Why Are Science Ships So Strange?
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2024
- For Centuries Science ships have made up a vital cog in the machine of starfleet. Yet despite Starfleets insistence that they are a organisation devoted to Scientific Discovery, their Science Ships are often overshadowed and outdone by the more famous 'Explorer' type Starships.
Is this because Starfleet is dishonest about its scientific intentions, Or a Symptom of poorly allocated investment and technology?
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"They built too many Oberths to keep track of." That made me chuckle! I just love the idea that Starfleet has no real idea how many Oberths there are and that they just kinda bumble around space until they find something neat to look at.
"Do we have an oberth in that sector?"
"Admiral, we have no clue. We could have anywhere from zero to five hundred in a single solar system."
The Oberth was so strangely formed that when I saw the Pegasus on the old TV half-embedded in the rock face, I couldn't figure out what shape it was supposed to be.
It appeared in a TOS movie before TNG.
Yeah I was the same. It was my first encounter with the class.
I thought whatever had put it in the asteroid had twisted it somehow....Nope, it actually just looked like that...
@@Chokah There were some peculiar camera angles.
dr t'ana was stuck on one for a while
So Star Fleet finally In-Vesta'd in a half decent design... I'll see myself out
I am not convinced that the Oberth is quite as dangerous as people say. It is my belief that it was simply the sheer quantity of Oberth ships in service that led to us seeing them in danger more often.
Plus in TNG the times they were in trouble was against things that almost took out the Enterprise.
ST iii: oberth puts shields up, instantly dies from first hit.
I'm going with that because Riker's script in the Pegasus episode never has him complain about the Pegasus itself. Picard had his explain about the Stargazer as an underpowered, overworked and old vessel in service. Even as an Ensign, Riker would have mentioned the "glass house" fragility of the Oberth. Space canoe and all.
@@russellmzwell you ask a truck to survive hit from tank.
Yeah, but it's a science ship, not a warship. You put an real oceangoing ship in the line of fire of a warship and it is going to be sunk real quick@@russellmz
Oberth class is the best class.
If you absolutely have to you can crew it with a single person.
The sensor array is on the back so you're always ready to run away.
And in my head cannon, the turbo lifts don't go between the saucer and engineering sections. They just have playground slides with reversible gravity, depending on if you're going up or down. With ball pits in the landing zones.
It's my Oberth I can modify it how I want to, and nobody can stop me, or cares enough to try.
On an Oberth regulations are more like suggestions, and what happens on Oberth stays on Oberth.
Oberth itself is fine. It has just ugly as F gondola, what not many people realize is optional. But that was general problem of post-TMP design, with even uglier Curry class as example.
Well, realistically, such trends only progress further.
I mean, in Voyager we saw Starfleets latest toy having the theoretical capacity of being crewed by holograms exclusively, due to holoprojectors being everywhere. And we saw 2 (just two!) holoprograms operating it briefly.
If that works on a warship, I'm sure it could work even more on a science vessel.
HA! Love the slide concept.
Thought the Oberth made sense because it could swap pods for different mission profiles.
@@Amoschp524 I figure they are super modular even just using the canoe.
You might send one out back to the gills full of crew, and generalist supplies, to do a survey of a prospective colony world. Where most of the crew spends most of their time on the planet just to have elbow room.
Or you could have another one set up just to count fish. Crewed by a husband and wife ichthyologists. With a long-term mission to index all the fish stocks in their patrol range, who never leave their ship unless it's to visit the beach, or go for a swim.
Or anything else really.
Star Trek isn't supposed to be grimdark. Lots of ships and crews are supposed to make it to retirement without any major danger. Just doing dirty work that needs to get done.
At least that's how I like to imagine it.
Nova is an awesome ship. Small ship not alot of crew needed. Can scout, science, and defend itself. Star fleet would desperately need these smaller, more adaptable ship classes after gaining the crazy amount of territory after the Dominion War.
the nova class was built as a tactical science ship, while it does have the science ship elements it was built as a part of Starfleet's line of anti-borg ships
I love the Nova class, it doesn't look bizarre at all
The Nova actually is a tough little ship that performed way beyond its actual mission scope. It's just that the Equinox in particular had tons of bad luck.
The rhode island variant with the filled in bow is peak imo
I see the Vesta and Odyssey operating in terms of a fleet group for deep range exploring. Odyssey is the command nucleus while Vestas can move around to areas that the Odyssey would be ill suitable.
that's the logic I have for the intrepid and Nova classes but a smaller scale version of that
the Odyssey class was a ship of the line a tactical explorer dreadnaught not a dedicated science ship. it was the class built specifically to replace the aging sovereign class as the ship class of the line that was expected to explore the unknown but primaraly built for first contact like the sovereign and galaxy classes were and the Vesta class was built specifically as a second configuration of the Odyssey subfamily of star ship
I'm still on the belief that the Oberth class was originally a civilian design. A small starship that was able to do small to light transport roles, hospital duty, coast guard (system guard?) search and rescue, and also due to its similarities to federation starship designs was also a popular private vessel either as a yacht or private starship for someone to travel around in with a family or friends, and also private ventures such as space tours, liner, or science and research that was not part of Starfleet. They likely performed very well and its likely hundreds if not thousands of private, and civillian Oberths were running around Federation space.
Meanwhile Starfleet is trying to bulk up its military especially after the near disaster that was V'ger, and with the possibility of a future conflict with the Klingons, they likely were modernizing starships left and right but they still needed a light performing ship to do mundane but necessary duties. Someone likely pointed out that the civillian Oberth class could be a cheap candidate that could fill a variety of roles given its success in the civillian market. So Starfleet likely bought or acquired the licence to build military versions of the Oberth, these vessels were filled with the best or off the shelf tech and could fill in the roles starfleet needed. Hospital, transport, tug, and of course the science vessels, and occasionally a gunboat on the belief they could fill these roles like a mini miranda.
Turned out it made a decent hospital ship, transport, and science ship, and experimentation but its origins as a civillian vessel showed it was virtually useless in any combat situation. These things explode the moment a military grade phaser or disruptor so much as targets them.
But being cheap made it fast to build and faster to shut up the research and medical divisions, and made it possible to free up resources that could be used on fleet modernization and newer better warships.
So you still have the disposable Oberth. That Starfleet made to many of.
Hey but at least it was cheap :P
My headcannon after I saw Star Trek 3, before I heard the actual canon, was that The Oberth class was a refit of an older design. My logic was because of how low the Grissom's registry number was. In my head, that would have put it at the generation of ships between the Dadelous class and Constitution class.
So you have the early federation ships that were holdovers from the Romulan War and those built shortly after. This generation would start at the Freedom Class, includes the NX-Class, and ends with the Daedalus Class. The original Oberth would have been the start of the second generation and this generation ends before the Crossfield Class. The Crossfield Class heralds in the third Generation, which includes the Connie, and ends at the Excelsior Class. The fourth Generation starts at the Ambassador Class, includes the Galaxy Class and ends at the Intrepid Class. The fifth Generation starts with the Sovereign Class.
Perhaps although what would make all the gunboat variants? I think later on they would primarily be civilian in use.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 True. Maybe it really is only a starfleet design. Just to me it always seemed liked that one odd ball that didn't make much sense to me design wise hence why I always seen it as a civilian model that got choosen. Looking at it from the Gunboat variant it does make a little more sense.
I've seen at least one similar looking ship before. In the webpage called the starfleet museum. They have a design listed as the Capella class. Looks similar but I think its labeled as a utility cruiser never meant to see combat.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 There is IRL precedent for designing ships for both civilian and military at the same time. The USSR designed a landing ship intended to be also built as a cargo ship. It was known as Project 1173 (NATO: Tapir-class). It didn't succeed mostly due to a tug of war between speed and efficiency. There was also the Littoral Combat Ship that also had modules designed for her, but they never built enough modules to take advantage of it.
Starfleet doesn't really have those sort of problems, so I could see them making a hull modular for both fleet and civilian use and then designing the missions pods afterwards and actually succeeding at it.
Well you don't put cruisers on border duty. The Oberth is more of a frigate. Frigates are large enough to make into a specialized platform but small enough that you can make alot of them and alter the mission parameter of the vessel. It just turns out that... They ordered alot of science Science Oberths for some reason. And why not? At their size they can churn out alot for the same amount of resources it takes to build the skeleton of a Connie.
Though I suspect the size of the ship was intended to be larger because the turbo lifts in the pylons always made me wonder if the lifts were single person only.
The logical way to build a specialized science ship is small and modular. Sort of like what is done for SCE troubleshooters.
A dedicated ship's crew, mission-specific sensors, labs, and science teams.
Need to research a stellar phenomena? Want to observe a pre-warp culture? swap out the facilities, and you're good to go.
Soo, the Oberth?
thats exactly right the Odyssey and Vesta classes were not built as dedicated science ships but tactical explorers built specifically to replace the aging Sovereign and galaxy class ship's roles in the fleet as first contact focused ships and long range explorers
Nova is only slightly larger than Oberth, with the same crew complement. Compared to the Constitution/Intrepid, they are packed in. Basically half the space per person of a Intrepid
True but I think voyager was heavily undermanned. 500-600 would make more sense
The bigger the ship, the more it is undermanned it seems.
IRL analysis of the usable space of a galaxy class shows that the Enterprise D, for example, would've been practically empty with its 1000 crew (some of them with families on board) and the usual smattering of civilian passengers.
The Oberth, all quail in fear of the mighty war-canoe and it's single Phaser Bank.
@@manny022, what you're saying is an Oberth could take on an Imperial class Star Destroyer.
@@manny022 " Mr. Worf, activate the navigational deflectors." Picard's disdain was real
@@manny022 nah, give it all the phasers it needs and the biggest photon torpedo tubes into the canoe.
Nice to see love for the trident class. I prefer the newer refit that STO brought out because (unlike all the old launch ships) it has an actual clearly visible shuttlebay but I've always liked the layout and silhuette for a large research vessel to compiment the medical vessels of the Olympic and later Sencea classes.
I love that in Star Fleet Battles they have the dedicated Galactic Survey Cruiser (GSC), which is basically a heavy cruiser that replaces half the weapons with additional sensors and cargo space for extended missions.
I remember being bummed that there was no ship counter for the GSC and the Juggernaut and was happy when Task Force Games released a counter set for all the exotic ships in the game, including the GSC and the Juggernaut.
Happy New Year!
Oberth will always be the best ship the Federation had and nothing will be able to replace it.
No Intrepid Class ? With its capability to land on planets i would think the Intrepid would make a good science ship
I think Intrepid was supposed to be a science ship, now that you mention it.
Yes it would make a good science ship if given the right people. But the class as a whole was broadly multi purpose.
@@birdmonster4586 exploration frigate.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think it's beyond a frigate when considered in the context of the 2370s fleet.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Technology Demonstrator and test bed. Starfleet built a handful to test new technologies, such as the variable nacelle geometry, neural gel packs, spaceframe construction technology.. Then since the ships were already built, they assigned them whatever jobs came up.
Because each ship is designed for different types of science duties. Some are mobile labs while others are simple survey ships.
Oberth isn't too bad as a science ship, they are not supposed to get into too much danger, it was the fleet command's fault they were put into a warzone. The Galaxy's job was to charge head into the unknown, get beat up by dangerous space anomaly/alian and come out to tell the tale. Oberth's job is investigate the scene after the big boi gets a general idea of what is happening
I would point out that Grissom WASN'T in a warzone, Kruge just violated Federation space on his acts of war speed run.
@@Hartzilla2007 I can see how Star Fleet would give all the science team who's not a priority a budget ship like Oberth to keep their research alive just in case they are on to something big. A crew like this probably don't have a good sense of geopolitics
Yes, I got the same impression that the large well-armed and shielded explorers like the Connie and Galaxy would scout out the area to locate any threats, deal with them and move on. The Oberths would then move into the cleared safe space and remain on station for months or years to do the real research. @@chjeremy6538
it was built during the time where starfleet did cowboy science as it were. a decent amount of labs but not enough safety systems
I actually did add dedicated science vessels to my series. Since I started this decades ago and I'm crap when coming up with original designs. I went with a modified version of Discovery-1 and back up design being based off the Leonov.
It was after contact with the Federation and an alliance that Starfleet designs were used in the science roll. Since most classes of ships used were dedicated warships or patrol ships. I've expanded the fleet designs and profiles since. With the section on cruisers and the different types being a nightmare of diversity of my own creation.
Science ships with advanced sensors often doubled as scout ships in the Dominion War. The Phoenix-type Nebula class had a large sensor pod allowing for extended range. Ships like the Nova refitted properly for combat made good forward scouts that could outfight anything its size and outrun anything bigger.
the Nova class was built from the ground up to be a long range scout as a part of the list of ships built as a part of Starfleet's anti-borg program, the fact its extremely powerful sensor array was perfect for science was in fact a coincidence. it was a nova class that detected the borg cube that was involved in the battle of sector 001
Oberth,made of Explodium Q 38.
What are you recognising as the distinction between "long-range" telescopes and subspace sensors? And have you considered any other equipment, such as many different types of laboratories from medical to particle accelerators and potentially gravitational wave detectors?
I also assume by "long-range" you are really referring to high-resolution. Telescopes are not range limited, but distant objects may not be possible to resolve, according to their size. It is easier to observe some nebula thousands of light years away than faint M spectral type stars.
Even in the logic of a recon plane, it still fails because probes and automated supply ships exist.
@@dragonknightleader1, due to the distances involved, real-time control over the probes would be impossible and loading them with scientific equipment would be reckless, when there is the risk of contaminating a pre-warp civilisation.
Science ships really pull the short straw in Trek. I think thats primarily because the writers have zero idea of how a specialist ship like that would even function, no clue what the mission role for it would look like and couldn't 'sexy it up' with conflict that would make much sense.
As much as Trek already relies on technobabble, the kinds of things that would require a dedicated science vessel generally wouldn't be the most exciting stories to tell. Layer that on top of the general ignorance on the writers' part about how a pseudo-military organization like Starfleet functions and you can easily see why science ships really suffer in overall Trek writing.
The Trident and its counterparts in STO were never too appealing of a ship for me because of the lower pod. I finally decided to get one in hopes of making it work somehow. Lo' and behold, the pod can be removed altogether through the ship customisation! It's one of my favorite ships now.
The Trident really reminds me off those high-speed boats that seem to cut right through the surface water.
yeah its Suprisingly elegant
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I mean. Oberth WAS acquired from third parties. It was not build in mainline Starfleed shipyards like Utopia Planitia. But it was actually a Russian ship, build in Baikonur Cosmodrome. What mostly specialized in civilian designs. So Starfleet order most likely costumer design, leading to its problems. I would argue that Nova was probably best science ship in Starfleet rooster.
Like the Pegasus, the Oberth class of starships were often used as a test beds for new, experimental technologies. This class of starship was very modular in its configuration.
I love the Vesta Class ships and how they look. When they were released on Star Trek Online, I made sure to pick them up, because the design is simply beautiful.
the Odyssey and vesta classes ironically are tactical explorer dreadnaughts built to replace and fill in the roll the galaxy and sovereign classes used to be in and the Odyssey class was among the last of the ships built in the fleet's anti-borg ship program like the nova and sovereign classes.
I thought the Vesta was just a Slipstream Sovereign.
I love the Vesta class, it's a very unique ship and I remember fondly the story it was involved in. To me it is the science ship with teeth that Starfleet always wanted. Too bad that, yeah, once the Odyssey was (retroactively) introduced, it kinda became redundant.
Yeah depends which date you use for the launch of Odessey
@@venomgeekmedia9886 yeah I'd rather not have the Odyssey in the late 2380s
the Odyssey class was as much a science ship as the Sovereign class was, the Odyssey class was a part of the anti-borg ship design program
I could easily see 3 different science ship classes as suggested. Many people forget that Star Trek is a post-scarcity economy and so the bulk of the resources needed for large constructions are readily available. You could extend this idea to the other types of ships too, 3 different combat type vessels and 3 different operations type vessels. Then to add further variety you have new vs older designs for those roles with older but still functional ships still tooling around until they drop into the civilian market.
In the Original "tactical-Nova" concept there was no Second Defelector. They had 4 forward facing Torpedo tubes in the Saucer. making a total of 6 potentially in the forward arc.
One could make some argument for a light/heavy mix of science ships. With the "heavy" science ships still be fairly mid-sized overall.
Olympic seem like it would be a good choice for that sort of roll. Plenty of space to be configured for Scientific duties. Not too massive in size.
Now that would be a heavy torpedo volley. Especially for such a small ship. Would make for a true torpedo boat.
the Nova is now just a tactical scout and science ship being refit mid construction to fill all 3 of those roles. Starfleet had long abandoned 1 class filling a specific role to all their classes right up into the 25th century being able to fill any role as needed within the fleet
@@fangslore9988I would generally agree with a few exceptions. Olympic class isn't going on Tactical missions for example and a Nova Class isn't going to haul huge amounts of cargo, or do heavy repair work.
Generally. Starfleet pushes for multirole ships, and it's been very successful at that. But each ship can still have a bit of specialization there to fit it into a fleet role nicely.
Akira provides a heavy torpedo platform, Intrepid provides a Long range High speed Interceptor. Etc.
@@birdmonster4586 most in Starfleet's Admiralty would usually asign ships to tasks they are usually capable of dealing with. if there's an issue starfleet would send one of the classes from their dreadnaught line like an Odyssey or Vesta class or a ship a cruiser like the constitution class III which are built to also serve security and tactical roles. there are some older ships that are religated to the workhorse roles like the California class which is pretty much the only exception since they were built to be 2nd contact and background service ships, they also were built just prior to the launch of the galaxy class ships
When it comes to ships like the Vesta where you're able to have large departments who seemingly have nothing to do during times when the ship is on unrelated missions, that's not true because those are the times that they'd be running their larger, time intensive and personal projects without compromising any ordered mission.
Been looking forward to this
Read this was "Breen looking forward to this" at first and got real suspicious
Absolutely fantastic video
One of the things you have to remember about Star Trek is that Horatio Hornblower was a major influence on Gene, and Trek carries with it the odd mix of exploration, scientific research, and military conflict that might be expected of a 19th century sea voyage. Enterprise is closer to HMS Beagle than to CV-6. But that creates an expectation that every ship in the fleet should be at least a part-time warship when that’s definitely not a good idea. Depending on how you interpret the show, either Starfleet is hopelessly negligent in sending scientists off to war in ships with no meaningful firepower or protection, or else the fate of science vessels on the TV show is not representative of their service to Starfleet in general.
this is true which is why all starfleet ships cover a myriad of roles they don't do a ship thats strictly science unless they are engaging in that role, all ships being internally modular means that a Sovereign or Odyssey class can be reconfigured to act as science ships if needed but starfleet has never done this because it has never been needed. an explorer ship like the Sovereign and Odyssey classes respectively had more science labs then the oberth and crossfield class combined though they're both listed as tactical explorer dreadnaughts not a science ship
Science ships in Trek indeed are treated in a rather odd way.
Starfleet also basically going back in trying to figure out if it wants quantity or quality with its science ships.
Also given the scale chart, that does make me curious as to the nature of how much/little Starfleet focuses on biology in contrast to the physical sciences on their science ships.
I think starfleet has a natural bias towards the physical sciences
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Biology is also near to genetic engineering which starfleet has a big problem with so it may be generally less favored.
Any time I recall biological research being mentioned on a larger scale it seemed to take place on a starbase or some other more permanent installation
Im convinced this is Drachinifel's (AOS-WW2 naval historian) second account.
oh my I looove the crossfield bit...just imagining you metaphorically say the red light of a sniper scope on your forhead
I remember hearing once that originally the Pegasus that was equipped with the phasing cloak was supposed to be a Nebula variant of an Ambassador class but due to modeling it ended up an Oberth . I have a sketch of it somewhere .
give by my SUPER STAR SCIENCE DESTROYER and nobody gets hurt lol.
Is it not better to refer to the "Crossfield" as the McQuarrie-class?
Depends which version you prefer.
I like the Trident because it's got inspiration from starship designs that aren't human in origin. I wish we saw more of that from the Federation.
"You don't put all your eggheads in one basket" - Tell that to the guy who proposed the science facility in the Lantaru Sector
Imagine studying for years at Starfleet Academy.
Doing your very best to stand shoulder to shoulder with the best and brightest of the Federation. You finally graduate and…… you get assigned to an Oberth.
I find it curious that you did a video on science vessels and didn't mention the Intrepid class once. I mean the Voysger is of course canon.
I just about ask intrepid class too. She is my most favourite science vessel in startrek universe.
the entire intrepid class was dedicated to mid range exploration and science though the ship class is designated as a tactical science explorer and the first of the anti-borg line of ship classes. and a part of a new idiology change with in starfleet which is "do not build a ship class designed for 1 specific roll" indeed all following ships were built as tactical science explorers or tactical explorers the reason they are all designated as tactical ships is because of the battle of wolf 359 the newer classes were also armed to the teeth and given as many weapons as possible without making the ships into warships and this language continued right into the 25th century and is a mainstay. starfleet ships of the late 24th and early 25th century are simply multipurpose ships. best at everything specialist of nothing
@@fangslore9988 That seems like rather elaborate reasoning. I think it at least deserves to be mentioned as it is largely perceived as a Science vessel.
I always felt like the Oberth's potential was underutilized. Starfleet has several ships that have the "interchangeable module." the Oberth's belly, the Nebula "mission pod" even some of the less canon manuals had a ship that was little more than a cargo hauler, in that case, the pod was a giant tank that was either a cargo bay or colonization module designed as a drop style structure.
had they actually taken advantage of the Oberth it could have been a tactical gem for the Dominion war. they could have done the Grumall trick in several instances giving her a much stronger weapon than expected they also could have made larger weapons that would use the Oberth as the delivery platform. If they really wanted to have fun with the whole "Station with Engines" idea having a facility that is actually powered by one or more Oberth class ships. maybe a "Science Station" where the Oberth fleet stationed there are also used as dedicated power plants for systems/projects.
I remember in the TNG episode, Where No One Has Gone Before, when the Enterprise-D is first flung out into the far reaches of the universe, when the suggestion is made to study the crew's new surroundings, Picard mentions that it is better for Starfleet to send a pure science vessel to conduct the studies. That's such a garbage line because 1: Starfleet science vessels suck and 2: the Enterprise-D is supposed to have the latest and greatest gear and facilities aboard. The ship itself was purpose built in order to go into places where no one had been and study them. I'm not sure if I'd trust sending an Oberth class ship to Vulcan, let alone to a region of space more than 2,700,000 light years from Earth. (The writing at that time in TNG was similarly garbage... but that's another story.)
I think there were more Crossfield-Class ships, but only the Glenn and Discovery were built to the Spore Specifications, but overall the design didn’t really go anywhere because of the reasons you mentioned. and at that length, and at its complexity? it’d take some major retrofitting in the 2260’s with the Newer TMP line of ships, such as the Soyuz and Discovery Classes, were starting to come out, making the Crossfields Obsolete fairly quickly.
although the Discovery Class never went anywhere as the design while massively experimental was also a Colossal Flop. Technically it’s the missing link between the Crossfield and Oberth, It was big at around 300-350 meters long, and it was designed to have interchangeable pieces where specialized modules could be put in and switched out for others, and it could have ones specifically dedicated to Engineering and Science. However, unlike the Crossfield only a handful were produced, Two or Three maximum. and of those Two or Three built they had some pretty terrible problems relating to the Design, for starters, she had terrible Self-Defense capabilities, limited phaser coverage and bad launcher placement, this lead to one ship of the Class, the U.S.S. Theseus NX-1987, being critically damaged on numerous occasions, First Contact with the Tzenkethi, and their own encounter with V’ger prior to Kirk Prematurely Relaunching the U.S.S. Enterprise. The other class members look to have had similar hiccups aswell, and this eventually lead to the Discovery-Class being relegated only to Testbed duty for the Excelsior before the design was shelved for 90 years before one of its class members, The same old U.S.S. Theseus, was retrieved and rebuilt to be used as a Testbed ship once more for the Protostar and Odyssey programs … and to maybe save the universe.
And Vesta and Odyssey were coming out at around the same time (Vesta 2379 and Odyssey 2381.) but there is one key difference between the two that might’ve given the Vesta the edge it needed in terms of staying active, and it’s a thing that was tried on Odyssey but failed in Canon, The QSD. Vesta was equipped with a fully functional long range Quantum Slipstream engine, while the Odyssey can do slipstream and it was tested for Long Range Slipstream, it failed to go longrange and this has the Standard Slipstream Burst drive fitted on many of the newer ships throughout the fleet. This also causes Starfleet to look into new more slipstream adept Hull Plating. (Why some of the newer vessels are White & Dark Blue, it’s the new hull material which I think might be Diburnium. It makes them more structurally sound for Slipstream travel, and makes them tougher in combat too.) like Starfleet’s version of the Dauntless-Class, the Vesta-Class was designed for Long-Range Slipstream travel, allowing her to explore areas far beyond federation space, giving her the edge over the Odyssey that allowed her to stay in production and service for so long, and we are told from the BTS perspective that BOTH are in service in 2401, and although the model wasn’t finished in time for the final release, there were Vestas that were going to be part of the Frontier day fleet.
Discovery and the Glenn were crossfield configuration A classes while in star trek SNW's latest season showed the Crossfield configuration B classes which were built after the Klingon war as a long range sensor analysis platform built for stella catography which is why the crossfield configuration B has the top mounted sensor dish and and lack of secondary hull. basically a reverse refit
@@fangslore9988 Here's the thing, I don't think those were "Crossfield Configuration B Classes" or at least Not the Crossfield NS Variant, I think that that cruiser, While a federation Starship? was a different class, one that had one of its members captured at the end of the War, BUT I think we have seen other Crossfield Variants onscreen before. Before the Class was named. I think the model designated B-24-CLN was a Crossfield-Class or at least a variant of it.
@@Kreachie well the variaton with the spore drive weren't built specifically for the war but its likely the variation B was built during the war
@@fangslore9988 I think it's more likely the Variation B is a completely different Class of ship, It was likely Misidentified as a Crossfield by the Enterprise's Navigator. After all, not everyone is a Starship connoisseur like Jack Crusher.
Given it mainly uses Constitution Components? I'd say it debuted same time it had? but was never produced in numbers as the Constitution was. Probably choosing Refitting the Older models over building new ones, probably due to cost at the time and with not much Threat-wise going on with nothing going on there at that moment.
@@Kreachie no the variation B is a refit according to the show runners of SNW basically the first ships uss Crossfield uss Discovery and USS glenn were all built to house the spore drive the uss Crossfield has no actual information on it but the glen was destroyed and the rest of the Crossfield classes were refit from a science ship to a battle ship since the design of the original Crossfield class was built to house the spore drive itself.
basically starfleet was building more at the time after the first including the USS Crossfield but then after the spore drive failed in the Glen and then was classified above top secret with the uss Discovery, they refit the Crossfields that were still under construction to what it looks like in Strange New Worlds which is basically in line with how star fleet treats their ships. i do wish we got to learn about the original USS Crossfield, there is liturally no information other than like per tradition of starfleet the class was named after the first ship of that configuration ie USS Constitution, USS Defiant, the USS Akira and the USS Galaxy
We've seen science departments fight for their scheduled sensor/deflector time in the episode Lessons on the Enterprise D.
"As you can see"
Proceeds to only show parts of the ship, heavily zoomed in.
Long post warning.
I was always under the impression that ships like the Oberth were the ultimate "everything or nothing" platform that committed to any type of assignment that didn't warrant an actual ship of the line or cruiser to see what was going on. Those assignments being the following.
A: so important you can only let an admiral or 2, and the people working on them directly, NEED to know it's going on, but also letting them stay mobile while avoiding unnecessary casualties,(ex: the Pegasus with the phased cloak) or;
B: missions so mundane, they need what amounts to a Coast Guard patrol boat with a science kit to go look at it, so that larger and more experienced crews or their ships aren't being held up or made unavailable when a BIG mission/call comes in.
Hence why the Oberth was so smol and still working into the mid to late 2300's, despite ships like Mirandas and Excelsiors doing that same kind of work, but with better results quicker and, I'd argue, with slightly less risk to their respective crews than Oberths amd their own.
Think on it. How many Oberths have we seen onscreen that weren't already disabled or their crew already dead? And how many Mirandas under these same conditions? Now, how many of both were working on some super secret project? How many were illegal or treaty breaking, war starting even, if they got out or were discovered preemptively?
Now if you think I forgot to ask about Excelsiors, congrats, you get a cookie, cuz I didn't. The only time we see Excelsiors onscreen prior to the War is when they're escorting people from point A to point B, fighting fighting other Fed ships under admirals' orders, or doing their regular jobs. How many more are out there, doing something that isn't worth the viewers' time? Or doing work so secret that they could join the ranks of "secret project" themselves? Remember, Excelsior was born from the transwarp experiment. How long was that thing's design and mathematical bases being worked on before its keel was ever laid, its hull ever designed? Its engine and improved core being scrutinized and modified to ensure it didn't blow the first time it was used in a live pursuit scenario?
I'm sorry... I look at Trident, and all I can see is "Bulldozer". Srs. How much to get her to come by and sweep the snow off my street?
Okay real serious though. I like the idea of special science ships for special science things. Science is, afterall, not a single unified theory, but a collection of disciplines and information from a huge array of practices. The biologist gives a fiddler's about the geologist, about as much as the chemist cares about the physicists. But, science can (and will) go wrong, so Trident makes the right call by having the ability to yeet those evil book learnt bastards into outer space when things go strange.
Splendid as always. Looking forward to another year of magic from you, Venom Senpai.
the Vesta wasn’t exactly a dedicated science vessel considering that among other things she has highly experimental heavy weapons
What about the intrepid or nebula classes? Those were strong science vessels
both are science ship, yes but they fill in maybe a few other roles. starfleet never puts all its eggs in 1 basket anymore. if they need science labs all explorers come equiped. frankly they never needed a dedicated science ship since the 23rd century. old oberth classes ironically were given to civilians or used as training ships.
It's an unsung hero. Simple, utilitarian, probably cheap and yet has all the essentials it needs to carry out the scientific roll it's designed for.
We could imagine such a vessel carrying out all the important yet dull(compared to exciting exploration of new frontiers) chores deep within the safety of Fed space studying various scientific rolls of spacial anomalies, planets stars and alien life forms like bacteria, plants and animals etc. For that, surely it can only be seen as an excellent design. It's not intended as a front line ship nor should it ever be posted to such places which can only be seen as a failing of command rather than the ship should it find itself in such a reckless position.
The reality is a single scientific ship, no matter how advanced, can't see what's happening at the other side of a planet or star or nebula etc and realistically for such studies to be accurate need at least 3 points of contact around such things, and therefore we could imagine our cheap yet capable little Oberths working in a pack of 3 or more for such studies and doing a far better and more accurate job than a single superior ship.
Also, it's upper and lower hull are wonderfully isolated from each other as though by purposeful design so that in cases where alien samples and creatures and plants etc are being studied, remain completely isolated and quarantined in the lower hull along with the involved scientists. That way, if one of the alien samples or species turns out to be lethal or a scientists studying it grows a 3rd eye lol, are completely isolated from the crew in the upper hull. There's only thin structures connecting the two hulls which contain the turbolifts so whenever an Oberth is conducting such studies, so long as it's standard practice that the crew are separated and isolated along with the turbolift locked and the tubes basically exposed to space... ya that's a great design for studying potentially lethal alien life. Was that just coincidence by the original designer of that Oberth? Surely there's no way the writers and designers thought that deeply about it.
To me starfleet has always had vessels perfectly suited to science vessels so i never understood the need ro create a whole new class.
Early/Mid Starfleet had the Constitution, Excelsior and Ambassador as great Line vessels, jack of all trades.
But they had the Miranda and Constellation class which seem to be perfect for several sub-class vessels.
You've got border protection, escorting, transport, logistics and science and all you gotta do is alter the interior during construction, give them a more suitable "pods" depending on the type being built and you've got ships able to be built relatively easily for dedicated roles while you're focussing on ships of the line for general use.
Then in the Mid/Late era your jack of all trades are your Excelsior, Ambassador and Galaxy.
And then you have the AMAZING Nebula class that is just screaming to be mass produced for a variety of specialist roles and (in all honesty) could of been the template for every single vessel in Starfleet.
They look weird because they are fitted with special instruments, labs, and facilities that a typical exploratory vessel may not have room for, or specialize in at all. Keep in mind some of the experiments may be classified, involve chemicals, temporal anomalies, wildlife, radiation, etc and might be dangerous to a civilian population or the rest of the crew. I think the the Oberth-class looks awesome. The saucer is isolated from the hull section, where experiments and lab work are conducted.
I've always had this thought in the back of my head. It really came from playing STO (this isnt really related to the video) but the pioneer class would look better as a ENT-Era ship, with its close nacelles and no neck on the secondary haul. Just a interesting thought 🤔
After some thought, I now see ST science ships like our own fishing ships. Our fishing ships have specific duties (fishing), but they've been pressed into military service (sometimes voluntary) during wars; though usually as convoy protection, scouts, advance warning, etc. China uses them for overt border bullying.
I would think that the explorer class ships (essentially the classes that get to have NCC-1701) would be sent out to explore the boundaries of known space since they tend to be more capable of defending themselves from hostility, whether alien or anomaly. When they find something worth researching, they stay there, doing what they can while a science class ship is sent out. Once the science ship arrives, the explorer can return to exploring.
correct the Odyssey and vesta classes were tactical explorer dreadnaught classes and the Odyssey class itself was built as the last class of starfleet's anti-borg ship program
I saw the Nova class as more of a scout/survey class, with the Intrepid filling the role of a science vessel. The Odessey class feels more like a ship designed to be a task force CnC ship. Large number of consoles around the bridge could be helmed by a dedicated officer acting as a liason between the Odessey ship and the other ships within the taskforce much like Super carriers are today in the Navy.
this is actually very accurate. the Intrepid class was indeed a tactical science ship class, they were their refit version like USS Voyager in the STV (startrek voyager) (which only ever got a quantum torpedo launcher) was the first of the anti-borg ship line. the USS Voygar was specifically designated as a tactical science explorer. built specifically not as a explorer but science ship first and they used the class to test out the neuro-gel pack system. the USS Voyager prior to chasing the maquis into the badlands was conducting research of the Bajoren wormhole
@Venomgeakmedia Hey Mike have you had any talks with any artist that you work with about depictions of 32nd Century Romulan Ships. Yes in Discovery Romulans and Vulcan have under gone reunification, and Vulcan is renamed in that spirit and we see low resolution Nivar Vessels in the episode "That hope is you part 2" but in discovery we see there is still Division in the reunification, it would make sent that the Romulans are building their own ships as would Vulcan and then theirs the Nivar Fleet. I'd be interested in a 32nd century war bird and I've been working on some theories to draw my self, but I'd be interested in also seeing what you may come up with?
Thinking of the "Galileo Seven", how the TOS Enterprise had standing orders to investigate "all quasars and quasar-like phenomena"; send out one (or several) shuttlecraft with a science module installed. Much science is not done by science ships, just like the voyages of discovery (a society hiring a ship, sometimes from the military service). Shuttlecraft even more mundane (and squishy) than the Oberths.
Not a great 'scope' but send out several, plus the mother ship for coverage. More importantly, observing from different locations. The Oberths and similar ships having modularity makes great advantage to send out a group of ships with the same module to observe something at a larger scale from different parts of space (or different distances), especially for a short-term event. Like the Transit of Venus (across the Sun) in 1769 which was observed by ships at different points around the world.
Why do you need science ships when ever ship was so many laboratorys
Well that is the question
Damn that Trident is so chokny it's ready to be thrown at a specific US President
As much as I love to diss on the Oberth class, I'm going to mention the positives instead. Starfleet might not have an economy (they got rid of money), but they still need to allocate resources. So the Oberth class was built as a small, dedicated science ship. This frees up Starfleet to build tougher, more multi-purpose starships. As a science ship, the Oberth excels. It has very capable sensors. Unfortunately, it has next to no combat capability. This isn't as much as a problem as you think it is, especially when all the captain has to do is warp out of there as soon as danger is detected.
i forget have you done a video on the trident or vesta?
Not specifically
I'd just like to know what 'sensors' look like in Star Trek- not simply their worth in numbers and hull-placement, but what about their physical parameters can be served by a dedicated category of vessels.
It's like if a sensor corresponded to a solar sail, then a vessel using it would have to accommodate that sail, or if a sensor was similar to an array of transmitter/receivers, then a vessel might prefer to 'deploy' it rather than 'mount' it, depending on how great a range and resolution you wanted.
If 'sensors' consisted solely of directed energy devices for scanning, and electromagnetic detecting receivers, or just collecting samples via transporting and forcefield-containment, then I fail to see what a specialization in a dedicated 'science-vessel' category accomplishes.
I'd find it more believable if 'science' ships aren't so much about mounting the equipment (that can be mounted on any vessel) and having the needed power, (that's the same type across all vessels), so much as compatibility. I'd find it believable that the advanced equipment used for various scientific disciplines might have vastly different algorithms for sorting data and making useful simulations, and as such, wouldn't be interchangeable with one another. It would be believable then that those systems and programming wouldn't be compatible with more common 'run-of-the-mill' sensors used for general spacefaring, or even combat.
A dedicated class with the versatility to handle the different classes of scientific instrumentation in one vessel, or else optimized for specialty in one discipline's dedicated instruments, would make much more sense to me. I just don't think the design dogma of 'one-saucer-one-secondary-hull-two-pylons-and-nacelles' would be useful to that end.
My first exposure to the Oberth Class was in the Starfleet Academy game for PC.
When I chose it and the instructor basically went “LOL, GOOD LUCK” I realized the ship sucked ass compared a Constitution or Miranda class.
A science vessel needs to house scientific instruments and those may have some specific requirement. I remember seeing a picture of a converted WW2 era British bomber that remained in service for, if I do not misremember, until the eighties at least. It carried a huge circular antenna device making the whole aircraft looking odd. Apparently, they used these aircrafts for some maritime patrols.
Btw, why do the Federation put saucer sections on their ships? It could easily be written into the lore that the saucer section has a huge, more or less circular sensor built into it. The other possible reason, that may have influenced the show in its creation has not been used. Star Trek do have artificial gravity in the form of gravity plating. Without that a saucer section, with a rotating interior could have been used.
I just remember seeing an animated fan movie. While there were no science vessels in the story a plot point was that the protagonist's ship, while otherwise obsolete could handle stresses that ships are not normally designed for. As such, her vessel, a small merchant vessel, formerly military ship could take a shortcut through an interstellar cloud that would wreck other vessels. Science vessels can be designed handle environments extreme environments. Military submarines don't go as deep as science intended submarines for instance.
Everyone claims the Oberth is a death trap... but these ships were so numerous that they entered the civilian sector. More so they were modular internally not externally. That multiple modules is not actual canon. One more HUGE mistake is saying the Nova was improved by an extra sensor dish *you called is a deflector but that's wrong too* when the back of the Oberth possessed a rear facing sensor dish.
The Oberth was 100% dedicated science vessel with the secondary hull being dedicated to the ship's specific missions.
No slouch in that regard.
The Nova was a step backwards being a short range scout/science vessel that didn't hold up at all to what it was to replace.
"Sciences" include too many fields of interests that all can't be packed up into one multi-purposes ship class, on that I don't understand Star Fleet. Every most advanced scientific tools are prototypes, unique and can't be standardized... like CERN vs BNL colliders, or Hubble vs James Webb telescopes. But as awesome a super telescope can be, it's useless to someone researching genetics. On that aspect, the Oberth class was more customizable than all subsequent classes, only carrying what specifically needed for its searchers.
However, Searchers are always at the limits of the (real often hostile) unknown, therefore a self-reliant very fast ships is the best (to explore and avoid/escape fights)... on that aspect no class meet the specifications... except maybe the intrepid class if having a second deflector dish and being more customizable.
p.s. the Oberth class is ugly AF... the need of teleporters to access the secondary hull represent a waste of energy who could easily be solved if having a neck in between.
I'd be interested in a companion video on Romulan, Cardassian, and Ferengi research ships. (I don't think Klingons do much science if they can help it) But I'm not sure there's much information out there to fill out a full video.
I find the oberth to be aesthetically pleasing and beautiful.
The absense of dedicated science ships in earlier Star Trek can honestly be explained quite easily by pointing out that the space in which Starfleet operated was much more of a Wild West back then.
Like, should you send a dedicated science ship on a mission, you would always want to send an escort along with it because there was always a good chance of running into a known or unknown threat.
You know what would be better than sending an escort though? That’s right! If the science ship would just have the means of defending *itself*.
And maybe the means to carry out longer term exploration missions so that we can “tame” the Wild West. And, oh hey whaddaya know, it’s the Constitution class.
I never understood how personnel from the upper hull were able to get to the lower hull of an Oberth.
Especially as site-to-site transport wasn't really a thing then
According to "Enterprise," Archer states that the NX-01 was designed as an exploration (aka science) ship.
I would draw a distinction between explorer and science ships.
Honestly I love the Oberth class design - not for any logical reason but I’ve just always liked the way it looks. Sometimes when I was a kid I’d daydream that a Starfleet ship appeared in our universe and beams me up, and it was usually an Oberth class. I used to play the game Starfleet Academy and I loved setting up custom scenarios where I was in an Oberth and trying to do things it was never meant to do like taking on three Birds of Prey. lol idk I’m just weird, I know most people think it’s ugly but I can’t help myself.
I too like the Oberth class design!
I am convinced that the Oberth is more than just a single class. More like a type of ship, and the Oberths of the 23rd Century aren't the same as the Oberths of the 24th Century. And there are fanon and even one beta canon designs that are basically an Oberth configuration, but the components are different (but so similar as to be considered by laymen as the same design)!
Even the hulls might be built in different sizes, because they seem to have what are shuttlebays built into the hull!
And their equipment and even nacelles would change over time! From Frigate and Destroyer variants of the Oberth class, to Oberths using nacelles based off of the Excelsior, Ambassador, and possibly even a few Galaxy type nacelles!
And they would be everywhere. Not just used as civilian science vessels, but perhaps even used as transport tugs and converted passenger vessels!
And the Nova class has a whopping 11 phaser arrays! Not 5! 11!!! And can be equipped with up to 6 torpedo launchers!
The pitch for the oberth was if 1 falls ten shall take their place
Separating the living quarters from engineering/science section on the Oberth is genius.
Virus breaks containment? You have a literal vacuum separating the outbreak and the civilians & remaining crew. Crazy undetected radiation from some artifact? Again, there's distance separating the living quarters.
In an era where Transporters are the Safest Way To Travel (tm), there's no real reason to physically connect the sections of the hull. Especially for a class that will never spend time outside Federation space, where help is always close by.
I absolutely love the Oberth. But I cannot accept the canon length of 120 meters. 150 is closer. 240 meters makes the most sense to me.
All MSD's show an impossible ship at 120 meters. The bridge would take up most of the saucer section. The cargo doors would be way too small. It makes no sense at 120 meters.
Oberth class: old, fragile, small, poorly armed. California-class: relatively new, robust, medium sized, armed to defend itself. Guess which one star fleet uses as a first line science vessel and which one is the auxiliary vessel.
The California class is like a number of classes from their era and have Engineering, Tactical and Science versions of the base hull. Cerritos is an Engineering variant (c.f its yellow circle on the saucer) IIRC Merced was a Science version. The Odyssey has four varients, the three specialised ones and a middle of the road multirole version like the Enterprise-F
I do so love the Vesta class.
I can't help but say
Can the trident float
Imagine seeing it puttering about in an ocean like a comically oversized cruise liner
Don't go talkin bout my girl, the Vesta. Her creator made it a Sovereign with a 2nd or 3rd generation slipstream drive and Galaxy style scientific capacity. Her mission was deep space exploration. Upon this hill, I am willing to die.
The Trident makes the most sense as a dedicated science vessel. That nacel profile means she's not as good for exploration, but she's got it where it counts. I might not hurt to make her smaller, though.
I love the Vesta, and do not consider anything related to STD as canon
Seeing dicovery and hearing the best and brightest of the time XD
"This is the power of math people!" ;)
If one is to take the Enterprise TV series as canon (and I see no reason why not), the only reason why Starfleet ships have weapons at all is because they discovered that space is neither as empty nor as peaceful as they assumed. All Starfleet ships, unless specifically spelled out to be anything else, are first and foremost science ships (even if by the time Next Gen comes around, they are pretty much general purpose, useable-for-everything-good-for-nothing). Creating a specific Science Ship class is a massive waste since it basically creates a ship that is twice as expensive as anything else, even if a lot smaller, but has zero capacity for self-preservation.
It was at 4:35 that you earned my sub
USNS Hayes (T-AGOR-16/T-AG-195) is a real life US Navy science ship with no weapons which is basically an Oberth like ship.
USNS Kane (T-AGS-27) another Navy Science like ship, no weapons.
I like the Oberth, its a true research ship that was never meant for the front lines and is like the US Military Science ships.
When people mock and call it explodim I like to remind people of real science ships for the Navy and told them to go to the service men and women of those ships the same thing and they would most likely get laid out for it.
I have always thought that instead of wasting money and resources building Oberths, Star Fleet should have simply upgraded and repurposed the old TOS Constitution (pre-refit) in their science departments and sensor arrays to do what these ships were already great at doing, exploration, scientific investigation and technology testing! Since their introduction in 2245, they had proven to be almost endlessly upgradable. How are Connies better than Oberths you say, let me count the ways:
1. Larger. More internal volume for labs, equipment and personnel (specialist).
2. Have always been capable of exploration and scientific investigation in a variety of science fields, and always covered the three categories you presented. With no longer having the responsibilities of defense or any of the other of the multiplicity duties it once had they would be even better at pure science!
3. They are faster and more maneuverable. By the third season of TOS Constitution class had a maximum speed of warp 8, and an emergency warp speed of 9 (old scale), which still makes faster than an Oberth's maximum of warp 5 (new scale). More Maneuverable because they are or were combat vessels. Although that might pale in comparison to a late 24th century vessel, it's still better than an Oberth!
4. Greater survivability. The TOS Constitution is better armed, armored and shielded. It could survive long enough to run or perhaps even defeat something an Oberth had no chance against. Seriously, I'd bet on a TOS Connie from the 2260's defeating an Oberth from the 2370's in combat any day. They would been excellent as scouts and picket early warning platforms during the Dominion War.
5. Cost. Minor refits of old Constitutions, which was the standard for that class of ship anyway, would be far more cost effective than designing and building a bran new class of vessel! That includes logistical support!
In conclusion, Star fleet could save themselves a lot of money, and frankly a lot of lives, if they had simply stuck with the old Connies!
The thing about the Connies is that even as flying antiques, they were more expensive than Oberths even though they are objectively better in every way. We see it in the Constellation Class, the Centaur Class, and the Miranda Class where the Feds needed decent workhorses using proven technology that wasn't the Excelsior. Those ships exist because the Constitution Refit had hit its operational lifespan, but didn't have the quantity that the Oberth had either.
Oberth requires a smaller crew
Ah yes… “simply upgrade”….
More expensive to build new ones, yes. But more expensive to upgrade? I seriously doubt it! Especially with parts, maintenance and all manner of logistical infrastructure already in place; add to the fact that the TOS Constitution (pre-refit) mission parameters being reduced to science only, it would be a bargain in long term gains. In addition the TOS Connies, even into the 24th, could go farther and longer with little if any outside support (depending on the mission). I agree with you example of the Constellation, Centaur, and Miranda that I believe make my argument. Indeed, a dedicated batch of purpose built for science Mirandas would have been the perfect answer! Though I would have to disagree with you about the Constitution Refit having reached the end of its operational service life. I believe the Miranda simply made the Connie Refit superfluous. The TOS Connie, for me, is more serviceable, lacking some the design flaws of the refit. Honestly, I have long felt the refit should have had the prefix NX.
There may have not been enough left. I remember reading somewhere that Kirk was the only one to bring his ship back after a five year mission.
Not only that, a lot of time had passed since the construction of the Connies. It’s possible that science vessels could be built like the Liberty freighters in WW2.
Oh those scientists not doing planetary surveys or whatever the rest of the crew is working on/studying will be fine, they'll just work on their next thesis/book/peer reviewing! They love doing that really ;)
Scientific means that they can run experiments address sensors but probe Manufacturing manufacturing detection arrays customized for the particular phenomenon and containment facilities
There's ought to be some dead ends whole developing starships. The Oberth may or may not have been one. I actually like that it has become a controversy of sorts.
Might also be interesting to turn to sociology here. Phenomenons like technology-paths, lock-ins and increased returns might explain why the Oberth was so common for a while.
For instance - at least with humans - there is often a tendency to stick with a chosen path instead of investing resources for a new one.
gonna get the sovereign class shipchat? I'd like to know how it impacted the dominion war as a next generation starship from the galaxy.
what are kilingon or romulan science ships like if they exist.
Cheers
Starfleet ships make no sense, unless one assumes that the federation has infinite resources, which, according to most of ST plots, it doesn't.
The reason you would build a dedicated science vessel is because not all exploration/research requires the resources of a full blown starship.. it’s the same reason why we don’t send a full size Aircraft Carrier to study Antarctic Currents or whale migration patterns….
Federation Starships are large, resource intensive vessels built to be a Jack of all trades, but not necessarily the master of all…
People complaining that an Oberth is too easily destroyed by Klingon warships or other alien warships is like complaining that an Oceanic research trawler is too weak when attacked by a destroyer or a Battlecruiser…. They aren’t supposed to be Invincible warships… at best you have Baltic defenses and weapons to protect yourself from pirates and hostile attacks.. Not Full blown Combat Ships…