What is Fine Art Photography?
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- Опубліковано 19 січ 2023
- So what is Fine Art Photography? Martin Osner presents an in-depth discussion that explains the difference between photography, art photography and fine art photography.
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You said that you now think of photography in a different way. I don’t think that is accurate. You first mastered the basics in your first pin-wheel illustration (where you looked for all those necessary elements and then made the necessary adjustments) now you proceed more quickly to the second pin-wheel scenario where you are an unencumbered artist (because the first pinwheel tasks are done easily and almost without a lot of consciousness thought). BUT those first necessary tasks/element are still worked out as you proceed more quickly to your task as an artist.. Agree/disagree?
still thinking and enjoying your suggestions on the matter. Now I am thinking this. I don’t think, in my case, that photography is distinct or separate from art. I shoot, or do all those pinwheel phase one things in camera, but my minds eye (artistic vision) is toward the finished, manipulated, photo-shopped, print or painted picture (before I click the shutter). I paint what I shot and manipulated in photoshop so the steam of creativity is continuous. (one depends on and is connected to the other). I see a finished product (either the manipulated photo or a painted picture) as I go looking, and before, I find and shoot the camera. You don’t seem to believe that filters are “brushes” (so to speak) Perhaps you haven’t seen the right photo yet?
WOW so almost $700 for this course, and what do I get for $700? Are you setting me up with a gallery opening, introducing me to clients, teaching me the business of "Fine art Photography" or just taking my money so I can hear you talk about how successful you have become, as you get my $700...........hard pass
My goal is to provide valuable information, regardless of whether someone chooses to enrol in the course or not. Nobody is setting you up for anything. For a detailed breakdown of the course curriculum, please visit our website.
Spot on, subbed. As a former fashion and advertising photographer looking to shed the skin and focus on my art, a very encouraging presentation. You effectively cut out all the noise surrounding the many mysteries surrounding the medium that made me a living for over 20 years, now working towards seeking new horizons in fine art photography. Falling back on my experience and keeping up with the technical change in the medium has been to my advantage. Now is a time to be a photographer and fine art photographer.
Thank you for your comment!!
“Precision is the enemy of creativity”. Last year, I read John Ruskin’s ‘On Art and Life’ and this was his central thesis. This single concept will free you as an artist of any kind, and indeed, as a human navigating life.
Absolutely agree Daniel! John Ruskin's insight in ‘On Art and Life’ is noted. Embracing the idea that "precision is the enemy of creativity" can truly liberate ones artistic approach. It encourages a more spontaneous and authentic approach to art and life as you point out, allowing for greater expression and personal freedom. Many thanks Martin
Thank you Martin for a wonderful tour through photography, art photography and fine art photography. I don't think this is something your can ingest all at once but instead take small bites until you are full; so your videos have given me a starting point. Again, thank you!
You're very welcome! I'm glad to hear that you found the tour through photography, art photography, and fine art photography informative. You're absolutely right; it's a journey that you can savour and explore at your own pace. Thank you for your kind words, and I wish you a wonderful and fulfilling creative journey! Regards Martin
Martin....I'm just coming back to photography after being away for many years. This video has not only given me a new understanding of the craft, but also a new appreciation for oil paintings and fine art photographs when I visit galleries. Thank you.
I'm thrilled to hear that the video has had such a positive impact. Welcome back into photography! Regards Martin
This was my most well spent 45min since a long time. Just this morning I've wrote on UA-cam, that I don't see art. Now, I had a short gleams of it. Even though, I know now, that I'm so far off any kind of Art, it was so beautiful listening to you. Thank you so much.
And what makes it funny too, that I've ended up in good old RSA again, after so many years. And it Hootbaai, where I've eat the fines Calamari at the habour 30 years ago. If I've ever make it to be there again one day, I will visit your gallery. Thank you very much for this awesome explanation.
Thanks Heinz for your comment, looking forward to seeing you at the gallery one day!
What an inciteful and enjoyable discussion! Thank you for sharing it with us.
Glad you enjoyed it Saeed!
I rarely put some commentary on youtube. But right now I feel to do that. To thank you for clarify my feelings about fine art. I am on this road and I know right now that it is a choice I made because I felt this is a way to connect my soul to others. Because for me, fine art photography is about emotion. Thanks again!
You are so welcome! Thank you for your kind words
Thank you very much, Martin.
Clear explanation of fine art photography.
Antoine.
You are more than welcome Toine.
Hello.. My name is Tasos and im from Greece ..
I watch this video/lecture five times so far , and I'm sure I'll see it again in the future.
world class video !
Thank you very much
Hi Tasos, you are more than welcome. I appreciate your encouragement. Just published another video today. Please check out my Chanel. I hope you like. Regards Martin
Thanks MO, I was blessed today in finding your UA-cam channel; I've always struggled with photography and art and the minute i saw your video explaining the differences, I've been given a since of direction in fine art photography. ✌🏽😇
Happy to help! Good luck with your fine art photography. Regards Martin
Thank you, that has sorted that one out with words everyone could understand! Looking at my own collection of pictures I realize I have yet to take a fine art picture, but it will be something to think about the next time I am out with a camera!
Glad I could help Des!
This is an awesome teaching video. This is the best definition of fine art and photography on the internet. Very enlightening. Thank you.
Wow, thank you! I appreciate you vote of confidence. Kind regards Martin
One of the most powerful photography videos I've watched to date. Thank You MO!
Wow, thanks Daniel, I appreciate it.
Just found this... I miss this live but enjoyed your replay :)
Thank you for your insight and encouragement, yes encouragement! I appreciate your explanations and definitions. I’ve been struggling with the whole “genre” question and now after all these years I feel I have direction when I’m shooting. Thank you, Roger Groover, artist with a camera.
Thank you Roger!
What a wonderful lecture you have given. Thank you so much for your time.
You are very welcome!
Wow, Martin I have thoroughly enjoyed your video and how well you articulated the differences of a photographer and a fine art photographer and how it relates to the art world. I considered myself a fine art photographer before watching your video and now I am completely sure that is how I want to be seen. I am very interested!
Glad you enjoyed it Adele. Could you go onto www.artphotographyacademy.com to register and subscribe, this way you will receive information.
Many thanks Martin, for putting together this presentation and valuable explanation. You provide some answers I've been seeking for a long time. Cheers from Thailand!
You are very welcome
Well composed video Martin on a complex idea. I especially loved seeing the processes used by other artists! So Creative.
Thank you so much for your positive feedback! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and found the exploration of other artists' processes creative. It's always inspiring to learn from the techniques and ideas of fellow artists. Your support is greatly appreciated! Kind regards, Martin
Wonderful video - what a fantastic insight into fine art photography. I enjoyed every minute and you have given me a huge boost in my own quest to produce photo art. Thank you. Immediately subscribed and looking forward to seeing more from you
Great to hear! Thank you for your comment
Thank you, this is easily among the best UA-cam videos I've ever seen.
Wow, thanks for your kind words! Be sure to watch the second part of this video >> ua-cam.com/video/1dJvPWTGE5U/v-deo.html
Great video Martin, very thought-provoking but also excellent in helping define an area that I have often wondered about.
Glad it was helpful!
Outstanding presentation! Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for your comment!
What a Beautiful Video!!
You gave the Best Explanation and Illustration of this Topic that I have yet to hear and see. You gave me a clear and direct view of what the differences are and should be. I love this video. Keep up the great work.✔️💯🎉💞
Glad it was helpful!
This is the best and most encompassing talk I’ve ever encountered on the subject. Inspired! Thank you!
Wow, thank you!
What a splendind lecture! These questions have been nagging me for a long time. Cannot thank you enough!!! :)
You're very welcome!
Very insightful, very helpful - I thank you sincerely Mr Osner.
You are very welcome Roger. I am pleased you enjoyed the discussion. Regards Martin
Great MasterClass... Thanks Mr. Osner... regards from Cuba
You are very welcome Ernesto.
Thank you! One of the best videos on photography I’ve ever seen
Wow, thanks! I am so pleased to hear you benefited from this discussion!
Great conversation I have always loved the medium of photography! My camera has taken me all around the world!
Thank you Andre. Great to hear!
It's a difficult thing to wrap your head around as there's always a degree with subjectivity with art. This video has definitely made things clearer and I think my three take-aways on fine art photography are: It needs to have intentionality, it needs to elicit deeper emotions out of the viewer and cause them to pause and think and finally it needs to be something tangible and physical.
I was thinking about Rhein II after I watched this video and at first looking at it on my screen I wasn't very impressed but I imagine I'd feel very differently seeing it in person given it's 73'' x 143'' size. That's not to say size is everything but Gursky clearly understands how to elevate an image to give it more impact. A print of this size is absolutely made with a gallery in mind as there won't be many people out there with the wall space to hang that in their home!
Your insights are spot-on Gregory! Understanding fine art photography can indeed be a subjective journey, but your takeaways encapsulate key elements beautifully. Intentionality, the power to evoke deep emotions, and the tangible, physical presence all contribute to the unique impact of fine art photography.
Rhein II by Gursky is a perfect example of how size and presentation can enhance the experience. Seeing it in person, especially at a staggering 73'' x 143'', can transform the perception. Gursky's mastery in elevating an image for gallery impact is evident. It's a reminder that the context in which we view art can significantly influence our appreciation. Thanks for sharing your reflections, and here's to the ever-evolving journey through the world of fine art photography! KInd Regards Martin
Thank you, that was brilliant conversation and a generous years of experience that you give to young people we appreciated it, thank you again.
Glad you enjoyed it Angel. You're very welcome! I'm glad I could assist and provide valuable information. If you ever have more questions or need assistance in the future, don't hesitate to reach out. Wishing you continued success in your fine art photography journey and any other endeavours you pursue. Again thank you for your kind words! Regards Martin
Great tutorial, Martin. Your insights are really valuable. I'm prepping a talk for our photo community and found inspiration here. Will definitely share this with them. Thanks for the great content. Respect!
Hi Danie! I'm delighted to hear that you found the tutorial valuable, and I appreciate your kind words. I'm honoured that my content could serve as inspiration. Regards Martin
WOW!!! How insightful and I will visit Cape Town soon and hopefully learn something more from you. Thank you so much.
My pleasure Peter, I look forward to hearing from you!
The Most Wonderful Video I Have Seen On You Tube!
Thank you so much!
I needed this to start the next leg of my journey in photography. Thank you.
Glad it was helpful!
Wow speechless, thanks for sharing
Thanks for watching Luis, I appreciate it
Absolutely beautiful breakdown, thank you for sharing your viewpoint.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Awesome lecture, Martin, it resonates ALLOT in my work now!
Glad it was helpful David. Regards Martin
This is quite simply brilliant. Thank you.
Thank You Jean-David!
I'm on my second of two years studying photography full-time, this is one of the best videos I've come across. Thank you
Wow, thanks! I am pleased you found the video of value!
Wow, I wonder where and with whom you studied photography for two years? Obviously not a fine -art photography program which would have taken you 4 years to complete and allowed you to assess how confused and confusing the author’s presentations on fine art photography are ( even some of the historical arguments, including purely technical ones, which are easy to check and to know about without confusion, can be very erroneous in the author’s numerous efforts on the topic). You are in for another experience in future disappointments once you realize this.
Dear Martin, thank you for this great video and the highly interesting topic. The question from Anthony at 34:05 often arises in my head. Your answer to the next question after that implies that manual techniques convey more creativity than Photoshop thus they are more acceptable for the fine art. I agree on that, e.g. I value manually cut out collages higher than digital collages or for the same reason the general public values a painting higher than a photograph, because, more often than not, more hand craftsmanship and invested time of the artist goes into it. BUT: with the same approach we should say that the most important work of Andy Warhol or let’s say Mondrian is neglectable since not a lot of handwork was invested into the execution. In my opinion, this part leads to nowhere. The vision, idea and creativity is the most important decision factor of whether a photograph is fine art or not and not whether Photoshop was used for it (because then again according to this logic we should ask whether canvas and brushes or camera were used). What do you think?
Thank you for your thoughtful message and for engaging with the topic discussed in the video. I appreciate your perspective and the points you've raised regarding the role of manual techniques versus digital tools in the creation of fine art.
You've highlighted an important aspect of the debate surrounding creativity and execution in art. Indeed, the distinction between manual techniques and digital tools can be nuanced and may not always be the sole determinant of an artwork's value or status as fine art. As you rightly pointed out, artists like Andy Warhol and Mondrian challenged traditional notions of craftsmanship by employing methods that may not have required extensive handwork.
The heart of the matter, as you suggest, lies in the vision, idea, and creativity that an artist brings to their work. These elements are indeed pivotal in determining whether a photograph or any artwork qualifies as fine art. While manual techniques can imbue a sense of craftsmanship and time investment, digital tools like Photoshop offer a different avenue for artistic expression. It's not a question of whether one method is superior to the other, but rather how the artist employs their chosen medium to convey their artistic vision.
Digital tools can offer artists greater control and precision, potentially resulting in a more refined final product. However, it's essential to remember that even within digital creation, there's room for unique, unexpected, and innovative outcomes that stem from an artist's creative choices and experimentation.
In essence, the discussion should not be confined to the tools used but should encompass the artistic intention, the message conveyed, and the emotional impact the artwork has on its audience. Fine art is a dynamic realm that evolves with the ever-changing landscape of artistic expression, embracing both traditional and contemporary techniques.
Thank you again for sharing your thoughts.
Best regards,
Martin
Brilliant thank you so much I have a new path now with my photography and I’m thrilled
Wonderful! I ma so glad to hear. Make sure to watch the second part of this video >> ua-cam.com/video/1dJvPWTGE5U/v-deo.html
Great video, Martin I bought my first camera in July 23, a Canon EOS 1300D I'm almost at the point of being able to use it to the maximum of its capabilities. I've also now got two 35mm SLR's a Canon a AV-1 & EF alongside a 35mm Canon Canonet range finder and a 120mm Zeiss Ikon Nettar. Fine art photography is something that I stumbled upon while watching another UA-cam channel and was introduced to Tyler Shields an American photographer whose work has sold for over a million at auction. I love my digital camera however, I would love to use my film cameras for fine artwork, and I'm hoping to learn different techniques on fine art from watching your channel. I like the work of Alexey Titarenko especially his images from City Of Shadows and I believe he used to use some hand embellishing in the darkroom but possibly not to the extent of the images shown in this video. I look forward to learning a lot from you. Happy New Year.
Hi Andrew! Thanks for sharing your photography journey and gear collection. It's fantastic that you've been exploring both digital and film photography, with a diverse set of cameras. It's great to hear that you've discovered fine art photography and are inspired by photographers like Tyler Shields and Alexey Titarenko. Learning different techniques and approaches is a wonderful way to expand your creative horizons, and I'm thrilled that you're looking forward to gaining insights from my channel. Happy new year to you as well! Regards Martin
Thank you for sharing this video I love it !
Absolute pleasure Han, I am pleased you enjoyed it. Rgds Martin
Lovely! Really enjoyed this! Thank you
Im so glad you enjoyed it!
Art Photography is one of the many ways Photography is used. Wedding photography is documentary and artistic. Product photography or Real Estate photography maybe less so, don't know. But all could be artistic without being Fine Art Photography. I have been trying to figure out what I want as a Hobby photographer and decided (with a dollop of Hubris) that I want to make "art" photography, so this discussion is right on target and as good as UA-cam has presented. We hobbyists start with the camera, which is the very best camera and lens? Then, How do I master composition and then perhaps what is Art anyway? I will stick with Birds and Flowers. If it is really art then I think you must start with the "image" and how that represents some unique and Universal idea or emotion that resonates with our humanity in some way. Good video discussion.
Great comment William! Mastering composition is key in all photography. Art is subjective, but it often evokes emotions and tells stories. Keep experimenting and enjoy your artistic journey!
Thank you so much for this great video! I really enjoyed it.
Glad you enjoyed it! Regards Martin
This was a marvelous video! I thoroughly enjoyed it and I appreciate you for making this video. You have my subscription
Awesome, thank you!
Thank you for your time, and clear, smooth, simple but powerful explanations. Also quite encouraging. While "the market" may be quite different for different photographers. Not everybody prefers to be paid by "money", while to continue work, of course, in return of the effort, some resources need to be supplied to the artist somehow. As in the technology world, technology is provided to those who are capable of utilizing it in the best way. So is art. The more successful an artist is, the more resources become available, including social resources. As long as the artist remains alive and capable. Best regards.
He Mete, thanks I am please you enjoyed it.
@@MartinOsner if you ever visit here Istanbul, you're welcome! I owe you a drink. Best regards!
Thanks so much @metebasarbaypinar157 I may very take you up on your offer!
Brilliantly put. Very well.
I am pleased you enjoyed the discussion Bart.
Thank you, Martin!!!!!
Absolute pleasure!
Best I've seen on this subject
Thank you for your comment!
First thank you, very valuable information. The photo by Andrey Gersky reminds me of Anderson`a story "THE Emporer New Cloths".
You are welcome! It is an Interesting point you make!
What a wonderful lecture thank you. I learnt a lot from it.
Thanks for your enchouragement Patrick. I am pleased you enjoyed it. Kind regards Martin
🙏🏻
Nice, fine art is unique❤
Thanks Alejandro. I appreciate it.
Impressive ! Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
Great video. Very different from what is available on UA-cam, what I have seen till now. I have a query, what is expressionism? And how to do photography expressionism?
Thank you for your comment. Expressionism is an art movement that focuses on subjective emotions and personal interpretation. In photography, it can be achieved by capturing subjects in a way that evokes emotions, using lighting, colors, composition, and experimental techniques to convey personal feelings and experiences. I hope this hepls!
Thank you for that. You seem to be working with what is known as an "institutional defitinion of art", i.e., one that says a work is art because art institions, like galleries, say so. I would recommend Arthur Danto's book "Art after the End of Art".
Thank you for your thoughtful comment! I totally understand where you're coming from, and I agree that Arthur Danto's book "Art after the End of Art" raises fascinating speculative ideas about the evolution of contemporary art. For this seminar, however, I need to focus on the present state of the art world, where galleries, art commentators, critics, auction houses, and art fairs continue to wield significant influence in shaping what is considered art. It's crucial to stick to the facts and current realities when presenting the topic. I appreciate your input, and I think the discussion, especially considering the impact of AI on art, is an excellent topic for further exploration. Perhaps we could delve deeper into that in a future discussion. Thanks again for your engagement! Regards Martin
Absolutely incredible, your presentation information, and delivery!! You brought us through the whole of the technical to the reality of having experienced the art itself. Thank you!
I just stumbled on to you today and so delighted to hav found you. Looking forward to so much more.
Also, The GODPLE According To….
Infesting play in that phrase. Any chance it’s out of a Christian context?
Thank you again
Thank you for your encouragement, means a lot. There is more discussions on Its way. God bless🙏🏻
"Fine Art Photography" is, on a personal level, in the eye of the beholder. What society thinks is another matter.
Fine Art Photography" is subjective, dependent on individual perspectives, and even what society views as fine art can vary. Both personal interpretation and societal recognition play crucial roles in defining fine art photography. Thanks for your comment. Regards Martin
An excellent video.
Many thanks! Kind regards Martin
Very enlightening
Many thanks!
12:43 Perfectly said!
Thanks Victor, much appreciated!
These were well presented thoughts on a topic much to dense to completely cover in a forty-minute lecture. One thing that I think causes difficulty in people's minds when thinking about whether a photograph is "just" a photograph, if it's art, or if it's fine art, is that there is no collective agreement on what even qualifies as a photograph to begin with. Is it about materiality or just the use of light? If it's anything done with light then is a Photoshop edited image, a digital painting, or an ai manipulated or even created image a photograph? This was the big debate when digital cameras started to be used.
Most people have now come to the side of agreeing images created using a digital camera are still photography, but there are still some who feel it isn't photography unless you are capturing the light in a stored physical medium such as film or photosensitive plates or chemicals. Now, with so much digital manipulation and with ai alteration and creation, this whole question comes up again.
I think it would benefit photographers, especially art photographers, to remove those blurred lines and draw some harder ones in. Of course in a gallery this is made more clear as you would typically have a gallery label indicating the art piece’s medium and materials used, so you could state if it was a photograph, if it was created using film, printed onto photosensitive paper or from an inkjet printer, and if it was digital art. Based on several of the comments presented in, and from comments on, the video, I think it's clear there is a point of manipulation where most people stop considering something a photograph.
This goes back to the idea that it would benefit photographers to be stricter about how far or with what materials and methods a photograph can be manipulated before it is considered as something else. One isn't better or worse than the other, but different mediums. Pencil, charcoal, watercolor, oil, are all similar tools but all considered different mediums. Pencil and charcoal are applied in a similar way to similar surfaces as various paint mediums but aren't considered the same thing. Just because a camera is used as the starting point for an artistic creation doesn't need to mean the final piece should be called a photograph. So, when you show some of the examples presented in the video, I think there will be a lot of people who balk at the idea of calling them photographs, doing so takes away from the idea that a "real" photograph could be considered fine art (unless as you stated it had some other factor pushing it into that sphere such as being created by someone with celebrity).
All this leads back to the trouble of the assigned labels of "fine art photograph", "fine art photography", and "fine art photographer" when presenting artwork that may have started as a photograph but has been heavily manipulated into something else. Are you a photographer creating fine art or a fine artist using a camera as part of their process of art creation. In my mind they are two very different things even if the end creation from both is fine art. Again, one isn't superior to the other, but probably shouldn't be lumped together as if they were the same thing.
This lumping together of anything connected to photography is often more a problem of understanding coming from non-photographers than from photographers themselves. Many artists that create photo based fine art recognize the difference and simply call themselves artists, sometimes digital artists if they do their manipulations completely digitally, and sometimes photo-based artists. A good example is the fine artist, Brooke Shaden. If you look at her biography (about page) on her website she calls herself a self-portrait artist. She points out that she studied photography but emphasizes "beginning" her process with a photograph of herself before calling them "images". Galleries, however, will often label her a photographer.
Another example is Ansel Adams. He and many other photographers of his time, by the definitions and descriptions presented in this video, would not at the time they were creating their works be considered to be creating fine art photography. Yet, Adams and his colleague Edward Weston were probably the biggest advocates for the acceptance of "straight photography" as fine art.
Intent, emotion, and conveying an important idea may certainly be a big component of fine art but technique and technical mastery isn't and never has been excluded from also being an important component of fine art. This is why painters have their brush strokes analyzed and what materials were added by the artist to certain paints used becomes an important consideration. Likewise with photography, the technical skill and tools utilized are important elements in the acceptance by many of not just the quality but also the quantifiability of a photograph as fine art. This is why people continue to obsess over Adams' darkroom skills and the invention of his zone system. Although he would use both small format cameras as well as color, his technical mastery of the large format black and white process is so well known and appreciated that it's as much his technical abilities as it is his vision that brings his work into the fine art world.
Even “intent” falls apart in the consideration of what makes something “fine art”. Some of the greatest photographers of the early to mid-twentieth century were fashion photographers, creating work that was unquestionably for a commercial purpose yet created by artists with artistic purpose and thought in mind. Photographers like Irving Penn, Richard Avedon, Horst P. Horst, and Helmut Newton blur the lines between commercial and art photography, and if you insert as a requirement for fine art to be work desired by collectors and galleries, all of those photographers easily fall into the camp of fine art photographers, even with the work intended to be used to sell fashion magazines and clothing.
In the end I think it doesn't really benefit anyone to put the label of "fine art" onto any art, whether it's a photograph or another medium. If what makes art "fine" is primarily intent, perhaps it should be called "gallery art" vs "commercial art" vs "vernacular art" or something like that. By employing the term "fine" it implies in most people’s mind, a judgement. Fine becomes not a type but a measure of how good the art is. While that isn't what is intended by the terminology, I don't think there is any way to avoid that perception if using the word "fine". I think we’d all do just fine however if we threw away the adjectives and qualifiers all together and just called it all art and stuck with the definition of art as defined by Britannica.com “art, a visual object or experience consciously created through an expression of skill or imagination. The term art encompasses diverse media such as painting, sculpture, printmaking, drawing, decorative arts, photography, and installation.“ That way it doesn’t matter if the object or experience was created to sell a dress or to make someone contemplate the meaning of life. It’s enough that it was a creative expression that other people can experience.
Thank you for sharing such a comprehensive and insightful perspective on the complexities surrounding the categorisation of photography as fine art. Your points about the evolving definition of photography, especially with the advent of digital manipulation and AI, resonate with ongoing debates in the artistic community.
The distinction between a photograph and fine art, as well as the role of intent and technical mastery, is indeed a nuanced and subjective matter. Your examples of artists like Brooke Shaden and Ansel Adams underscore the diverse approaches and perceptions within the field. The tension between commercial and artistic purposes, exemplified by fashion photographers like Irving Penn and Richard Avedon, adds another layer of complexity to the discussion. And you are right, a forty minute discussion allows one to just scratch the surface of a deep and complex subject.
Your suggestion to move away from labels like "fine art" and consider broader categories like "gallery art" and "commercial art" reflects a desire to focus on the creative expression itself rather than getting entangled in potentially limiting classifications. Embracing the term "art" in its broadest sense allows for a more inclusive and open-minded appreciation of various forms of creative expression.
Your concluding idea of referring to everything as "art" aligns with a more egalitarian approach, emphasising the diverse nature of creative expression without imposing hierarchical judgments. Indeed, the essence lies in the act of creation, and as you aptly put it, "It’s enough that it was a creative expression that other people can experience." plus it should not matter what tools have been used to create the art, a camera included.
Thank you for contributing to the ongoing dialogue surrounding the definition and appreciation of art in its myriad forms. Regards Martin
I like your approach the topic of what constitutes 'fine art photography'. that intent is the crux of the matter. photography can be used in so many different ways .. snap shot, documentary, illustration, advertising, fine art, portraiture, journalism, reproduction .. and sometimes those borders blur. or the photographers have different intent at different times. Mary Ellen Mark has shot advertising campaigns for companies like Coach Bags, Levis, Heineken. but at other times she has documented subjects _( mental wards, circus, prostitution )_ with images that both she and the public view as fine art.
I flinched when you put forward sales/auctions as a defining point for whether an image was fine art photography, or as entry into the arena. I would assume that the photographer presented the images as at least fine photography, if not art, that subsequently fetched a high price at auction. I actually laughed when you put up the Man Ray image here.
since photography starts with precision, I find the discussion of fine art photography using or needing imprecision, grundge, unnatural colors, surrealism counterproductive. this also applies to whether or not Photoshop has a place in fine art. that was the early objection to photography itself as art .. it was too technical, mechanical, it was a part of the process used to reproduce/print .. so, of course, "it can't possibly be considered art". just as what camera you use can't define whether or not you are doing fine art photography, whether or not you use film, or a hand process, can't. you even present an image where the photographer used Photoshop to erase people and other things - but otherwise presented a 'straight' image - as an outstanding example. so I was confused by your cry of "why would you want to use Photoshop?!". _(especially with the prominence of digital cameras)_ anything can be overdone .. the gimmick for the sake of the gimmick .. but that is just poor execution.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the topic of "fine art photography." It's wonderful to hear that you appreciate the discussion on the role of intent in defining what constitutes fine art photography. Your observations about the various purposes and blurred boundaries of photography are spot on, and it's true that photographers may have different intents at different times, creating a diverse range of photographic work.
I understand your hesitation regarding the use of sales/auctions as a defining point for fine art photography. You make a valid point that high auction prices don't necessarily reflect the photographer's original intent. It's essential to remember that the art world is complex, and different factors, including marketing, can influence the perceived value of a photograph. Popular artists normally display a consistency in pricing and sales.
I'm also grateful for your insights on the technical aspects of photography. Your point about photography initially facing criticism as a non-artistic medium due to its technical and mechanical nature is historically accurate. It's interesting to reflect on how the art world's perception of photography has evolved over time, and more important going forward.
Regarding the use of Photoshop and other editing tools, your comment highlights a crucial debate in the world of fine art photography. The question of whether digital manipulation has a place in fine art is subjective, and it's clear that your perspective differs from the one presented in my video. The notion that "anything can be overdone" is indeed pertinent, and the quality of execution plays a significant role in determining whether an artistic effect enhances or detracts from a photograph's impact. I guess AI now ads another layer onto this debate.
In the end, the discussion of fine art photography is rich and multifaceted, with room for diverse opinions and interpretations. I appreciate your contribution to this conversation.
Best regards, Martin
16:23 For me, the capabilities of my equipment matter. For this reason, I have and use more than one different camera. My latest purchase is an Olympus OM-D E-M1x, I bought it because I want to make photos that I cannot make with any of my other cameras. I chose it over the E-M1 III because it has a GPS built in.
I bought a Lumix S1R because it's better in many respects than my 5Ds which I sold. Sadly, no GPS but the 5Ds doesn't have one either. I kept my TS-E lenses because those are important to my photography, my artistic choices. I use the high resolution mode so I can do extensive cropping in post.
If you and I are in conversation over a coffee, and I know what gear you use, that will constrain any suggestions and questions about what you do or could try.
I can, however, put a wide prime lens on any of my cameras and go off photographing for a few hours. I gladly accept the restrictions, BUT, I don't want those restrictions to be permanent. I must have a macro lens for my flowers, and in-camera focus bracketting is handy.
Thanks for sharing
Brilliant thankyou
You are welcome Paul
Beautiful.
Thank you!
what is fine art photography? Walk into the gallery of Mario Basner in Las Vegas and you'll see with your own eyes and feel it in your stomach... breathtaking work.
Absolutely, Sam! Fine art photography is a unique and impactful experience, especially when showcased in a gallery setting. Mario Basner's work in Las Vegas is a testament to the power of this medium. There's something about seeing art in person, feeling its presence, that social media can't quite capture. Each artist brings their own style and perspective to the genre, ensuring a diverse range of approaches and subject preferences that truly come to life in a gallery exhibition. It's a special way to connect with the art and immerse oneself in the impact it can have. Cheers to the beauty of fine art photography! Kind Regards, Martin
@@MartinOsner absolutely, well said Mario and good lecture.
Does the paper or techinque of development makes a difference as to whether it is fine art photography? I am an art collector who what's to start collecting fine art and I want to know is a photo printed giclee considered fine art? Also is there a hierarchy among silver gelatin, archival ink , and digital c print?
Hi Kevin,
Such good questions, thank you! When it comes to determining whether a photograph qualifies as fine art, the specific paper or printing technique used in its development does play a role, but the most crucial factor is whether the medium is archival. Archival quality ensures the longevity and preservation of the artwork over time. In the case of giclée prints, the term "giclée" simply means "to spray," and it refers to the ink being sprayed onto archival art paper using high-quality inks. This technique is considered a fine art printing method due to its use of archival materials.
The hierarchy among silver gelatin prints, archival inkjet prints (like giclée), and digital C prints is influenced by the stability and permanence of the prints. While digital C prints have limitations in terms of longevity, both black and white silver gelatin prints that are hand-printed in a darkroom and toned, as well as giclée prints, can be considered highly archival when produced with quality materials.
It's important to note that the distinction between fine art and not lies in the artist's intention rather than the specific technique or development process. Fine art photography reflects the artistic vision and expression of the photographer.
In summary, giclée prints and traditional black and white silver gelatin prints are both excellent mediums to consider collecting for their archival qualities. The key factor in determining whether a photograph is fine art is the artist's intention and creative expression.
I hope this clarifies your questions about fine art photography and helps you in your journey as an art collector.
Best regards,
Martin
An artist is someone who creates from ideas and sensitivity pieces that become real with a connection to tools and craft to capture light. An artists creativity depends on his or hers capacity to understand the mission of its work from different perspectives that don't suit a format of right or wrong, but one of multiple variables that combined define an artists style and mission. A photographer can but not always is an artist, since photography is a tool used in other fields like science, reference and recreation, commercial applications among other non artistic applications. Photography But in photography the line between a photographic artist and other photographers can be an unsharp line with a scale of grays between black and white. Photography can also be used as part of a process where the photograph may not be the end of the process, but a step of other processes like video, x rays, printing and others. Fine Art Photography is where images are captured by light sensitivity using tools that depend on the creativity and a skill of a photographer that expresses through the images created photographically. But even in photographic art.
Absolutely! I agree with your comment. As I mentioned in the beginning of the talk, it's a complex subject to explore. I also resonate with your definition of an artist, someone who creates from ideas and sensitivity with tools and craft to capture light. Photography blurs the line between artist and non-artist due to its diverse applications, but Fine Art Photography allows for artistic expression through images captured with creativity and skill. It's a fascinating and nuanced topic. Thank you for sharing your insights!
Very interested
Hi Robert. please go onto www.artphotographyacademy.com to register and subscribe, this way you will receive information.
This is so powerful, I still shooting films in this days 2023, my question is can fine art photography can enhance my photography?
Thank you for your message! I think any creative input will benefit your photography.
Great video, I just think that Photoshop is bashed a little bit, because most people never learn it properly and therefore only use the one-click filter offered in the program. In my opinion it has a huge potential for creating art, if you learn working with layers, masks, blending modes and the extensive brush palette. Granted the learning curve for good post processing software is steep and people often want to take shortcuts, therefore Adobe had to simplify their program and add filters and other one step clicks, just for marketing reasons.
Agreed Stefan, but remember regardless it is the visual content that is more important. Photoshop is an amazing tool, but still it will come down to the art in the print, not just the skill.
@@MartinOsner Agree 100%, without a good creative vision even the most elaborate skills will only produce mediocre results. It is certainly not creativity to attempt replicating other people's ideas, which seems to be the trend of our times. Keep up the good work!
A fine art photograph should make no pretense of documentation. It is art. As for Photoshop, no one looks at a painting and says, "Yeah, but you used brushes!"
@alansach8437 You've made an excellent point. Fine art photography, by its very nature, isn't about documentation; it's about artistry and expression. It's not about accurately capturing a scene or event; it's about creating a visual narrative, evoking emotions, and conveying ideas. Fine art photographers use their skills and techniques, including tools like Photoshop, to craft their unique visions, just as painters use brushes, colors, and other tools to create their artworks.
The comparison to painting is apt because it highlights that the medium used to create art is not what defines its value or authenticity. What truly matters is the creative intent and the final result-an image that moves, inspires, and resonates with viewers.
Respect!..
Thank yo so much !
Great talk Martin. Can I ask, when does a photograph become 'fine art'. Is it the case that a photographer picks up hi / her camera and sets out to take a fine art photograph or does it become a 'fine art' photograph when the next stage takes place? In other words at what point do you become a 'fine art' photographer? I am also interested.
Hi Terry, thanks...In reply to your question. The print/s will determine this. Both qualify. Either a pure photograph that has exhibition content that can be used with further process, or an art-piece that is created after the photograph is captured. The process does not make the art, the content and message does.
I believe "fine art" is widely associated with "art for the sake of art", created based on the photographer's idealism to tell an idea/concept. It doesn't need to have practical values like advertisement/photojournalism/etc do.
You're absolutely right @anta40. "Fine art" in the realm of photography, as in other art forms, is often associated with the creation of images for the sake of art itself. Fine art photography typically focuses on expressing ideas, emotions, and concepts through images. It doesn't necessarily serve practical purposes like advertising or photojournalism, which often have specific goals and functions.
Fine art photographers often prioritize creativity, artistic expression, and their unique vision. Their work is meant to evoke feelings, provoke thought, and transcend the boundaries of everyday photography, aiming for a deeper connection with the viewer. This emphasis on artistic exploration and the pursuit of ideas and concepts is what distinguishes fine art photography from other photographic genres.
Couldn’t thank you enough
You are more than welcome!
Yes I am interested
Thank you! Follow this link for more info >> www.artphotographyacademy.com/
👏👏👏
Can do Fine photography with a cellphone & how do recommending methods? Thank you in advance!!
Thank you for your question! Cellphones can indeed be a wonderful tool to explore fine art photography. They offer unparalleled convenience and can be excellent for experimenting with creative ideas on the go. Mobile smart phones are unobtrusive, and they are always at hand, making them perfect for spontaneous shots and artistic exploration.
However, it's worth noting that while mobile phones have made great strides in photography, especially in recent years, the image quality, especially for larger prints, may still have some limitations compared to high-resolution cameras. So, it's a good idea to consider using both tools in your photographic journey. You can use your cellphone for everyday inspiration and capture, and for more demanding or large-scale projects, a high-resolution camera can help ensure the best quality.
In the end, the key is to use the tools that work best for your creative vision and project requirements. Both cellphones and high-resolution cameras have their unique strengths, and it's the artist's choice how to leverage them effectively.
In the end - Feel good factor, a therapy,using Photography or whatever.
Agreed, photography can be a therapeutic and feel-good activity, offering a creative way to express, and find joy.
4.7 Billion!
"Syndrome" (I'm was also an English Major)
Ideas and Feelings need not be "important" (We don't wanna take ourselves too seriously - well, at least not all the time) 🙂
"There are no rules for good photographs; there are only good photographs." - Ansel Adams
He Gregory, great quote from Ansel Adams. Still begs the question, what makes a good photograph good?
its whatever you can convince a gallery to show of course!
Interested please and thank you
Hi Ana, thats great news, please register and subscribe on www.artphotographyacademy.com Regards Martin
I find what you said about the public decides which is a better photo with the vote of the dollar is wrong, since there are many bad fine art photos people pay fortunes for many many reasons, and many perfect fine art photos no one will pay a dime
Thank you for sharing your perspective. While it's true that there are exceptions in the world of fine art photography where value doesn't always correlate with perceived quality, my statement about the public deciding through monetary support reflects a broader trend. In many cases, the value attributed to a photograph, whether in terms of monetary worth or cultural significance, is indeed influenced by public reception and investment.Having experience in the field of fine art photography and interacting with the public gives you valuable insight into the complexities of this dynamic. However, it's important to acknowledge that while exceptions exist, the general trend often sees public opinion and monetary support shaping the perceived value of art. Kind Regards, Martin
❤
Many thanks. Regards Martin!
"A photograph that someone is charging a lot of money for" would be the short answer!
The long answer:
"More than a snapshot, a photo that the photographer put some thought into, used their artistic abilities on, often abstract or surrealistic in nature, but not always. Creative. Two fine art photographers would be unlikely to take the same image, even when photographing the same thing. Creativity can continue into post processing. A fine art photograph is not a documentation, it is a work of art that is completed when the artist is happy with it."
Hi Alan, I appreciate your input and would like to share my perspective on the definition of fine art and fine art photography. At the core of it all, I believe that fine art, whether it's in the form of paintings, sculptures, or photography, is ultimately defined by the artist's purpose. It transcends commercial aspects, exhibition status, or the type of camera used.
The essence of fine art is the artistic intent and creative expression of the photographer. It's about conveying a unique vision, a message, or an emotion through the photograph. Whether the resulting artwork is intended for sale or not, exhibited in a gallery or not, or captured with a professional camera or a smartphone, what truly matters is the joy it brings to the creator.
The artist's fulfilment and the connection they establish with their work are paramount in defining fine art. It's a deeply personal and passionate endeavour, and that's what makes fine art photography a form of artistic expression that goes beyond the confines of commerce or technique.
Thank you for engaging in this discussion and sharing your thoughts. It's through conversations like these that we can celebrate the diversity and beauty of the art world. Thanks again, kind regards Martin
yes very interested
Thanks for your interest Jacques. Here is the link where you can register for our new art photography academy. artphotography.mykajabi.com. Regards Martin
Jacques you will also find additional course information on this page www.learn-photography.net/fine-art-photography-course
Interested in San Diego
Thank you for your comment! Follow this link for more info >> www.artphotographyacademy.com/
Very inspiring video, are you interesting into giving chance and exposure to emerging fine artists on the African continent ?
Hi Jean-Yves, thank you very much, I am pleased you enjoyed the talk. Yes we do offer exposure to emerging artists. Please check out this page for info on submissions. www.martinosner.com/admin-policy
Are you interested in Fine Art Photography? Are you looking for inspiration, lessons and a community of art photographers? If so, visit our Art Photography Academy at www.artphotographyacademy.com/ and enjoy some free content on us.
Iterested!
$700 lol please.....................nothing more than a course for hobbyist and GWC (guys/gals with camera) and I know you are willing to take their hard earned dollars too lol
I appreciate your feedback, and I believe in welcoming and considering first-hand experiences when it comes to constructive criticism, especially regarding value. This course is tailored for photographers aiming to elevate their work into a more artistic realm. It's important not to underestimate the creativity and quality of the work produced by so called "guys & gals" passionate about photography.
I lack fine motor control, so some of those techniques are not possible for me. What I can do in-camera, I can do. If I can't do it in-camera, I must do digitally.
Nobody, myself included, can easily read my handwriting. I enjoyed drawing and painting at school, but the results were a mess. I did surprise one of my teachers, I passed technical drawing. Technical drawing, being technical, is aided by using a special drawing board, a tee square, fixed triangles for common angles, a compass, a protractor, 2H pencils, a sharpener and a special eraser.
60 years later this year, I still remember the basics although I haven't used the skills since. Along with high school physics, it helps me understand better than most photographers the equipment I use, that "lens distortion" mostly isn't.
As a moderately gifted autistic, I like to learn stuff. Almost anything that's factual, true. So science, photography including beyond the bounds of what I might attempt. Recently, "The voice." If you follow the news you must have hear about it. I have read the proposed change, I have read learned opinions, I don't see how the opposition can justify its stance. That's in contrast with those who believe the latest Facebook scandal.
I am here because you promised me to tell me what fine art photography is. I accept it's subjective, but you're making a good case for your arguments. Other practitioners of "fine art photography" assume the audience understands the concept and don't answer my questions about it. Christian Fletcher uses the word "decor" to describe his work. That seems pretty clear to me, and I think it's a term others should use.
You derided a photograph as a "snapshot." To me, a snapshot is taken with little thought. The sort of thing my niece does with her phone. She stands, points the camera down at her kids and "click." Beautiful. Or down at the beach, points the camera in the general direction of Africa, doesn't notice the 1cm of slope across the screen.
Thank you for taking the time to comment. Your determination to pursue photography despite challenges is commendable. Embrace in-camera and digital techniques and remember, great art is not limited by tools, but by creativity. Keep exploring and learning, as there are endless possibilities for artistic expression. Fine art photography is subjective, and you'll discover your voice within it. Embrace terms that define your style like "decor" if this works for you. For me as I discussed in the video "Decor" feels more closer to my definition of Art Photography. Don't be discouraged by labels. Your photographs reflect your vision. Stay true to your creative journey and continue sharing your inspiring work. Regards Martin
thanks
You're welcome!
Interested
Hi David, thats great news, please register and subscribe on www.artphotographyacademy.com Regards Martin
Martin, just came across this video and was intrigued by the photograph of Andre Gursky that sold at auction for 4.3 million dollars. I find it an image that in no way would generate that kind of value , and it’s mundane and muted, soooo what explains that? Also, just as an aside comment, this is the kind of transaction that confuses people and makes Art suspect to many.
Hi John, you've touched on a common point of confusion in the art world. The value of artworks, like the photograph by Andreas Gursky that sold for 4.3 million dollars, can seem surprising. Art valuations depend on various factors, including the artist's reputation, rarity, historical significance, and market trends. While some may find a piece mundane, others see deeper meaning.These high prices can indeed make art seem suspect to many, as art appreciation is highly subjective. It's an ongoing debate in the art world, sparking discussions about what truly defines art's value. Thanks for raising this interesting point!
Hello Martin. An interesting discourse. In the main I would say it is a good one! There are though a few things that caused me to frown. I hope you will be able to see why.
You mentioned something along the lines of art being fiction - well it can be but not essentially so. It can be founded on reality. No less real than photography. I have been drawing and painting all of my life really. I particularly like realism. for that matter I detest the likes of Picasso. To me, his work looks like something he might have done on drugs. That is how it strikes me.
That aside I don't think it is appropriate to use him in reference to photography today because things were different in his day. The equipment, the developing, etc. I don't think that can be left out.
You mentioned the public deciding what is Fine Art. That made me frown the most. Money does not determine what is and is not Fine Art. If it did then that would place Fine Art strictly in the hands of the filthy rich. The Fine art in an art gallery can be enjoyed by the poor. Maybe a reasonably cheap book might be bought. Today, with the Internet that makes it easier still.
Now, a painter can go out in to the country and set about painting a beautiful landscape. The painter can edit and make changes along the way to make a more pleasing picture. A more balanced picture even. A branch might be left out for example. The picture could look as if the tree might topple otherwise. If a person is in the picture they might have a branch growing out of an ear if the painter includes it. The photographer has no choice but to photograph what is there. So yes! There is case for the likes of Photoshop in more ways than one.
Whatever the medium - be it photography, painting, drawing or whatever - one thing determines Art. That is the skill required to be able to do. The skill in photography will have differences to drawing and painting, but some things will be shared. Composition being one.
Finally, trying to keep this short. Does Art Offend? Definitely! Among my Art books is one in which it is stated the Artist who does not offend will never do anything at all. That is because they will always be seeking to please everybody. However the Artist should not seek to offend. There is a stark difference there.
Hi Steve, thank you for your thoughtful response. You've raised some important points that warrant discussion.
Art as Fiction vs. Reality: Art can indeed be grounded in reality just as much as it can be fictional. Realism has always been a significant part of art history, and your preference for realism is a testament to its lasting impact. Picasso's work, while controversial and unconventional, reflects a different artistic philosophy and historical context.
Public Determination of Fine Art: I agree that money alone shouldn't determine what is considered fine art. Art should be accessible to everyone, regardless of wealth. The internet and affordable books have indeed democratised access to art, allowing more people to appreciate and engage with it.
Realism in Painting vs. Photography: Your point about the flexibility of painters to alter scenes is well-taken. Photographers do face limitations with what's in front of the lens, but tools like Photoshop allow them to make artistic adjustments. Both mediums require skill and share principles like composition, though the techniques and challenges differ.
Art and Offense: Art can indeed provoke strong reactions and even offend. The intent, however, should be to express, not to deliberately offend. Seeking to please everyone can stifle creativity, but intentional offense is a different matter.
Thank you for this engaging discussion. Regards Martin
Hello Martin. thank you for your kind response towards my reply.
One of the main things I would like to state here is why neither money, nor the public can determine what is Fine Art. Combined, the public can only determine the popularity of a work. They are unlikely to know exactly what the artist's real intent is behind a work.
A few years back I submitted a photo in to a global competition just to see how it would fair. It quickly rose to first place and remained there until the final day when it was knocked down to second place. I can only remember that the winner was a Russian. My photo was out of the camera, digital, with no post editing. While the photo appeared to meet the requirements for Fine Art, it held a big secret which only I knew. The photo was taken with the camera set to Auto. My eye sight prevented me from taking the picture otherwise. So there was very little skill involved. It wasn't even a work of Art, never mind Fine Art. Art is never accidental or automatic. The picture's composition was perfect though but simple.
What makes Art "Art" is the skill within the artist. Fine Art might not be the most apt words. to use Fine Art is a refinement. It may be a masterpiece that displays the great level of skill that the artist has achieved.
I have noticed that some photographers will mention "Art and Photography." In that is an implication that photography is set apart from Art. They don't help their own cause for having photography recognised as an art.
There is a very common mistake made by many photographers. It is a mistake that has been creeping in to pencil drawings and paintings because people are using photos as models to base their work on. The mistake disqualifies a piece from being Fine Art as taught in schools and Art Books.
This is the mistake: An arm might be seen leaving the frame of the picture and then come back in again. Fingers cut off. Feet cut off at the ankles. The classically recognised cut off points are either not known or observed. Such photos, etc, might otherwise be very good but fall down on composition.
And thanks again.
Do you understand "artistic photography" and "fine art photography" as the same concept? I'm working on artistic photography for my PhD. Greetings from Brazil! :)
I feel artistic photography and fine art photography are different concepts. But this is a personal view only.
interested
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