@@FuzzyChubbyPurpleUnicorn All he has to do is play Daggerfall and compare it with even Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls is a good series with great games, but there's no denying it's more of an action series with RPG elements now than an RPG. It's why I'm really looking forward to the Wayward Realms by OnceLost Games.
Reminds me of John Carter of Mars. It's been ripped off so many times by so many people that when the film came out it was accused of being a sad Star Wars rip off, even though it pre-dated Star Wars by 70 years.
Games Workshop: We have copied everyone to create our fantasy and sci-fi universes. Also Games Workshop: Allo allo does your story feature marines in space? See you in court.
That's why now-a-days we got AoS, Orruks, Aelves, Ogors, Duardin... and Aeldar, Primaris Marines, etc. after they got their arses handed over in court a few years ago.
I feel Neuromancer is in the same boat, sadly. So many movies, shows and anime have borrowed from it, that if the movie adaptation ever gets off the ground, it will be labeled a ripoff.
The sad thing about the state of elric is that if a movie or series is even green lit by the time it releases it will be labeled a ripoff by the critics and general audience. I fear it will face the same fate as John Carter. Disney's live action version of John Carter was very faithful to the book it was based on but unfortunately by the time it had came out. Alot of the tropes John Carter invented were played out by other sci-fi series and tv shows.
While I agree that the Witcher is soft plagiarism, Elric had been out a lot longer than Witcher, Moorcock's faults to secure a TV show or video game and seep into the mainstream are entirely his own.
It has taken so long that even if it does go to the screen, it’ll be so woke that all the fun parts will be deleted for being “problematic” and will bomb for being yet another woke disaster.
@@fador1337 this shows your complete lack of knowledge there was a elric tv show that has been floating around Hollywood since 2007 but no network/studio would pick it up do to the odd nature of Elric even by fantasy terms. That was the same year as the first Witcher videogame adaptation.
That runtime is nothing compared to YourMovieSucks’s defense of The Lion King and the false claims of plagiarizing Kimba the White Lion. Now that was a rabbit hole.
when you go into such "plagiarisms" as similar stock-middlages-fighter-clothing, one hour is surprisingly short. I almost expected this "plagiarism" delusion to also cover both characters having hands and feet and so on.
I think this is one situation plagiarism has helped. If Elrich was made into a show/movie today it would be shit. Instead you have the Witcher falling on the sword instead.
I'm also (sadly) Polish living in this sewage for the past 30+ years and I can tell you @Jeenkz K that it would take many of our "fine" citizens for that task to even figure out which way it screws in. As for #@Dragonking1984 said... no... we were coal based... and will be till the last coal nugget gets extracted - probably will dig to the Earth core if that's what it takes. The most eco friendly polish people get is when they sunbathe instead of going to tanning saloon but that's probably more to do with the fact that sunbathing is free. We are generally on average stupid, uneducated, racist and so unfriendly, nationalist and so intolerant it's borderline criminal. We live by our gripes to everyone for the past and will never get out of that loop since all of this is still shoved down the throats of young people each and every day. Our government is corrupt and our legal system is non-existent and/or serving only politicians. I sometimes think that Sapkowski' world of 1245 was more civil than our own here in 2020....
While I think Elric and Geralt are two completely different people, there way to many examples of Sapkowski just being so damn arrogant and stealing to boot. Then you got the Elric writer over here being so humble its wholesome.
@@krzysztofwozny9742 You are kidding right? So if someone steals your hardwork, then you can't be humble if you call it out. Suing is justified if they plagiarize your work to this extent. stop being so stupid.
@@erikswallow858 No you. Tropes, archetypes are older then Moorcuck dated as long as myth and legends (e. conjuntion of spheres is if i am correct from celtic mythology).
Chaos is the source of magic and is signified by an eight pointed star? Wow, Games Workshop wasn’t even trying to hide what they were cribbing from were they?
how about the mystical dying race of pointy-eared immortals called the Eldar? Or the millennia-old stellar empire where space travel is dependent upon people called navigators, AI is illegal and there are highly trained military regiments who specialize in melee combat and hail from hostile death worlds? Or space marines who wear power armor and fight giant alien bugs? Games Workshop's model is "if we plagiarize everything, then we've plagiarized nothing."
There's no bigger creator for fantasy and sci-fi. All our stories really for games, D&D, and 40k have all been Moorcock. It's all been him. I can see every writer took from him. He's got a bunch of Eternal champion series. Not just Elric. He created all our popular game stories. Now we know where blizzard got their stories.
@@Nugnugnug Sure Tolkien was an influence on Moorcock. True that games do use dwarf, elf, and human. But that's as deep as it goes, they don't even act like the Tolkien races do. If you read or heard the audiobook Lord of the rings it's very different from any game. And it's a very different style. But all that dark evil fantasy that you see that's a bit more grim dark as 40k that's Moorcocks. That's what our games are based on. I've lost count it's been Choas described as an evil force corrupting stuff in games, old gods you go to fight at the end, with different planes of existence, Moving between these planes. Man is creating gods rather than gods creating man. Demons summing monsters due to magic or psychic energies. Lord of the rings feels unique even after all this time. Moorcock feels like people just up and took it.
SqueakyPickles It’s a common complaint that it’s basically Star Wars but with dragons. It isn’t sci-fi it’s pure fantasy with dragon riders and magic. But still the story from beginning to end is a blatant copy. I still love it though. Star Wars+lord of the rings = maximum epic fantasy.
Well. Time to read the books it, well, stole from. Will I still love the Witcher? Yes. I will. Because it played a large role in my own fantasy world building. However, you can still love something and critique the ever loving fuck out of it.
@@br1mst0ne54 I love it too, all the way through including the ending which a lot of people hate. For me it's mostly nostalgia, I remember reading them on the playground at school.
I remember the PC game "Elric" back in the late 1990s. Elric was a 3/4 overhead action RPG in the vein of Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate. I saw the reviews of Elric in gaming magazines in 1998, but I was more of a Sega Genesis and PS1 guy back then.
To be fair to CD Projekt, when the plagiarism is this extensive, it's entirely possible to accidentally plagiarize something else when trying to expand upon the source material.
I respect Moorcock for being more concerned with making his art than with jealously protecting his creations and making money. That's what I consider the mark of a true artist, and you don't see it very often these days.
Of course a Ferengi would say that about an unselfish artist. Now which Rule of Acquisition is it that covers plagiarizing Moorcock without Games Workshop sending a hit murder squad to your bedroom.
Probably he didn't thought it was that original since he himself (if I remember correctly) admitted he made Elric just as a reverse Conan / Aragorn to take a jab at them because he didn't liked those characters. And maybe some weird property leftist take of his too.
I’m learning about moorcock and Elric for the 1st time now. Wonder how different things would have been ... bill waterson also upheld such a standard 💜
I think that my major problem with all of this is that The Witcher author STILL to this day refuses to accept the similarities. That would be at least some grade of redemption, but he's too stupid and cocky for that.
@Ring-a-ding-ding baby There is a difference between what Lucas did and Sapkowski did. Almost all "new" ideas are just remixed old ones put into a blender and then put to paper. Lucas is a good example of this. He took the ideas of Dune and added some Buddhist hippy crud and other Asian influences to flesh it out. Sapkowski did almost nothing to distinguish himself from his predecessor other than add in some French Catholic influences a la the Church and Christian version of King Arthur.
I've never realized how much it seems like Moorcock was inspired by Lovecraft...Elric seems to carry a lot of the same themes but with a more heroic bent where you can strive against Chaos...
Likely a mixture of direct influence by Lovecraft, and indirect lovecraftian influence through the Conan stories, the author of which was a contemporary and friend of Lovecraft.
Can you point me the similarities between garelt and edgy guy. The only similarities those two characters have is the title of white wolf and the fact they both have white hair which they both have for completely different reasons
Tbh, Elric is more Badass in my eyes, since his conception was meant to be the opposite of Conan the barbarian while still adhering to some of the typical fantasy elements
He kills his lover and cannot allow himself to truly love again, he is weak, he is ALREADY Emperor of the most powerful kingdom EVER in the Earth's history but wishes NOT to be, a demon/chaos servant, destined to fate, he is the LAST Emperor of his Glorious decadent kingdom whom already has conquered not slain but conquered and domesticated all manner of demons and dragons, He already has the most powerful... i theres just so much in contrast to conan purposeful but its insane!!!
Tolkien also used the Kullervo saga in the Silmarillion, but Tolkien points out every reference from mythology that he used, and also doesn't just claim to use the mythology of his own country exclusively.
Tolkien was pretty upfront with many of his influences. I mean, his style of writing itself is a reference to the prose of Anglo Saxon myths, many of which he personally translated.
Which makes Mr. Douchebag even more moronic in my opinion. The fact that Tolkien's influences are widely known and don't pose a problem is because he told people outright what they were, so if he could connect his last two braincells he would realise that admitting to it would make the controversy ...... go away. But I am sure that at this point he has convinced himself that he didn't take influence
The use of mythological references though is not necessarily plagiarism or at least not actionable plagiarism. They tend to be used though in such a way that they become their own unique entities within the author who wrote them. They may have different personalities or aspects and are just there to add flavor without making up a whole new god. Ripping someone else's entire work and paraphrasing it into your own is plagiarism that is actionable.
Holy smokes, only took 3+ years since this video was promised in the Elric of Melnibone Top Five Recommendations to finally get it. I am excited to see this.
I was introduced to the Witcher first, so I cant help but be a little biased, even when I learn that its author plagiarized. I still enjoy the Witcher, but I think most of us can agree that sapkowski is a greedy little goblin.
Same thing goes for GRRM and Game of Thrones. I enjoy the story, but I disagree with its author on a great deal of things. That, and his bashing of Tolkien's work and his lack of punctuality when it comes to finishing the last two books of his mainline series is annoying as hell. The funny thing is that the Witcher games were more popular than either the novels or the TV show ever were. Sapkowski doesn't want to admit that a bunch of game devs made his baby into something far better than he could make.
I'm 50. I grew up with Elric already in the getting long in the tooth stage of things. I read the books and liked them, but thought of Elric as older fantasy like Conan (much older) and Thieve's World. So when I first encountered The Witcher my very first reaction was, so um that's Elric.
He has cute fan theory but he is mixing inspiration with copying. And a lot of what he points out are old ideas that were used long before the Elric books.
As a Cirith Ungol listening D&D playing nerd teen in the 1980's Elric was the absolute favorite fictional character of myself and all of my friends. That being said I was a bit relieved that the Elric series was cancelled. The Witcher series on Netflix is mediocre at best, If Elric was done like that, damn that would just break my heart.
But on the other hand, it may have opened up the Elric books for everyone who never knew about him. I personally found out about Elric after starting to get really into Sword & Sorcery at the same time I started listening to Cirith Ungol, but I did however know about The Witcher before that. Not what the Witcher was about and I didn't care for it, so this video was really interesting to see the similarities. So informing people about this might just get more interested in the Elric stories?
Dude. Now i dont want to put words in your mouth. But i think your more into seeing a tv show made by pationate people than netflix. Because those are the people that make things you enjoy come to life. If thats the case i agree.
I think I'd rather see Elric done as a competent animated series made by someone who respects the source material. I'm sure someone out there could pull it off.
@@robwalsh9843 Right? Because if it was live action, they'd pick some well known celebrity to play Elric, like Keanno Reeves or someone totally unsuited, like Tom Cruise as Lestat, or Sean Connery as Allan Quatermain. But maybe if they picked relative unknowns like Game of Thrones mostly did, someone who was passionate about the books could pull it off as a series. I mean Game of Thrones did a reasonably good job of translating the first 3 or 4 of the Song of Fire and Ice books before it started to veer out of control. The Night King in the last season of GoT was giving me some serious Elric vibes btw...
"Not Licensed from someone else..." Minor correction, Cyberpunk is an IP of R. Talsorian Games, brainchild of Mike Pondsmith. Still not an original work for CDPR.
I feel as though saying it's not an original work is a bit misleading. Cyberpunk itself isn't a new or original ip but Cyberpunk 2077 is original to CDPR as it's essentially created from the ground up by the original creator of the ip itself in tandem with the developers. Cyberpunk 2077 is set in a slightly different setting and time from the RPG so it's not as much an adaptation as it is a new story in the universe told by the team and Mike Pondsmith as a whole. It's a bit of splitting hairs because yes it's licensed by Mike Pondsmith but when the person who licensed and wrote the ip is helping create the game it gets a bit weird.
@@Daysleeper1990 Actually CP2020 follows directly from the original edition Cyberpunk which was set in 2013. Cyberpunk Red covers the period between them and 2077. It's a continuation.
Isn't cyberpunk a continuation of shadowrun and shadowrun the video game representation of William Gibson's "Sprawl" series? So as far as IP goes it seems to be equivalent Author to Author to game vs Author to Game to Game as far as distance from source 3 steps away on both. The main difference would seem to be theft on the first vs authorized use on the second.
@@shoeflytoo Yes, I lost my shit! Thinking he may have been fucking with me, but he was decade younger, so you can't blame for assuming he was serious.
One point of disagreement. Doomed heroes have long been part of fantasy and myth and can't be considered to be a relatively new invention. King Arthur sows the seed of his own destruction and forfeits his life.
@@Masterblader158 In their own very different ways both Tolkien & MM wanted to take fantasy back to its substantial adult roots. MM didn't think JRRT went far enough.
the other thing with sapkowski that i don't like, he does not think the popularit of the witcher had anything to do with the game, he never had much faith in video games being a medium for telling stories. mean while the author of the Metro series knows that his books got more popular because of the games.
That’s not really what he said. He stated that the Witcher was already very popular outside of Poland before the games which is true. Still it was largely only popular in Eastern Europe
While that was indeed the case not too long ago that's not so anymore. After the recent success of the television adaptation Sapkowski has completely changed his tune and now appreciates the games giving their developer his blessing. He now looks forward to a Witcher 4 and I beleive even offered to advise on the story. However I still don't think he ever acknowledged the games aiding his success at all.
Yes and I just finished playing through Soul Reaver 2 damn fine series I'm about to play Defiance the final game in the series for the first time ever so here's hoping the bad things I've heard are just hyperbole
@@darthkai3621 the difference there is that Star Wars ripped off Campbell more, plus Lucas was always up front about what his influences were. There's a lot of Flash Gordon too especially in the second one (the cloud city).
zimriel Precisely - it’s the same case Razor makes in favor of Moorcock as well. As cynical as this sounds now, I am of the opinion that nothing is *truly* original anymore - inspirations are fine, it’s ridiculous to assume that anybody isn’t inspired by the stuff that came before. Witcher is just Diet Elric, and the author should he ashamed of himself for such blatant plagiarism. And the fans who mindlessly defend Witcher don’t know what they’re defending.
I play D&D with a polish guy, so you can imagine how often I get an earful about the Witcher and how cool it is. Gonna link him this video next time he pisses me off
And then there's a Slovak Series called the Warlock, which rips off both of them. A guy with an evil, soul-eating sword travels the land and slays monsters with author even admitting he meant to write a "slovak witcher".
I love The Witcher, but I have to admit, it's impossible to argue with you on this. Michael Moorecock may have taken his inspiration to create Elric of Melniboné and the world from various other sources, but at least he was open and honest about it. Given how many similarities The Witcher has, Andrzej Sapkowski could've at least done that, as there's no way it's a mere coincidence.
I mean... yeah it was copied, more from Solomon Kane. But I'm a layman, so for me what's better than Elric or Solomon Kane? MORE Elric and Solomon Kane :)))
We are talking about Andrzej here who was forced to begrudgingly admit that the video games were well-written after getting roasted internationally for saying that you couldn’t tell good stories in them. Despite the fact that because the games were so well-written that they are the only reason a majority of people know about them in the first place.
It is possible because it is not true - only simmilarities (and valid points of criticizm) are those tied with the looks of protagonists and the conjuntion of spheres - that is not valid point - that term is from celtic mitology and therefor ripp off it.
Two of my most favorite characters are Mal from Firefly and Geralt of Rivia. This was eye-opening. It makes me sad that people who blatantly cheat and steal get away and win more than not. I still love Geralt and the Witcher, but now that I have more context. Guess I should check out Elric and pay homage.
People fail to get the point here. Plagiarism has nothing to do with similarities. It has to do with passing off others ideas as your own original ideas without giving credit to the original. Example. In the 30s many Shadow clones popped up in comics and pulps but almost all of them admitted to it being based on the Shadow.
I never cared for Witcher series and I am Polish. Trust me, Sapkowski fanboys are even more irritating in Kielbasa land. Witcher was released in Poland when we were just getting access to all awesome fantasy books and properties, so most people just did not know better. Heck, until the 90s we did not have proper copyright law so ripping off properties was common, one of the most popular boards games (Magiczny Miecz) was for example a shameless copy of Game Workshop Talisman. The sad thing is that polish authors have written far more interesting fantasy and sci-fi books. Sapkowski wasn’t that popular in Poland at the time of the first game, with his newer books not selling that well. It is the game that made him relevant again. A shame they did not choose a more worthy author.
In Russia in the 90s one author wrote a sequel to Lord of the rings and after that he put Tolkien's world inside his own multiuniverse. The Hobbit is still in public domane here, becouse it was first published in 1970s.
Do you have any recommendations for good Polish sci-fi/fantasy? I'm always looking to expand my personal library, even though I'm not yet able to read languages other than English.
@@mathphysicsnerd - Well from my experience unless a polish book gets a tie in that sells millions of copies world wide its unlikely to get a translation :P But It wouldn’t feel right not to mention Stanislaw Lem, with The Invincible and Solaris being my favorite books of his. I can honestly put this guy with the like of Philip K Dick or Isaac Asimov as one of the main influences that shaped modern sci-fi. Ya know, one of the guys that inspired other authors instead of ripping them off ;P
@Rocker01ndomablE Bloody hell, don't you guys know Moorcock had his own band (Deep Fix) and has been performing/recording commercially since the 60s. His latest came out Sept. 2019! LIVE FROM THE TERMINAL CAFE. He's performed on stage with several bands and was regularly in the Hawkwind lineup. He's also done session work on various fretted instruments and most of his friends are musicians.
@Rocker01ndomablE Who do you think wrote "Sonic Attack"? Moorcock was collaborating with Hawkwind PRECISELY during their golden era. Still not sure why your cutoff point is the middle of the Calvert years yet you forget Hawklords and PXR5...., after which it did indeed turn to crap.
Agree to the fullest Razor but I would like to add one thing: Frostmourne does not work on the same principle as Stormbringer. Frostmourne is more of a soul trap that gives The Lich King a portion of his power and upon the shattering of it all the souls where set free. The main power of the Lich King is the Helm of Domination that gives him control over the undead and glimpses into the shadowlands among other things that I forgot the lore. And I can bet you my copy of Warcraft 3 someone on the design team of the game was a big fan of Elric.
Original lore: Frostmoure is a weapon forged by Nerzhul when he stole the universes most powerful artifacts using their power (along with Plate and Helm), it "radiates" cold as it saps life and instantly destroys the soul of those it slays (which is in 1 hit in almost every case). It has no will of its own, it just hungers for more death and destruction till ones own soul is lost to it. It also doesnt boost the powers of its wielder by draining souls, but merely by wielding it in the first place, nor does it have any magic that can be cast from it (or is the host/prison of a powerful demonic creature that somehow isnt a dragon but is). Its runes are (supposedly) there to bind the undeath of the whole set together to let the wielder "dominate" those slain back as undead (but are actually a reference to WHFB+LOTR by being elvish for warhammer). And maybe (as Frostmourne shares more similarities with ravenbrands/mournblades side of powers than stormbringer, even part of the name), but the much bigger influence is making a dark twist on king arthur+the one ring. RPG for 3.5 then made it a demonic ancient weapon instead of forged by Nerzhul during his WC2 quest, WOW then retconned it into just a soul sucking blade and not being indestructible anymore. WC3 remaster then by being released retconned it all back into its original place.
Shame on you Raz0r: Trying to confuse me with facts, when my mind is made up already. (You did the same thing in your Michael Jackson videos.) Curse you sir!
@@MetalGearyaTV i'm not even an MJ fan, hell I believed he was guilty based on ad populum until i watched razor's video. the facts speak for themselves
I known Sapkowski personally, we know he took loads of "inspirations" from multiple sources. Example: monster in a dumpster (second written Witcher short story) is from AD&D monster compendium. I know because I leased him my copy of it (he was looking for interesting monster for the story). But nothing's going to happen here, Witcher is now a huge franchise, too much money involved.
The Witcher obviously has drawn inspiration from different stories that it takes and puts an adult spin on. Uses lots of folk tales, the first two books and the games are also filled with them. I thought it was obvious that the Witcher is not an entirely original work.
@@BeachlessIsland The problem is not that he takes inspiration, is that he denies taking some of these inspirations despite it being obviously the case.
@@skyrimLEGION you don't. Possibly I could find somewhere photos from Nordcon 91 or 92 when this happened. We were drinking with E. Dembski, I was in the same SF club in Wroclaw. Even monsters name is same or similar, so quite easy to check for someone who has AD&D books.
@@sephikong8323 Thing is, he's absolutely full of himself. SF autors in Poland were always treated as inferior people by mainstream, so imagine a small city clerk who became famous internationally. Easy to get lost in your newfound fame.
"Sapkowski began as a polish translator of English novels" CD Projekt began as a company that made polish translations of English (language) video games Coincidence? I think not
I agree with your main point, that Sapkowski was clearly very heavily inspired by Moorcock, and that it's pretty shitty of him that he keeps refusing to admit it. However, I have to nitpick a few individual points. First and foremost, while, yes, the name "The White Wolf" is the second most clear example of plagiarism on display here, your explanation of the in-story origins of the name is completely false. The massacre at Blaviken may have earned Geralt the title "Butcher of Blaviken," but it has nothing to do with the title "White Wolf." As you said, the dryads came up with that name for him, and there were no dryads or elves anywhere near Blaviken at the time. Similarly, while the excerpt about Elric may have been the first time, in text, that he was called the White Wolf, the person calling him that also makes it clear that he was known by that name before that scene, so any similarity between the two scenes is irrelevant to the White Wolf argument. The argument that the name is an example of plagiarism is strong enough on its own that you don't need to grasp at obvious straws to try to make it stronger. Similarly, I think the idea that CDProjekt was trying to help cover up the plagiarism is grasping at straws, too. Of course they didn't go into as much detail about the Conjunction of the Spheres in The Witcher 2; it was a smaller, more grounded story, in which Geralt had neither the in-story opportunity or in-game need to pad out content that allowed him so many opportunities to get involved in metaphysical debates as in the first and third games. And I don't think that making your main character more attractive as you get better at using the technology required to do so implies any more sinister motivations than "we want to sell games." Also, comparing the armies of Nilfgaard to the armies of Chaos? What? They're just a stand-in for the Roman and/or Byzantine Empires. They're the most orderly institution in the entire series, and make every place they conquer significantly better for everyone except maybe mages, and even that's debatable. The war they caused is chaotic, simply due to the nature of war, but Nilfgaard itself? The only comparison I can think of is the fact that they wear black. I get your overall point that The Witcher has a strong theme of order vs. chaos, and that this was very likely lifted from the Elric series, either directly or by copying other series' that were, themselves, influenced by Elric, but I don't think this is a very good argument to prove that point. Finally, while you touch on it a bit when you discuss them both being mercenaries, I think you're overlooking the fundamental difference between Elric and Geralt. Geralt is, at his core, a blue collar version of Elric. Elric may be a mercenary, but there is nothing blue collar about him. If anything, I'd say that The Witcher shares as many themes with Ghostbusters as it does with Elric, if not more. In a world where the supernatural exists, some entrepreneurial sort is going to put together some sort of exterminator agency. It's going to be dirty, unpleasant work, and people will hate them, but it will be necessary. That's the core theme of The Witcher, as a series. It may have started out with putting this exterminator character into fairytale or folklore-based situations, and branched out into seeing how this character would fare in a Moorcock style Eternal Conflict situation, but the blue collar exterminator being in those situations was always the central conceit of the story. And yes, it may have danced around those changes by giving Ciri the role Elric plays in the narrative, while Geralt gets his look and many of his character traits, but it's still a fairly significant difference, and one I feel is worth commenting on. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your central argument, I just think you're trying to prove to much. Oh, and ending the rant with a Polish joke about screwing in lightbulbs was freaking inspired. Keep up the good work. Edit: Oh yeah, and "doing their own thing, not in a property they licensed from someone else?" Huh? Does R. Talsorian Games mean nothing to you? Cyberpunk is totally a licensed setting. (And it's coming out in 2020, no less!)
@Timothy Dexter No, he didn't. Gwynbleidd is what the dryads called him, which is Elven for "White Wolf", in regard to his appearance. "The Butcher of Blaviken" was the only nickname he picked up for his part in the massacre at Blaviken, and it was bestowed upon him by regular folk, particularly those in Redania, not dryads who are isolationists in a forest near Cintra.
@Timothy Dexter Uh... you do know that R. Talsorian Games is the name of Michael Pondsmith's company, right? He's a creative consultant on the game, but not a CDProjekt employee. From Wikipedia: "CD Projekt's Marcin Iwiński divulged that Pondsmith's involvement in the video game development mostly focuses on the game world aspect and mechanics and his input, though constant, does not happen on a daily basis due to the distance between the parties." So, yeah, Cyberpunk is clearly a licensed product.
I’m in your boat: Yeah, the foundations of the Witcher series are ripped off wholesale from Elric. I had an argument with Razor in the comics where he made a citation that I, quite simply, could not reconcile and I realized he was right: The two universes’ major, worldshaking event, the Conjunction of the Spheres and the Conjunction of the Million Spheres, is simply too close a similarity for it to be sheer coincidence. Couple this with the fact that Sapkowski was working as a fantasy novel translator the same year the Elric books came to Poland(as well as him “coming up” with the first Witcher writings that same year), and I have to say that it’s high time Sapkowski gave up the ghost. That said, the Witcher series has forged an identity of its own through subsequent transformation of the materials its based on that I disagree with Razor when he says(in other discussions) and implies in this video that the Witcher’s entire legitimacy as a franchise is gone because of this.
@@innoclarke7435 If I remember correctly they did. During an interview with Game Informer back in around 2009 or 10 I believe. It was detailed in the newest issue of the magazine with Max Payne 3 being the focus of the issue. In one of the statements made by either one of the developers or head honcho's of Rockstar there was a mention of influences and Man on Fire was mentioned. To be fair Its been years since I read that issue, much less anymore issues afterward so I may be misremembering things.
Maybe I’m the only one who wants this, but I’d love to see Razor make a Popular Plagiarism on The Shadow and Batman. I’m aware there are other documentaries that cover this, but I love the way Razor explains the history of topics like this.
@@leblanc3536 Ah, OK. I was not made entirely aware. I think I heard that before and forgot it. Any documentaries on that subject? I’d love to learn more, but I’m not sure what to look up.
@@ThunderClapClide he admitted to it in Jim Steranko's History of Comics, Volume 2. Hell, they actually hired Shadow writer, Walter B. Gibson, to write detective comics stories for Batman
@@ThunderClapClide Yeah, batman is openly inspired by the shadow, and has been many times stated as starting from the concept of "what if the shadow was in the world of superman".
Common fantasy tropes. Authors should admit to their inspirations though. The Dark Tower series was heavily inspired by LOTR. King admits this. I have the first book in the Wheel of Time series, but have not read it and don't know it's inspirations.
TheirLoveCan'tCutOurKnife !!! Wheel of Time is steeped in common fantasy tropes, I almost put it down because of it, but it’s definitely more an ensemble character story with the fantasy stuff being dressing. If you have the time, I highly recommend the series
@@theirlovecantcutourknife3253 The first book is just worse Lord of the Rings, but Robert Jordan has flat out said that he just considers it his take on Fellowship of the Ring. The other books are immediately more original and interesting, and until book 7 or so, are on a steady incline of quality, though they do still have many familiar tropes. About the only thing which feels like uncredited theft is some stuff that feels WAAAAY too similar to Dune. I recommend them if you have the time, and a tolerance for petty drama and repetitive prose. Great character work, and Rand is possibly the greatest fantasy protagonist of all time.
Templar Knight I actually didn’t feel that way about Sanderson picking up the books. I felt that A Memory of Light was an excellent finale to the series, though I always wondered how much Jordan left in his notes and how much Sanderson came up with.
@@theirlovecantcutourknife3253 The Wheel of Time works many of old myth and legend into its world as a form of inspiration but also as a form of world building. Without getting into spoilers; The Wheel of Time takes place on Earth, yes our Earth, during a 17th century period of time minus the guns. The general premise of the world is that time is largely circular, a pattern woven on the Wheel of Time. There are different ages on this pattern and all mythology in our own world are reinterpretations of events from other ages. For example King Arthur is from Emperor Hawking after the age of Legends. The myth of Odin is meant to be based directly on one of the main protagonists in the Wheel of Time. The story takes place after the Age of Legends, and our own world is currently at the beginnings of the Age of Legends. People in here have pointed out issues they had with the francise but I wouldn't take their positions as law. Different people see things about the series very differently . For example I wasn't even aware that people hated the so called slog books before I went online and joined the forums. I found those books to be some of the best parts of the franchise. The series is read better as one large story rather than a series as there are no time jumps. As to the first book being a worse fellowship of the ring; Robert Jordan was not able to get the book published without leaning heavily into the popularity of the book. The publisher's explicitly asked him to write the first book that way to see if it would gain a following, after which he was free to do what he wished. As to it being a worse version, the intention was for it to be a more grounded and realistic version of the fellowship, not to be better than it.
@@mycaleb8 Malus is an evil torturer who cuts people's faces off for fun. But he gets caught up in an adventure to save the world. If you can root for a bad guy, then you will really enjoy the story. Lots of twists and backstabs, epic fights, cool monsters... What sets the Malus stories apart from the others is that everyone is evil, so he can't trust anyone.
@@whssy You know, in Total War: Warhammer 2, he is sometimes called Malus OF Hag Graef. At some point, we'll find out that all of their mom's names were Martha.
One of those weirdo Eastern European witcher fanboys here. Now this is more like it. This is what should have been in your video from 2013 which in comparison sounded just lazy and petty as if it was the games that did this. I'm of the opinion that both books and games can be shat upon but only by those who played or read them (or at least tried to). I don't know about earlier period but ever since I was following witcher (not that long actually, circa 7 years) it was known at least among forum dwellers that went deep into these books and sideworks that Elric was used as a prototype for Geralt. Most mainstream readers never go into these sideworks (so yeah you should watch your lightbulbs) but it's as close as you'll get to finding admission of influences for the witcher from Sapkowski himself . And really you should also know how these works originally came to be. I mean when Sapkowski wrote that first short story he didn't even think he'd have entire series of books or that he would become "Polish national treasure". It was basically just a fan fiction silly story written for contest and then it went it's own way from there. I think he kinda wanted to make a satire of Elric and similar brooding characters and thus made him into glorified pest-control. It was done precisely because Elric was the newest stuff translated. But these references went completely over the heads of general audience who were not as nerdy as Sapkowski so they asumed it was completely original work and it went from there. Better word for it is a knock-off rather than plagiarism. Over the time he morphed bunch of the stuff that he initially ripped off completely but even so entire nature of the witcher world is a sort of parody or a twist to more famous fantasy worlds, farytales and real life. There was nothing secret about it, it is the main theme. And he never hid anything just wasn't shouting it out loud. For example in his fantasy compendium from 2002 called "A manuscript found in a dragon's cave" which is about the closest thing to him saying "here's a list of fantasy creatures from worlds that influenced me" he explicitly mentions Moorcock in the introductory part and at one more place. I mean guy doesn't have to write post scriptum and love letter to Moorcock, Tolkien and DnD creators on the backside of every book for you to know they influenced him. He doesn't do many interviews especially not in English. In those he does he adopts sarcastic over the top trollish persona where you never know what he actually thinks and since most interviewers are Polish they are sycophantic towards him so they never ask him these questions. Your conclussion would've made more sense if he ever outright denied being inspired by Moorcock when asked. I mean just look at GRRM, by this criteria he ripped off Memory Sorrow and Thorn and never even mentions it among his influences yet no one made a video calling him out (you might be the chosen one for it). Nevertheless I guess just to keep things neat and clear Sapkowski should say at some point "oh btw I liked Moorcock, but I thought Elric was a bit stuck up so I changed him into Geralt"
Thanks for the additional info and context! Cultural context is often difficult to interpret, so trying to look into Sapkowski's personality from an outside perspective probably added to the negative perception of him. Even before this video I have to admit I had a rather negative view of the man (not his work) due to stories I've read, but all those were from a strictly US perspective. I don't think it invalidates what is said in the video (this probably would be held up in a court of law in the US, though I disagree with the need for such action), but your perspective makes for a fine addendum.
@@the_mask1 Ево сад видех. Знам доста о томе, периодично се залудим. Нисам чини ми се од тад улазио на клип. А и ретко читам yt обавештења ал ето судбина: Погледах једном у ко зна колико месеци и неко на српском даде коментар ;). Није лош Рејџ ал напоран је постао са овим. ' Тако ми слатко наишло тог дана. Више ме нервирало ликово одбијање да се информише него само мишљење које има. Запео главом у зид XD. Сад гледам да пишем краће, мада сам eтo овде све изложио.
I would like to point out that White Wolf or the Wolf Totem is a really old tradition in Slavic culture. According to the old pagan religion Dajbog (Dazbog, one of high deities) transformed into white wolf. This was often recreated by Slavic warriors by wearing wolf skin. If I am not mistaken Saxo Gramaticus wrote about it. In some Slavic traditions Slavs are descendants of wolves. Wolves play a huge role in Slavic culture in general. People were often named Vuk or Volk (depending on language/dialect, meaning wolf). Some Roman legions wore wolf skin but for a different reason and with no cultural similarity. Similar can be found later with Germanic people, where the most famous example would be Mozart - Wolfgang Amadeus, where Wolfgang means wolf's tracks, and he got the name to fear off disease and death since children died often at the time. Similar Wolf Totem and White Wolf traditions can be found among Mongols and Vikings as well as North American natives and probably many other nations. According to all ancient beliefs involving wolves and white wolves they can be boiled down to four things: wolves have incredible stamina, are powerful animals and once in a fight they don't back down, they are cooperative and lead by an alpha. One doesn't have to dig much to find historical figures compared to or named Wolf or White Wolf in various cultures. This being said, any use of a name White Wolf and comparison to wolf or wolves generally can not be stated as being plagiarism since it exists for centuries, even millennia. It is almost the same as with calling someone The Great, which some kings/emperors were called. Also, this does not mean the nick name White Wolf wasn't stolen from Elric, it means that the very nick name is not original in the first place. A note: which historical record is first and which nation used it first doesn't matter, most nations developed their own religions and beliefs independent of each other, and the Slavic mythology is mentioned and described more than others for two main reasons: authors of Witcher are Polish thus Slavic, and I'm more familiar with Slavic mythology than other (not that I'm an expert or anything even close).
Yep Slav here and white wolf or wolfs in general are important in out miths. One of our God Weles love to change themself into wolf and not ordinary one but white.
@@ber_ Which is why you find first edition books or don't bother. Additionally, *Vampire: the Masquerade* first edition includes _the full Sabbat information basics._ No need for an additional book to play the other half of the clans.
Turin Turambar, an exiled prince wandering throughout a grimdark fantasy world, carrying a black blade which he uses to kill his best friend, his wife (related to him) and himself; wearing a dragon helm, and is doomed. Written by Tolkien, predating Moorcock, but published after.
Good point. This fantasy archetype is probably more common than Razorfist lets on. The uncanny similarity in the details between Geralt and Elric is what gets me.
I've only read the Elric stories; I haven't read The Witcher, played the games or seen the Netflix series so I find this very illuminating. Andrzej Sapkowski is fortunate that Michael Moorcock is such a chill guy.
I think you made a mistake at the end of the video, where you seem to say that CDPR's Cyberpunk game is original and not licensed from someone else, but it is licensed. Mike Pondsmith created the Cyberpunk tabletop rpg series, and CDPR is licensing that to create a video game adaptation. However, I do agree wholly with your take: the difference between plagiarism and influence is citation. I still like the Witcher series, I think it carries enough originality that it can be enjoyed and differentiated. But until Sapkowski acknowledges his sources of inspiration, those unoriginal bits can be considered plagiarism. I mean, all art is derivative, but some people (like Moorecock) have the balls to admit it.
I just hope that CP2077 will be different enough from the rest of the cyberpunk genre that already exists, like Blade Runner or Deus Ex... I can't take another couple of years trying to defend the Polish entertainment media from Razor before I eventually admit that they probably stole ideas from other people.
@@wulfricofwessex147 Every idea ever has been stolen. Nothing in the universe is original. If someone is pissed off you became rich off their idea, they are just jealous you are better than them.
@@wulfricofwessex147 Most stories in the witcher 3 were original or heavily inspired by slavic folklore , something the writers of the game are completely transparent about , so wtf is your point? Mike Pondsmith spent alot of time in Poland to work with CDPR to make sure the games writing fits his universe and can be considered canon. He even created a continuation of cberpunk 2020 with Cyberpunk RED to bridge the story gap from 2020 to 2077( the name is not a refference to CDPR as he has stated multiple times in interviews, it was established before 2077 was conceptualized) . And mike Pondsmith is also very transparent with his influences, so do CDPR have to go out of their way and include any influences of mike , instead of just using him as a reference and therefore by proxy aknowledging the sources He has been influenced by?? Andrzej is the one not admitting influence, not CDPR . Get it right.
No. You cant commit plagiarism when over 90% of your work is unrelated, 4% shared by same source older than both and MUCH more popular than either even to this day with at best 6% actual similarities (with only one idea, that isnt even executed the same way, actually being stolen/CoS in name and core of concept copied).
I am more familiar with Elric but I still know a thing or two about Geralt. Elric isn't even an anti-hero. He is a realistic villain, he genocided his homeland neither for "order" nor for revenge. He did it to cement the superiority of his philosophy. The "True Emperor" they craved would kill them all and Elric just proved his point. Geralt is a realistic hero, he get cranky but in the end he generally does the right thing. Lots of people steal from Moorcock but none have made an Elric. So I have to thank the man for letting me enjoy Geralt as well. Bug GOD DAMN will we ever get an Elric movie FFS?
To be honest, his homelanders were cunts who deserved what happened to them. So were the Pang Tang guys. He isn't good, but I wouldn't say he is a villain either.
So we have - Elric is a Grey haired character that weilds 2 swords (occasionally), uses magic in the form of elements (earth, wind air, ether) and is a drug addict. These drugs enhance his performance. He is a mercenary pirate for hire. He is a mutant. He is called the white wolf. Geralt is a grey haired character that weilds 2 swords and uses magic in the form of signs (I wouldn't go as far as to say elements but that isn't a defining characteristic to either so it doesn't matter. You also clearly attempt to make this look like a clear copy when you take a dialogue about djinns out of context.). He uses potions that he dislikes using to enhance himself. He is a monster hunter for hire. He is a mutant. He is called the white wolf. There is clearly a massive amount of inspiration taken here but from here it diverges. Elric is an elven emperor hero with a soul eating sword. Geralt was a human that was taken at birth and (attempts to) remains politically neutral and never is given a political status. Regardless, I can see how you would say that geralt is a clear rip off of elric. Now for the remainder of the video centring around ideas of chaos, fate and destiny. How these ideas shape the worlds. They are very similar for each but they are all very vague concepts that are not specific, defining characteristics of elric. This can be put down as inspiration and could never be taken as plagiarism. You are taking very VERY broad ideas within the franchise and trying to say that since they share these broad themes, it is taking intellectual property. They have the same themes because they are common in that genre and Moorcock does not own the genre All of the fantasy franchises that I am heavily in to have an arguement for 'ripping off' elric in this regard. The best thing you have in this is taking the symbol of chaos. Nilfgaard being the black armies that represent chaos... not so much because nilfgaard values law and order and a ring with 8 points can not be considered the same design when it has other design features such as it being the great sun that lights their path and in other designs having 16 points for the fully detailed sun. The Salamandra symbol has a better case for plagiarism but he never did get a patent on that symbol. I'd put it down to inspiration. So all I can see is that they share an extremely broad theme, which even if elric was the first to, doesn't amount to copyright infringement. The most specific theme being that magic comes from chaos which is a little lacklustre to claim plagiarism. Tolkien has a far better case on everyone that uses elves, orcs and dwarves. The main characters are very similar in aesthetic but not in personality and story, even if the stories share a single theme. The witcher takes far, far more from shakespeare (which incidentally also featured fate and destiny) and the legend of king arthur in philosophy.
I also found it a little cheeky how he presents the video as a criticism of Sapkowski's plagiarism specifically and then goes on to use things that are unique to the games as evidence, such as the Salamandra's design featuring the chaos symbol. Is it likely that Sapkowski used elements of Elric to create Geralt? Yeah, definitely. But besides from that I think that's where the similarities in both series start to get far too vague to be deemed plagiarism.
Yup. I dont care how many times this smug dickhead UA-camr tries to make it seem like a straight up rip off, its extremely obvious that Sapkowski only took elements of the story and characters and went his own way. Sure he makes a few good points here and there, but if he truly can't see the differences that make the overall stories unique, then I pity him. All in all, if there is a plagiarism case here, then someone oughta tell the Tolkien estate that they can sue almost every single fantasy author and filmmaker ever.
4 роки тому+4
@@CurryFeatures "I dont care how many times this smug dickhead UA-camr" You lose any and all arguments when that's all you've got.
Damn why is everyone plagiarizing my boy Moorcock.... First it's the Witcher stealing from Elric saga and now it's Attack on Titan stealing from The Eternal Champion. Let this man catch a break.
Although being inspired by other writers and taking elements from certain stories is something that happens a lot , sapkowski should've atleast been truthful and say that he atleast took inspiration from elric because there are too many " coincidences " here
@@jacquestube I remember havjbg ti explain this before and it went like this. "How many unlikely coincidences make a pattern? Three. Because if you ever flip a coin, and guess what side it is. A game of complete random chance. By the time you get tails twice you are more likely to say heads because even though the odds are still 50/50 the odds in your head are actually 12.5/87.5 Tails to Heads. Because humans add random chance together. And that is why it only takes three, any man examining a coincidence who is objective and is clear of mind will add the odds together. And this is what many are doing in order to defend the indefensible plagiarism of the Witcher. They are acting as though the few dozen or so of tails aren't that unlikely when looked at on their own. Which is why they argue on singular and individual points of contention. To obscure the sheer number there are. And they do have a point, these single points of contention dont have unreasonable chances of being coincidence. It's when they are all put together that it shatters their point. 2 or 3 tails is fine. But 50 is unreasonable. And that's effectively what they are doing. Masking the 50 tails by focusing on one or two chances and pointing out the reasonable unlikeliness of them and not the unreasonable unlikeliness of the coincidence as a whole."
Sapkowski has never hidden his inspiration from Western mythology and literature, and this guy for a good morning (2:08) says that "the original inspirations are in Polish myths". They are not and never have been, so the first argument is invalid. Some small part maybe. Then he extracts the information that Geralt is an albino. Well, it is not, because he was not born that way, and white hair is the result of mutations and trials. The eyes are also not red or white skin. He extracts a fragment about how Geralt has a face with the color and texture of a skull "well, just like Moorcock's Elric" - only that it is taken out of context, because Wiesiek is after potions then and normally he looks healthier. Then I decided that it was a waste of my time to continue talking about this guy.
Didn't know about Elric until you discovered your channel and I love the Witcher series and slowly finding my love for Elric series too. Didn't know that it's a work of plagiarism until then, which is a shame cause its quite a good fantasy series. Although the injustice in this whole situation is that one became a symbol of a nation and one can't even get a TV series green lit because of similarities its shared with the works that it got plagiarised by. A true shame cause I personally would love tool see a Elric series with Game of Thrones level of budget.
Witcher 3 is a symbol because in a way it represents the modernization of Poland. Poles being poor is a trope We desperately and rightfully try to get rid of because of our rich history and valiant efforts to remain sovereign in the worst geopolitical position possible. Europe refuses to pay the respect poland deserves, the same way Andrzej refuses to pay the repsect Moorcock deserves. Kind of ironic
ELRIC SCRIPT by Glen Mazzara (Walking Dead) still there, Moorcock likes NEW REPUBLIC, the producers, who are serious Elric/f&sf fans. They ran up against the Witcher wall for TV but as far as I know MM, Mazzarra and New Republic are planning a movie rather than a TV series. HAWKMOON is still in early production with the BBC.
I disagree that the 'symbol of a nation' is the Witcher series at all for Poland. If anything, it's the video game series over the book series. You might mistake that as being one in the same but they're quite different. CDPR created a series that is a work of art in it's own right. So regardless of the plagiarism of the licensee, CDPR's creation still deserves to be viewed in the light that it is. The Witcher book series is nice fantasy series but not amazing in itself and to be honest Elric isn't either, although it is better than the Witcher and since it was plagiarized from is pretty much automatically better. The Witcher series was just lucky enough to have been read by a kid who ended up creating an amazing video game studio.
I will point out that Howard's conan at times touched on Order vs Chaos but in a different sense of the Civlized order of the cities and kingdoms being corrupt, while Conan's barbaric but virtuous chaos was the solution to disrupt it
When I was 23 (37 now), a friend of mine ranted and raved about the Elric Saga. I went on Amazon and found the whole series in really expensive hardcover collected volumes (3 or 4 of them, cant remember). I bought them, read the first one. When my buddy asked what I thought, I said "sorry man, I think I read this 10 years too late." At the time I felt that these books would have been more enjoyable to me in my early teens. I stumbled across this channel today, and after this video, I have to say, I think I was wrong. Maybe I read that first book 10 years too early. I think I'll give them another try. I actually still have those expensive volumes somewhere in storage. I'm gonna dig them out. You earned this sub today. Side note, I've never played/read/watched any of the Witcher.
One problem is the order you read them in. The earlier stories tend to be in those big editions which begin with Elric of Melnibone and then the early adventures so the writing quality is all over the place. Check the dates of publication. Then again they might not be to your taste and you should sell those books at a profit to a lucky fan and you'll all be happy! :)
And are decadent when compared to the standards of the Westerosi, with certain inherent traits that tend to make them seem different to regular humans. Though, GRRM likes reinforce that they aren't as different as those within the story believe.
@@therealwinston3634 I’m doing that right now. I just finished The Time of Contempt and now I’m switching over to a couple Elric graphic novels before continuing with Baptism of Fire.
Man, I got to admit I got impressed when I heard Razorfist go off on all the other White Wolf properties. He really knows his stuff! 😲 By the end of this video, he really made me agree with him on the whole plagiarism case. It amazes me of the unfairness of it all, as well as the hypocrisy of the Witcher writer to claim CDPR stole his work when he stole anothers. 😆
@@hopelessromanticpify He starts off taking what are basically prescribed drugs so he can stay alive, then switches to Stormbringer which does the job better and frees him up significantly, except later he basically becomes Stormbringer's slave and it ruins his friendships and relationships. When he tries to throw Stormbringer away it just comes back (iirc), and it eventually kills him. Also the character that inspired him (Zenith) was just straight up addicted to opium. I'm not saying it's the only thematic thing going on with Stormbringer but it's definitely part of it
With the Cancellation of the series, something the character deserves- Moorcock knew idiots like IGN, CBR the rest would accuse Elric of plagiarizing from the Witcher. We cry for Tanelorn
Stalinfalcon Can’t help but agree. Look at the shit that happened with the Witcher Netflix series, with the creative team being TDS-addled morons and their blackwashing of several white characters in the name of “diversity.” Elric would be bastardized.
As someone who thoroughly enjoyed all three Witcher games and the Netflix show, I'm absolutely baffled at how to this day Sapkowski still refuses to admit he flat out plagiarized Moorcock. Especially when pretty much every other fantasy and sci-fi author readily admits whenever they either draw inspiration from or flat-out copy someone else's concepts.
Saprowski is a dickhead, but since the games are good... Don't really care. You can only be so original, eventually every possible idea will have been explored and everyone is just gonna be copying everyone, its not a bad thing, you just have to be honest about where you took those ideas from, which Sapkowski didnt.
@@voxlknight2155 yeah couldn't of said it better, I'm sure I read somewhere he was happy with the show cos it was closer to his books makes, me wonder if he's even read his own stuff cos he's definitely not watched the show by that statement lol he got shitty about the games because he sold under priced not realising how much the games would make then sued cdprojek red. The dickhead also said you can't tell a proper story with games like OK sure,even though some the stories in the games are better than his books
SlyASpiE I think it was the metro 2033 who petty much told him to shut up. The metro author was open about loving the games because after some people played the games they brought the books. I personally did the same played the game which introduced me to the world and bought the books.
A pretty clear, concise and comprehensive overview of the subject, and I do have to agree that Sapkowski's refusal to admit even inspiration from Moorcock compounds the issue from what is a simple case of blase inspiration and lifting for a novel barely anyone in his country had read to something that's a bit more bitter. Even GW at least can't officially hide behind any such claims, given that they not only put out a significant amount of miniatures directly licensed from Moorcock's works in the 80s, as well as publishing the third edition of the Elric RPG Stormbringer (said miniatures leading directly to the creation of much of the Warhammer Elf aesthetic as many were later recycled into more general ranges once they stopped publishing licensed work) but that every single writer from the period is perfectly open about how they just basically wanted to take the cool stuff they read and slap it on a gaming table in lead. One point of contention, and ironically it's for a point you raised in CDPR's defence, and no doubt has been listed by many others, is that Cyberpunk 2077 is not an original IP, and that it was licensed from R Talsorian Games own Cyberpunk RPG (most notably 2020) which in turn, Mike Pondsmith is quite clear about being heavily influenced by works like Hardware and other authors while he and his team was writing it (ironically he hadn't even read Neuromancer by the time the first edition was about done, being far more into Walters' works and other authors whom he was familar with personally, though says that upon reading it he loved it and later incorporated the classic Sprawl triology elements into the setting, etc).
Yeah, that example was really a reach on Razorfist's part. CD Projekt have flat out said that Pan Twardowski was the inspiration for Master Mirror aka Gaunter O'Dimm, and the whole Hearts of Stone DLC. Trying to suggest that Master Mirror is a rip off of a sword that steals souls from the Elric books is a bit ridiculous.
it's because he's got blinders. he hates the witcher too much he starts to take anything from it that he could make a ridiculous claim on. blind hatred
The revelation of fraud has shook my very foundation on this mortal coil. But the audiobooks of Elric that this episode showed me exist has changed my life. Masterpieces.
"Good artists copy, great artists steal". Oh, also the whole idea of chaos vs order in no way was pioneered in 20th century. It was pioneered by Empedocles in 5th century BC. I am saying that because when I was younger and tried to write fantasy myself, it's Empedocles' concept that I based it on, with chaos equating love and order equating hatred, both being death when in their pure form.
Some of these feel like a bit of a stretch but you do make some good points. Sapkowski is a stubborn ass who won't give credit where it's due. Still.. I enjoyed the books and the games quite a lot. Keep up the good work man. Love your work.
58:57 - _"...and I want to see what they can do with their own property, not one licensed from someone else."_ Then Cyberpunk isn't the game you're looking for. The original Cyberpunk RPG is credited to Mike Pondsmith as designer, and first published in 1988.
Cyberpunk will be considered canon though , as mike is closely working with CDPR. They are really paying their respects to the man and try to make his vision come true just as much as theirs. Witcher 3 was also basically a work of CDPR as the story wasnt canon . The game was alsor renowned for its great writing down to the sidequests which had more love put into them than most games main narrative nowadays.
@Thrusty McPants He's not criticizing them for using someone else's IP, just remarking about the statement in the video that they will finally be working with their own property, which they will not be. Rageaholic made the mistake, not CD Projekt Red.
I enjoyed both WItcher and Elrik in the past (maybe it's time for a refresh...). I am surprised about so many similarities, it was definitely an inspiration at least on some of the mentioned point, some others like soul sucking is a bit of straw man, but it is same with Star Wars vs Dune. Sapkowski not agreeing inspiration allegiations? Well... he always was a bit of a dick, full of his own "genius" to be honest.
Yeah the sword sucking and sword points were a heavy reach for sure. No heavy story element about an artifact that steals souls. And saying they both use single swords is kinda useless. The Captain America shield point makes way more sense since it's not a common weapon.
Even a nice chunk of the other points are grasping at straws/fighting strawmen or idiots that dont understand that the "grime and gritty" parts of fantasy at the time all copied Conan. Something both parties admit.
@Timothy Dexter Issue is, its the same for a lot of Moorcocks work as he churned out novels faster than germans did stugs, compilations and much later work under heavy editing sometimes being exceptions (he himself admits bad writer, good ideas and sources). Its also why CDPR fixing some damn glaring left plotholes and loose threads is good/a rare vidya case of improving upon source material in in universe functional ways instead of retconning it.
A link to the Witcher Plagiarism video by The Necrolibriatas I referenced at the beginning:
ua-cam.com/video/_UOzgxUcFzE/v-deo.html
I liked witcher 3 it was one of my first RPGs alongside skyrim and fallout 4 and without a doubt I can say kcd is my favorite.
@@tonyiommisfingers3457 try playing rpg's from 15-25 years ago and you'll see the decline in rpg element but rise in resolution
@@FuzzyChubbyPurpleUnicorn All he has to do is play Daggerfall and compare it with even Morrowind, the Elder Scrolls is a good series with great games, but there's no denying it's more of an action series with RPG elements now than an RPG. It's why I'm really looking forward to the Wayward Realms by OnceLost Games.
Thanks for the plug my dude.
Wow that ratio.
Reminds me of John Carter of Mars.
It's been ripped off so many times by so many people that when the film came out it was accused of being a sad Star Wars rip off, even though it pre-dated Star Wars by 70 years.
I loved JC, hated SW.
Probably bc the film was fairly shit too.
Disney should have been truer to the original source material where no one wore any clothes.
@@arkadyt7051 Better box office returns!
100%
Games Workshop: We have copied everyone to create our fantasy and sci-fi universes.
Also Games Workshop: Allo allo does your story feature marines in space? See you in court.
I have no qualms whatsoever about pirating GW material. I'm just stealing it back.
Thieves hate it when you steal from them.
Yeah games Workshop is going down a dark path that I do not want to follow.
It’s breaking my heart
That's why now-a-days we got AoS, Orruks, Aelves, Ogors, Duardin... and Aeldar, Primaris Marines, etc. after they got their arses handed over in court a few years ago.
@@JagdWehrwolf yep, sad how they sued Chapterhouse for multiple copyright breaches and then lost about 70% of their claims...
I feel Neuromancer is in the same boat, sadly. So many movies, shows and anime have borrowed from it, that if the movie adaptation ever gets off the ground, it will be labeled a ripoff.
Hitting the nail dead on the head as always, my man.
It sucks, cause I really enjoyed that book.
Atleast Shadowrun admits to borrowing from William Gibson, who in turn said he wouldn't sue them over it.
Where's the updates, I need daggerfall 2 right now. Get Julien on the phone!
Neuromancer is glorious... so sad it may never get adequately adapted
The sad thing about the state of elric is that if a movie or series is even green lit by the time it releases it will be labeled a ripoff by the critics and general audience. I fear it will face the same fate as John Carter. Disney's live action version of John Carter was very faithful to the book it was based on but unfortunately by the time it had came out. Alot of the tropes John Carter invented were played out by other sci-fi series and tv shows.
Ah damn. Good point.
While I agree that the Witcher is soft plagiarism, Elric had been out a lot longer than Witcher, Moorcock's faults to secure a TV show or video game and seep into the mainstream are entirely his own.
It has taken so long that even if it does go to the screen, it’ll be so woke that all the fun parts will be deleted for being “problematic” and will bomb for being yet another woke disaster.
Implying Elric wouldnt be cast as a *PERSON OF DARK COMPLEXION, THANK YOU UA-cam*
@@fador1337 this shows your complete lack of knowledge there was a elric tv show that has been floating around Hollywood since 2007 but no network/studio would pick it up do to the odd nature of Elric even by fantasy terms. That was the same year as the first Witcher videogame adaptation.
On a good note, the Elric stories have been republished,and even have audiobook editions.
Razor missed one "coincidence" in his epic rant.
Geralt and Elric's mothers are both named Martha!
That's it. I'm writing Witcher v Elric: Dawn of Justice!
Case closed.
@@TheBayzent indeed case closed
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?
It's his mother's name
"Oh, Razor uploaded the Witcher plagarism video. This should be a quick but informative wa-"
*1:02:58** runtime*
"Oh...oh, boy here we go".
That runtime is nothing compared to YourMovieSucks’s defense of The Lion King and the false claims of plagiarizing Kimba the White Lion. Now that was a rabbit hole.
@@ChunkSchuldinga that video was super good tho lol I used to think lion king was plagiarism but it convinced me otherwise.
And he barely stops to take in a breath.
when you go into such "plagiarisms" as similar stock-middlages-fighter-clothing, one hour is surprisingly short. I almost expected this "plagiarism" delusion to also cover both characters having hands and feet and so on.
Here comes the fanboys
I think this is one situation plagiarism has helped. If Elrich was made into a show/movie today it would be shit. Instead you have the Witcher falling on the sword instead.
a blessing in disguise indeed
😅
I'm Polish. Googling your address right now, I want all your light bulbs
I don't get the light bulb joke
Me neither wish I did
Maybe a reference to “how many Polish guys does it take to screw in a lightbulb
@@jeenkzk5919 Or a reference to their change in energy policy?
I'm also (sadly) Polish living in this sewage for the past 30+ years and I can tell you @Jeenkz K
that it would take many of our "fine" citizens for that task to even figure out which way it screws in. As for #@Dragonking1984 said... no... we were coal based... and will be till the last coal nugget gets extracted - probably will dig to the Earth core if that's what it takes. The most eco friendly polish people get is when they sunbathe instead of going to tanning saloon but that's probably more to do with the fact that sunbathing is free. We are generally on average stupid, uneducated, racist and so unfriendly, nationalist and so intolerant it's borderline criminal. We live by our gripes to everyone for the past and will never get out of that loop since all of this is still shoved down the throats of young people each and every day. Our government is corrupt and our legal system is non-existent and/or serving only politicians. I sometimes think that Sapkowski' world of 1245 was more civil than our own here in 2020....
While I think Elric and Geralt are two completely different people, there way to many examples of Sapkowski just being so damn arrogant and stealing to boot. Then you got the Elric writer over here being so humble its wholesome.
Suing someone over some similarities in the books isn't very humble.
@@krzysztofwozny9742 You are kidding right? So if someone steals your hardwork, then you can't be humble if you call it out. Suing is justified if they plagiarize your work to this extent. stop being so stupid.
@@erikswallow858 You don't know what plagiarism is.
@@krzysztofwozny9742 You seem to be the only one who doesn't understand a thing he is talking about.
@@erikswallow858 No you. Tropes, archetypes are older then Moorcuck dated as long as myth and legends (e. conjuntion of spheres is if i am correct from celtic mythology).
Chaos is the source of magic and is signified by an eight pointed star?
Wow, Games Workshop wasn’t even trying to hide what they were cribbing from were they?
how about the mystical dying race of pointy-eared immortals called the Eldar? Or the millennia-old stellar empire where space travel is dependent upon people called navigators, AI is illegal and there are highly trained military regiments who specialize in melee combat and hail from hostile death worlds? Or space marines who wear power armor and fight giant alien bugs?
Games Workshop's model is "if we plagiarize everything, then we've plagiarized nothing."
To be fair to Games Workshop, they actually didn't try to hide it. They credit Moorcock in one of their books.
There's no bigger creator for fantasy and sci-fi. All our stories really for games, D&D, and 40k have all been Moorcock. It's all been him. I can see every writer took from him. He's got a bunch of Eternal champion series. Not just Elric. He created all our popular game stories. Now we know where blizzard got their stories.
@@JamieZero7
Dude.
Tolkien.
@@Nugnugnug Sure Tolkien was an influence on Moorcock. True that games do use dwarf, elf, and human. But that's as deep as it goes, they don't even act like the Tolkien races do. If you read or heard the audiobook Lord of the rings it's very different from any game. And it's a very different style. But all that dark evil fantasy that you see that's a bit more grim dark as 40k that's Moorcocks. That's what our games are based on. I've lost count it's been Choas described as an evil force corrupting stuff in games, old gods you go to fight at the end, with different planes of existence, Moving between these planes. Man is creating gods rather than gods creating man. Demons summing monsters due to magic or psychic energies. Lord of the rings feels unique even after all this time. Moorcock feels like people just up and took it.
Your fave book is plagiarized
Witcher fans: Noooooooooo!!!
Eragon fans: we know.
SqueakyPickles
It’s a common complaint that it’s basically Star Wars but with dragons.
It isn’t sci-fi it’s pure fantasy with dragon riders and magic. But still the story from beginning to end is a blatant copy.
I still love it though. Star Wars+lord of the rings = maximum epic fantasy.
Well. Time to read the books it, well, stole from.
Will I still love the Witcher? Yes. I will. Because it played a large role in my own fantasy world building.
However, you can still love something and critique the ever loving fuck out of it.
@@br1mst0ne54 I love it too, all the way through including the ending which a lot of people hate. For me it's mostly nostalgia, I remember reading them on the playground at school.
Eragon is Star Wars with dragons and magic with same monk lore
@@br1mst0ne54 I mean... star wars is just the hero's journey in space... and the hero's journey is everywhere.
I'll be damned. The fabled plagiarism video actually existed.
It took 12 years to make!
I remember the PC game "Elric" back in the late 1990s. Elric was a 3/4 overhead action RPG in the vein of Planescape Torment or Baldur's Gate. I saw the reviews of Elric in gaming magazines in 1998, but I was more of a Sega Genesis and PS1 guy back then.
I broke out laughing, the madman finally did it!
It’s the power rangers rant fulfilled
To be fair to CD Projekt, when the plagiarism is this extensive, it's entirely possible to accidentally plagiarize something else when trying to expand upon the source material.
I respect Moorcock for being more concerned with making his art than with jealously protecting his creations and making money. That's what I consider the mark of a true artist, and you don't see it very often these days.
Well said.
Of course a Ferengi would say that about an unselfish artist. Now which Rule of Acquisition is it that covers plagiarizing Moorcock without Games Workshop sending a hit murder squad to your bedroom.
Probably he didn't thought it was that original since he himself (if I remember correctly) admitted he made Elric just as a reverse Conan / Aragorn to take a jab at them because he didn't liked those characters. And maybe some weird property leftist take of his too.
I’m learning about moorcock and Elric for the 1st time now. Wonder how different things would have been ... bill waterson also upheld such a standard 💜
@James Gastovski He would get lynched by Polish fans if he tried that.
I think that my major problem with all of this is that The Witcher author STILL to this day refuses to accept the similarities. That would be at least some grade of redemption, but he's too stupid and cocky for that.
He knows. He also knows that if he cops to it he will never live it down so he embraces the lie.
@Ring-a-ding-ding baby Look at how 40k rips off sooo much from other sci-fi works and they don't try to hide it.
Those are the actions of a true plagiarist
@Ring-a-ding-ding baby There is a difference between what Lucas did and Sapkowski did. Almost all "new" ideas are just remixed old ones put into a blender and then put to paper. Lucas is a good example of this. He took the ideas of Dune and added some Buddhist hippy crud and other Asian influences to flesh it out. Sapkowski did almost nothing to distinguish himself from his predecessor other than add in some French Catholic influences a la the Church and Christian version of King Arthur.
That’s it. If he admit it and come to some agreement with Moorecock, I wouldn’t care.
I've never realized how much it seems like Moorcock was inspired by Lovecraft...Elric seems to carry a lot of the same themes but with a more heroic bent where you can strive against Chaos...
Likely a mixture of direct influence by Lovecraft, and indirect lovecraftian influence through the Conan stories, the author of which was a contemporary and friend of Lovecraft.
'can I copy your homework?'
'yeah just change it up a bit so it doesn't look obvious you copied'
'ok'
Someone has to turn in a report, so they look up the relevant Wikipedia article and hit "print."
... and the rest is history!
Can you point me the similarities between garelt and edgy guy. The only similarities those two characters have is the title of white wolf and the fact they both have white hair which they both have for completely different reasons
@@mariobadia4553 The similarities were shown and explained in the video.
@@mariobadia4553 i imagine you might be able to find a video explaining the similarities somewhere on youtube if you look
I hope someone mirrors this. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets flagged for some dumb reason.
It's mirrored on Bitchute
WHITE wolf is racist! Ban the video!
These white people are so white their hair is white! REEEE!!!
VERY GOOD they canceled the Elric show, so they cant ruin the genre. pls hollywoood never lay hands on the eternal champion.
Yeah spare it from the eye of sauron
No kidding. After Rangs of Woke, would you REALLY want an Amazon-produced Elric series at this juncture?
Eternal champions the SEGA game?
Tbh, Elric is more Badass in my eyes, since his conception was meant to be the opposite of Conan the barbarian while still adhering to some of the typical fantasy elements
He kills his lover and cannot allow himself to truly love again, he is weak, he is ALREADY Emperor of the most powerful kingdom EVER in the Earth's history but wishes NOT to be, a demon/chaos servant, destined to fate, he is the LAST Emperor of his Glorious decadent kingdom whom already has conquered not slain but conquered and domesticated all manner of demons and dragons, He already has the most powerful... i theres just so much in contrast to conan purposeful but its insane!!!
Tolkien also used the Kullervo saga in the Silmarillion, but Tolkien points out every reference from mythology that he used, and also doesn't just claim to use the mythology of his own country exclusively.
Tolkien was pretty upfront with many of his influences. I mean, his style of writing itself is a reference to the prose of Anglo Saxon myths, many of which he personally translated.
Which makes Mr. Douchebag even more moronic in my opinion. The fact that Tolkien's influences are widely known and don't pose a problem is because he told people outright what they were, so if he could connect his last two braincells he would realise that admitting to it would make the controversy ...... go away. But I am sure that at this point he has convinced himself that he didn't take influence
The use of mythological references though is not necessarily plagiarism or at least not actionable plagiarism. They tend to be used though in such a way that they become their own unique entities within the author who wrote them. They may have different personalities or aspects and are just there to add flavor without making up a whole new god.
Ripping someone else's entire work and paraphrasing it into your own is plagiarism that is actionable.
Tolkien also wrote a translation of Kullervo, as well as Beowulf and others.
I mean, Gandalf is straight up the name of a Norse Dwarf, as well as Fili, Kili and Thorin
Holy smokes, only took 3+ years since this video was promised in the Elric of Melnibone Top Five Recommendations to finally get it. I am excited to see this.
I was introduced to the Witcher first, so I cant help but be a little biased, even when I learn that its author plagiarized. I still enjoy the Witcher, but I think most of us can agree that sapkowski is a greedy little goblin.
Agreed. I’m a Witcher fan and its high time that Sapkowski gave up the ghost.
Same thing goes for GRRM and Game of Thrones. I enjoy the story, but I disagree with its author on a great deal of things. That, and his bashing of Tolkien's work and his lack of punctuality when it comes to finishing the last two books of his mainline series is annoying as hell.
The funny thing is that the Witcher games were more popular than either the novels or the TV show ever were. Sapkowski doesn't want to admit that a bunch of game devs made his baby into something far better than he could make.
@@HolyknightVader999 a baby that was stolen and raised in the frozen hell that is poland
@@rimgar7013 True enough.........
I prefer CDPR's witcher series. The author is an ass. Love love love the games though.
I'm 50. I grew up with Elric already in the getting long in the tooth stage of things. I read the books and liked them, but thought of Elric as older fantasy like Conan (much older) and Thieve's World. So when I first encountered The Witcher my very first reaction was, so um that's Elric.
When Razorfist publishes an hour long video you know you’re going to be in for a good time.
I hope creators publish longer videos because a lot of great creators have been banned by JhewTube.
Indeed. I cannot agree more.
Starting with rising force also
Lol 1 hour screed kvetching about copyright law and super heroes. This is current year in a nut shell.
He has cute fan theory but he is mixing inspiration with copying. And a lot of what he points out are old ideas that were used long before the Elric books.
As a Cirith Ungol listening D&D playing nerd teen in the 1980's Elric was the absolute favorite fictional character of myself and all of my friends. That being said I was a bit relieved that the Elric series was cancelled. The Witcher series on Netflix is mediocre at best, If Elric was done like that, damn that would just break my heart.
But on the other hand, it may have opened up the Elric books for everyone who never knew about him.
I personally found out about Elric after starting to get really into Sword & Sorcery at the same time I started listening to Cirith Ungol, but I did however know about The Witcher before that.
Not what the Witcher was about and I didn't care for it, so this video was really interesting to see the similarities.
So informing people about this might just get more interested in the Elric stories?
Amen.
Dude. Now i dont want to put words in your mouth. But i think your more into seeing a tv show made by pationate people than netflix. Because those are the people that make things you enjoy come to life. If thats the case i agree.
I think I'd rather see Elric done as a competent animated series made by someone who respects the source material. I'm sure someone out there could pull it off.
@@robwalsh9843 Right? Because if it was live action, they'd pick some well known celebrity to play Elric, like Keanno Reeves or someone totally unsuited, like Tom Cruise as Lestat, or Sean Connery as Allan Quatermain. But maybe if they picked relative unknowns like Game of Thrones mostly did, someone who was passionate about the books could pull it off as a series. I mean Game of Thrones did a reasonably good job of translating the first 3 or 4 of the Song of Fire and Ice books before it started to veer out of control. The Night King in the last season of GoT was giving me some serious Elric vibes btw...
"Not Licensed from someone else..."
Minor correction, Cyberpunk is an IP of R. Talsorian Games, brainchild of Mike Pondsmith. Still not an original work for CDPR.
@Timothy Dexter that is what I said, is it not?
Pondsmith is a creative director of the videogame itself.
I feel as though saying it's not an original work is a bit misleading. Cyberpunk itself isn't a new or original ip but Cyberpunk 2077 is original to CDPR as it's essentially created from the ground up by the original creator of the ip itself in tandem with the developers. Cyberpunk 2077 is set in a slightly different setting and time from the RPG so it's not as much an adaptation as it is a new story in the universe told by the team and Mike Pondsmith as a whole. It's a bit of splitting hairs because yes it's licensed by Mike Pondsmith but when the person who licensed and wrote the ip is helping create the game it gets a bit weird.
@@Daysleeper1990 Actually CP2020 follows directly from the original edition Cyberpunk which was set in 2013. Cyberpunk Red covers the period between them and 2077. It's a continuation.
Isn't cyberpunk a continuation of shadowrun and shadowrun the video game representation of William Gibson's "Sprawl" series?
So as far as IP goes it seems to be equivalent Author to Author to game vs Author to Game to Game as far as distance from source 3 steps away on both.
The main difference would seem to be theft on the first vs authorized use on the second.
HE IS AS PISSED AS WHEN HEARD SOMEONE SAY TOLKIEN RIPPED-OFF J.K. ROWLING.
Somebody really said that? Hilarious.
@@shoeflytoo Yes, I lost my shit! Thinking he may have been fucking with me, but he was decade younger, so you can't blame for assuming he was serious.
One point of disagreement. Doomed heroes have long been part of fantasy and myth and can't be considered to be a relatively new invention. King Arthur sows the seed of his own destruction and forfeits his life.
wasn't king arthur the original cuck in fantasy?
Especially with his closing quote being "god speed" and Jesus Christ was literally born to die for the sins of man.
@@wesjanson6979 no. Not really. Never heard of Menelaus? And I'm sure the trope goes way further back than that.
@@Masterblader158 In their own very different ways both Tolkien & MM wanted to take fantasy back to its substantial adult roots. MM didn't think JRRT went far enough.
the other thing with sapkowski that i don't like, he does not think the popularit of the witcher had anything to do with the game, he never had much faith in video games being a medium for telling stories. mean while the author of the Metro series knows that his books got more popular because of the games.
Sapkowski is just lying to himself.
That’s not really what he said. He stated that the Witcher was already very popular outside of Poland before the games which is true. Still it was largely only popular in Eastern Europe
TheRabbi98 probably in the Slavic side of Eastern Europe.
@@alexduta7469 Yea, well I mean that covers pretty much all of Eastern Europe
While that was indeed the case not too long ago that's not so anymore. After the recent success of the television adaptation Sapkowski has completely changed his tune and now appreciates the games giving their developer his blessing. He now looks forward to a Witcher 4 and I beleive even offered to advise on the story. However I still don't think he ever acknowledged the games aiding his success at all.
30+ min video on Communist Hollywood: Yes.
1 hour+ video on Witcher vs. Elric: YEEEEEES!!!
Wait til you hear he has an entire seperate channel of lengthy Shadow videos ;)
Oh, I knew about that. He's got a voice meant for radio.
*Plankton Intesifies*
Anyone remember the Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen and the soul reaver from said series
Yeah, that's so weird but I was just randomly thinking about that.
I think the creators acknowledge that Elric was a big inspiration.
Thats a series thats in desperate need of a come back.
Yes and I just finished playing through Soul Reaver 2 damn fine series I'm about to play Defiance the final game in the series for the first time ever so here's hoping the bad things I've heard are just hyperbole
@@AlexJonesGaming Bad things? Defiance is amazing. The only thing to criticize is the ending is left a tad open. But overall, it's still top notch
Stunning work razor. The effort put in really shows how much you care about Elric and Moorecock getting the recognition they deserve.
@Cure4Living I agree. Just because Star Wars got a lot of stuff from Valarian i think, doesn't mean that Star Wars itself isn't enjoyable.
@@darthkai3621 the difference there is that Star Wars ripped off Campbell more, plus Lucas was always up front about what his influences were. There's a lot of Flash Gordon too especially in the second one (the cloud city).
zimriel Precisely - it’s the same case Razor makes in favor of Moorcock as well.
As cynical as this sounds now, I am of the opinion that nothing is *truly* original anymore - inspirations are fine, it’s ridiculous to assume that anybody isn’t inspired by the stuff that came before.
Witcher is just Diet Elric, and the author should he ashamed of himself for such blatant plagiarism. And the fans who mindlessly defend Witcher don’t know what they’re defending.
To be fair in the first 5 minutes of the video when Geralt's appearence is described... he only looks corpse like under the influence of the potions.
A bottle of aged Polish vodka should do the trick. STARKA makes you STURDY... and maybe a little out of focus.
@Timothy Dexter no? Potions slow down his blood flow making him even paler. and potion also can expand his cornea as big as it gets
@@HypercopeEmia so witcher can be even pale .. wow thats fantasy ... boring .. i feel good not reading the books but playing the games only .
@@SB-zc7vy Mistake the books enhance the game experience and while they aren't a revolution in story telling, They are entertaining
I play D&D with a polish guy, so you can imagine how often I get an earful about the Witcher and how cool it is. Gonna link him this video next time he pisses me off
Nice
How did it go?
Well?
Well, did you defeat him? damn hate cliff hangers...
Never a good idea to piss off your DM but sometimes it's funny enough to be worth it.
And then there's a Slovak Series called the Warlock, which rips off both of them. A guy with an evil, soul-eating sword travels the land and slays monsters with author even admitting he meant to write a "slovak witcher".
I love The Witcher, but I have to admit, it's impossible to argue with you on this. Michael Moorecock may have taken his inspiration to create Elric of Melniboné and the world from various other sources, but at least he was open and honest about it. Given how many similarities The Witcher has, Andrzej Sapkowski could've at least done that, as there's no way it's a mere coincidence.
Don't bother with Andrjez his a salty bastard
I mean... yeah it was copied, more from Solomon Kane.
But I'm a layman, so for me what's better than Elric or Solomon Kane? MORE Elric and Solomon Kane :)))
Agreed.
We are talking about Andrzej here who was forced to begrudgingly admit that the video games were well-written after getting roasted internationally for saying that you couldn’t tell good stories in them.
Despite the fact that because the games were so well-written that they are the only reason a majority of people know about them in the first place.
It is possible because it is not true - only simmilarities (and valid points of criticizm) are those tied with the looks of protagonists and the conjuntion of spheres - that is not valid point - that term is from celtic mitology and therefor ripp off it.
Two of my most favorite characters are Mal from Firefly and Geralt of Rivia.
This was eye-opening. It makes me sad that people who blatantly cheat and steal get away and win more than not. I still love Geralt and the Witcher, but now that I have more context. Guess I should check out Elric and pay homage.
I feel the same
Imagine you've never got into Elric or The Witcher and you still find this video entertaining and insightful. I really need to find those Elric books.
I'm in the same boat. Not too interested in either but I was curious about this video and the controversy.
Oh hello, me. Fancy meeting myself here!
People fail to get the point here. Plagiarism has nothing to do with similarities. It has to do with passing off others ideas as your own original ideas without giving credit to the original.
Example. In the 30s many Shadow clones popped up in comics and pulps but almost all of them admitted to it being based on the Shadow.
I never cared for Witcher series and I am Polish. Trust me, Sapkowski fanboys are even more irritating in Kielbasa land. Witcher was released in Poland when we were just getting access to all awesome fantasy books and properties, so most people just did not know better. Heck, until the 90s we did not have proper copyright law so ripping off properties was common, one of the most popular boards games (Magiczny Miecz) was for example a shameless copy of Game Workshop Talisman.
The sad thing is that polish authors have written far more interesting fantasy and sci-fi books. Sapkowski wasn’t that popular in Poland at the time of the first game, with his newer books not selling that well. It is the game that made him relevant again. A shame they did not choose a more worthy author.
In Russia in the 90s one author wrote a sequel to Lord of the rings and after that he put Tolkien's world inside his own multiuniverse. The Hobbit is still in public domane here, becouse it was first published in 1970s.
Do you have any recommendations for good Polish sci-fi/fantasy? I'm always looking to expand my personal library, even though I'm not yet able to read languages other than English.
@Zoomer Waffen do yuz member when we waz literary geniuses ?
I member.
Did the author translate his own book into English, or did someone else do it?
@@mathphysicsnerd - Well from my experience unless a polish book gets a tie in that sells millions of copies world wide its unlikely to get a translation :P
But It wouldn’t feel right not to mention Stanislaw Lem, with The Invincible and Solaris being my favorite books of his. I can honestly put this guy with the like of Philip K Dick or Isaac Asimov as one of the main influences that shaped modern sci-fi.
Ya know, one of the guys that inspired other authors instead of ripping them off ;P
Hawkwind, Blue Oyster Cult, Diamond Head, and Blind Guardian have all written songs about Elric. In case anyone had any doubts about how metal he is.
Pink Floyd did "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun" which is inspired by "The Fireclown".
@Rocker01ndomablE Bloody hell, don't you guys know Moorcock had his own band (Deep Fix) and has been performing/recording commercially since the 60s. His latest came out Sept. 2019! LIVE FROM THE TERMINAL CAFE. He's performed on stage with several bands and was regularly in the Hawkwind lineup. He's also done session work on various fretted instruments and most of his friends are musicians.
@Rocker01ndomablE Sad.
@Rocker01ndomablE Sadder.
@Rocker01ndomablE Who do you think wrote "Sonic Attack"? Moorcock was collaborating with Hawkwind PRECISELY during their golden era. Still not sure why your cutoff point is the middle of the Calvert years yet you forget Hawklords and PXR5...., after which it did indeed turn to crap.
Agree to the fullest Razor but I would like to add one thing:
Frostmourne does not work on the same principle as Stormbringer. Frostmourne is more of a soul trap that gives The Lich King a portion of his power and upon the shattering of it all the souls where set free. The main power of the Lich King is the Helm of Domination that gives him control over the undead and glimpses into the shadowlands among other things that I forgot the lore.
And I can bet you my copy of Warcraft 3 someone on the design team of the game was a big fan of Elric.
@Cure4Living But there is another story between Warhammer and Warcraft. the way I heard was that GW retracted the licence.
Original lore: Frostmoure is a weapon forged by Nerzhul when he stole the universes most powerful artifacts using their power (along with Plate and Helm), it "radiates" cold as it saps life and instantly destroys the soul of those it slays (which is in 1 hit in almost every case). It has no will of its own, it just hungers for more death and destruction till ones own soul is lost to it. It also doesnt boost the powers of its wielder by draining souls, but merely by wielding it in the first place, nor does it have any magic that can be cast from it (or is the host/prison of a powerful demonic creature that somehow isnt a dragon but is). Its runes are (supposedly) there to bind the undeath of the whole set together to let the wielder "dominate" those slain back as undead (but are actually a reference to WHFB+LOTR by being elvish for warhammer).
And maybe (as Frostmourne shares more similarities with ravenbrands/mournblades side of powers than stormbringer, even part of the name), but the much bigger influence is making a dark twist on king arthur+the one ring.
RPG for 3.5 then made it a demonic ancient weapon instead of forged by Nerzhul during his WC2 quest, WOW then retconned it into just a soul sucking blade and not being indestructible anymore. WC3 remaster then by being released retconned it all back into its original place.
@@ANDELE3025 Aha I knew I missed something. Thank you.
Also only Ashbringer could destroy it lets say that Ashbringer is the pure opposite.
Of course now that Geralt has cameoed in _SoulCalibur VI,_ he's free to lay claim to -Stormbringer- Soul Edge…
Shame on you Raz0r: Trying to confuse me with facts, when my mind is made up already. (You did the same thing in your Michael Jackson videos.) Curse you sir!
So many hate facts!
The video about MJ is the absolute piece of dogshit, btw.
@MrKaskelen ... in the eyes of his fans, or more precisely, fanatics.
@@MetalGearyaTV i'm not even an MJ fan, hell I believed he was guilty based on ad populum until i watched razor's video. the facts speak for themselves
@MrKaskelen There is no such thing as innocence, only varying degrees of guilt.
Clicked expecting a ten minute rant and got an hour. I'll put this on later.
Careful there cowboy, you never know when he'll be marked and gulaged off of UA-cam!
@@caprikoziol4150 jokes on you I follow him on bitchute too
I known Sapkowski personally, we know he took loads of "inspirations" from multiple sources. Example: monster in a dumpster (second written Witcher short story) is from AD&D monster compendium. I know because I leased him my copy of it (he was looking for interesting monster for the story). But nothing's going to happen here, Witcher is now a huge franchise, too much money involved.
The Witcher obviously has drawn inspiration from different stories that it takes and puts an adult spin on. Uses lots of folk tales, the first two books and the games are also filled with them. I thought it was obvious that the Witcher is not an entirely original work.
@@BeachlessIsland The problem is not that he takes inspiration, is that he denies taking some of these inspirations despite it being obviously the case.
How do we know you actually 'know' him personally?
@@skyrimLEGION you don't. Possibly I could find somewhere photos from Nordcon 91 or 92 when this happened. We were drinking with E. Dembski, I was in the same SF club in Wroclaw. Even monsters name is same or similar, so quite easy to check for someone who has AD&D books.
@@sephikong8323 Thing is, he's absolutely full of himself. SF autors in Poland were always treated as inferior people by mainstream, so imagine a small city clerk who became famous internationally. Easy to get lost in your newfound fame.
"Sapkowski began as a polish translator of English novels"
CD Projekt began as a company that made polish translations of English (language) video games
Coincidence? I think not
Would be funny if he copied Warhammer.
@@asdergold1 if he gives you that list, I buy you dinner.
I agree with your main point, that Sapkowski was clearly very heavily inspired by Moorcock, and that it's pretty shitty of him that he keeps refusing to admit it. However, I have to nitpick a few individual points.
First and foremost, while, yes, the name "The White Wolf" is the second most clear example of plagiarism on display here, your explanation of the in-story origins of the name is completely false. The massacre at Blaviken may have earned Geralt the title "Butcher of Blaviken," but it has nothing to do with the title "White Wolf." As you said, the dryads came up with that name for him, and there were no dryads or elves anywhere near Blaviken at the time. Similarly, while the excerpt about Elric may have been the first time, in text, that he was called the White Wolf, the person calling him that also makes it clear that he was known by that name before that scene, so any similarity between the two scenes is irrelevant to the White Wolf argument. The argument that the name is an example of plagiarism is strong enough on its own that you don't need to grasp at obvious straws to try to make it stronger.
Similarly, I think the idea that CDProjekt was trying to help cover up the plagiarism is grasping at straws, too. Of course they didn't go into as much detail about the Conjunction of the Spheres in The Witcher 2; it was a smaller, more grounded story, in which Geralt had neither the in-story opportunity or in-game need to pad out content that allowed him so many opportunities to get involved in metaphysical debates as in the first and third games. And I don't think that making your main character more attractive as you get better at using the technology required to do so implies any more sinister motivations than "we want to sell games."
Also, comparing the armies of Nilfgaard to the armies of Chaos? What? They're just a stand-in for the Roman and/or Byzantine Empires. They're the most orderly institution in the entire series, and make every place they conquer significantly better for everyone except maybe mages, and even that's debatable. The war they caused is chaotic, simply due to the nature of war, but Nilfgaard itself? The only comparison I can think of is the fact that they wear black. I get your overall point that The Witcher has a strong theme of order vs. chaos, and that this was very likely lifted from the Elric series, either directly or by copying other series' that were, themselves, influenced by Elric, but I don't think this is a very good argument to prove that point.
Finally, while you touch on it a bit when you discuss them both being mercenaries, I think you're overlooking the fundamental difference between Elric and Geralt. Geralt is, at his core, a blue collar version of Elric. Elric may be a mercenary, but there is nothing blue collar about him. If anything, I'd say that The Witcher shares as many themes with Ghostbusters as it does with Elric, if not more. In a world where the supernatural exists, some entrepreneurial sort is going to put together some sort of exterminator agency. It's going to be dirty, unpleasant work, and people will hate them, but it will be necessary. That's the core theme of The Witcher, as a series. It may have started out with putting this exterminator character into fairytale or folklore-based situations, and branched out into seeing how this character would fare in a Moorcock style Eternal Conflict situation, but the blue collar exterminator being in those situations was always the central conceit of the story. And yes, it may have danced around those changes by giving Ciri the role Elric plays in the narrative, while Geralt gets his look and many of his character traits, but it's still a fairly significant difference, and one I feel is worth commenting on.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with your central argument, I just think you're trying to prove to much. Oh, and ending the rant with a Polish joke about screwing in lightbulbs was freaking inspired. Keep up the good work.
Edit: Oh yeah, and "doing their own thing, not in a property they licensed from someone else?" Huh? Does R. Talsorian Games mean nothing to you? Cyberpunk is totally a licensed setting. (And it's coming out in 2020, no less!)
@Timothy Dexter No, he didn't. Gwynbleidd is what the dryads called him, which is Elven for "White Wolf", in regard to his appearance. "The Butcher of Blaviken" was the only nickname he picked up for his part in the massacre at Blaviken, and it was bestowed upon him by regular folk, particularly those in Redania, not dryads who are isolationists in a forest near Cintra.
@Timothy Dexter Uh... you do know that R. Talsorian Games is the name of Michael Pondsmith's company, right? He's a creative consultant on the game, but not a CDProjekt employee. From Wikipedia: "CD Projekt's Marcin Iwiński divulged that Pondsmith's involvement in the video game development mostly focuses on the game world aspect and mechanics and his input, though constant, does not happen on a daily basis due to the distance between the parties."
So, yeah, Cyberpunk is clearly a licensed product.
I’m in your boat:
Yeah, the foundations of the Witcher series are ripped off wholesale from Elric. I had an argument with Razor in the comics where he made a citation that I, quite simply, could not reconcile and I realized he was right: The two universes’ major, worldshaking event, the Conjunction of the Spheres and the Conjunction of the Million Spheres, is simply too close a similarity for it to be sheer coincidence. Couple this with the fact that Sapkowski was working as a fantasy novel translator the same year the Elric books came to Poland(as well as him “coming up” with the first Witcher writings that same year), and I have to say that it’s high time Sapkowski gave up the ghost.
That said, the Witcher series has forged an identity of its own through subsequent transformation of the materials its based on that I disagree with Razor when he says(in other discussions) and implies in this video that the Witcher’s entire legitimacy as a franchise is gone because of this.
"A name & an appearance." Essentially what DC claimed in their legendary lawsuit towards Fawcett Comics over Superman and Captain Marvel/Shazam.
A trademark image or 'likeness' as it says in the copyright details in every comic since DC's Moorcock's Multiverse in the late 90s.
And while we're at it, tell Rockstar to come up with their own video game plots, instead of ripping off Heat and Legends of the Fall repeatedly.
And Scarface.
Come to think of it, has Rockstar ever admitted to being beyond inspired by Man on Fire in regards to Max Payne 3? Hmm...
@@innoclarke7435 If I remember correctly they did. During an interview with Game Informer back in around 2009 or 10 I believe. It was detailed in the newest issue of the magazine with Max Payne 3 being the focus of the issue. In one of the statements made by either one of the developers or head honcho's of Rockstar there was a mention of influences and Man on Fire was mentioned. To be fair Its been years since I read that issue, much less anymore issues afterward so I may be misremembering things.
How'd they rip off Legends of the Fall? (Never seen the movie)
Cody Crogan RDR
Maybe I’m the only one who wants this, but I’d love to see Razor make a Popular Plagiarism on The Shadow and Batman.
I’m aware there are other documentaries that cover this, but I love the way Razor explains the history of topics like this.
I think they’ve admitted to it whereas sapkowski denies he does it
@@leblanc3536 Ah, OK. I was not made entirely aware. I think I heard that before and forgot it.
Any documentaries on that subject? I’d love to learn more, but I’m not sure what to look up.
@@ThunderClapClide he admitted to it in Jim Steranko's History of Comics, Volume 2. Hell, they actually hired Shadow writer, Walter B. Gibson, to write detective comics stories for Batman
@@leblanc3536 The balls to do that, lol.
Thank you for the reference.
@@ThunderClapClide Yeah, batman is openly inspired by the shadow, and has been many times stated as starting from the concept of "what if the shadow was in the world of superman".
"The enternal enemy of the internet, Context"
INDEED
ABSOLUTELY!
EXACTLY
A lot of this sounds familiar, used in works like The Dark Tower and The Wheel of Time.
Common fantasy tropes.
Authors should admit to their inspirations though. The Dark Tower series was heavily inspired by LOTR. King admits this.
I have the first book in the Wheel of Time series, but have not read it and don't know it's inspirations.
TheirLoveCan'tCutOurKnife !!! Wheel of Time is steeped in common fantasy tropes, I almost put it down because of it, but it’s definitely more an ensemble character story with the fantasy stuff being dressing. If you have the time, I highly recommend the series
@@theirlovecantcutourknife3253 The first book is just worse Lord of the Rings, but Robert Jordan has flat out said that he just considers it his take on Fellowship of the Ring. The other books are immediately more original and interesting, and until book 7 or so, are on a steady incline of quality, though they do still have many familiar tropes. About the only thing which feels like uncredited theft is some stuff that feels WAAAAY too similar to Dune. I recommend them if you have the time, and a tolerance for petty drama and repetitive prose. Great character work, and Rand is possibly the greatest fantasy protagonist of all time.
Templar Knight I actually didn’t feel that way about Sanderson picking up the books. I felt that A Memory of Light was an excellent finale to the series, though I always wondered how much Jordan left in his notes and how much Sanderson came up with.
@@theirlovecantcutourknife3253 The Wheel of Time works many of old myth and legend into its world as a form of inspiration but also as a form of world building.
Without getting into spoilers; The Wheel of Time takes place on Earth, yes our Earth, during a 17th century period of time minus the guns. The general premise of the world is that time is largely circular, a pattern woven on the Wheel of Time. There are different ages on this pattern and all mythology in our own world are reinterpretations of events from other ages. For example King Arthur is from Emperor Hawking after the age of Legends. The myth of Odin is meant to be based directly on one of the main protagonists in the Wheel of Time.
The story takes place after the Age of Legends, and our own world is currently at the beginnings of the Age of Legends.
People in here have pointed out issues they had with the francise but I wouldn't take their positions as law. Different people see things about the series very differently . For example I wasn't even aware that people hated the so called slog books before I went online and joined the forums. I found those books to be some of the best parts of the franchise. The series is read better as one large story rather than a series as there are no time jumps.
As to the first book being a worse fellowship of the ring; Robert Jordan was not able to get the book published without leaning heavily into the popularity of the book. The publisher's explicitly asked him to write the first book that way to see if it would gain a following, after which he was free to do what he wished.
As to it being a worse version, the intention was for it to be a more grounded and realistic version of the fellowship, not to be better than it.
Elric OF Melnibone
Geralt OF Rivia.
Even their middle names are the same!
@Timothy Dexter Yeah I know. It was a joke. I'm a huge fan of Malus Darkblade, Elric and Geralt.
@@Poisonedblade Is Malus worth getting into? I like Thefthammer, but I'm a picky bitch.
@@mycaleb8 Malus is an evil torturer who cuts people's faces off for fun. But he gets caught up in an adventure to save the world. If you can root for a bad guy, then you will really enjoy the story. Lots of twists and backstabs, epic fights, cool monsters... What sets the Malus stories apart from the others is that everyone is evil, so he can't trust anyone.
@@Poisonedblade Surely you mean Malus OF Darkblade.
@@whssy You know, in Total War: Warhammer 2, he is sometimes called Malus OF Hag Graef.
At some point, we'll find out that all of their mom's names were Martha.
One of those weirdo Eastern European witcher fanboys here. Now this is more like it. This is what should have been in your video from 2013 which in comparison sounded just lazy and petty as if it was the games that did this. I'm of the opinion that both books and games can be shat upon but only by those who played or read them (or at least tried to). I don't know about earlier period but ever since I was following witcher (not that long actually, circa 7 years) it was known at least among forum dwellers that went deep into these books and sideworks that Elric was used as a prototype for Geralt. Most mainstream readers never go into these sideworks (so yeah you should watch your lightbulbs) but it's as close as you'll get to finding admission of influences for the witcher from Sapkowski himself .
And really you should also know how these works originally came to be. I mean when Sapkowski wrote that first short story he didn't even think he'd have entire series of books or that he would become "Polish national treasure". It was basically just a fan fiction silly story written for contest and then it went it's own way from there. I think he kinda wanted to make a satire of Elric and similar brooding characters and thus made him into glorified pest-control. It was done precisely because Elric was the newest stuff translated. But these references went completely over the heads of general audience who were not as nerdy as Sapkowski so they asumed it was completely original work and it went from there. Better word for it is a knock-off rather than plagiarism. Over the time he morphed bunch of the stuff that he initially ripped off completely but even so entire nature of the witcher world is a sort of parody or a twist to more famous fantasy worlds, farytales and real life.
There was nothing secret about it, it is the main theme. And he never hid anything just wasn't shouting it out loud. For example in his fantasy compendium from 2002 called "A manuscript found in a dragon's cave" which is about the closest thing to him saying "here's a list of fantasy creatures from worlds that influenced me" he explicitly mentions Moorcock in the introductory part and at one more place. I mean guy doesn't have to write post scriptum and love letter to Moorcock, Tolkien and DnD creators on the backside of every book for you to know they influenced him. He doesn't do many interviews especially not in English. In those he does he adopts sarcastic over the top trollish persona where you never know what he actually thinks and since most interviewers are Polish they are sycophantic towards him so they never ask him these questions.
Your conclussion would've made more sense if he ever outright denied being inspired by Moorcock when asked. I mean just look at GRRM, by this criteria he ripped off Memory Sorrow and Thorn and never even mentions it among his influences yet no one made a video calling him out (you might be the chosen one for it). Nevertheless I guess just to keep things neat and clear Sapkowski should say at some point "oh btw I liked Moorcock, but I thought Elric was a bit stuck up so I changed him into Geralt"
Thanks for all that info puts all The Meat i need to What i suspected...
I think it's more of a response to the Witcher fans that adamantly refuse to believe that The Witcher took heavily from Elric
Thanks for the additional info and context! Cultural context is often difficult to interpret, so trying to look into Sapkowski's personality from an outside perspective probably added to the negative perception of him. Even before this video I have to admit I had a rather negative view of the man (not his work) due to stories I've read, but all those were from a strictly US perspective. I don't think it invalidates what is said in the video (this probably would be held up in a court of law in the US, though I disagree with the need for such action), but your perspective makes for a fine addendum.
Ако видиш ово, свака част на коментару, и свака част на информацијама, појма нисам имао о неким стварима које си рекао
@@the_mask1 Ево сад видех. Знам доста о томе, периодично се залудим. Нисам чини ми се од тад улазио на клип. А и ретко читам yt обавештења ал ето судбина: Погледах једном у ко зна колико месеци и неко на српском даде коментар ;).
Није лош Рејџ ал напоран је постао са овим. ' Тако ми слатко наишло тог дана. Више ме нервирало ликово одбијање да се информише него само мишљење које има. Запео главом у зид XD. Сад гледам да пишем краће, мада сам eтo овде све изложио.
I would like to point out that White Wolf or the Wolf Totem is a really old tradition in Slavic culture. According to the old pagan religion Dajbog (Dazbog, one of high deities) transformed into white wolf. This was often recreated by Slavic warriors by wearing wolf skin. If I am not mistaken Saxo Gramaticus wrote about it. In some Slavic traditions Slavs are descendants of wolves. Wolves play a huge role in Slavic culture in general. People were often named Vuk or Volk (depending on language/dialect, meaning wolf). Some Roman legions wore wolf skin but for a different reason and with no cultural similarity. Similar can be found later with Germanic people, where the most famous example would be Mozart - Wolfgang Amadeus, where Wolfgang means wolf's tracks, and he got the name to fear off disease and death since children died often at the time.
Similar Wolf Totem and White Wolf traditions can be found among Mongols and Vikings as well as North American natives and probably many other nations. According to all ancient beliefs involving wolves and white wolves they can be boiled down to four things: wolves have incredible stamina, are powerful animals and once in a fight they don't back down, they are cooperative and lead by an alpha. One doesn't have to dig much to find historical figures compared to or named Wolf or White Wolf in various cultures.
This being said, any use of a name White Wolf and comparison to wolf or wolves generally can not be stated as being plagiarism since it exists for centuries, even millennia. It is almost the same as with calling someone The Great, which some kings/emperors were called. Also, this does not mean the nick name White Wolf wasn't stolen from Elric, it means that the very nick name is not original in the first place.
A note: which historical record is first and which nation used it first doesn't matter, most nations developed their own religions and beliefs independent of each other, and the Slavic mythology is mentioned and described more than others for two main reasons: authors of Witcher are Polish thus Slavic, and I'm more familiar with Slavic mythology than other (not that I'm an expert or anything even close).
but muh comic books
That is a really fucking obscure argument and you should feel bad for the amount of reaching your doing.
You're embarrassing yourself mate...
Yep Slav here and white wolf or wolfs in general are important in out miths. One of our God Weles love to change themself into wolf and not ordinary one but white.
Witcher is not rooted in slavic culture
I sincerely hope White Wolf does not create anything new about Elric, they’ll likely strip out any non-PC ideas
Like fucking what? Don't just say shot like that without any particular point. Fucking NPC.
Like what? What non PC stuff is in Elric?
@Murtagh Massoud Well they always can butcher Elric IP to be watered down generic rpg as they did with WoD 3rd edition.
@@ber_ Which is why you find first edition books or don't bother. Additionally, *Vampire: the Masquerade* first edition includes _the full Sabbat information basics._
No need for an additional book to play the other half of the clans.
The most Elric like game out now, is The Witcher by R Talsorian.
Turin Turambar, an exiled prince wandering throughout a grimdark fantasy world, carrying a black blade which he uses to kill his best friend, his wife (related to him) and himself; wearing a dragon helm, and is doomed. Written by Tolkien, predating Moorcock, but published after.
Good point. This fantasy archetype is probably more common than Razorfist lets on. The uncanny similarity in the details between Geralt and Elric is what gets me.
Also the same theme is used in Japanese Folklore that predate any of these author's work. The Cursed Muramasas are one of them.
Written by Tolkien, acknowledged to be taken from Kalevala.
Taken from the Kalevala. Which Moorcock also acknowledges as an inspiration. Nice try.
@@TheRageaholic Stop with the facts!
I've only read the Elric stories; I haven't read The Witcher, played the games or seen the Netflix series so I find this very illuminating. Andrzej Sapkowski is fortunate that Michael Moorcock is such a chill guy.
You are moron sir.
I think you made a mistake at the end of the video, where you seem to say that CDPR's Cyberpunk game is original and not licensed from someone else, but it is licensed. Mike Pondsmith created the Cyberpunk tabletop rpg series, and CDPR is licensing that to create a video game adaptation.
However, I do agree wholly with your take: the difference between plagiarism and influence is citation. I still like the Witcher series, I think it carries enough originality that it can be enjoyed and differentiated. But until Sapkowski acknowledges his sources of inspiration, those unoriginal bits can be considered plagiarism.
I mean, all art is derivative, but some people (like Moorecock) have the balls to admit it.
I just hope that CP2077 will be different enough from the rest of the cyberpunk genre that already exists, like Blade Runner or Deus Ex... I can't take another couple of years trying to defend the Polish entertainment media from Razor before I eventually admit that they probably stole ideas from other people.
@@wulfricofwessex147 Every idea ever has been stolen. Nothing in the universe is original. If someone is pissed off you became rich off their idea, they are just jealous you are better than them.
@@wulfricofwessex147 Most stories in the witcher 3 were original or heavily inspired by slavic folklore , something the writers of the game are completely transparent about , so wtf is your point?
Mike Pondsmith spent alot of time in Poland to work with CDPR to make sure the games writing fits his universe and can be considered canon. He even created a continuation of cberpunk 2020 with Cyberpunk RED to bridge the story gap from 2020 to 2077( the name is not a refference to CDPR as he has stated multiple times in interviews, it was established before 2077 was conceptualized) . And mike Pondsmith is also very transparent with his influences, so do CDPR have to go out of their way and include any influences of mike , instead of just using him as a reference and therefore by proxy aknowledging the sources He has been influenced by??
Andrzej is the one not admitting influence, not CDPR . Get it right.
No. You cant commit plagiarism when over 90% of your work is unrelated, 4% shared by same source older than both and MUCH more popular than either even to this day with at best 6% actual similarities (with only one idea, that isnt even executed the same way, actually being stolen/CoS in name and core of concept copied).
@@ANDELE3025 Exactly
I am more familiar with Elric but I still know a thing or two about Geralt.
Elric isn't even an anti-hero. He is a realistic villain, he genocided his homeland neither for "order" nor for revenge.
He did it to cement the superiority of his philosophy. The "True Emperor" they craved would kill them all and Elric just proved his point.
Geralt is a realistic hero, he get cranky but in the end he generally does the right thing.
Lots of people steal from Moorcock but none have made an Elric. So I have to thank the man for letting me enjoy Geralt as well.
Bug GOD DAMN will we ever get an Elric movie FFS?
To be honest, his homelanders were cunts who deserved what happened to them. So were the Pang Tang guys. He isn't good, but I wouldn't say he is a villain either.
@Timothy Dexter He is famous mostly because of Jaskier/Dandelion.
So we have -
Elric is a Grey haired character that weilds 2 swords (occasionally), uses magic in the form of elements (earth, wind air, ether) and is a drug addict. These drugs enhance his performance. He is a mercenary pirate for hire. He is a mutant. He is called the white wolf.
Geralt is a grey haired character that weilds 2 swords and uses magic in the form of signs (I wouldn't go as far as to say elements but that isn't a defining characteristic to either so it doesn't matter. You also clearly attempt to make this look like a clear copy when you take a dialogue about djinns out of context.). He uses potions that he dislikes using to enhance himself. He is a monster hunter for hire. He is a mutant. He is called the white wolf.
There is clearly a massive amount of inspiration taken here but from here it diverges.
Elric is an elven emperor hero with a soul eating sword.
Geralt was a human that was taken at birth and (attempts to) remains politically neutral and never is given a political status.
Regardless, I can see how you would say that geralt is a clear rip off of elric.
Now for the remainder of the video centring around ideas of chaos, fate and destiny. How these ideas shape the worlds. They are very similar for each but they are all very vague concepts that are not specific, defining characteristics of elric. This can be put down as inspiration and could never be taken as plagiarism. You are taking very VERY broad ideas within the franchise and trying to say that since they share these broad themes, it is taking intellectual property. They have the same themes because they are common in that genre and Moorcock does not own the genre
All of the fantasy franchises that I am heavily in to have an arguement for 'ripping off' elric in this regard.
The best thing you have in this is taking the symbol of chaos. Nilfgaard being the black armies that represent chaos... not so much because nilfgaard values law and order and a ring with 8 points can not be considered the same design when it has other design features such as it being the great sun that lights their path and in other designs having 16 points for the fully detailed sun. The Salamandra symbol has a better case for plagiarism but he never did get a patent on that symbol. I'd put it down to inspiration.
So all I can see is that they share an extremely broad theme, which even if elric was the first to, doesn't amount to copyright infringement. The most specific theme being that magic comes from chaos which is a little lacklustre to claim plagiarism. Tolkien has a far better case on everyone that uses elves, orcs and dwarves. The main characters are very similar in aesthetic but not in personality and story, even if the stories share a single theme.
The witcher takes far, far more from shakespeare (which incidentally also featured fate and destiny) and the legend of king arthur in philosophy.
atleast one words of wisdom, from all this blind fanatics fanboys this youtuber
Thank you!
I also found it a little cheeky how he presents the video as a criticism of Sapkowski's plagiarism specifically and then goes on to use things that are unique to the games as evidence, such as the Salamandra's design featuring the chaos symbol.
Is it likely that Sapkowski used elements of Elric to create Geralt? Yeah, definitely. But besides from that I think that's where the similarities in both series start to get far too vague to be deemed plagiarism.
Yup. I dont care how many times this smug dickhead UA-camr tries to make it seem like a straight up rip off, its extremely obvious that Sapkowski only took elements of the story and characters and went his own way. Sure he makes a few good points here and there, but if he truly can't see the differences that make the overall stories unique, then I pity him.
All in all, if there is a plagiarism case here, then someone oughta tell the Tolkien estate that they can sue almost every single fantasy author and filmmaker ever.
@@CurryFeatures "I dont care how many times this smug dickhead UA-camr" You lose any and all arguments when that's all you've got.
Damn why is everyone plagiarizing my boy Moorcock.... First it's the Witcher stealing from Elric saga and now it's Attack on Titan stealing from The Eternal Champion. Let this man catch a break.
Although being inspired by other writers and taking elements from certain stories is something that happens a lot , sapkowski should've atleast been truthful and say that he atleast took inspiration from elric because there are too many " coincidences " here
I disagree. most of those coincidences are literally coincidences.
@@jacquestube I remember havjbg ti explain this before and it went like this.
"How many unlikely coincidences make a pattern? Three. Because if you ever flip a coin, and guess what side it is. A game of complete random chance. By the time you get tails twice you are more likely to say heads because even though the odds are still 50/50 the odds in your head are actually 12.5/87.5 Tails to Heads. Because humans add random chance together.
And that is why it only takes three, any man examining a coincidence who is objective and is clear of mind will add the odds together.
And this is what many are doing in order to defend the indefensible plagiarism of the Witcher. They are acting as though the few dozen or so of tails aren't that unlikely when looked at on their own. Which is why they argue on singular and individual points of contention. To obscure the sheer number there are. And they do have a point, these single points of contention dont have unreasonable chances of being coincidence. It's when they are all put together that it shatters their point. 2 or 3 tails is fine. But 50 is unreasonable. And that's effectively what they are doing. Masking the 50 tails by focusing on one or two chances and pointing out the reasonable unlikeliness of them and not the unreasonable unlikeliness of the coincidence as a whole."
Sapkowski has never hidden his inspiration from Western mythology and literature, and this guy for a good morning (2:08) says that "the original inspirations are in Polish myths". They are not and never have been, so the first argument is invalid. Some small part maybe.
Then he extracts the information that Geralt is an albino. Well, it is not, because he was not born that way, and white hair is the result of mutations and trials. The eyes are also not red or white skin.
He extracts a fragment about how Geralt has a face with the color and texture of a skull "well, just like Moorcock's Elric" - only that it is taken out of context, because Wiesiek is after potions then and normally he looks healthier.
Then I decided that it was a waste of my time to continue talking about this guy.
Didn't know about Elric until you discovered your channel and I love the Witcher series and slowly finding my love for Elric series too. Didn't know that it's a work of plagiarism until then, which is a shame cause its quite a good fantasy series. Although the injustice in this whole situation is that one became a symbol of a nation and one can't even get a TV series green lit because of similarities its shared with the works that it got plagiarised by. A true shame cause I personally would love tool see a Elric series with Game of Thrones level of budget.
Took the words from my mouth and echoed my sentiments
Witcher 3 is a symbol because in a way it represents the modernization of Poland. Poles being poor is a trope We desperately and rightfully try to get rid of because of our rich history and valiant efforts to remain sovereign in the worst geopolitical position possible. Europe refuses to pay the respect poland deserves, the same way Andrzej refuses to pay the repsect Moorcock deserves. Kind of ironic
ELRIC SCRIPT by Glen Mazzara (Walking Dead) still there, Moorcock likes NEW REPUBLIC, the producers, who are serious Elric/f&sf fans. They ran up against the Witcher wall for TV but as far as I know MM, Mazzarra and New Republic are planning a movie rather than a TV series. HAWKMOON is still in early production with the BBC.
I disagree that the 'symbol of a nation' is the Witcher series at all for Poland. If anything, it's the video game series over the book series. You might mistake that as being one in the same but they're quite different. CDPR created a series that is a work of art in it's own right. So regardless of the plagiarism of the licensee, CDPR's creation still deserves to be viewed in the light that it is.
The Witcher book series is nice fantasy series but not amazing in itself and to be honest Elric isn't either, although it is better than the Witcher and since it was plagiarized from is pretty much automatically better. The Witcher series was just lucky enough to have been read by a kid who ended up creating an amazing video game studio.
I will point out that Howard's conan at times touched on Order vs Chaos but in a different sense of the Civlized order of the cities and kingdoms being corrupt, while Conan's barbaric but virtuous chaos was the solution to disrupt it
When I was 23 (37 now), a friend of mine ranted and raved about the Elric Saga. I went on Amazon and found the whole series in really expensive hardcover collected volumes (3 or 4 of them, cant remember). I bought them, read the first one. When my buddy asked what I thought, I said "sorry man, I think I read this 10 years too late." At the time I felt that these books would have been more enjoyable to me in my early teens.
I stumbled across this channel today, and after this video, I have to say, I think I was wrong. Maybe I read that first book 10 years too early. I think I'll give them another try. I actually still have those expensive volumes somewhere in storage. I'm gonna dig them out.
You earned this sub today.
Side note, I've never played/read/watched any of the Witcher.
One problem is the order you read them in. The earlier stories tend to be in those big editions which begin with Elric of Melnibone and then the early adventures so the writing quality is all over the place. Check the dates of publication. Then again they might not be to your taste and you should sell those books at a profit to a lucky fan and you'll all be happy! :)
Did you?
I'm positive that George R. R. Martin based the Targaryens on the Melniboneans from Elric. Both are dragon lords who live on a doomed island.
And are decadent when compared to the standards of the Westerosi, with certain inherent traits that tend to make them seem different to regular humans. Though, GRRM likes reinforce that they aren't as different as those within the story believe.
You took the words right from my mouth.
I'm pretty sure the extra R is actually part of his legal name...
@Timothy Dexter Sure dude.
Bloodraven and bittersteel are unabashed copies of elric and conan respectively.
"That's the way with writers; they'll steal anything, file off the serial numbers, and claim it for their own."
-Robert Heinlein
Hey I wrote the witches novels.
:) according to your comment, right?
@@silent_stalker3687 dont breed
@@oz_jones says the guy who fails to combat allergies and Covid…
You know, i wanted to get into The Witcher, but now i want to read Elric.
Thank you.
you still can read both
@@therealwinston3634 I’m doing that right now. I just finished The Time of Contempt and now I’m switching over to a couple Elric graphic novels before continuing with Baptism of Fire.
Man, I got to admit I got impressed when I heard Razorfist go off on all the other White Wolf properties. He really knows his stuff! 😲 By the end of this video, he really made me agree with him on the whole plagiarism case. It amazes me of the unfairness of it all, as well as the hypocrisy of the Witcher writer to claim CDPR stole his work when he stole anothers. 😆
it's like a carjacker getting carjacked then calling the police afterwards
@@snowysilverclaw5482 🤣🤣🤣 yup!
Classic projection. Accusing someone of something you've done.
You missed one there Razor... The White Wolf is also a short lived Judge Dredd villain.
I gotta say Razor, for the longest time I wasn't really convinced of this stance of yours, but now I definitely am. Well done.
Final verdict on The Witcher: enjoyable AU fanfiction of Elric, where he was born in Poland instead of a declining murder-elf empire.
Poland is declining, but way less cool and powerful and far more stupid and treacherous than a murder-elf empire.
@@GracieKiller POLAND? The fastest growing European Economy, immune to islamic terror and leftist commie propagand?
@@yochaiwyss3843 also home of people getting rich off plagiarism
@@MrTreymeister As life should be. If you can't get rich off your own idea but someone else does. You suck and deserved it honestly.
You had me at murder-elf empire.
I always interpreted Stormbringer as a pretty poignant metaphor for substance addiction.
Wait a minute-
@@hopelessromanticpify He starts off taking what are basically prescribed drugs so he can stay alive, then switches to Stormbringer which does the job better and frees him up significantly, except later he basically becomes Stormbringer's slave and it ruins his friendships and relationships.
When he tries to throw Stormbringer away it just comes back (iirc), and it eventually kills him. Also the character that inspired him (Zenith) was just straight up addicted to opium. I'm not saying it's the only thematic thing going on with Stormbringer but it's definitely part of it
it was. Don't think that's a matter for interpretation as I recall Moorcock saying something along those lines long ago.
His whole kingdom is on hallucinogens
With the Cancellation of the series, something the character deserves- Moorcock knew idiots like IGN, CBR the rest would accuse Elric of plagiarizing from the Witcher. We cry for Tanelorn
A bit hard to plagiarize something that wasn't published before 1986. Tanelorn is Eternal.
Elric was made before the Witcher
Elric doesn't deserve a TV series like the Witcher, but that's because the Witcher TV series fucking sucks
So the wait paid off. I'll probably watch and rewatch this... a lot.
I love some of the quotes and philosophy tidbits
This is a hilarious revelation to me given how much he pissed and moaned about cdpr ripping him off
Seeing this video after the long wait, renews my faith that star citizen is coming any day now!
While I'm a big Witcher fan and find it far more interesting, I would like to see Elric get some shine too in games and a series down the line.
Yeah but it would probably end up being a rip off of Witcher at this point
Nope. Not in 2020. Elric would be ruined both in games and a series down the line.
Stalinfalcon
Can’t help but agree.
Look at the shit that happened with the Witcher Netflix series, with the creative team being TDS-addled morons and their blackwashing of several white characters in the name of “diversity.”
Elric would be bastardized.
Not 30 seconds in and there is one dislike and one like.
Fanboys, I'm assuming...that or their just bored and easily annoyed.
Not shocked lmao
And here I thought this would be the one video on the entire platform where this didn't happen.
PEASED JOSE. PEASED JOSE. PEASED JOSE.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be
58:55 OOF that aged like milk....left on the sidewalk.....in Arizona.
New AVGN and now a 1hr+ video from the Rageaholic?? This is NUTS!
As someone who thoroughly enjoyed all three Witcher games and the Netflix show, I'm absolutely baffled at how to this day Sapkowski still refuses to admit he flat out plagiarized Moorcock. Especially when pretty much every other fantasy and sci-fi author readily admits whenever they either draw inspiration from or flat-out copy someone else's concepts.
hell the guy pretty much doesnt like the games and doesnt believe thts the reason why he is relevant
Saprowski is a dickhead, but since the games are good... Don't really care. You can only be so original, eventually every possible idea will have been explored and everyone is just gonna be copying everyone, its not a bad thing, you just have to be honest about where you took those ideas from, which Sapkowski didnt.
@@voxlknight2155 yeah couldn't of said it better, I'm sure I read somewhere he was happy with the show cos it was closer to his books makes, me wonder if he's even read his own stuff cos he's definitely not watched the show by that statement lol he got shitty about the games because he sold under priced not realising how much the games would make then sued cdprojek red. The dickhead also said you can't tell a proper story with games like OK sure,even though some the stories in the games are better than his books
SlyASpiE I think it was the metro 2033 who petty much told him to shut up. The metro author was open about loving the games because after some people played the games they brought the books. I personally did the same played the game which introduced me to the world and bought the books.
Rowling refuses to admit Tolkien's influence, or the Troll movie.
A pretty clear, concise and comprehensive overview of the subject, and I do have to agree that Sapkowski's refusal to admit even inspiration from Moorcock compounds the issue from what is a simple case of blase inspiration and lifting for a novel barely anyone in his country had read to something that's a bit more bitter. Even GW at least can't officially hide behind any such claims, given that they not only put out a significant amount of miniatures directly licensed from Moorcock's works in the 80s, as well as publishing the third edition of the Elric RPG Stormbringer (said miniatures leading directly to the creation of much of the Warhammer Elf aesthetic as many were later recycled into more general ranges once they stopped publishing licensed work) but that every single writer from the period is perfectly open about how they just basically wanted to take the cool stuff they read and slap it on a gaming table in lead.
One point of contention, and ironically it's for a point you raised in CDPR's defence, and no doubt has been listed by many others, is that Cyberpunk 2077 is not an original IP, and that it was licensed from R Talsorian Games own Cyberpunk RPG (most notably 2020) which in turn, Mike Pondsmith is quite clear about being heavily influenced by works like Hardware and other authors while he and his team was writing it (ironically he hadn't even read Neuromancer by the time the first edition was about done, being far more into Walters' works and other authors whom he was familar with personally, though says that upon reading it he loved it and later incorporated the classic Sprawl triology elements into the setting, etc).
Well... Mister Mirror is literally the Devil from "Mister Twardowsky" (Pan Twardowski) story...
Yeah, that example was really a reach on Razorfist's part. CD Projekt have flat out said that Pan Twardowski was the inspiration for Master Mirror aka Gaunter O'Dimm, and the whole Hearts of Stone DLC. Trying to suggest that Master Mirror is a rip off of a sword that steals souls from the Elric books is a bit ridiculous.
@@ericsantucci6934 doubt that this guy ever heard of it, so we can give him a pass on this one
@@EliotOnline yeah but if he talks about something he should do bigger research
@@klaudiaw8518 true that
it's because he's got blinders. he hates the witcher too much he starts to take anything from it that he could make a ridiculous claim on. blind hatred
"Artists imitate and poets steal."
-Paraphrased from TS Eliot
The revelation of fraud has shook my very foundation on this mortal coil. But the audiobooks of Elric that this episode showed me exist has changed my life. Masterpieces.
Do you know where to find them? The only book I know was just released on audible
"Good artists copy, great artists steal".
Oh, also the whole idea of chaos vs order in no way was pioneered in 20th century. It was pioneered by Empedocles in 5th century BC. I am saying that because when I was younger and tried to write fantasy myself, it's Empedocles' concept that I based it on, with chaos equating love and order equating hatred, both being death when in their pure form.
GW is gonna sue somebody.
Bad artists copy badly.
@hammertapping yeah its a huge waste of time to watch it.
@@KossolaxtheForesworn
Its kinda entertaining to listen to in the background while doing something ''usefull''... grinding warthunder or the like...
Apollonian and Dionysian as well.
The cyberpunk excitement aged like milk.
Good man, RazörFist. Have been looking forward to this.
I find Elric to be much more engaging than Geralt.
Gerald is just off brand Elric, everything is just "Down tuned" so to speak
@@sethott2770 They're nothing alike
Some of these feel like a bit of a stretch but you do make some good points. Sapkowski is a stubborn ass who won't give credit where it's due.
Still.. I enjoyed the books and the games quite a lot.
Keep up the good work man. Love your work.
Weird that Moorcock met Tolkien but still referred to him as a crypto-fascist.
58:57 - _"...and I want to see what they can do with their own property, not one licensed from someone else."_
Then Cyberpunk isn't the game you're looking for. The original Cyberpunk RPG is credited to Mike Pondsmith as designer, and first published in 1988.
Cyberpunk will be considered canon though , as mike is closely working with CDPR. They are really paying their respects to the man and try to make his vision come true just as much as theirs. Witcher 3 was also basically a work of CDPR as the story wasnt canon . The game was alsor renowned for its great writing down to the sidequests which had more love put into them than most games main narrative nowadays.
@@snakeace0 That's great. 👍
It changes nothing about what I said.
I thought the same thing when he said that. "You know, Cyberpunk is a pre-existing IP as well."
@Thrusty McPants Again, that's great. 👍
It's still not their own property. It's licensed from someone else.
@Thrusty McPants He's not criticizing them for using someone else's IP, just remarking about the statement in the video that they will finally be working with their own property, which they will not be. Rageaholic made the mistake, not CD Projekt Red.
I enjoyed both WItcher and Elrik in the past (maybe it's time for a refresh...). I am surprised about so many similarities, it was definitely an inspiration at least on some of the mentioned point, some others like soul sucking is a bit of straw man, but it is same with Star Wars vs Dune. Sapkowski not agreeing inspiration allegiations? Well... he always was a bit of a dick, full of his own "genius" to be honest.
Yeah the sword sucking and sword points were a heavy reach for sure. No heavy story element about an artifact that steals souls. And saying they both use single swords is kinda useless. The Captain America shield point makes way more sense since it's not a common weapon.
@Timothy Dexter Are you trying to say that collection of stories are not books?
Even a nice chunk of the other points are grasping at straws/fighting strawmen or idiots that dont understand that the "grime and gritty" parts of fantasy at the time all copied Conan. Something both parties admit.
@Timothy Dexter Issue is, its the same for a lot of Moorcocks work as he churned out novels faster than germans did stugs, compilations and much later work under heavy editing sometimes being exceptions (he himself admits bad writer, good ideas and sources).
Its also why CDPR fixing some damn glaring left plotholes and loose threads is good/a rare vidya case of improving upon source material in in universe functional ways instead of retconning it.
This is the video equivalent of that Simpsons meme: "Stop, he's already dead"
Elric dodge a bullet by not being ruined by netflix
Blessing in disguise indeed