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Pro for not killing. 1. Never risk killing someone innocent. 2. Gain public trust easier. 3. Less likely someone will act out in revenge. 4. Nice way to keep you from abusing your power. 5. Gives others the chance to reform. 6. No misguided vigilante acting out their "justice". Pro for killing. 1. Guarantees no repeat criminal action. 2. Creates greater fear in criminals to NOT commit crimes. 3. Save more tax money and stops over crowded prisons. 4. Gives law enforcement more time to work on smaller crimes. 5. Their health insurance isn't a problem. 6. Makes dealing with the criminals faster giving you more free time. You decide
Batman already technically abuses his 'power' by giving his enemies a 'fate worse thand death' it's a pretty known fact that Batman is known for to do with giving brain damage that is permanent etc.
and it's ironic for the final point to be about the wrongdoings of the Punisher because he's a 'misguided' vigilante who's acting out his justice... amazing point
@@godzillazfriction Not all encounters results in brain damage and not all brain damage is worst than death. Also when I said abuse power I mean putting limits on oneself makes them more humble and cautious.
@@randomcenturion7264 Thank you. But I think the Daredevil Netflix debate did the best job talking about both points. One of the greatness debate conversations ever.
Punisher doesn’t fight for the betterment of others. He simply enjoys killing and being in combat. Vietnam instilled within him a permanent bloodlust, and his family dying gave him a convenient target whom he could focus his urges on without worrying about the morality: criminals. He’s acknowledged this before.
@@blechb5317 That completely depends on which version of him you identify as definitive. Personally, my favorite being the Thomas Jane Punisher that we get in the 2005 Punisher game, he's so dispassionate and distant in his delivery, even when he's being humorous, that it speaks to me of a man whose only purpose left in the world is to do what he's doing. His wife, his children, they're gone. All that's left is to annihilate scumbags wherever he finds them. If he's insane, then it's not because he was always insane or always had an insatiable bloodlust or because whatever conflicts he was in (Vietnam or otherwise) broke him. It's because he had his shot at a normal life, and it was taken from him. So, now, he takes the twisted lives that criminals lead away from them. He's like Batman through a cracked mirror. The impatience that inherently comes along with fighting for a better _today_ instead of a better _tomorrow_ is the moral shortcoming of a man who had already been taught to kill, and who doesn't have enough of his life left to learn to be merciful.
"In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame it's inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law, to pursue natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is an emotional response. No, not vengeance, Punishment." The Punisher, 2004
Batman: It’s not my place to kill. Punisher: But its your place to decide for everyone else on how evil should be dealt with?! If you can’t kill that clown, no one can, right?!
That's the one problem. Batman stops others from deciding for themselves. If a cop was about to take Joker out, he'd stop him even if it's more than justified.
@@juniorjunior5884That's where you're wrong. It's not just Batman who will stop him. Jim Gordon will do it too. We have two enablers protecting the most insane madman That has ever walked this earth.
I keep waiting for the story where some vengeful victim tries to kill Joker or Two-Face or someone. You get to learn about how their whole family is gone because of thIs psycho the system won't punish. Batman still appears and breaks all their bones before they can make the kill. The villain goes back into the corrupt and toothless system. The now crippled would-be revenge is murdered in the hospital by one of the villains henchmen. Batman proceeds to not GAF.
@silverblade357 Then you don't understand Batman. He would explain that it's the courts duty to decide if someone should die, not random armed vigilantes and only use force if necessary.
Batman and punisher make good points Batman thinks that taking a pacifist route to fight crime would make Gotham less dangerous and show people there is hope However punishers way to dealing with crime is by permanently killing those that create crime so that no one gets hurt again
There are certain versions of the punisher that follow this to a T, but the main comic line punisher doesn't do this. The story itself is compelling, but in the end, he's not idealistic. And batman has become a hypocrite... you're not a pacifist if you're putting criminals in the hospital before the prison...
@deadeye6969 of course not. just, don't call it something it's not. Pacifism is the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances. And that's clearly not what batman does
Frank's way is idealistic too. Because its operating on the idea that he could eventually kill them all and the problem is forever solved which is far from realism. Frank even in the comics can never hope to kill them all neither can Batman ever hope to put them all away in Arkham or Blackgate. There are pros and cons to both. The key difference is that Frank's way unfortunately perpetuates an endless cycle of violence and revenge killings. The more extreme Frank's methods are the more extreme criminals will become in order to adapt. Which will 100% guarantee greater violence on innocent people as retaliation. Frank's way is short-term thinking. Batman's is long-term.
@@Ricky-D-GrimezzzOnly because the writers aren't willing to have a storyline where someone wants revenge on Batman's rogues gallery because they wound up having a hand in ruining the person's life. Which I'm pretty sure a lot of Gotham citizens would want to do.
@@NouveauView No, in the DCAU animated movie Batman Beyond Return of the Joker released in 2000, it was revealed that Joker and Harley kidnapped Tim Drake and tortured him into becoming a Joker Junior and in the final fight between the original Batman and Batgirl vs Joker and Harley where Tim was going to shoot Batman, he instead shot Joker ending his life.
@@LoinkLoink Batman's no kill code needs to take a hike as all it does is cause more pain and tragedy. With Injustice by letting Joker keep living he nuked Metropolis and murdered 11 Million people.
They both make very valid points in each of their arguments. “Innocents suffer and the guilty must be punished. My battlefield symbols aren't red, white or blue. They're blood red and personal.” The Punisher
Batman is an embodiment of "Idea", while Punisher is a manifestation of "Consequence" Both has different ways and results for the same goal, and they have their own flaws
Batman’s “No Kill” Rule only works when his enemies aren’t mass murderers. When whole graveyards are filled because the Joker decided to have a laugh, my sympathy for Batman’s moralizing platitudes evaporates. I agree that criminals don’t deserve to be murdered by a vigilante who, by their own arbitration, decided death was the only acceptable punishment. But then there are monsters like the Joker whose continued existence is a threat to every living being in Gotham.
That is the gotham justice system's fault. Locking him up the first time he is captured is understandable, but after he breaks out and kills again he should be labeled remorseless and given the death penalty by the court. The idea behind his no kill rule is he doesn't want to be judge jury and executioner, which he wouldn't have to be if a real judge, a real jury, and a real executioner killed joker.
@@starburst98 I don’t get why this is so hard for people to understand. The only reason his methods don’t work is because you need super villains to be reoccurring to sell comic books in a story that’s finite the villains could die, but the writing suffers because of the need to bring the Joker back every five seconds, or bring Bane back every five seconds that’s not evidence Bruce is wrong.
@@osamujapan8329main villain plot armor. From a writing perspective I understand why heros are given a no-kill rule it makes it easy to explain why the main villain lives but from a moral perspective the rule is stupid.
"Those are luxuries the real world can't afford." Gotta admit, Frank's got a point here but it works more out of the media of comic books. There are no super heroes in the real world, no costumed avengers. But there are those like the Punisher, however not usually set on the same scale as him.
Punisher: You treat your city like it’s a damn playground, Bruce. You beat up the bullies with your fists, you throw ‘‘em in jail, everybody calls a hero, right? And, within months, weeks, or even days later, they find a way out, and their back on the streets doing the SAME G**DAMN THING!! Batman: And you believe putting them in the morgue is true justice? Punisher: Damn right I do! I believe that in certain, extreme situations, the laws that you defend are inadequate and a joke. One of the reasons I do what I do is because, no one else can or will do it. Sound familiar?
Batman: You ever doubt yourself, Frank? Not even a little bit? “Oh no, I’d just killed a human being!” A human being who did a lot of bad things, maybe even evil, but has one small piece of goodness in them, maybe just a scrap or something!
punisher: you can’t deny that lives are saves because those bastards were put down. ‘You rather tell those people sorry you have to die today I promise we’ll make things better in a next life’?
Batman's no killing rule is good for a Gotham that has a functional justice system. With the amount of crimes comitted by Joker, a judge should dictate the death penalty regardless of Joker's insanity
That's the one story DC refuses to do. Joker goes to trial, is sentenced to death. Batman investigates everything and everyone, looking for the angle that this is some scheme of the Joker's or Ra's al Ghul or a dozen other conspirators. He finds it's entirely clean. He's also beaten over the head with the reality that no one living in Gotham hasn't been hurt by the Joker. Have him try for a technicality, claim that the jury can't be unbiased. The judge rejects that, because no human being exists who is fully unbiased, and the people of Gotham have a right to pass judgement as enshrined by the law. So now you have Batman, watching as the hour draws near, trying to deal with it and resolve his issues. Heck, if you want to do something really dangerous, have him converse with the Joker, and have Joker make the argument that 'This was always the only way it could end.' maybe go full 'I want to hurt you' and have him drop the 'Your just upset that the chase has to end, more than I am. I knew the act would have to end, but you?' and dissolve into laughter. The unspoken problem with Batman is that he never tries to actually Fix Gotham's justice system, possibly because he knows that's what it will lead to. (Have a vengeful Harlequinn point that out to him if you want bonus points.) Poison Ivy, Joker, Clayface, a dozen other members of his rogues gallery. All put up for execution by a jury because their crimes are beyond the pale. He has the money, the know how and if he wanted to, the influence as Bruce or Batman. It'd be easy to do. You could get any of a dozen artists, plenty of writers could handle the assignment, because it's always been out there, lingering, since the Joker kept being pushed to more and more terrorist actions. You could make it a big bat family crossover, with people going into each member's views on the matter, and have nothing change in the mainline comics if you wanted because else-worlds/multiverse is all management wants anyway.
@@cum537 There's little he could do. There are too many factors. Movie injuries are not the same as real life injuries. People die by accident in physical contact sports despite millions of dollars of research put into it to keep the athlete's safe. There are trainers that make sure the athlete's are in a good condition to compete, referees trained to look for signs of injury, and medical responders inside the building that can be there at a moments notice, yet things still go wrong. And this is comparing "fake" fights (relatively speaking) to an actual fight where the person wants to kill you, in a real world where bad guys aren't predictable caricatures.
I can’t thank you enough for not only using the image, but the voice of the punisher from that 2004 video game. Remains to this day one of my favorite games on the PS2.
@@TheCouriersGambit I know, right? I mean I know it’s impossible that you got Kevin Conroy to voice, Batman, but it’s almost as if you actually got Thomas Jane to come back and voice the punisher for this.
Punisher: How about the criminals who keep coming back? The Joker- Batman: For the last time! That's not my fault, that's the comic book industry! The fans want more Joker so he's always going to escape!
I want the forgotten villains to come back but the Joker keeps hogging it. Same for the way lex luthor keeps hogging the villain role in Superman. I want the atom man back.
My suggestion to both of them would be to adopt a three strike rule. If a criminal hasn't changed their ways after being given two chances, they're not going to.
As a huge Batman fan, Punisher definitely won that debate. I still like Batmans idealistic perspective, but Punisher is definitely a more realistic take on a dark man who seizes a war on all crime. Good video, the AI sounds pretty good
Not really then he acccpt going to jail or pusniment that what almost happend in show and movies and ani.tion when he though* he killsd* or did killd inccont persone ( one was *thing* and one was * mindo control* that got gim to poimt ..surrendering him self@twinzzlers
@@ryancialone3045Only in the shows/movies. In the comics he loves killing. After Vietnam, Frank gained an urge to kill that he couldn’t dispel. It alienated him from his family and he would hallucinate opportunities to kill others.
@@blechb5317 honestly then its just boring. because then what he does has little to do with any belief about how to deal with crime and people preying on the innocent.
@@ryancialone3045 I don’t see how that’s boring or a bad thing. That’s how he is throughout the Max comics, which are widely regarded as arguably the best material ever to feature the Punisher. It’s much more intriguing to explore a main character who’s aloof and morally grey, more creative choices than just him being yet another nice guy who got handed a bad deal by life/the system.
If only their crossover comic was like this. Screw glorfied slapfights for comic nerds to bust a nut over, I want to see superheroes fight and challenge each other for their morals and beliefs.
@@twinzzlers In the 90's there was two crossover comics involving the two, but one had Bruce while the other had Azrael. I'm mostly refering to the second crossover with Bruce as the mantle of Batman. The story is kinda mid in my opinion. Jigsaw and Joker teamup to fight the Batman and Punisher, Batman and Punisher fight for a bit before a reluant team up, standard crossover affair. I think there is a lot you can do with the crossover with Frank making as excellent Foil to Bruce in many ways, but they never touched on this aspect except at the end. In where Punisher scares the crazy out of Joker and Batman had to swoop in to save Joker from Punisher's excution.
@thorwhitaker Yeah the part where Batman has to save Joker sounds familiar. It honestly has potential where you get a twisted good cop and bad cop scenario out of it, and if the author is smart, a very tense but engaging moral debate on killing villains.
@@johnnykopp7304Something similar can be said for Punisher. He keeps killing and killing, yet the amount of goons and thugs on the streets remains the same, even growing in opposition of Punisher’s efforts. He killed two rapists, there’s five more around the corner. He wipes out a room full of mafia goons, there’s dozens of others in that city block alone. He never makes any actual meaningful change, the level violence and suffering never decreases in his case.
@@blechb5317 if anything, the goons and criminals not only come back but get more violent and dangerous in response to frank. crime will alway exsist. its part of human nature.
@@ShintigercurlThat's what Frank doesn't seem to grasp and Bruce understands well. Violence begets more violence, death begets more death. Punisher's methods are just as much of a predictably vicious cycle as he claims Batman's are.
There’s respect in both mens tones Batman in some ways pities Frank for everything he went through and in away bats maybe looking at dark mirror of himself had he let anger rule him Frank also says bruce goals are admirable noble even but the real world stomps on hope No hate no anger between them just respect
One thing I wish Marvel would explore more of is “what if the Punisher kills an innocent” like what happened to the original Ultimate Spider man. We see he becomes immediately ashamed of himself screaming “punish me” before Cap decks him.
Frank would probably do his damnedest to make sure their family is taken care of before setting up some suicide mission. Granted, he'd probably learn he was framed or something before he followed through.
@@silverblade357 while I get the second half, I’m talking about if he actually does kill an innocent. Be it a stray shot or he pulls the trigger too quickly after seeing movement.
I think this happened once where he got tricked into thinking his actions killed an innocent girl He was about to blow his brains out when he noticed the bullet wounds the girl had didn’t match the caliber he had used
if Punisher kills innocents whether it is accidentally or purposely done without caring that innocents died then he'd become just like Aiden Pearce from Watch Dogs 1...
The one thing that I think this debate gets wrong is that the punisher actually does enjoy killing. In fact he relishes in it, Frank never pretends to be a paragon of morality, he's just obsessed with with his work. After his family died so did Frank, he rose up as the punisher with the sole purpose to punish, he's an agent of death and revenge, Frank is gone, there is only the punisher.
@@GnosisZX well, Batman originally killed, and used to go around with a gun, the original idea is a thing of the past, is the reinvention of the character, the one that made them the icon we know nowadays the one that matters
bruce was lucky bastard that still had alfred, james gordon, thomas elliot hush and leslie tompkins comfort him when he was kid. meanwhile frank had no else when his family die, not even had a fortune either
I mean that comfort didn't mean shit he was going to be batman one way or the other and Bruce Wayne doesent exist Bruce Wayne isn't Bruce Wayne hes batman this is actually psychopathic devoting ones complete life to an role they made up themselves neglecting who they are got an persona sparked from vengeance and anger
I remember there was a DC marvel crossover comic I think in the late 80s or 90s and in it Punisher was sent to Gotham During the events of the story he began tracking down the Joker And the punisher TERRFIED the joker Joker had no qualms with dying if it was him forcing a hero’s hand making them break their oh so precious moral rules But Frank? Killing Joker wouldn’t have been crossing some line It wouldn’t be some moment that stuck with Frank It would have mattered to Frank as much as a garbage man stopping at a house to throw the garbage in the truck Once Joker realized his death would mean nothing to the punisher he began running to Batman for protection
I’ll take a page out of Batman’s book with this quote from good ole Captain Price. “At the end of the day, somebody has to make the enemy scared of the dark.”
Can I suggest one idea for a video? Batman and a Night Lord from 40k or Batman and Konrad Curze himself. I think it would be super cool to see someone even more extreme than the punisher himself Cheers from Argentina
I get a lot of requests for Warhammer but have never played/watched. Let me do some research on these characters and see about making a video :) Cheers!
@@khylerbane4523 the thing about Curze is that he is basically Batman but multiplied by 100. Young Konrad is Young bruce, Nostromo is Gotham and the Night Hunter's methos don't even discriminate children
Frank also has lines. He won't attack clean cops, for example. He won't kill the innocent. Bruce thinks killing makes you as bad as the criminals. "Kill a killer, and the number of killers is unchanged" and all that. But he holds himself to an unrealistic standard. He's a hero we can look up to. Frank is an anti-hero we can relate to.
Frank answered every one of Bruce's questions perfectly and logically and owned him with the perfect statement "You're okay with crippling petty criminals, but when it comes to killing a psychopathic clown that's a no no" loved it!
Because Batman is a stooge of the state. The same state that’s soft on crime and continues to allow regular citizens to be victimized by the same criminals they keep letting off the hook time and time again. The state wants to confiscate your guns, defund the police, and release criminals from jail. That my friend, is a cocktail for disaster.
These two guys have good methods of taking down criminals, but none of them are wrong. They would debate nonstop to the point that it becomes a civil war, but Jason Todd/Red Hood will be on Punisher’s side.
Something that bothers me of all these videos is the way everyone "forgets" to include that Batman also targets political corruption to ensure the system he protects DOES work, working as Bruce Wayne to ensure rehabilitation works too. Gotham is a perpetual source of crime and Batman curiously never gives the Joker these "life crippling injuries and brain damage" (despite being LITERALLY THE CRIMINAL HE BEATS THE MOST) that he supposedly gives to low tier criminals (which literally has no basis in almost no comic) for the same Reason Punisher, the dude everyone thinks is so much better than Batman, perpetually fights hordes of criminals spawning out of nowhere: Corporate selling of comics. These debates are never looked at with all the actual motives behind each one's reasoning, both lorewise and metawise.
Man, the qualityof this makes me wish see an argument between johnny silerhand and padme amidala or batman trying to convince anakin skywalker not to kill that would be awesome, well done by the way
Batman: How many lines are you willing to cross until there’s nothing left of the man you once were, the man that your family loved? Punisher: Your a little too late to ask me that now, Batman. Frank Castle, the man who came back home to be with his family, the man I once was, he’s already dead. He died with family! And it sure as hell wasn’t crossing any lines that killed him, his wife and 2 children.
@@Randomaccount9470 batman: when did I do that and when I killed him the police chased me and tell me how is your main enemy still alive remember jigsaw never dies isn't that what will happen to me too joker will come back again
There was a DC And Marvel crossover event a few years back. Punisher went to gotham. Lets jus say it was the first time iv seen Joker terrified in comics
And I was going to love that comic to bits… Until Batman ruined that by saving Joker. And I was so tempted to rip that comic and throw it flames. That was probably the one thing that made me hate Batman forever.
I wonder what would happen if Bruce Wayne met his father Thomas Wayne from Flashpoint and discuss the 'no killing rule' and justice. Thomas Wayne's Batman was pretty much Punisher as he killed his enemies and villains. I would love to see that. Bruce hearing that his Batman kills people and stuff.
Batman wants to be a better man and set a good example, Punisher is a soldier, his method is "take out the target, move on to the next" in the Netflix version he gets off on murdering criminals.
Do batman vs judge dredd, a vigilante who against killing Vs the guy who the law recognize and give the power and permission as the judge, jury and executioner.
How many people did the Joker, alone, killed because the system would enact justice on him? Someone said Batman is fighting for a better tomorrow. I've seen at least 3 iterations of his tomorrow, and they're never better.
It's a shame that the main comic line Punisher does not follow through with any of these ideals... I love the Punisher stories and he's still one of my favorites, but I'd pick This over the main one any day
I have NEVER seen Punisher kill someone and think to myself “Did that guy deserve it?” it’s never a question that comes to mind. Punisher is like a man possessed by an Angel in God him-selves army. I’d rather live and raise my family in a city that Punisher is financed (Batman level of money) to have full reign to protect over Batman.
"I think you're wrong, I think there's no good in the filth that I put down. Look at this city, it stinks. It smells like shit, and I can't get the stink out of my nose. I think that this world, it needs men that are willing to make the hard call." - The Punisher
batman- killing makes us monsters. if we do it, we are no better than the criminals we fight. punisher- seriously? bro. so i cant kill a homicidal rapist, but you can put a man in the hospital for jaywalking?
In certain extreme situations the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy it is sometimes necessary to pursue natural justice - Frank Castle.
The Joker: Look Bats, I burnt down all the orphanages, gave Robin aids and cancer, and murdered Alfred on international television. Batman: i WoN't KiLl YoU The Joker: Look Pun.... The Punisher: *blows the Joker head clean off* who's next? Batman: You killed my boyfriend!
Both Batman and the Punisher have both good points and biases. Batman has a Code Against Killing, probably because his dead parents were philanthropists and doctors, who probably taught him their Hippocratic Oath at an early age. This may explain his sympathy for Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Killer Croc, and Clayface's medical conditions. As Bruce Wayne, he carries on his family's charity work, and went undercover in Tibet as a homeless thief, to learn necessary street smarts, martial arts, and imaginary science, which explains his empathy with the poor and relative mercy to criminals, since he too had to steal to survive poverty. He probably finds gun violence too "triggering" to use himself, nor permit others to do in his presence, due to the PTSD which inspired him to train to become a superhero. It probably causes his empathy for his rogues' gallery's mental illnesses. Batman's rogues' gallery are supervillains, who have higher prison breakout rates than other offenders, because their higher technology or superpowers exceed the typical steel bars, concrete walls and security of jails, prisons and mental hospitals, such as Arkham Asylum. These advantages also make them harder to kill. Firearms would not hurt Clayface or Solomon Grundy, for example. The Joker, a Badass Normal, survives lots of injuries that would kill anyone else. Batman probably couldn't kill him if he tried. The Punisher grew up in a tough neighborhood and was a Vietnam veteran before the Maggia killed his family, so he is accustomed to the fear of crime, vigilantism and fatally shooting his enemies. His resulting PTSD makes him jumpy, paranoid and easily angered, with homicidal ideation. The Punisher's villains are just gangsters, and therefore mortal. They only get out of incarceration by bail, parole, acquittal, or bribery.
Excellent hypothetical conversation. But I did notice when Frank gave his reasons Bruce would move the goal post and reestablish what he believes. Borderline gaslighting. Well done👍🏼💯
I’ll take the punisher as my protector because the joker is the joker he is running rampant out there for the love of it and Batman’s methods however pure refuse to deal with him ensuring the continuity of his spree even villains have a bunker where they go when the joker his having an event
Batman's villains are able to revel in their villainy because they have every confidence that their favorite spec ops furry will get to them before the SWAT Teams!
Problem with Franks method is that inspires others to take the law into their own hands and believe they to can decided who lives and who does say what you want about Bruce but his no killing rule highlights that everyone even a murderer has people who can possibly care about them. Frank is a good escapist character but in reality his methods really are just a mass murderer who decided to choose a more socially acceptable victim
I'm more with the Punisher. The way of Batman works with little Criminals. But not with villains like the Joker or Riddler. There exists a comic with Batman and the Punisher. The Punisher was close to kill the Joker, but Batman stop him and let the Joker run. This was a point where I think, Batman is not a Hero. If he let the Joker, a murderous psychopath who is more than dangerous, run. The Punisher even say it, "How many times you put that maniac in? I can end it here, right now." And yes, here I'm with the Punisher. Some criminals are too dangerous to let them life. And here is the point, where Batman failed and has also blood on his hands. Blood from all the people the Joker and other villains killed, because Batman don't kill them.
I would love to see Batman debate the doctor on the need to fight/kills and how that defines their morality. Especially the tenth doctor who And whilst frank made an active choice to ensure proper safety and finality with his actions. His devolvement is more akin to travis bickle in taxi driver. I find a better version of his accepted moral lines and pushing them Dexter actually does his job better and more morally than frank. I’d side slightly more with Batman but sympathise more with frank due to Dexter doing it better.
Have had a lot of suggestions for this debate, let me know what you think!
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Batman vs Anakin Skywalker or Darth Vader
2B vs spider-Man.
can you do one with batman and judge dredd
Do you do Batman meets dredd It be very interesting to see what their views are like on how the law should be
Who is voicing Punisher ?
“You hit em they get back up. I hit em and they STAY DOWN!!”
- Punisher
Until the next reboot.
That's practically what Batman already does by time somebody regains consciousness after getting hit by Batman there already in the ER
Punisher is extremists it's like comparing a boyscott to a harden navy seal. Especially the 1980s.
Well that's why Batman breaks their legs so they don't get up again
Permanently.
Pro for not killing.
1. Never risk killing someone innocent.
2. Gain public trust easier.
3. Less likely someone will act out in revenge.
4. Nice way to keep you from abusing your power.
5. Gives others the chance to reform.
6. No misguided vigilante acting out their "justice".
Pro for killing.
1. Guarantees no repeat criminal action.
2. Creates greater fear in criminals to NOT commit crimes.
3. Save more tax money and stops over crowded prisons.
4. Gives law enforcement more time to work on smaller crimes.
5. Their health insurance isn't a problem.
6. Makes dealing with the criminals faster giving you more free time.
You decide
Fair list
Batman already technically abuses his 'power' by giving his enemies a 'fate worse thand death' it's a pretty known fact that Batman is known for to do with giving brain damage that is permanent etc.
and it's ironic for the final point to be about the wrongdoings of the Punisher because he's a 'misguided' vigilante who's acting out his justice... amazing point
@@godzillazfriction Not all encounters results in brain damage and not all brain damage is worst than death. Also when I said abuse power I mean putting limits on oneself makes them more humble and cautious.
@@randomcenturion7264 Thank you. But I think the Daredevil Netflix debate did the best job talking about both points. One of the greatness debate conversations ever.
Batman is fighting for a better tomorrow.
Punisher is fighting for a better today.
I like that
Not really, batman's method is predictable for criminal to realize they can do whatever they want as long as the court keep defending them
EPIC! So true!
Punisher doesn’t fight for the betterment of others. He simply enjoys killing and being in combat. Vietnam instilled within him a permanent bloodlust, and his family dying gave him a convenient target whom he could focus his urges on without worrying about the morality: criminals. He’s acknowledged this before.
@@blechb5317 That completely depends on which version of him you identify as definitive. Personally, my favorite being the Thomas Jane Punisher that we get in the 2005 Punisher game, he's so dispassionate and distant in his delivery, even when he's being humorous, that it speaks to me of a man whose only purpose left in the world is to do what he's doing. His wife, his children, they're gone. All that's left is to annihilate scumbags wherever he finds them. If he's insane, then it's not because he was always insane or always had an insatiable bloodlust or because whatever conflicts he was in (Vietnam or otherwise) broke him.
It's because he had his shot at a normal life, and it was taken from him. So, now, he takes the twisted lives that criminals lead away from them. He's like Batman through a cracked mirror.
The impatience that inherently comes along with fighting for a better _today_ instead of a better _tomorrow_ is the moral shortcoming of a man who had already been taught to kill, and who doesn't have enough of his life left to learn to be merciful.
"In certain extreme situations, the law is inadequate. In order to shame it's inadequacy, it is necessary to act outside the law, to pursue natural justice. This is not vengeance. Revenge is an emotional response. No, not vengeance, Punishment."
The Punisher, 2004
One of the best lines in the whole movie.
Based
You just forgot "revenge is not a valid motive", but other than that it's perfect.
My favourite childhood movie
Punisher Warzone comic.
Good movie, good comic.
“You talk about lines but I don’t think you even know where yours begins and ends.”
Hardest line in this entire video.
Yeah batman got owned
Batman: It’s not my place to kill.
Punisher: But its your place to decide for everyone else on how evil should be dealt with?! If you can’t kill that clown, no one can, right?!
That's the one problem.
Batman stops others from deciding for themselves.
If a cop was about to take Joker out, he'd stop him even if it's more than justified.
@@juniorjunior5884That's where you're wrong. It's not just Batman who will stop him. Jim Gordon will do it too. We have two enablers protecting the most insane madman That has ever walked this earth.
I keep waiting for the story where some vengeful victim tries to kill Joker or Two-Face or someone. You get to learn about how their whole family is gone because of thIs psycho the system won't punish. Batman still appears and breaks all their bones before they can make the kill. The villain goes back into the corrupt and toothless system. The now crippled would-be revenge is murdered in the hospital by one of the villains henchmen. Batman proceeds to not GAF.
@silverblade357 Then you don't understand Batman. He would explain that it's the courts duty to decide if someone should die, not random armed vigilantes and only use force if necessary.
@@twinzzlers Doesn't Gotham City canonically *not* even have the death penalty?
Batman and punisher make good points
Batman thinks that taking a pacifist route to fight crime would make Gotham less dangerous and show people there is hope
However punishers way to dealing with crime is by permanently killing those that create crime so that no one gets hurt again
"Every lowlife, every maggot piece of shit down I did it because I liked it! Hell I loved it!" -Frank Castle, Daredevil Season 2.
There are certain versions of the punisher that follow this to a T, but the main comic line punisher doesn't do this. The story itself is compelling, but in the end, he's not idealistic. And batman has become a hypocrite... you're not a pacifist if you're putting criminals in the hospital before the prison...
@scilvortenebrae what is your general idea of what a pacifist should be? And what exactly should batman do? Use his words?
@deadeye6969 of course not. just, don't call it something it's not. Pacifism is the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances. And that's clearly not what batman does
@@scilvortenebrae fair point
"Your idealism is admirable, but it's not realism."
Frank's way is idealistic too. Because its operating on the idea that he could eventually kill them all and the problem is forever solved which is far from realism. Frank even in the comics can never hope to kill them all neither can Batman ever hope to put them all away in Arkham or Blackgate. There are pros and cons to both. The key difference is that Frank's way unfortunately perpetuates an endless cycle of violence and revenge killings. The more extreme Frank's methods are the more extreme criminals will become in order to adapt. Which will 100% guarantee greater violence on innocent people as retaliation.
Frank's way is short-term thinking. Batman's is long-term.
@@Ricky-D-GrimezzzOnly because the writers aren't willing to have a storyline where someone wants revenge on Batman's rogues gallery because they wound up having a hand in ruining the person's life. Which I'm pretty sure a lot of Gotham citizens would want to do.
Batman: If i cross that line, I will become like them.
Punisher: Your boy Tim suffered because of it, and he became them.
You mean Jason
@@NouveauView No, in the DCAU animated movie Batman Beyond Return of the Joker released in 2000, it was revealed that Joker and Harley kidnapped Tim Drake and tortured him into becoming a Joker Junior and in the final fight between the original Batman and Batgirl vs Joker and Harley where Tim was going to shoot Batman, he instead shot Joker ending his life.
@@animeman8203 Yes, but that was for the most part a one-time thing. Jason consistently becomes a criminal who goes against Batman's no-killing code.
@@LoinkLoink Batman's no kill code needs to take a hike as all it does is cause more pain and tragedy. With Injustice by letting Joker keep living he nuked Metropolis and murdered 11 Million people.
Yup @@animeman8203
Frank is a realist, Bruce is an idealist
They both make very valid points in each of their arguments.
“Innocents suffer and the guilty must be punished. My battlefield symbols aren't red, white or blue. They're blood red and personal.” The Punisher
"You hit 'em they get back up, I hit 'em they stay down" - Punisher
The Punisher isn't wrong.
Kratos and Joel Discuss being Single Fathers
Joel ain't a single father.
He's a former father.
@@UtubeH8tr A former single father
Over a game of golf
Abby vs Kratos. Golf club vs Blades of chaos.
@@DoomguyIsGrinningAtYou.Golf club solos
Judge Dredd & Punisher
Dredd would have him hired.
@@Peter_Turbo4 Dredd would despise him, he hates vigilantes and he made it clear.
They would probably agree, i mean if anything Dredd is what Punisher does but legal
@@Blowtorch87 You ain’t know jack shit about Dredd, do you.
Punisher:-I like to kill bad guys
Judge Dredd:-Me too
Punisher:-Cool
Batman is an embodiment of "Idea", while Punisher is a manifestation of "Consequence"
Both has different ways and results for the same goal, and they have their own flaws
Batman’s “No Kill” Rule only works when his enemies aren’t mass murderers. When whole graveyards are filled because the Joker decided to have a laugh, my sympathy for Batman’s moralizing platitudes evaporates. I agree that criminals don’t deserve to be murdered by a vigilante who, by their own arbitration, decided death was the only acceptable punishment. But then there are monsters like the Joker whose continued existence is a threat to every living being in Gotham.
That is the gotham justice system's fault. Locking him up the first time he is captured is understandable, but after he breaks out and kills again he should be labeled remorseless and given the death penalty by the court. The idea behind his no kill rule is he doesn't want to be judge jury and executioner, which he wouldn't have to be if a real judge, a real jury, and a real executioner killed joker.
But the irony is that even with antiheroes like the Punisher, the main villains still alive.
@@starburst98 I don’t get why this is so hard for people to understand. The only reason his methods don’t work is because you need super villains to be reoccurring to sell comic books in a story that’s finite the villains could die, but the writing suffers because of the need to bring the Joker back every five seconds, or bring Bane back every five seconds that’s not evidence Bruce is wrong.
@@osamujapan8329main villain plot armor. From a writing perspective I understand why heros are given a no-kill rule it makes it easy to explain why the main villain lives but from a moral perspective the rule is stupid.
@@starburst98theyre both stupid tbh
"Those are luxuries the real world can't afford."
Gotta admit, Frank's got a point here but it works more out of the media of comic books. There are no super heroes in the real world, no costumed avengers. But there are those like the Punisher, however not usually set on the same scale as him.
Punisher: You treat your city like it’s a damn playground, Bruce. You beat up the bullies with your fists, you throw ‘‘em in jail, everybody calls a hero, right? And, within months, weeks, or even days later, they find a way out, and their back on the streets doing the SAME G**DAMN THING!!
Batman: And you believe putting them in the morgue is true justice?
Punisher: Damn right I do! I believe that in certain, extreme situations, the laws that you defend are inadequate and a joke. One of the reasons I do what I do is because, no one else can or will do it. Sound familiar?
Batman: You ever doubt yourself, Frank? Not even a little bit? “Oh no, I’d just killed a human being!” A human being who did a lot of bad things, maybe even evil, but has one small piece of goodness in them, maybe just a scrap or something!
punisher: you can’t deny that lives are saves because those bastards were put down. ‘You rather tell those people sorry you have to die today I promise we’ll make things better in a next life’?
What issue was this from?
@@vincentmcgettigan7948 It’s not from an issue.
@@twistoffatemaster Where's it from?
Batman's no killing rule is good for a Gotham that has a functional justice system. With the amount of crimes comitted by Joker, a judge should dictate the death penalty regardless of Joker's insanity
That's the one story DC refuses to do. Joker goes to trial, is sentenced to death. Batman investigates everything and everyone, looking for the angle that this is some scheme of the Joker's or Ra's al Ghul or a dozen other conspirators. He finds it's entirely clean. He's also beaten over the head with the reality that no one living in Gotham hasn't been hurt by the Joker.
Have him try for a technicality, claim that the jury can't be unbiased. The judge rejects that, because no human being exists who is fully unbiased, and the people of Gotham have a right to pass judgement as enshrined by the law.
So now you have Batman, watching as the hour draws near, trying to deal with it and resolve his issues.
Heck, if you want to do something really dangerous, have him converse with the Joker, and have Joker make the argument that 'This was always the only way it could end.' maybe go full 'I want to hurt you' and have him drop the 'Your just upset that the chase has to end, more than I am. I knew the act would have to end, but you?' and dissolve into laughter.
The unspoken problem with Batman is that he never tries to actually Fix Gotham's justice system, possibly because he knows that's what it will lead to. (Have a vengeful Harlequinn point that out to him if you want bonus points.) Poison Ivy, Joker, Clayface, a dozen other members of his rogues gallery. All put up for execution by a jury because their crimes are beyond the pale. He has the money, the know how and if he wanted to, the influence as Bruce or Batman.
It'd be easy to do. You could get any of a dozen artists, plenty of writers could handle the assignment, because it's always been out there, lingering, since the Joker kept being pushed to more and more terrorist actions. You could make it a big bat family crossover, with people going into each member's views on the matter, and have nothing change in the mainline comics if you wanted because else-worlds/multiverse is all management wants anyway.
In reality Batman would have so many manslaughter charges due to accidental deaths and collateral damage.
No he wouldn’t bro would get charges for disabling this mf and putting them in debt cuz of their hospital bills 😭😭
Assuming Batman wails on people without a second thought. All it takes is one coordinated strike to the temple and you can totally kill someone.
you dont think the literal superhero billionaire couldnt figure out how to not accidentally kill people
@@cum537 There's little he could do. There are too many factors. Movie injuries are not the same as real life injuries. People die by accident in physical contact sports despite millions of dollars of research put into it to keep the athlete's safe. There are trainers that make sure the athlete's are in a good condition to compete, referees trained to look for signs of injury, and medical responders inside the building that can be there at a moments notice, yet things still go wrong. And this is comparing "fake" fights (relatively speaking) to an actual fight where the person wants to kill you, in a real world where bad guys aren't predictable caricatures.
I mean he's not wrong in arkham knight you yeat mf with a tank and Electric s them at the same time still goated rip kevin rip arkham batman
I can’t thank you enough for not only using the image, but the voice of the punisher from that 2004 video game. Remains to this day one of my favorite games on the PS2.
AMEN
haha you're welcome! Seemed fitting
@@TheCouriersGambit I know, right? I mean I know it’s impossible that you got Kevin Conroy to voice, Batman, but it’s almost as if you actually got Thomas Jane to come back and voice the punisher for this.
Thomas Jane is still my goat Punisher. I’m glad, even if it’s just AI, that we got Kevin & Thomas together.
Thomas Jane is just so good as the punisher. Both in live action and in voice acting
Punisher: How about the criminals who keep coming back? The Joker-
Batman: For the last time! That's not my fault, that's the comic book industry! The fans want more Joker so he's always going to escape!
If only the fans could kill joker for good by saying Batman was chasing the joker and he fell into a volcano and burned to death or something.
I want the forgotten villains to come back but the Joker keeps hogging it.
Same for the way lex luthor keeps hogging the villain role in Superman. I want the atom man back.
@rickoshay5525 A comic where the courts actually put Joker on death row would be cool, or a comic where Bane breaks Superman
@@twinzzlers But then brought them both back XD
It's true, Joker's longevity ultimately says a lot about those who keep him in demand.
My suggestion to both of them would be to adopt a three strike rule. If a criminal hasn't changed their ways after being given two chances, they're not going to.
“I didn’t choose this war, but I intend to finish it.”
As a huge Batman fan, Punisher definitely won that debate. I still like Batmans idealistic perspective, but Punisher is definitely a more realistic take on a dark man who seizes a war on all crime. Good video, the AI sounds pretty good
Oh god finally someone with a f* brain that doesn't ride that bat meat and use his damn mind! Thank you!
Whatever he says will hold up, sure, until he kills someone who didn't deserve it. What then?
@@twinzzlershe hasn’t punisher isn’t sloppy
@@retronerds6884 Doesn't matter, eventually he'll fuck up
Not really then he acccpt going to jail or pusniment that what almost happend in show and movies and ani.tion when he though* he killsd* or did killd inccont persone ( one was *thing* and one was * mindo control* that got gim to poimt ..surrendering him self@twinzzlers
The Punisher is simultaneously a monster and exceptionally human.
it's genuinely not something he enjoys just something he feels he needs to do.
Depends on the interpretation@@ryancialone3045
@@ryancialone3045Only in the shows/movies. In the comics he loves killing. After Vietnam, Frank gained an urge to kill that he couldn’t dispel. It alienated him from his family and he would hallucinate opportunities to kill others.
@@blechb5317 honestly then its just boring. because then what he does has little to do with any belief about how to deal with crime and people preying on the innocent.
@@ryancialone3045 I don’t see how that’s boring or a bad thing. That’s how he is throughout the Max comics, which are widely regarded as arguably the best material ever to feature the Punisher. It’s much more intriguing to explore a main character who’s aloof and morally grey, more creative choices than just him being yet another nice guy who got handed a bad deal by life/the system.
If only their crossover comic was like this.
Screw glorfied slapfights for comic nerds to bust a nut over, I want to see superheroes fight and challenge each other for their morals and beliefs.
What happened in their crossover?
@@twinzzlers In the 90's there was two crossover comics involving the two, but one had Bruce while the other had Azrael. I'm mostly refering to the second crossover with Bruce as the mantle of Batman. The story is kinda mid in my opinion. Jigsaw and Joker teamup to fight the Batman and Punisher, Batman and Punisher fight for a bit before a reluant team up, standard crossover affair. I think there is a lot you can do with the crossover with Frank making as excellent Foil to Bruce in many ways, but they never touched on this aspect except at the end. In where Punisher scares the crazy out of Joker and Batman had to swoop in to save Joker from Punisher's excution.
@thorwhitaker Yeah the part where Batman has to save Joker sounds familiar. It honestly has potential where you get a twisted good cop and bad cop scenario out of it, and if the author is smart, a very tense but engaging moral debate on killing villains.
I’m surprised Batman didn’t talk about redemption, a decent number of his villains have become at least antiheroes in part because of him
But in many cases, it never lasts. Sooner or later many of the so-called “reformed” villains go right back to their criminal ways.
@@johnnykopp7304Something similar can be said for Punisher. He keeps killing and killing, yet the amount of goons and thugs on the streets remains the same, even growing in opposition of Punisher’s efforts. He killed two rapists, there’s five more around the corner. He wipes out a room full of mafia goons, there’s dozens of others in that city block alone. He never makes any actual meaningful change, the level violence and suffering never decreases in his case.
Yeah they change after hitting triple digit body counts😂
@@blechb5317 if anything, the goons and criminals not only come back but get more violent and dangerous in response to frank. crime will alway exsist. its part of human nature.
@@ShintigercurlThat's what Frank doesn't seem to grasp and Bruce understands well. Violence begets more violence, death begets more death. Punisher's methods are just as much of a predictably vicious cycle as he claims Batman's are.
childhood is idolizing batman. Growing up is realising punisher is right
There’s respect in both mens tones Batman in some ways pities Frank for everything he went through and in away bats maybe looking at dark mirror of himself had he let anger rule him
Frank also says bruce goals are admirable noble even but the real world stomps on hope
No hate no anger between them just respect
This is why theyre the goats
@@manintheline5331men are brave
Yeah, i appreciate that in the writing here.
One thing I wish Marvel would explore more of is “what if the Punisher kills an innocent” like what happened to the original Ultimate Spider man. We see he becomes immediately ashamed of himself screaming “punish me” before Cap decks him.
Frank would probably do his damnedest to make sure their family is taken care of before setting up some suicide mission. Granted, he'd probably learn he was framed or something before he followed through.
@@silverblade357 while I get the second half, I’m talking about if he actually does kill an innocent. Be it a stray shot or he pulls the trigger too quickly after seeing movement.
@@jakecarroll9500
Ever seen Punisher War Zone?
I think this happened once where he got tricked into thinking his actions killed an innocent girl
He was about to blow his brains out when he noticed the bullet wounds the girl had didn’t match the caliber he had used
if Punisher kills innocents whether it is accidentally or purposely done without caring that innocents died then he'd become just like Aiden Pearce from Watch Dogs 1...
The one thing that I think this debate gets wrong is that the punisher actually does enjoy killing. In fact he relishes in it, Frank never pretends to be a paragon of morality, he's just obsessed with with his work. After his family died so did Frank, he rose up as the punisher with the sole purpose to punish, he's an agent of death and revenge, Frank is gone, there is only the punisher.
That was something that was added but wasn’t in original runs
Depends on the runs, Punisher Max definitely loves killing
In Punisher Born it shows Frank loved war so much like it was a drug he needed....more then his family.
@@willambonney like was said not og run
@@GnosisZX well, Batman originally killed, and used to go around with a gun, the original idea is a thing of the past,
is the reinvention of the character, the one that made them the icon we know nowadays the one that matters
In the end, punisher does know when someone deserves death and doesn't deserve it.
I don't think Spiderman and other innocent people died bc of that monster
@@GreenEagle-p7zhe never killed any innocent people
@@jacoblikesbacon588 WHAT HE KILLED A CHILD IN VEITNAM WAR HE KILLED MARVEL UNIVERSE YOU JUST KNOW HIM FROM THE LIVE ACTIONS
@@GreenEagle-p7z😂😂😂😂😊
And what gives him the right to decide between life and death?
bruce was lucky bastard that still had alfred, james gordon, thomas elliot hush and leslie tompkins comfort him when he was kid. meanwhile frank had no else when his family die, not even had a fortune either
I mean that comfort didn't mean shit he was going to be batman one way or the other and Bruce Wayne doesent exist Bruce Wayne isn't Bruce Wayne hes batman this is actually psychopathic devoting ones complete life to an role they made up themselves neglecting who they are got an persona sparked from vengeance and anger
Yeah he would be a criminal if he doesn't have a family
Batman: Save and protect the innocent.
Punisher: consequences for the guilty.
A middle man is needed here honestly 😅
I get the feeling Frank Castle and Red Hood would agree with each other’s methods.
Batman : Frank no
Punisher : Frank yes
Thwartin' muh plans?
I remember there was a DC marvel crossover comic I think in the late 80s or 90s and in it Punisher was sent to Gotham
During the events of the story he began tracking down the Joker
And the punisher TERRFIED the joker
Joker had no qualms with dying if it was him forcing a hero’s hand making them break their oh so precious moral rules
But Frank?
Killing Joker wouldn’t have been crossing some line
It wouldn’t be some moment that stuck with Frank
It would have mattered to Frank as much as a garbage man stopping at a house to throw the garbage in the truck
Once Joker realized his death would mean nothing to the punisher he began running to Batman for protection
It was a 90s crossover and joker didn’t run for protection Batman showed up to save the joker let that sink in Batman saved the joker
I’ll take a page out of Batman’s book with this quote from good ole Captain Price. “At the end of the day, somebody has to make the enemy scared of the dark.”
Can I suggest one idea for a video? Batman and a Night Lord from 40k or Batman and Konrad Curze himself. I think it would be super cool to see someone even more extreme than the punisher himself
Cheers from Argentina
I get a lot of requests for Warhammer but have never played/watched. Let me do some research on these characters and see about making a video :) Cheers!
That would be interesting. Curze is Batmans and Punishers goal of ending crime and injustice but with the morals and methods of Joker and Jigsaw.
@@khylerbane4523 the thing about Curze is that he is basically Batman but multiplied by 100. Young Konrad is Young bruce, Nostromo is Gotham and the Night Hunter's methos don't even discriminate children
Frank also has lines. He won't attack clean cops, for example. He won't kill the innocent.
Bruce thinks killing makes you as bad as the criminals. "Kill a killer, and the number of killers is unchanged" and all that. But he holds himself to an unrealistic standard.
He's a hero we can look up to. Frank is an anti-hero we can relate to.
Spider man is killer right 😂😂😂
The innocents who he killed by some robot he committed a war crimes
That batman voice is pretty damn good
Punisher's is a little bit louder his.
@@danielpeek4245 It’s Thomas Jane voice and Kevin Conroy is Batman/ Bruce Wayne.
Can we get a Frank Castle and Jason Todd just ramping each other up.
"All the people I've murdered by letting you live."
Batman during his final fight with the Joker in The Dark Knight Returns.
Tbf at that point even he saw he was being naive and fixed it
Frank answered every one of Bruce's questions perfectly and logically and owned him with the perfect statement "You're okay with crippling petty criminals, but when it comes to killing a psychopathic clown that's a no no" loved it!
Because Batman is a stooge of the state. The same state that’s soft on crime and continues to allow regular citizens to be victimized by the same criminals they keep letting off the hook time and time again. The state wants to confiscate your guns, defund the police, and release criminals from jail. That my friend, is a cocktail for disaster.
Not gonna lie he cooked Batman 😂😂
@@retronerds6884I wouldn’t say he cooked Batman. Batman held his own
@@cephas5053 nah he cooked batman Frank answered him everytime even call him out on his bullshit batman danced around but gave no actual answer
Ya that made me laugh. It's so true. Batman annoys me. Beating everyone acting tuff. But hiding his identity bcuz he's a billionaire
These two guys have good methods of taking down criminals, but none of them are wrong. They would debate nonstop to the point that it becomes a civil war, but Jason Todd/Red Hood will be on Punisher’s side.
Something that bothers me of all these videos is the way everyone "forgets" to include that Batman also targets political corruption to ensure the system he protects DOES work, working as Bruce Wayne to ensure rehabilitation works too. Gotham is a perpetual source of crime and Batman curiously never gives the Joker these "life crippling injuries and brain damage" (despite being LITERALLY THE CRIMINAL HE BEATS THE MOST) that he supposedly gives to low tier criminals (which literally has no basis in almost no comic) for the same Reason Punisher, the dude everyone thinks is so much better than Batman, perpetually fights hordes of criminals spawning out of nowhere: Corporate selling of comics. These debates are never looked at with all the actual motives behind each one's reasoning, both lorewise and metawise.
Man, the qualityof this makes me wish see an argument between johnny silerhand and padme amidala or batman trying to convince anakin skywalker not to kill that would be awesome, well done by the way
The world needs both of them.
We need hope
And we need punishment
To be fair to Batman, it's not his fault the Gotham justice system is just a revolving door.
Why does Gotham’s system have no death penalty?
Punisher and Max Payne discuss their dark paths next?
Batman: How many lines are you willing to cross until there’s nothing left of the man you once were, the man that your family loved?
Punisher: Your a little too late to ask me that now, Batman. Frank Castle, the man who came back home to be with his family, the man I once was, he’s already dead. He died with family! And it sure as hell wasn’t crossing any lines that killed him, his wife and 2 children.
Batman : Killing is bad.
Only a SITH! deals in absolutes.
Something I learned in life, I share with anyone who cares...
Your actions don't make you evil, your intent does.
Now I wanna hear a debate between Frank and Joshua Graham. They seem like they'd get along.
They already did it
@@leklass6657He said that before the video was uploaded
Batman: If you kill a killer the amount of killers in the world stays the same.
Punisher : that's why I don't stop at one killer.
Batman: wait didn't you commit a war crimes in comics 😂
@@GreenEagle-p7zPunisher :wait didn't you free joker from the death penalty after he committed multiple Genocides
In the comics?
@@Randomaccount9470 batman: when did I do that and when I killed him the police chased me and tell me how is your main enemy still alive remember jigsaw never dies isn't that what will happen to me too joker will come back again
There was a DC And Marvel crossover event a few years back. Punisher went to gotham. Lets jus say it was the first time iv seen Joker terrified in comics
And I was going to love that comic to bits… Until Batman ruined that by saving Joker. And I was so tempted to rip that comic and throw it flames. That was probably the one thing that made me hate Batman forever.
I wonder what would happen if Bruce Wayne met his father Thomas Wayne from Flashpoint and discuss the 'no killing rule' and justice.
Thomas Wayne's Batman was pretty much Punisher as he killed his enemies and villains.
I would love to see that. Bruce hearing that his Batman kills people and stuff.
Batman wants to be a better man and set a good example, Punisher is a soldier, his method is "take out the target, move on to the next" in the Netflix version he gets off on murdering criminals.
That cause someone changed him in the comics from man out for Justice to psycho who loves war
No he doesn’t “get off on murdering criminals.”
Punisher crushed that argument
Do batman vs judge dredd, a vigilante who against killing Vs the guy who the law recognize and give the power and permission as the judge, jury and executioner.
This was really good, I loved it.
Batman and The Punisher debating about what to do with criminals and which option is more satisfying.
How many people did the Joker, alone, killed because the system would enact justice on him? Someone said Batman is fighting for a better tomorrow. I've seen at least 3 iterations of his tomorrow, and they're never better.
Actually I blame the justice system in Gotham
this is the greatest debate of all time if not one of the greatest.
"Well, my comics sell way better than yours, "- batman
"Damn, you got me there,"- punisher 😂
The only battle where Batman is right😂
I feel like this is a conversation Batman and the punisher would have in a fight scene.
It's a shame that the main comic line Punisher does not follow through with any of these ideals... I love the Punisher stories and he's still one of my favorites, but I'd pick This over the main one any day
they both are great characters
and they both suffer from bad writing
Nice, I like this one. They both make adequate points and it's hard not to understand where Punisher is coming from
No doubt. Both arguments are compelling and have alot of merit
I have NEVER seen Punisher kill someone and think to myself “Did that guy deserve it?” it’s never a question that comes to mind.
Punisher is like a man possessed by an Angel in God him-selves army. I’d rather live and raise my family in a city that Punisher is financed (Batman level of money) to have full reign to protect over Batman.
"I think you're wrong, I think there's no good in the filth that I put down. Look at this city, it stinks. It smells like shit, and I can't get the stink out of my nose. I think that this world, it needs men that are willing to make the hard call." - The Punisher
batman- killing makes us monsters. if we do it, we are no better than the criminals we fight.
punisher- seriously? bro. so i cant kill a homicidal rapist, but you can put a man in the hospital for jaywalking?
Ooohh have Dante and Kratos talk about the enemies they have faced
In certain extreme situations the law is inadequate. In order to shame its inadequacy it is sometimes necessary to pursue natural justice - Frank Castle.
This deserves more views
I'm on the Punisher's side!
I how the punisher sounds the way he does in the ps2 game
Thomas jane is the definitive punisher voice actor.
Like the Daredevil Punisher debate so awesome highlights both sides with equal coverage
The AI Kevin Conroy voice sounds literally just like him so in future projects couldn't they just AI voice him because it just noticeable
We literally have this convo with Daredevil and Frank
This is straight up awesome as hell!❤️🔥
The Joker: Look Bats, I burnt down all the orphanages, gave Robin aids and cancer, and murdered Alfred on international television.
Batman: i WoN't KiLl YoU
The Joker: Look Pun....
The Punisher: *blows the Joker head clean off* who's next?
Batman: You killed my boyfriend!
Now this one is funny as hell
Holy SHIT the AI actually sounds like Kevin Conroy. This is what it should be used for (sort of)
This was so good. Need more talks like these with different characters!
Both Batman and the Punisher have both good points and biases. Batman has a Code Against Killing, probably because his dead parents were philanthropists and doctors, who probably taught him their Hippocratic Oath at an early age. This may explain his sympathy for Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Killer Croc, and Clayface's medical conditions. As Bruce Wayne, he carries on his family's charity work, and went undercover in Tibet as a homeless thief, to learn necessary street smarts, martial arts, and imaginary science, which explains his empathy with the poor and relative mercy to criminals, since he too had to steal to survive poverty. He probably finds gun violence too "triggering" to use himself, nor permit others to do in his presence, due to the PTSD which inspired him to train to become a superhero. It probably causes his empathy for his rogues' gallery's mental illnesses. Batman's rogues' gallery are supervillains, who have higher prison breakout rates than other offenders, because their higher technology or superpowers exceed the typical steel bars, concrete walls and security of jails, prisons and mental hospitals, such as Arkham Asylum. These advantages also make them harder to kill. Firearms would not hurt Clayface or Solomon Grundy, for example. The Joker, a Badass Normal, survives lots of injuries that would kill anyone else. Batman probably couldn't kill him if he tried. The Punisher grew up in a tough neighborhood and was a Vietnam veteran before the Maggia killed his family, so he is accustomed to the fear of crime, vigilantism and fatally shooting his enemies. His resulting PTSD makes him jumpy, paranoid and easily angered, with homicidal ideation. The Punisher's villains are just gangsters, and therefore mortal. They only get out of incarceration by bail, parole, acquittal, or bribery.
Excellent hypothetical conversation. But I did notice when Frank gave his reasons Bruce would move the goal post and reestablish what he believes. Borderline gaslighting. Well done👍🏼💯
Which he actually did in the red hood
Also in the 2nd batman punisher cross over
It's frustrating 😅
The crux of the argument here is who chooses whats right and wrong and why. is evil necessary or does it have to be destroyed, and also how.
This is honestly the best Kevin conroy ai voice I’ve heard on UA-cam
Damn we really did loose the best superhero actor when Conroy passed, RIP Batman
Bro that’s literally Kevin conroys exact voice it’s scary how AI can do that Rest in eternal peace Kevin 🙏🏾🙏🏾💯
I’ll take the punisher as my protector because the joker is the joker he is running rampant out there for the love of it and Batman’s methods however pure refuse to deal with him ensuring the continuity of his spree even villains have a bunker where they go when the joker his having an event
Batman's villains are able to revel in their villainy because they have every confidence that their favorite spec ops furry will get to them before the SWAT Teams!
FRANK : And maybe you will see that some wars can't be won with rules.
Fact Of Life.
Problem with Franks method is that inspires others to take the law into their own hands and believe they to can decided who lives and who does say what you want about Bruce but his no killing rule highlights that everyone even a murderer has people who can possibly care about them. Frank is a good escapist character but in reality his methods really are just a mass murderer who decided to choose a more socially acceptable victim
Your looking at it the wrong way, it's still murder yes, but it's justified against people who can't be redeemed
Frank: My way ensures nobody winds up a vegetable with severe brain damage
Punisher is genuinely right, how many times has joker come back just to kill and hurt more people, look what happened In the injustice series
The batman "no kill" rule is the dumbest thing in comics. He literally drove a tank in crowded streets in the last game.
when there were drone tanks shooting up gotham? yeah. he did.
the tank was non-lethal
I'm more with the Punisher. The way of Batman works with little Criminals. But not with villains like the Joker or Riddler.
There exists a comic with Batman and the Punisher. The Punisher was close to kill the Joker, but Batman stop him and let the Joker run.
This was a point where I think, Batman is not a Hero. If he let the Joker, a murderous psychopath who is more than dangerous, run.
The Punisher even say it, "How many times you put that maniac in? I can end it here, right now."
And yes, here I'm with the Punisher. Some criminals are too dangerous to let them life. And here is the point, where Batman failed and has also blood on his hands.
Blood from all the people the Joker and other villains killed, because Batman don't kill them.
I would love to see Batman debate the doctor on the need to fight/kills and how that defines their morality. Especially the tenth doctor who
And whilst frank made an active choice to ensure proper safety and finality with his actions. His devolvement is more akin to travis bickle in taxi driver. I find a better version of his accepted moral lines and pushing them Dexter actually does his job better and more morally than frank.
I’d side slightly more with Batman but sympathise more with frank due to Dexter doing it better.
I love how you use Kevin Conroy and Thomas Jane's voice. It brings a lot of nostalgia.