We-us-or the guys at the Prancing Pony Podcast… or perhaps one of Tolkien’s relatives out to write a heroic extra-enchanted deep personal story line for Bill. Fabio-level fan fiction. Like, we should make him greater than the king of the eagles, and he could have a secret love with Shadowfax. We should do this. 😊😂 just keep Amazon away from our project
"Let me risk a little more light..." One of the most powerful moments of the LotR movies is when the Fellowship enters the Dwarrowdelf and Gandalf gives them just hint of how great the Hall was. The combination of imagery and Howard Shore's masterful score is perfect.
I think you raised a fair point by saying that the dwarves are not to blame for awaking the balrog. Indeed they did what dwarves do. It's no stranger that for a hobbit to have second breakfast.
Hobbiton, you fear to go into that shire, the Hobbits devoured too greedily, and too often. You know what they awoke at the tables of Westfarthing. Shadow and Flame!
In a way, yes. But let's not forget about the seven rings of power. While it's said that the rings given to the seven kings of the Dwarves couldn't dominate and enslave them, they did make them really, really greedy. And that's clearly a thing Tolkien hated. Greed for power and wealth is essentially the ultimate sin in Tolkiens works. And this greed caused the Dwarves to get exiled from both Moria and Erebor. And Durin's folk isn't the only kingdom of the Dwarves with that problem; four of the seven rings get destroyed by dragon fire. So... I think Tolkien clearly meant to say that the Dwarves are at least to blame for taking the rings and using them to accommodate absurd wealth.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Rings of power made dwarves more hungry for treasures, but most dwarves were like that even without them. Remember Thorin and his desire for Arcikam - the "heart of the Lonely mountain". It is safe to assume that rings have no direct bad influence over dwarfes - at best they served as a driving force and additional motivators, but there were no wars between dwarven clans based on them, not dwarves invaded outer world for its riches based on "extensive greed" etc. Even destruction of such civilisation came by external forces - in Moria from Balrog (who t.f. could have expected THAT to be down there?!) and Lonely mountain was pillaged by a dragon who heard of great wealth. There were effects on some of the rulers (bad sleep, too treasure-dependent), but overall it had much lesser impact compared to rings given to race of men. ____ Side note - Gandalf+Balrog are using "eternal staircase" to escape from bases of mountains to the highest peak of Moria. If you remember, down there was the soulcrushing-cold water basin where old nameless creatures from the bring of time dwelled -> creatures lie, for example, the "watcher". Yet dwarves were able to get down there and BUILD A FRICKIN SOLID STAIRCASE in the process, only to find out there is nothing to mine down there and no way of continuing, so they abandoned it afterwards. Digging "too deep and too greedily" is hardly a case for awakening Balrog to be honest. Because those tough buggers were able to deal with really nasty creatures (to defeat them or at least prevent them from swarming their home through their own-built corridors). And that is a feat of itself!
I think Tolkein's subtle implication is that their greed (both innate and from the rings) did cause their downfall, albeit indirectly. The problem wasn't that they were digging and accumulating wealth; it's that they began to do it to the exclusion of all else. For example, if the dwarves dug more slowly and were more well-rounded in their pursuits, then perhaps one dwarf would have developed a deep-enough interest in history and magical lore to discern that a belrog might be deep beneath the mountain. Or, perhaps an actual dwarf who did have those interests would have had enough time to work it out. Or, perhaps a dwarf who did work it out and raise concerns would have been heeded. In short, the dwarves may have forsaken their epistemic and civil responsibilities in a myopic pursuit of wealth.
@@mvmlego1212I tend to agree. Hot take, if the Balrog attacked one of the gates, it very well may have been slain. But it came from within, places that in their hasty greed would have not been guarded at all. Caution and prep for the unknown depths might have even saved them as well, but the ring smothered all but their innate greed.
The Elves are quick to point out the greed that drove the Dwarves into digging all the way down to the Balrog. But seemingly even quicker to forget that they had a kingdom of their own that greatly benefitted from the digging. Celeborn likes to blame the Dwarves for what happened, but comfortably rules a realm that can only exist in its current form because of the friendship between Khazad-Dum and Eregion, which made the forging of Nenya possible. Galadriel's memory seems to be better in that regard, maybe because she's wearing this ring, made of mithril, at all times.
It's like the straw that broke the camels back for Celeborn. I think it likely he was in Doriath when the dwarves killed Thingol, and he hasn't forgotten it. Also, Galadriel is Noldo. They have always had more of an affinity with the dwarves, as fellow craftsmen and apprentices of Aulë.
The Elves also like to judge the Men for their power hungry foolishness while happily forgetting the atrocities committed by Feanor and his stupid sons. The elves have always been sanctimonious hypocrites. They are lucky they’re daddy Eru’s favorite, because otherwise they’d never have lasted.
there was ocasions before that the elfs and dwarf did clash, the most famous would be the killing of Thingol and the fall of his realm afther this since his wife was not able to hold up the veil defending their realm alone. that was one of the most important of the realms of the elf at the time because a lot of the realms had falled to morgaths orcs and other monsters. there was also a dwarf that betrayed an important human that was a elf friend if i remember correctly that was quite important in one of the 3 old human houses and probably some other events. also thingol was an realy importent character for the elfs beeing 1 of the 3 that was the first to see valinor before morgoths first fall but was later ensnared by the singing of a maia that would be his wife later on (you can read the storys in question in the silmarillion, its worth a read but be warned that its not a easy book to read)
@@stingerjohnny9951Actually, Fëanor and his sons weren't liked among the other Noldor. Galadriel didn't like Fëanor and he was her uncle. Especially after the Doom of Mandos, Fëanor and his sons were basically on their own except for their followers.
Greetings from Sweden! I once again read the Lord of the Rings, and during the part where the Hobbits visit Tom Bombadil, I noticed how Tolkien placed a special weight in songs, and how when they were happy, they also often sang songs. As if there was a clear connection between being singing and being happy. Also, during the Hobbit after the Dwarfs sang the song, Bilbo felt a great desire to get out of the Shire and "see the Mountains". Elves have a special connection to songs too. Always when Elves are seen walking towards the Grey Havens they are also singing. Additionally during the several tkmes visiting Rivendell, there was always some song that was sung. Tolkien seems to have a very special relation with songs and clearly places a specifik emphasis on their effect. There's loads to unpack here!
Before recorded music we in this middle earth would sing a lot more too. In many ways we're lesser than our ancestors listen to sterile machine generated music rather than participating in it with our community.
One could argue that the Ring of Power held by the king of Khazad-dûm helped make the Dwarves so greedy for treasure than they would have otherwise been that it, in a manner of speaking, led to them awakening Durin's Bane. This would be similar to the way the hoards in another Dwarven kingdoms attracted the unwanted attentions of Dragons, with disastrous results for the Dwarves there. Of course, the Dwarves still had no way of knowing there was a Balrog hiding deep in their mines.
@@Joe_Potts I never read anything like that. Sauron's whole plan for the Rings of Power was to control the wearers through the One Ring. That didn't work out as he had hoped with the Dwarves but I'm sure he gave the Rings with the intent of them being worn. In particular, Thrór had his ring with him when Smaug drove the Dwarves from Erebor and he passed it to his son Thráin, who was eventually captured by Sauron who took the Ring back.
THANK YOU GOD THANK YOU IN DEEP GEEK MY PATIENCE HAS BEEN REWARDED. For some weird reason I cannot understand, I have such a profound calling and nostalgic feeling for Khazad Dum. Every time I see the Halls, it’s like seeing an old house you used to live in.
I don't know how much time you dedicate per video to add the closing remarks about the topic, but I have to say that out of all the channels I follow that talk about Tolkien, you are far and above the best at it. I would go as far as saying that, when it comes to video-essays, you are the best of the channels I follow! It's something that I have noticed for a while now, but never found a way to make a comment about it that was relevant to the video at hand, so I am not trying anymore.
@@jarlwhiterun7478 there are many kinds of ways of making videos and video-essays are just a specific kind. Why would I not specify it when that’s the kind I’m talking about? And essays are primarily not for school. Wether you have written one after finishing school or not has nothing to do with that.
Although I consider mayself a fan of LotR, having read many books and watched all the movies (I even find the Hobitt triology entertaining enough), I decided to reread the books for the first time since the 70s. Just finnished the Moria chapters. Which is where Stalag 17 comes in. In that movie, they take the time to show had the prisoners hid the dirt when the excavated the tunnels. They had to move a lot of dirt. Which got me thinking. Moria was HUGE. Where did the dwarves pile all the dirt and rock they excavated to make those caverns? I live in the Calif Gold Rush country. There's very large piles of rocks here just from miners working the river. As much as the dwarves dug out, the refuse pile must have been as large as the mountain itself. Silly question I know, but it's a rainy day and enquiring minds want to know.
"...Until the world grew old..." If our world is not yet old, perhaps they are in Khazadum still under some weathered and eroded and unrecognizable ancient mountain range.
Well, Arda isn't meant to actually be our world. Though that was the initial idea, right? To make a mythology of Earth that Tolkien felt England lacked? I do like to muse on that idea sometimes, like "what if Lord of the Rings was our actual past?" and how to connect the dots to more recent history.
I like that you weave in screenshots from LOTRO into many of your videos. Having played that game since beta in 2007, it gives me a sense of familiarity and intimacy as I enjoy your insightful comments.
i absolutely love that image at 1:50. It's the first time I see a dwarven city depicted with greenery and lights. Very refreshing, and probably accurate. I'm fascinated by dwarven underground kingdoms in part because I can't quite fathom how it all works out. How do you actually build it? Where are the houses? How are they arranged? Do they have streets? Do they have sunlight? Do they farm? This picture made it a little easier to grasp for some reason.
I believe it's actually a screenshot from Rings of Power, the amazon tv show. The story writing may have been atrocious, but at least the visuals were amazing, and in some ways even make up for it.
Whether it can be considered “canon” or not, I don’t know, but S2 of the Rings of Power shows how the interior of Moria was illuminated via a clever system of giant mirrors that directed and spread sunlight inside. Not a huge fan of the series but I did like that scene. It reminded me of that village in Norway that uses a giant mirror for the same purpose, as the village is nestled deep in a valley between steep mountains that block the sun for much of the day.
@@owen-trombone Ya, I wouldn't considered any of RoP cannon but I remember somewhere in the books they mentioned some sort of candle or torch that didn;t go out.
i did not knew the Balrog was spotted at the end of the battle of Azanulbizar, like creeping just at the gate to remind the dwarves this is his lair lol, what amazes me is that he just stood there watching until he left, a grim remainder of their greatest calamity
The title of "Durin" fascinates me. The prophecy that they will only be six Durin's implies that after the last, the Dwarves will fall. But, it's a mighty proclamation for a dwarven ruler to "style" themselves as Durin. Would some Durins be retroactively disavowed? Really interesting thought experiment. Edit* wait, there's a 7th Durin? Oops.
According to the last of Tolkien's writings, the Dwarves actually preserved the body of Durin and periodically his spirit would be reborn into it. Earlier versions have a different tale but in none of them does a Dwarven ruler get to proclaim himself Durin.
Unfortunately, we know very little about these details, because all we have are a few of his unpublished notes. But yeah. "Durin" is not a title. Either he gets reborn in a new body or his body awakes to new life. Whatever it is, it happens 7 times during their history, and then their race "fails".
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen thank you for the explanation. I wonder if the dwarves have a litmus test for reincarnated Durin's. Having a similar system not divinely determined would make for an interesting civilization in another work of fiction.
What I never quite understand is why the race of Dwarves eventually "failed" in the 4th Age. They survived wars, dragons, balrogs and then got their homeland back. Ok I understand that the story has to end that way, but of all the races it seems odd that they didn't continue with Men.
My best guess is that they dived to deep into the earth’s depths. They eventually cut themselves off from the surface world. When a tragedy like a plague did strike they had no one to turn to for help. Perhaps the younger dwarf generations didn’t even know how to get to the surface.
I think it has to do with the world growing old. It all started with Melkor corrupting Arda right at its creation, causing all magic to slowly but surely to drain from the world. Thats why elves at some point couldnt exist outside of Valinor. Only with a ring of power could that process be stopped for some time (like Galadriel or Elendil did). When they lost their power, after the One rings destruction, the elves had to finally leave or become shadows (simplified). Now with the dwarfes the process took longer but my guess is that they also couldnt adapt to a world without magic. Only humans remained at the end in Middle Earth, of the old races all but legends remaining, until they too die in a Ragnarok like event, planting the seed for a new world, more perfect than Arda and the goal, Illuvatar was working towards.
Fantastic - thanks so much Robert. I’ve been a fan of the book and the films for 50yrs and find the depth of knowledge of the characters and back story truly phenomenal, particularly yours. I picked up, on this occasion, your reference to the equality in terms of power between the Balrog and Gandalf and that both died in their epic battle - Gandalf did not defeat the Balrog as perhaps is some times lazily assumed but Gandalf too died but is Resurrected to play an even greater role in the titanic struggle that is to follow. I sort of knew this all along but it was nice to hear Robert spell it out - it makes perfect sense.🙏
The one, and only one singular thing I enjoyed about RoP. Their depiction of Khazad-Dum in it's hay-day. I think they did a great job visually with this.
Robert, sir, of all the channels devoted to middle earth I do believe that it's your work that rises above them all. They're all fine channels in their own right but yours offers a calm, serene tone that I find most enjoyable. Please keep doing what you're doing Robert.
I'm not sure where this information comes from, but in an old Lord of the Rings game (a DOS era RPG produced by Interplay, which is now abandonware free to play for anyone so inclined), Moria is depicted as having 13 levels. I forget exactly what they are called, but there's 7 floors up and 7 floors down, with the first floor of each count being the same floor. For all the limitations of the game in terms of depicting the grandeur of the place, I still fondly remember exploring the vast Mines of Moria in that game. Highly recommend the experience for folks who are into retro gaming.
Khazad-dûm means "Dwarves' delving" in Tolkien's invented dwarf language Khuzdul which is a language isolate in Middle Earth without any known related languages. Perhaps one of the Babylon 5 writers is a dwarf.
"If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die." Kosh. "I will follow your lead now-- if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" The similarities between Babylon 5 and LOTR are many. It's no wonder I loved both.
"In Moria, in Khazad-dum" Lovely video, I have such a soft spot for the dwarves - the poem Gimli recites is probably my favourite in LotR, especially as delivered by Douglas Livingstone in the BBC Radio drama.
One might speculate that it was the presence of the Balrog, buried under the mountains since the end of the first age, that was responsible for the unusual mineral deposits found beneath cruel Caradhras.
I believe so too. There is a hint that the veins of truesilver arced deeper beneath Caradhras and that the Balrog was at the end. Note also that Caradhras has been known as "the cruel mountain" for millennia, which makes me think the Balrog influenced events on the peak, even if it was not deliberate.
I disagree. If a Balrog (a Maia) could make Mithril, then Sauron (a vastly more powerful Maia) who coveted Mithril and told his Orcs to search and capture all of it, would have just made it himself.
Sauron already knew about the Balrog as many of the orcs in Moria were sent there by him. On the other hand, Durin's Bane had been hiding in the depths long before the Rings of Power were created so he knew nothing about what they were.
I wonder if the ring woke it - it slept down there with the dwarves digging just over it just fine til a bit of Sauron started swinging around there. Less a matter of digging too deep and more a matter of digging to a routine depth and smacking Cymbals of Evil around the neighbor's bedroom.
What always struck me as odd is the Balrog only fled at the end of the First Age when Moria was already long established. So what, did it sneak in the front gate or did it dive into a cave system nowhere near the mountain and slowly burrow under it. You can't exactly claim they dug too deep when the city long predates the War of Wrath. One could argue if they bumped into a nameless thing as Gandalf describes at the foundations of the earth that would be an act of hubris. But the balrog is the new newcomer not the dwarves.
@@christiangraff5236 But they only escaped there by going up through the mountain again. So yeah it had to have burrowed into the earth somewhere away from the mountain initially. Cause I mean Moria is a full staffed armored fortress city it wouldn’t go unnoticed.
Well maybe it hid in a part of the mountainrange, that wasnt yet colonized by the dwarfes, so the city may have simply grown above him. Or maybe it just teleported to the safest spot it could find in a hurry, after all we dont really know what Maiar are cabable of.
I think it was within the foundations of earth it fled to which is under Moria. And it wasn’t until they dig deep enough that they discovered the balrog. It’s basically where the nameless things and all the other monsters of middle earth live and where the balrog was able to remain hidden for so long.
You know you've got a great city when it can be constructed near the dawn of time, and survive until the very breaking of the world, with just a few hundred years of darkness to blight it's great story.
After the events of The Hobbit, Balin (who is a cousin of Gimli) leads an expedition to reclaim Moria. They don't really expect a large resistance, because it's said that the Orcs left for Mordor. And they don't know that "Durin's Bane" is still in Moria. (Nobody had seen that thing for ~1,000 years.) When the fellowship decides to enter Moria (a few years after Balin's expedition), Gandalf is the only one who fears that the expedition failed, because he suspects that the Balorg is still there. Gandalf doesn't explain himself, though. He just says, he don't want to go through Moria, but there's no other choice. Gimli however assumes that Balin reclaimed Moria a few years ago, cleaned up the whole place, was probably joined by other Dwarves in the meantime, and they will all have a great family reunion party in their old home. Turns out, Balin's expedition was initially successful, but then the Balrog took notice and everyone was slaughtered.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Let me correct few details. After Balins expedition, there are more then "few years". Just count with me - Bilbo set of in age of 50 from Hobbiton, returning in his 51st year of life. He celebrates his 111th birthdays when Frodo reaches adulthood (33) and Frodo sets of to Rivendell aged 52 iirc. That is almost 80 years between retaking Erebor and FotR. Balin´s expedition left around 55 years after retaking of Erebor. So there is around 25 years long gap. To be fair, the gap is even shorter. It is said in the books that "at first good news were coming back", probably even for a few years. Then all communication stopped. But no message was ever received about war, fights, isolation, orc attacks ... anything. Just "radio silence". And it has been like that for about 2 decades at least. It is a side-quest of its own why Gimli came to Rivendell, btw. Main reason were Sauron´s offer and search for the Ring found by Bilbo (news has reached Mordor by this point), so they wanted to warn elves and Bilbo this way as well (as he haven´t been their way for some time). But Gimli also went there to ask if anyone knows something about Moria and Balin´s party, as orcs were swarming mountains and forests again and it was not safe to travel. But Moria was a fortress that could and did stand on its own for thousands of years. Sadly, no news were there for Gimli. And I am not even sure that Balrog was involved in ending of Balin´s (short lived) kingdom. There is no record about him in the Book of Mazarbul, either. Only about orcs and drums. No shadow, no flame, no "demon". And I would suppose dwarves would mention such type of creature in their battle records, especially if those are the last words they will ever be able write. The thing that drove out Balrog to go against the Fellowship was - ironically - Gandalf himself. Remember; Gandalf is a powerfull being. He can battle on long distances with Sauron, can perform battle of wills, he can even summon a Shadowfax from an opposing side of Middle earth telepathically so he comes for him. It is only reasonable to suppose that Maiar can sense powerfull auras of each other (besides other things). And the Balrog was basically defending "his eternal lair" against a powerfull invader (something he didn´t need to do against relatively small group of dwarves, cause he doesn´t care that much). That is why, when orcs were awaken and were going after the Fellowship, Balrog himself joined his worshippers/minions and went after Gandalf personally. And was winning initially, btw (Gandalf was defeated when holding a magic barrier of backdoors to Mazarbul in the book). Last piece of a puzzle - after the great battle in front of gates of Moria, "Durin´s bane" is seen standing in the gates of Moria and that is what prevents dwarves in tries to reclaim it, they realised they had no chance. So they won against orcs and Balrog´s worshippers, but couldn´t go further. But when Balin reaches Moria and they start clearing it, no signs of Durin´s bane presence were ever found. Due to (very!) limited knowledge about Bane´s true nature and background, they could have simply assumed it died/moved out inbetween. After all, this was the last Balrog in the whole Middle Earth. Or used to be? They could have never been sure, as proving nonexistence of something is pretty hard. And again - no news about such creature (or bad news in total) came back to Erebor in first years. So yes, while Gandalf was afraid of bad end to Balin´s attempt, he wasn´t sure as he as well had no news in that regard. And Gimli was optimistic. Only when they entered and saw mixed corpses of orcs and dwarves behind (now destroyed) Western gate of Moria, it was clear that something is wrong - dwarves would never left their fellows bodies to rot side by side with orcs. Those corpses left there therefore meant that either a) nobody knew about this group and weren´t looking for it in a long time = dwarves are too thin in count or too scattered in Moria (bad news as well) b) there is noone left to arrange for a burial despite knowing about group travelling this way The latter was the case. Desperate attempt of dwarves was made to escape through "back doors" when defenses were crumbling - they sent out Oin to find and examine the path to western gate. Only four dwarves returned with bad news. "We still hold the chamber but hope is fading now. Óin's party went five days ago but today only four returned. The pool is up to the wall at West-gate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin - we cannot get out." is stated in book of Mazarbul. At that point the last hope failed. Noone could get out, noone could get the news to any living friendly being outside of Moria. Dwarves were trapped inside their largest settlement and masacred to the last.
One more thing I'd like to add: as was pointed out the balrog was spotted after the battle outside the gates of Moria, which is not 1000 years before Lord of the Rings, but more like 100-130. There were dwarves that took part in that battle that were still alive during Lord of the Rings. Even so it was of course a fair assumption by Balin that it might not be there anymore.
My personal headcanon regarding mithril is that it's the solidified blood of the Balrog itself. That would explain why mithril is seemingly only found beneath Khazad-dum, why it was only discovered in the Second Age (after Morgoth's final defeat at the end of the First Age), and why the mithril veins ultimately led to the Balrog. This would also account for the substance's incredible properties, since it's the blood of a divine - albeit fallen - being.
Interesting idea, however i feel like since the Maiar that were turned into the Balrogs had been evil/corrupted for so long, wouldn't their blood be heavy and dark, in contrast to the lightweight and brightly shining properties of mithril? Just a thought
It would be pretty awesome to visit Khazad-dum in the age when elves were friends of dwarves. What a magnificent, cosmopolitan place that would be. I can imagine haggling in the marketplace, or the privilege of becoming an apprentice to a dwarven craftsman. 😊
Check out Clamavi de Profundis perform "Song of Durin" (complete edition). It's Incredible. If you're watching this you'll enjoy it! Also the song/poem is incorporated into "Far over the misty mountains cold - complete edition" and I think that recording might be even better.
What i find really amazing is Glorfindel also dueled a balrog to the death , killing it and dying in the process, and was allowed to return to middle earth.
When did they open the gates after closing them? Bypassing the "what'd they do for food?" question. Where'd they put all the Rock and dirt they dug up? There should be mountain-sized rocks and dirt piles outside the gates. If they dumped it in the chasm near the East Gate, they'd fill it up.
Awesome history. Do you have a film on what exactly a Balrog is? How many there are, the history and also something on Durin's Bane? Somthing in deep Balrog :) I know I can look for that on youtube but I keep coming back to you :)
I agree about "too greedily and too deep". Very "benefit of hindsight". They were miners, not hunter gatherers. Difficult to imagine humans delving less, and without the beautifying efforts. But I also have doubts about the Balrog being out of the league of all but Gandalf. It kind of denies the history of Glorfindel, and who did he have to help him, and what less success did he have? Even in Glorfindel's later and more powerful incarnation, he was sent out because he could stand against The Nine, a task Gandalf and Aragorn did more or less equally between them. Had Gandalf not been with the company, they would have faced the Balrog together, and had it been Tolkien's narrative intention, they might have succeeded.
Why did it take only one balrog to take down Khazad-Dum, but a whole army and multiple balrogs to take down that ancient elvish hidden city. Didn’t dwarves slay dragons in the first age?
Also thanks for clearing up that bit about “digging too greedily” that also never sat well with me as it implied that the dwarves were somehow careless a😊
Here's a question, why would the west gate be written in the language the password is in AND have the password be in the inscription. Like, all Gandalf had to do was read it in its original language and they would've gotten into the mines much earlier. Possibly even avoiding the Watcher or the orcs being alerted later on.
How did this great city of dwarves feed the population? The only way in and out were two relatively small gates? Feeding those hundreds of thousands of dwarves? And once the gates were closed, they didn't even have those routes for incoming supplies. So how come they didnt starve?
Indoor gardens? Mushrooms? Boars to make mulch and methane? Calamari from Kraken offspring? Stray orcs that Tolkien didn't feel were required to be expounded upon in the narrative? It is said the Blue Wizards went East.. Hmmm..
Wait so Durin's Folk, the longbeards lost Khazad-Dum, then founded a new home, the Kingdom of Erebor. Only for them to expelled again. Man talk about unlucky. Surely they must have believed they were a cursed people. Robert, I'd like to see a video delving into the lore of the other six dwarf peoples if there is enough lore to have a dedicated video. Brilliant vid as usual.
The name change was in TA 1980. Balin reclaimed Moria 1000 years later in 2989. The last Gimli knew of Moria, Balin had reclaimed it, and he assumed Balin was still living in Moria. He didn't know about his death yet.
Robert, I'd just like to say that your content is always appreciated and highly anticipated. These videos are a joy. Please continue to do what you do. Much love from Texas, US.
I think, with that quote about them fading, that their end is quite a sad one. Men keep living, and they inherit all of Middle Earth as magic fades from it, but dwarves just go extinct? That's awfully sad, especially knowing they weren't made by Eru Illuvatar - like they were always second-class citizens of their own world, in a way.
I've had a problem about an element of this story starting with my first read way back in 1968. The Dwarves pull into isolation for literally thousands of years. What did they eat?
Could you imagine instead of a quarter of a billion spent on steaming pile of "Rings of Profits" but actually did a faithful fully realized handdrawn animations of the entire series in chapters BUT interspersed within the retelling could be an option to tell other tales from different eras (simillirion, foundational tales, poems set to original music) with different artists styles as well as ways to further develop the cannon material. Through careful and dedicated retelling of them through cannon, this would allow them to stretch these out in half hour shows for 10-15 years easily without having to drop a single stain of ink that wasn't original works and with the money put towards spectacular drawings that would have inspired a generation, in a way that WILL never be recaptured in a live motion film again without the Sauron of modern motion pictures the ever watchful eye of CGI ruining it FOREVER. This could have allowed them to spin it off in a billion different ways for comics, drawings, posters, limited series, artist doing musical renderings, specialty toys, specialty clothes, specialty Lord of the rings, Prints and on and on and on and on where they could have actually used the intellectual property they had purchased to stay true to the original but actually make it much better than the shaky cam of s***** CGI that Peter Jackson had to accept because there was no way to do it while having the grandiosity of everything else at the same time. Wasn't Peter's fault but f****** do I hate the s***** shaky cam and the 10 years of s***** shaky cams, I've had to endure with CGI as a result of how much f****** money they made. Now Amazon will completely take this amazing and wonderful story through greed and the usual unbelievable idiocy and ego of studio executives that will stop at nothing to destroy every single thing out there f****** possible. The only thing I take sice in is that all of this will eventually lead us to nuclear annihilation and those douchebags are either going to get vaporized with us or, if I have my wish, they will be trapped in a golden bunker with the very people they f***** out of a future and realize that they have to depend on the very people they've exploited their entire life who's families they let die outside........ But I'm not bitter;)
oh so they chose a cave with one door in and one narrow bridge for defense? Since you mentioned in another video that they did traded for food... I wonder how long they could last with their supplies under the siege with most basic tactics :)
Hi Robert, I have a video request. What would have happened in the confrontation between Gandalf and the Balrog, had it been Gandalf the white? Thanks!
I can only assume Babylon 5's Shadow homeworld, Z'ha'dum draws its inspiration from Khazad-Dum. A long lost and ancient city buried deep under ground, guarded by unspeakable horrors.
Greed is a difficult word. Its often thrown about as place card for a lack of impulse control. When we say someone was motivated by greed, it is not meant to encourage further examination. I personally believe greed is often abused. How many people could flesh out the behaviour often described as greed? I do not believe a lack of impulse control is sufficient to understand many long term forms of behaviour that involve profound selfishness as the expense of others. When people feel entitled to more than their fair share of anything, there is obviously more going on than simply wanting 'more'. Gollum is motivated by greed, but also envy to murder his cousin and take the ring for himself. Setting aside the power of the ring, there is more going on in Gollum, than simply wanting the ring.
I've already watched 8 minutes on Bill the Pony. I can't skip this one.
Hahahha! Well said. That video changed my life. All Hail Bill. Lord of Ponies.
@@ikenosis8160🫡 🐎
Fantastic.
We-us-or the guys at the Prancing Pony Podcast… or perhaps one of Tolkien’s relatives out to write a heroic extra-enchanted deep personal story line for Bill. Fabio-level fan fiction. Like, we should make him greater than the king of the eagles, and he could have a secret love with Shadowfax. We should do this. 😊😂 just keep Amazon away from our project
That Balrog is lucky that Bill the Pony didn't get through the West Gate with the Fellowship.
"Let me risk a little more light..."
One of the most powerful moments of the LotR movies is when the Fellowship enters the Dwarrowdelf and Gandalf gives them just hint of how great the Hall was. The combination of imagery and Howard Shore's masterful score is perfect.
The greatest depiction of the grandeur of Moria can be found in LOTRO
Its my favourite moment, and music piece. Just the gravity of it. Everyone is stunned, even Gimli, and he's seen Erebor restored.
Always made me want to see it before Durin VI's time.
@jackpowell9276 Gimli is more awed than the rest.
I love it
I think you raised a fair point by saying that the dwarves are not to blame for awaking the balrog. Indeed they did what dwarves do. It's no stranger that for a hobbit to have second breakfast.
Hobbiton, you fear to go into that shire, the Hobbits devoured too greedily, and too often. You know what they awoke at the tables of Westfarthing. Shadow and Flame!
In a way, yes. But let's not forget about the seven rings of power. While it's said that the rings given to the seven kings of the Dwarves couldn't dominate and enslave them, they did make them really, really greedy. And that's clearly a thing Tolkien hated. Greed for power and wealth is essentially the ultimate sin in Tolkiens works. And this greed caused the Dwarves to get exiled from both Moria and Erebor. And Durin's folk isn't the only kingdom of the Dwarves with that problem; four of the seven rings get destroyed by dragon fire.
So... I think Tolkien clearly meant to say that the Dwarves are at least to blame for taking the rings and using them to accommodate absurd wealth.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Rings of power made dwarves more hungry for treasures, but most dwarves were like that even without them. Remember Thorin and his desire for Arcikam - the "heart of the Lonely mountain". It is safe to assume that rings have no direct bad influence over dwarfes - at best they served as a driving force and additional motivators, but there were no wars between dwarven clans based on them, not dwarves invaded outer world for its riches based on "extensive greed" etc.
Even destruction of such civilisation came by external forces - in Moria from Balrog (who t.f. could have expected THAT to be down there?!) and Lonely mountain was pillaged by a dragon who heard of great wealth.
There were effects on some of the rulers (bad sleep, too treasure-dependent), but overall it had much lesser impact compared to rings given to race of men.
____
Side note - Gandalf+Balrog are using "eternal staircase" to escape from bases of mountains to the highest peak of Moria. If you remember, down there was the soulcrushing-cold water basin where old nameless creatures from the bring of time dwelled -> creatures lie, for example, the "watcher". Yet dwarves were able to get down there and BUILD A FRICKIN SOLID STAIRCASE in the process, only to find out there is nothing to mine down there and no way of continuing, so they abandoned it afterwards. Digging "too deep and too greedily" is hardly a case for awakening Balrog to be honest. Because those tough buggers were able to deal with really nasty creatures (to defeat them or at least prevent them from swarming their home through their own-built corridors).
And that is a feat of itself!
I think Tolkein's subtle implication is that their greed (both innate and from the rings) did cause their downfall, albeit indirectly. The problem wasn't that they were digging and accumulating wealth; it's that they began to do it to the exclusion of all else.
For example, if the dwarves dug more slowly and were more well-rounded in their pursuits, then perhaps one dwarf would have developed a deep-enough interest in history and magical lore to discern that a belrog might be deep beneath the mountain. Or, perhaps an actual dwarf who did have those interests would have had enough time to work it out. Or, perhaps a dwarf who did work it out and raise concerns would have been heeded.
In short, the dwarves may have forsaken their epistemic and civil responsibilities in a myopic pursuit of wealth.
@@mvmlego1212I tend to agree. Hot take, if the Balrog attacked one of the gates, it very well may have been slain. But it came from within, places that in their hasty greed would have not been guarded at all.
Caution and prep for the unknown depths might have even saved them as well, but the ring smothered all but their innate greed.
The Elves are quick to point out the greed that drove the Dwarves into digging all the way down to the Balrog. But seemingly even quicker to forget that they had a kingdom of their own that greatly benefitted from the digging.
Celeborn likes to blame the Dwarves for what happened, but comfortably rules a realm that can only exist in its current form because of the friendship between Khazad-Dum and Eregion, which made the forging of Nenya possible. Galadriel's memory seems to be better in that regard, maybe because she's wearing this ring, made of mithril, at all times.
It's like the straw that broke the camels back for Celeborn. I think it likely he was in Doriath when the dwarves killed Thingol, and he hasn't forgotten it. Also, Galadriel is Noldo. They have always had more of an affinity with the dwarves, as fellow craftsmen and apprentices of Aulë.
Propagandelves
The Elves also like to judge the Men for their power hungry foolishness while happily forgetting the atrocities committed by Feanor and his stupid sons.
The elves have always been sanctimonious hypocrites. They are lucky they’re daddy Eru’s favorite, because otherwise they’d never have lasted.
there was ocasions before that the elfs and dwarf did clash, the most famous would be the killing of Thingol and the fall of his realm afther this since his wife was not able to hold up the veil defending their realm alone. that was one of the most important of the realms of the elf at the time because a lot of the realms had falled to morgaths orcs and other monsters. there was also a dwarf that betrayed an important human that was a elf friend if i remember correctly that was quite important in one of the 3 old human houses and probably some other events. also thingol was an realy importent character for the elfs beeing 1 of the 3 that was the first to see valinor before morgoths first fall but was later ensnared by the singing of a maia that would be his wife later on (you can read the storys in question in the silmarillion, its worth a read but be warned that its not a easy book to read)
@@stingerjohnny9951Actually, Fëanor and his sons weren't liked among the other Noldor. Galadriel didn't like Fëanor and he was her uncle. Especially after the Doom of Mandos, Fëanor and his sons were basically on their own except for their followers.
Imagine having lived there in its glory days, then having to see it crawling with orcs in later years, would have been terrible😢
The balrog being the icing on the cake..
Reminds me of modern day America and Europe
@@drugsmadillai know what u mean.
@@drugsmadillaimagine comparing your fellow man to orcs 😂😂😂 bro is NOT seeing the pearly gates
@keygenlain a lot of parallels eh?
Robert, thank you for continuing to add Tolkien content-it is always a pleasure to spend a bit of time listening to your "deep geek" thoroughness!
Greetings from Sweden!
I once again read the Lord of the Rings, and during the part where the Hobbits visit Tom Bombadil, I noticed how Tolkien placed a special weight in songs, and how when they were happy, they also often sang songs. As if there was a clear connection between being singing and being happy.
Also, during the Hobbit after the Dwarfs sang the song, Bilbo felt a great desire to get out of the Shire and "see the Mountains".
Elves have a special connection to songs too. Always when Elves are seen walking towards the Grey Havens they are also singing. Additionally during the several tkmes visiting Rivendell, there was always some song that was sung.
Tolkien seems to have a very special relation with songs and clearly places a specifik emphasis on their effect. There's loads to unpack here!
Before recorded music we in this middle earth would sing a lot more too. In many ways we're lesser than our ancestors listen to sterile machine generated music rather than participating in it with our community.
Pbnumllliiho vbcdrulo.
One could argue that the Ring of Power held by the king of Khazad-dûm helped make the Dwarves so greedy for treasure than they would have otherwise been that it, in a manner of speaking, led to them awakening Durin's Bane. This would be similar to the way the hoards in another Dwarven kingdoms attracted the unwanted attentions of Dragons, with disastrous results for the Dwarves there. Of course, the Dwarves still had no way of knowing there was a Balrog hiding deep in their mines.
I thought the dwarves never actually used their rings though? Like didn't they just throw them into special vaults along with their other treasures?
@@Joe_Potts I never read anything like that. Sauron's whole plan for the Rings of Power was to control the wearers through the One Ring. That didn't work out as he had hoped with the Dwarves but I'm sure he gave the Rings with the intent of them being worn. In particular, Thrór had his ring with him when Smaug drove the Dwarves from Erebor and he passed it to his son Thráin, who was eventually captured by Sauron who took the Ring back.
@@istari0 i'll have to look back into the details, see where i got that idea then lol. sorry
THANK YOU GOD THANK YOU IN DEEP GEEK MY PATIENCE HAS BEEN REWARDED.
For some weird reason I cannot understand, I have such a profound calling and nostalgic feeling for Khazad Dum. Every time I see the Halls, it’s like seeing an old house you used to live in.
I don't know how much time you dedicate per video to add the closing remarks about the topic, but I have to say that out of all the channels I follow that talk about Tolkien, you are far and above the best at it. I would go as far as saying that, when it comes to video-essays, you are the best of the channels I follow!
It's something that I have noticed for a while now, but never found a way to make a comment about it that was relevant to the video at hand, so I am not trying anymore.
I second that statement
Just call them videos. He's not writing essays and getting graded on them in school.
@@jarlwhiterun7478 there are many kinds of ways of making videos and video-essays are just a specific kind. Why would I not specify it when that’s the kind I’m talking about?
And essays are primarily not for school. Wether you have written one after finishing school or not has nothing to do with that.
Nice content to close the day with
Although I consider mayself a fan of LotR, having read many books and watched all the movies (I even find the Hobitt triology entertaining enough), I decided to reread the books for the first time since the 70s. Just finnished the Moria chapters.
Which is where Stalag 17 comes in. In that movie, they take the time to show had the prisoners hid the dirt when the excavated the tunnels. They had to move a lot of dirt.
Which got me thinking. Moria was HUGE. Where did the dwarves pile all the dirt and rock they excavated to make those caverns? I live in the Calif Gold Rush country. There's very large piles of rocks here just from miners working the river. As much as the dwarves dug out, the refuse pile must have been as large as the mountain itself.
Silly question I know, but it's a rainy day and enquiring minds want to know.
pretty rock all that extra rock and sand had other uses
I also wonder what they used for all their smelling. Musta used a lot of trees - unless they used coal?
I've been obsessed with the history of Arda and the Balrogs lately. This is perfect!
"...Until the world grew old..." If our world is not yet old, perhaps they are in Khazadum still under some weathered and eroded and unrecognizable ancient mountain range.
Neanderthals or Denisovans? A fun thought I must admit.
Well, Arda isn't meant to actually be our world. Though that was the initial idea, right? To make a mythology of Earth that Tolkien felt England lacked? I do like to muse on that idea sometimes, like "what if Lord of the Rings was our actual past?" and how to connect the dots to more recent history.
Under the Canadian Shield haha
I like that you weave in screenshots from LOTRO into many of your videos. Having played that game since beta in 2007, it gives me a sense of familiarity and intimacy as I enjoy your insightful comments.
Yeah, I've only been playing for about nine months now, but I'm already at level 62 and I love that game
i absolutely love that image at 1:50. It's the first time I see a dwarven city depicted with greenery and lights. Very refreshing, and probably accurate. I'm fascinated by dwarven underground kingdoms in part because I can't quite fathom how it all works out. How do you actually build it? Where are the houses? How are they arranged? Do they have streets? Do they have sunlight? Do they farm? This picture made it a little easier to grasp for some reason.
Play some Dwarf Fortress and you can figure that out for yourself :P
I believe it's actually a screenshot from Rings of Power, the amazon tv show. The story writing may have been atrocious, but at least the visuals were amazing, and in some ways even make up for it.
Whether it can be considered “canon” or not, I don’t know, but S2 of the Rings of Power shows how the interior of Moria was illuminated via a clever system of giant mirrors that directed and spread sunlight inside. Not a huge fan of the series but I did like that scene. It reminded me of that village in Norway that uses a giant mirror for the same purpose, as the village is nestled deep in a valley between steep mountains that block the sun for much of the day.
@@owen-trombone Ya, I wouldn't considered any of RoP cannon but I remember somewhere in the books they mentioned some sort of candle or torch that didn;t go out.
i did not knew the Balrog was spotted at the end of the battle of Azanulbizar, like creeping just at the gate to remind the dwarves this is his lair lol, what amazes me is that he just stood there watching until he left, a grim remainder of their greatest calamity
Khazad-Dum having a greater Dwarf Hord than Erebor is Mind Blowing
Well, it has been around longer after all
Wonderfully told and edited, Robert!
The title of "Durin" fascinates me. The prophecy that they will only be six Durin's implies that after the last, the Dwarves will fall. But, it's a mighty proclamation for a dwarven ruler to "style" themselves as Durin. Would some Durins be retroactively disavowed? Really interesting thought experiment.
Edit* wait, there's a 7th Durin? Oops.
According to the last of Tolkien's writings, the Dwarves actually preserved the body of Durin and periodically his spirit would be reborn into it. Earlier versions have a different tale but in none of them does a Dwarven ruler get to proclaim himself Durin.
Unfortunately, we know very little about these details, because all we have are a few of his unpublished notes. But yeah. "Durin" is not a title. Either he gets reborn in a new body or his body awakes to new life. Whatever it is, it happens 7 times during their history, and then their race "fails".
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen thank you for the explanation. I wonder if the dwarves have a litmus test for reincarnated Durin's. Having a similar system not divinely determined would make for an interesting civilization in another work of fiction.
The changes made in The Hobbit movies around the War of the Dwarves and Orcs were probably the biggest mistake in my opinion...
I fully agree. While it does make the films interesting, it does ruin the legitimacy of the story.
What I never quite understand is why the race of Dwarves eventually "failed" in the 4th Age. They survived wars, dragons, balrogs and then got their homeland back. Ok I understand that the story has to end that way, but of all the races it seems odd that they didn't continue with Men.
My best guess is that they dived to deep into the earth’s depths. They eventually cut themselves off from the surface world. When a tragedy like a plague did strike they had no one to turn to for help. Perhaps the younger dwarf generations didn’t even know how to get to the surface.
I think it has to do with the world growing old. It all started with Melkor corrupting Arda right at its creation, causing all magic to slowly but surely to drain from the world. Thats why elves at some point couldnt exist outside of Valinor. Only with a ring of power could that process be stopped for some time (like Galadriel or Elendil did). When they lost their power, after the One rings destruction, the elves had to finally leave or become shadows (simplified). Now with the dwarfes the process took longer but my guess is that they also couldnt adapt to a world without magic. Only humans remained at the end in Middle Earth, of the old races all but legends remaining, until they too die in a Ragnarok like event, planting the seed for a new world, more perfect than Arda and the goal, Illuvatar was working towards.
@@Daniel-rd6st - I assume you mean Elrond and not Elendil, though?
@@mokarokas-1727 Oh yes i did 🙂
Fantastic - thanks so much Robert. I’ve been a fan of the book and the films for 50yrs and find the depth of knowledge of the characters and back story truly phenomenal, particularly yours. I picked up, on this occasion, your reference to the equality in terms of power between the Balrog and Gandalf and that both died in their epic battle - Gandalf did not defeat the Balrog as perhaps is some times lazily assumed but Gandalf too died but is Resurrected to play an even greater role in the titanic struggle that is to follow. I sort of knew this all along but it was nice to hear Robert spell it out - it makes perfect sense.🙏
The one, and only one singular thing I enjoyed about RoP. Their depiction of Khazad-Dum in it's hay-day. I think they did a great job visually with this.
Robert, sir, of all the channels devoted to middle earth I do believe that it's your work that rises above them all. They're all fine channels in their own right but yours offers a calm, serene tone that I find most enjoyable. Please keep doing what you're doing Robert.
I´d like to recommend to every viewer of this video to check out "Song of Durin" by Clamavi di Profundis. Beautiful recap of this
AGREED!
Also, Far Over the Misty Mountains Cold (Complete Edition) is amazing. Over 20 minutes of pure Dwarven Song!
6:50 So basically, they were just mining their own business 😜
Listening to this one while working out 😊
I'm not sure where this information comes from, but in an old Lord of the Rings game (a DOS era RPG produced by Interplay, which is now abandonware free to play for anyone so inclined), Moria is depicted as having 13 levels. I forget exactly what they are called, but there's 7 floors up and 7 floors down, with the first floor of each count being the same floor. For all the limitations of the game in terms of depicting the grandeur of the place, I still fondly remember exploring the vast Mines of Moria in that game. Highly recommend the experience for folks who are into retro gaming.
Thank you Robert. Much appreciated.
Also, I was curious about the etymology of Kazad Dum. Babylon 5 had it as the homeworld of the Shadows. I wonder if they just stole it.
Well, they did respell it as: Z'ha'dum
Khazad-dûm means "Dwarves' delving" in Tolkien's invented dwarf language Khuzdul which is a language isolate in Middle Earth without any known related languages. Perhaps one of the Babylon 5 writers is a dwarf.
"If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die." Kosh.
"I will follow your lead now-- if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!"
The similarities between Babylon 5 and LOTR are many. It's no wonder I loved both.
@@eljanrimsa5843 - Yes, the on-line Encyclopedia of Arda gives "Dwarrowdelf" as a Westron/English "translation" of "Khazad-dûm.
And who dwelled in Z'ha'dum? *Lorien*. I'd call it more like an homage.
“and they took that personally”
"In Moria, in Khazad-dum" Lovely video, I have such a soft spot for the dwarves - the poem Gimli recites is probably my favourite in LotR, especially as delivered by Douglas Livingstone in the BBC Radio drama.
Yes, really enjoyed the bill one, nice to have something a little random
One might speculate that it was the presence of the Balrog, buried under the mountains since the end of the first age, that was responsible for the unusual mineral deposits found beneath cruel Caradhras.
I believe so too. There is a hint that the veins of truesilver arced deeper beneath Caradhras and that the Balrog was at the end. Note also that Caradhras has been known as "the cruel mountain" for millennia, which makes me think the Balrog influenced events on the peak, even if it was not deliberate.
I disagree. If a Balrog (a Maia) could make Mithril, then Sauron (a vastly more powerful Maia) who coveted Mithril and told his Orcs to search and capture all of it, would have just made it himself.
Excellent. As always.
What if the ring lead them to the balrog? Sauron looking to get a “general” to work with the witch king?
Sauron already knew about the Balrog as many of the orcs in Moria were sent there by him. On the other hand, Durin's Bane had been hiding in the depths long before the Rings of Power were created so he knew nothing about what they were.
I wonder if the ring woke it - it slept down there with the dwarves digging just over it just fine til a bit of Sauron started swinging around there. Less a matter of digging too deep and more a matter of digging to a routine depth and smacking Cymbals of Evil around the neighbor's bedroom.
@@jeffengel2607 When the Dwarves ran into the Balrog, the One Ring was still lost in the Anduin, quite some distance from Khazad-dûm
@@istari0 I had in mind the dwarven ring for the Balrog's wake-up.
Best channel on the best race of the best story.
What always struck me as odd is the Balrog only fled at the end of the First Age when Moria was already long established. So what, did it sneak in the front gate or did it dive into a cave system nowhere near the mountain and slowly burrow under it. You can't exactly claim they dug too deep when the city long predates the War of Wrath. One could argue if they bumped into a nameless thing as Gandalf describes at the foundations of the earth that would be an act of hubris. But the balrog is the new newcomer not the dwarves.
Perhaps it came in from where it fought gandalf?
@@christiangraff5236 But they only escaped there by going up through the mountain again. So yeah it had to have burrowed into the earth somewhere away from the mountain initially. Cause I mean Moria is a full staffed armored fortress city it wouldn’t go unnoticed.
Well maybe it hid in a part of the mountainrange, that wasnt yet colonized by the dwarfes, so the city may have simply grown above him. Or maybe it just teleported to the safest spot it could find in a hurry, after all we dont really know what Maiar are cabable of.
I think it was within the foundations of earth it fled to which is under Moria. And it wasn’t until they dig deep enough that they discovered the balrog. It’s basically where the nameless things and all the other monsters of middle earth live and where the balrog was able to remain hidden for so long.
Yyyyyyui.
Really loved this one. Well done!
Thanks for clearing up difference between Moria and Khazad-Dum. I wondered why they kept using both.
You are a great storyteller.
8:25 the dwarves: and I took that personally
I'm pretty sure I knew all about moria, but still chose to watch this for your voice 👏
What happened to the Balrog's spirit after dying?
Possibly the same thing as Saruman's?🤷♂️
Either out to the void or sent to the halls of Mandos for “re-education”.😮
Another way that R.O.P. gave me heartburn. They show the balrog being awoken in the second age.
It wasn’t their fault the Balrog was there, but they did open the barrier the Balrog had set up for itself and this paid the penalty for their action.
I always forget how horrifying even the smallest goblin is close up (8:00), gave me a bit of a shock.
Same!! I had my phone right at my face haha 🤣😅
Old J.R.R. DID make a mistake on the west gate. It specifically says “Moria” before it would have been called so
You know you've got a great city when it can be constructed near the dawn of time, and survive until the very breaking of the world, with just a few hundred years of darkness to blight it's great story.
It survived well past the breaking of the World (either the end of the First Age or the end of the Second).
@@dandiehm8414 Sorry, I meant the Dagor Dagorath.
@@Omashu2425 - I didn't think the Dagor Dagorath had happened yet.
@@earlwajenberg It hasn't. It's the end of the world. I'm saying Khazad-Dum will survive from the world's beginning to its end.
@@Omashu2425 Ah, so it's still out there, under there, somewhere. I see.
One of the only good things to come from the new mtg lotr set is Balin's Tomb. Looks amazing.
"and the dwarves took that personally..." 😄
I am so happy to see LOTR Online scenery for the example!
Why was Gimli surprised by what he found in the mines if it had been like that for hundreds of years?
After the events of The Hobbit, Balin (who is a cousin of Gimli) leads an expedition to reclaim Moria. They don't really expect a large resistance, because it's said that the Orcs left for Mordor. And they don't know that "Durin's Bane" is still in Moria. (Nobody had seen that thing for ~1,000 years.)
When the fellowship decides to enter Moria (a few years after Balin's expedition), Gandalf is the only one who fears that the expedition failed, because he suspects that the Balorg is still there. Gandalf doesn't explain himself, though. He just says, he don't want to go through Moria, but there's no other choice.
Gimli however assumes that Balin reclaimed Moria a few years ago, cleaned up the whole place, was probably joined by other Dwarves in the meantime, and they will all have a great family reunion party in their old home.
Turns out, Balin's expedition was initially successful, but then the Balrog took notice and everyone was slaughtered.
@@Nickname-hier-einfuegen Let me correct few details. After Balins expedition, there are more then "few years". Just count with me - Bilbo set of in age of 50 from Hobbiton, returning in his 51st year of life. He celebrates his 111th birthdays when Frodo reaches adulthood (33) and Frodo sets of to Rivendell aged 52 iirc. That is almost 80 years between retaking Erebor and FotR. Balin´s expedition left around 55 years after retaking of Erebor. So there is around 25 years long gap.
To be fair, the gap is even shorter. It is said in the books that "at first good news were coming back", probably even for a few years. Then all communication stopped. But no message was ever received about war, fights, isolation, orc attacks ... anything. Just "radio silence". And it has been like that for about 2 decades at least.
It is a side-quest of its own why Gimli came to Rivendell, btw. Main reason were Sauron´s offer and search for the Ring found by Bilbo (news has reached Mordor by this point), so they wanted to warn elves and Bilbo this way as well (as he haven´t been their way for some time). But Gimli also went there to ask if anyone knows something about Moria and Balin´s party, as orcs were swarming mountains and forests again and it was not safe to travel. But Moria was a fortress that could and did stand on its own for thousands of years. Sadly, no news were there for Gimli.
And I am not even sure that Balrog was involved in ending of Balin´s (short lived) kingdom. There is no record about him in the Book of Mazarbul, either. Only about orcs and drums. No shadow, no flame, no "demon". And I would suppose dwarves would mention such type of creature in their battle records, especially if those are the last words they will ever be able write.
The thing that drove out Balrog to go against the Fellowship was - ironically - Gandalf himself. Remember; Gandalf is a powerfull being. He can battle on long distances with Sauron, can perform battle of wills, he can even summon a Shadowfax from an opposing side of Middle earth telepathically so he comes for him. It is only reasonable to suppose that Maiar can sense powerfull auras of each other (besides other things). And the Balrog was basically defending "his eternal lair" against a powerfull invader (something he didn´t need to do against relatively small group of dwarves, cause he doesn´t care that much). That is why, when orcs were awaken and were going after the Fellowship, Balrog himself joined his worshippers/minions and went after Gandalf personally. And was winning initially, btw (Gandalf was defeated when holding a magic barrier of backdoors to Mazarbul in the book).
Last piece of a puzzle - after the great battle in front of gates of Moria, "Durin´s bane" is seen standing in the gates of Moria and that is what prevents dwarves in tries to reclaim it, they realised they had no chance. So they won against orcs and Balrog´s worshippers, but couldn´t go further. But when Balin reaches Moria and they start clearing it, no signs of Durin´s bane presence were ever found. Due to (very!) limited knowledge about Bane´s true nature and background, they could have simply assumed it died/moved out inbetween. After all, this was the last Balrog in the whole Middle Earth. Or used to be? They could have never been sure, as proving nonexistence of something is pretty hard. And again - no news about such creature (or bad news in total) came back to Erebor in first years.
So yes, while Gandalf was afraid of bad end to Balin´s attempt, he wasn´t sure as he as well had no news in that regard. And Gimli was optimistic.
Only when they entered and saw mixed corpses of orcs and dwarves behind (now destroyed) Western gate of Moria, it was clear that something is wrong - dwarves would never left their fellows bodies to rot side by side with orcs. Those corpses left there therefore meant that either
a) nobody knew about this group and weren´t looking for it in a long time = dwarves are too thin in count or too scattered in Moria (bad news as well)
b) there is noone left to arrange for a burial despite knowing about group travelling this way
The latter was the case. Desperate attempt of dwarves was made to escape through "back doors" when defenses were crumbling - they sent out Oin to find and examine the path to western gate. Only four dwarves returned with bad news.
"We still hold the chamber but hope is fading now. Óin's party went five days ago but today only four returned. The pool is up to the wall at West-gate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin - we cannot get out." is stated in book of Mazarbul.
At that point the last hope failed. Noone could get out, noone could get the news to any living friendly being outside of Moria. Dwarves were trapped inside their largest settlement and masacred to the last.
One more thing I'd like to add: as was pointed out the balrog was spotted after the battle outside the gates of Moria, which is not 1000 years before Lord of the Rings, but more like 100-130. There were dwarves that took part in that battle that were still alive during Lord of the Rings. Even so it was of course a fair assumption by Balin that it might not be there anymore.
Didn’t they lose the mines for just as long to the orcs?
My personal headcanon regarding mithril is that it's the solidified blood of the Balrog itself. That would explain why mithril is seemingly only found beneath Khazad-dum, why it was only discovered in the Second Age (after Morgoth's final defeat at the end of the First Age), and why the mithril veins ultimately led to the Balrog. This would also account for the substance's incredible properties, since it's the blood of a divine - albeit fallen - being.
Very interesting 🤔
Interesting idea, however i feel like since the Maiar that were turned into the Balrogs had been evil/corrupted for so long, wouldn't their blood be heavy and dark, in contrast to the lightweight and brightly shining properties of mithril? Just a thought
Chuck Norris' tears
Mithril was also found on (or rather under) the Island of Numenor, if memory serves right.
Great stuff.
Great video!
I mean, am I the only person who looks as this city and think it would suck to live there?
Jup. I need nature.
It would be pretty awesome to visit Khazad-dum in the age when elves were friends of dwarves. What a magnificent, cosmopolitan place that would be. I can imagine haggling in the marketplace, or the privilege of becoming an apprentice to a dwarven craftsman. 😊
The golden days of Moria must have been a sight to behold.
Check out Clamavi de Profundis perform "Song of Durin" (complete edition). It's Incredible. If you're watching this you'll enjoy it! Also the song/poem is incorporated into "Far over the misty mountains cold - complete edition" and I think that recording might be even better.
Nice work dude thanks
What a beautiful video ☺🙌
never understood why Balin thought he could retake Moria. Did he think the Balrog just 'went away'?
They should have added that Dwarf Mountain roller-coaster I suggested...they would still be here today.
Engagement comment for the algorithm 😁 Thank you for the video. It was fun.
I want to point out that the dwarves were in moria BEFORE the balrog
I never even thought about that. Was it really established before the war with Morgoth's balrogs? One must wonder how it got down there, then!
Good video Robert
Summary: everything was great… *AND SO IT CAME TO PASS-*
What i find really amazing is Glorfindel also dueled a balrog to the death , killing it and dying in the process, and was allowed to return to middle earth.
"They could once more mine and craft..." I see what you did there.
When did they open the gates after closing them? Bypassing the "what'd they do for food?" question. Where'd they put all the Rock and dirt they dug up? There should be mountain-sized rocks and dirt piles outside the gates. If they dumped it in the chasm near the East Gate, they'd fill it up.
Gandalf's depowered when he was in Moria but the Balrog still gets the "L"
Awesome history. Do you have a film on what exactly a Balrog is? How many there are, the history and also something on Durin's Bane? Somthing in deep Balrog :) I know I can look for that on youtube but I keep coming back to you :)
I agree about "too greedily and too deep". Very "benefit of hindsight". They were miners, not hunter gatherers. Difficult to imagine humans delving less, and without the beautifying efforts.
But I also have doubts about the Balrog being out of the league of all but Gandalf. It kind of denies the history of Glorfindel, and who did he have to help him, and what less success did he have? Even in Glorfindel's later and more powerful incarnation, he was sent out because he could stand against The Nine, a task Gandalf and Aragorn did more or less equally between them. Had Gandalf not been with the company, they would have faced the Balrog together, and had it been Tolkien's narrative intention, they might have succeeded.
Why did it take only one balrog to take down Khazad-Dum, but a whole army and multiple balrogs to take down that ancient elvish hidden city. Didn’t dwarves slay dragons in the first age?
8:49
Durin's Bane: You want some of this too old man?
The Dwarves: No!
8:08 sweet art
Also thanks for clearing up that bit about “digging too greedily” that also never sat well with me as it implied that the dwarves were somehow careless a😊
Here's a question, why would the west gate be written in the language the password is in AND have the password be in the inscription. Like, all Gandalf had to do was read it in its original language and they would've gotten into the mines much earlier. Possibly even avoiding the Watcher or the orcs being alerted later on.
Love the videos. Does anyone know the artist of the map at 2:26?
I can only imagine how beautiful Khazad-Dum after being restored after the war of the ring...
Do you have any audio books??
How did this great city of dwarves feed the population? The only way in and out were two relatively small gates? Feeding those hundreds of thousands of dwarves? And once the gates were closed, they didn't even have those routes for incoming supplies.
So how come they didnt starve?
Indoor gardens? Mushrooms? Boars to make mulch and methane? Calamari from Kraken offspring? Stray orcs that Tolkien didn't feel were required to be expounded upon in the narrative?
It is said the Blue Wizards went East..
Hmmm..
Wait so Durin's Folk, the longbeards lost Khazad-Dum, then founded a new home, the Kingdom of Erebor. Only for them to expelled again. Man talk about unlucky. Surely they must have believed they were a cursed people.
Robert, I'd like to see a video delving into the lore of the other six dwarf peoples if there is enough lore to have a dedicated video. Brilliant vid as usual.
Massive seams of Mithril running like a river through the roots of the mountain range would motivate any Dwarf
Great video congratulations
Q: Why didn’t Gimli know about the fate of khazad dum? He knew about the name change to Moria so shouldn’t he have known it was an abandoned pit?
The name change was in TA 1980. Balin reclaimed Moria 1000 years later in 2989. The last Gimli knew of Moria, Balin had reclaimed it, and he assumed Balin was still living in Moria. He didn't know about his death yet.
Robert, I'd just like to say that your content is always appreciated and highly anticipated. These videos are a joy. Please continue to do what you do. Much love from Texas, US.
I think, with that quote about them fading, that their end is quite a sad one. Men keep living, and they inherit all of Middle Earth as magic fades from it, but dwarves just go extinct? That's awfully sad, especially knowing they weren't made by Eru Illuvatar - like they were always second-class citizens of their own world, in a way.
I've had a problem about an element of this story starting with my first read way back in 1968. The Dwarves pull into isolation for literally thousands of years. What did they eat?
Could you imagine instead of a quarter of a billion spent on steaming pile of "Rings of Profits" but actually did a faithful fully realized handdrawn animations of the entire series in chapters BUT interspersed within the retelling could be an option to tell other tales from different eras (simillirion, foundational tales, poems set to original music) with different artists styles as well as ways to further develop the cannon material. Through careful and dedicated retelling of them through cannon, this would allow them to stretch these out in half hour shows for 10-15 years easily without having to drop a single stain of ink that wasn't original works and with the money put towards spectacular drawings that would have inspired a generation, in a way that WILL never be recaptured in a live motion film again without the Sauron of modern motion pictures the ever watchful eye of CGI ruining it FOREVER.
This could have allowed them to spin it off in a billion different ways for comics, drawings, posters, limited series, artist doing musical renderings, specialty toys, specialty clothes, specialty Lord of the rings, Prints and on and on and on and on where they could have actually used the intellectual property they had purchased to stay true to the original but actually make it much better than the shaky cam of s***** CGI that Peter Jackson had to accept because there was no way to do it while having the grandiosity of everything else at the same time. Wasn't Peter's fault but f****** do I hate the s***** shaky cam and the 10 years of s***** shaky cams, I've had to endure with CGI as a result of how much f****** money they made. Now Amazon will completely take this amazing and wonderful story through greed and the usual unbelievable idiocy and ego of studio executives that will stop at nothing to destroy every single thing out there f****** possible.
The only thing I take sice in is that all of this will eventually lead us to nuclear annihilation and those douchebags are either going to get vaporized with us or, if I have my wish, they will be trapped in a golden bunker with the very people they f***** out of a future and realize that they have to depend on the very people they've exploited their entire life who's families they let die outside........
But I'm not bitter;)
oh so they chose a cave with one door in and one narrow bridge for defense? Since you mentioned in another video that they did traded for food... I wonder how long they could last with their supplies under the siege with most basic tactics :)
2:22 to 2:35
4:26 to 4:39 Dante
6:24
Robert, could you please elaborate on the comment near the end about the " Elves' genocidal tendencies" (at 11:22)?
The dwarves eventually failed? What a sad thought...
Oh, well. Thanks for posting! 👍👍
"and the Dwarves took that personally" Oh boy, understatement of the age 🤣
Hi Robert, I have a video request. What would have happened in the confrontation between Gandalf and the Balrog, had it been Gandalf the white? Thanks!
I can only assume Babylon 5's Shadow homeworld, Z'ha'dum draws its inspiration from Khazad-Dum. A long lost and ancient city buried deep under ground, guarded by unspeakable horrors.
Greed is a difficult word. Its often thrown about as place card for a lack of impulse control. When we say someone was motivated by greed, it is not meant to encourage further examination. I personally believe greed is often abused. How many people could flesh out the behaviour often described as greed?
I do not believe a lack of impulse control is sufficient to understand many long term forms of behaviour that involve profound selfishness as the expense of others. When people feel entitled to more than their fair share of anything, there is obviously more going on than simply wanting 'more'.
Gollum is motivated by greed, but also envy to murder his cousin and take the ring for himself. Setting aside the power of the ring, there is more going on in Gollum, than simply wanting the ring.