This data took a lot of time to collect and analyze. Hopefully It's helpful for you! Find Bifacial Solar Panel sources and discounts on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/ EVERYDAYDAVE Discount Link fort Signature Solar Panels: signaturesolar.com/all-products/solar-panels/?ref=SALE SunGold Power Bifacial Solar Panels Affiliate Link: sungoldpower.com/collections/bifacial-solar-panels?ref=Projects%20With%20Everyday%20Dave Vertical Bifacial Solar Panel Performance Results Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/5AVO1IyfA9M/v-deo.html Vertical Solar Panel With Reflector Results Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/xD1MT-ek05w/v-deo.html
Dave, I haven’t used it, but I know that Microsoft Copilot could probably choose through your data and spit out all kinds of charts already. Give it a try and reply back if it’s helped you. I think Google Gemini could do the same thing possibly
Actually I was thinking of South facing Winter Angle. Method #2 on Renogy webpage seasonal orientations. ( For winter: Optimal Tilt Angle = 42° x 0.9 + 29° = 66.8° ). 42° is the Latitude used. But I would love to see the results of this current test also
I've been wanting to expand a farm system with a fence of vertical panels that will be tied into an existing inverter but wasn't sure how the peaks would line up with the existing panels, and your work has been an excellent resource for me. THANK YOU!
Great video! I live in the Arizona desert, west of the Phoenix metro. During summer, turbulent desert winds force distributed airflow, so leaving a few inches of space helps a bunch. Here, we can also lose an easy 16%, due to dust and film buildup. Oddly, derating for high heat, dust, wire loss, and other losses seems to always end up in the narrow range of about 46% to 49%, so doubling the number of panels works out. So, most people calculate what they need productivity, then double that for the design panel capacity. Also, I have some vertical panels in an east/west configuration, which extends my solar day enough to reduce need for battery capacity.
Even though all this tech info is over my head, I really like your videos. I am subscribed, liking each video I watch, and black belled. One thing I really like about your video, is you wait until way into video before asking people to like it. I hate going through 2 minutes of ads and asks before videos get going good. thanks Edit: So, since I can't get a handle on this info with my bad memory, I will wait for my TSLA robot to learn your video by watching and do it for me when I get it. lol
At the risk of being redundant… your content is greatly appreciated. Thank you for being so polished and informative. I hope you’re well compensated for the obvious work you put into your videos.
Here in Ontario Canada installed south east vertical panels. Major goal is to have low sun snow free panels, when there is winter sun they are my major solar source as the slopped ones are covered in snow.
Dave, I watched the entire video, at normal speed. I didn't fully understand everything you said, but you presented it very well. I'm doing research on getting solar panels for our new house that I had built and we moved into a year ago (Nov). It's an Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) home, so very energy efficient. I had it prepped for solar and I have a Bluetti AC500 and two AC300 batteries that I use in my 5th wheel installed in the home, and used as a UPS for my freezers, frig, and gas furnace (fan). I've hooked up my 420 W portable solar panels to it and it worked flawlessly. I've also got the house wired for a 30A generator. I had the wiring to the Bluetti set up so I can use it as the primary power source for my "critical loads" (freezers, frig and furnace), but also be powered by the grid, or the generator if the grid was down and I was relying on solar or generator power. So... this is why I'm looking into putting up a ground based solar array, to provide more power to charge my batteries (now they only provide enough power for about 3 hrs during peak sun) fully, use them during the night, and provide power and recharge the batteries during the next day. If the day is cloudy, the grid would then take over and provide the power needed (the Bluetti has a setting for this). What I gleaned from your research is 1 - Ground mount solar panels 2 - Use bifacial panels 3 - Orient the panels south Did I get right? BTW, love your channel and have been a subscriber for a while now. Hope you make it to 100k.
Thanks for the sub! Yes, you got it right. You could go even further and put white rock under the array to improve the reflection if it doesn't cost too much extra. Use PVwatts: pvwatts.nrel.gov/ To determine the tilt angle that will give you the most power during the time of year when you need it the most.
There are one or two points I like to add. When you primarily want to charge your battery, orient them south makes most sense. When you choose an angle of about 30 degree, you''ll have the most yield in summer time when there is a lot of sun anyway. When you put them up steeper, you'll have, compared to 30 degree more yield in winter. Depending on how many panels you will have, it could make sense to have a support that you can change. When you orient panels west or east, you'll have more yield when most people consume most of their power - before leaving to or after returning from work.
Fantastic video! Haha love that "Everyday Dave" has turned into "Data Dave" and "Science Dave". Keep up the good work and your data is much appreciated. Greetings from Norway :)
I appreciate there's actually someone out there more picky about data collection and experimentation than I am. I wonder if it would make sense to put an IR filter on some of the panels. I imagine most panels can't make use of IR at all, but IR is what generates the most heat.
nah a good amount of solar panel power generation comes from IR wavelengths. this is why putting a solar panel inside a window cuts its generation by about half. glass blocks most IR and UV but lets visible light only through
Dave, looks like good stuff! Be sure to research winegrape vineyards there are theories about north south vs east west trellising systems. Grapevines are very much a solar design project!
For Engineers only, lol. i don't know a coefficient from a you-know-what! STEM dummy here and got lost after a couple of minutes but i gave you a thumbs up anyway for effort :)
Most excellent Dave! Appreciate the work. Been waiting for the vertical results as its the configuration that works best for my property. Looking forward to the N-S results.
You did some good work there Dave with all that data collection. The data reveals what common sense thinking assumes, but you have taken the guess work and what if...out of the equation.
My new 3.3kw vertical array with snow and clear sky, 4180W at 2C before the mppt overloads, I had to shade the array with a stick keep it at 3kw. Same array at summer solstice with no white rock 1800W.
Great video Dave, I did see a video of a water cooled ground array where the guy mounted a rain gutter along the bottom of the solar panels to catch the water and it emptied into a insulated cooler which had a small solar driven water pump (like for a bird fountain) to send the water back up to the top of the array where he had a pvc tube with tiny holes in it to drizzle the water over the solar panels. It was effective also, I believe if memory serves that he lives in Arizona and it lowered his solar panel temps by about 20-30 F. Happy New Year to you and all here ! ✨🎉🎊
That's an interesting solution. I wonder how hot the water gets? Maybe it's not that important since evaporative cooling would be significant in this case. I still don't like the idea of constantly flooding everything with water.
Nice! I would say the black panels absorb at least 20% more heat than the bifacial panels. That's because the bifacials convert 20% of the energy reflected onto them directly into electricity, so there will be that much less heating.
One thing to point out- when discussing Delta T, you would not add in 32 when converting from degrees C to degrees F. Zero delta is zero, whether it's C or F.
Nice info, thank you Dave. I tend to think that the configurations of the panels for the sake of heat management has a direct effect on the longevity of the panels, extending their service life. When you say "string inverters", there were some panels manufactured with microinveters on each string within the individual panels. These panels were excellent on dealing with shading and had a sizable increase in year to year efficiency. Unfortunately due to the grid tie market rule changes, there were issues with automated disconnects during power outages. Grid tie trends typically control the market when it comes to panels.
I suspect the vertical panels will last longer. They see lower peak temperatures and avoid the most intense radiation during the day. But, maybe lifetime production is the same?
When you suggested I subscribe, I went to do it, but was surprised to find I already had. This is significant: this means you don’t over-upload like most do. Thank you for that.
When you get to trying some of your temperature tests on roof mounted array, perhaps consider a black/dark roof and a white painted roof - this alone makes
The hard part is getting back to back data for a reliable comparison. I have to think about how to get a valid result. Maybe sliding something white behind a portion of the array on a dark roof.....
Brilliant piece of analysis. I have Bi facial panels mounted horizontally, 4 inches above my RV (motorhome) roof and wondered if it was better to have my roof painted silver, to help bounce light back to the Bi facials or painted black, such that the RV itself absorps the heat, rather than the heat being bounced back and adsorbed by the panels? Great work anyways and i look forwards to your future experimentation.
You should have the best result with a reflective surface. You can see some similar results from this video I did with bifacial panels on a white roof: ua-cam.com/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/v-deo.html
For the difference of temperature between vertical and inclined panels maybe is the natural convection (chimney effect) made by the curvature and temperature of the panel. Vertical panel has always less exposition to the solar radiation, it doesn't reach the maximum irradition, so it has less temperature. But with vertical bifacial panels you can extend the timing of production. Good data too, thank you. i´m planning to install an hybrid panel setup to my roof with water cooled and standard monocrystalline panels. because I have a little problem with space.
Amazing testing, thanks for all the hard work! Depending on the size of the setup, vertical panels (in addition to some standard angled ones) might make more sense than going with only bifacials in the optimal angle. I'd rather have 2 bifacial in optimal angle, than 1 vertical and 1 in optimal angle. But some people and use cases might only allow for vertical panels. Basically, as long as one has money and space, fill everything with more panels!
Water heating piping should be incorporated into solar panels in high solar strength locations, like Socal and Mexico. The heating loop can be plumbed into the water storage tank and have a thermostat circulating pump controller
You should do simple tests with mylar blankets under the open bifacial panels mounted with an angle. These are very cheap ways to improve solar incidence over the panels.
Great real world data about bi-facial vs standard PV panel temp coefficient effects! My system is on my RV. Only had space for 6 * 340 Watt panels. Solar Panel used: Canadian Solar CS1H-340MS, 340 Watt shingled Mono-PERC I wanted to use Bi-facial but couldn't find any in the form factor that worked on my roof leaving a 14" gap for a walkway, ventilation and a little sunroof in the ACs old spot. PV dimensions: 992mm X 1700mm (39" X 67") AC/heat is now a split system heat pump so no big box to install around and shade the PVs. Before install, the roof was decluttered and refinished with white silicon "Paint" to prevent heat buildup under the panels. The panels are about 6 inches US units (Or 152.4 mm International units..🥸) above the roof and angled up towards the RV centerline to help with convective and wind assisted hot air removal. Snow is encouraged to take the downhill exits off the sides of the roof. During testing, with RV parked in it's N-S orientation, the PVs are horizontal along the RV's N->S length and slightly angled upward from the RV walls towards it's centerline. These small E-W angles actually makes a noticeable difference in power generation as the sun moves E->W thru the day. I have 2 MPPT controllers, each handling 3 PVs in series on the E and W side of the RV. On warm days with full sun I was seeing upwards of 80% of advertised power generation, about 1500+ Watts. Before the RV install, around Spring equinox (Colder, more direct Sun), I had bench tested a single 3 PV series connected array on my low pitch garage roof. The power generation, with about a 15 degree south facing orientation was more than the rated 340 Watts. Expected max was 1020 watts @ 25 C (77 F), at about 5 deg C (40 deg F) observed max was as high as 1250+ watts. I was elated with this intermittent but repeatable result. On the RV system, on a hot day with full sun, when AC is desired (From 300 to 1000 watts for AC) the solar can cover that while putting more than 500 W into the battery . Now I need to find a 12 or (preferably) 48 volt conversion for my watt gobbling pig of a refrigerator (300W 24/7 @ 120v)! Another 48v 100 Amp hour battery will be added as well to cover those cloudy days. Thank you and Happy New Years!
Hey, for what it's worth, Linus mentioned the Solar/Thermal panels in the most recent livestream WAN show (1 hour & 2 minutes in), and said they need to be replumbed since he forgot to add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) before the winter freeze last year. solar PV still works, but no thermal benefits now.
In his first install he said he planned to drain it for the winter so he didn't have to use glycol. Maybe he decided that wasn't practical. The cost of having to go back and work on the system will likely negate the benefit for the next 20 years.
@@ProjectsWithDave Hopefully it's just the plumbing, and not the heat exchangers on the panels too. I'd love to see the production numbers for his panels. I don't think I've heard any hard numbers, but it wasn't exactly a large system to begin with.
Does anyone remember The Red Green Show? I hear that guys voice when Dave talks. I’d kick in a few bucks just to hear him say, “If they don’t find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!”😂
Great video thank you. I'm still not sure on bifacial as the underneath would be shaded in normal mounting? If the face of a normal panel was that shaded then the output would be very low or with no output at all. So bifacials would have to be mounted differently. Vertically be a bit of a wind trap.
I moved the thermocouple at noon from the back of the East facing panel to the back of the West facing panel. I also took another data set with one on each panel.
a black backing of a solar panel actually cools them off better because they are a better black body emitter when not in direct sunlight. this is one of those thermodynamic things that is misunderstood by most people on youtube for now.
@ProjectsWithDave I have an idea if you want to try it yourself I'd be interested in the outcome. Put the East/West vertical panels on a mount so that through the day they swivel, starting out vertical East, being flat at midday till they are vertical West in the afternoon. Just a thought.
Question, if a fan could pass cooling air over the surface of the panel, it would use some of the panel power output but it should also raise the power output, worth doing?
Great video! And I really appreciate the analysis. Planning to go with your recommended Sungold bifacial 460 watt panels. I haven't looked yet, but I assume its 0.22 per watt per pallet of 36 panels? Definitely it must be ground mount but I want it low - not more than 2 panels high for easy maintenance and not shade the neighbors yard. What microinverters do you recommend for these panels? And what racking? Must be inexpensive and DIY friendly as I can't get tractors or other equipment into the area but must still pass city inspection.
I really like your videos. That said, I'd say most of us who are watching this and are serious about an alternative means of energy had already invested in solar equipment when it was a lot more expensive. I use my solar capability if I have an extended outage or in the event of a grid issue. Otherwise my grid power is affordable for me right now. I have cheap (cheaper now) panels that produce power. I have some power boxes that still use the old external brick charger. I already have batteries that have been greatly improved over the years. However when I plug my frig in it works. I for one could not replace my equipment with these more efficient models. The only exception for me would be upgrading from flooded or AGM to lithium batteries. Maybe I need a Utube channel? :). Were you able to sell off the panels you replaced? So in my opinion those of us who took the advice back in the day and got prepped are stuck with what we already have. Maybe not the most efficient, but it works for me the way I use it. But in any case thanks for the effort in making this video.
Hi Dave! Using a radiator and water coiling do seem too complex for what you get out of them, but what about air cooling them with fans blowing into the back of the panels? It's not especially complicated and pretty easy to replace a broken fan. I feel like I've seen another channel briefly cover them, but I don't recall how improved the output was. Might be worth looking into for the angled panels!
I suspect it would be helpful, but I think even the slightest breeze would be more productive than fans. Maybe it would be worth while on very hot days? It would be an interesting experiment. Playing off your idea, I think it might be more beneficial for a roof mounted array. You could detect when temperatures were very high and turn on some ducting system. Or even better, find a way to naturally duct more air under the panels for better passive cooling.
Hmmm.... Me too. I don't think I could make a whole video on that, but maybe add it to another one for those of us who need more than theories. I need to get a device for logging wind speed and direction: amzn.to/3PgBNob Then collect wind speed, wind direction, temperature, power output and irradiance for a couple of months. I'll put it on the list, can't promise I will get to it.
@@ProjectsWithDave Great. Just a flag in the ground to show where the wind is coming from could convince me that wind from the right direction will cool the panels significantly, while wind from the wrong direction won't. I don't say a detailed in-depth analysis with all those factors over a longer period wouldn't be interesting, but not necessary to support the hypothesis.
Lots of great data. I'm curious about data for bi-facial panels mounted on roofs with asphalt shingles - dark versus light. Most people have dark shingles. Are any of your bi-facial panels mounted on white/light-colored shingles?
I do wonder if the difference in temp between the bifacial panels and the monofacial might be impacted by their position. The top row might run hotter because it's getting the heat rolling up from the bottom row... but it might also be cooler because it's probably seeing more wind?
That's a good question, my data would not have compensated for it on the main array testing. I think there was enough air movement to negate the majority of that effect, but I'm sure it's not zero.
I'm going to install my panels on a standing seam metal roof. I'm wondering if I got some low to medium speed fans to blow air under the panels if it would be a net positive, particularly in the summer. Maybe you could test power output in a similar setup to see if it has a chance of being net positive? Unfortunately, I think my setup with the particular roof clips are only going to allow ~4" of air gap and also many panels (probably two sets of 5 panels mounted vertically along the 40+ feet up my roof). If you don't get around to testing it, I might do it myself since my array will be perfect to show some high quality results (100 panels, all enphase microinverters). It will probably do 40+kw in the summer, so 1 degree C reduction would be 130W increase in power output, which seems like an achievable metric. 650 extra watts with a 5 deg C reduction.... Realistically maybe $50/year of value, so this is probably going to be more academic than economically driven.
As you stated, it is likely an academic exercise. I think the volume of air you would need to move to see a benefit would be significant. But it would be interesting to see the results.
Dave, do you think it would be worthwhile to use some fans under roof mounted panels to cool them a bit, or would you waste too much power to be worth it? I'm thinking something like a wide squirrel cage fan at the lower edge of the roof. One or two panels wide maybe. Just a thought.
I suspect it would be helpful, but fans use a lot of energy. Maybe it would be worth while on very hot days? It would be an interesting experiment You could detect when temperatures were very high and turn on some ducting system then compare the total system efficiency including fan power. Playing off your idea, it might be better to find a way to naturally duct more air under the panels for better passive cooling.
I’m getting ready to build a new system. The increase production of ground mount over roof means likely ground for me. Vertical vs 25% tilt being basically the same I’ll angle them I suppose. Eg4 flexboss21 and gridboss already ordered. Will wait to order the eg4 indoor batteries. Do u have a good DIY yourself racking system. I’ll likely have 30 panels or so. Thinking of a Hyperion 400w bi facial panel. $100 at signature solar. Why are these so much cheaper than other bi facials ? Any thoughts
based on my limited experience with solar I can already guaranty you that you will experience some wild energy production swings with the north south vertical solar panels depending on the time of year, so be sure to gather at least 12 months worth of data before drawing any conclusions on that array.
That's why it takes me so long to deliver results. However, I may bring something sooner for those interested in improve winter performance. That is where they will be the most beneficial.
Hi Love you videos. Just wondering if you have tested the LONGi Hi-MO 6 Explorer against Bifacial. Or any thought about there performance in low light comparted to bifacial.
Would you concur that if you have only the ability to mount bi-facial solar panels on sloped roof, have said roof coated in a light reflecting finish would improve output (A) on days of low light levels and (B) reduce localised excess heat generation which would effectively 'overheat' panels and reduce there efficiency.
I have a question , if reflector placed below the panel than it will produce more energy as shown in one of your videos but rising temperature reduces efficiency like I live I a place with peak summer temperature 40°C and I want to place reflector below the panel is it going to improve efficiency or the rising temperature of panel due to reflector gonna decrease the efficiency
Bottom line to mitigate the infinite variables affecting solar panels you need more panels. Today’s measurement of performance on an array may be totally different the very next day. Just like the saying went in JAWS, “you’re going to need a bigger array “
I was hoping that this video would provide a definitive answer, or at least particular local conditions, where vertical mount panels would be preferable or not to ground mount. I think you're just presenting too much data and not enough clarity. Ultimately the answer ought to be fairly simple: All else being equal, which configuration produces more power? It seems like your previous videos hinted at the answer. If you can surround your vertical mount panels with something like white reflective gravel spread out over the ground, that might be the most cost-effective power producer. Another interesting possibility would be a mixed system where some panels are on angled racks and some are vertical, with or without the white gravel field. Of course one's particular conditions may dictate a different set of options. If your only choices happen to be a rooftop or a vertical fence, then which would be the greater power producer and more cost-effective option? Would love to see answers to these questions.
5:18 I laughed when I realized that the panel temperature was closely correlated with the panel output. It seems obvious now since the sun causes both.
Yea, I don't know what I expected, but when I first plotted the data I was amazed at how closely it correlated. I think I expected some thermal mass delay but it matches almost to the second.
LTT solutions are only viable for those who at not paying for that solution themselves. Thanks for all the data. That is actually helpful understanding the trade-offs. And you focus on the key metric, total production.
Thanks! The engineer in me would loves to optimize everything but it isn't always practical. For instance, I've always wanted to make a system for collecting heat from the hot water running down the shower drain to pre-heat the cold water filling the hot water tank. Unfortunately, I don't think that project would ever pay for itself.
@@ProjectsWithDave Too much heat would be lost between mixing the hot and cold water, water through the air as you shower, then as the "gray water" enters the drain. Not to mention clogging the heat exchanger with hair, dead skin cells and soap scum. Those are the items that come to mind off the top of my Electronics/Broadcast engineering mind.
Get UV light resistant glass to cover the panels which would reduce the heat and also proteect the panel when there is a hail storm. Though that might cost alot for the glass.(good for limited space and hail concerns.)
We already have this data, have products ready to launch for this. Here is thermal imaging solar including over water. ua-cam.com/video/2RMarcOMVTA/v-deo.htmlsi=0z88y-TvBMnji785
I don't think dunking on Celsius vs Fahrenheit is the flex you think it is... Unlike basically every other Imperial Unit, Fahrenheit is also base 10, so there really isn't any inherent advantage to Celsius over Fahrenheit. If anything, for these types of everyday outdoor measurements, the lower 0 point of Fahrenheit probably gives it an advantage so you have less potential for negative values, which could complicate things. You should advocate for measurements in Kelvin, instead (or the Imperial equivalent, Rankine).
@@yaash4123imo Fahrenheit is easy to remember, 0 it's very cold and 100 it's very hot. Fahrenheit for measuring for humans, Celsius for measuring for water, Kelvin from measuring the universe
@@sprockkets My thermostat uses integer degrees for Fahrenheit and 0.5 degree increments for Centigrade. I'm really old and used Fahrenheit exclusively until high school Physics happened then I became bi-unitable. Still fluent in both but absolutely mis-trust anyone who engineers anything using Imperial measurements! Back in the 70s both Canada and USA went metric. Road speed and distance signs in both countries changed to show both units to ease the transition. There was backlash on both sides of the 49th but Canada (Pierre Trudeau) stuck with it. Meanwhile in the USA, big business and exceptionalism won the day and the signs went back to Imperial after just a few months.
This data took a lot of time to collect and analyze. Hopefully It's helpful for you!
Find Bifacial Solar Panel sources and discounts on my website: projectswithdave.com/solar-panels/
EVERYDAYDAVE Discount Link fort Signature Solar Panels: signaturesolar.com/all-products/solar-panels/?ref=SALE
SunGold Power Bifacial Solar Panels Affiliate Link: sungoldpower.com/collections/bifacial-solar-panels?ref=Projects%20With%20Everyday%20Dave
Vertical Bifacial Solar Panel Performance Results Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/5AVO1IyfA9M/v-deo.html
Vertical Solar Panel With Reflector Results Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/xD1MT-ek05w/v-deo.html
Dave, I haven’t used it, but I know that Microsoft Copilot could probably choose through your data and spit out all kinds of charts already. Give it a try and reply back if it’s helped you. I think Google Gemini could do the same thing possibly
Chew through the data
Actually I was thinking of South facing Winter Angle. Method #2 on Renogy webpage seasonal orientations. ( For winter: Optimal Tilt Angle = 42° x 0.9 + 29° = 66.8° ).
42° is the Latitude used.
But I would love to see the results of this current test also
Wow, Dave. That was a lot of info to absorb. I'm going to have to watch this one a few more times. Thanks for putting all this together and sharing.
Easier for you to absorb when 77 degrees freedom units or lower.
I've been wanting to expand a farm system with a fence of vertical panels that will be tied into an existing inverter but wasn't sure how the peaks would line up with the existing panels, and your work has been an excellent resource for me. THANK YOU!
Glad the data was helpful. I hope it helps you optimize your system!
Great video! I live in the Arizona desert, west of the Phoenix metro. During summer, turbulent desert winds force distributed airflow, so leaving a few inches of space helps a bunch. Here, we can also lose an easy 16%, due to dust and film buildup. Oddly, derating for high heat, dust, wire loss, and other losses seems to always end up in the narrow range of about 46% to 49%, so doubling the number of panels works out. So, most people calculate what they need productivity, then double that for the design panel capacity. Also, I have some vertical panels in an east/west configuration, which extends my solar day enough to reduce need for battery capacity.
Thanks for the Super Thanks and the detailed info on your actual situation.
Even though all this tech info is over my head, I really like your videos. I am subscribed, liking each video I watch, and black belled. One thing I really like about your video, is you wait until way into video before asking people to like it. I hate going through 2 minutes of ads and asks before videos get going good. thanks Edit: So, since I can't get a handle on this info with my bad memory, I will wait for my TSLA robot to learn your video by watching and do it for me when I get it. lol
At the risk of being redundant… your content is greatly appreciated. Thank you for being so polished and informative. I hope you’re well compensated for the obvious work you put into your videos.
Here in Ontario Canada installed south east vertical panels. Major goal is to have low sun snow free panels, when there is winter sun they are my major solar source as the slopped ones are covered in snow.
I think that's a great strategy. Matching your needs with the best solution for your environment.
Dave, I watched the entire video, at normal speed. I didn't fully understand everything you said, but you presented it very well. I'm doing research on getting solar panels for our new house that I had built and we moved into a year ago (Nov). It's an Insulated Concrete Form (ICF) home, so very energy efficient. I had it prepped for solar and I have a Bluetti AC500 and two AC300 batteries that I use in my 5th wheel installed in the home, and used as a UPS for my freezers, frig, and gas furnace (fan). I've hooked up my 420 W portable solar panels to it and it worked flawlessly. I've also got the house wired for a 30A generator. I had the wiring to the Bluetti set up so I can use it as the primary power source for my "critical loads" (freezers, frig and furnace), but also be powered by the grid, or the generator if the grid was down and I was relying on solar or generator power.
So... this is why I'm looking into putting up a ground based solar array, to provide more power to charge my batteries (now they only provide enough power for about 3 hrs during peak sun) fully, use them during the night, and provide power and recharge the batteries during the next day. If the day is cloudy, the grid would then take over and provide the power needed (the Bluetti has a setting for this).
What I gleaned from your research is
1 - Ground mount solar panels
2 - Use bifacial panels
3 - Orient the panels south
Did I get right?
BTW, love your channel and have been a subscriber for a while now. Hope you make it to 100k.
Thanks for the sub! Yes, you got it right. You could go even further and put white rock under the array to improve the reflection if it doesn't cost too much extra. Use PVwatts: pvwatts.nrel.gov/
To determine the tilt angle that will give you the most power during the time of year when you need it the most.
There are one or two points I like to add. When you primarily want to charge your battery, orient them south makes most sense. When you choose an angle of about 30 degree, you''ll have the most yield in summer time when there is a lot of sun anyway. When you put them up steeper, you'll have, compared to 30 degree more yield in winter. Depending on how many panels you will have, it could make sense to have a support that you can change. When you orient panels west or east, you'll have more yield when most people consume most of their power - before leaving to or after returning from work.
Now, this is the content I open UA-cam for!
GREAT STUFF...LOVE IT!
We all need somebody like your son Jordan. Great job! 👏👍👏
Fantastic video! Haha love that "Everyday Dave" has turned into "Data Dave" and "Science Dave". Keep up the good work and your data is much appreciated. Greetings from Norway :)
I appreciate there's actually someone out there more picky about data collection and experimentation than I am.
I wonder if it would make sense to put an IR filter on some of the panels. I imagine most panels can't make use of IR at all, but IR is what generates the most heat.
nah a good amount of solar panel power generation comes from IR wavelengths. this is why putting a solar panel inside a window cuts its generation by about half. glass blocks most IR and UV but lets visible light only through
Great analysis!
Thanks, i love this channel 🎉
Thanks for sharing this series for the upright panels. Happy New Year 🎆
You're welcome! Happy New Year!
I liked for future Dave
I'm glad he has the data so I can just learn from him😂 he def has the data. I'm inclined to trust this man
Amazing analysis. Love it!
Dave, looks like good stuff! Be sure to research winegrape vineyards there are theories about north south vs east west trellising systems. Grapevines are very much a solar design project!
Very interesting! I didn't realize there was a strategy for grapevine trellising. I'll have to check into that.
For Engineers only, lol. i don't know a coefficient from a you-know-what! STEM dummy here and got lost after a couple of minutes but i gave you a thumbs up anyway for effort :)
Most excellent Dave! Appreciate the work. Been waiting for the vertical results as its the configuration that works best for my property. Looking forward to the N-S results.
I'm glad you found the data helpful.
Love the content of your videos. Happy New Year to you and your family.
Thanks! Happy New Year to you, too!
You did some good work there Dave with all that data collection. The data reveals what common sense thinking assumes, but you have taken the guess work and what if...out of the equation.
I'm glad you found the data useful.
18:08 "the ultimate in efficiency" sounded like "the ultimate inefficiency", pun intended? Haha
😂 As an engineer I can appreciate the objective to optimize everything, but it isn't always practical.
My new 3.3kw vertical array with snow and clear sky, 4180W at 2C before the mppt overloads, I had to shade the array with a stick keep it at 3kw. Same array at summer solstice with no white rock 1800W.
Great video Dave, I did see a video of a water cooled ground array where the guy mounted a rain gutter along the bottom of the solar panels to catch the water and it emptied into a insulated cooler which had a small solar driven water pump (like for a bird fountain) to send the water back up to the top of the array where he had a pvc tube with tiny holes in it to drizzle the water over the solar panels. It was effective also, I believe if memory serves that he lives in Arizona and it lowered his solar panel temps by about 20-30 F. Happy New Year to you and all here ! ✨🎉🎊
That's an interesting solution. I wonder how hot the water gets? Maybe it's not that important since evaporative cooling would be significant in this case. I still don't like the idea of constantly flooding everything with water.
I woke up just before you asked for the thumbs up :)
😂
Nice! I would say the black panels absorb at least 20% more heat than the bifacial panels. That's because the bifacials convert 20% of the energy reflected onto them directly into electricity, so there will be that much less heating.
One thing to point out- when discussing Delta T, you would not add in 32 when converting from degrees C to degrees F. Zero delta is zero, whether it's C or F.
Nice info, thank you Dave. I tend to think that the configurations of the panels for the sake of heat management has a direct effect on the longevity of the panels, extending their service life.
When you say "string inverters", there were some panels manufactured with microinveters on each string within the individual panels. These panels were excellent on dealing with shading and had a sizable increase in year to year efficiency. Unfortunately due to the grid tie market rule changes, there were issues with automated disconnects during power outages. Grid tie trends typically control the market when it comes to panels.
I suspect the vertical panels will last longer. They see lower peak temperatures and avoid the most intense radiation during the day. But, maybe lifetime production is the same?
When you suggested I subscribe, I went to do it, but was surprised to find I already had. This is significant: this means you don’t over-upload like most do. Thank you for that.
I guess that's the natural result of long term data collection and analysis. : )
always good info.
THANKS Dave. Great work!
I'm glad you found it helpful!
bravo sir!
When you get to trying some of your temperature tests on roof mounted array, perhaps consider a black/dark roof and a white painted roof - this alone makes
The hard part is getting back to back data for a reliable comparison. I have to think about how to get a valid result. Maybe sliding something white behind a portion of the array on a dark roof.....
Brilliant piece of analysis. I have Bi facial panels mounted horizontally, 4 inches above my RV (motorhome) roof and wondered if it was better to have my roof painted silver, to help bounce light back to the Bi facials or painted black, such that the RV itself absorps the heat, rather than the heat being bounced back and adsorbed by the panels? Great work anyways and i look forwards to your future experimentation.
You should have the best result with a reflective surface. You can see some similar results from this video I did with bifacial panels on a white roof: ua-cam.com/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/v-deo.html
For the difference of temperature between vertical and inclined panels maybe is the natural convection (chimney effect) made by the curvature and temperature of the panel. Vertical panel has always less exposition to the solar radiation, it doesn't reach the maximum irradition, so it has less temperature.
But with vertical bifacial panels you can extend the timing of production.
Good data too, thank you.
i´m planning to install an hybrid panel setup to my roof with water cooled and standard monocrystalline panels. because I have a little problem with space.
What water cooling system are you using?
Amazing testing, thanks for all the hard work! Depending on the size of the setup, vertical panels (in addition to some standard angled ones) might make more sense than going with only bifacials in the optimal angle. I'd rather have 2 bifacial in optimal angle, than 1 vertical and 1 in optimal angle. But some people and use cases might only allow for vertical panels. Basically, as long as one has money and space, fill everything with more panels!
There may be an optimal application for each type of panel, but the possible combinations are endless...
Water heating piping should be incorporated into solar panels in high solar strength locations, like Socal and Mexico. The heating loop can be plumbed into the water storage tank and have a thermostat circulating pump controller
I'm sure warmer climates can more easily make sense of that strategy.
where is the LOVe button/// nice video and so many ideas of it
You should do simple tests with mylar blankets under the open bifacial panels mounted with an angle. These are very cheap ways to improve solar incidence over the panels.
I plan to do some more reflection testing in the future.
I've never plotted it out but I can tell on back to back days where the day that is cooler results in greater output...
It's very noticeable for me on the rare cold clear sunny winter days.
Great research, but at the end all that matters is how much is the cost per watt.
Great real world data about bi-facial vs standard PV panel temp coefficient effects!
My system is on my RV. Only had space for 6 * 340 Watt panels.
Solar Panel used: Canadian Solar CS1H-340MS, 340 Watt shingled Mono-PERC
I wanted to use Bi-facial but couldn't find any in the form factor that worked on my roof leaving a 14" gap for a walkway, ventilation and a little sunroof in the ACs old spot.
PV dimensions: 992mm X 1700mm (39" X 67")
AC/heat is now a split system heat pump so no big box to install around and shade the PVs.
Before install, the roof was decluttered and refinished with white silicon "Paint" to prevent heat buildup under the panels.
The panels are about 6 inches US units (Or 152.4 mm International units..🥸) above the roof and angled up towards the RV centerline to help with convective and wind assisted hot air removal. Snow is encouraged to take the downhill exits off the sides of the roof.
During testing, with RV parked in it's N-S orientation, the PVs are horizontal along the RV's N->S length and slightly angled upward from the RV walls towards it's centerline.
These small E-W angles actually makes a noticeable difference in power generation as the sun moves E->W thru the day. I have 2 MPPT controllers, each handling 3 PVs in series on the E and W side of the RV. On warm days with full sun I was seeing upwards of 80% of advertised power generation, about 1500+ Watts.
Before the RV install, around Spring equinox (Colder, more direct Sun), I had bench tested a single 3 PV series connected array on my low pitch garage roof.
The power generation, with about a 15 degree south facing orientation was more than the rated 340 Watts. Expected max was 1020 watts @ 25 C (77 F), at about 5 deg C (40 deg F) observed max was as high as 1250+ watts. I was elated with this intermittent but repeatable result.
On the RV system, on a hot day with full sun, when AC is desired (From 300 to 1000 watts for AC) the solar can cover that while putting more than 500 W into the battery .
Now I need to find a 12 or (preferably) 48 volt conversion for my watt gobbling pig of a refrigerator (300W 24/7 @ 120v)! Another 48v 100 Amp hour battery will be added as well to cover those cloudy days.
Thank you and Happy New Years!
we need the new test at the dead of the winter.
Hey, for what it's worth, Linus mentioned the Solar/Thermal panels in the most recent livestream WAN show (1 hour & 2 minutes in), and said they need to be replumbed since he forgot to add anti-freeze (ethylene glycol) before the winter freeze last year. solar PV still works, but no thermal benefits now.
In his first install he said he planned to drain it for the winter so he didn't have to use glycol. Maybe he decided that wasn't practical. The cost of having to go back and work on the system will likely negate the benefit for the next 20 years.
@@ProjectsWithDave Hopefully it's just the plumbing, and not the heat exchangers on the panels too. I'd love to see the production numbers for his panels. I don't think I've heard any hard numbers, but it wasn't exactly a large system to begin with.
Don’t worry. I don’t sleep on infos like this.
Does anyone remember The Red Green Show? I hear that guys voice when Dave talks. I’d kick in a few bucks just to hear him say, “If they don’t find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!”😂
I'll consider working that in somewhere... 😂
Great video thank you. I'm still not sure on bifacial as the underneath would be shaded in normal mounting? If the face of a normal panel was that shaded then the output would be very low or with no output at all. So bifacials would have to be mounted differently. Vertically be a bit of a wind trap.
temp data was skewed for the vertical panels bc during half of the day the thermal sensor was in direct sunlight.
but the data was awesome, not trying to detract from that. appreciate the depth of info youve put out
I moved the thermocouple at noon from the back of the East facing panel to the back of the West facing panel. I also took another data set with one on each panel.
a black backing of a solar panel actually cools them off better because they are a better black body emitter when not in direct sunlight. this is one of those thermodynamic things that is misunderstood by most people on youtube for now.
Why do you think my data shows them running significantly hotter?
My guess is that if they were roof mounted, the black would irradiate more efficiently to the below roof materials compared to a white back.
I suspect roof mounted will show different results because there is dramatically less back side solar input. I'll have to think of a way to test that.
@@ProjectsWithDave Because the effect works both ways. Black surfaces are also better at absorbing radiation.
@ProjectsWithDave
I have an idea if you want to try it yourself I'd be interested in the outcome. Put the East/West vertical panels on a mount so that through the day they swivel, starting out vertical East, being flat at midday till they are vertical West in the afternoon. Just a thought.
That would work well if you had a row that was only 2 panels. Much more than that would be difficult to turn.
Question, if a fan could pass cooling air over the surface of the panel, it would use some of the panel power output but it should also raise the power output, worth doing?
Cool stuff ! Man half those black-back panels are screaming for a thin coat of white paint 😛
That would probably improve their performance.
Great video! And I really appreciate the analysis. Planning to go with your recommended Sungold bifacial 460 watt panels. I haven't looked yet, but I assume its 0.22 per watt per pallet of 36 panels? Definitely it must be ground mount but I want it low - not more than 2 panels high for easy maintenance and not shade the neighbors yard. What microinverters do you recommend for these panels? And what racking? Must be inexpensive and DIY friendly as I can't get tractors or other equipment into the area but must still pass city inspection.
Thx u
I really like your videos. That said, I'd say most of us who are watching this and are serious about an alternative means of energy had already invested in solar equipment when it was a lot more expensive. I use my solar capability if I have an extended outage or in the event of a grid issue. Otherwise my grid power is affordable for me right now. I have cheap (cheaper now) panels that produce power. I have some power boxes that still use the old external brick charger. I already have batteries that have been greatly improved over the years. However when I plug my frig in it works. I for one could not replace my equipment with these more efficient models. The only exception for me would be upgrading from flooded or AGM to lithium batteries. Maybe I need a Utube channel? :). Were you able to sell off the panels you replaced? So in my opinion those of us who took the advice back in the day and got prepped are stuck with what we already have. Maybe not the most efficient, but it works for me the way I use it. But in any case thanks for the effort in making this video.
Thanks for the feedback. I haven't sold any panels. I just keep redistributing them to new locations : )
Finally some Celsius c for the winn
Hi Dave! Using a radiator and water coiling do seem too complex for what you get out of them, but what about air cooling them with fans blowing into the back of the panels? It's not especially complicated and pretty easy to replace a broken fan. I feel like I've seen another channel briefly cover them, but I don't recall how improved the output was.
Might be worth looking into for the angled panels!
I suspect it would be helpful, but I think even the slightest breeze would be more productive than fans. Maybe it would be worth while on very hot days? It would be an interesting experiment. Playing off your idea, I think it might be more beneficial for a roof mounted array. You could detect when temperatures were very high and turn on some ducting system. Or even better, find a way to naturally duct more air under the panels for better passive cooling.
Would the east west vertical panels work better if you turn them on there side and move them to top of vertical rack?
I would like to see that hypothesis that the wind direction was causing the vertical panels to be hotter tested.
Hmmm.... Me too. I don't think I could make a whole video on that, but maybe add it to another one for those of us who need more than theories.
I need to get a device for logging wind speed and direction: amzn.to/3PgBNob
Then collect wind speed, wind direction, temperature, power output and irradiance for a couple of months.
I'll put it on the list, can't promise I will get to it.
@@ProjectsWithDave Great. Just a flag in the ground to show where the wind is coming from could convince me that wind from the right direction will cool the panels significantly, while wind from the wrong direction won't. I don't say a detailed in-depth analysis with all those factors over a longer period wouldn't be interesting, but not necessary to support the hypothesis.
Lots of great data. I'm curious about data for bi-facial panels mounted on roofs with asphalt shingles - dark versus light. Most people have dark shingles. Are any of your bi-facial panels mounted on white/light-colored shingles?
Yes, I did an analysis with bifacials on a white roof in this video: ua-cam.com/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/v-deo.html
I do wonder if the difference in temp between the bifacial panels and the monofacial might be impacted by their position. The top row might run hotter because it's getting the heat rolling up from the bottom row... but it might also be cooler because it's probably seeing more wind?
That's a good question, my data would not have compensated for it on the main array testing. I think there was enough air movement to negate the majority of that effect, but I'm sure it's not zero.
I'm going to install my panels on a standing seam metal roof. I'm wondering if I got some low to medium speed fans to blow air under the panels if it would be a net positive, particularly in the summer. Maybe you could test power output in a similar setup to see if it has a chance of being net positive? Unfortunately, I think my setup with the particular roof clips are only going to allow ~4" of air gap and also many panels (probably two sets of 5 panels mounted vertically along the 40+ feet up my roof).
If you don't get around to testing it, I might do it myself since my array will be perfect to show some high quality results (100 panels, all enphase microinverters). It will probably do 40+kw in the summer, so 1 degree C reduction would be 130W increase in power output, which seems like an achievable metric. 650 extra watts with a 5 deg C reduction.... Realistically maybe $50/year of value, so this is probably going to be more academic than economically driven.
As you stated, it is likely an academic exercise. I think the volume of air you would need to move to see a benefit would be significant. But it would be interesting to see the results.
Dave, do you think it would be worthwhile to use some fans under roof mounted panels to cool them a bit, or would you waste too much power to be worth it? I'm thinking something like a wide squirrel cage fan at the lower edge of the roof. One or two panels wide maybe. Just a thought.
I suspect it would be helpful, but fans use a lot of energy. Maybe it would be worth while on very hot days? It would be an interesting experiment You could detect when temperatures were very high and turn on some ducting system then compare the total system efficiency including fan power. Playing off your idea, it might be better to find a way to naturally duct more air under the panels for better passive cooling.
does not have option for thumb up, only thumb down ?
Lov it
I wonder if the heat from bottom edge of the vertical panels warms the middle and top edge as it is shed and it rises up over the panel?
Yes, but it should escape faster than the tilted panels.
I’m getting ready to build a new system. The increase production of ground mount over roof means likely ground for me. Vertical vs 25% tilt being basically the same I’ll angle them I suppose. Eg4 flexboss21 and gridboss already ordered. Will wait to order the eg4 indoor batteries. Do u have a good DIY yourself racking system. I’ll likely have 30 panels or so. Thinking of a Hyperion 400w bi facial panel. $100 at signature solar. Why are these so much cheaper than other bi facials ? Any thoughts
based on my limited experience with solar I can already guaranty you that you will experience some wild energy production swings with the north south vertical solar panels depending on the time of year, so be sure to gather at least 12 months worth of data before drawing any conclusions on that array.
That's why it takes me so long to deliver results. However, I may bring something sooner for those interested in improve winter performance. That is where they will be the most beneficial.
Hi Love you videos. Just wondering if you have tested the LONGi Hi-MO 6 Explorer against Bifacial. Or any thought about there performance in low light comparted to bifacial.
I have not tested that specific panel.
Would you concur that if you have only the ability to mount bi-facial solar panels on sloped roof, have said roof coated in a light reflecting finish would improve output (A) on days of low light levels and (B) reduce localised excess heat generation which would effectively 'overheat' panels and reduce there efficiency.
A white roof would be a benefit. I have some results on that in this video: ua-cam.com/video/mzqjCsZKUYQ/v-deo.html
I have a question , if reflector placed below the panel than it will produce more energy as shown in one of your videos but rising temperature reduces efficiency like I live I a place with peak summer temperature 40°C and I want to place reflector below the panel is it going to improve efficiency or the rising temperature of panel due to reflector gonna decrease the efficiency
The efficiency will decrease, but you will still see an increase in power. The reflection effect is greater than the temperature effect.
Solar water cooled panels for domestic hot water - is that a thing?
yes
Bottom line to mitigate the infinite variables affecting solar panels you need more panels. Today’s measurement of performance on an array may be totally different the very next day. Just like the saying went in JAWS, “you’re going to need a bigger array “
Doing this for years
I was hoping that this video would provide a definitive answer, or at least particular local conditions, where vertical mount panels would be preferable or not to ground mount. I think you're just presenting too much data and not enough clarity. Ultimately the answer ought to be fairly simple: All else being equal, which configuration produces more power? It seems like your previous videos hinted at the answer. If you can surround your vertical mount panels with something like white reflective gravel spread out over the ground, that might be the most cost-effective power producer. Another interesting possibility would be a mixed system where some panels are on angled racks and some are vertical, with or without the white gravel field. Of course one's particular conditions may dictate a different set of options. If your only choices happen to be a rooftop or a vertical fence, then which would be the greater power producer and more cost-effective option? Would love to see answers to these questions.
5:18 I laughed when I realized that the panel temperature was closely correlated with the panel output. It seems obvious now since the sun causes both.
Yea, I don't know what I expected, but when I first plotted the data I was amazed at how closely it correlated. I think I expected some thermal mass delay but it matches almost to the second.
So why don't they have heat syncs and fans
Because it's not worth the effort. You may gain a few percent more power but it will cost much more and adds complexity.
@TheFreezeChill that makes sense then
@TheFreezeChill As solar technology advances this could be worked out through more innovative design
@@mrw1160 Yes in theory it could. But if you gain e.g. 5% produced energy for double the cost, noone will buy your "innovative" product.
LTT solutions are only viable for those who at not paying for that solution themselves.
Thanks for all the data. That is actually helpful understanding the trade-offs. And you focus on the key metric, total production.
Thanks! The engineer in me would loves to optimize everything but it isn't always practical. For instance, I've always wanted to make a system for collecting heat from the hot water running down the shower drain to pre-heat the cold water filling the hot water tank. Unfortunately, I don't think that project would ever pay for itself.
@@ProjectsWithDave Too much heat would be lost between mixing the hot and cold water, water through the air as you shower, then as the "gray water" enters the drain. Not to mention clogging the heat exchanger with hair, dead skin cells and soap scum.
Those are the items that come to mind off the top of my Electronics/Broadcast engineering mind.
Get UV light resistant glass to cover the panels which would reduce the heat and also proteect the panel when there is a hail storm. Though that might cost alot for the glass.(good for limited space and hail concerns.)
👍🏼
Swamcooler microwave nature gen vtoman opus jackery senix bluetti jacker ancrage ecoflow biracial monfacial review
What the heck is a Celsius?
It’s called metric, get over it.
Hey Rumpelstiltskin , wake up and smell the Metric! 🌞
100 likes in 1hr🎉
We already have this data, have products ready to launch for this. Here is thermal imaging solar including over water. ua-cam.com/video/2RMarcOMVTA/v-deo.htmlsi=0z88y-TvBMnji785
Only in America could we make a grievance out of a metric unit for measuring temperature. Freedom units indeed.
I don't think dunking on Celsius vs Fahrenheit is the flex you think it is... Unlike basically every other Imperial Unit, Fahrenheit is also base 10, so there really isn't any inherent advantage to Celsius over Fahrenheit. If anything, for these types of everyday outdoor measurements, the lower 0 point of Fahrenheit probably gives it an advantage so you have less potential for negative values, which could complicate things. You should advocate for measurements in Kelvin, instead (or the Imperial equivalent, Rankine).
Fahrenheit was made so that we wouldn't need fractions for temps either. I really think Celsius is dumb, esp for setting room temps.
Celsius is fine. 0 is freezing, which is easier than remembering 32 degrees, and most other stuff is relative just like with fahrenheit.
@@yaash4123imo Fahrenheit is easy to remember, 0 it's very cold and 100 it's very hot. Fahrenheit for measuring for humans, Celsius for measuring for water, Kelvin from measuring the universe
@@sprockkets My thermostat uses integer degrees for Fahrenheit and 0.5 degree increments for Centigrade.
I'm really old and used Fahrenheit exclusively until high school Physics happened then I became bi-unitable. Still fluent in both but absolutely mis-trust anyone who engineers anything using Imperial measurements!
Back in the 70s both Canada and USA went metric. Road speed and distance signs in both countries changed to show both units to ease the transition.
There was backlash on both sides of the 49th but Canada (Pierre Trudeau) stuck with it.
Meanwhile in the USA, big business and exceptionalism won the day and the signs went back to Imperial after just a few months.
Poor people who still use fairyheight.
+
2:40 - ... Imbecile units.