Retired professor of Sound Engineering here. I totally agree with your analysis. Both “live” performances used the exact same recording of the vocals. This is not technically debatable.
I think we need a deeper and long analysis of several tracks before proving anything hereabout the Eagles. I know SOME bands have long lip synced and I totally call that fraud.
@chilitoday You're not following what he's saying/showing. It's impossible for the sections he's shown to NOT be a recording. Why would this be the only section that is lip-synced?, that makes no sense. Possible I guess. But that part, is a recording.
I agree but you are saying two things. One is the human ear can't hear the difference. The other is that they shouldn't use tech correction because it changes the feeling of the performance. Sounds contradictory but I actually agree with both.
As a former musician can say he's 100% correct. And yes, it's a big deal that such a big band deceive people. It also hursts the industry. If you wanna watch real musicians go watch local bands!
...added benefit to which is it costs a tiny fraction of the amount you'd pay to hear (or not!) someone iconic... Or you can luck in. I heard Gordon Lightfoot, pure live, in September 2022 at Toronto, for next to nothing...yes he'd faded, but still sang pretty well (including all of Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald) and put on a great show...
@@tonyosborne1720 Tons of reasons. You can retire from playing football. You're not still a footballer - you're a former footballer. Does this really need to be explained to you? 🙄
Fortunately I wasn’t holding my coffee when I read this. Perhaps if some have been to a live Chipmonks performance they could relieve our concerns. But then they might have lip-synched as well.
@@TimothyTimPSP Not for clicks; this is to put the whole thing to bed by answering genuine viewer questions and offering a final, definitive comparison using four different concerts all using the same vocal track. I feel awful for Don - it's clear he's lost the confidence (and possibly the ability) to carry off this massive crowd pleaser encore, which - as the last song of the night - will remain in the audience's memory the best. I honestly think he doesn't want to let the paying customers down, but - ironically - it's just what was bound to happen once this got out. Very sad indeed.
@@TimothyTimPSP I feel bad for Don also, because by now he must know that he didn’t get away with this fraud as cleanly as he expected to, and that must feel absolutely humiliating. But he has absolutely nobody to blame but himself, for putting his greed above his integrity. And I also feel bad for all the people he’s fleeced out of their hard-earned money.
@fromchomleystreet Well... let's not go too far on our outrage. Yes, it's dishonest, but the eagles is more than just Don. Fleeced? You don't need a bandaid for every scrape. He shouldn't have done it. He can't be trusted in the future without a lot of work and proof. That's all.
I realized that it was all a scam when most industry insiders supported Ashley Simpson after her SNL flub. That was after watching a couple much better sonic live performances then I’d ever heard. BTW, concerts were no more affordable back then - at least not the most popular bands.
@@angelspawn1401 Really? I saw the Rolling Stones, the Who, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Jethro Tull, the Band - all in the 1970s and all with ticket prices at $7.50 or less and all seats in 15th row or closer. I call that waaaaay affordable. As a student for some of that time, I didn't have much extra money but never missed a nearby concert.
@@franneep Well, congrats, but you're going WAYYYY back, over 50 years. 👏🏻 😂 Inflation is a thing, but yes, the Hyperinflation of concert-ticket prices over the past 10-15 years has become unacceptable, as it's gradually excluding the middle class from attending shows without incurring significant credit-card debt. I attended many shows of big Rock acts in the '80s & '90s, and noticed it ticking up in stages even then. I cringed more than a bit in 2007 when I took my then-GF to see Springsteen @ $200 a pop, BUT they were last-minute floor tickets and she'd never seen him live (I had already been to a number of his concerts, and had paid maybe $30-40 for my first time, the _Born in the USA_ tour). But I knew it was COMPLETELY out-of-control when, less than 6 years later, I wanted to see the Stones again, and TicketMaster was asking $800/ticket for nowhere near the best seats. I happened to be visiting my Mom at the time, and when I showed her my laptop screen, she nearly fell over, saying "that price _must_ be a typo ! Does Jagger really need the money THAT badly ?" 😢 😂
@@franneepHow early in the 70s? I was earning $1.50 per hr mid 70s. I now earn around $50 per hr. My father was earning $1 hr when he retired in 1970. Was it really cheap?
@@toby9999 I was a college student on work study and don't remember what that equaled on a per your basis but saw many big names (Stones, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Who) and all were around $3 except Stones which I remember was $7.50...a fortune.
I think the bottom line is: if your going to go to a antiquated music act, do your due diligence and see if they can sing and how many members are even from the original line up. I've been doing this for years now. You can then weigh your findings against the ticket price and decide if it's really worth it.
Do you want it to "sound right" "sound the way you remember" I saw the band "Starship" 20-25 years ago and the vocals were so off I would rather they had been up there lip synching because at least then the experience would have "lived up to expectations" and been "the way I remembered it."
People now just get angry at other people for the crime of possessing knowledge about something they love that they themselves don't possess, and further, would never bother to learn. So don't even bother with these haters. I love your channel and I've learned a crazy amount about sound engineering from it. Please continue!
People do get made hearing things they don't want to hear about stars they love. For me, I am a fan of The Eagles who created the music I love as a teen in the 1970s not what The Eagles are today.
Yes, Fil saying that Don Henley has allowed his channel to use an Eagles song before (very unusual) yet he is still giving us this unflattering analysis, speaks well of Fil's integrity.
and he explains stuff really well, I work in signal processing every now and then, and I still learn from him regarding pitch space vs. time domain as applied in the music world.
Take it from a musician, that's show business. It may be heartbreaking, but it's true. It's been happening since the sixties to my knowledge, but probably earlier. Started as a necessity for tv studios. Watch the ed Sullivan show, 90% of the time instruments weren't even plugged in. Aaaand if your a musician that knows the song being played you start realizing all the musicians that are even playing the wrong chords on stage. It's really crazy. It's sickening.
@@chriswills9437 Yeah I'd say the same, the harmonies were incredible though. I can't bring myself to tell my partner, he still talks about how good it was.
I knew Fil was loathe to deliver the first and now this one. It hurts people's ego to falter. Maybe it was an emergency measure that wasn't supposed to have gone further. Contracts are tough to break, and when your vocalist's vocals ain't vocalizing anymore, you do what you gotta do and hope you're never discovered. The band is fine but they need to maybe get a relief performer for some songs.
What would be the point? There are dozens of recording techniques and effects employed. Should any use of plug ins, loops, reverb, doubling, synthesizer sounds, compression, EQ…etc etc etc. Most listeners are unlikely to be able to detect pitch control much of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be sending music to Fil to put a meter on it. In the end, consumers should choose the music they want to listen to based on what sounds good to them. Finally, who is going to mandate and enforce any of this? The government? The industry? Good luck with that. Fil is really teaching how to be a more educated listener which is good. In a way he is a consumer advocate.
I’m an electronics-guy and musician. I completely understood your first video. But I was also in the legal field for decades. I likened this “duplication of voice analysis” to handwritten signatures. I busted one company for fraud because they pulled a signature from the web and “pasted” it in a contract. The “overlays” were IDENTICAL. You can’t sign your signature EXACTLY the same. Small variances are noticeable to the trained eye. Great work, Fil.
I had the same experience. I apparently gave my written approval for some dental work to take place. I said I’d never agreed. They showed me my signature - it was identical to a previous one. They tried to deny it. I said I’d report them to the British Dental Association. They repaid all the money I’d given them for previous treatment. Then they went out of business. I wish Henley and all the other mimers (Kiss, Roger Waters, Dolly Parton, Motley Crue, etc, etc) would give fans back their money for their deceit
Showing the variations between Fil's own voice singing a single note was interesting. This is new territory for me, so I was happy to see this follow up vid.
He had to. So many people were in denial, and writing angry comments. I think those people paid hundreds, if not thousands, to see a recent Eagles show.
Unfortunately, too many people don’t understand how vocal sound is created. They literally don’t have a clue how vocal cords work - or if they do, they assume that the role they play is simply to change shape or open wider / close tighter while air passes through in order to produce different notes. So while we know that those peaks and valleys correspond to the vibrations of the vocal cords, those of modest knowledge aren’t making that correlation. A video clip of the larynx holding a note might have helped …or it might not. Rule #1 in psychology is that you can’t talk someone out of their delusion by explaining it isn’t rational.🤷🏻♀️
This 2nd video felt like it was meant to convince the 5% of 'flat earthers that the world is round' in essence. So it did its job. The addition of even more data recordings will fall on deaf ears of the other 95% I presume.
@@toleep2104 , I don’t think it did convince those “flat earthers”. I saw more comments from them trying to find any argument that Fil was wrong. It’s even gotten worse after the Carrie Underwood findings.
It was Thursday, June 16, 1966. I was only 14 years old and went to see the Dave Clark Five at Ty Cobb stadium in Endicott NY. They were very loud, the singing and the instrumentation were flawless. The screaming girls were at times deafening. Two days later I was at another event where I was helping with the public announcing. It was a boating event and did not include live performances but the sound system was used to broadcast announcements for the marina at Geneva, NY. The audio engineer was Clair Yeager, and he told me that I was using the exact same microphone Dave Clark had used 2 days earlier in Endicott. Clair was the one who set up the stage at Ty Cobb Stadium. Most of the sound system was his. Clair and my dad were very good friends and I was fascinated with audio equipment. Anyhow, I talked with Mr. Yeager about the details of the DC5 show. He told me that back stage they had 2 open reel decks. One deck had all the music pre recorded and the other deck was a loop of girls screaming. A tech who traveled with the DC5 was at a sound desk and he controlled the music playback deck, the mute switches on vocal microphones, and would ride the fader of the scream loop to keep it varied. Nothing in that show was live except for the chatting between songs. Even though I was only 14 at the time, I knew enough about stage volume as a guitar player to know that guitars are were too difficult to control without feedback at that volume and I was already suspicious that something was not as it appeared.
@@jdastroI would love such an analysis: I’d heard of the Monkee’s having backing musicians to play for them at concerts (as purportedly reported by THEM because they resented it) but have never heard of anything taped as far back as the DC5 -AND THEN with associated audience tapes.
You explained it perfectly the first time. And now a second. It's pretty obvious we pay $100s ($1000s?) of dollars to hear a recorded track, but still see the real person on stage.
@@JB-ti7bl Yep. Eagles were the first big band to start charging insane amounts for even the cheapest seats. Even though U2 has put out a good album in 20 years, at least they 1) keep the maim floor general admission and 2) last I checked those tickets are usually under $50. And that's saying something because that band is still gigantic and they could charge whatever the hell they wanted.
@@white.lodge.dale.cooperunfortunately the band hasn’t that much say on ticket prices, most get a deal for the gig (U2 are with Live Nation) then that company sells tickets for as much as it can.
Unfortunately this comment doesn't work because Felder's live vocals are autotuned and/or drenched in effects to the degree that they sound robotic. They sound terrible. He could even be using a track, but I'm not sure.
@@Cpayne30 Also surprised that Joe Walsh would allow a backing track even if it's only on the highest lead vocal sections at the end of each verse of "In the City". I guess being paid $100K (or whatever) per show has something to do with it.
@@HumbleTrader001 Absolutely. Walsh's 70s solo stuff has some killer deep cuts that he never touches but it's hard to argue about that paycheck, I suppose. But it's those same songs of his, time and time again....
Great work! It is clear that Don Henley was still singing in 2015 timeframe. Anybody who thinks he restored his voice to near perfection over the past 10 years is delusional.
When Elvis Costello was inducted into the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame, a reporter suggested there were too many musicians in the Hall of Fame. Elvis said, “well if it’s too full, I’d be happy to leave. As long as Mr. Henley comes with me.”
Hello, everyone - what I'd like to explain is the reason Fil has a big audience, a large group of fans, and a dedicated team of patrons. It is because we all love music! Great music is life-enhancing, and Fil is immensely talented in creating music, singing, production, performance, human biology, etc. Fil has nothing to prove. His analysis is robust and scientific, using digital technology, and he is simply stating the truth without judgment. It's important to respect performers who do many things at once - singing, dancing, playing, performing and entertaining - often for a couple of hours, and possibly with nerves too. It's a lot to ask, and therefore, backing tracks and vocal recordings are often used and Fil has proved it here. Unfortunately the audience often buys expensive tickets believing it is totally live. We just need some honesty and respect for the difficult craft of live performances so that we all know what we are paying for. I would truly respect any artist who openly stated their performance was supported in this way. It is honourable and respectful to fans and still wonderfully pleasurable to watch. As AI becomes more advanced and prevalent, this is a timely issue. We cannot always believe what we hear.
Yeah sadly Ian Anderson lost his voice pretty fast. It happens with vocalists who push their vocal chords as hard as he did. Same with Jimmy Barnes of Cold Chisel. Absolute monster of a front man in his prime, but years of screaming his lungs out night after night took their toll.
Would catch them whenever they came through Chicago area. (1970s) I'd Get a concert ticket for 8 bucks at NIU college, attend nickle beer night before the concert. A good affordable time,, Tull had some good guitar power, i always appreciated there performance.
I am every time happier that my band is 100% live playing. All and everything we do on stage is live, from vocals to keys (me 🙂). We don't have even a 0,00001% of the followers of The Eagles but, well, we are not cheating and our public values that!
Whether a performance is good, mediocre, or bad it should still be genuine in a live performance. Some "artists" have made a lot of money lip-synching their way through concert tours repeatedly. There is a difference between a "concert" and a "show", and "live and in-person" should be changed to "singing live". Your analysis is purely educational observation, not criticism. Thanks again, Fil!
Very true. I love Blondie, but Debbie's voice has changed with age, so she sings the songs differently - and that's absolutely fine. I would rather watch her sing with her current voice than watch her lip-synching to an earlier version.
True, but fans can get really nasty when an old guy gets up there and doesn’t have it anymore BUT wants the thrill of the show and of course making bank. I’ve seen them be absolutely brutal on say David Lee Roth or Vince Neil. Staying away from lip synch didn’t stop them from getting really trashed. Just my opinion. It’s a lose lose for a singer. Well, Henley didn’t get boo’d and still profited. I don’t know if that can be said for the other guys whose aged voices sound bad. Pick your poison, really.
@@TheEricthefruitbat - I saw Debbie Harry a few years back. She was alone and sung to recorded music, but it was absolutely HER singing. As long as singers still have a voice and don't break eardrums, I admire the sound of having lived a life with its ups and downs. And she looked darned good.
There is a difference between "artists" who "put on a show" so you know what to expect, and musicians who take pride in their craft. The Eagles were always proud of their perfection and thats the trap they moved themselves into.
Milli Vanilli Henley. I saw Aerosmith about 22 years ago and when Steven Tyler introduced the bamd he made a point of saying that an additional guy supplimenting the band was "singing his ass off" because maybe he could hit some of those high notes that Tyler couldn't anymore. Did i feel cheated? No. It was a whole band performance with credit where credit is due.
As a man who used to repair two way radios and examined many waves using oscilloscopes I can attest the only way you can have two duplicate waves is when they are synthetic, meaning it was either created by a tone generator / oscillator or a recording. Keep up the good work Fil.
@@user-vs6hx9ib2o Its been a while, but I remember having fun connecting two audio tone generators to oscilloscope inputs with one input being waveform (frequency and amplitude) and the other controlling the time base (sweep frequency of the display). When rigged correctly you turn your oscilloscope into a spirograph. Then working the controls on the tone generators you can modify the drawing in real time.
@@larrybremer4930 Lissajous figures ! Oh, the fun I had with them (And the bloody blinding headaches they induced after three or four hours !) 😩 Still love analogue 'scopes - truly, what you see is what you've got !
In the last few years, I attended concerts by Brian Wilson and friends, and Felix Cavaliere and friends, both of which featured their respective bands' classic hits. In both concerts, many of the vocal parts originally sung by the headliners were taken by other people in the current bands, hired explicitly for that purpose. No one in the audience objected, to my knowledge. We got to hear good live performances of beloved songs, overseen by the composers who were there, sang parts they could still sing, and talked to the audiences. Why other classic bands don't also do this is beyond me.
Yeah I saw Pet Sounds a few years ago (as well as an opening set of older beach boys tunes) and it was an excellent show. Al Jardines son sang the high parts and performed them wonderfully.
I saw Henley on his 2017 solo tour. For those dates, he featured three background singers who each helped out on the more difficult parts (for example, the bridge in "Sunset Grill" was sung completely by one of the young ladies). He knew he couldn't hit those notes anymore, and no one cared.
Lip syncing live is cheating the audience. The way around this is to lower the key of the song so it fits an aging voice that can no longer hit the high notes and or, as the post above, have background singers sing those high notes while the main performer sings an octave lower or a harmony that complements. It's not fair to dupe loyal fans out of money, otherwise just stay home and listen to the CD.
I understood the first time. No matter how good a singer is, how many times they've sang something it's literally impossible for the human voice not to have variations every single time.
Your test (with the trick question) and singing the same note four times really helps to demonstrate that two different vocals will never look identical on the monitoring software.
His book Heaven and Hell about his time in Eagles explained what bastards Eagles corp. are . I'm sure there are sour grapes there too but they cut out his share of the band and he had to sue to get his revenues
The decline started. when Randy Meisner left. No knock on Timothy but Randy was a unique voice that truly couldn't be replaced. You were very diplomatic saying Felder left. He was fired for daring to question where the millions he was owed was going.
No he would never scam his audience. Even when he had voice cracks & voice issues he always gave his all. Unfortunately, many live vids of Queens concerts have pitch corrected Freddie, & early recordings re- mastered. Not all, but even one is to many! Don’t understand why Brian & Roger allowed it, or maybe it was production co. & they had no control over it.I don’t know, I’m not knowledgeable enough about it, but I do know it was not needed. Sure if he was alive he would not be happy.
Freddie's last public performance was 38 years ago when this technology wasn't even a dream. I, too, would like to think he wouldn't use it if he was here today, but he probably would.
I've been to a few Eagles shows over the last 20 years. Always thought they sounded so incredible. After seeing your last couple of analysis videos, I feel completely ripped off by those concert experiences. It's like an athlete taking steroids. Cheating...is cheating.
I don't think there was lip syncing for all those 20 years. After 2017, yes, but Don seemed to be singing up until the History of the Eagles tour, as well as his solo shows. I saw him a few times, and he had some off performances where his voice was not sounding too good. He probably sounds worse now, but the money is too good and they want people to have a consistent experience.
I have a friend that had told me the best show he had ever heard was The Eagles, because they spend so much time on set up… hes a very smart person, very nice and honest and also a professional musician..i dont have the heart to tell him
@@jamesrudd8705 im just gunna let it lay. Being that music is his livelihood he probably has already heard about and doesn’t need some old dusty hillbilly telling anything haha
Fil, absolutely excellent analysis! I completely understand exactly what you are showing us ! If anyone doubts your analytical skills now, then it is simply that they refuse to accept the proof and the truth ! What a great educator you are ! Well done,Fil💜
Fil, thank you ever so much for educating the public on appreciating music, and learning why music sounds the way it does. Nobody does it better! Now we know why "live" music sounds so good .... 😁
Thank you again for trying to clarify for some people who were skeptical. I got it on your first voice “forensic” and this time with four different concert vocals it should be crystal clear.
Very good vocal illustration. I thought your first video was clear, but this should eliminate any doubt. I'm not an Eagles fan, but if I was a fan and paid a ton of money for a ticket for this, I'd be pretty annoyed.
I studied audio for years, performed on stage in bands, did audio engineering and he is 100% correct about his audio analysis. Even when I would double track vocals and do the 2nd take only 1 minute after doing the 1st take and even trying to sing the exact same all without changing any settings, the 2 vocal takes would STILL not be the EXACT same.
I don't see Don's people anywhere denying it lol! Also, it's obviously different footage because of the ambient noises being different.@@johnbriggs3916
I remember a live concert of Joe Cocker in Warschau Poland, which made me more appreciative of him as a person and musician. Apparently everybody was waiting for the high C (?) in Little Help. Joe was clearly adding a few repetitions of the preceding strofe in as in an aborted plain landing. In one of them the note was struck by somebody in the public. And finally Joe also tried and did not quite succeed. I realized this being his iconic blessing/curse combo 40 years after Woodstock. I also appreciated him as a person, not shying away and giving us his best in an otherwise great live concert. Thanks Joe.
Your work is paying off in a big way. I soured on the Eagles years ago so this does not come as a total surprise to me. The picture that is forming in the publics eye after this scandal will be hard to recover from. Can't wait to watch the fallout from this mess. What a rip off.
Saw Adele start a song on the Grammys (s) she didn't like the start and stopped the song and had them start ahain. That's a live performance! I actually like her live more than recorded. I've heard a lot of older singers who can't hit the notes they used to, but it was okay. I loved the effort and truth. Keep on it, Fil!
Thank you for this clarifying video. I have to admit that, although I agree with your analysis most of the time, I wasn't convinced that you were correct after watching the first Eagles video. However, with this follow up video, I fully understand what you are saying, and I agree 100%. Thank you for everything you do, and I will continue to watch/enjoy your videos!
Through all the years and their ups and downs, The Eagles are my favorite band hands down. I’ve seen them live 7 times including 4 in the past couple of years. I was always amazed how Henley’s voice was so strong and consistent during each performance and I kind of wondered and questioned how that could happen especially at his age. Sadly now, I believe I have my answer. I have always throughly enjoyed their shows in an arena setting and I guess I’d rather have great vocals than bad or “off” ones, but I have certainly forked out a lot of money (including for travel) and I’m incredibly disappointed if this is all true, which the evidence clearly shows that it is.
Well, at least you got to see them in person if that is any consolation. I think what really sours the whole fakery is that they could have bowed out and admitted that the voice is going. Or they could have let the voice be real and let the market decide if they want to hear an aging singer sing. Some people do because the ticket prices are affordable.
@@PaintingandExercise For me, it's about how much they charge those who are obviously their most hardened fans to spend the money for tickets, travel and hotel. Laughing all the way to the bank at the foolishness of their fans... McCartney charges a ton, but there's no doubt, that's his 'real' voice, cracks, pitch and all, and his fans still pay that amount to hear him. Says alot about Paul, says even more about Don...
I saw them at Comisky Park in 1978. I remember wondering where Randy Meisner was and why is Joe Walsh singing with them! 😮 I haven’t seen them perform since. I’ve never stopped enjoying their music and knowing that Henley is lip-syncing won’t change anything for me. I can’t afford tickets to their shows anyway.
@@gins8781 I was fortunate to catch their Hell Freezes Over reunion tour w/ Frey, Felder, Walsh & Schmidt. The best show I'd seen by that time. Henley's actions in the last couple decades continues to erode me of my fond memories of that time to the point I'm done w/ the past and put my energy and ears to the newer rock music that's finally coming back after decades of rap/hip hop/ R&B, dance tracks pervasive on the radio...
I went off the Eagles when Don Henley and his army of copyright strikers blocked my cover of one of his songs on my tiny UA-cam channel. In about 17 yrs of uploading covers it was only The Eagles and Supertramp I've ever had outright blocked. He is welcome to do so, however as hobbyist musician turns me off. on the positive side taking them out of my listening opened me up to finding many new and exciting independent artists ...
Congrats Fil you blew up the internet. Two additional videos on this topic have popped up in my feed; one referencing you specifically. Another gives a close-up analysis of Don and Joe's position while singing into the mic. Strange that their voices don't change when they pull back from an inch away to a foot away. Zero drop-off in volume, haha.
There are so many variables, but one constant is Fil's integrity. I actually liked the videos before all of the on-screen software displays. I continue to watch just because of the passion.
If there is a response it will probably be lawyers and a UA-cam copyright strike to try to get the video taken down. It doesn't really matter In "The Long run" because the damage has already been done and Henley just has to "Get Over It!"
As always, detailed observations and ethical questions raised. I know people's voices decline with age and that is fine. Miming to old recordings and passing them off at expensive "concerts" as live is pure bogus. Keep up the good work, Fil, I have been learning from you for several years now and aporeciate your professionalism.
Anyone who is on the fence or has doubts about your motion should look at other videos you have done. You are obviously a massive fan of almost all music. You can't hide your admiration for many of the acts you annalise. It's actually what keeps me coming back to your channel. I see you in awe of them at times. Like you I am a massive fan of the Eagles. I have seen them live twice. What they don't seem to realise is that most people would rather see a live band not being perfect all of the time rather than a perfect recording. Ignore the nay sayers and keep up the great work. I truly love to see you smile in admiration at the artists you cover on the channel
I watched your video from last week and reposted it so people are aware. I LOVE that you clarified here by breaking it down even further. No one can possibly refute this.
You tapped into some incredible truth Fil. This is huge. Its going to be extremely interesting to see what all becomes of all this. And you did it with knowledge and honesty.
I predict it will lead to a lot more scrutiny and skepticism regarding "classic" band performances. I guess instrumentalists would not be immune to this sort of thing, except "syncing" would be more difficult with fingers rather than lips.
It gets even better. Watch the Wrecking Crew doc and you’ll learn that nearly all recorded tracks aren’t even by the musicians in the band, they’re by studio players. Looking at you Ringo
@@michaelwills1926 Wrecking Crew studio musicians backed a lot of 60's bands, and as with most studio musicians, got little or no credit for it. It's generally the case that your studio contract includes signing away any rights to royalties and credits. At least Felix Pappalardi got mentioned in the credits of Cream albums, but he wasn't your run-of-the-mill studio hack.
Thank you for posting this explanation of how no 2 vocals can be the same, due to the imperfections of the vibrations of our vocal cords. Some fans who didn't understand this before are now much better informed by your video. If anyone still thinks that Don Henley is truly singing live, they are merely in denial now.
If Henley's fans genuinely loved him, I think they would want to see him perform live to honor and thank him for all the years of incredible music. They would also just want to show their appreciation and respect for giving the most he can regardless of whether he might be off key or not. Clearly, he hasn't thought about this or doesn’t care. Instead, his fans are treated disrespectfully by becoming haughty, conceited, and deceiving.
I think it's extremely important that you've identified this, Fil. I did a little searching on this subject, and I guess I must be very naive because I was reading that it's not that uncommon to do this these days. Somewhere someone wrote, "Notice how they don't advertise 'live and in concert' anymore." Then I guess people who saw your analysis went and studied Eagles videos because I also found a couple of videos made just this past week showing the Eagles lip-syncing at their concerts. I still think that the average concert-goer isn't aware at all that this may be done. I've seen plenty of clearly live concerts by some of my old favorites who can't always hit the notes or remember the words. But that's real! That's what makes a live concert unique and wonderful and human! Why should we pay exorbitant ticket prices to hear recordings we can listen to at home for free?
Thanks Fil. The Eagles were the band that first got me into classic rock so I can sympathize with people not wanting to believe its true. But it appears to be true, the eagles don't sing desperado live anymore.
I played the three versions to a pitch-finding app. It was interesting and reassuring to see how all three corresponded exactly with yours. What a time to be alive!
Thanks Fil - it's clear you know what you're talking about when it comes to audio in relation to the pitch software you use. So many people don't have a clear idea and don't know all the additional details that would need to be accounted for in order to "fake" something like this. Thanks for all you do.
I would say that the first part of the 4 waveforms match as well, they are just are lower volume and the varying audio quality caused more drop outs. But, when it goes high in one, it goes high on all of them at the same time. When it goes low in one, it goes low in all of them at the same time. There is just more distortion, but they are still clearly the same performance, just not quite as obvious as the louder parts. Maybe harder for someone who doesn't understand this stuff, but all the same performance all the way through. Your analysis is spot on IMO. Out of curiosity, I went to the eagles site to look at ticket prices, and I have to say they are far higher than I expected. If a class action forms, it will not end well for mr h and co. Hopefully a very negative legal outcome from such a case will cause changes in the industry to either stop these shenanigans or at least require them to let you know before you buy a ticket, that there will be lipsyncing, so a consumer can make an informed choice whether they want to pay to see something that isn't entirely live.
Fil, you are incredible. Music class has never been so worthwhile and fun. Love your detail love you and everything you have done to increase my life long love and appreciation of music.💛🎶
The problem with bands lip syncing on some of their songs (even when it's only the chorus or only high part of some songs), is that it makes you wonder when ELSE are they lip syncing, and what is real and what isn't. It also makes you wonder when the band started doing this. Once they fall into the lip sync rabbit hole, you may as well just assume EVERY part could be lip synced at any time, depending upon whether someone has a sore throat that night or whatever. After all, there's big money involved. It should be illegal to lip sync without disclosing it.
There's a video around here where someone managed to film them in 2017 and it clearly shows that Don lip synced everything, and Joe just some parts. There are other videos, like the ones Fil used from 2022, 2023 that show it's still happening. In 2015 Don sang Desperado live in a lower key because he was losing his higher register as people do when they get older. Now, since then he's suddenly able to sing in a higher key again? Not at all likely.
@@lauraallen55 Yeah, sometimes a vocalist will lower the key for an acoustic version of a song and still sing the regular version in the original key, but that’s not the case here since he is now lip syncing in the original key.
Musician and home sound recordist here. As much as it hurts to accept it, you are absolutely right: those recordings are undeniably one and the same. I saw them perform at Earls Court back in 2001 and I hope he was still singing live then! But, on another note, since Mr Henley's people had my instrumental cover of 'Boys of Summer' taken down a year ago and YT slapped a 90-day copyright strike on my channel, I am pleased that he's been exposed as a fraud.
I’m sure that hurt but for you to record his music ( which is what you did) copyright law in the US requires the performer to “Get permission from the copyright holder directly, or license the work according to the terms set by the licensing contract.” So the bottom line is - you didn’t get a license to record his music and publish it ( ie what you did by posting it on UA-cam). That is copyright law in the US or if you prefer from the musicians union in the UK “n general terms, copyright is a ‘property’ right. This means that the owner of the right, who can be the author or any person to whom the author has assigned it, has the exclusive right to authorise or prevent others from using their work in various ways. A ‘musical work’ consists entirely of music.” Since you didn’t get the authorization to his work and you published it - he has every right in the world to protect his work. As a musician, you should be aware of the basic rights granted to copywrighted works. I’m quite sure that if you wrote a hit record - you would want to make sure nobody was making money off of your work besides you. Mr Henley did nothing wrong when it comes to you channel on you tube. I highly suggest you look into and understand copyright law. Especially if you are recording music that somebody else wrote. It will save you grief down the road and it will be something you’ll want to protect any music you write or write and record.
You've opened a can of worms with this ... which is rather excellent ... and also about time someone (as in you Fil) who's credible explaining the process.
Hi Fil, This was an extraordinarily detailed video. Loved the trick “held note” question. Very interactive… and a good way to really test the/your ear. I think for me the layering of seeing the vocals really sealed DH’s fate here in these performances. But the miming was also pretty clear in the first Eagles analysis video you did of these performances. You are a Super Sleuth and an amazing teacher! Thanks for a great learning experience. Debbie☮️
Many people when wrong would rather defend their wrongness than learn and change their mind. It is the number one flaw of the human mind. It's a subconscious defense mechanism for the mind to protect its worldview and understanding, no matter how limited or wrong. People with elevated minds are aware of this and can adjust accordingly. People who don't understand how their mind works will cling to their ignorance like an emotional support blanket. They think their limited worldview represents the world. They think their limited understanding is a valid tool for discernment.
Thanks again Fil for taking the time to teach your masterclass to the masses! Your analysis is spot on, and I appreciate you breaking down complex technical aspects of music and simplifying it in a way that we can all understand. Simply brilliant! Cheers!
![Lp. Последняя Реальность #107 РОДНОЙ ДОМ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IK3QKzKUlHM/mqdefault.jpg)
Retired professor of Sound Engineering here. I totally agree with your analysis. Both “live” performances used the exact same recording of the vocals. This is not technically debatable.
I think we need a deeper and long analysis of several tracks before proving anything hereabout the Eagles. I know SOME bands have long lip synced and I totally call that fraud.
@chilitoday You're not following what he's saying/showing. It's impossible for the sections he's shown to NOT be a recording. Why would this be the only section that is lip-synced?, that makes no sense. Possible I guess. But that part, is a recording.
@@chilitoday no deeper analysis is needed. this is a slam dunk
The moment he layered them in the first video and there was no chorus/overdub effect - well it’s just an open and shut case. Nothing more to see here!
I agree but you are saying two things. One is the human ear can't hear the difference. The other is that they shouldn't use tech correction because it changes the feeling of the performance. Sounds contradictory but I actually agree with both.
As a former musician can say he's 100% correct. And yes, it's a big deal that such a big band deceive people. It also hursts the industry. If you wanna watch real musicians go watch local bands!
...added benefit to which is it costs a tiny fraction of the amount you'd pay to hear (or not!) someone iconic...
Or you can luck in. I heard Gordon Lightfoot, pure live, in September 2022 at Toronto, for next to nothing...yes he'd faded, but still sang pretty well (including all of Wreck Of The Edmund Fitzgerald) and put on a great show...
Agreed!! I wish more people would give their local bands a chance!!
And, if you want real news, read local newspapers.
how can you be a former musician?
@@tonyosborne1720 Tons of reasons. You can retire from playing football. You're not still a footballer - you're a former footballer. Does this really need to be explained to you? 🙄
I am starting to wonder if my Alvin and the Chipmunks records might not actually be real chipmunks.
Fortunately I wasn’t holding my coffee when I read this. Perhaps if some have been to a live Chipmonks performance they could relieve our concerns. But then they might have lip-synched as well.
Hahahahahahahahahaha😂😂
Alvin is real. The other 2, well, you better sit down ..
Say it ain't so!
Hahahahaha
My friend, you have no need to feel bad for exposing this. You are an honorable musician and we appreciate your knowledge.
A fellow musician
I do feel a bit bad for Don. It's clear he has lost the ability. This video feels like it's picking on him for clicks. It's why he did a part 2.
@@TimothyTimPSP Not for clicks; this is to put the whole thing to bed by answering genuine viewer questions and offering a final, definitive comparison using four different concerts all using the same vocal track. I feel awful for Don - it's clear he's lost the confidence (and possibly the ability) to carry off this massive crowd pleaser encore, which - as the last song of the night - will remain in the audience's memory the best. I honestly think he doesn't want to let the paying customers down, but - ironically - it's just what was bound to happen once this got out. Very sad indeed.
@@TimothyTimPSP I feel bad for Don also, because by now he must know that he didn’t get away with this fraud as cleanly as he expected to, and that must feel absolutely humiliating. But he has absolutely nobody to blame but himself, for putting his greed above his integrity. And I also feel bad for all the people he’s fleeced out of their hard-earned money.
@fromchomleystreet Well... let's not go too far on our outrage. Yes, it's dishonest, but the eagles is more than just Don. Fleeced? You don't need a bandaid for every scrape. He shouldn't have done it. He can't be trusted in the future without a lot of work and proof. That's all.
Don Henley is already preparing to lip-sync his rebuttal to this -- but first he needs to have it pitch-corrected.
Hilarious 😂
He's taking it to the limit!
@@elishabacon2299 he can’t tell you why. Because Johnny can’t read
He might be too busy running around the internet shutting down reaction channels.
Or perhaps he's just running on empty.
Oh .. wrong band. My bad.
The hilarious thing is that the audience's performance is more real than Henley's.
I continue to be glad that I came of age in the 1970s when concerts were wonderful REAL experiences. And affordable.
I realized that it was all a scam when most industry insiders supported Ashley Simpson after her SNL flub. That was after watching a couple much better sonic live performances then I’d ever heard.
BTW, concerts were no more affordable back then - at least not the most popular bands.
@@angelspawn1401 Really? I saw the Rolling Stones, the Who, Led Zeppelin, Jimi Hendrix, Jethro Tull, the Band - all in the 1970s and all with ticket prices at $7.50 or less and all seats in 15th row or closer. I call that waaaaay affordable. As a student for some of that time, I didn't have much extra money but never missed a nearby concert.
@@franneep Well, congrats, but you're going WAYYYY back, over 50 years. 👏🏻 😂
Inflation is a thing, but yes, the Hyperinflation of concert-ticket prices over the past 10-15 years has become unacceptable, as it's gradually excluding the middle class from attending shows without incurring significant credit-card debt.
I attended many shows of big Rock acts in the '80s & '90s, and noticed it ticking up in stages even then. I cringed more than a bit in 2007 when I took my then-GF to see Springsteen @ $200 a pop, BUT they were last-minute floor tickets and she'd never seen him live (I had already been to a number of his concerts, and had paid maybe $30-40 for my first time, the _Born in the USA_ tour).
But I knew it was COMPLETELY out-of-control when, less than 6 years later, I wanted to see the Stones again, and TicketMaster was asking $800/ticket for nowhere near the best seats. I happened to be visiting my Mom at the time, and when I showed her my laptop screen, she nearly fell over, saying "that price _must_ be a typo ! Does Jagger really need the money THAT badly ?" 😢 😂
@@franneepHow early in the 70s? I was earning $1.50 per hr mid 70s. I now earn around $50 per hr. My father was earning $1 hr when he retired in 1970. Was it really cheap?
@@toby9999 I was a college student on work study and don't remember what that equaled on a per your basis but saw many big names (Stones, Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, Who) and all were around $3 except Stones which I remember was $7.50...a fortune.
I think the bottom line is: If you go to a live show, you wanna hear a live show.
I think the bottom line is: if your going to go to a antiquated music act, do your due diligence and see if they can sing and how many members are even from the original line up. I've been doing this for years now. You can then weigh your findings against the ticket price and decide if it's really worth it.
Do you want it to "sound right" "sound the way you remember"
I saw the band "Starship" 20-25 years ago and the vocals were so off I would rather they had been up there lip synching because at least then the experience would have "lived up to expectations" and been "the way I remembered it."
@jkelly2478 100%
@daleferber2096 you would rather hear the album version? Lol
People now just get angry at other people for the crime of possessing knowledge about something they love that they themselves don't possess, and further, would never bother to learn. So don't even bother with these haters. I love your channel and I've learned a crazy amount about sound engineering from it. Please continue!
Well said. Facts just don’t matter to some people.
What haters?
People do get made hearing things they don't want to hear about stars they love. For me, I am a fan of The Eagles who created the music I love as a teen in the 1970s not what The Eagles are today.
@@MosaidDeath ha, you are right, "hater" is too strong, but some Eagles fans took issue. I also like much of the band's output, actually
I saw The Eagles in 1974. They were a great little R&R band.
Fil has always been truthful and a honest guy!
Thats one reason i love watching him ! Fil is awesome!!!!🤘
Yes, Fil saying that Don Henley has allowed his channel to use an Eagles song before (very unusual) yet he is still giving us this unflattering analysis, speaks well of Fil's integrity.
Fil has the nicest way of saying, "Some of you guys are idiots:"
and he explains stuff really well, I work in signal processing every now and then, and I still learn from him regarding pitch space vs. time domain as applied in the music world.
Totally agreed. Fil is great.
Yes he’s very honest about this analysis. He has, in effect, opened a Pandora’s box.
paying concert ticket prices to sit and listen to recordings is just criminal.
Amen!
Take it from a musician, that's show business. It may be heartbreaking, but it's true. It's been happening since the sixties to my knowledge, but probably earlier. Started as a necessity for tv studios. Watch the ed Sullivan show, 90% of the time instruments weren't even plugged in. Aaaand if your a musician that knows the song being played you start realizing all the musicians that are even playing the wrong chords on stage. It's really crazy. It's sickening.
That's why I don't attend big concerts anymore.
Should be performance.
I don’t think McCartney does it.
Especially with the prices that they charge
For anyone to debate Fil’s analysis is laughable. He is on target and completely honest about the performance by the Eagles.
I understood the first time, & I'm gutted. I saw the Eagles in '22. I can't help thinking now, there's a reason why it was as good as it was. 🙁
Me too, Joe hit a few off notes in my show as I remember so not sure the whole show was...etc
Frauds
@@chriswills9437 Yeah I'd say the same, the harmonies were incredible though. I can't bring myself to tell my partner, he still talks about how good it was.
What did the professions who contacted you have to say about this?
I knew Fil was loathe to deliver the first and now this one. It hurts people's ego to falter. Maybe it was an emergency measure that wasn't supposed to have gone further. Contracts are tough to break, and when your vocalist's vocals ain't vocalizing anymore, you do what you gotta do and hope you're never discovered. The band is fine but they need to maybe get a relief performer for some songs.
Recordings and performances that have been pitch corrected etc should be forced to advertise the fact.
Absolutely!
They are supposed to do it for explicit lyrics so why not pitch correction or autotune.
Far more important than the "Parental Advisory" label.
What would be the point? There are dozens of recording techniques and effects employed. Should any use of plug ins, loops, reverb, doubling, synthesizer sounds, compression, EQ…etc etc etc.
Most listeners are unlikely to be able to detect pitch control much of the time. Otherwise they wouldn’t be sending music to Fil to put a meter on it.
In the end, consumers should choose the music they want to listen to based on what sounds good to them.
Finally, who is going to mandate and enforce any of this? The government? The industry? Good luck with that.
Fil is really teaching how to be a more educated listener which is good. In a way he is a consumer advocate.
You've heard of the term "When hell freezes over"?😅
I’m an electronics-guy and musician. I completely understood your first video. But I was also in the legal field for decades. I likened this “duplication of voice analysis” to handwritten signatures. I busted one company for fraud because they pulled a signature from the web and “pasted” it in a contract. The “overlays” were IDENTICAL. You can’t sign your signature EXACTLY the same. Small variances are noticeable to the trained eye.
Great work, Fil.
I had the same experience. I apparently gave my written approval for some dental work to take place. I said I’d never agreed. They showed me my signature - it was identical to a previous one. They tried to deny it. I said I’d report them to the British Dental Association. They repaid all the money I’d given them for previous treatment. Then they went out of business.
I wish Henley and all the other mimers (Kiss, Roger Waters, Dolly Parton, Motley Crue, etc, etc) would give fans back their money for their deceit
I went to an Eagles concert a few years ago with my wife. I said to her that it was just like listening to a CD, now I know why!
There's no need to explain it again, Fil - your original video was very in-depth and clear.
Showing the variations between Fil's own voice singing a single note was interesting. This is new territory for me, so I was happy to see this follow up vid.
He had to. So many people were in denial, and writing angry comments. I think those people paid hundreds, if not thousands, to see a recent Eagles show.
Unfortunately, too many people don’t understand how vocal sound is created. They literally don’t have a clue how vocal cords work - or if they do, they assume that the role they play is simply to change shape or open wider / close tighter while air passes through in order to produce different notes.
So while we know that those peaks and valleys correspond to the vibrations of the vocal cords, those of modest knowledge aren’t making that correlation. A video clip of the larynx holding a note might have helped …or it might not.
Rule #1 in psychology is that you can’t talk someone out of their delusion by explaining it isn’t rational.🤷🏻♀️
This 2nd video felt like it was meant to convince the 5% of 'flat earthers that the world is round' in essence. So it did its job. The addition of even more data recordings will fall on deaf ears of the other 95% I presume.
@@toleep2104 ,
I don’t think it did convince those “flat earthers”. I saw more comments from them trying to find any argument that Fil was wrong. It’s even gotten worse after the Carrie Underwood findings.
Thank you for discussing the facts without making it personal. You’re just reading & interpreting the information with civility & grace. 🤩🤓🤘
It was Thursday, June 16, 1966. I was only 14 years old and went to see the Dave Clark Five at Ty Cobb stadium in Endicott NY. They were very loud, the singing and the instrumentation were flawless. The screaming girls were at times deafening. Two days later I was at another event where I was helping with the public announcing. It was a boating event and did not include live performances but the sound system was used to broadcast announcements for the marina at Geneva, NY. The audio engineer was Clair Yeager, and he told me that I was using the exact same microphone Dave Clark had used 2 days earlier in Endicott. Clair was the one who set up the stage at Ty Cobb Stadium. Most of the sound system was his. Clair and my dad were very good friends and I was fascinated with audio equipment. Anyhow, I talked with Mr. Yeager about the details of the DC5 show. He told me that back stage they had 2 open reel decks. One deck had all the music pre recorded and the other deck was a loop of girls screaming. A tech who traveled with the DC5 was at a sound desk and he controlled the music playback deck, the mute switches on vocal microphones, and would ride the fader of the scream loop to keep it varied. Nothing in that show was live except for the chatting between songs. Even though I was only 14 at the time, I knew enough about stage volume as a guitar player to know that guitars are were too difficult to control without feedback at that volume and I was already suspicious that something was not as it appeared.
If Phil could get a couple of live recording of that tour of the DC5, yiur story could be verified... and I believe it would be.
@@jdastroI would love such an analysis: I’d heard of the Monkee’s having backing musicians to play for them at concerts (as purportedly reported by THEM because they resented it) but have never heard of anything taped as far back as the DC5 -AND THEN with associated audience tapes.
You may be the most patient UA-camr of all time.
You explained it perfectly the first time. And now a second. It's pretty obvious we pay $100s ($1000s?) of dollars to hear a recorded track, but still see the real person on stage.
Got any of them holigrams?
There is still plenty of live music that is not a recorded track.
2024 Eagles tour in UK: Cheap seats = 283 pounds ($358).
@@JB-ti7bl Yep. Eagles were the first big band to start charging insane amounts for even the cheapest seats. Even though U2 has put out a good album in 20 years, at least they 1) keep the maim floor general admission and 2) last I checked those tickets are usually under $50. And that's saying something because that band is still gigantic and they could charge whatever the hell they wanted.
@@white.lodge.dale.cooperunfortunately the band hasn’t that much say on ticket prices, most get a deal for the gig (U2 are with Live Nation) then that company sells tickets for as much as it can.
Don Felder should buy front row tickets and then sue the Eagles for lip syncing.
Unfortunately this comment doesn't work because Felder's live vocals are autotuned and/or drenched in effects to the degree that they sound robotic. They sound terrible. He could even be using a track, but I'm not sure.
@@Cpayne30 Yeah, Felder shouldn't be using auto-tune on his voice at live shows.
@@Cpayne30 Also surprised that Joe Walsh would allow a backing track even if it's only on the highest lead vocal sections at the end of each verse of "In the City". I guess being paid $100K (or whatever) per show has something to do with it.
@@HumbleTrader001 Absolutely. Walsh's 70s solo stuff has some killer deep cuts that he never touches but it's hard to argue about that paycheck, I suppose. But it's those same songs of his, time and time again....
@2v_5r84 Yep- he is not a good lead vocalist no matter how you cut it....
Great work! It is clear that Don Henley was still singing in 2015 timeframe. Anybody who thinks he restored his voice to near perfection over the past 10 years is delusional.
When Elvis Costello was inducted into the Rock&Roll Hall of Fame, a reporter suggested there were too many musicians in the Hall of Fame. Elvis said, “well if it’s too full, I’d be happy to leave. As long as Mr. Henley comes with me.”
Best comment ever!
That’s hilarious! 👍
Right? I just love Elvis.@@123Rockchild
King Elvis II
Oooo burn!
Hello, everyone - what I'd like to explain is the reason Fil has a big audience, a large group of fans, and a dedicated team of patrons. It is because we all love music! Great music is life-enhancing, and Fil is immensely talented in creating music, singing, production, performance, human biology, etc. Fil has nothing to prove. His analysis is robust and scientific, using digital technology, and he is simply stating the truth without judgment. It's important to respect performers who do many things at once - singing, dancing, playing, performing and entertaining - often for a couple of hours, and possibly with nerves too. It's a lot to ask, and therefore, backing tracks and vocal recordings are often used and Fil has proved it here. Unfortunately the audience often buys expensive tickets believing it is totally live. We just need some honesty and respect for the difficult craft of live performances so that we all know what we are paying for. I would truly respect any artist who openly stated their performance was supported in this way. It is honourable and respectful to fans and still wonderfully pleasurable to watch. As AI becomes more advanced and prevalent, this is a timely issue. We cannot always believe what we hear.
Well said, said Ed.
Thank you. You said everything I wish I knew how to articulate
Thanks for your understanding.
@@DianeAvila-bv4fc thank you. Much kindness Liz
Very well said.
I saw Jethro Tull in the 70s and Ian Anderson in the 2000s. He didn't cheat, he hired a guy to hit the high notes. Props to him for not cheating.
Yeah sadly Ian Anderson lost his voice pretty fast. It happens with vocalists who push their vocal chords as hard as he did. Same with Jimmy Barnes of Cold Chisel. Absolute monster of a front man in his prime, but years of screaming his lungs out night after night took their toll.
Yes , the fans knew Ian had ruined his vocal chords and his limitations
Would catch them whenever they came through Chicago area. (1970s) I'd Get a concert ticket for 8 bucks at NIU college, attend nickle beer night before the concert. A good affordable time,, Tull had some good guitar power, i always appreciated there performance.
I agree. Similar with Elton John's later live albums and shows, which were also not dishonest like the Eagles shows.
@@freeconvention Vocal cords, not vocal chords.
I am every time happier that my band is 100% live playing. All and everything we do on stage is live, from vocals to keys (me 🙂). We don't have even a 0,00001% of the followers of The Eagles but, well, we are not cheating and our public values that!
Whether a performance is good, mediocre, or bad it should still be genuine in a live performance. Some "artists" have made a lot of money lip-synching their way through concert tours repeatedly. There is a difference between a "concert" and a "show", and "live and in-person" should be changed to "singing live".
Your analysis is purely educational observation, not criticism. Thanks again, Fil!
Very true. I love Blondie, but Debbie's voice has changed with age, so she sings the songs differently - and that's absolutely fine. I would rather watch her sing with her current voice than watch her lip-synching to an earlier version.
True, but fans can get really nasty when an old guy gets up there and doesn’t have it anymore BUT wants the thrill of the show and of course making bank. I’ve seen them be absolutely brutal on say David Lee Roth or Vince Neil. Staying away from lip synch didn’t stop them from getting really trashed. Just my opinion. It’s a lose lose for a singer. Well, Henley didn’t get boo’d and still profited. I don’t know if that can be said for the other guys whose aged voices sound bad. Pick your poison, really.
@@TheEricthefruitbat - I saw Debbie Harry a few years back. She was alone and sung to recorded music, but it was absolutely HER singing. As long as singers still have a voice and don't break eardrums, I admire the sound of having lived a life with its ups and downs. And she looked darned good.
We also don't know if all the vocal performances are synched or if it's just the a capella version of "Desperado."
There is a difference between "artists" who "put on a show" so you know what to expect, and musicians who take pride in their craft. The Eagles were always proud of their perfection and thats the trap they moved themselves into.
Milli Vanilli Henley. I saw Aerosmith about 22 years ago and when Steven Tyler introduced the bamd he made a point of saying that an additional guy supplimenting the band was "singing his ass off" because maybe he could hit some of those high notes that Tyler couldn't anymore. Did i feel cheated? No. It was a whole band performance with credit where credit is due.
Well yeah...Tyler told his audience that straight-up. Totally different. And he presumably was singing, too, just not the super high stuff...
Milli Vahenlli? Henlli Vanilli?
@@zounds13lololol!!!
Co-signing fraud doesn’t make it less fraud
@@michaelwills1926 It's not fraud if the artist is being honest. Fraud by definition is deception.
As a man who used to repair two way radios and examined many waves using oscilloscopes I can attest the only way you can have two duplicate waves is when they are synthetic, meaning it was either created by a tone generator / oscillator or a recording. Keep up the good work Fil.
Yep, grew up watching my dad's multiple oscilloscopes. Watching Fil takes me back lol.
@@user-vs6hx9ib2o Its been a while, but I remember having fun connecting two audio tone generators to oscilloscope inputs with one input being waveform (frequency and amplitude) and the other controlling the time base (sweep frequency of the display). When rigged correctly you turn your oscilloscope into a spirograph. Then working the controls on the tone generators you can modify the drawing in real time.
@@larrybremer4930 Sounds like fun! I was just a kid, so not sure exactly what was being done, but I loved Spirograph LOL.
@@larrybremer4930 Lissajous figures ! Oh, the fun I had with them (And the bloody blinding headaches they induced after three or four hours !) 😩
Still love analogue 'scopes - truly, what you see is what you've got !
The good thing about using vocal tracks when Henley dies his replacement will sound just like him.
With the money they charge for a show they should be ashamed to perform. Great video Fil as usual. I think this one explains it quickly and easily!
they have no shame. don henley is a nasty piece of work and deserves to be exposed and sued for this.
@@dopiaza2006there are so many ppl making some hard excuses for this that Henley is either waiting for the other shoe to drop, or laughing his ass off
I'm quite sure there's no shame involved. Just millions of dollars
In the last few years, I attended concerts by Brian Wilson and friends, and Felix Cavaliere and friends, both of which featured their respective bands' classic hits. In both concerts, many of the vocal parts originally sung by the headliners were taken by other people in the current bands, hired explicitly for that purpose. No one in the audience objected, to my knowledge. We got to hear good live performances of beloved songs, overseen by the composers who were there, sang parts they could still sing, and talked to the audiences. Why other classic bands don't also do this is beyond me.
Not the point.
Yeah I saw Pet Sounds a few years ago (as well as an opening set of older beach boys tunes) and it was an excellent show. Al Jardines son sang the high parts and performed them wonderfully.
I saw Henley on his 2017 solo tour. For those dates, he featured three background singers who each helped out on the more difficult parts (for example, the bridge in "Sunset Grill" was sung completely by one of the young ladies). He knew he couldn't hit those notes anymore, and no one cared.
@@WayneMarion Actually, you're the one who missed the point. She's saying there are better ways to do it than lip-synching.
Lip syncing live is cheating the audience. The way around this is to lower the key of the song so it fits an aging voice that can no longer hit the high notes and or, as the post above, have background singers sing those high notes while the main performer sings an octave lower or a harmony that complements. It's not fair to dupe loyal fans out of money, otherwise just stay home and listen to the CD.
Expert analysis! Never make apology for exposing deception or fraud! Much respect!
I understood the first time. No matter how good a singer is, how many times they've sang something it's literally impossible for the human voice not to have variations every single time.
Your test (with the trick question) and singing the same note four times really helps to demonstrate that two different vocals will never look identical on the monitoring software.
In my humble opinion after Don Felder left the Eagles were never the same
You meant to say Bernie Leadon
@@maxincountrywerks Both are true.
His book Heaven and Hell about his time in Eagles explained what bastards Eagles corp. are . I'm sure there are sour grapes there too but they cut out his share of the band and he had to sue to get his revenues
The decline started. when Randy Meisner left. No knock on Timothy but Randy was a unique voice that truly couldn't be replaced. You were very diplomatic saying Felder left. He was fired for daring to question where the millions he was owed was going.
Yah, when you lose a guitarist like Fedler,, it hurts, a lot!
I'm glad you've made these videos. The Eagles are notoriously litigious, so you can expect attorney letters any minute. But the truth is on your side.
I think you proved your point sufficiently ......... what a slap in the face to the fans.....
I think Freddie Mercury would LOVE you, and he'd never scam his audience. Keep going, Fil! Love you!
No he would never scam his audience. Even when he had voice cracks & voice issues he always gave his all. Unfortunately, many live vids of Queens concerts have pitch corrected Freddie, & early recordings re- mastered. Not all, but even one is to many! Don’t understand why Brian & Roger allowed it, or maybe it was production co. & they had no control over it.I don’t know, I’m not knowledgeable enough about it, but I do know it was not needed. Sure if he was alive he would not be happy.
Agree. Queen even stated on their albums that they didn’t use synthesizers, instead they used background vocals to fill.
@@Lilah1754 - Maybe they no longer own the rights to the Queen portfolio?
@@MossyMozart I honestly have no idea. Just wish Freddie’s voice was left alone. So not needed 🎶
Freddie's last public performance was 38 years ago when this technology wasn't even a dream. I, too, would like to think he wouldn't use it if he was here today, but he probably would.
I've been to a few Eagles shows over the last 20 years. Always thought they sounded so incredible. After seeing your last couple of analysis videos, I feel completely ripped off by those concert experiences. It's like an athlete taking steroids. Cheating...is cheating.
More like a marathoner riding a major portion of the race in someone's car.
Agree that lip synching is fraud.
I don't think there was lip syncing for all those 20 years. After 2017, yes, but Don seemed to be singing up until the History of the Eagles tour, as well as his solo shows. I saw him a few times, and he had some off performances where his voice was not sounding too good. He probably sounds worse now, but the money is too good and they want people to have a consistent experience.
It's worse...the athlete on steroids is still performing in the event.
Did you enjoy yourself ?/ Was it a fun , memorable event ??
The Colombo of music!❤
I have a friend that had told me the best show he had ever heard was The Eagles, because they spend so much time on set up… hes a very smart person, very nice and honest and also a professional musician..i dont have the heart to tell him
All smoke and mirrors. Intoxicating the audience always helps
Tell him!
@@jamesrudd8705 im just gunna let it lay. Being that music is his livelihood he probably has already heard about and doesn’t need some old dusty hillbilly telling anything haha
If he's that smart, he'll discover this video on his own.
@@rogrog1616 YEP..
Fil, absolutely excellent analysis! I completely understand exactly what you are showing us ! If anyone doubts your analytical skills now, then it is simply that they refuse to accept the proof and the truth ! What a great educator you are ! Well done,Fil💜
I totally agree, Vera. Fil has done a wonderful job and is supremely skilled in assessing this.
@@lizmurphy5994 Absolutely! He is exceptional at explaining the facts! Fil is not only musical , but a teacher as well ! Great guy he is !
Fil, thank you ever so much for educating the public on appreciating music, and learning why music sounds the way it does. Nobody does it better! Now we know why "live" music sounds so good ....
😁
Huge respect to you Fil for exposing this. Zero respect to Henley, his reputation is in the bin.
Thank you again for trying to clarify for some people who were skeptical. I got it on your first voice “forensic” and this time with four different concert vocals it should be crystal clear.
Very good vocal illustration. I thought your first video was clear, but this should eliminate any doubt. I'm not an Eagles fan, but if I was a fan and paid a ton of money for a ticket for this, I'd be pretty annoyed.
I studied audio for years, performed on stage in bands, did audio engineering and he is 100% correct about his audio analysis. Even when I would double track vocals and do the 2nd take only 1 minute after doing the 1st take and even trying to sing the exact same all without changing any settings, the 2 vocal takes would STILL not be the EXACT same.
Having watched the last video I cannot imagine how anyone could believe the vocal track wasn't identical in both performances.
They believe that one of the videos has been faked by using the vocal track from the other video.
I don't see Don's people anywhere denying it lol! Also, it's obviously different footage because of the ambient noises being different.@@johnbriggs3916
@@johnbriggs3916 I got that but unless this is an elaborate collaboration there's no way the dissenters gain credit
Hopium and Copium
They have obviously been defending Henley for years ("he's the best etc") and to accept the truth would reflect upon them.
I remember a live concert of Joe Cocker in Warschau Poland, which made me more appreciative of him as a person and musician. Apparently everybody was waiting for the high C (?) in Little Help. Joe was clearly adding a few repetitions of the preceding strofe in as in an aborted plain landing. In one of them the note was struck by somebody in the public. And finally Joe also tried and did not quite succeed. I realized this being his iconic blessing/curse combo 40 years after Woodstock. I also appreciated him as a person, not shying away and giving us his best in an otherwise great live concert. Thanks Joe.
Its crazy that someone even noticed this to bring it to you, awesome job for catching it!!!!
Great explanation and demonstration. Thank you, Fil. 🎼🎸🤘
You have my condolences for having to listen to this over and over. I hope you aren’t hearing the song in your sleep.
Don‘t get me started, I heard it so many times I could probably lip-sync it life by now😂
Your work is paying off in a big way. I soured on the Eagles years ago so this does not come as a total surprise to me. The picture that is forming in the publics eye after this scandal will be hard to recover from. Can't wait to watch the fallout from this mess. What a rip off.
Fil the most awesome expert and humble humanitarian.
Keep up the superb work! They're discussing your videos over on the Steve Hoffman Music Forum, too, under the title "eagles-miming-video."
Fil will have a legacy.
And the "Micheal Noland - the bottom line" Youtuube channel too.
You’re an amazing teacher, Fil, and this was a fabulous way to explain that facts are facts, not opinion.
Saw Adele start a song on the Grammys (s) she didn't like the start and stopped the song and had them start ahain. That's a live performance! I actually like her live more than recorded. I've heard a lot of older singers who can't hit the notes they used to, but it was okay. I loved the effort and truth. Keep on it, Fil!
Who's to say she didn't fake that so people think "oh it must be live"?
Thank you for this clarifying video. I have to admit that, although I agree with your analysis most of the time, I wasn't convinced that you were correct after watching the first Eagles video. However, with this follow up video, I fully understand what you are saying, and I agree 100%. Thank you for everything you do, and I will continue to watch/enjoy your videos!
Same here. I trusted that Fil knows what he is talking about, but the extra clarification is very welcome for the layperson.
Through all the years and their ups and downs, The Eagles are my favorite band hands down. I’ve seen them live 7 times including 4 in the past couple of years. I was always amazed how Henley’s voice was so strong and consistent during each performance and I kind of wondered and questioned how that could happen especially at his age. Sadly now, I believe I have my answer. I have always throughly enjoyed their shows in an arena setting and I guess I’d rather have great vocals than bad or “off” ones, but I have certainly forked out a lot of money (including for travel) and I’m incredibly disappointed if this is all true, which the evidence clearly shows that it is.
Well, at least you got to see them in person if that is any consolation. I think what really sours the whole fakery is that they could have bowed out and admitted that the voice is going. Or they could have let the voice be real and let the market decide if they want to hear an aging singer sing. Some people do because the ticket prices are affordable.
@@PaintingandExercise For me, it's about how much they charge those who are obviously their most hardened fans to spend the money for tickets, travel and hotel. Laughing all the way to the bank at the foolishness of their fans... McCartney charges a ton, but there's no doubt, that's his 'real' voice, cracks, pitch and all, and his fans still pay that amount to hear him. Says alot about Paul, says even more about Don...
I saw them at Comisky Park in 1978. I remember wondering where Randy Meisner was and why is Joe Walsh singing with them! 😮 I haven’t seen them perform since. I’ve never stopped enjoying their music and knowing that Henley is lip-syncing won’t change anything for me. I can’t afford tickets to their shows anyway.
@@gins8781 I was fortunate to catch their Hell Freezes Over reunion tour w/ Frey, Felder, Walsh & Schmidt. The best show I'd seen by that time.
Henley's actions in the last couple decades continues to erode me of my fond memories of that time to the point I'm done w/ the past and put my energy and ears to the newer rock music that's finally coming back after decades of rap/hip hop/ R&B, dance tracks pervasive on the radio...
He wasn't doing it until recently as far as we can tell.
I went off the Eagles when Don Henley and his army of copyright strikers blocked my cover of one of his songs on my tiny UA-cam channel. In about 17 yrs of uploading covers it was only The Eagles and Supertramp I've ever had outright blocked. He is welcome to do so, however as hobbyist musician turns me off. on the positive side taking them out of my listening opened me up to finding many new and exciting independent artists ...
Same thing he did to a Rick Beato video.....lost all faith in that prick.
Sad excuse for a human being...Joe Walsh too...
Congrats Fil you blew up the internet. Two additional videos on this topic have popped up in my feed; one referencing you specifically. Another gives a close-up analysis of Don and Joe's position while singing into the mic. Strange that their voices don't change when they pull back from an inch away to a foot away. Zero drop-off in volume, haha.
Is it just me that finds it amusing that the song being analysed is Desperado?
I think it more of an pathetic irony.
😂
There are so many variables, but one constant is Fil's integrity. I actually liked the videos before all of the on-screen software displays. I continue to watch just because of the passion.
@a.s.clifton544 - Personally, I love the analysis displays. I am not a musician, so it really helps me understand more about it.
I am dying to hear Don Henley’s response to your analysis. Great work
Whatever his answer will be ,he‘ll probably lip-sync it😂
Dead 😂@@TheSolidheroes
Never gonna happen
If there is a response it will probably be lawyers and a UA-cam copyright strike to try to get the video taken down. It doesn't really matter In "The Long run" because the damage has already been done and Henley just has to "Get Over It!"
He'd blame it all on Felder!
As always, detailed observations and ethical questions raised. I know people's voices decline with age and that is fine. Miming to old recordings and passing them off at expensive "concerts" as live is pure bogus.
Keep up the good work, Fil, I have been learning from you for several years now and aporeciate your professionalism.
Anyone who is on the fence or has doubts about your motion should look at other videos you have done. You are obviously a massive fan of almost all music. You can't hide your admiration for many of the acts you annalise. It's actually what keeps me coming back to your channel. I see you in awe of them at times.
Like you I am a massive fan of the Eagles. I have seen them live twice. What they don't seem to realise is that most people would rather see a live band not being perfect all of the time rather than a perfect recording.
Ignore the nay sayers and keep up the great work.
I truly love to see you smile in admiration at the artists you cover on the channel
Oh man, control freak Don Henley ain't gonna like all this close scrutiny.
😆😆😆
He'll probably threaten to sue!
GOOD!! Let him come!!!!@@ttownkeith
@@candeliseoh so you’ll pay Fil’s legal fees?
Sue for what? Telling the truth?@@ttownkeith
I watched your video from last week and reposted it so people are aware. I LOVE that you clarified here by breaking it down even further. No one can possibly refute this.
This is why I love ya, Fil! Honest and integriity personified. Loyal and happy subscriber here.
Crystal clear and nothing to add. Thank you for your excellent work; for focusing on facts and leaving out any speculations (why, who, what else...).
You tapped into some incredible truth Fil. This is huge.
Its going to be extremely interesting to see what all becomes of all this.
And you did it with knowledge and honesty.
And the great thing is that if Don Henley tries to kick up a fuss, he’ll look like a bigger fraud than he already is.
I predict it will lead to a lot more scrutiny and skepticism regarding "classic" band performances. I guess instrumentalists would not be immune to this sort of thing, except "syncing" would be more difficult with fingers rather than lips.
@@curtvaughan2836 Sadly yes...😔
It gets even better. Watch the Wrecking Crew doc and you’ll learn that nearly all recorded tracks aren’t even by the musicians in the band, they’re by studio players. Looking at you Ringo
@@michaelwills1926 Wrecking Crew studio musicians backed a lot of 60's bands, and as with most studio musicians, got little or no credit for it. It's generally the case that your studio contract includes signing away any rights to royalties and credits. At least Felix Pappalardi got mentioned in the credits of Cream albums, but he wasn't your run-of-the-mill studio hack.
Thank you for posting this explanation of how no 2 vocals can be the same, due to the imperfections of the vibrations of our vocal cords. Some fans who didn't understand this before are now much better informed by your video. If anyone still thinks that Don Henley is truly singing live, they are merely in denial now.
If Henley's fans genuinely loved him, I think they would want to see him perform live to honor and thank him for all the years of incredible music. They would also just want to show their appreciation and respect for giving the most he can regardless of whether he might be off key or not. Clearly, he hasn't thought about this or doesn’t care. Instead, his fans are treated disrespectfully by becoming haughty, conceited, and deceiving.
I think it's extremely important that you've identified this, Fil. I did a little searching on this subject, and I guess I must be very naive because I was reading that it's not that uncommon to do this these days. Somewhere someone wrote, "Notice how they don't advertise 'live and in concert' anymore." Then I guess people who saw your analysis went and studied Eagles videos because I also found a couple of videos made just this past week showing the Eagles lip-syncing at their concerts. I still think that the average concert-goer isn't aware at all that this may be done. I've seen plenty of clearly live concerts by some of my old favorites who can't always hit the notes or remember the words. But that's real! That's what makes a live concert unique and wonderful and human! Why should we pay exorbitant ticket prices to hear recordings we can listen to at home for free?
Very clever, Fil. The quiz with you holding the note for the third time was a perfect way of getting your point across! 👌
Thanks Fil. The Eagles were the band that first got me into classic rock so I can sympathize with people not wanting to believe its true. But it appears to be true, the eagles don't sing desperado live anymore.
I doubt that Don sings anything live any more. There is a video round here showing lip-syncing from him for three songs in 2017 concert.
Great video Fil. So informative. Thanks for sharing them with us. 👍😃
Fil love your input into the music industry, I’ve learned so much from your videos. You. ☘️
This couldn't be any clearer. Very well explained and easy to understand. I still like the Eagles and I respect this honest analysis.
I played the three versions to a pitch-finding app. It was interesting and reassuring to see how all three corresponded exactly with yours. What a time to be alive!
I'll take the Eagles in concert Aug 1978, thanks.
Thanks Fil - it's clear you know what you're talking about when it comes to audio in relation to the pitch software you use.
So many people don't have a clear idea and don't know all the additional details that would need to be accounted for in order to "fake" something like this.
Thanks for all you do.
That was so well explained that there really is no room for doubt. Astonishing. I'm learning so much from these videos. Thank you for making them.
I would say that the first part of the 4 waveforms match as well, they are just are lower volume and the varying audio quality caused more drop outs. But, when it goes high in one, it goes high on all of them at the same time. When it goes low in one, it goes low in all of them at the same time. There is just more distortion, but they are still clearly the same performance, just not quite as obvious as the louder parts. Maybe harder for someone who doesn't understand this stuff, but all the same performance all the way through. Your analysis is spot on IMO. Out of curiosity, I went to the eagles site to look at ticket prices, and I have to say they are far higher than I expected. If a class action forms, it will not end well for mr h and co. Hopefully a very negative legal outcome from such a case will cause changes in the industry to either stop these shenanigans or at least require them to let you know before you buy a ticket, that there will be lipsyncing, so a consumer can make an informed choice whether they want to pay to see something that isn't entirely live.
Fil, you are incredible. Music class has never been so worthwhile and fun. Love your detail love you and everything you have done to increase my life long love and appreciation of music.💛🎶
You nailed it with I cam jump anywhere in between the two performances, and they line up perfectly. Wow!
Excellent analysis. You are great. Thank you.
7:20 it was closer to the second. Good trick question.
The problem with bands lip syncing on some of their songs (even when it's only the chorus or only high part of some songs), is that it makes you wonder when ELSE are they lip syncing, and what is real and what isn't. It also makes you wonder when the band started doing this. Once they fall into the lip sync rabbit hole, you may as well just assume EVERY part could be lip synced at any time, depending upon whether someone has a sore throat that night or whatever. After all, there's big money involved. It should be illegal to lip sync without disclosing it.
There's a video around here where someone managed to film them in 2017 and it clearly shows that Don lip synced everything, and Joe just some parts. There are other videos, like the ones Fil used from 2022, 2023 that show it's still happening. In 2015 Don sang Desperado live in a lower key because he was losing his higher register as people do when they get older. Now, since then he's suddenly able to sing in a higher key again? Not at all likely.
@@lauraallen55 Yeah, sometimes a vocalist will lower the key for an acoustic version of a song and still sing the regular version in the original key, but that’s not the case here since he is now lip syncing in the original key.
Exactly!@@HumbleTrader001
I believe you put towards quality learning explaining greatly with the detail. Thanks, Fil.
Musician and home sound recordist here. As much as it hurts to accept it, you are absolutely right: those recordings are undeniably one and the same. I saw them perform at Earls Court back in 2001 and I hope he was still singing live then! But, on another note, since Mr Henley's people had my instrumental cover of 'Boys of Summer' taken down a year ago and YT slapped a 90-day copyright strike on my channel, I am pleased that he's been exposed as a fraud.
I’m sure that hurt but for you to record his music ( which is what you did) copyright law in the US requires the performer to “Get permission from the copyright holder directly, or license the work according to the terms set by the licensing contract.”
So the bottom line is - you didn’t get a license to record his music and publish it ( ie what you did by posting it on UA-cam). That is copyright law in the US or if you prefer from the musicians union in the UK
“n general terms, copyright is a ‘property’ right. This means that the owner of the right, who can be the author or any person to whom the author has assigned it, has the exclusive right to authorise or prevent others from using their work in various ways. A ‘musical work’ consists entirely of music.”
Since you didn’t get the authorization to his work and you published it - he has every right in the world to protect his work.
As a musician, you should be aware of the basic rights granted to copywrighted works.
I’m quite sure that if you wrote a hit record - you would want to make sure nobody was making money off of your work besides you.
Mr Henley did nothing wrong when it comes to you channel on you tube. I highly suggest you look into and understand copyright law. Especially if you are recording music that somebody else wrote. It will save you grief down the road and it will be something you’ll want to protect any music you write or write and record.
You've opened a can of worms with this ... which is rather excellent ... and also about time someone (as in you Fil) who's credible explaining the process.
Hi Fil,
This was an extraordinarily detailed video. Loved the trick “held note” question. Very interactive… and a good way to really test the/your ear. I think for me the layering of seeing the vocals really sealed DH’s fate here in these performances. But the miming was also pretty clear in the first Eagles analysis video you did of these performances. You are a Super Sleuth and an amazing teacher! Thanks for a great learning experience. Debbie☮️
Great analysis Fil... bang on... absolutely accurate.
Many people when wrong would rather defend their wrongness than learn and change their mind. It is the number one flaw of the human mind. It's a subconscious defense mechanism for the mind to protect its worldview and understanding, no matter how limited or wrong. People with elevated minds are aware of this and can adjust accordingly. People who don't understand how their mind works will cling to their ignorance like an emotional support blanket. They think their limited worldview represents the world. They think their limited understanding is a valid tool for discernment.
Thanks again Fil for taking the time to teach your masterclass to the masses!
Your analysis is spot on, and I appreciate you breaking down complex technical aspects of music and simplifying it in a way that we can all understand. Simply brilliant! Cheers!
I think you made the principles absolutely clear in the first video.
You explained everything.
Very well analysed Fil, you do it with skill, intellect and good articulation. Excellent.
You are always thorough and explain everything clearly. I look forward to each video.