely interesting as usual!
Another illuminating video!
WOW!
What an awesome insight view!!!
Just awesome!!!
Damn I love this channel!!! I'm excited about them building the plant in the U.S., and I knew it was a $12bn project so I was thinking that was pretty enormous...and while it is, to see how small that is in comparison with the Mega and Giga fabs is just mind-blowing!!! Love your work man, keep em coming!
.... and with the CO river running out of water .... A high water use mfg, like electronic fabs are, building in Arizona must have some bitchin give backs to the company to get them to build there.
@@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555 oh bigtime! I saw where AZ is spending a small fortune just getting infrastructure like water, power, etc out to the desert where it's being built lol. But it'll bring a lot of jobs and $$ to Arizona. So it's a win for them for sure
@@jpierce2l33t yeah ... but when water actually slows to a trickle what then??? They must know something .... either that or they're building a water reclamation so that they can use that water multiple times. Far as roads and stuff ... well that's the states job, imo infrastructure,
Yeah it'll be a boon for AZ good luck to them.
@@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555 yeah I'm not sure how they're handling the water situation specifically, but I'm curious to find out!
@@johnjacobjinglehimerschmid3555 I know Intel is utilizing a water reclamation system in the mid-90% efficiency range. But you're right the high intensity water demand is a negative externality on an already strained water supply of the CO river.
The ability to quickly shift to match production environment and then spread it to the fabs sounds so simple but thinking about more the level of complexity involved is astounding and that they're able to do it.
Just subbed. Great videos man
Jon, your videos are fabulous! 😁
TSMC the giga chad with the giga fab.
TSMC had always been secretive about their fabs. You can't bring your phone into the clean room because you might take pictures, no flash drives etc. That was already in 2012 when I was in Fab 15, and also in 2019 when I was in Fab 18
Most industries that have any IP/Process are like that. Bio-tech, regular manufacturing, etc.
After living here for 2 years and having visited over the past 20 years - I am baffled how Taiwan can build such precision components when so much around us has the "we'll leave it like that shall we?" brilliant though it is
First video I've seen from this channel. Very helpful and super interesting. Your visuals could use an upgrade to make it more interesting.
I've added a bunch of your videos to my list to watch.
The next sci-fi show/mobile idle game looks fine
Another awesome video.
One thing I’ve been wondering about is what happens to fabs when the leading edge customer move on to the next node? Presumably TSMC (and Samsung/Intel/Global Foundries) built huge capacity at 12/16/28nm. But those nodes are no longer good enough for products that need the leading edge. There’s always stuff that doesn’t need leading edge, but I always assumed that all those products were being made on old mature nodes where it would be cost prohibitive (with little economic benefit) to transition to newer process nodes. Also, what is the global demand situation for all those use cases beyond the leading edge? It seems like there would have to be pretty significant demand growth to absorb the entire manufacturing capacity of a new process node every every 2-3 years. We know the demand is there for leading edge, but what about older nodes. Specifically, as TSMC transitions to 3nm (primarily Apple to start) and more customers like AMD & nVidia move more production to 5nm, what happens to all of TSMC’s 7nm capacity if it’s no longer being used for GPU’s and desktop/laptop CPU’s? Who’s taking all that capacity?
I think its going to be used in chips for cars, for the infotainment system, dishwashers, TVs, and other appliances
They market those nodes to other customers. Apple got 5nm first but the year after AMD and Nvidia will use that node. Also makes sense because mobile chips are smaller and the yield for the much larger GPU and CPU chips will be better after the node is more mature. Flaws are usually calculated on a per area basis which is also why AMD chiplets gave them such an advantage, since a smaller chip has less chance of failure and if something goes wrong it is less to throw away.
Older nodes are still useful for other chips though. Lots of analog and mixed signal ICs are made on larger nodes because you would burn through the traces with so much current otherwise. Keysight oscilloscope ASICs for example were being made on nodes over 100nm (130nm in the 4th gen Infiniivision) but now went with a 65nm node recently. The lower cost of using an ASIC also allows them to use the same chip in many product lines. You can buy a $1000 scope with the same chip as their $50,000 or $1 million scopes. The higher tier ones use multiple chips together, while the base models share 1 chip for multiple channels.
Like in the videos said a lot of nodes get upgraded those who weren't end up the with the stuff said from @Village also there are other manufactures who can't under 20 nm those are specialist in doing chips for other uses then computer. Interesting is when we really hit the physical limits in a few years other companies then have a chance to catch up to ASML/TSMC while this will take many years it will push the prices down.
The fabs usually continue to produce chips for other customers/purposes. There is more integrated circuits in your computer than the CPU and GPU. And there is circuits in more and more other places to.
Also process improvements like recent 6nm can be viable in a nominally 7nm fab extending its prime economic life.
As costs for new processes rise, the chiplet/tile approach allowing a mix of small dies using different processes in the same package makes sense.
Thanks!
Please do a video on rowhammer attacks. Love the videos!
dude, please WRITE a book about all of these, it would be an awesome college textbook.
The strategy of developing cutting edge tech and then using that to outcompete even less advanced foundries at larger sizes is genius. not only are they in first place, then also throw rocks into the paths of those that might catch up to them eventually. Though its hugely capital intensive and might become unstable when it becomes more and more time consuming to develop next gen processes (like sub-N3)
Stellar episode as always! :D
Very interesting.
Man that's a friggin monster!
TSMC has the highest security of any fabs. you cannot bring in phones or portable media storage of any form inside.
That ain't anything new, I've worked for multiple F500's across different industries and none of them want or allow people to bring phones in key areas.
Please do a video on MEMS!
It's in his early access patreon tier.
Can you pls do a video on the RFID industry and the economics of building smaller chip fabs!
Bedankt
good vid
haha a liver buster... nice translation for 爆肝.
TSMC is Giga-Fabulous!
TSMC is a national treasure, a star of the flag. That makes it a guiding star for CCP's desire to grab it for its own control. Who knows how long Taiwan will be autonomous, and its people likewise individually? As in economics investing, guard against risk with diversification. TSMC should do more of what it's doing in AZ, but all around the Pacific, well away from the Red Dragon.
Even is China is taking over Taiwan i don't think they will be able to use TSMC fabs. It will be problem with lack of competent personell and geting resources. Then it's also likely the fabs will be sabotaged. The fabs is on the other hand a good reason for NATO to help out defend Taiwan.
One problem is that China is even more important for the global economy.
@@lubricustheslippery5028 "likely the fabs will be sabotaged" I agree. Suggested same in some other comment. TSMC should do like Russians did after Stalingrad; they moved industrial base beyond Urals. TSMC should be moving some of their fabs to other places, like Philippines, NZ, New Caledonia, etc.
@@lubricustheslippery5028 also the semiconductor supply chain is the most complex in the world. I doubt they'd be able to do anything if they were embargoed by the American/Japanese/European suppliers
@@paolo7733 China is such an important part of worlds supply chains so it will be much harder to embargo China than Russia. Sadly I don't think a wide embargo against China is realistic.
@@lubricustheslippery5028 "One problem is that China is even more important for the global economy."
I don't think so.
The Top20 export company in China, there are 16 Taiwanese companys, include top3. And China 40% export is from Taiwanese factories.
If Taiwanese company move out from China to other developing countries, China would not important for the global economy anymore.
And It is happenning.
Great video. Is NTO = New Tape Out or New Type Out?
bump this channel is 100
DRAM is pronounced "dee ram" i think. Great content anyhow
Hey, can you make a video on 2-D semiconductors?
Great insight and episode, please do an episode on the giga solar panel fabs for the modern tier 1 suppliers (like Jinko or Yingli) with new stacked solar cells taking additional spectrum and the bifacial revolution. Its the start of 3d solar panels like 3d chips. Maybe not as flashy, but important to the world.
Would love to watch videos that focus on and include cost breakdowns.
20% of budget sounds like a $20b fab has 13 $300m machines on site.
Would love to watch a video on all the costs to build these fabs, and all manufacturing facilities.
Intel building one in Ohio and Taiwan building one in Phoenix, Arizona
I just bought a lot of TSMC (US version) stock for under 100 dollars yesterday. I think over the longterm (5+ years), it should do well.
I wonder where to find ASML's presentation you mentioned in 16:23?
(except google and dig, such as: ASML high NA EUV)
Apparently TSMC decided against registering the name "GIGAFAB", at least in the US. They filed the paperwork but abandoned it in the end.
pleaseeeeeeeeee make a video of application of aiml in chip fabs like tsmc
The whole thing is so mind-boggling, it's like trying to understand the size of the universe: The human mind seems to be lagging reality.
Do you have a reference for that equation you showed? It looked like something from Factory Physics, but wanted to confirm
I wonder if TSMC will give you a factory tour when you hit 1m subs
They won’t.
@@Asianometry
Pretty sure Intel is a bit more easy however, I think quite a lot of people got peeks inside Intel's Fab's
Apparently neon gas is a key element in producing semiconductors - and Ukraine is like the biggest exporter of it… could you pls whip up a video on that? Cheers dude 😁
I will
Lol.. cheers 👍🏼
Can you do a video on China Damn construction in the Himalayas? Said to be building 300 damns and to also run out of water by 2030. Would love to hear your take on geo politics and energy/water consumption.
I only suggest this since you've recent ventured out of just making semiconductor stuff only😁
The water from glaciers won't be around for long given the increase in atmospheric temperature , better start building dams now
*Dam
@sidharth cs lol funny you say this because the only place in the world to gain water supply by recalculation of the fresh water in the world, was you guessed it the Himalayas.
what are you fucking get these fake news?
You mentioned a video you did on IBM. Consider linking these in your description so it's easier to find the video. If l was not so impressed with this video and curious to see the same for IBM l would not have bothered going into your channel to find it.
MEMS vedio please, appreciate your work.
Love your channel! Please do a really in-depth analysis of what would happen to TSMC if the Mainland invaded Taiwan. Would the fabs be easily destroyed or sabotaged? Is TSMC worthless without sufficient order flow? Would it be in China's interest to risk destroying the infrastructure? Who would lose more if the Island of Formosia were to become a war zone? Your thoughts and opinions are solicited!
currently trying to choose between offers to work at TSMC, ASML, and Tokyo Electron...I'm totally torn they're all very cool companies
Small suggestion, I can hear you clicking the (trackpad?) on your computer most every slide transition. I presume an external pointing device would avoid this.
what percentage of project cost goes to buy land? Is land costly in Taiwan?
Could you please make a video on how a smaller fab with older technology such as 180nm makes money?
What sort of customers or products tend to use these older nodes?
Are older nodes cheaper per delivered chip even with the reduced chips per wafer when performance is not a critical factor?
Older nodes just means that you can't have a lot of transistors on a wafer, but the products made on those nodes tend to only have a small number of transistors so that's not a major concern
Think about how the different functional areas scale differently and you understand.
Assuming it is a digital IC you still have to drive the output pins, leave some area for cutting, testing/contacting. => What is the point of reducing a small share of the area to be even smaller?
I'm curious what areas TSMC is doing R&D beyond the process of ever shrinking circuits. E.g. are they working on optical or quantum computing?
They have heavily invested into GaN on Si technology that is used in power electronics applications (e.g. phone chargers, computer power supplies, & EV). TSMC have developed what is called a Schottky Gate, Enhancement Mode, High Electron Mobility Transistor (HEMT) technology. They are not alone in regards to GaN HEMT technology but unique in their business model. TSMC realized that they didn't want to get involved in anything more than the semiconductor fab side of this emerging industry so they offer their GaN fab capabilities to a number of independent "fabless" companies who are looking after all other parts of the business.
These fabless GaN companies include Navitas and GaN Systems as well as STMicroelectronics - however STM have also invested directly based on their acquisition of Exagan.
12:12 Implanters are ~3-5 million so around 10 lambos lol
The sweat shops of TSMC where highly educated man trade money with their fresh liver.
The world really needs to build more fabs, the past couple of years have showed just how vulnerable the rest of the world is to chip shortages. If there was ever a major catastrophe in south east Asia like a tsunami on the level of the 2004 tsunami it could wreak havok on Taiwan and South Korea and bring the world's chip manufacturing to a halt.
TSMC rocks!
Interesting iam working in tsmc
I thought the title said Giga-Chad.
At the first half I couln't help but picture an idle/upgrade game, like "Cookie Clicker", scaling and scaling up production and technology.
Great video. But I each what others have said, it would be a nice standard to show the numbers on screen, especially when they are big, or you compare numbers. It is just less mental effort. The subtitles do help just somewhat, and most people don't turn them on just for numbers anyway.
Fab matching sounds a lot like Kaizen.
This must be why the PRC wants to dominate ROC more than ever.
No it is not, China views Taiwan as part of China and has done so from the time of Taiwan becoming Taiwan. Taiwan still claims China as well.
The progress in microfabrication is amazing, but it seems like mitigating the risks of supply problems has still been hardly considered, and the giant fabrication facilities may ultimately fail because there are simply so much that can go wrong with them. The titanic costs and almost incomprehensible complexity of these processes seems like it could become easily unmanageable at some point in the near future given hte endless resources that must be obtained, wafers, photoresists, specialty chemicals for layer deposition, metal deposition, enormous amounts of water, solvents, acids, and bases for cleaning and stripping, the dependence on many different types of photolithography processes to complete a wafer, ion implanation and annealing, among the countless other equipment and supplies. Technology is more fragile than ever and the semiconductor supply chain problems may be just a symptom that this complexity becoming too much to manage.
Does TSMC buy their EUV lithography machines from ASML or develop their own in-house?
ASML
Fuck!!! 3 football stadiums?!???! That's bananas!!!!
market control, that's the main reason for keeping the lead.
the only disappointing thing is your videos dont get the kind of views that they should.
So this is where the adeptus mechanicus began. All hail the great cathedral to the omnissiah!
Actually, Intel CE includes incremental improvements proliferated across fabs of like kind, this was also a practice of Tick-Tock. TSMC is just rebranding.
It’s about DRAM time
Ras House Music 🎶 Laborie Beach ⛱️ St Lucia
Is this where gigachads come from?
HOLD