The Future of Boost Control: Electronic Wastegates
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2023
- This week we take a look at the new electronic wastegates from Turbosmart to see how they work and discuss all the different ways they could be used to get more performance out of a turbocharger system!
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The fact that the e-wastegate is only a few hundreds of dollars more is a HUGE win for this
Makes old style almost obsolete now🤷🏻♂️🤘🏻
heard some of them get stuck
@@24kNickhave heard nothing but good about them.🤷🏻♂️ Time will tell
@@sacrificialrubber779 me too but I believe Jamie’s civic from PFI speed had a issue with the e gate getting stuck , maybe even twice I’m not sure . We were gonna do the straight gate on our car but didn’t want to deal with it .
Only the Idiots would use anything else than old springs with no membrane or even Any shitty electricity when it comes 2 the Endurability.
Rob Dahm uses the e-gates on his rotary builds and loves them and loves how precise he can set them
yes dahm seem to like them alot and its might be alot more easy to use then the need to rout preasure hoses.
cleetus using co2 just to control his wastegate and get alot of boos creep sometimes, it would be nice to see if his engine would run more stabile presure with e-gates.
This is funny, as soon as I was getting into this video, I started wondering, damn what is damn using, now I know thx
Very impressed with the products turbo smart has come out with. Hiring very smart engineer's is paying off.
7:54 I’m already sold man.
nice! the waste gate valves size/flow rate and release latency is important, having a controlled delay is good because you wont loose pressure in-between shifts but too much delay creates over boost/spike And with blow off valves if it holds waste gate pressure after the throttle is closed it builds thrust load on the impeller shaft and wears it out little bit faster creating the fluttering/back flow sound from when too small a blow off valve, poorly controlled or no valve is used
To be fair, that type of shift delay control has been around for a very long time. Running a simple N75 we've been tweaking that for 20 years at this point. A lot of guys weren't using the simple technology available to them.
Man, what a great video. Really explored the possibilities that open up and admire the ethos of turbosmart. We've made some setups around the e-gates and while a challenge in already tight engine bays they have worked out pretty slick. The straight gate is really cool too and didn’t even know about the oil feed regulator
If these are reliable. This should be awesome. Much better than a spring.
Rob dahm has been using this for the past 2 years & on with no issues. Is that reliable enough for you 🤔
Looks like we're starting the weekend off on a high note🥳. Been waiting on more insight into elctronic wastegates that aren't already present in OEM applications
“hysteresis” I just learned a new word today!!! Thanks MotoIQ Mike!!
As someone who drives a Golf EA888 Gen3 with one of these (IHI). They work great but they do have a higher failure rate than the conventional spring wastegate on production cars that will see alot of miles. Stil, obviously its much easier to control and also simpler to have it electronic(non water-cooled WG). As for the magnet temps , ask any RC racer about that, its why we keep our electric motors in our models under 185F , over that you loose magnetism, so you loose torque and speed.
Maybe thats the OEM VW part, turbosmart has pretty rigorous validation.
@@motoiq VW OEM for the IS12, 20 and 38 is IHI Japan, but yes that could be the case
The Curie Temperature is the temp at which magnetic properties of a material change. It depends on the material, but I'd imagine most of the motors are using similar grades of material.
@@jimboyokel yeah those magnets its around 210-230f if Im not mistaken, but you cant really take the temperature accurately since we measure on the can itself , 185F gives us a good margin.
As a fellow Mk7 Golf R i too have had fault codes for the electronic wastegate actuator. But isnt the actual wastegate on the is38 still internally gated? These seem to be closer to an external type wastegate.
I could watch hours of this
Dat 4DSC in the background 👌
This is awesome, thanks for the video! 👍
I will be boosting my EP3 next year and want to use very high quality parts so this information is very much appreciated! I just finished ordering all my suspension/wheels/tires based on your EP3 build video and really appreciate you putting that out, I kind of felt lost when I initially started doing research but you figured a lot of things out years ago!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you so much for this video.
Mike, how did you know I'm about to change over to an electronic boost controller! Great vid!
Wild stuff!
I love the push too resolve issues at the highest performance percentile.
Please keep up the awesome work. 😏🇦🇺🤜🏼🤛🏼😎🍀🍀🍀
Big hot rodding innovations still popping up, unbelievable! Would make for a very elegant way of limiting wheelspin by cutting boost at low RPMs
or if you do a turbo busa you can have basically no boost in first then boost it by gear to like 20psi in higher gears. stops it from wheeling not doesnt stop it from hauling ass!
Dude with modern boost control and tuning I got my 01 7.3 deisel to 22 mpg hwy. Modern engine tech is wild
@@Lrlbiglee 😲🧐🏁
Aussie Aussie Aussie! Great work guys!
I would guess this would make many exotic turbo setups easier.
Setups like compound, asymmetrical sized turbos, dual boost (compressor and turbo), or rocket boost setup (Subaru rally), all of those could be a lot easier to control individually.
I'm honestly more curious if they'll release more sizes or the straight gate
Come to SEMA ;-)
I got one for my 8th gen civic si. Can’t wait to see the outcome
I would assume that there is a worm gear in the system. They will only move when when commanded. Unlike a standard gear set
Great video. I would love to implement something like this when the overall size and the price comes down.
The size does look like a restriction. Definitely wouldn't have fit in my past projects.
You left out that the oil Restrictor has a filter in it. Win win 👍
Thank you! How could we forget?! 😅 44 Micron serviceable filter to be specific!
Very interesting
I've just purchased one of these as I wanted more control over boost.Was running an internal gate before.Will be making 800hp and want to run boost by gear with the haltec.
HOPEFULLY Holley can have an update to control these wastegates! 🤞
The quality of the electronics is a very important part of the E wastegate
These are very cool. I've wanted one since I first saw them, since boost control tuning, even with a closed loop option, is subject to many issues mentioned in the video. It's unfortunate that they cost more than my turbo did, and wouldn't fit on either of my cars without modifications to the manifold. I would like to see one that uses a linkage and a bowden drive to move that actuator somewhere else.
I've always been curious about something though. With heat being such an issue in wastegate actuators, why do many manufacturers insist on making them black. The emissivity and thus absorbtivity of black anodized AL is significantly higher than un-tinted anodizing or raw AL, and in many cases these things sit inches from glowing IR sources... Even the cheap actuators come with water ports now, but reducing the heat input from the glowing primaries or turbo can't hurt.
Wow yeah. I'm trying to figure out if it's gonna work with s300 hondata with the black box
Australian parts are the best !
I already have a compgate40 on my sti g30-770 sti build, its amazing for the street. Worth the price for the upgrade👍
great gate and turbo for that engine.
Hi Mike.
These on the right engine with a twin charger system would probably get you boosted engine effiency easier cooling but that huge turbo peak hp numbers with usable torque.
These are giant though.... for me, it's yet another item to power: laying out my build I have electric power steering, electric AC compressor, electric pump for air-to-water intercooler, electric fans, and now an electric wastegate, in addition to my bevy of accessories? I can't believe I have to go down the rabbit hole of pros and cons for a dual 12V (in parallel) system..... And finding a beefy KA24DE(T) alternator to manage it
This is max 130 watts when it is adjusting, 0 Watts between engine idle and all the way up to the boost target.
You've got a lot of electric accessories, but almost nothing is running at the same time. Your electric power steering is going to be consuming almost zero power, if you're at wide open throttle, your electric AC compressor is off. Your intercooler pump is maybe 10 amps continuous.
Go measure your actual running current, you're going to be well short of 30 amps continuous without headlights on. that's totally manageable even on a factory alternator runny any RPM.
@@otm646 thanks for the feedback! You're absolutely right, I should look at total current draw and power usage at a realistic duty cycle and see just where I'm at!
@@mrbookends Your ecu can inform power usage from alternator and what is effectively charging the battery. So a simple math solve this question
I love boost!
The ceramic piece won’t crack after with 2 step exhaust pulses? Other than that concern, this tech is awesome 🤘
We have never seen a composite spacer crack within the nearly 6 years our Wastegates have been using them.
I’m going to run Turbosmart’s new 50mm eboostgate on the cold side to control boost. It will make the turbo spool like a supercharger but I’ll still run a traditional poppet style wastegate on the hot side as a safety to not overspool the turbo. I also bought Turbosmart’s black box which has two half bridge. Hopefully later they can reduce the physical footprint to make it more compact. Idk if TS can being that there is the compound gearing mechanism that takes up the inside of that housing.
That is interesting.
Well, a missed aspect of thermal issues is that heat directly affects resistance in a circuit. If resistance changes, then reference voltage changes. If the reference voltage doesn't change, then the current has too in its stead.
So, either have an inaccurate 0-5v reference or constant over working of overcurrent components (zener diode, resistor, UJT, etc). The ceramic composite of the bowl cooling won't change Ohms Law.
Could use a valve controlled vacum wategate. It’s a bit german, my porsche 992 turbo with ruf kit, responds well, reliable enough to run 880hp with 3 years warranty and a lot of tracks days and autobahning. And my wastegate remains open in launch to alleviate exhaust pressure, but my turbo is VTG. I don’t know 10 years ahead, but I put about 15000 mi and I’m confident
They are controled on close loop that is not problem if you have proper ecu to run eletronic wastegates.
@@fabini14 And good tunning too. For me, closed loop controls is magnificent and beautiful
Instead of using an electric boost solonoid to control vaccum. Just cut to the chase and use a solonoid boost controller. I bet this would work great. Just tell it where to go say open 3% at x psi and slowly open or close to perfectly control boost. This is such a simple concept. Yet technology has allowed us to take the heat and finally have accurate boost control. And no boost is lost to the bleed off system. And no melted vaccume lines causing boost leaks. This is a great idea.
Coils can't take the heat.
What built in safety protocols are in place in the event of the electronics malfunction or sensor malfunction? These are exposed to high temperature and pressure , can you state the failure rates based on testing? Throttle bodies and accelerator pedals have 2 independent sensors to prevent this. Can you elaborate what engine protection strategy is capable for preventing an over boost condition
Typically the same safety protocols used in a traditional turbocharged or supercharged application would still apply. The Turbosmart BlackBox also features over temp protection and over current protection to specifically prevent the Electronic Wastegate from failing.
There is no safety in a regular wastegate either.
It is up to the tuner to program in safety if the engine sees to much boost.
My 25 year old car used fuel cut in case off over boosting if there was a malfunction in the wastegate system.
Its an electronic pressure regulator. We've been using them in commercial refrigeration for over 20 years.
this will definitely help rotary’s get into the 5 second zone
I really appreciate you using engineering terms. I just wish the guest on here would do the same. He's talking about PID and beating around the bush trying to explain it without saying it by name.
If he said proportional Integrator derivative controler everyone would go huh? Then we would loose most people. That's not effective communication.
I would like to see them like heavy equipment with coolant running around them to keep them cool for longevity.
Awesome review!!! Do you know if the Cobb Access Port and tuning with Cobb is compatible with the Turbosmart Electronic Wastegates?
Not at this time
Is the turbo oil regulator applicable to journal bearing turbos? What change in the typical turbo journal oiling system is necessary?
Yes it is. I would regulate to about 40 psi.
10:50 shhh shhh
🤫🤫
what would be a suitable addition to a G4KD 2.0L?
i feel like we need remote actuator in order to add these to existing turbo kits. that huge actuator is hard to fit.
It's one of the points we brought up, many times the system will have to be built around the wastegate. The advantages may be worth it!
he makes a great salesman
AHHH finally.
I’m surprised this hasn’t been a thing for a while.
@4:40 so does any other screw/bolt... no?
Any wastegate kit for sprinters?
So the gear train is like a wastegate flap/valve locking mechanism, need power to open and close the flap. In that case when the flap is in closed mode, and then DC power is lost to the unit electronic controller or electronics went bad, and over boost occuring, it is then like a normally closed valve ?
My engine MB M276.820 3.0 turbo is stock, using vacuum based actuator for wastegate control, it is normally open design. If any vacuum hose leak or the boost controller vacuum control valve failed, wastegate stay open as safety measure, hence a normally open sytem.
So what safety measure is in place for this electronic wastegate during its failure to actuate while in overboost condition ? ECM engine cut off based on boost pressure sensor, or some other extra safety ? Thank u
Typically the same safety protocols used in a traditional turbocharged or supercharged application would still apply. The Turbosmart BlackBox also features over temp protection and over current protection to specifically prevent the Electronic Wastegate from failing.
The Speeduino ECU can also control electronic waste gates
Could you do a video on air to air intercooler vs air to water
good idea
I’m running a StraightGate 50 water cooled on my RX7 with my Haltech Nexus R3 and having problems. This wastegate isn’t supported by Haltech and on the H-Bridge was causing over-current issues drawing more than the max 16A override on a 8A circuit. Haltech sent me Alpha firmware that supposedly supports the StraightGate but it wouldn’t work. I spent hours and rewired my milspec harness to use the Haltech 25A high current outputs to control the gate and now it drives the wastegate so fast and hard during the calibration it causes a wastegate position error. Have sent logs to Haltech and followed up but so far no response. Help!
Unfortunately, as you stated, your ECU doesn't have the support. The R5 would be my choice
Mercedes had this in the 90s on there turbos
Aa someone who built butterfly bleed air valves for turbine engines i can say electronic solenoids can be far more unreliable than our pneumatically controlled bleed air valves.
Watch the video - there are no solenoids involved.
@@martystaggs6948 I call it a solenoid but I know it isn't
❤
This how I thought a Mac valve worked wen I first heard the term electronic boost. Always wondered why this wasn’t a thing. Fuel we had to wait for koenigseggs free valve. It always was a basic idea and Im clueless on how it took so long
It's been around, just not on a consumer Motorsports level.
can I use one of these with my procharger to change the boost levels instead of swapping pulleys?
can bleed off boost like a regular wastegate on a procharger
you will need to run the pulley for the largest boost you want
and bleed off the rest
it will be less efficient tho
@@seethruhead7119 thats what I'm saying, ei, car makes 22lbs of boost & want to make 14....without swapping pullies...was asking if this could do it
Don't see why it couldn't. But you could also do that with a regular waste gate too. Just have know how to program your tuning software to respond to what boost pressures you're looking for.
Yes the StraightGate can be used for supercharged pressure control.
Once this guy started speaking electrician, I was sold. Then he started speaking electrical engineer and now I want their stocks 😭
Now the question. Can you just plug this into your Subaru boost controller and adjust values to make the electric wastegate actuate with stock ecm using ecu flash???
You need a 3 port.
@@motoiq I’m curious about the electric boost control unit. How do you tune the opening and closing of the unit. I have a 3 port already, but this would eliminate vacuum lines and make it extremely accurate for tuning boost curve and the ecm correcting boost as well. Would you just use the 3 port wires and tune in the wastegate duty cycle table to change the electric waste gate
I think you need a lot more basic knowledge before you attempt this
@@motoiq I think you can’t read the question I’m asking. I know the Subaru ecm inside and out. How it works I was just trying to creat an educational topic for people to understand that you can hook up the boost control wires to the electric waste gate and alter the duty cycle with ecu flash and Tactrix cable to put the waste gate where you want it and have no vacuum lines that control the wastegate. Or bleeding on any air so you will naturally have better boost control and no bleeding off of air to control the wastegate. But your moto iq you should know that…..
If you know then why are you asking?
NAISHHHHHH
Street use?.
doesn't vw audi arlready have these for mk7 and a3?
A electronic actuator for a stock flapper type wastegate yes, not a high volume motorsports one.
Does it work with ALL aftermarket ECMs?
Most of the newer ones. We talk about that in the video.
So can I just bolt this up and adjust with a knob
no
Who sows virtue reaps honour.
That's cool an all, but you went through all that trouble to make a motorized waste gate an you choose a cheap ole brushed motor for the driver, it wont last long, that needs to be a brushless servo motor.
A servo motor can have brushes. This is a servo motor, if it has PWM control it is a servo motor.
Ok well it needs a servo motor that isn't from a cracker box. If you know anything about motors you can look at that one they are using and know its cheap af.@@motoiq
What do you know from looking at it? You didn't know a servo motor can have brushes. A cheap motor doesnt live long in this application and the wastegate has a good service and warranty record.
while this is neat, there is a huge problem, heat and electronics, ( specifically motors) DO NOT MIX whiel the concept is cool, i foresee a LOT of problems with failed steppers for the gate valve.
This has been rigorously validated under conditions that would cook a mechanical wastegate. Mechanical wastegates can be failure-prone if the turbo system isn't designed properly, especially under racing conditions. The typical short-term failure mode is diaphragm melting, spring cooking, and losing tension or both. The longer term is valve stem scaling and sticking.
@@motoiq i stil think the steppers will fail under normal conditions sooner. just like every IAC i've seen over about 10 years old. there is also current based wear on electronic components as electricity is the constant transfer of electronics across conductive surfaces, this leads to breakdown over time from ionization as well as atomic frictional wear and tear from the electrons jumping. and a preocess called electromigration.
Which also happens to a standard mechanical wastegate. Electromigration is more of a thin film semiconductor thing and would be an issue if the part was not designed and validated for this sort of use like this is. We talked about it briefly but if you read the literature that comes with the wastage the validation testing is more more riguous that typical mechanical wastegates.
Our patented zero back drive gear train. = worm gear or lead screw pretty much the only two viable options.
I don't want to get into it with too much detail and having a patent doesn't make sense, you can just look up the patent and it will tell you what's in it. So just tell us what's in it! it's a geared motor onto a lead screw with feedback... it's a fancy linear actuator. Don't get me wrong a very nice product with lots of work in it but I hate when people/companies pretend these things are systems nobody has used before. Grinds my gears 🤣
To my knowledge no one has used this on a commercially available performance wastegate application before.
@@motoiq I understand and I agree. The fallacy is that it's patented and saying I don't want to go into too much detail. You can read the patent with the detail of the design. My main point is just tell us how it works and flaunt how good it is because if someone wants to understand it they can read the documentation.
how is the heat managed when you have a very hot manifold and no cooling for the poppet valve or housing?
watch the video
Add in possibility of loose, damp, corroded contacts.
Lots can go wrong with conventional wastegates as well, vacuum line falls off or gets left off, vacuum line deteriorates or melts, diaphragm melts or develops leaks, spring looses tension, valve sticks. I have seen all of this in my time working on turbo race cars.
@@motoiq yes...and radiator hoses fall off too !
Try watching UA-cam !
Theirs video after VIDEO of wiring issues on today's electrics !!!
Tell me the TRUTH !
Do you use factory idiot lights or do you use say Auto-meter mechanical gauges on race cars ???
Engines have heat cycles..
Moisture, forms then evaporates...
Problems arise.
Springs collapse ???
What about jour valve springs ??
Which is used more,
Waste gate springs or valve springs ??
Your chassis has springs too !!
You just want to SELL THEM !
Or are sponsored.
Do you even race anything? The street doesnt count. Do you understand anything technical at all? From your reply, I think not. Wastegates get many times hotter than valve springs, they can get over 1000 degrees when bypassing hot exhaust gas pre-turbine, the gas is really hot, like 1400 degrees or more. Hot enough to melt silicone and nomex diaphragms and for the springs to lose tension. Hot enough to require exotic materials in the construction like inconel and MAR-M with PVD coatings. That's why they have to be placed where they will get good airflow and even watercooled. When you are doing something like road racing or drifting, that hot gas will be going through that wastegate for 30 or more seconds straight. Not cycling where heat transfer to a water jacket can occur like a valve. If you are on the salt flats, it could be a few minutes of hot gas exposure. That gas is corrosive as well, depending on the fuel type it can be really corrosive, heat (which speeds chemical reactions like oxidation) and corrosive gas causes scaling and pitting which causes leaking and sticking. I mean generally for stuff that counts, we use Motec ECUs, dashes, data loggers, and PDM's not autometer gages. I mean if you don't have a clue don't be so quick to tell someone they are not telling the truth.
@@motoiq Dude I'm retired.
I drag raced for years best daily driver 11:80 115 mph.
Got bored with that.
As drag racing is..
Then went to stock cars, first asphalt then on to dirt late models.
(77 Ed Howe Camaro, 468 BBC)
Dude...we don't race them in seconds...like boring drag cars...
Ya need to run 100 laps with a car banging your rear bumper..
Side by side..turn after turn.
First turbo truck I drove was in 1971...ive been around a "few"
Mostly I've driven trucks.
My record was 750k on it's original turbo.
Funny how they change colors after pulling 80k up a mountain for an hour and a half.
We run like 30psi.
Of course now they're using variable pitch now.
Next time you get a chance, stop at a fuel island at the truck stop .
Theyll open their hoods to check oil..LOOK at the turbos.
See if they have diaphrams. (?)
Actually diaphrams last a while...
As for years, we had DIAPHRAMS In our Fuel PUMPS !!
(Whodafiggured ?)
Son...I remember when Holley came out with the DUAL INLET !!
Finally got away from Carter AFBS !
(You know what those are ??)
Or....ya think edlebrock invented them ??
My first cam was a 30-30 ya know what that is ??
OR how about a MALLORY REV-POL ???
Packard 440's witj Raja clip !
Frankly....
SO WHAT ...
If I never raced...
Doesnt mean I can't keep a vacuum line connected !
You know (probably not)
What jour set up has be be to finish your qualifying rounds heat races AND the feature, WITH OUT SOMETHING FALLING OFF ???
Big deal 10 second car.
What 2-3 qualifiers ?
4-5 passes ??
Ya get 100 seconds ...
Oh WOW..
we RACED ALOT..
150 SECONDS !!!
You know how to tell someone loosing a discussion ???
....they ATTACK your charactor !
NOW HIDE !!
....block me....
You have no idea how old I am what I know, or what my qualifications are, I am a lot older than you think. I have no need to brag or flex about it, just state relevant facts. Diesel engines have much lower exhaust energy and lower EGTs than gas engines by several hundred degrees. Also for OEM diesels found in long haul trucks the wastegate construction is designed for its intended use. For truck diesels, the wastegate is almost always an internal design to the exhaust housing of the turbo, and the actuator is remotely mounted away from heat. If it is an external wastegate it is located where it has sufficient cooling for reliability and is sometimes water-cooled. Diesel wastegates are also much lower volume systems. A gas racing engine can wastegate up to 80% of the total exhaust volume. Talking about diesels is also irrelevant to your initial point which is probably stating that this wastegate is junk with no understanding or experience with it, due to your writing, that is also not clear. Also what racing class do you run a turbocharged car for 2-3 qualifiers for 150 seconds at WOT? Not even LSR racing, not even pikes peak. I call BS. If you actually did such demanding racing you would be struggling with wastegate durability issues at times as well. What is lame is someone who just attacked your character big time by calling you a liar baselessly, accusing you of attacking there's. Then saying you are losing when there is no argument and no winning or losing just stating facts. What a big deflection.
As an industrial automation controls engineer, I fail to see how valve POS is really all that relevant. Typically in industrial applications, we would for example monitor manifold pressure, drive pressure, and supply pressure to the diaphragm on the wastegate. Then there would be an I/P converter & PID loop controlling the supply pressure to the waste gate diaphragm. Valve pos is really irrelevant as what you’re controlling is boost/manifold pressure. What everything else is doing is somewhat irrelevant. IE open loop controls. Not an engine tuner so I’m not inherently familiar with these issues however seems weird to me as industrial applications we control pneumatic and hydraulics in this manner all the time.
The valve postion equates to flow volume, like any poppet style valve, it's pretty common sense.
@@motoiq What I was referring to is the PID, target manifold pressure in conjunction with the rest of the IO handle that. The Processor/PID determines output based on reference manifold pressure. In this sense the valve position is irrelevant. Most analog valves wether they be pneumatic, hydraulic don’t have an LVDT or encoder to determine valve position and work just fine. Your answer explains nothing….
My question was, is there a reason this control approach won’t work in this application. It’s literally used all over industry and works just fine… As in maybe there is a legitimate reason for not using it, I don’t know. I’m assuming you don’t have a clue either as you just spouted off valve position determines flow. Well duh!!! And that flow isn’t proportional to valve position either so you’d need a curve to calculate that. Which when one is using a reference manifold pressure - input 1, and has logic that dictates a target manifold pressure -input 2 and you’ve got an output waste gate 1, the differential between input 1 and input 2 dictates what output 1 does… I don’t need to know valve position… if manifold pressure is low, close the waste gate! If it’s high open it. Obviously an over simplification as these are analog devices and not Boolean but the point remains. How is the actual valve position relevant. As far as I’m aware the logic or computer isn’t determining waste gate output based on flow rate. To utilize that properly you need to know exactly what the exhaust flow rate is which obviously changes drastically very quickly. Doesn’t seem like an ideal controls strategy thus making waste gate valve position irrelevant. The PID is controlling to a set psi, not a set flow. You also mentioned compressor shaft speed. That could relatively easily be handled as well by some additional inputs in the PID controller. None of which again for the umpteenth time care about flow, when pressure is what’s of concern… Obviously flow is important but as far as the PID control loop is concerned, not so much.
Ah ok now I understand what you were saying and I agree that the valve position doesnt matter when the controller is looking at MAP or shaft speed. I thought you meant that the valve postion doesnt matter from a flow standpoint.
@@motoiq a nice PID control would utilize shaft speed and valve position solely for error control IMHO. For example shaft speed gets to high, open the waste gate, valve position isn’t properly responding open waste gate, drop fuel. Save the engine, save the turbo. Other than that, that’s all I can see it’s relevant for. you could even use the shaft speed for boost leak detection, if shaft speed were high, vale was closed and MAP was low, one could infer there is a boost leak. In which case you still want to open the waste gate and or cut fuel.
Looks like your going to need another engine bay to have enough room for those mount
On the other hand, it's not any bigger than wastegates just a few years ago!
@@motoiq on the other hand electronics always fails under extreme temperatures and or vibration
Not if they are properly designed for the conditions. Regular wastegates can easily fail due to high temperatures as well.
The future of boost control is no boost conyrol. Look at the hlava sequential turbo manifold. You run a small turbo for immediate response low RPM and a big tutbo that is too big for your engine if ran alone that wont over boost at high RPM and thus wont need boost control. Zero exhaust waste system. Go check out the manifold from absolute manufacturing. It has exhaust valves that shut off exhaust to the small turbo and redirect all exhaust to the big turbo so there is no parasitic drain put on the exhaust like with a normal sequential turbo manifold setup.
You still need boost control in a sequential turbo. Wastegates also do more than just manage boost, they also manage backpressure.
@@motoiq please checkout their wastegateless system and tell me what you think 🙏. Two turbos zero wastegates.
ua-cam.com/video/ij-Z1a2mWFo/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
They run a big turbo that would lag too much to be useful alone on that engine. Under low RPM it spools both the small turbo and the large turbo but after the big turbo is spooled it has valves that shut off flow to the small turbo and redirects all exhaust gas to the large turbo for the top end. They claim that with the appropriate large turbo selection that no wastegate is needed as that big of a turbo can't overboost the engine and they have the running concept on their 3000gt.
A properly designed system with a wategate will work better and have a wider powerband with less complication and less weight.
$1,200 vs $120 is a huge price difference for a simple wastegate.
What good external wastegate is $120? The ebay fake TiAl's for cheap are not good wastegates.
@@motoiq The real tial and the ebay 1s are 40 or atleast thats what the prices where a while back. I keep forgetting everything has gone through the roof price wise like my 4 new tires i just got today were 80 bucks each last time this time they were 165. Things are getting ridiculous which is why a 1,200 dollar wastegate is even more ridiculous. I like em just not the price.
Real TiAl's are not anywhere close to $40, more like 10x that, here is a good street price on a real one. This is also the smalish 44mm. www.full-race.com/tial-mvr-44mm-external-wastegate?gclid=CjwKCAjw-eKpBhAbEiwAqFL0mqK6FB3UBiyHMlOIVkJfrvhkdKvzv56pNWA8jsur2kgO_mNM-4w1kRoC_9kQAvD_BwE
They are a great idea but ive seen alllot of failures and blowing peoples engines up. 1. new tech ovbiously needs tested and it will eventually get there. 2, the peoples that have blown up probibly shoudl have had faster acting boost cuts. so pros and cons
I believe they have very little warranty, like next to none, maybe someone from Turbosmart can answer this.
Gates dont blow engine up - people do ;-)@@motoiq
Are we sure that using the word linnier with respect to this type of valve is the correct wording. if flow is linier it is linier to what? certainly not valve possition with this valve. Maybe saying that with the electronic control we have over this valve we can obtain a very smooth rate of flow change accross the valve. Or are gear heads not smart enough for this?
More linear flow compared to traditional poppet style wastegates. You are welcome to review our technical data sheets where we openly share our flow data. We have them available for both poppet and butterfly style wastegates.
For the StraightGate, it is as near linear as possible. The flow chart is available in the data sheet on the website.
thanks for the trouble to reply. cheers.@@TurbosmartHQ
Thanks for the trouble to reply.Cheers
Except they cant be controlled out of the box by holley efi, and by time i buy the black box this is at least $1500! Turbosmart should put in the time to develop a work instruction on how to directly pwm these from popular efi systems
They operate from a 0-12vdc signal and cannot accept a PWM directly. Ideally, the ecu manufacturer would update their software to support new technology. ;-)
@@martystaggs6948 when the waste gate costs as much as the entire ECU and harness I expect them to play ball
ya I was going say...I mean if you use like a eboost to control it I guess its a good idea, aka standalone boost control.
This seems like cheating, and I LIKE that! 👍 😂
I like the idea but you need a real good setup because if someone unplugs you waste Gate or the wire burns or anything and you are not maxing out your turbo then there goes you motor
since you are running a stand alone to run the wastegate, you can have safety parameters programed into it.
If someone unplugs your wastegate and you do not have any way to have the ECM notify you then it would be up to the overboost protection protocol in your ECU to help avoid catastrophic failure. Overboost protections should be in place regardless if using an electronic or pneumatic wastegate.
If you burn wires then that sounds more like negligent use. Aside from an actual fire in the engine bay, we have not come across anyone burning wires since usually people take precautionary measures to protect them.
Sort of the same thing as if someone disconnects or if the hose to your actuator burns up!
Future??
They have been used in production cars for years now!
True. Racers are a lot harder on their parts and these are basically for competition.
Available for aftermarket
^ This
The future for motorsports. As mentioned in the video, electronic actuators are nothing new on OE applications. These are designed for hardcore motorsports applications. That being said, they would work just fine for the highly modified street car as well.
Boost is in the past…
Until they don’t work
When the prices become more reasonable... Sure... but $800-1000 for an exhaust door is crazy
If that is the issue, then this isnt your kind of product.
@@motoiq clearly! I’m good with the old fashioned 2 port for now. I’m just getting to drive my wire lol
800-1000 for a accurate waste gate that can potentially save an engine that cost thousands of dollars seems to be cheap insurance. But what do I know!
Old news; My 2007 Ford Transit Connect diesel van, has an electronically controlled wastegate…
But not a big high capacity motorsports level external wastegate, this is the first in that market.
I want to see two on Leroy! #cleetusmcfarland