Reincarnation freaks me the hell out. I don’t wanna come back and have to do a life all over again. I want off the wheel. Happy holidays, Brad. Thank you so much for your channel and all the work you do. 🙏🏼🤘🏼
That's how liberation was always conceived.. off the samsararic wheel. Traditional Upanishads talk about samsara in terms of a constant cycle, through human births, births in heavens, hells and back again.. and the futility of that. Imagine doing great works and going to heaven and then it suddenly evaporates and you're back on earth (because the merit is used up)
@@MrStrocubeI once went to this nadi astrology place in india and they apparently told me my last life. They said I had been wealthy and had all kinds of temples built, pujas performed and all kinds of charitable acts... and here I am sitting in their nadi center again on earth right haha
@MrStrocube to me, the fact that there is a strong desire for liberation is the ultimate blessing though, more than heaven. In traditional advaita vedanta they do a ceremony where they renounce heaven, did you know that? Because a seeker of liberation can't have heaven as their goal.
Good chat! Regarding the 'weird stuff' you spoke of at the end--I grew up with 'ghosts' in my family (Welsh ancestry, it's cultural thing) and my great grandmother was the keeper of such family lore. I'll spare you the stories because they're not really that important, but when I started learning about Buddhism from the Soto Zen perspective I spent some time trying to reconcile the ideas I'd grown up with--particularly the question of 'well, if there's no soul or enduring essence, then what is it?' and I soon came to profit with 'Inmo' (the universal it) and the idea that everything is of course deeply interconnected. So, we, ourselves, in a way, share quite a bit in common with "ghosts", when we look at the absence of an enduring personal self--and the interconnectedness of all things suggests that a conduit could exist--somehow(?)--where we could occasionally bump into things near or far, either in time or space. So your experience with your mom or your friend are not exactly out of hand. It's just not in the way many of us were raised to believe. If there are no things out there that are truly separate, then maybe it's like 'why not?' Anyway, Merry Christmas!
Aren't transmigration and reincarnation the same thing? They both imply a soul going from one body to another. Perhaps you meant rebirth v. reincarnation, in which case Nishijima was correct to say that Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation.
Yes, I had some experiences when my mother died-2007 also. Some happened at Green Gulch where I was living and later was ordained. I always wondered why Soto Zen teachers do not address what happens after death when every other Buddhist tradition does, some in great detail. Recently my teacher introduced some aspects of doing memorial ceremonies and funerals, and an article we read includes some detailed descriptions and timelines post death as part of soto zen belief.. I was quite surprised, asked about this, and received no answer, so far. Interesting talk-thank you.
An interesting aside: About half way through, Brad talks about the present moment and how it differs from the past and future. He waves his hands behind him as if the past was behind and the future in front of him. This is also how I normally think about the past, being behind, and the future, being ahead. But I remember reading about a tribe in South America and they think of the past as in front of them and the unknown, unseen future behind them. Its as if, we move through the world moon-walking backwards into the our future and see the results before us.
Your experience with the John Lennon song mirrors alnost exactly an experience that my mother had! Not long after her husband died (she remarried later in life) she heard a song suddenly play and it was 'their song' a song of great sentimental value to both of them. It played in its entirety and stopped. My mum assumed it was coming from a particular radio.. but when she examined it she found it had no batteries. Not only Buddhists and hindus, but apparently Helenistic culture did too believed in reincarnation ( the myth of Er in the Plato's Republic) Its odd because i do have a distinct memory of being drawn to or 'choosing' my mother, I've had numerous unexplainable experiences and ive been to a nadi place in india where they had all the significant details of my past, as well as the last life in Shri Lanka apparently and i had a whole reading just on that. They also said i have no future births but anyway Yet, I'm also completely doubtless that what i am is unborn and was never incarnated to begin with.
The Thera guys who specialize in the jhanas developed practices for the so-called "powers," which tend to occur with high concentration. Once a student can move through the jhanas at will, I know that there are recollection practices that can teach you to move at will in past moments of your current life. At a certain point, I've read that many people can start getting experiences of past lives. What are these I have no clue. But the Buddhist doctrine for rebirth comes out of that and not mere intellectual speculation, which comes second to the experience of past lives. I only had such an experience while tripping on mushrooms in my early 20s. I don't know what to make out of it. It seemed real during the trip, now it is just a memory.
I also had an experience with a John Lennon song the day after my father died, before i knew he had passed, very suddenly and unexpectedly. The song Out of the Blue came on my playlist and i imagined that my father had died and it was his message to me. John Lennon was his favorite musical artist. Then less than 2 hours later i got a call from my sister and found out my father had died the day previous, my birthday incidentally.
"We might not neglect to chant even while being born." How bout that huh? The Chan school of Buddhism started as a return to the primary practice of sitting cross-legged with the spine erect leading to the four Jhanas. The Jhanas are never described as a VERB but as characteristics that happen to the subject. And Dogen was certainly an advocate of this approach. But the full lotus posture is anything but aerodynamic, so passage through the birth canal is gonna be a problem. He knew nothing of C-section surgery...so the newborn is compelled to start chanting instead. Talk about a work-around!
O'good! Another debate among Western Zen Buddhists about rebirth/reincarnation, ''past life' experiences, and ghosts(?!). I'm certain that this will settle the matter - not. Does it matter one way or the other? Will we live our lives differently? Based on Christians who believe in eternal hell for the sinful and yet continue to sin, I think not. In any case, I can't imagine how knowing or even believing in past lives would change me, or how the promise/threat of future lives would change me.
"Another debate among Western Zen Buddhists about rebirth reincarnation" Yes, its only WESTERN Zen folk who are confused about it. The rest of the Buddhist world are solidly in line with the Dharma.
@@Teller3448 Yes, Western Zen Buddhists argue and debate the matter, but I wouldn’t say that we’re confused, though we may not agree with your understanding or your understanding of Buddha’s teachings as transmitted through the suttas and sutras. And I believe (based on my very limited experience) that most non-Western Buddhists accept rebirth/reincarnation without understanding or questioning their belief or hold non-Buddhists beliefs about a personal entity. Admittedly, since a core Buddhist teaching is no-self (fundamental emptiness), it is difficult to understand rebirth/reincarnation without an entity, however subtle. But does any of this make any difference to how one lives?
@@clydegrossman "since a core Buddhist teaching is no-self (fundamental emptiness), it is difficult to understand rebirth/reincarnation" Its a NOT-self teaching...not a NO-self teaching. Buddha described all the things that are NOT the self...and that teaching has been distorted over time. Theres a good video about it from a Pali translator called... "Citta / Mind / Spirit in earliest Original Buddhism"
@@Teller3448 Excellent! Now we can debate how best to translate and communicate the profound meaning of 'annata'. And since we're in Hardcore ZEN, we can debate 'sunyata' too. (Or is that one? Or none? Or neither?)
@@clydegrossman Its only in the Abhidharma texts which emerged long after the Suttas that we see a misunderstanding between the words NOT and NO. The Anatta-Lakkhana Sutta makes it all very clear. The other big bugaboo in Buddhism is the notion that Buddha is the author of the Mahayana Sutras, which was widely believed by most of the great Zen Masters, but has now been demolished by modern scholarship. They are much later writings.
I think that, whether or not Buddhism wants to allow for the reincarnation of a "personalistic" aspect, this would be irrelevant due to the dissolution and non-reality of this aspect that we take as "I", as "identity"... because what we understand as "I", as "ourselves" is a gross construct of complete illusion of individuality, existing only for the purpose of separating ourselves from the whole in order to experience life in a differentiated way. that is, this thing, even if it were reincarnated, is a "piece" and therefore, saying that we reincarnate is irrelevant because this piece would not even be the true self. Something that, in itself, is totally devoid of personality, is something transpersonal, like the atma. So ok. Buddhism could say it in two ways: yes, we reincarnate in this 'personalistic' piece, and we would reincarnate in the transcendent transpersonal piece, but in the second case, because this thing never even really died. He is beyond this body. The ultimate question is: Do you eliminate your suffering by reincarnation? No. So why cling to it. Live life here and now. Get rid of suffering while you are still aware of it. You may live one life or a thousand... The suffering will be the same. Greater or lesser kharma... Reincarnation or no reincarnation. None of this is relevant because suffering will continue to occur as long as there is this false sense of self present in all of us. And this false sense is what will put you in an endless cycle of reincarnation. So in the end... Is it really worth believing in reincarnation or not? The tragedy will be the same.
The impersonal, or none individualized Awareness (what you are) was never incarnated, so won't be reincarnating any time soon. Its just what is now, even as perceptions are constantly shifting and alternating between various states, like waking, dream.. deep sleep.. the interim between death, various realms and so on. The idea of Incarnation/reincarnation includes hell, heaven, better or worse human births and so on. The desire to remain Incarnated, as well as to avoid hell.. attain heaven are all included. Its not a small thing. It's the stuff of the majority of religion.
@@michaelmcclure3383 Yes. It may indeed not be a small thing. But for Buddhist thought, is reincarnation really that relevant? If Buddha and other authorities avoid giving it so much importance... in addition to all the assumptions that insist on remembering the importance of the PRESENT... reincarnation does not seem to be something relevant to practice. Not something to be held to with such zeal. And I do not say this in the sense of not believing in reincarnation, but rather of not clinging to this aspect. Just as one should not cling to gods, or demons or ghosts that, regardless of their existence, will not eliminate the suffering that is the tragedy of life.
Personally, in theoretical terms, I find it an extremely interesting subject. But I am aware that this will not make me any less of a "sufferer", so to speak...
@azraeldeaguiar well, if reincarnation is irrelevant then so is the law of cause and effect (karma), because they're intimately related. I'd say for the vast majority of Buddhists and Hindus such things are front and center.. not enlightenment, not actual liberation from samsara. Real interest in liberation is for the few, as ever I know Buddhists squabble ahout the Hindu notion of the jiva.. which dualistic hindus say reincarnates, but they seem just as caught up in reincarnation and karma they just frame it differently. I come from a Vedantic pov and it seems a lot simpler in Advaita Vedanta, maybe because they address it more. Basically they say from the pov of the assumed individual there is karma, there is reincarnation, other realms and so on. But from the pov of the Self none of it is real.. nor does it pertain to our true nature. I guess for Buddhists no self is foundational.. so more intricate gymnastics are required at the exoteric level of their religion to affirm the truth of karma and reincarnation.. because who does it pertain to exactly? So you find zen masters like Dogen saying various contradictory things about reincarnation. That's not surprising because it depends who he's talking to doesn't it.
@@michaelmcclure3383 OK, you have a good point. I confess that the subject of reincarnation in Buddhism is a delicate one, because there are several branches and each one affirms and believes in something different. Buddha accepts as true that there is reincarnation, but immediately says that there is no perpetual self. Even so, he reaffirms that there is kharma. So, yes, things get confusing. But where there is predominantly a constant denial of reincarnation is in Zen, apparently. In Vajrayana Buddhism, however, it is emphatically reaffirmed. Not only reincarnation itself, but life after death. So, in the end, each sect could believe in something. It would be easier to ask "which Buddhism believes in reincarnation and which does not?" than to ask "Does Buddhism believe in reincarnation?" I think about that. In some branches of Buddhism, even the sense of the true self, as Atma, even though Buddha had initially denied it, reappears historically under another name and conceptually similar to Atma later on. Now perhaps I should admit that the relevance is not small for some sects. But in general, whether one believes in it or not, it seems that work in the here and now is very much emphasized in all of them. As much as is necessary to be done precisely to no longer be subjected to reincarnation. Even in Kabbalistic branches we see a similar thought about the "rectification of the soul", which basically consists of correcting all the sparks, reforming and crystallizing one's inner self, so as to cease any need to return to this fallen world. Anyway, I think it is a very interesting and vast subject.
Reincarnation freaks me the hell out. I don’t wanna come back and have to do a life all over again. I want off the wheel.
Happy holidays, Brad. Thank you so much for your channel and all the work you do. 🙏🏼🤘🏼
That's how liberation was always conceived.. off the samsararic wheel. Traditional Upanishads talk about samsara in terms of a constant cycle, through human births, births in heavens, hells and back again.. and the futility of that. Imagine doing great works and going to heaven and then it suddenly evaporates and you're back on earth (because the merit is used up)
@
Yeah, not a happy thought.
@@MrStrocubeI once went to this nadi astrology place in india and they apparently told me my last life. They said I had been wealthy and had all kinds of temples built, pujas performed and all kinds of charitable acts... and here I am sitting in their nadi center again on earth right haha
@MrStrocube to me, the fact that there is a strong desire for liberation is the ultimate blessing though, more than heaven.
In traditional advaita vedanta they do a ceremony where they renounce heaven, did you know that? Because a seeker of liberation can't have heaven as their goal.
@
I dunno, man. Isn’t desire what keeps us bound to the cycle of death and rebirth?
Good chat! Regarding the 'weird stuff' you spoke of at the end--I grew up with 'ghosts' in my family (Welsh ancestry, it's cultural thing) and my great grandmother was the keeper of such family lore. I'll spare you the stories because they're not really that important, but when I started learning about Buddhism from the Soto Zen perspective I spent some time trying to reconcile the ideas I'd grown up with--particularly the question of 'well, if there's no soul or enduring essence, then what is it?' and I soon came to profit with 'Inmo' (the universal it) and the idea that everything is of course deeply interconnected. So, we, ourselves, in a way, share quite a bit in common with "ghosts", when we look at the absence of an enduring personal self--and the interconnectedness of all things suggests that a conduit could exist--somehow(?)--where we could occasionally bump into things near or far, either in time or space. So your experience with your mom or your friend are not exactly out of hand. It's just not in the way many of us were raised to believe. If there are no things out there that are truly separate, then maybe it's like 'why not?' Anyway, Merry Christmas!
Some of my favorite content that you post … thanks for sharing a teaching!
Aren't transmigration and reincarnation the same thing? They both imply a soul going from one body to another. Perhaps you meant rebirth v. reincarnation, in which case Nishijima was correct to say that Buddhists don't believe in reincarnation.
Yes, I had some experiences when my mother died-2007 also. Some happened at Green Gulch where I was living and later was ordained. I always wondered why Soto Zen teachers do not address what happens after death when every other Buddhist tradition does, some in great detail. Recently my teacher introduced some aspects of doing memorial ceremonies and funerals, and an article we read includes some detailed descriptions and timelines post death as part of soto zen belief.. I was quite surprised, asked about this, and received no answer, so far. Interesting talk-thank you.
An interesting aside: About half way through, Brad talks about the present moment and how it differs from the past and future. He waves his hands behind him as if the past was behind and the future in front of him. This is also how I normally think about the past, being behind, and the future, being ahead. But I remember reading about a tribe in South America and they think of the past as in front of them and the unknown, unseen future behind them. Its as if, we move through the world moon-walking backwards into the our future and see the results before us.
Your experience with the John Lennon song mirrors alnost exactly an experience that my mother had! Not long after her husband died (she remarried later in life) she heard a song suddenly play and it was 'their song' a song of great sentimental value to both of them. It played in its entirety and stopped. My mum assumed it was coming from a particular radio.. but when she examined it she found it had no batteries.
Not only Buddhists and hindus, but apparently Helenistic culture did too believed in reincarnation ( the myth of Er in the Plato's Republic) Its odd because i do have a distinct memory of being drawn to or 'choosing' my mother, I've had numerous unexplainable experiences and ive been to a nadi place in india where they had all the significant details of my past, as well as the last life in Shri Lanka apparently and i had a whole reading just on that. They also said i have no future births but anyway Yet, I'm also completely doubtless that what i am is unborn and was never incarnated to begin with.
The Thera guys who specialize in the jhanas developed practices for the so-called "powers," which tend to occur with high concentration. Once a student can move through the jhanas at will, I know that there are recollection practices that can teach you to move at will in past moments of your current life. At a certain point, I've read that many people can start getting experiences of past lives. What are these I have no clue. But the Buddhist doctrine for rebirth comes out of that and not mere intellectual speculation, which comes second to the experience of past lives. I only had such an experience while tripping on mushrooms in my early 20s. I don't know what to make out of it. It seemed real during the trip, now it is just a memory.
I also had an experience with a John Lennon song the day after my father died, before i knew he had passed, very suddenly and unexpectedly. The song Out of the Blue came on my playlist and i imagined that my father had died and it was his message to me. John Lennon was his favorite musical artist. Then less than 2 hours later i got a call from my sister and found out my father had died the day previous, my birthday incidentally.
"We might not neglect to chant even while being born."
How bout that huh? The Chan school of Buddhism started as a return to the primary practice of sitting cross-legged with the spine erect leading to the four Jhanas. The Jhanas are never described as a VERB but as characteristics that happen to the subject.
And Dogen was certainly an advocate of this approach. But the full lotus posture is anything but aerodynamic, so passage through the birth canal is gonna be a problem. He knew nothing of C-section surgery...so the newborn is compelled to start chanting instead. Talk about a work-around!
O'good! Another debate among Western Zen Buddhists about rebirth/reincarnation, ''past life' experiences, and ghosts(?!). I'm certain that this will settle the matter - not. Does it matter one way or the other? Will we live our lives differently? Based on Christians who believe in eternal hell for the sinful and yet continue to sin, I think not. In any case, I can't imagine how knowing or even believing in past lives would change me, or how the promise/threat of future lives would change me.
"Another debate among Western Zen Buddhists about rebirth reincarnation"
Yes, its only WESTERN Zen folk who are confused about it. The rest of the Buddhist world are solidly in line with the Dharma.
@@Teller3448 Yes, Western Zen Buddhists argue and debate the matter, but I wouldn’t say that we’re confused, though we may not agree with your understanding or your understanding of Buddha’s teachings as transmitted through the suttas and sutras. And I believe (based on my very limited experience) that most non-Western Buddhists accept rebirth/reincarnation without understanding or questioning their belief or hold non-Buddhists beliefs about a personal entity. Admittedly, since a core Buddhist teaching is no-self (fundamental emptiness), it is difficult to understand rebirth/reincarnation without an entity, however subtle.
But does any of this make any difference to how one lives?
@@clydegrossman "since a core Buddhist teaching is no-self (fundamental emptiness), it is difficult to understand rebirth/reincarnation"
Its a NOT-self teaching...not a NO-self teaching. Buddha described all the things that are NOT the self...and that teaching has been distorted over time.
Theres a good video about it from a Pali translator called...
"Citta / Mind / Spirit in earliest Original Buddhism"
@@Teller3448 Excellent! Now we can debate how best to translate and communicate the profound meaning of 'annata'. And since we're in Hardcore ZEN, we can debate 'sunyata' too. (Or is that one? Or none? Or neither?)
@@clydegrossman
Its only in the Abhidharma texts which emerged long after the Suttas that we see a misunderstanding between the words NOT and NO.
The Anatta-Lakkhana Sutta makes it all very clear.
The other big bugaboo in Buddhism is the notion that Buddha is the author of the Mahayana Sutras, which was widely believed by most of the great Zen Masters, but has now been demolished by modern scholarship. They are much later writings.
Everything is mind = panpsychism, mind is the basis as distinct from matter = idealism
It doesn't make sense without rebirth in the mix.
@@sugarfree1894 It makes sense to me with or without.
Stop making sense!
Ooh... Byrne!!🔥😜
@@HardcoreZen
I think that, whether or not Buddhism wants to allow for the reincarnation of a "personalistic" aspect, this would be irrelevant due to the dissolution and non-reality of this aspect that we take as "I", as "identity"... because what we understand as "I", as "ourselves" is a gross construct of complete illusion of individuality, existing only for the purpose of separating ourselves from the whole in order to experience life in a differentiated way.
that is, this thing, even if it were reincarnated, is a "piece" and therefore, saying that we reincarnate is irrelevant because this piece would not even be the true self. Something that, in itself, is totally devoid of personality, is something transpersonal, like the atma. So ok. Buddhism could say it in two ways: yes, we reincarnate in this 'personalistic' piece, and we would reincarnate in the transcendent transpersonal piece, but in the second case, because this thing never even really died. He is beyond this body. The ultimate question is: Do you eliminate your suffering by reincarnation? No. So why cling to it. Live life here and now. Get rid of suffering while you are still aware of it. You may live one life or a thousand... The suffering will be the same. Greater or lesser kharma... Reincarnation or no reincarnation. None of this is relevant because suffering will continue to occur as long as there is this false sense of self present in all of us. And this false sense is what will put you in an endless cycle of reincarnation. So in the end... Is it really worth believing in reincarnation or not? The tragedy will be the same.
The impersonal, or none individualized Awareness (what you are) was never incarnated, so won't be reincarnating any time soon. Its just what is now, even as perceptions are constantly shifting and alternating between various states, like waking, dream.. deep sleep.. the interim between death, various realms and so on.
The idea of Incarnation/reincarnation includes hell, heaven, better or worse human births and so on. The desire to remain Incarnated, as well as to avoid hell.. attain heaven are all included. Its not a small thing. It's the stuff of the majority of religion.
@@michaelmcclure3383 Yes. It may indeed not be a small thing. But for Buddhist thought, is reincarnation really that relevant? If Buddha and other authorities avoid giving it so much importance... in addition to all the assumptions that insist on remembering the importance of the PRESENT...
reincarnation does not seem to be something relevant to practice. Not something to be held to with such zeal. And I do not say this in the sense of not believing in reincarnation, but rather of not clinging to this aspect.
Just as one should not cling to gods, or demons or ghosts that, regardless of their existence, will not eliminate the suffering that is the tragedy of life.
Personally, in theoretical terms, I find it an extremely interesting subject. But I am aware that this will not make me any less of a "sufferer", so to speak...
@azraeldeaguiar well, if reincarnation is irrelevant then so is the law of cause and effect (karma), because they're intimately related.
I'd say for the vast majority of Buddhists and Hindus such things are front and center.. not enlightenment, not actual liberation from samsara. Real interest in liberation is for the few, as ever
I know Buddhists squabble ahout the Hindu notion of the jiva.. which dualistic hindus say reincarnates, but they seem just as caught up in reincarnation and karma they just frame it differently.
I come from a Vedantic pov and it seems a lot simpler in Advaita Vedanta, maybe because they address it more. Basically they say from the pov of the assumed individual there is karma, there is reincarnation, other realms and so on. But from the pov of the Self none of it is real.. nor does it pertain to our true nature. I guess for Buddhists no self is foundational.. so more intricate gymnastics are required at the exoteric level of their religion to affirm the truth of karma and reincarnation.. because who does it pertain to exactly? So you find zen masters like Dogen saying various contradictory things about reincarnation. That's not surprising because it depends who he's talking to doesn't it.
@@michaelmcclure3383 OK, you have a good point.
I confess that the subject of reincarnation in Buddhism is a delicate one, because there are several branches and each one affirms and believes in something different.
Buddha accepts as true that there is reincarnation, but immediately says that there is no perpetual self. Even so, he reaffirms that there is kharma. So, yes, things get confusing.
But where there is predominantly a constant denial of reincarnation is in Zen, apparently.
In Vajrayana Buddhism, however, it is emphatically reaffirmed. Not only reincarnation itself, but life after death.
So, in the end, each sect could believe in something. It would be easier to ask "which Buddhism believes in reincarnation and which does not?" than to ask "Does Buddhism believe in reincarnation?" I think about that.
In some branches of Buddhism, even the sense of the true self, as Atma, even though Buddha had initially denied it, reappears historically under another name and conceptually similar to Atma later on.
Now perhaps I should admit that the relevance is not small for some sects. But in general, whether one believes in it or not, it seems that work in the here and now is very much emphasized in all of them. As much as is necessary to be done precisely to no longer be subjected to reincarnation.
Even in Kabbalistic branches we see a similar thought about the "rectification of the soul", which basically consists of correcting all the sparks, reforming and crystallizing one's inner self, so as to cease any need to return to this fallen world. Anyway, I think it is a very interesting and vast subject.
i'm im the habit of taking selfies
Hope your shit pays well.
@@iandavies6474 My shit does not pay at all!
Beliefs (Ditthi) must be removed to be enlightened.
@hardkorezen
I believe in Ai
Check amon nisim Ai master
2:07