TOS Battleships?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Today we delve into strange and exciting world of 23rd Century Battleships. The Levithan, Behemouth Starships that put the Consitution to Shame. Appearing as Early as 'Starfleet Battles' in the 1970s Various classes have been created representing the capital ships of the Original Series Era, From the Mars and Dreadnought Classes, to the More Modern Gemeni and Atlas classes in Star Trek online.
But do these ships make sense for the peroid of the Original Series or are these merely historical Anachronisms?
There are some that believe bigger is always better.
These people built Yamato.
They were wrong.
If the aircraft carrier wasn't invented, the Yamato would have been the best battleship of WW2. However, naval war tactics did not develop necessarily to Japan's advantage.
@@Queue_M4 It had problems even without the carriers. I believe the Yamamoto was in the battle of Samar where it was scared off by American destroyers being so aggressive and using their radar targeting to their advantage while the Japanese were still using colored smoke to figure out where to fire.
@@Queue_M4 That's not necessarily true. American Iowa-class battleships had significant advantages over the Yamato and it likely would have come down to time of day, weather, and other factors to determine which ship would win a 1v1 contest.
Regardless, magnificent ship.
And we all know what happened to the Yamato.
ua-cam.com/video/pyeOHQvLja8/v-deo.htmlsi=Ty0j3ZXJJ5iIn9ap
They had to go for "quality" and bigger battleships meant bigger guns, more armor. They knew they couldn't build up to or outbuild USN and their battleships. Industrial Giant intensifies.
A minor point of order, The Dreadnaught Class WAS NOT a SFB design. It was designed by Franz Joseph (designer of the Constitution class and all ships from TOS) from some technical manual that he made in the early 70's and was an official publication. The designers of SFB (and the SFB License in general), bought their license from Franz Joseph and not Roddenberry/ Paramount
And Paramount was forced to direct license them as part of the resolution of Paramount vs Task Force Games & Amarillo Design Bureau (1986?)
It's also fully canon, not beta canon, as we hear the dreadnought U.S.S. Entente NCC-2120 hail the Epsilon 9 station in TMP.
The SFB Federation Battleship is the Mars class Battleship, which, according to SFB lore, never made it out of the design stage due to the resources required to build it (and the adjustments to the shipyards to be able to construct it).
It was also from Early TOS (1972 from memory) when nacelles were powerplants rather than the modern warp core garbage
I'm a big fan of the SFB heavy dreadnought. It has Lots of phasers, photons and multifunction drone/missile/point defense launchers for ever occasion.❤
It's worth noting that Franz Joseph and Star Fleet Battles both operated under the belief that the warp nacelles themselves generated power, rather than the central warp core we see later, based on some of the in-episode statements and writer's guide. From that standpoint, adding a third nacelle to the Federation class meant it had 50% more power available for weapons, shields and propulsion than the Constitution class had.
It makes sense when you consider where the bussard collectors are….
This exactly. This was before the Warp Core become a thing. Back then the power flowed from the nacelles to the energizer
i always thought the third nacelle was to allow the saucer to escape at warp during evacuations and allow the secondary hull to be used as a last resort guided bomb
In the game the dreadnought and the Mars class Battleship (2 nacelles on top) were to allow the saucer to have warp capability if the main section was to heavily damaged and or the neck section was heavily damaged so the saucer could be used as a lifeboat and still fight.@@thanqualthehighseer
@@thanqualthehighseer That’s an added benefit, at least in the SFB game, where dreadnoughts retain some warp power after saucer separation thanks to that nacelle. That’s be real handy for a frontier battleship.
I know about the Federation class because of the novel Dreadnaught which had a ridiculously overpowered ship called Star Empire. This ship had five phaser banks capable of independent simultaneous targeting. Three full layers of energy screens and shields. Nearly phaser resistant armor. And prototype quantum torpedoes and a very early prototype trans-warp drive. The thing was a literal monster compared to Kirk's Enterprise and was capable of taking on whole squadrons of standard heavy cruisers all by itself. It was designed and built by a rogue admiral who had designs on crushing aggressive and pirate alien cultures and the ship was completely capable of wiping them out.
Either that or the author was just a twelve year old with no sense of the time line, dimensions and proportions.
Awesome book - still one of my favorite TOS novels
@@MetalheadAndNerdwell it was published in 1986 so the timeline at that point ended in Star Trek III. Then IV came out later that year and TNG a year and a half later, so the novel authors had a whole lot of freedom to speculate and world build in ways that were closed off later on. I miss that era, when novels got to do some wild stories.
Atlas Class is my personal favorite. It's also known as the T6 Prototype Dreadnought in STO.
The reason for the positioning of the Federation's third nacelle was actually to provide the saucer warp capability. It was an interesting concept, but apparently found little use at the time as warp-capable subsections would not be tried again until the Prometheus-class more than a century later.
And the Federation-class (as well as the destroyer, scout, and tug) were originally in the TOS Technical Manual before Star Fleet Battles.
[nerd] Well, the Dreadnought is more properly a Franz Josez design then SFB... [/nerd] Anyways, good video. Rather liked it!
I remember playing Klingon Academy and I manage to take out a Dreadnought class with a B'Prey lol. Maneuverability matters! Speaking of which, when are you going to start review ships from Klingon Academy. They have GREAT ships! Yamato class is a beautiful ship which I think is probably the successor to the Proxima class.
Six CDs...
The damn game was on six CDs, lol.
For those that havent played, late 90s and one of the best ever trek games.
@@danielboatright8887 wow didn't know that!
While the story is great a lot of the ships are touch and go although I did like the romulan firehawk.
My personal opinion of the story is that it does a great job of setting up the plot line for Star Trek six. And could have been used as a partial answer to the Klingons renewed strength later.
Spot on brilliant game the six cds were a drag though @@danielboatright8887
For the SNW final episode, the Federation desperately needs a battleship to combat the technologically superior Gorn.
Technologically differing Gorn not necessarily more advanced just weird enough so that normal feddie tech did not work great to start with but now that they are a threat the feds essentially cranked out mods and new stuff to counter it in a few months.
That Klingon battleship makes me have a heady
3:30 No, the Federation-Class is from the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph, copyright 1975/ Starfleet Battles is copyright 1979 and took the Federation-Class from the Technical Manual.
Don't forget, the TOS Connies, according to Canon, had a lot of issues in various areas that led to the Constitution refit. But thanks for making this about the "heavy lifting" battle ships of the TOS.
What kind of issues? Frankly I think the original Connie is for its time better than the refit. Which had to make a number of design comprises
Shields, the initial installation of duo-tronics, and phasers. There's a few posts in YT about them.
Interestingly, the Proxima class must've been deemed successful enough to receive a refit towards the end of the 23rd Century (TMP era). There were at least four such ships refit to those specifications: USS Bismarck, USS Nimitz, USS Philadelphia, and USS Ticonderoga. Of course it almost certainly would've been restricted under the Khitomer Accords, keeping it from potentially stealing Excelsior's thunder as Starfleet's big stick in that era.
I wouldn't put it that way. Remember TMP refits are happening around 2270. Excelsior won't be launched until 85 and won't enter full production until 89/90. So proxima 2 would serve as a stopgap. But Excelsior was better in every way.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Not to mention being overkill for a peacetime fleet. Still, it's kinda entertaining to imagine what a Proxima-style ship using Excelsior parts would've been like. It'd be an utterly impractical monster of a ship, but there's a part of me that can't help but cackle like a madman at the thought.
How about a episode on dedicated carriers from pre TOS to post Dominion war?
You read my mind ;)
You forgot the USS Iron Duke (Star Fleet Museum website). Only saw action during the Organian crisis, where it led the Federation battle fleet. Unable to be upgraded with the then new Linear Warp nacelles, it ended up as a large ship crew training vessel, preparing future crews for the Excelsior class starships that were under construction.
Also the USS Heston (Star Fleet Museum website) prototype heavy battle cruiser. This was the forerunner of the Federation class, being identical in appearance except for the omission of the third saucer mounted warp nacelle. It was found to have poor warp field geometry, which caused it to be slow and lacking in power reserves, due to the warp core installed. The USS Heston ended up as a large starship crew training vessel.
The USS Heston is very easy to simulate in Star Fleet Battles or the PC version, Star Fleet Command. Simply change the movement cost from 2 down to 1.5 and remove the 15 warp energy boxes for the centre saucer nacelle, to create a starship that can barely move, when charging up all of its weapons or reinforce its shields.
I quite like the Atlas, even if it is a bit too chunky.
Great video on a very interesting subject. Though, one though on federation battleships, that although existing in the fleet, I always felt the reason we don't really see much of them during the TOS era, is that the constitution class, although a heavy cruiser, produced in large numbers, effectively does the role of the battleship when it comes to facing up against the heavier units that the Klingons and Romulans could throw at them, short of a full scale war.
@Venom Geek Media, I like the Galaxy-X and the phaser lance :)
The Proxima class ships are quite impressive and would make great command ships for core world fleets which is likely what they were used for. If I were a starship captain, I'd be honoured to be the captain of one of those beasts.
The other battleship types were also impressive in different ways though it's too bad about the Atlas class ships being deeply flawed. They'd work well in a fleet of different ship types supporting each other with them being the big guns that kill the bigger ships of the enemy fleet while being protected by the smaller ships from smaller enemy craft.
Bigger isn't always better but there IS a time and place for bigger ships in combat.....
The FEDERATION class is not an SFB design, SFB used the Franz Joseph designs from the "Star Fleet Technical Manual." The Technical manual is arguably cannon, because the names and NCC numbers of two Federation scouts are used in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture." I.e. "Scout COLUMBIA NCC 621 us to rendezvous with scout REVERE NCC 595..." What is behind the "mesh" in the original series engineering deck, is the impulse engines. There is no "warp core;" the matter-antimatter reactions took place within the engine nacelles.
I would like to know where you got this info on these ships
Based on what you're saying @Venom Geek Media 98, I wonder if the Atlas class was supposed to be something like the T95 or Tortoise superheavy tanks, built for a singular mission(Maybe assaulting and beating down the defenses of a coreworld of the Klingon Empire if the Federation went back to war with the Klingons only thanks to the Organians they never went to war.) but it was so over large that it just wasn't practical for use outside of that very narrow mission. For those who don't know the T95 (USA) or Tortoise(UK) were superheavy tank projects to break through the Siegfried Line and into Germany, which ultimately were not needed and were just too big for any other use.
Ok, regarding the Federation class Dreadnaught...Noooo...it is NOT an SFB ship. The design hails from the Star Fleet Technical Manual, along with most other Federation ships used in SFB. The SFTM predates SFB by about 5 years. That third nacelle, in addition to providing the additional power the larger ship needed, also made sure that the saucer itself, had warp power in the event of an emergency separation. So there is a valid reason for it other than merely looks.
In a defensive war, the gemini and proxima class would likely pair well. the proxima does her thing and the enemy breaks upon her wall of shields and guns, and before they know what to do the gemini's warp in and rush in, causing utter chaos and confusion as they obliterate command ships and just dont stop, allowing the rest of the fleet to regroup and charge. well... minus the proxima. she'll help out when she gets there guys, dont worry!
Ok, the excelsior class is a battle cruiser in canon meant to replace the constitutuon class
1. Reason: the klingon empire was a very real and a very heavy ship would mean alot of resources were needed to counter one.
2. Rarity: the Enterprise ran 350 people on it and a battleship ups that by three classes (battle cruiser, dreadnought, and battleship) so minimum triple the crew. The next is fuel and production cost, these behemoths ate dilithium like cheap candy and were a pain to produce and retrofit when new tech became available, this made one in production currently in need of a full refit on completion to be combat effective.
Fighting stance: a battleship is power projection in star trek, not a fighting platform. It COULD go to war but if she sank it would devastate morale, so it was a propoganda piece to keep overly aggresive species afraid of the federations strike capability. This beast could fight large ships but frigates could run rings around a battleship and a large ship cant turn worth a damn so as a frigate you got in a battleships weakest firing arcs, did some damage and gtfo before you lost warp capability. Your superior acceleration into warp gave you hit and run potential. So a Battleship NEEDS a fleet to function or its scrap by a thousand needles.
these battleships were for the most part defensive short range craft then Starfleet decided that they wanted a standard battleship a type with long range capabilities.
You know, given how *wide* the secondary hull of the Atlas is, I wouldn't be surprised if it had dual warp cores (Or one giant warp core) as well, just side by side instead of being in separate hulls like the Proxima.
I’ve still got the plastic Federation ships that Franz Joseph sold for their dreadful games. I saw them advertised in the back of Dragon Magazine before I even knew there were games for Star Trek. That would have been around 1979-80. Though I didn’t buy the glow-in-the-dark versions. I got into SFB almost immediately upon seeing it and that cemented it my mind. So for me the tri-engined Dreadnought is THE Federation’s BB.
In defense of tri-nacelle designs in TOS-era, rather than an attempt (was made) at variable warp field geometry, it could simply have been an ad-hoc way to give a much more massive ship competitive warp speeds to smaller vessels. I imagine the things were hideously inefficient overall, but the ships themselves would have brought multiple times the firepower of a Connie at the same speed, but were a logistics nightmare, hence why you never see them on the frontier with its sketchy supply chain.
It's actually to provide warp capability to the saucer when separated.
Cool video.
Proxima class was a BEAST she had 6 torpedo tubes two fore two aft one port and starboard multiple phaser banks and 8 heavy pulse phaser canons 4 port and 4 starboard. The only reason to have dual engineering systems is to have dual warp cores for extra power that means if you knock out the shield the shield systems from the other section snap on allowing the other primary shield to recharge the damn thing was USS Arizona levels of durability (look her up)
I like the appearance of the Atlas. Though I understand what you're saying.
HAHHAhAH NOT THE FOLEY DESIGN. TriAngulum Audio Studios got a little spicey with me when i confused the foley class with the dreadnaught lol.
I always pictured the Atlas as the big slow bruiser type, a brick than can hit hard from any angle and eat return fire. It's also the most visually appealing to me. How did you come by the idea that it was a planetary invasion ship?
battleships, dreadnoughts, and ships comparable to aircraft carriers, were not shown I nOS, but were not contradicted either. apt. Kirk has a line that there are only 12 like the enterprise / Constitution class in the fleet, yet that would later be surpassed in the series, and there were 12 or more names given in the stickers (decals) for the AMT model kits sold in the 1970's and up until now. I don't recall if there were more than 12 decal names, as it's been too long since I did a model kit. -- It was implied that there were other classes of starships, and earlier, older ships like the Horizon and a few others. e also got various civilian ships, scouts, freighters, and others mentioned but almost never actually shown, such as the one for the crew who rescued Charlie and brought him to the Enterprise.
The Federation class dreadnought is from the Starfleet Technical Manual by Franz Josef Designs, and pre-dates Starfleet Battles. The tech manual was published (and licensed) in the early 1970's, around 1972 or 1974, and was republished at least in the 1980's or 1990's, and is still available today. Highly recommended.
I see the Atlas veing like a seige breaker. It punches through a blockade to drop supplies and reinforcements, and has the durability to survive that attempt, while other elements of a formantion engage hostile elements to distract or try to break through themselves.
3:29 the Federation was a outgrowth of the Heston class heavy cruiser
What is the best/baldest federation battleship of TOS era?
I see the Federation Class as a fast battlecruiser. It has more speed, range, and firepower than a Constitution, but it won't hold out in a fight as long as a Gemini or Atlas. Admiral Jellicoe would think there's something wrong with it.....
5:09 why does that constitution class have an ISS designation?
Shhh they haven't realised it yet ;)
You mentioned SFB why didn't mention the Mars Class battleship?
Gemini class looks badass imo
You can play at theorizing but if you read the books written about the show and listen to the show the Constitutions are Heavy Star Cruisers. And that as big and advanced as they are, as Kirk said, "There are only 12 in the fleet.."
The ethos of he show is that they are ships designed for exploration but capable of ships of the line warfare. Whenever battle is expected they are the ones to answer. And in The Ultimate Computer the Constitutions are sent for war games. Why 4 Constitutions in a battle fleet, not battleships?
Because Starfleet sent their best, and they don't use the term Battleship because it conveys war is their business.
I often have thought Starfleet didn't have what they'd call destroyers for that reason. I wondered if such a ship had ever been referred in the shoow whether they'd call them something like 'defenders' or 'patrol' vessels.
Re 4.05 Was someone inspired by the Liberator from Blake's 7?
I disagree that a TOS battleship has to be smaller than an Excelsior class. Given the known power/size creep in Starfleet ships and that the Excelsior became the replacement for the Connie, well it could be argued that the Excelsior replaced both the Connies AND any or all heavier ships then the Excelsior could be a hybrid between a "Cruiser" and a "Battleship", a "Battlecruiser" if you will. Regardless if at least some Klingons consider the Connie a Battlecruiser.
So a TOS Battleship could rival or even exceed an Excelsior in size. I only say this is at least in STO, the Atlas is BIG, even bigger than the Excelsior. Now I know STO isn't great on scaling but then again, neither are Star Trek shows. If DS9 is to be believed, then when the Defiant is shown docking/departing the station it's nearly the size of a Nebula. And compare that to when the Defiant is flitting about the Neg'Vhar then you'd think the NV was very nearly the size of DS9.
On the different topic of the Excelsior, there is no agreement (among the fans anyway) on the success of the Excelsior class. If the Transwarp didn't work, why did Scotty sabotage the drive? If it did work, why didn't we ever hear about it in the next generation? Every game (and series) had its own rationalization about what happened. I think it worked but the term "transwarp" just was renamed warp and that that was why the warp scale was changed between TOS and NG. But there is no real evidence of that. In FASA, I think their story is that Transwarp failed, they re engined the class, and it was still an enormously effective powerful class (hence they are still around in the NG).
Just like anything size has diminishing returns until it becomes just unmanageable for one reason or another tanks and battleships from say WW2 are great examples.
What about the NX era Yorktown class?
THUNDERSTRUCK by AC/DC starts to play😎
Its not always better, but sometimes it is. Battleships should be used mainly for defense of stations, and planets.
ive always liked the atlas class better than the proxima class , but seeing them being roughly the same type of mission profile being bigger auxiliary craft carriers with specialist warp and impulse to deal with the mass of there larger carrying capacity , i see them less like the dread , more like a carrier class for the TOS era where the Atlas was just " make the secondary hull bigger to hold more craft , where the proxima was built thinking just take 2 dread secondary hulls to carry more craft . etc two seperate prototypes with different design routes for the same roles
Not to sound difficult but is "weight" an issue in space?
thing is the Federation Class with that Third Nacelle on the Saucer has well known advantage in the event of seperation emergancies the Federation Class Saucer is Warp capable
I would LOVE a look at the Yamato-class. Its my favorite ship from Starfleet Command.
Good information!!
There were blueprints back in the day there was a 5 nacelle warp ships
is the gemini class a hit and run battleship?
yeah pretty much
3:24 where does Foley (sp?) class come from? I've always seen this listed as the Federation class
The Foley class is a ship designed by Capt Foley of Trekyards. It's different but so many people see a dreadnought and say it's a Foley class. Similar to how the Pakleds see any federation starship and say "its another enterprise.'
Its foleys idea to fix the federation class issues
Lol, "the atlas class needs a fleet"....bro the Atlas class IS a fleet!
True enough lol.
It is not true that a battleship must be larger than a cruiser. A cruiser requires long cruising range and benefits from increased cruising speed. Both of these things require a great deal of mass and volume. A battleship also does not need the scientific instrumentation and lab space that the Federation likes on its cruisere. Whether this is more than the mass and volume of battleship armor/shields and weapons depends on the details of the technobabble.
A Federation battleship could be smaller than an exploratory cruiser like the Constitution class.
I would submit that TOS battleships may be nearly identical to cruisers externally with the lab space, fuel bunkerage, and consumables stores traded for auxiary shield generators and a distributed power system. The Miranda with its compact form and better phaser layout at the expense of unconventional warp geometry is a particularly good candidate for having a battleship version.
I love my sto Atlas. It is my flagship.
I really like the Federal class and if the refit wasn't a total failure, but a disappointment. That might have been another reason for the development of the Excelsior class
we're seeing 1 engine designs in SNW. If 1, 2, and 4 work with no special explanations, 3 should, too.
3 absolutely can. But to work best all 3 engines have to be equidistant and have line of sight.
@@venomgeekmedia9886
The defiant and b'rel disprove the line of sight requirement.
Edit: As does Voyager, for that matter.
Doing some digging at Memory Alpha... The TNG era has two 3-engine designs - one of which is from an alternate timeline, being the 1701-D BB refit in AGT, the other being a cruiserish 3-Engine, the Niagra Class USS Princeton (TNG:BOBW) was shown, and it's got three engines, with line of sight, but it's not even close to equilateral.
Also worth noting that the Federation class isn't shown, but the tech manual page for it was on the background displays in one of the movies.
Hrm, well, speaking of beta 'dreadnoughts' to mention, do you remember the old FASA/adjacent 'Ascension class?' It's similar to the TOS movie refit version of the Federation class but a different nacelle arrangement you might like better.
Battleships are bomb, torpedo, or mine magnets. Battlecruisers were no better, all the firepower of a Battleship and no ability to take a hit. Hood, Repulse, Kirishima are all proof that you don't take a battlecruiser into a battleship fight. In the days of sail there was the *Frigate* , a fast warship that could choose to run or fight if needed. You've heard of one, the *USS Constitution* . The re-designation of *Enterprise* to a *Starship* is more like a frigate in the days of sail.
Skipped the Tritium class...
The Franz Joseph / SFB was probably the best and worst at the same time, in SFB it was the "first of its kind" and as such was leapfrogged by C8/C9 but after the DN+(w) was a solid core of battle fleet or Squadron where before they were Heavy Command Cruisers. It would be like the WW2 Iowa vs the Regan era Iowa
Same ship a lot more punch.
SFB Timeline is far more coherent than the other Treks.. that it looks a lot like WW2 helps.
Didn't know that one... that's quite nice actually.
I’ll say this, the atlas class is the coolest looking out of all of them.
The Federation Flag Ship was a Constitution Class ship. You ALWAYS make your Flag Ship the biggest / Best ship on the line. Everything in this video is what? books? Online games? FASA? Even in the 1990s movies - the only most powerful starship was the 'Heavy Cruiser' Enterprise class ship. The Excelsior was still being an experiment to becoming the new Flag Ship at that time. I know there are ... so called ... Dreadnaught Class ships with 3 engines, but they sucked at anything 'cannon' in this universe. 4 engine ships can only use 2 at a time due to the warp field . Maybe they are better at endurance because 2 are resting while 2 are running, but anything more than 2 warp engines are essentially an APU. (Don't know what am APU is? Google it)
Loved the Proxima-class in Legacy and how it had broadside phaser canons for smashing the shields of enemy ships.
Yeah, that game as a whole was pricelessly awesome. And Agreed 💯, I always made sure to save the Proxima in that one mission so I could add it to my fleet. 🖖🤘
Gemini reminds me HMS Nelson. She's slow, she consumes ocean of fuel, but by god she will put the HURT on you if you get too close. Nelson shattered every window she had firing a full broadside. Would Gemeni do the same? Awesome as always yo!
fancy seeing you here!
Other battleships like proxima and atlas would have more firepower. But gemini is very forward focused. Designed to charge down enemies at warp and make them flinch.
Yes, I do occasionally pop around here and there @@davidreeves4556
Nelson was one of those battleships that made the enemy question their life choices.
"Good. She's giving pursuit. That means she can't fire everything at us."
"Why is she angling her armor like that?"
"1...2....3.....ARE THOSE ALL HER GUNS MOUNTED FORWARD?!?!"
@venomgeekmedia9886 Having the Gemini as the _Tip of the Spear_ in a formation makes a lot of sense, as well as its apparent niche of as a heavy raider for counter offences and _kick in the face and run._
With other ships in a battlegroup it can have its vulnerable rear quarter covered, and it's job is to reach out and hit the enemy fleet first (with its phaser "lances") as they close into range before the main bodies of both fleets can hit each other. Then it just pours fire into the enemy, focusing on eliminating the enemies heavy hitters asap in order to reduce returning fire at the fleet.
As well, being in a battlegroup solves it's logistics issues as there will be dedicated support for such a force.
I unironically love the Federation Class Dreadnought. Best TOS era design.
I’ve actually enjoyed the design for years now too.
@@bigboy4006fellow Federation class enjoyer
@@keyboardt8276 I first saw it in one of my Star Trek manuals. Thought it looked cool when I first saw it.
Defiant.
Same. The Federation Class kicks ass.
This gives something to a lore of perhaps Starfleet design and shipyards were still trying to figure out how to build large battleships. Kept tweaking the design in different directions.
Yeah although it's hard to say any won. Excelsior blindsided them all
Well, if we accept that Starfleet seriously avoided designations that imply a "battlefleet", then if they started trying to create a capital ship... gotta work out what a "capital ship" design is like compared to cruiser and below designs. And then Excelsior. You could argue that Excelsior is the winning battleship design, except she became the standard cruiser design. :D
Now I kinda wonder about the Niagara. If we adjust the two phaser arrays at the saucer rear so they aren't directly under a nacelle, we'd get a ship slightly smaller than an Ambassador in length but with more firepower. Possibly better speed.
I agree about the size and rarity.
A real world heavy cruiser was typically a third to a quarter the weight and about 75% the length of of a battleship.
As for the numbers of cruisers in the pre WWII navies the ratio of cruisers to battleships was 5-1 average.
Federation class is technically a Franz Joseph design. Which is part of the early Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual. It's probably no longer canon, but it's close to being.
yah, they do mention one of the ships in comms chatter in TMP but thats about it. my feelings are that it may have been alpha canon but was a failed class, as the excelsior class was going for longer in development and 'paid off' more, along with more powerful and compact warp tech made its bulk obsolete, like an Edsel.
@@DaiAtlus79 I was thinking more along the lines that the old guides from the 70s and 80s, despite their value, were rendered obsolete by later developments in the franchise. Still, they are worth having.
@@1nONLY_DRock thats how beta Canon goes - its there til the main crowd involved with the IP change things. FASA had the issue of things that were not nearly in line with main Trek - photon torpedoes being recent developments, the whole getting klingon and romulan roles reversed, etc. the worst thing i think FASA did was the Doppelganger drive, moreso because its overcomplicating things instead of a simpler solution, dual coils inside a single nacelle with altered warp field geometry (the reasoning he used for the dreadnought's bubble looked inefficient on power etc vs its size and envelope, with its wasted space).
Atlas > Proxima.
Gemini > three other
Good luck resupplying that bloody thing and finding it a niche.
Bold words. {ensign…. raise shields}
@@nsr-ints Gemini or Atlas?
@@barrybend7189 Atlas
Something to consider….. combat starships need NOT be bigger than the hero ships of whatever era we are speaking of….
In TNG season 1 episode 19 i believe Tasha Yar mentions that “stripped of its bulk” the stardrive section of the Galaxy Class becomes an exceptional battleship …. Take a look at the crew accommodations of a Conventional NATO naval vessel ….. getting rid of the scientific equipment, and reducing crew quarters down to something you would see on a NATO naval vessel and your “battleships” are suddenly smaller and more nimble than your exploratory heavy cruisers
Federation class also has a warp capable saucer section in the event of separation. So there's that.
As others have pointed out, the Federation class is a Franz Joseph design, not Star Fleet Battles (and is technically screen canon thanks to both background dialog mentions and artwork showing up in TMP). SFB licensed all the FJ designs, so it is a standard ship in-game.
In most fan canons where dreadnoughts exist, they are a separate type from proper battleships. Dreadnoughts are as fast or faster than the less powerful heavy cruisers, while being smaller and less powerful than the true behemoths that battleships represent. In SFB, while dreadnoughts are relatively common, battleships are extremely rare, with only the Klingons actually building a few (at ruinous cost and minimal strategic effectiveness). There is a Fed battleship in the game rules, the Mars class, but it's a conjectural design that was too expensive to actually build and operate in the SFB timeline.
3:28 The 3 engine dreadnought was not designed by TFG for Star Fleet Battles (1979). It was designed for the Star Fleet Technical Manual that came out in 1975. It also appeared first in a game in 1977's Star Fleet Battle Manual.
As with much else online, people don't read the original books on the making of the series or they confuse source material, refer to later designs as TOS. I just left comment that it's clear by the shows creators and in the show itself that the Connie's are the big boys and called Heavy Star Cruisers because exploration is their business, warships in necessity. For Starfleets ethos 'battleship' is belligerent.
1977's SFBM is the retitle and expansion of Zocchi's 1972 Star Trek Battle Manual. In 1974, Zocchi got a license from FJD, and then suggested to SVC to contact FJD. (reference SFB designer's notes, the lawsuit notes in Nexus 18, and the entries on Boardgame Geek.)
Yamato class is an old fav! great vid :), its definitely a beast of a ship. You can play one in the old, "Star Trek Empires at War" video games.
It's not the size of the Starship it's how you use it!
Or at least that's what I keep telling myself
I love the Atlas Class. Based on playing it in STO, I see it as the center of the fleet. HMS Victory or HMS Iron Duke. Constitutions would screen and get rid of everything but the very biggest enemy ships and then the Atlas would come in and lay waste to the enemy capital ships. The night after an Atlas class engages the Klingons, the halls of Sto-Vo-Kor will be overflowing with new warriors.
I mean the question is there anything that the Connie realistically can't handle.
Excellent point
@venomgeekmedia9886 since we're using STO as the source, but the Klingons and Romulans have battleships that are equivalent.
@@Paleorunner2 so the thrai isn't really a battleship. More a long range strike cruiser. As for the D9 (which should probaby be called B9 since its a battleship and FASA already has a B9) it sufferers from the problems ant klingon battleship faces which I will cover in a video.
Going by the description in this video, its fatal flaw is that it is it doesn't make sense to combine an assault ship and a battleship as part of a fleet. An assault ship should be avoiding space battles, being protected by the battleships. Meanwhile, a battleship should be getting into it and blasting the enemy and taking hits else you are wasting a ton of firepower.
If you have fleets, you are better off having a dedicated battleship and a dedicated assault ship to put in those fleets. The only way a combined battleship / assault ship makes sense is if it operates alone (or with only small ships in support).
It's basically the same issue as the ideas about a battle-carrier in real life.
0:12 The B-10 from StarFleet Battles! Man, that was an awesome game. The rulebooks were not for the faint of heart though......
Now where's the Gorn Godzilla!?
@@ZlothZloth Hanging out with his cousin Apollo?
SFB is still available; Federation Commander is a reduced math version, and with an option for SSD's with around half the boxes...
Still have mine from the 80's. I never won
Always love the style of the TOS ships, like it better that the battle ships were far and few.
Federation Class forever!!!!!
I ❤ the design of the Gemini. Hope in shows up somewhere again Star Trek.
As a kid, watching TOS in syndication, every Starfleet fighting ship we saw was a Constitution. My impression was that the Connie was a rather standard exploratory ship, and the idea of there being bigger and meaner ships in Starfleet seemed natural. Of course, there are episodes countering this impression, the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" establishes the number of (current) Connies at 12. The "Star Trek the Motion Picture" novelization has the Enterprise (at least the movie refit version) as being "at least a battleship". I always took that novelization seriously as it supposedly was written by Roddenberry himself, but the statement was a bit mind blowing to me at the time I read it.
However, one must consider that the original Constitution design was over 20 years old in TOS based on the idea of the semi-official launch date of 2245, and the Enterprise appearing in "The Cage" and clearly being in operation for some time by then. And, of course, from not being the prototype ship of the class. That Starfleet would be working on bigger and meaner battleships would make sense by the time of TOS; the Constitutions just being very successful, highly advanced in their day, and kept updated, larger designs just not really able to render them obsolete, but there being a parade of classes of small production runs or single ship prototypes that attempted to.
Anyway, the idea that 'of course an exploratory vessel has to be able to defend itself and handle multiple situations' carries a lot of weight with me, and explains why a long distance exploration ship might also double as a de-facto battleship.
Remember also 'Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise' mentions Dreadnaught class ones. And if one gets very picky, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture we see a schematic on a display showing a Dreadnaught deck plan (from Starfleet Battles).
Admittedly, whether Mister Scott's guide is canon is somewhat debatable, and background displays aren't always considered that - but there are references.
The game 'Klingon Academy' involves the deployment of heavy Battleships, them being restricted to core territories and only activated in time of war. Whether this is considered canon is again up in the air but that is a plot point - and a large tactical one as the cadets have to figure out how to engage them and discussions are rampant about them and their deployment.
The Atlas seems to live up to the old saying, “Jack of all trades, master of none.”
f there was something bigger than a Connie closer to the core worlds, then where was it when all those giant alien threats came visiting Earth?
Undergoing maintenance;)
This bigger = slower stuff really rubs me the wrong way. Now I don't know the inner workings of your average Federation warship, but warships in real life tend to increase in speed if you give them larger engines. For example, the Battleship Alabama, which displaces 45,000 tons has a maximum speed of 28 knots. Meanwhile the Battleship New Jersey, which displaces 60,000 tons, has a maximum speed of 33 knots. This is due almost entirely to the difference in engine size and hull length. Obviously hydrodynamics wouldn't be a factor, but engine power certainly would.
What are your thoughts on the Ranger Class Battlecruiser? I personally could see it as this mid-range planetary defense vessel meant to defend Federation planets/territory along the boarders. Perhaps not the most successful in its original role but its lineage and tactical role inspiring a split in doctrine with the Miranda rollbar for lighter ships and even the Matsumoto/Kusanagi class vessels
medium cruiser, i would say. tactical and shorter missions vs the connies which are heavy cruisers and can do 5 yr missions.
If it wasn't so limited in its capabilities one could've made an argument for the Gemini as more of a battlecruiser- Just a shame that it has a turning radius of a solar system. Same goes for the Federation, if it wasn't so janky
I rather like the Federation class. After all, it obviously entered production if Entente 2120 was in service by TMP (whenever that movie is set). And the Star League 2101 was in service according to beta canon at least until Wolf 359.
The Proxima class has been a favourite of mine, TOS and TMP era versions, since I first played Star Trek Legacy, beautiful ship and I loved the broadside cannons she had in that game!
Brother those guys would opening a severe case of whoop-ass on any enemy-starships
question for you vemon, in strange new worlds at the end of season one we get a glimse of an aulternate blance of terror were the romulan empire invades a tos era fedration. the show kind of hand waves it away but how do you see such a war being fought and how devasating is it really?
I think Visually the STO designs, the Atlas and the Gemini are the best and I could see the Atlas as a big bruiser and the Gemini filling that "fast battleship" roll that appeared for a short while.
You got the origin wrong for the Federation class, but that's been litigated already. You also misunderstood what the nacelles were FOR in SFB and Federation Commander, but that's been mentioned too. You should think in terms of the Saladin class, the Constitution class, and the Federation class. The Constitution class with it's 2 nacelles (generating power because that is how SFB worked) has a good set of weapons, good torpedoes and more than enough power to make use of them. It's a good, balanced design. The Saladin class has the same weapons, and half the power. Good for a single strike but it can't sustain it (it has to recharge so to speak). The Federation class has 150% of the power the Connie has and that allows it to hit incredibly hard and absorb a ton of damage. It really is a monster in the SFB world. As SFB understands the systems (from the Star Fleet Battle Manual) all three are great ships and the Federation class is truly a great battleship, maybe the best in the game (if not the toughest). It's equivalent to the C8 Klingon Dreadnought with its third nacelle but I prefered the Fed class. I believe the Federation class was shown briefly on the bridge displays of the original cast movies. And I believe it was shown in "Of Gods and Men", the youTube Star Trek movie (which wasn't canon obviously but included a lot of actual Star Trek actors and good special effects).
Now maybe later games have had differing ideas on how power systems worked (and later series and movies) but you have to judge these ships by the era they were in. The Excelsior ships weren't licensed for the SFB game but were kind of the equivalent of the Federation class, but in the movie era. FASA was licensed for the Excelsior but not the Federation class.
Those were the last games which tried to SIMULATE starship battles on a mapboard. Star Trek Attack Wing was a fun game but it was more fast and loose and much more abstracted. The Federation class isn't represented and the Excelsior is such an old ship it's not competitive anymore. The battleship of the NG is probably the Sovereign class (or Prometheus class with it's 5 nacelles -- we can guess that they don't think they generate the power and they are not all used except when it's in pieces). And the Galaxy X which IS in Star Trek Attack Wing as a technically non Federation ship (with 3 nacelles, I think as a nod to the Federation class). Frankly that ship makes no sense unless you DO get more power with the third nacelle. I suppose you might get more speed but it's tough to say.
Although it's never stated explicitly that the Connies are the most powerful ships in TOS, dialogue in the Menagerie suggests that they are a huge leap forward in technology and capability, and dialogue in ... I think Assignment Earth, bluntly says there's only 12 of them. Suggesting that either the design is very niche and specialised, or that it's powerful enough that Star Fleet never expects to need more than one or two for any given problem, which in turn implies they're very powerful.
Also, I need to object to the comparision to the USN Constitution-class frigates from the age of sail. Those frigates were very powerful and larger than pretty much everyone else's frigates, yes, but they were also comparatively short-ranged and high-maintenance. The dedicated much more of their internal volume to weapons and ammunition than any RN Fifth- or Sixth-Rate frigate. Really, the USN Constitutions are more like German WW2 "pocket battleships" that cram a lot of combat power into a small hull because it's never going to be that far from port, and are pretty much the polar opposite of a Trek Connie, which is intended for extended independent operation.
I don't know man , I think my taste in Starships is starting to mirror my tasted automobiles .
I really am getting into 70s and 80s muscle cars and utility trucks and that's how the old constitution-class strikes me , as a good old sturdy Reliable Chevy work truck from the 60s .
The stuff they put out now looks all the same , no creativity no luxury nothing ostentatious , it's all very plastic and swoopy or as Marv from Sin City says "modern cars all look like electric razers" !