To quote Eddie Kingston: "Just because Kayfabe is dead that doesn't mean we should piss on its grave." Yes, we all know it's fake, we know these people (usually) don't actually hate each other or want to harm each other, we know it's a soap opera, duh. But that doesn't mean I want 4th wall breaking and constant reminders that I'm watching a show. With the exception of Deadpool when you go see a superhero movie they don't have the heroes turn to the audience and say "By the way I'm hollywood movie star Chris Evans playing the role of Captain America I hope you're enjoying my character arc" mid scene. That's really all I ask. Podcasts and social media are where shoots can live, just don't shoot on the actual programs lol.
I like when they pivot to a work to protect the show on interviews and podcasts as well. Was watching Swerve's Breakfast Club interview the other day and they were shooting about some serious and poignant topics around his life and the industry... then when his new deal came up someone asked him what he spent his bonus check on and he was like 'oh yeah, I bought my childhood home and Hanger burned that MFer down.'
The only kayfabe I really want to ensure is held up is calling wrestlers their wrestling names in public. No fan should call CM punk Phil. No fan should call Kenny Omega Tyson.
Agreed with Omega, or guys like Kevin Owens, but Punk kinda work as Phil. Probably cause Chicken Magnet Punk (or Chicago Made Punk) is obviously a stage name that sometimes Phil Brooks aint so strange. plus CM Punk like to blend keyfabe and reality.
I think usually in AEW's finisher near falls the finisher is done little bit differently than usual. For example Ospreay's hidden blades usually doesn't get 3 counts if he hits them from front. Makes kinda sense because its not that hidden if opponent sees it! When he does it from behind he basically always gets the pin.
It's also not very realistic (talking about kayfabe), that a certain move is so much stronger than every other thing they do. If... it is a hard hitting move like a special piledriver or someone is an expert in one field and is going for his unique finisher that he ist just so good at that nobody can kick/tap out, sure. But for my taste it is too easy that the finisher of a wrestler just has to always be the end. It's also not the same in fighting, which wrestling is simulating. Sure, someone with a great hook or a high kick probably has the biggest chance to knock you out with it, but it depends on luck, strength in that moment, mindset etc. pp. Of course you shouldn't just do it arbitrarily to weaken your tools, but these pros know how to make it work. For me, it just makes it so much more exciting.
One fun way to do kayfabe is tongue-and-cheek. A fresh example is STARDOM where Toni Storm is teaming up with Mina Shirakawa, and everytime either Mina or the official STARDOM tweet about it they add a note saying "Don't tell Mariah". I prefer this playful way to do it.
We lost quite a bit with getting rid of Kayfabe, but we gained more humanity in an industry that was killing itself. The only thing I wished was more consistency, when Liv Morgan was on instagram calling out Rhea Ripley about Dom, Rhea was posting pictures about her real life marriage. Making things a bit weird. Either you continue the show on social media or you don't, just don't mix.
Personally, while i thought the Cody & Roman promo was good in content and execution, i thought it was WAY too overproduced. The music was overpowering, and the B-Roll shots basically doubled the length of the promo. However, i loved the Hangman/Swerve promo because there was still an aspect of interaction with the crowd. You could hear them roar as they realized what was going to happen. It was awesome. So i guess my conclusion is that i prefer some element where you can hear the crowd and theres that interaction. Without them, the promo felt a bit awkward to me.
I'm with you the cody/roman promo is so dramatic for the absolute silence it's surrounded by. These are guys who are usesd to having to be big because they gotta play to the people in the back over the screams of the crowd, it jsut doesn't work where there's closeups and mics
Inter-gender wrestling is a lot more common on the indies. Candice LeRae is one of my favorite wrestlers ever and her matches with Cedric Alexander and her tag team with Joey Ryan are some of my favorites.
TNA still does mixed tag matches where there's no rules about women only fighting the women. Or Jordynne Grace pinning Bully Ray to win their version of a Royal Rumble last year
@@Billy2-pg3zj My view is this. Everyone knows wrestling is scripted. Therefore it doesn't matter if men wrestle women as long as both are skilled. On another note I still prefer the E-li Drake name over L A Knight.
at extreme Rules 2019, Baron Corbin hit End of Days on Becky Lynch, the crowd went quiet for a second, but lost their SHIT (in the best way) when they realized Becky was okay! (it was a mixed tag with Seth and Becky vs Corbin and Lacey Evans)
I think if I saw a photo of Adam Page and Shane Strickland having lunch, it would dispel a bit of the illusion. However, if I were to hear a story that they were actually great friends and hangman was at swerve's real housewarming wouldn't surprise me at all. It is obvious that working such risky spots takes an extreme trust and I can't imagine that it is purely professional respect in isolation. What also spoils the feel is petty twitter beef. Sometimes real antagonism looks childish and defangs the in-ring threat.
Kayfabe doesn’t matter anymore to me. But too the guys who keep kayfabe and character in tact earn my respect. Examples rn for me are the outrunners, MJF, The WWE (Hey man it’s hard making sure heels and faces aren’t together in public)
@@philo2189this is pretty much my take. I don’t care about this because I can see Robert Pattinson and Colin Farrell hanging out on set of The Batman for example and nobody thinks it harms the movie.
Kayfabe: I like the behind-the-scenes photos and stories. Like you said, it's like watching a blooper reel from a movie, where the actor playing the villain is friends with the hero. Just don't call wrestlers by their real names - we know CM Punk, we don't know Phil Brooks. Finishers: I adjust my expectations based on the promotion. If I'm watching WWE, I generally expect a finisher to end a match (except, as you mentioned, the Cross-Rhodes which doesn't really work unless Cody hits it 2-3 times). If I'm watching AEW or New Japan, I expect false finishes, and I expect people to have multiple finishers. One of the things I love about wrestlers like Will Ospreay and Bryan Danielson is that any one of 5 moves for them can end a match, and it's part of the story they're telling as to which one works. Sometimes it's power-scaling, like Ospreay using the Tiger Driver as his last resort against another S-tier wrestler, and sometimes it's psychology, like Danielson using the Busaiku as a general finisher and submission finishers like the heel hook or Lebell Lock on wrestlers who are bigger and might not go down with a strike. Intergender Wrestling: This is something that is completely normal and accepted (for the most part) on the indies. It's presented as a normal match, no matter the size of the woman in question. Wrestlers like Candice LeRae, Athena, Ruby Soho, and Billie Starkz have wrestled (and beaten!) men much bigger than them the same way a smaller male wrestler can beat a larger male wrestler. Saying that intergender wrestling = domestic violence is kind of gross and demeans actual survivors of DV. Wrestling is a consensual performance between two people, it is not domestic violence. Shows: For PPVs/PLEs, I'd rather watch them at home. Seats might not be great, huge crowds are a lot. House shows are fine, I'd rather go to a WWE house show than a TV taping or PLE. My favorite shows to go to are Dynamite/Collision, AEW's tv shows/tapings are really great, worth the price but still cheaper than WWE, and you get some really quality matches.
Holy crap. The women's AJPW in the 90's is the greatest era ever for women. Manami Toyota, Akira Hokuto, Aja Kong, Inoue, Shimoda, and more. Just incredible (not to be confused with the wrestler of the same name).
@@rriggs6547 You're absolutely right. it's quite surreal how ahead of the game all Japan was in both the 80s and 90s In both men's and women's wrestling. Manami Toyota is my favorite! I also really enjoyed Dynamite Kansai, Shinobu Kandori and Many others! At least 200+ incredible wrestlers from that era alone. I always want new fans to discover AJPW, cause it really does change you.
@@NecroericUA-cam I feel like the late 80's was the high point for All Japan men and the early to mid 90's for the women. There were absolutely some outstanding wrestlers, matches, and stories. It certainly is not WWE style or even WCW or ECW, but if people can get past what they are used to seeing it was incredible.
LU had a lot of great Intergender matches. They are still done all the time in Japan. For instance Saki Arai (AKA Sakisama) is signed to DDT which is a men's promotion and she wrestles there often. She also works for TJPW the women's sister promotion. Or you have someone like Miu Yamashita or Syuri who are trained fighters in MMA and absolutely look the part. They can and do keep up with men.
I was on the indie circuit myself during the early 2000s, so some of my answers will derive from what I learned and experienced on there. Regarding kayfabe, while I’m totally okay with seeing and hearing about stuff behind the scenes, I do wish there was a little more consistency when it comes to social media posts. When I was wrestling myself, a lot of the older generation most definitely expected us to keep up kayfabe 100%, but the workers my age didn’t really care for all the secrecy & special terminology. At one point, the social media handling of our company was left up to me, and I determined that the best way to handle it was for each wrestler to have two separate accounts. One for their character, and one for their real life. That way, if they wanted to show bts stuff, that could be on their personal page, but then anything story related stayed on the character page. I do wish it would still be like that, because it can be somewhat counterintuitive when their pages are a mix of both, and sometimes they’re in character, then sometimes they’re not. Like, you wouldn’t see Robert Downey Jr suddenly post like he’s a Tony Stark. When it comes to inter-gender matches, well, we pretty much had to allow full-blown matches because most of the time, there was only 1-2 women on a roster worth 10-20 guys. I’m a small guy, especially compared to most wrestlers. I’m only 5’2”, often times, the 1-2 women we had on the roster were pretty close to me size and/or weight, so I would advocate for them wrestling against me to help get them started. Even in those matches, tho, I still treated it similar to what you described, in that it was far more grapples than it was strikes, plus the limited strikes might just be to the torso or legs. When it comes to WWE, though, I do understand that it should be very limited due to how it can look. They should definitely keep it in similar weight/size classes if/when it happens. Someone like Rhea or Nia taking on the average size men should be okay in moderation, but I’d never want to see a smaller woman like Alexa taking on a larger guy like Bronson Reed. As for live shows, I’m in South MS, so I don’t get many opportunities around here. Mostly have to travel to New Orleans for better shows now, and I’d prefer it be an aired show, even if it’s just the filler type of Raw or Smackdown. I keep hoping for another PLE in New Orleans, because it’s been a while since they’ve had one there!
Great discussion points! Kayfabe: I think the problem is over exposure of wrestler. I think fans can go overboard an not respect their personal space. But I'm also fine with seeing feuding wrestler hangout. It would be cool if they can avoid that until the feud is done or address it and make it part of the story like they were just being professional. Favorite promo type: Twitter. I like seeing Drew take picture with Jack Perry more than a 4K, big budget cinematic. I feel like when they make it too cinematic it starts to feel artificial. Kinda like how I wouldn't want to watch that in middle of a theater performance. False Finishers: I agree with you. But also I like finishers being built up. Like show someone practicing Ankle lock and show that that specific ankle lock is better that everyone else's. I like how they built up Osprey's Tiger Driver recently. I'm okay with him doing cross rhodes and failing because he doesn't know how to. But Cody's finisher needs to be sold more. I also want to see finishers be used less. Like have Cody win with Cody Cutter or something and only bring Cross Rhodes when absolutely necessary and then have him win. Intergender: Yeah. I agree. Strikes feels off. But I don't want to see intergender wrestling in WWE specifically. At least not now. Because of their history of how they treated women. It's easy to say that was Vince but I don't think a person can away with that level of awful without a network of creeps. Those creeps are still there because they weren't weeded out. Of course Idk for sure. No one does but why take the risk at all. I want wrestlers to be protected. Live show vs on tv: At the show. But my favorite expereince has been at indy wrestling where you are up close. PLEs are great but I've had some awful seats where you don't even get a good view of the screen.
I think kayfabe is still important in the sense that I want to believe no matter the act, serious,comedic, and inbetween, in the confines of wrestling is actually that person. For the example of Punk and Drew, Hangman and Swerve, the behind the scenes doesnt shatter too much for me as an adult if I were to see them backstage together, I know its predetermined. But if on the show I'm watching im able to believe that they would do this or that then I'm good! For promos, i prefer the ones in the ring personally. I typically do enjoy the regular backstage and the theatrical backstage ones as well, but even if the crowd is ruining a promo it gives more freedom to the wrestler to play off the crowd and stuff like that. The crowd for live promos can alter a live promo either good or bad but i enjoy that aspect of pro wrestling. The crowd is actively akways part of the show. False finishes i dont typically mind. "Finishers" the term i believe came from the games more so thats why i prefer the term signature moves because there not implication of it being the end. I feel in wrestling nowadays, due to the amount of false finishes, it behooves the wrestler have more than one big move so that you can kinda have that move you protect more than the other. There are still some solid examples of finishers being protected in the biz, i think Baron Corbin's End of Days has only been kicked out of a couple times i believe, and Kenny Omega's One Winged Angel famously has "never" been kicked out of (i think besides a couple times in japan). To me, i dont mind intergender wrestling. I understand the notion that it could remind you of DV but to me that is reinforcing the idea that a woman in this type of sport are not as strong as the men. Not saying you think that or anything, but that preconceived idea that a man striking a woman is assault when within the confines of the sport of professional wrestling, they wouldnt approach wrestling a woman differently than a man, it is an opponent in the ring. If you think of the woman or anyone as an equal competitor in the ring, there is no issue to the strikes as there are mant heavy hitting, violent women in wrestling. In person is just so awesome. I love watching a show on tv with the added things and commentary but live kicks so much ass. Especially AEW, you can always count on the in ring action happening is gonna rock. Ive never been to a stadium, and i could see that maybe being less fun depending on seat viewing and stuff but an arena is always awesome. This is just how i feel about the questions and is in no reality the absolute correct way of thinking or anything; just how i feel about things. Its always okay to like what you like and if thats not how you like to think of stuff thats okay! Wrestling rocks, support wrestling forever!
The term “finish/finisher” has been around much longer than games, it’s a genuine pro wrestling term. That’s why you always hear the old school guys say things “go out there give me 7-8 minutes hit your finish and go home.” Honestly from what I remember signature move is more as video game term
On finishers and near falls, I've always preferred the mentality that any move could end a match. A wrestler just having a collection of moves they've mastered, where some are to wear the other guy down, and some are these big haymakers with the intent of finishing the match, and it's just a question of how many times they need to hit the other guy before they can't get up. Eddie Kingston and Walter do this exceptionally well. They just don't have finishers. They have a collection of strikes, grapples and holds to wear the other guy down, and then they've got big power moves. How many powerbombs, strikes to the head, piledrivers, top rope splashes, will it take to end the other guy. But wrestling is a variety show, and it's only special if it's not every match. So the counter point is those moves that are very hard to pull off, so you need to wear the other guy down first, but ALWAYS end the match. One Winged Angel and Stormbreaker being 2 of the best examples, but you could also throw in a lot of the high flyer moves, that the set up time needed makes it easier to counter, but if it works it wins. Styles Clash was like that for a long time, Tombstone definitely. Samoa Joe's Muscle Buster, for a long time Joe wouldn't even attempt a pin for any of his offence unless he'd hit the Muscle Buster where he's definitely going to get a 3. The complexity and likelihood of a reversal being used, rather than hitting the move and having them kick out. Thats the 2 ends of the spectrum, and I have no issues with either. It's the ones in the middle where things get more awkward. The guys who only have one finisher that gets kicked out of all the time, so it's not really a good finisher. The complex to set up moves that never get countered, and often get kicked out of, like why would you go to that much trouble if you don't know it will end the match?
for the larger promotions like wwe or aew the TV adaptation is undeniably the objective better viewing method, but man seeing a good indie match kive and participating individually to the match eith chants. Thats electric
Personally it's prerecorded promos, you already mentioned the house fire and the football field but just a simple one that really helped was the recent Monster vs Monster in Last Monster Standing on RAW. I've been enjoying that fued with Bronson Reed and Braun Strowman and seeing this promo of each in the city recking building really playing on the Godzilla vs Kong aspect and I absolutely loved it. It's not easy to do a promo like that but when it's pulled off well it's great.
Honestly, as far as kayfabe and finishers go, I would say it depends on the promotion. I tend to view each promotion as its own contained world vs having a generally shared idea of wrestling. For example, promotions in japan like All Japan, New Japan and Pro Wrestling Noah have wrestlers that have multiple finishers and finisher variations. These finishers arent all equal though, wrestlers may kick out of V-Triggers and Destinos but no one kicks out of Kobashi's Burning Hammer. This is because out of his 4-5 finishers, the Burning Hammer is a Super Finisher, similar to anime and video games, where characters will have an ability that they rarely use and will guarantee the win. The same thing applies to kayfabe in other companies, it depends on how serious the promotion takes itself, as most companies have a specific brand of wrestling they focus on, sort of like a genre or niche. In the territory days, it sometimes helped that some of these blood feuds were created from real world issues between wrestlers. In my opinion it depends on the stakes of the matches in question, but i'm sure the wrestlers can come up with a creative reason they were seem together.
Please collaborate with former WWE wrestler turned youtuber Maven Huffman. He answers wrestling q and a especially related to backstage going on. I am sure he would be happy yo answer your questions regarding wrestling
1. Kayfabe is an interesting concept to me. I appreciate wrestlers like MJF who keep kayfabe but I also love to see wrestlers being themselves outside of the product. I think I feel the same as you where it is like seeing an actor behind the scenes. We have pretty much passed the point where most people know it's a performance and these are athletes protecting each other. I don't mind knowing that these two people who have to have immense trust in each other hang out or communicate outside of their work. 2. I like the cinematic promos/matches and believe that they push the medium forward. I also agree that they are better in moderation and I would not necessarily want every promo or match to be cinematic. I don't know which one is more effective to me because it very much depends on the feud and promo in question. 3. I don't mind false finishes but I agree that to me, when you kick out of someone's finisher, it can kind of hurts the move. There's a reason almost no one kicked out of the One Winged Angel or the End of Days for years. It makes the move feel stronger and when someone does kick out of it, it feels significant. If someone kicks out of your finisher all the time, it's not a finishing move. It's another signature move. I also think there are just too many false finishes in general. One or two is fine but more than that is excessive. 4. I don't mind intergender wrestling. It's the same as any other style for me. As long as the wrestlers are able to protect each other and put on a good match, I have absolutely no problem with wrestlers wrestling whoever they want to. God this turned into a longer comment than I meant it to be but I love answering questions like this.
I enjoy watching it at home with my friends more than being there in person, but occasionally like for a very special event it is more hype in person. But that's, because it is so rare :)
1. 90-10 2. Protected finishers are a rare thing nowadays in all companies honestly. The One Winged Angel and the Buckshot Lariat are the few things that come to mind that actually finish a match. 3. Never was. Only DDT and Indy promotions actually do that stuff. 4. 50-50. Stadium shows I’d rather watch on TV. Weekly shows I would go to more often
During the "Attirude Era"there was a female wrestler named Chyna who challenged the male wrestlers. She was the first woman to participate in the Royal Rumble, and the only woman to have held the Intercontinental Title (and she did it twice). I would recommend watching her "Good Housekeeping" match with Jeff Jarrett from 1999.
1. I don’t need them to hate each other outside of wrestling, but it does help when they do. Same with staying in character 24/7 like MJF 2. Cinematic promos like that need to be rare. Part of the appeal of wrestling matches and promos is the fact that they only get one take and if they mess up, everyone sees it. Also, the reason they did the promo like that is because they need to work around Roman’s schedule. 3. It depends on how big the match is. If it’s Seth Rollins vs Ludwig Kaiser on Raw, one stomp should do the trick. But Seth should use multiple stomps if he’s facing Cody at Wrestlemania. Also, I’m not a huge fan of Kenny Omega, but I do respect that his finisher is not kicked out of. 4. Chyna won the IC title in the 90s. I actually want Rhea Ripley vs Dominic Mysterio at Wrestlemania and I agree, strikes should be avoided because of the similarities to domestic violence. But I would be ok with grapples and wrestling moves, or a heel man putting on a cocky submission for heat. 5. The atmosphere is important to me.
Liv and Dom always keep kayfabe outside the ring, even before their current storyline. That’s why the pairing works with them in particular. They are incredible at staying in character. I suggest watching their old interviews throughout their careers.
1. "How do you feel about wresters in a feud being seen acting friendly together?" I think at this point it doesn't matter. Everybody knows it's not real. I think the biggest thing keeping Kayfabe alive now are wrestlers still choosing to do interviews in-character (MJF interviews, Christian's interview with CVV, etc.). But some wrestlers see it differently. Dominik Mysterio was on Logan Paul's podcast a little while ago and was visibly uncomfortable being asked to choose between Rhea and his wife. It really depends on the guys involved. I don't care if I see Roman and Cody doing press together, but I admit it'd be a bit surprising even in today's age if the same happened with Hangman and Swerve. 2. The effectiveness of a promo should not be based on environment or the effects but solely whether or not the crowd is invested. As long as each character is saying something that makes sense for where they are at that point in time, and they're saying something they're motivated to say, then it doesn't matter to me. MJF/Punk promos could've been recorded in the middle of a Starbucks and I'd think of it the same. 3. Finishers need a massive overhaul in protection. Scott Hall would specifically not hit the Razor's Edge if he knew he was booked to lose. The End of Days has only been kicked out of once. The One Winged Angel has only been kicked out of 3 times (and 2 of those were Kenny himself). That being said, finishers might not even be the problem. Take Cole/Gargano at Takeover NY. You could keep every finisher and huge spot in that match. Just don't go for the pinfalls. Take the time to gloat and heel it up and show dominance while giving the face recovery time, and THEN they comeback. It starts to devalue non-finisher moves if guys are just kicking out all the time. You could take that Cole/Gargano match and take out 3 pin attempts from ANYWHERE in the match and the drama remains the same. 4. The last real intergender program was probably when Chyna was wrestling because she was simply more skilled in the ring and more physically imposing than most other women of her time. Most intergender spots now are for Rumbles (Beth Phoenix in 2010, Nia Jax in 2022). It's much more common in the superindies. Candice LeRae had a lot of intergender maches in ROH and PWG. Ivelisse Velez had BANGERS with guys in Lucha Underground. It's not very common nowadays because it's very hard to pitch to advertisers "Oh yeah and then we're gonna have two of our guys powerbomb this woman through the announce table" or anything similar to that. That being said I think someone like Rhea Ripley who has had so much recognition from non-wrestling fans that they could put her in a match with safe hands like Rey or Miz and I don't think the average person would bat an eye. 5. In-person really depends on your seats. If you're in the first few rows then you're seeing everything. If you're up in the nosebleeds then you paid extra to have to crane your neck up and watch the overhead screens or the titantron to see whats going on, which will have the same angles and editing as the TV feed. That being said, the vibe in person was just different. I was in attendance for the Pipe Bomb, and they taped next weeks Raw right afterward, and the attitude of the crowd during the second show is unlike anything I'd experienced up to that point.
The type of promo for me purely depends on the story being told. Certain stories call for certain types of promos, whether its a big cinematic scene or a post match interaction
Fan since 2002. I literally just view the wrestlers like actors in a movie. Outside of work, they are just people. I can suspend my disbelief that they hate each other on TV much like two actors would. Although I do respect the wrestlers who actively try to keep kayfabe just because that takes a lot of commitment.
With regards to the kayfabe q, for me it doesn't detract if they don't maintain it, it's hard to in these times. But, if a wrestler does, to me they're going the extra mile, they're paying homage to the past and I think that's awesome. Watch the recentish Christian Cage on Chris Van Vilet, he's blurring the lining between his real life persona and his in ring persona
The false finish thing is really dependent on who is doing it and what the story is. Ive seen some matches where the false finishes feel pointless and forced but ive seen others where each false fall elevated the matches Its like match stipulation. A hell in a cell is a great feud ender but you dont want to see it every week.
it's extremely easy to differentiate character vs person when you don't use social media because im not thinking about "is this rhea ripley saying it or is it demi bennet" when i see a post or something about the finishers: i enjoy how it is now in WWE, back in the golden era(maybe and probably later too) it was the finisher finished the match(im no expert so maybe there was occasion where people did kick out, but it was probably very rare.) there's nothing exciting after a finisher is pulled off if that means its an automatic win, the way it is now, sometimes a finisher is the end, sometimes it get reversed, sometimes they kick out. I don't feel as if finishers look weak in the current state of WWE, i think it makes the superstars look stronger. you mentioned cody, i think he needs to make the disaster kick his main finisher, imo it's his strongest signature/finisher, and move the cross rhodes to a signature move. Vince McMahon had a street fight against Stephanie 6 days before hers and Paul's real life wedding
For the going vs staying home question it depends where you live most of the time. I am blessed to be in a place where i can go to new York, Baltimore,Philly or DC. The crowds in those places are always electric and a blast to be around so im going every time. Meanwhile if you are in the middle of nowhere and the fans are known to be more tempered and potentially quiet then id stay home more tha not.
I think of them more as "signature maneuvers" than "finishers". The finish shouldn't always be dependent on hitting a particular move every time anyways, right? You can always depend on that surprise roll up!
Not only do I think finishers should live up to their name and finish matches more often, wrestler's signature spots that always seem to be kick outs should also be alternate finishers that sometimes get them wins on tv. If Sami Zayn pinned someone with a blue thunder bomb more than once every 5 years, his suprise at people kicking out wouldn't be as stupid.
1. Whatever measure of kayfabe a performer wants to put out there is fine by me. In the end it's up to the fans to sort of police their own enjoyment of kayfabe at this point. I don't follow any wrestlers on social media because I think in kayfabe social media can be silly (although the Rhea/Dom stuff has been great from what I've seen, as has Drew's stuff lately), but if I were the type that didn't want to see behind the curtain, I'd avoid looking behind that curtain. 2. To me, those things are less promos and more like angles. That could be splitting hairs, but my old school self always viewed either one guy in the back talking straight to the camera,or one or more guys in the ring waxing philosophically to one another and the crowd is more of a promo. I liked the Hangman bit because it felt raw and real to an extent, whereas I felt like the Cody/Roman stuff was a bit too verbose, over produced, and on the nose with metaphors (did they really have to play a song called "eye of the storm" while they're meeting on neutral ground? Did they have to play a song at all?). I prefer the backstage, looking straight down the lens, maybe accompanied by an interview style of promo though. It lets me know how talented someone is on the microphone and if they're good, that can get me more invested than a hype package for meeting on a football field or even lighting your opponent's house on fire. 3. I feel like I could write an essay on the psychology and origins of false finishes, from roots in the Kings Road style where career ending moves were invented, adapted to, and modified over time, to WWE where Wrestlemania kind of innovated the big kick out moment on the grandest stage. I'm of two minds when it comes to it though. I do think AEW does it too often...as in like...weekly, but at the same time most of the moves being kicked out of aren't sole or primary finishers. Ospreay has like 4 finishers in his arsenal, some of which have devolved into signature moves, which is something you'll see all over wrestling, but the Tiger Driver 91 is the killer. It is protected, just like Omega's One-Winged Angel. People just don't kick out of those. There are certain moves that are definitive match enders, whereas there are others that are "common" spammable ones like Hidden Blade, The V-Trigger, the Oscutter, or even Cross Rhodes. I do hope wrestling evolves past regularly used definitive match enders at some point and that we'll see more common B-grade "TV finishers" while something like the Tiger Driver 91 becomes a unicorn that's whipped out for big PPV/PLE matches to deliver a definitive kill shot because it's too demoralizing and dangerous to hit on the regular. THAT would be protecting true finishers, and it's not a novel or new idea. 4. Intergender was dabbled with in both WCW and WWF during the Attitude Era. Talents like Madusa, Jacqueline, and Chyna held men's titles. You could arguably go all the way back to Memphis where Andy Kaufman was the king of intergender wrestling and Memphis. I'd debate how respectable any of those reigns were treated, but it's something that happened basically everywhere in wrestling at some point or another. I'd say in the 2010's it became common on the indies as well with tandems like Candice LeRae and Joey Ryan, LuFisto and Sexxxy Eddy, Kings of Wrestling with Sara Del Ray, and even random encounters in Japan like Asuka and Kenny Omega. Chikara Pro had a women as their world champion and plenty interacting with men in tag and trios action. Lucha Underground had trios champions that were intergender, and a handful of intergender matches on their programming in both singles and tag action. Lucha libre in general never truly shied away from intergender action. It's not the taboo people like to pretend it is, but I do get the sponsorship argument and I do understand that major promotions don't want it on their heads when big bro beats up little sister and blames it on their programming, but it's still prevalent on the indies and outside of the U.S. I remember seeing clips of Maki Itoh vs Minoru Suzuki of all things not that long ago, and she tags with guys all the time in the U.S. and Japan. I think it is worth mentioning that domestic violence can go both ways as well, so if one depiction of a sex hitting another is bad then none of it should be allowed on television. 5. I'm a homebody and I like gathering with friends to watch on TV. Live can be fun, and I've been part of big moments live, but I think I prefer watching on TV. Live indies though? That's a whole other story. I get way more out of that and way more bang for my buck going to indies live.
With the Cody and Roman promo, I think the main reason they did that is because you have two top babyfaces and the crowd will naturally favor one person over the other. So, I think WWE wanting to avoid the possibility of one of them being booed in favor of the other. So in that case, I didn’t mind the cinematic video package promos
Asuka and that absolute menace Minoru Suzuki had an inter gender match ( or some form of one) and it was brutal. Like a lot worse than a stiff match between two men. While it did prove Asuka is one of the best wrestlers in this generation and showcase just how merciless Suzuki is while also gaining a lot of respect from fans and performers alike, matches like that are probably why they aren’t very common in mainstream wrestling. Now obviously an inter gender match doesn’t have to be as brutal as that one was but I think it’s the idea that it would make a lot of people uncomfortable to see.
To be fair Asuka asked Suzuki to treat it like a shoot and not to hold back and act like Minoru just snapped. Minoru was understandably reluctant to do it but Asuka was the booker/promoter of the show and the one paying Minoru
@@phillipseaton9389 True. But a lot of people didn’t know that for a while. And if something like that were ever to be done in WWE or AEW the initial reaction from the crowd and even people at home would be pretty shocked. Even if details revealed later that make it more understandable, the initial reaction would go a long way. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing that Asuka had that matched booked. It’s certainly an interesting perspective into the mindset and characters of both Suzuki and Asuka, but also an interesting perspective into pro wrestling itself and the history people don’t know. I’m just saying that there’s a reason why that kind of match wouldn’t ever happen in any major promotion even if everyone involved is on board.
First question: I don’t mind if I see two actors that are enemies on a show together, so I also don’t mind wrestlers hanging out outside of a wrestling event. Like if it’s an event that’s like a “meet the wrestlers” thing, then yeah they should maintain their characters. Second question: the best is the cinema style, but it’s best because it doesn’t get used a lot. If it were weekly, it would kill itself very quickly. In a week to week deal, getting in the ring is definitely the best route. False finishes is something that I wish were used less often in AEW. As far as I can remember, there’s been so few kick outs of the One-Winged Angel that you can count on one hand, so when someone kicks out of that, that would be huge. But, and don’t get me wrong I love Okada, but why does it feel like it takes 4 Rainmakers to put anyone down? Intergender I’m not sure of, but usually it’s acceptable only if the man gets his ass kicked and I can understand why. There was an infamous match between Kana (now Asuka) and Suzuki, if I recall correctly, where Suzuki beat the absolute shit out of Kana. I feel like it could work, but it would need to be introduced slowly and considerately. I will say that, because intergender is so uncommon, it feels like a great way for a heel to get nuclear heat by attacking a woman. I also cannot for the life of me remember the match or context but I remember a match where Lita was being a royal pain in the ass for the face that was wrestling Edge (honestly I wanna say it was Cena but I don’t remember) and she was put through a table before the end of the match and I remember the crowd EXPLODING for the moment. Biggest pop of the match. I’d rather watch on TV instead of in person unless I have really close seats. Last time I went to a show I felt like it was much worse than just watching on TV because I was a few rows up and couldn’t see much.
Watching wrestling as an adult now..I don't care for Kayfabe. I love seeing the wrestlers chilling and enjoying themselves, its a testament to how good they are with their personas. Like seeing Nia Jax be super mean on camera but seeing how sweet she is behind the scenes is really cool to me. Off screen promos are cool because they can have the atmosphere they want, and also we won't get "what" chants! False finishes are cool, I wished they would win matches with different moves though just to throw us off. Like some moves like Andrade's elbow looks like it will kill you...but he never wins with it. Give us some wins with these other moves sometimes so we don't always need to see the actual finisher be the end all. Not too big a fan of the intergender thing, I read someone's comment about how women aren't valued enough to fight with the guys but I think its that they are good enough to stand on their own! I also notice that the guys work at a faster pace, the women kind of seem like they are performing together where as the guys seem like they are really going at it so I'm not sure how those styles would mesh. I'd like to see wrestling live at least once, but I like tv. I like to not see a run in, and be able to see all the action. I'm assuming having the wrong seats will cause you to miss a lot!
Alright, so in regards to kayfabe, I sometimes feel it depends on the situation. (Hi, indie wrestler from Australia here). Obviously if two people are in a vicious blood feud, I don't wanna see them being all buddy-buddy out in public. That said, *especially* at shows, I still insist on keeping some level of kayfabe. At shows, even when I'm meeting people either during intermission or after the show, I still keep up the act, don't go talking to other workers that I'm supposed to be against. That said, while working my day job the other day, one of the other workers came into the store I was doing security at (he works next door) and a few fans saw us chatting, despite me being a face and him being a heel. We didn't start acting like we hated each other then and there. (We did joke that we were totally just getting ready to fight each other). I think some small amount of kayfabe should be kept, but let's not go as overboard as they did in the old days. I really have no strong opinion one way or the other on promos, but to be fair, I'm not too good at promos (thankfully my gimmick is sold by my size, not my words). Personally, I prefer doing pre-recorded promos just because if there's a mistake, I can either re-take it or edit it out (my pre-recorded promos tend to be very heavily edited). Alright, now the finisher question is literally the only reason I wanted to comment. For years even before I started wrestling, I have *hated* with a burning passion, the overuse of false finishes. A good false finish at the right time in the right match is great. Look at the false finishes in some of The Undertaker's WreslteMania matches against Shawn Michaels and Triple H, they are things of beauty. But nowadays, when every other match on the undercard has each guy hitting their finish and the other guy kicking out and they make the same stupid expression every time, it just gets tiring and makes the actual finish mean nothing. That's why I love what Baron Corbin did with the End of Days, where still to this day, the only person to have ever kicked out of it is Drew McIntyre at WrestleMania. And not early days Chosen One or 3MB Drew McIntyre, but former 2-time WWE Champion about to go into more main event feuds Drew McIntyre. Like, as you said, there are other ways to use someone's finisher to not end the match, maybe they hit it too close to the ropes and they have time to roll out, maybe someone breaks it up, or hell, my favourite finish to use is the old "A tries to hit their finish, B reverses and goes to hit their finish, A reverses and hits their finish this time". Was there a time intergender wrestling was a normal thing? Uhhhh..... women used to be on the same level as little people in wrestling. Andy Kaufman made wrestling women his whole thing as part of his shows. Honestly, I love that intergender wrestling has become more of a thing, though to be fair, in my local promotion we mainly have intergender matches because we don't really have enough women to have a whole separate division. I can't really comment on the different experiences. I had been wrestling for 3 years before I was ever just in the audience for a wrestling show, and I've only been to independent wrestling shows. I'm from a city that never had wrestling until just before I started (and I didn't even know about them because the old owner wasn't exactly great at advertising), other than that we just had WWE on TV. (Also TNA, but they had the worst time slots, so I didn't really get to watch much of that). Even when WWE have come to Australia, like for Elimination Chamber in Perth, I didn't get to go because the tickets to the show would have been the cheapest part. It was about $2000 just for one flight to Perth.
With the kayfabe question the only time it puts me off is when it is inconsistent. For example if Drew was the one who shared that picture with Punk on social media that would annoy me. The reason being is Drew himself is using social media to further the feud and acting "in character". In a similar way having Orange Cassidy in a serious match do the lazy shin kicks and then someone really selling them is dumb but in a comedy match it is fine. Him doing it and then it being no sold would make sense. Sometimes I wish that wrestlers could/would have a kayfabe account and a separate one for the person behind the character. Hit the nail on the head with the balance of types of promos being needed. However if it had to be one or the other the ones in the ring would have to be the one to do. Those theatrical promos do hit harder but that's because they are sparse. Fans do ruin a lot of moments by going way too far with the boos, singing, and drowning things out too which really sucks. Late kickouts are cool but false finishes (late kick outs to finshes) they suck now because of overuse. Finishers need to be protected again. Three crossroads to beat Roman was great but it was immediately undercut when it was done again so soon after. What I would actually like to see is matches being won using more "signature" and regular moves. Kick outs of finishers should be used only at major PPVs for the most part and even then not on every match. If something is done in the undercard it takes away from the main event etc. The only other time would be to tell a story. Like someone could keep failing to put people away or a particular opponent using their finisher and so they have to come up with a new one. Their old one gets retired for a while, years even. Then one day they are in the main event at say WrestleMania and nothing is working and then they pull out their old finisher and the crowd will go nuts. Look at The Undertaker for example. He had the chokeslam, tombstone, and last ride. If you kick out of a chokeslam ok but a whole of something like 10 or so people kicked out of the Tombstone. With intergender matches they aren't common with the bigger promotions these days. You do get the occasional thing where some women attack some men. Rhea going after Dom, Nia entering the men's Royal Rumble. She took a few of the guy's finishers including taking an RKO. That got a huge pop. That was only 5 years ago. Beth Phoenix and Kharma (Awesome Kong) also were in the Men's Rumble before there was a women's one. Also of course Chyna was in two but she basically only fought men until really late in 2000 and then after she left WWF she went back to fighting men again for the rest of her relatively short career. I loved the matches in Lucha Underground between Penta and the Black Lotus Triad. I went to one House Show in Australia for WWE. In retrospect it was a better card than the latest PLE we had if you just go by who was on it. Sure the matches were lighter and they weren't special like the Elimination Chamber but man the card was solid. I mean we had everyone from Charlotte and Bayley, to Roman, Daniel Bryan, Luke Harper (Brodie Lee), the Kabuki Warriors, The IIconics... and plenty more. That same year I saw a NJPW show that was in Melbourne and there I saw Okada, Will Ospraey, GoD (Tama Tonga and Tonga Loa), Tanahasi, Jay White... and more. More recently I went to World Series Wrestling indie show and that blew my mind with how much access you got to the stars, I mean they all had booths selling merch and stuff. I mean yeah it is an "indie" show but there were a bunch of big ex-WWE names. Names who are on TNA and may return to WWE at any point. I've never had the opportunity to attend a TV episode or PPV for a major western promotion. I will be going to AEW Grand Slam in Brisbane though. For the price and where I am sitting I think the other shows are probably worth it more. But I guess I'll find out next year. I feel it is something I have to experience at least once just for the atmosphere. If I could I'd like to attend something like a WrestleMania even if it is in the cheap seats.
Invisible Stan Vs Invisible Man is my favourite level of kayfabe: as long as the audience is totally bought in, that's what really matters. Including me, watching at home. That's what matters.
To me, kayfabe matters more in the sense of verisimilitude. i.e. I want a match to look like a real contest without too many moves being obviously cooperative or contrived. I understand that real fights/mma look different, but it's still possible to make a pro wrestling match look legit without losing the drama and showmanship. It also bothers me when there backstage segments that seemingly ignore the camera. The roman/cody georgia tech segment bugged me a bit for that reason since crew should have been visible with how many angle changes they made, but I can excuse that one for the sake of being cinematic.
I appreciate Wrestlers who do shoot outside interviews keeping kayfabe about TV feuds and such. Hype up the company and the business but bury your opponent. Hangman isn't going to post a selfie with Swerve, etc. At a wrestlers wedding Toni Storm was in black and white in the official photos. Stuff like that is worth keeping kayfabe alive for in our twisted dark hearts.
11:27 my way to enjoy wrestling is the entrance theme songs, the theme songs is the most important thing about wrestling and the superstars. For WWE we don’t see that all that much anymore, cause back in the day the songs actually was the superstars. The Music Artist who made so many greats back then Jim Johnston knew what these superstars were about. When he created Undertaker’s theme he actually thought about death and thought about his own pain and bad past in life. Carlito’s old theme Jim knew his character had an apple and he spits in people’s faces cause there not cool, and Carlito is from Puerto Rico so it had to fit his style. Im actually happy Def Rebel is leaving cause if wwe some how brings back Jim Johnston you will see how much of a legend he is.
Been to a few shows, TakeOver Cardiff and Clash at the Castle 2022, and 2008 raw house show and 2000/2001 episode of nitro. Its fun to be there but obviously tv is the best for accessibility more than anything. PLEs are definitely a better option than TV.
Im not really concerned with Kayfabe outside the ring but inside is really important to me. Selling fatigue and doing everything you can to make it seem like an actual match. I think a lot of the athletics kind of get in the way of telling a good story in the ring and they look like they are executing a spot versus actually wrestling. The more you can make it seem real the easier time I have suspending my disbelief.
For the most part i'm personally not too concerned about kayfabe in terms of wrestlers hanging out together or whatever. What does tend to bother me slightly is when the same wrestlers/stories seem to be inconsistent; e.g. the wrestler posting an Instagram story about how much they hate their rival and then the very next thing they post is a pic of them together talking about how much they actually love each other. I'm fine with one or the other either way, it's just the inconsistency that bothers me
I don’t mind what the wrestlers do off screen, but on screen I think they should treat wrestling as real as possible. I hate tongue in cheek irony gimmicks like the Young Bucks (where they just reference Twitter stuff like that makes a good product) or Chris Jericho (being bad on purpose). Live promos are the standard, but something that really makes me invested are well made sit down promos backstage. When they have JR or Renee Paquette, you know it’s going to be good. Check out the one AEW put out now with Ospreay and Ricochet. Idk, I’ve only been to one show live in my life, which was the first AEW All In. I loved it. When I was watching the second this year I kept thinking I wanted to be there 😂
I dont mind when finishers don't finish the match when it's supposed to be teo top athletes facing each other, it makes sense imo. What I hate is finisher spamming like the Rollins vs MacIntyre match at WrestleMania.
Kayfabe is mixed on alive and dead. Liv and Rhea are friends in real life, but them hugging each other and supportive in real life would make the story on-screen seem less important, them staying in-character on social media really adds to the story.
While having characters breaking kayfabe isn’t the end of the world, especially if they are at work(punk and drew both being at NXT, or at a signing together), but I think it adds if they don’t seem chummy at those places as it can feel a bit…jarring. But it’s fine. On the other hand, seeing Liv all over social media and outside the show just being petty and hateful and dom obsessed is great. The best example for this is MJF and part of why so many people like him. Because the little things outside the ring all add up in the character to make it that extra 10% more that you wouldn’t have.
1. Does Kayfabe matter? - Not anymore. I watch wrestling for the art of the match now. I could care less if it appears if people really hate each other on tv, and then hang out after. I've seen photos of freddy krueger hanging out with Nancy behind the scenes on the filming of the first Nightmare movie. It's the same thing. 🤷♂️ 2. The promo styles, im not as big a fan of borderline cinema promos. But i understand why they exist. 3. Love false finishes (1, 2, ooo's), but i wish it wasnt due to so many finisher kickouts. I wish finishers were more protected across the board. 4. WWE used to have an occasional man vs woman match. They dont bother me, but i understand why it rarely happens outside of the Indie's. 5. Preferred method would still be at home. I dont mind going to a show or two here and there, but id rather be home, away from people.
Intergender wrestling is very common on the indies and in notable promotions in other countries. For the indies especially, it's almost necessary since the number of male talent heavily outweighs female talent, so women's wrestlers participate in intergender matches for the sake of more work.
Jamie Noble vs Nidia No Way Out 2004 was the first thing that came to mind for intergender match. Looking back honestly an interesting feud to say the least 😂😂 Ever since going to my 1st televised event in this years summerslam that changed my perspective. I’ve been a fan for over 15 years. Been to house shows but not a live show. The energy at sunmerslam blew everything else away. I think I heard you mention you don’t even care what seat your in you just want to be there to experience it. That’s how I feel after that experience.
In some ways, AEW is the American equivalent of new Japan pro wrestling, and the Japanese style at least in presentation. Lots of power creep, lots of finisher kick outs. The mid double lows to the mid tens was the height of this finisher creep for WWE. The apex of this was John Cena being eliminated early in an elimination chamber match by taking three or four different finishers in a row from top superstars.
Kayfabe is somewhat important. We all know it’s a show, but I don’t want Drew and Punk hanging around or Cody having a nice lunch with Solo. The best part is wondering if it’s real or not, like Punk and Seth
In a way I think kayfabe is still alive, it just evolved and now has to include the performers real lives into wrestling. I still care for it, the most enjoyable moments in wrestling are the ones you believe in the most, the ones where you don't have to ask yourself if its fictional. I think all finishers are meant to be kicked out of at some point but you have to make it important. If it happens every two matches it's not interesting for me. Also I kinda hate wrestlers being surprised after their opponents kick out of a signature like Ospreay or Cody thinking they're gonna end their match with a cutter, that never happens anymore, just hit the move then move on to the next one. I think wrestling being what it is, intergender should be happening more often, it's not real sports competition, you have guys like Darby Allin beating guys like Mortos, why wouldn't Bayley pull off a classic against Andrade? Whenever I see an intergender match I just forget about gender 2 minutes into it. I'm not asking for intergender titles in WWE or AEW but when it makes sense storywise why tf not? I thought Orange vs Statlander at All in would've been a great idea. I've been to a few shows and the energy is amazing everytime but if I had to choose I'd pick watching televised wrestling. I enjoy watching what happens in the ring more than the feeling of being in the crowd (and I was at All in 2024) to me it's more important to be as close and focused on the action as I can
The only promotion of note that isnt an indy that pushes/pushed intergender wrestling is TNA, moreso when they where impact wrestling. Ever since tessa blanchard came and went, theyve backed off of it but will do it occasionally.
1) I wouldn't be bothered by bitter rivals being friendly outside. In fact, I would assume Hangman and Swerve have become better friends since their feud together, as they've both done wonders for each other's careers as well as demonstrated a lot of trust in each other with what they put each other through in the ring. I'm also an adult and able to separate fact from fiction as well as not be mind broken by equally valid yet conflicting ideas. It helps that I've known wrestling was "fake" since I was a child. To be fair, had I been born and raised in a Hick-Town with a strong pro-wrestling tradition or newspapers that were kayfabe, localized TV/Radio and no way of finding out what happened in the very next town outside of gossip, I may well have been kayfabed. We take it for granted now due to smartphones and social media, but even up to the mid-00s, information was hard to come by. 2) I'm with ya', brother! 3) AEW's finishers are weird. But that's good in my opinion. Back in the day, a finisher was a FINISHER. Then Finishers became highspots in Wrestlemania. And then false finishers became fairly common, although generally, WWE still maintains the integrity of finishers. With AEW, they have it where Finishers are just strong moves, and even random moves or submissions can end matches. Danielson's earlier run in AEW had him finishing each match with a different move. Jericho's Judas Effect is pretty much one of the few true Finishers in AEW. There are pros and cons to this style, but overall I'm okay with it because it adds variety and even a bit of realism. At least it sets them further apart from the WWE. Consider a MMA guy. He usually wins his matches with a rear naked choke, and it's become his signature. But sometimes he wins by TKO, armbar or points. Meanwhile, the traditional Finisher has the weakness of being telegraphed and renders other signature moves pointless. No one really cares if Jericho puts someone in a Walls of Jericho or hits them with a codebreaker nowadays because they know that his finisher is the Judas Effect. Roman's spear is great for getting people hyped but they know it's just a setup for the Superman Punch. Meanwhile, Orange Cassidy can potentially win a match with a Beach Break, but it's the Orange Punch that's a sure thing. Either way, they all have to work out their matches differently based on that. Which is great because it creates more variety. 4) Competitive intergender matches have yet to work outside of things where the guy is a supposedly a wimp like a referee or a manager, or Andy Kaufman. Other than that, they've never truly worked, not even in Lucha Underground. Non-competitive intergender matches like Minoru Suzuki vs Asuka or Maki Itoh, those are great. The men lose nothing while the women gain legitimacy.
Intergender wrestling is something I feel is wildly underutilized in pro wrestling. Chyna was one of the biggest stars of the Attitude Era because she wrestled the mem at times, even won the Intercontinental Championship and was No. 1 contender to the WWE Championship. I think you need the right talent involved and in-ring style to make it fun, but it can be a different feeling to standard matches. These days, WWE and AEW avoid it entirely (though Rhea Ripley vs. Dirty Dom has to be a consideration), but GCW and TNA are known to do them often. Independent wrestling in general is more comfortable with it.
Cinematic and In ring promos are my favorites..."backstage" segments have a lower hit rate for me ... if they are not done correctly they can be cringy
Kayfabe: I'm fine with seeing out of character stuff. But what bugs me is when they reference out of character stuff IN character. It's like if Thanos started talking to Iron-man about RDJ flubbing his lines. False Finishes: A finisher should be a finisher. Intergender: My favourite promotion Lucha Underground reguarly used intergender matches. As it said in their first episode: "It's 2014. Can we move past the idea of women being helpless victims?" Which is something I agree with. Comparing two trained fighters to domestic abuse always has this unintentional ring of condescencion to it. It ends up undervaluing the skills and agency of the woman in the match and reducing her to just being a victim. Some intergender unfortunately plays into that too, really playing up "A WOMAN is trying to fight a man" like a novelty. The best ones just treat it like any other fight.
Im ngl I would be pissed if I saw two wrestlers currently fueding randomly taking pictures with each other, especially if its something Im invested in. If it's a family photo like the Bloodline or something then that's completely different because yk they're family, but if I saw a photo on Drew's instagram of him and Punk hanging out at a mall or something Id be like wtf.
The best type of Kayfabe I love seeing today is that some wrestlers would be living their gimmick outside of shows. So for example MJF from AEW would be the douche he is IRL or like Liv Morgan and Dominik Mysterio being seen in public holding hands even though the cameras weren't rolling. To a point where you can't tell if its an act or real life.
1. I feel Kayfabe in 2024 is all but dead but you can still maintain that believability and keep Kayfabe if done right. The not being seen with your opponent during a big angle is a big one. That just doesn’t look right to my eyes. A big example of keeping kayfabe in the modern day was The Undertaker. He did no interviews, wore black/dressed modestly in public, you never really got a lot out of him, his private life was unknown, etc. Growing up literally the only two things I knew about that man before I found wrestling stuff online was his name was Mark and he was from Texas. WWE did a documentary with him a few years ago where for the first time he allowed himself to open up to cameras, talk about his life and really get into who is the Undertaker. It’s one of the best things the WWE has ever done. A example of kayfabe in the territories besides that plane crash incident was Bill Watts the guy who was the owner of Mid South Wrestling territory in the 80s had a legit rule about bar fights that’s been corroborated by many people who worked there. If you were in the Mid South territory and you were in a bar and you got into a fight and you lost that fight you got fired from Mid South. The reasoning was protecting kayfabe if that guy who beat you up at the bar can now say “Yeah that wrestling is fake you see that guy I beat him up at Mckinley’s last Thursday” Your credibility as a wrestler and what you do as being physically impressive/wrestlers being imposing people is lost now. That was the extent of protecting kayfabe back in the day. 2. With kicking out of finishes it’s just way too overdone in both companies. Hope they tone it down because a lot of peoples finishers have lost a lot of meaning. They are just moves now that have to be hit over and over. A few guys have been able to keep that rule of if you get hit my mine your not kicking out but that’s lost now kinda. 3. With what we have seen with Rhea over this past year with doing smaller things with guys like isolated slams, clotheslines and other things like that totally work. I grew up in the early 2010s where it was just normal WWE wrestling on TV, got out of it and got back into it in 2022. I don’t know where this whole subsection of fans cropped up that think a full on match with a big man and a female work in any way at all. It just looks wrong in every way for that to not just be a one time slam or incident. Back in the day when Tully and Dusty were feuding Babydoll would get in the middle of it, be yelling a Dusty getting in his face and slapping him. The crowd would go crazy because Dusty would give her a look then hit her right back. That was an isolated incident that worked for example. There can be stuff done like that now, obviously don’t have a big star like a Dusty now slapping a lady, but something that is a wrestling move that you know doesn’t hurt that bad but it gets the point across. Cornette has talked some about this like you can do certain wrestling moves because in the millions and millions of domestic violence cases how many of them have involved a scoop slam? You can have Damian Priest give Liv Morgan a scoop slam or something like that that would work fine.
I do like a certain level of Kayfabe. Wrestling is a business, and they're in the business of putting butts in seats to see people who hate each other fight. I don't really go on social media so I don't see most of the wrestler's posts, but I think if they're trying to sell tickets, then hanging out with your current enemy isn't going to help. I'm fine seeing behind the scenes stuff later, but I don't want to see it in real time. I wish finishers lived up to their name and finished matches. If you don't want to end the match, don't hit your finisher, or like you said, come up with a way to prolong the match like the opponent getting their foot on the rope or rolling out of the ring, or taking too long to make the cover. Kicking out of a finisher should be saved for special occasions. If everyone's kicking out of it then your move sucks and you need a new one. Don't ruin your own gimmick. Again, this is a business, and you are the product. If you don't take your character and your feuds seriously, then why should anyone else? You're leaving money on the table.
I think it all comes down to one word: evolution. Ok, two: adaptation. Kayfabe has evolved and adapted to suit the 24/7 social media society we live in now. It doesn't _bother_ me to see kayfabe enemies hanging out outside their work, but it feels off. Undertaker has some words about it in a video. My weekly promos are either face to face in the ring or call outs, whether it's in the ring or backstage. Segments like Cody and Roman should be reserved for moments like that. grand and special. There should only be false finishes on signature moves and higher-risk spots, but a finisher should end it. Most of the time anyway, it's all about the story being told. A finisher stops being one if everyone kicks out of it all the time. Intergender matches where it's all in is a big no, but a spot like what Rhea and Dom do, or how Stephanie McMahon was receiving every move under the sun in promos, can feel great.
I prefer the Japanese view of using Kayfabe. Essentially they act as if everything is real. Okada was never seen with the Young Bucks in NJPW even though he brought them in and they are good friends. When Omega was a face and the Bucks heels they were not seen together. I do think wrestlers should be able to interact with each other off camera. If someone sees them and takes a photo I don't have an issue with that. My issue is when the wrestlers are just ignoring Kayfabe. It honestly ticks me off. If someone gets beat down one week, we shouldn't see them the next week as if nothing happened. This is one reason I prefer AEW to WWE. Too many times we see something happen in WWE were it is just ignored the next week. On the other hand, in AEW there are callbacks to things that happened 5 years ago. Everything is remembered (for the most part) and the history is respected. Some heels don't trust other heels and some faces don't trust other faces. I don't mind false finishes to an extent. However, I think finishers should be finishers. It should be incredibly rare for anyone to ever kick out of a finisher. For instance, only two people have ever kicked out of Omega's One-Winged Angel finisher. That list includes Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega when Adam Page hit him with it, so only one person kicked out for Omega. This is how it should be. Maybe there is a rope break or a save in a tag match or some other shenanigans, but once people commonly kick out of a finisher the wrestler needs a new finisher. I often think matches in AEW go one false finish too far. And a lot of the time it is pointless. The wrestler kicks out only to then be hit with something else and pinned 30 seconds later. AEW actually had one intergender tag match. It was on the second Jericho Cruise. It can be done well. I loved how Sexy Star was used in Lucha Underground. Thunder Rosa was also one of the wrestlers in LU. Essentially they built the promotion for all the talent to simply be wrestlers. Yes everyone knew some of them were women, but that really didn't matter. If I am going to go in person I want to either be at a house show or a massive PPV. (I refuse to use Vince's attempt to rebrand PPV to PLE, especially because when he did there was very little premium about WWE. It honestly was trash and was why the market was there to have a promotion like AEW enter the business.) With house shows you get all sorts of stuff happening that may never make it to TV. In fact, there were matches back in the day between massive stars that were never seen on TV. If it is a regular televised show or even one of the secondary PPV's then I would rather see it on TV. You don't have the enthusiasm of a fire crowd most of the time and you can see everything far more clearly.
The main problem with watching WWE "at home" is the amount of crowd noise/reactions/chants they add in, to manipulate how the product is presented. It's gotten worse in the last 10 years or so.
I was a little kid during the late 80s/early 90s. My Mom explained what wrestling was when I first watched it. She also told me that the only person that she had ever met who thought that wrestling was real died in the 60s. IMO 99% of wrestlers do not need to stay in character all of the time. Wrestling is a show. It's a live stunt show and soap opera. I don't expect Sylvester Stallone to be Rocky all of the time. Edit to fix autocorrect.
@@BigmanDogs I wonder where that number came from, how was the question worded, and who was surveyed (asked the question)? That percentage seems really high to me. I remember conversations with other kids during recess and nobody thought that wrestling was real. It's possible that my experience was different from other people's. I might have hung out with the 1989 version of smart marks. IDK.
Alright- let’s! When it comes to kayfabe, I don’t really care. I know its a work, we all know it’s a work, so when an image comes out or something, i don’t care. If it’s like tiktok or something, then I start to dislike it, since social media is a tool for feuds a lot of the time. I prefer in ring. I really disliked the roman cody stadium thing, felt very hokey, but in some cases, like when Rock beat up Cody in the rain, or when Hangman burnt down Romans house, it was cool. Generally though, those are very few cases. I prefer in ring segments, Hangman and Swrrve had a really good one last year before Full Gear, Ended up stabbing someone with a pen, it was really cool, and generally, it feels “realer” and more organic that way. False finishes depend. If it’s a big match, then I’m for them, but occasionally it gets to a point. Will Ospreay had a match with his partner Kyle Fletcher a while ago, and it was alright, but Fletch ate way too many Hidden Blades, and it felt unearned. Those cases are generally far and few though, most of the time, like the grand slam match for example, it feels earned and like a big moment. A lot of wrestlers have multiple finishers for this reason. If Kenny hits a V-Trigger it might keep going, but it’s over when that one winged angel comes in. Inter gender wrestling hasn’t been ever really normalized. It has happened, Chyna was the intercontinental champion, but that was more a gimmick. Some companies do it, a lot of indies, gcw, etc. I think it can work, Candice Lerae has some fucking amazing matches against the young bucks in the 2010’s but more often than not it ends up coming off weird. It can work though, aforementioned Candace Bucks matches, Baron Corbin & Becky, etc. It takes good workers though. Nothing like a live show imo. Been to like 5 wwe house shows, summerslam 22’, and most recently a dynamite and all out, and the atmosphere is actually magical, definitely outweighs not having the camera & commentary.
Chelsea green vs pentagon.....that match is 🔥🔥🔥🔥 Chelsea green would be in the world title picture if that let her be what she did in this match in wwe
The first one only bothers me if its the wrestlers themselves that post the pics, beyond that it doesnt bother me too much even it does feel kinda surreal i like the og 1 to 1. I dont know if anyones recommended CM Punk vs Mjf to you, but they have a really awesome 20 minute promo between each other. I actually have the opinion that finishers are a sort of dying concept, i almost prefer that. Its cool to have one move to end typical tv matches, but id so much prefer if more wrestlers went down the gunther route of just having a litany of moves that makes the ending more unpredictable. Inter Gender is just a gimmick, doesnt happen too often. I also dont know if anybody recommended ospreay vs omega to you, but i actually traveled 7 hours to canada to see that one, in person will always reigm supreme
In my opinion, wrestling is better when you know it's fake because it introduces the notion of layers. The layers of reality and unreality in wrestling is what makes it fascinating to me. However, wrestlers should still make an effort to maintain the illusion like MJF.
To be quite honest, I don't really care NOW. I did back in the day. You do have a point though, depends on the storyline. At the emd of the day, it's a live soap opera. It's all about suspension of disbelief. As far as promos, I love the vignettes, but the live stuff is the shit. The crowd can ruin it, but it really depends on who's talking. The face to face between, Cody, Seth, Rock amd Roman was AWESOME. False finishes, can get old and yes, I feel like there are some finishers that you simply can't kick out from, it defeats the purpose. But hey, different times. The DDT was once tmost devastating move, but it's now just MEH. Some notable intergener matches I can remember: Tiple H and Ronda Rousey WM34 and Chyna: ua-cam.com/video/QywNfKbghKE/v-deo.htmlsi=IGMvrtHte4bgVRRx I've only expreienced house shows and love them. You pretty much hit the nail on the head by saying hoise shows can be mini PLEs that din't affect the main story.
Currently GCW does intergender wrestling. It does not seem unrealistic for these women to wrestle these men as some women are the same size as the men.
I never really noticed until the Will Osprey and Kyle fletcher v c young bucks this week and the yb hit KF with what seemed like a finisher and he kicked only from them to do another move and then that’s what ended. Left me a confused and kinda annoyed
I actually have always secretly liked the idea of guys being best buds when the cameras go off. And in many cases, those kind of wrestlers usually have the best matches being that they know each other so well. My dad ruined kayfabe for me when I was 10 and told me he saw the undertaker and Kane hanging out together at the airport lol back during one of their fueds.
I preferred Kayfabe because it, intentionally or not, maintained the milieu of the wrestling world, the image that the wrestling world, or at the very least the promotion you were watching, was a real world in and of itself, and they worked to maintain that. Outside example, I know Friday the 13th is some nonsense, but I would NEVER want Jason to lift up his mask, address the viewers, and say, "Oh. Hi, marks! I'm not really deleting this dude. I'm really actor/stuntman Kane Hodder, and this is all pretend. I liked it so much better when I was a kid and you could just pretend that it was real.
As long as the job gets done when it times to get don't, I don't care about whatever else they do. Same way in like football or basketball they can hate each other on the court and hang out outside of it.
When I was a child, I genuinely believed Edge and Christian were cousins and that the Dudleys were adopted brothers. I miss that blissful ignorance in wrestling.
Patreon: www.patreon.com/dporticus
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/dporticus
Discord: discord.com/invite/MnzWwAccEY
To quote Eddie Kingston: "Just because Kayfabe is dead that doesn't mean we should piss on its grave." Yes, we all know it's fake, we know these people (usually) don't actually hate each other or want to harm each other, we know it's a soap opera, duh. But that doesn't mean I want 4th wall breaking and constant reminders that I'm watching a show. With the exception of Deadpool when you go see a superhero movie they don't have the heroes turn to the audience and say "By the way I'm hollywood movie star Chris Evans playing the role of Captain America I hope you're enjoying my character arc" mid scene.
That's really all I ask. Podcasts and social media are where shoots can live, just don't shoot on the actual programs lol.
I like when they pivot to a work to protect the show on interviews and podcasts as well. Was watching Swerve's Breakfast Club interview the other day and they were shooting about some serious and poignant topics around his life and the industry... then when his new deal came up someone asked him what he spent his bonus check on and he was like 'oh yeah, I bought my childhood home and Hanger burned that MFer down.'
The only kayfabe I really want to ensure is held up is calling wrestlers their wrestling names in public. No fan should call CM punk Phil. No fan should call Kenny Omega Tyson.
Agreed with Omega, or guys like Kevin Owens, but Punk kinda work as Phil. Probably cause Chicken Magnet Punk (or Chicago Made Punk) is obviously a stage name that sometimes Phil Brooks aint so strange. plus CM Punk like to blend keyfabe and reality.
I agree i find it disrespectful to call them by their real names if they dont use it idk them and they dont know me or have allowed it
Phil isn't punk so we shouldn't call him "CM Punk"
I think usually in AEW's finisher near falls the finisher is done little bit differently than usual. For example Ospreay's hidden blades usually doesn't get 3 counts if he hits them from front. Makes kinda sense because its not that hidden if opponent sees it! When he does it from behind he basically always gets the pin.
that is the NJPW influence. In NJPW, many wrestlers have variations of their moves that vary in strength
It's also not very realistic (talking about kayfabe), that a certain move is so much stronger than every other thing they do. If... it is a hard hitting move like a special piledriver or someone is an expert in one field and is going for his unique finisher that he ist just so good at that nobody can kick/tap out, sure. But for my taste it is too easy that the finisher of a wrestler just has to always be the end. It's also not the same in fighting, which wrestling is simulating. Sure, someone with a great hook or a high kick probably has the biggest chance to knock you out with it, but it depends on luck, strength in that moment, mindset etc. pp. Of course you shouldn't just do it arbitrarily to weaken your tools, but these pros know how to make it work. For me, it just makes it so much more exciting.
Also iirc most times opponents kick out, he hadn’t removed the elbow-pad so he wouldn’t have gotten that bone-on-bone action
Penta vs Iyo Sky, Kairi Sane and Mayu Iwatani in Lucha underground was awesome! Candice Lerae and Joey Ryan vs Young Bucks in PWG as well!
I forget the names given them in LU, but that match was great.
Wrestling is becoming more cinematic and some people don't like that. For me personally I like that they're experimenting and trying new things
I love the blend of cinema and theater
One fun way to do kayfabe is tongue-and-cheek. A fresh example is STARDOM where Toni Storm is teaming up with Mina Shirakawa, and everytime either Mina or the official STARDOM tweet about it they add a note saying "Don't tell Mariah". I prefer this playful way to do it.
We lost quite a bit with getting rid of Kayfabe, but we gained more humanity in an industry that was killing itself. The only thing I wished was more consistency, when Liv Morgan was on instagram calling out Rhea Ripley about Dom, Rhea was posting pictures about her real life marriage. Making things a bit weird. Either you continue the show on social media or you don't, just don't mix.
To add there should be two accounts for wrestlers kayfabe account and normal everyday ones.
@@UbisoftLBGTQCody used to do that. He’d have the Stardust account and then a burner for real life until it got found.
I agree but come on man. Everyone knows it’s a show and what better way to promote it than social media. The number one way to promote at that.
Personally, while i thought the Cody & Roman promo was good in content and execution, i thought it was WAY too overproduced. The music was overpowering, and the B-Roll shots basically doubled the length of the promo.
However, i loved the Hangman/Swerve promo because there was still an aspect of interaction with the crowd. You could hear them roar as they realized what was going to happen. It was awesome.
So i guess my conclusion is that i prefer some element where you can hear the crowd and theres that interaction. Without them, the promo felt a bit awkward to me.
I'm with you the cody/roman promo is so dramatic for the absolute silence it's surrounded by. These are guys who are usesd to having to be big because they gotta play to the people in the back over the screams of the crowd, it jsut doesn't work where there's closeups and mics
Inter-gender wrestling is a lot more common on the indies. Candice LeRae is one of my favorite wrestlers ever and her matches with Cedric Alexander and her tag team with Joey Ryan are some of my favorites.
I saw a match on a local indie with 2 guys 1 girl in a triple threat. In that scenario, it was impossible for the girl to be a heel
Candice was a complete bada$$ on the indies. It makes me sad to see what they have her doing now.
In tna impact eli drake now l.a. Knight left the company because he refused to be in a intergender match .
TNA still does mixed tag matches where there's no rules about women only fighting the women. Or Jordynne Grace pinning Bully Ray to win their version of a Royal Rumble last year
@@Billy2-pg3zj My view is this. Everyone knows wrestling is scripted. Therefore it doesn't matter if men wrestle women as long as both are skilled. On another note I still prefer the E-li Drake name over L A Knight.
at extreme Rules 2019, Baron Corbin hit End of Days on Becky Lynch, the crowd went quiet for a second, but lost their SHIT (in the best way) when they realized Becky was okay! (it was a mixed tag with Seth and Becky vs Corbin and Lacey Evans)
And then Corbin got sent death threats, according to his CVV interview
Lucha Underground had some absolute fire intergender matches 🔥
And the trio of Angelico/Ivelisse/Son of Havoc is forever GOAT'd.
Those were fire.
Yes, but also some not so fire ones.
I still watch wrestling in full kayfabe. Idc about who they are outside of the ring. It's much more fun that way, for me.
I enjoy some of the more cinematic promos, they remind me of the old vignettes from back in the day, but I don’t think they should happen often.
I think if I saw a photo of Adam Page and Shane Strickland having lunch, it would dispel a bit of the illusion. However, if I were to hear a story that they were actually great friends and hangman was at swerve's real housewarming wouldn't surprise me at all. It is obvious that working such risky spots takes an extreme trust and I can't imagine that it is purely professional respect in isolation.
What also spoils the feel is petty twitter beef. Sometimes real antagonism looks childish and defangs the in-ring threat.
Kayfabe doesn’t matter anymore to me. But too the guys who keep kayfabe and character in tact earn my respect.
Examples rn for me are the outrunners, MJF, The WWE (Hey man it’s hard making sure heels and faces aren’t together in public)
I never understood the keeping kayfabe thing. They're actors
@@philo2189this is pretty much my take. I don’t care about this because I can see Robert Pattinson and Colin Farrell hanging out on set of The Batman for example and nobody thinks it harms the movie.
@@philo2189 method actors are a thing, though ;)
Kayfabe: I like the behind-the-scenes photos and stories. Like you said, it's like watching a blooper reel from a movie, where the actor playing the villain is friends with the hero. Just don't call wrestlers by their real names - we know CM Punk, we don't know Phil Brooks.
Finishers: I adjust my expectations based on the promotion. If I'm watching WWE, I generally expect a finisher to end a match (except, as you mentioned, the Cross-Rhodes which doesn't really work unless Cody hits it 2-3 times). If I'm watching AEW or New Japan, I expect false finishes, and I expect people to have multiple finishers. One of the things I love about wrestlers like Will Ospreay and Bryan Danielson is that any one of 5 moves for them can end a match, and it's part of the story they're telling as to which one works. Sometimes it's power-scaling, like Ospreay using the Tiger Driver as his last resort against another S-tier wrestler, and sometimes it's psychology, like Danielson using the Busaiku as a general finisher and submission finishers like the heel hook or Lebell Lock on wrestlers who are bigger and might not go down with a strike.
Intergender Wrestling: This is something that is completely normal and accepted (for the most part) on the indies. It's presented as a normal match, no matter the size of the woman in question. Wrestlers like Candice LeRae, Athena, Ruby Soho, and Billie Starkz have wrestled (and beaten!) men much bigger than them the same way a smaller male wrestler can beat a larger male wrestler. Saying that intergender wrestling = domestic violence is kind of gross and demeans actual survivors of DV. Wrestling is a consensual performance between two people, it is not domestic violence.
Shows: For PPVs/PLEs, I'd rather watch them at home. Seats might not be great, huge crowds are a lot. House shows are fine, I'd rather go to a WWE house show than a TV taping or PLE. My favorite shows to go to are Dynamite/Collision, AEW's tv shows/tapings are really great, worth the price but still cheaper than WWE, and you get some really quality matches.
You just need to watch 80s and 90s All Japan Pro Wrestling mens and womens. Then you can have your spirtitual wrestling awakening
Holy crap. The women's AJPW in the 90's is the greatest era ever for women. Manami Toyota, Akira Hokuto, Aja Kong, Inoue, Shimoda, and more. Just incredible (not to be confused with the wrestler of the same name).
@@rriggs6547 You're absolutely right. it's quite surreal how ahead of the game all Japan was in both the 80s and 90s In both men's and women's wrestling.
Manami Toyota is my favorite! I also really enjoyed Dynamite Kansai, Shinobu Kandori and Many others! At least 200+ incredible wrestlers from that era alone.
I always want new fans to discover AJPW, cause it really does change you.
@@NecroericUA-cam I feel like the late 80's was the high point for All Japan men and the early to mid 90's for the women. There were absolutely some outstanding wrestlers, matches, and stories. It certainly is not WWE style or even WCW or ECW, but if people can get past what they are used to seeing it was incredible.
Intergender matches still happen all the time on the indie's. Some great PWG matches with Candice LaRae getting her shit kicked in by the bucks.
LU had a lot of great Intergender matches. They are still done all the time in Japan. For instance Saki Arai (AKA Sakisama) is signed to DDT which is a men's promotion and she wrestles there often. She also works for TJPW the women's sister promotion. Or you have someone like Miu Yamashita or Syuri who are trained fighters in MMA and absolutely look the part. They can and do keep up with men.
I was on the indie circuit myself during the early 2000s, so some of my answers will derive from what I learned and experienced on there.
Regarding kayfabe, while I’m totally okay with seeing and hearing about stuff behind the scenes, I do wish there was a little more consistency when it comes to social media posts. When I was wrestling myself, a lot of the older generation most definitely expected us to keep up kayfabe 100%, but the workers my age didn’t really care for all the secrecy & special terminology. At one point, the social media handling of our company was left up to me, and I determined that the best way to handle it was for each wrestler to have two separate accounts. One for their character, and one for their real life. That way, if they wanted to show bts stuff, that could be on their personal page, but then anything story related stayed on the character page. I do wish it would still be like that, because it can be somewhat counterintuitive when their pages are a mix of both, and sometimes they’re in character, then sometimes they’re not. Like, you wouldn’t see Robert Downey Jr suddenly post like he’s a Tony Stark.
When it comes to inter-gender matches, well, we pretty much had to allow full-blown matches because most of the time, there was only 1-2 women on a roster worth 10-20 guys. I’m a small guy, especially compared to most wrestlers. I’m only 5’2”, often times, the 1-2 women we had on the roster were pretty close to me size and/or weight, so I would advocate for them wrestling against me to help get them started. Even in those matches, tho, I still treated it similar to what you described, in that it was far more grapples than it was strikes, plus the limited strikes might just be to the torso or legs. When it comes to WWE, though, I do understand that it should be very limited due to how it can look. They should definitely keep it in similar weight/size classes if/when it happens. Someone like Rhea or Nia taking on the average size men should be okay in moderation, but I’d never want to see a smaller woman like Alexa taking on a larger guy like Bronson Reed.
As for live shows, I’m in South MS, so I don’t get many opportunities around here. Mostly have to travel to New Orleans for better shows now, and I’d prefer it be an aired show, even if it’s just the filler type of Raw or Smackdown. I keep hoping for another PLE in New Orleans, because it’s been a while since they’ve had one there!
Great discussion points!
Kayfabe:
I think the problem is over exposure of wrestler. I think fans can go overboard an not respect their personal space. But I'm also fine with seeing feuding wrestler hangout. It would be cool if they can avoid that until the feud is done or address it and make it part of the story like they were just being professional.
Favorite promo type: Twitter. I like seeing Drew take picture with Jack Perry more than a 4K, big budget cinematic. I feel like when they make it too cinematic it starts to feel artificial. Kinda like how I wouldn't want to watch that in middle of a theater performance.
False Finishers: I agree with you. But also I like finishers being built up. Like show someone practicing Ankle lock and show that that specific ankle lock is better that everyone else's. I like how they built up Osprey's Tiger Driver recently. I'm okay with him doing cross rhodes and failing because he doesn't know how to. But Cody's finisher needs to be sold more. I also want to see finishers be used less. Like have Cody win with Cody Cutter or something and only bring Cross Rhodes when absolutely necessary and then have him win.
Intergender:
Yeah. I agree. Strikes feels off. But I don't want to see intergender wrestling in WWE specifically. At least not now. Because of their history of how they treated women. It's easy to say that was Vince but I don't think a person can away with that level of awful without a network of creeps. Those creeps are still there because they weren't weeded out. Of course Idk for sure. No one does but why take the risk at all. I want wrestlers to be protected.
Live show vs on tv:
At the show. But my favorite expereince has been at indy wrestling where you are up close. PLEs are great but I've had some awful seats where you don't even get a good view of the screen.
I think kayfabe is still important in the sense that I want to believe no matter the act, serious,comedic, and inbetween, in the confines of wrestling is actually that person. For the example of Punk and Drew, Hangman and Swerve, the behind the scenes doesnt shatter too much for me as an adult if I were to see them backstage together, I know its predetermined. But if on the show I'm watching im able to believe that they would do this or that then I'm good!
For promos, i prefer the ones in the ring personally. I typically do enjoy the regular backstage and the theatrical backstage ones as well, but even if the crowd is ruining a promo it gives more freedom to the wrestler to play off the crowd and stuff like that. The crowd for live promos can alter a live promo either good or bad but i enjoy that aspect of pro wrestling. The crowd is actively akways part of the show.
False finishes i dont typically mind. "Finishers" the term i believe came from the games more so thats why i prefer the term signature moves because there not implication of it being the end. I feel in wrestling nowadays, due to the amount of false finishes, it behooves the wrestler have more than one big move so that you can kinda have that move you protect more than the other. There are still some solid examples of finishers being protected in the biz, i think Baron Corbin's End of Days has only been kicked out of a couple times i believe, and Kenny Omega's One Winged Angel famously has "never" been kicked out of (i think besides a couple times in japan).
To me, i dont mind intergender wrestling. I understand the notion that it could remind you of DV but to me that is reinforcing the idea that a woman in this type of sport are not as strong as the men. Not saying you think that or anything, but that preconceived idea that a man striking a woman is assault when within the confines of the sport of professional wrestling, they wouldnt approach wrestling a woman differently than a man, it is an opponent in the ring. If you think of the woman or anyone as an equal competitor in the ring, there is no issue to the strikes as there are mant heavy hitting, violent women in wrestling.
In person is just so awesome. I love watching a show on tv with the added things and commentary but live kicks so much ass. Especially AEW, you can always count on the in ring action happening is gonna rock. Ive never been to a stadium, and i could see that maybe being less fun depending on seat viewing and stuff but an arena is always awesome.
This is just how i feel about the questions and is in no reality the absolute correct way of thinking or anything; just how i feel about things. Its always okay to like what you like and if thats not how you like to think of stuff thats okay! Wrestling rocks, support wrestling forever!
Also some stuff maybe not be accurate this was off the dome and not looked into a bit lmao
The term “finish/finisher” has been around much longer than games, it’s a genuine pro wrestling term. That’s why you always hear the old school guys say things “go out there give me 7-8 minutes hit your finish and go home.” Honestly from what I remember signature move is more as video game term
@@ChunkyKong-47 ah must have gotten them mixed! Appreciate the information!
On finishers and near falls, I've always preferred the mentality that any move could end a match. A wrestler just having a collection of moves they've mastered, where some are to wear the other guy down, and some are these big haymakers with the intent of finishing the match, and it's just a question of how many times they need to hit the other guy before they can't get up.
Eddie Kingston and Walter do this exceptionally well. They just don't have finishers. They have a collection of strikes, grapples and holds to wear the other guy down, and then they've got big power moves. How many powerbombs, strikes to the head, piledrivers, top rope splashes, will it take to end the other guy.
But wrestling is a variety show, and it's only special if it's not every match. So the counter point is those moves that are very hard to pull off, so you need to wear the other guy down first, but ALWAYS end the match. One Winged Angel and Stormbreaker being 2 of the best examples, but you could also throw in a lot of the high flyer moves, that the set up time needed makes it easier to counter, but if it works it wins. Styles Clash was like that for a long time, Tombstone definitely.
Samoa Joe's Muscle Buster, for a long time Joe wouldn't even attempt a pin for any of his offence unless he'd hit the Muscle Buster where he's definitely going to get a 3. The complexity and likelihood of a reversal being used, rather than hitting the move and having them kick out.
Thats the 2 ends of the spectrum, and I have no issues with either. It's the ones in the middle where things get more awkward. The guys who only have one finisher that gets kicked out of all the time, so it's not really a good finisher. The complex to set up moves that never get countered, and often get kicked out of, like why would you go to that much trouble if you don't know it will end the match?
for the larger promotions like wwe or aew the TV adaptation is undeniably the objective better viewing method, but man seeing a good indie match kive and participating individually to the match eith chants. Thats electric
Personally it's prerecorded promos, you already mentioned the house fire and the football field but just a simple one that really helped was the recent Monster vs Monster in Last Monster Standing on RAW. I've been enjoying that fued with Bronson Reed and Braun Strowman and seeing this promo of each in the city recking building really playing on the Godzilla vs Kong aspect and I absolutely loved it. It's not easy to do a promo like that but when it's pulled off well it's great.
Honestly, as far as kayfabe and finishers go, I would say it depends on the promotion. I tend to view each promotion as its own contained world vs having a generally shared idea of wrestling. For example, promotions in japan like All Japan, New Japan and Pro Wrestling Noah have wrestlers that have multiple finishers and finisher variations. These finishers arent all equal though, wrestlers may kick out of V-Triggers and Destinos but no one kicks out of Kobashi's Burning Hammer. This is because out of his 4-5 finishers, the Burning Hammer is a Super Finisher, similar to anime and video games, where characters will have an ability that they rarely use and will guarantee the win. The same thing applies to kayfabe in other companies, it depends on how serious the promotion takes itself, as most companies have a specific brand of wrestling they focus on, sort of like a genre or niche. In the territory days, it sometimes helped that some of these blood feuds were created from real world issues between wrestlers. In my opinion it depends on the stakes of the matches in question, but i'm sure the wrestlers can come up with a creative reason they were seem together.
Please collaborate with former WWE wrestler turned youtuber Maven Huffman. He answers wrestling q and a especially related to backstage going on. I am sure he would be happy yo answer your questions regarding wrestling
1. Kayfabe is an interesting concept to me. I appreciate wrestlers like MJF who keep kayfabe but I also love to see wrestlers being themselves outside of the product. I think I feel the same as you where it is like seeing an actor behind the scenes. We have pretty much passed the point where most people know it's a performance and these are athletes protecting each other. I don't mind knowing that these two people who have to have immense trust in each other hang out or communicate outside of their work.
2. I like the cinematic promos/matches and believe that they push the medium forward. I also agree that they are better in moderation and I would not necessarily want every promo or match to be cinematic. I don't know which one is more effective to me because it very much depends on the feud and promo in question.
3. I don't mind false finishes but I agree that to me, when you kick out of someone's finisher, it can kind of hurts the move. There's a reason almost no one kicked out of the One Winged Angel or the End of Days for years. It makes the move feel stronger and when someone does kick out of it, it feels significant. If someone kicks out of your finisher all the time, it's not a finishing move. It's another signature move. I also think there are just too many false finishes in general. One or two is fine but more than that is excessive.
4. I don't mind intergender wrestling. It's the same as any other style for me. As long as the wrestlers are able to protect each other and put on a good match, I have absolutely no problem with wrestlers wrestling whoever they want to.
God this turned into a longer comment than I meant it to be but I love answering questions like this.
I enjoy watching it at home with my friends more than being there in person, but occasionally like for a very special event it is more hype in person. But that's, because it is so rare :)
1. 90-10
2. Protected finishers are a rare thing nowadays in all companies honestly. The One Winged Angel and the Buckshot Lariat are the few things that come to mind that actually finish a match.
3. Never was. Only DDT and Indy promotions actually do that stuff.
4. 50-50. Stadium shows I’d rather watch on TV. Weekly shows I would go to more often
I don’t really mind inter gender matches because I know that they both agree to do the things in the match
They don't bother me at all as long as both wrestlers know what they are doing.
During the "Attirude Era"there was a female wrestler named Chyna who challenged the male wrestlers. She was the first woman to participate in the Royal Rumble, and the only woman to have held the Intercontinental Title (and she did it twice). I would recommend watching her "Good Housekeeping" match with Jeff Jarrett from 1999.
1. I don’t need them to hate each other outside of wrestling, but it does help when they do. Same with staying in character 24/7 like MJF
2. Cinematic promos like that need to be rare. Part of the appeal of wrestling matches and promos is the fact that they only get one take and if they mess up, everyone sees it. Also, the reason they did the promo like that is because they need to work around Roman’s schedule.
3. It depends on how big the match is. If it’s Seth Rollins vs Ludwig Kaiser on Raw, one stomp should do the trick. But Seth should use multiple stomps if he’s facing Cody at Wrestlemania. Also, I’m not a huge fan of Kenny Omega, but I do respect that his finisher is not kicked out of.
4. Chyna won the IC title in the 90s. I actually want Rhea Ripley vs Dominic Mysterio at Wrestlemania and I agree, strikes should be avoided because of the similarities to domestic violence. But I would be ok with grapples and wrestling moves, or a heel man putting on a cocky submission for heat.
5. The atmosphere is important to me.
Liv and Dom always keep kayfabe outside the ring, even before their current storyline. That’s why the pairing works with them in particular. They are incredible at staying in character. I suggest watching their old interviews throughout their careers.
1. "How do you feel about wresters in a feud being seen acting friendly together?" I think at this point it doesn't matter. Everybody knows it's not real. I think the biggest thing keeping Kayfabe alive now are wrestlers still choosing to do interviews in-character (MJF interviews, Christian's interview with CVV, etc.). But some wrestlers see it differently. Dominik Mysterio was on Logan Paul's podcast a little while ago and was visibly uncomfortable being asked to choose between Rhea and his wife. It really depends on the guys involved. I don't care if I see Roman and Cody doing press together, but I admit it'd be a bit surprising even in today's age if the same happened with Hangman and Swerve.
2. The effectiveness of a promo should not be based on environment or the effects but solely whether or not the crowd is invested. As long as each character is saying something that makes sense for where they are at that point in time, and they're saying something they're motivated to say, then it doesn't matter to me. MJF/Punk promos could've been recorded in the middle of a Starbucks and I'd think of it the same.
3. Finishers need a massive overhaul in protection. Scott Hall would specifically not hit the Razor's Edge if he knew he was booked to lose. The End of Days has only been kicked out of once. The One Winged Angel has only been kicked out of 3 times (and 2 of those were Kenny himself). That being said, finishers might not even be the problem. Take Cole/Gargano at Takeover NY. You could keep every finisher and huge spot in that match. Just don't go for the pinfalls. Take the time to gloat and heel it up and show dominance while giving the face recovery time, and THEN they comeback. It starts to devalue non-finisher moves if guys are just kicking out all the time. You could take that Cole/Gargano match and take out 3 pin attempts from ANYWHERE in the match and the drama remains the same.
4. The last real intergender program was probably when Chyna was wrestling because she was simply more skilled in the ring and more physically imposing than most other women of her time. Most intergender spots now are for Rumbles (Beth Phoenix in 2010, Nia Jax in 2022). It's much more common in the superindies. Candice LeRae had a lot of intergender maches in ROH and PWG. Ivelisse Velez had BANGERS with guys in Lucha Underground. It's not very common nowadays because it's very hard to pitch to advertisers "Oh yeah and then we're gonna have two of our guys powerbomb this woman through the announce table" or anything similar to that. That being said I think someone like Rhea Ripley who has had so much recognition from non-wrestling fans that they could put her in a match with safe hands like Rey or Miz and I don't think the average person would bat an eye.
5. In-person really depends on your seats. If you're in the first few rows then you're seeing everything. If you're up in the nosebleeds then you paid extra to have to crane your neck up and watch the overhead screens or the titantron to see whats going on, which will have the same angles and editing as the TV feed. That being said, the vibe in person was just different. I was in attendance for the Pipe Bomb, and they taped next weeks Raw right afterward, and the attitude of the crowd during the second show is unlike anything I'd experienced up to that point.
The type of promo for me purely depends on the story being told. Certain stories call for certain types of promos, whether its a big cinematic scene or a post match interaction
Fan since 2002.
I literally just view the wrestlers like actors in a movie. Outside of work, they are just people. I can suspend my disbelief that they hate each other on TV much like two actors would.
Although I do respect the wrestlers who actively try to keep kayfabe just because that takes a lot of commitment.
With regards to the kayfabe q, for me it doesn't detract if they don't maintain it, it's hard to in these times. But, if a wrestler does, to me they're going the extra mile, they're paying homage to the past and I think that's awesome. Watch the recentish Christian Cage on Chris Van Vilet, he's blurring the lining between his real life persona and his in ring persona
The false finish thing is really dependent on who is doing it and what the story is. Ive seen some matches where the false finishes feel pointless and forced but ive seen others where each false fall elevated the matches
Its like match stipulation. A hell in a cell is a great feud ender but you dont want to see it every week.
it's extremely easy to differentiate character vs person when you don't use social media because im not thinking about "is this rhea ripley saying it or is it demi bennet" when i see a post or something
about the finishers: i enjoy how it is now in WWE, back in the golden era(maybe and probably later too) it was the finisher finished the match(im no expert so maybe there was occasion where people did kick out, but it was probably very rare.) there's nothing exciting after a finisher is pulled off if that means its an automatic win, the way it is now, sometimes a finisher is the end, sometimes it get reversed, sometimes they kick out. I don't feel as if finishers look weak in the current state of WWE, i think it makes the superstars look stronger. you mentioned cody, i think he needs to make the disaster kick his main finisher, imo it's his strongest signature/finisher, and move the cross rhodes to a signature move.
Vince McMahon had a street fight against Stephanie 6 days before hers and Paul's real life wedding
For the going vs staying home question it depends where you live most of the time.
I am blessed to be in a place where i can go to new York, Baltimore,Philly or DC. The crowds in those places are always electric and a blast to be around so im going every time.
Meanwhile if you are in the middle of nowhere and the fans are known to be more tempered and potentially quiet then id stay home more tha not.
I think of them more as "signature maneuvers" than "finishers". The finish shouldn't always be dependent on hitting a particular move every time anyways, right? You can always depend on that surprise roll up!
Not only do I think finishers should live up to their name and finish matches more often, wrestler's signature spots that always seem to be kick outs should also be alternate finishers that sometimes get them wins on tv. If Sami Zayn pinned someone with a blue thunder bomb more than once every 5 years, his suprise at people kicking out wouldn't be as stupid.
1. Whatever measure of kayfabe a performer wants to put out there is fine by me. In the end it's up to the fans to sort of police their own enjoyment of kayfabe at this point. I don't follow any wrestlers on social media because I think in kayfabe social media can be silly (although the Rhea/Dom stuff has been great from what I've seen, as has Drew's stuff lately), but if I were the type that didn't want to see behind the curtain, I'd avoid looking behind that curtain.
2. To me, those things are less promos and more like angles. That could be splitting hairs, but my old school self always viewed either one guy in the back talking straight to the camera,or one or more guys in the ring waxing philosophically to one another and the crowd is more of a promo. I liked the Hangman bit because it felt raw and real to an extent, whereas I felt like the Cody/Roman stuff was a bit too verbose, over produced, and on the nose with metaphors (did they really have to play a song called "eye of the storm" while they're meeting on neutral ground? Did they have to play a song at all?). I prefer the backstage, looking straight down the lens, maybe accompanied by an interview style of promo though. It lets me know how talented someone is on the microphone and if they're good, that can get me more invested than a hype package for meeting on a football field or even lighting your opponent's house on fire.
3. I feel like I could write an essay on the psychology and origins of false finishes, from roots in the Kings Road style where career ending moves were invented, adapted to, and modified over time, to WWE where Wrestlemania kind of innovated the big kick out moment on the grandest stage. I'm of two minds when it comes to it though. I do think AEW does it too often...as in like...weekly, but at the same time most of the moves being kicked out of aren't sole or primary finishers. Ospreay has like 4 finishers in his arsenal, some of which have devolved into signature moves, which is something you'll see all over wrestling, but the Tiger Driver 91 is the killer. It is protected, just like Omega's One-Winged Angel. People just don't kick out of those. There are certain moves that are definitive match enders, whereas there are others that are "common" spammable ones like Hidden Blade, The V-Trigger, the Oscutter, or even Cross Rhodes. I do hope wrestling evolves past regularly used definitive match enders at some point and that we'll see more common B-grade "TV finishers" while something like the Tiger Driver 91 becomes a unicorn that's whipped out for big PPV/PLE matches to deliver a definitive kill shot because it's too demoralizing and dangerous to hit on the regular. THAT would be protecting true finishers, and it's not a novel or new idea.
4. Intergender was dabbled with in both WCW and WWF during the Attitude Era. Talents like Madusa, Jacqueline, and Chyna held men's titles. You could arguably go all the way back to Memphis where Andy Kaufman was the king of intergender wrestling and Memphis. I'd debate how respectable any of those reigns were treated, but it's something that happened basically everywhere in wrestling at some point or another. I'd say in the 2010's it became common on the indies as well with tandems like Candice LeRae and Joey Ryan, LuFisto and Sexxxy Eddy, Kings of Wrestling with Sara Del Ray, and even random encounters in Japan like Asuka and Kenny Omega. Chikara Pro had a women as their world champion and plenty interacting with men in tag and trios action. Lucha Underground had trios champions that were intergender, and a handful of intergender matches on their programming in both singles and tag action. Lucha libre in general never truly shied away from intergender action. It's not the taboo people like to pretend it is, but I do get the sponsorship argument and I do understand that major promotions don't want it on their heads when big bro beats up little sister and blames it on their programming, but it's still prevalent on the indies and outside of the U.S. I remember seeing clips of Maki Itoh vs Minoru Suzuki of all things not that long ago, and she tags with guys all the time in the U.S. and Japan. I think it is worth mentioning that domestic violence can go both ways as well, so if one depiction of a sex hitting another is bad then none of it should be allowed on television.
5. I'm a homebody and I like gathering with friends to watch on TV. Live can be fun, and I've been part of big moments live, but I think I prefer watching on TV. Live indies though? That's a whole other story. I get way more out of that and way more bang for my buck going to indies live.
With the Cody and Roman promo, I think the main reason they did that is because you have two top babyfaces and the crowd will naturally favor one person over the other. So, I think WWE wanting to avoid the possibility of one of them being booed in favor of the other. So in that case, I didn’t mind the cinematic video package promos
Asuka and that absolute menace Minoru Suzuki had an inter gender match ( or some form of one) and it was brutal. Like a lot worse than a stiff match between two men. While it did prove Asuka is one of the best wrestlers in this generation and showcase just how merciless Suzuki is while also gaining a lot of respect from fans and performers alike, matches like that are probably why they aren’t very common in mainstream wrestling. Now obviously an inter gender match doesn’t have to be as brutal as that one was but I think it’s the idea that it would make a lot of people uncomfortable to see.
To be fair Asuka asked Suzuki to treat it like a shoot and not to hold back and act like Minoru just snapped. Minoru was understandably reluctant to do it but Asuka was the booker/promoter of the show and the one paying Minoru
@@phillipseaton9389 True. But a lot of people didn’t know that for a while. And if something like that were ever to be done in WWE or AEW the initial reaction from the crowd and even people at home would be pretty shocked. Even if details revealed later that make it more understandable, the initial reaction would go a long way. I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing that Asuka had that matched booked. It’s certainly an interesting perspective into the mindset and characters of both Suzuki and Asuka, but also an interesting perspective into pro wrestling itself and the history people don’t know. I’m just saying that there’s a reason why that kind of match wouldn’t ever happen in any major promotion even if everyone involved is on board.
First question: I don’t mind if I see two actors that are enemies on a show together, so I also don’t mind wrestlers hanging out outside of a wrestling event. Like if it’s an event that’s like a “meet the wrestlers” thing, then yeah they should maintain their characters.
Second question: the best is the cinema style, but it’s best because it doesn’t get used a lot. If it were weekly, it would kill itself very quickly. In a week to week deal, getting in the ring is definitely the best route.
False finishes is something that I wish were used less often in AEW. As far as I can remember, there’s been so few kick outs of the One-Winged Angel that you can count on one hand, so when someone kicks out of that, that would be huge. But, and don’t get me wrong I love Okada, but why does it feel like it takes 4 Rainmakers to put anyone down?
Intergender I’m not sure of, but usually it’s acceptable only if the man gets his ass kicked and I can understand why. There was an infamous match between Kana (now Asuka) and Suzuki, if I recall correctly, where Suzuki beat the absolute shit out of Kana. I feel like it could work, but it would need to be introduced slowly and considerately. I will say that, because intergender is so uncommon, it feels like a great way for a heel to get nuclear heat by attacking a woman. I also cannot for the life of me remember the match or context but I remember a match where Lita was being a royal pain in the ass for the face that was wrestling Edge (honestly I wanna say it was Cena but I don’t remember) and she was put through a table before the end of the match and I remember the crowd EXPLODING for the moment. Biggest pop of the match.
I’d rather watch on TV instead of in person unless I have really close seats. Last time I went to a show I felt like it was much worse than just watching on TV because I was a few rows up and couldn’t see much.
in THAT sense i believe.. yes... kayfabe has been dead ..for a WHILE.. ((yea... even tho A LOT of wrestlers use social media to fuel their feud))
Watching wrestling as an adult now..I don't care for Kayfabe. I love seeing the wrestlers chilling and enjoying themselves, its a testament to how good they are with their personas. Like seeing Nia Jax be super mean on camera but seeing how sweet she is behind the scenes is really cool to me. Off screen promos are cool because they can have the atmosphere they want, and also we won't get "what" chants! False finishes are cool, I wished they would win matches with different moves though just to throw us off. Like some moves like Andrade's elbow looks like it will kill you...but he never wins with it. Give us some wins with these other moves sometimes so we don't always need to see the actual finisher be the end all. Not too big a fan of the intergender thing, I read someone's comment about how women aren't valued enough to fight with the guys but I think its that they are good enough to stand on their own! I also notice that the guys work at a faster pace, the women kind of seem like they are performing together where as the guys seem like they are really going at it so I'm not sure how those styles would mesh. I'd like to see wrestling live at least once, but I like tv. I like to not see a run in, and be able to see all the action. I'm assuming having the wrong seats will cause you to miss a lot!
Tna has frequent intergender matches and mixed tag team matches
Alright, so in regards to kayfabe, I sometimes feel it depends on the situation. (Hi, indie wrestler from Australia here). Obviously if two people are in a vicious blood feud, I don't wanna see them being all buddy-buddy out in public. That said, *especially* at shows, I still insist on keeping some level of kayfabe. At shows, even when I'm meeting people either during intermission or after the show, I still keep up the act, don't go talking to other workers that I'm supposed to be against. That said, while working my day job the other day, one of the other workers came into the store I was doing security at (he works next door) and a few fans saw us chatting, despite me being a face and him being a heel. We didn't start acting like we hated each other then and there. (We did joke that we were totally just getting ready to fight each other). I think some small amount of kayfabe should be kept, but let's not go as overboard as they did in the old days.
I really have no strong opinion one way or the other on promos, but to be fair, I'm not too good at promos (thankfully my gimmick is sold by my size, not my words). Personally, I prefer doing pre-recorded promos just because if there's a mistake, I can either re-take it or edit it out (my pre-recorded promos tend to be very heavily edited).
Alright, now the finisher question is literally the only reason I wanted to comment. For years even before I started wrestling, I have *hated* with a burning passion, the overuse of false finishes. A good false finish at the right time in the right match is great. Look at the false finishes in some of The Undertaker's WreslteMania matches against Shawn Michaels and Triple H, they are things of beauty. But nowadays, when every other match on the undercard has each guy hitting their finish and the other guy kicking out and they make the same stupid expression every time, it just gets tiring and makes the actual finish mean nothing. That's why I love what Baron Corbin did with the End of Days, where still to this day, the only person to have ever kicked out of it is Drew McIntyre at WrestleMania. And not early days Chosen One or 3MB Drew McIntyre, but former 2-time WWE Champion about to go into more main event feuds Drew McIntyre.
Like, as you said, there are other ways to use someone's finisher to not end the match, maybe they hit it too close to the ropes and they have time to roll out, maybe someone breaks it up, or hell, my favourite finish to use is the old "A tries to hit their finish, B reverses and goes to hit their finish, A reverses and hits their finish this time".
Was there a time intergender wrestling was a normal thing? Uhhhh..... women used to be on the same level as little people in wrestling. Andy Kaufman made wrestling women his whole thing as part of his shows. Honestly, I love that intergender wrestling has become more of a thing, though to be fair, in my local promotion we mainly have intergender matches because we don't really have enough women to have a whole separate division.
I can't really comment on the different experiences. I had been wrestling for 3 years before I was ever just in the audience for a wrestling show, and I've only been to independent wrestling shows. I'm from a city that never had wrestling until just before I started (and I didn't even know about them because the old owner wasn't exactly great at advertising), other than that we just had WWE on TV. (Also TNA, but they had the worst time slots, so I didn't really get to watch much of that). Even when WWE have come to Australia, like for Elimination Chamber in Perth, I didn't get to go because the tickets to the show would have been the cheapest part. It was about $2000 just for one flight to Perth.
With the kayfabe question the only time it puts me off is when it is inconsistent. For example if Drew was the one who shared that picture with Punk on social media that would annoy me. The reason being is Drew himself is using social media to further the feud and acting "in character". In a similar way having Orange Cassidy in a serious match do the lazy shin kicks and then someone really selling them is dumb but in a comedy match it is fine. Him doing it and then it being no sold would make sense. Sometimes I wish that wrestlers could/would have a kayfabe account and a separate one for the person behind the character.
Hit the nail on the head with the balance of types of promos being needed. However if it had to be one or the other the ones in the ring would have to be the one to do. Those theatrical promos do hit harder but that's because they are sparse. Fans do ruin a lot of moments by going way too far with the boos, singing, and drowning things out too which really sucks.
Late kickouts are cool but false finishes (late kick outs to finshes) they suck now because of overuse. Finishers need to be protected again. Three crossroads to beat Roman was great but it was immediately undercut when it was done again so soon after. What I would actually like to see is matches being won using more "signature" and regular moves. Kick outs of finishers should be used only at major PPVs for the most part and even then not on every match. If something is done in the undercard it takes away from the main event etc. The only other time would be to tell a story. Like someone could keep failing to put people away or a particular opponent using their finisher and so they have to come up with a new one. Their old one gets retired for a while, years even. Then one day they are in the main event at say WrestleMania and nothing is working and then they pull out their old finisher and the crowd will go nuts.
Look at The Undertaker for example. He had the chokeslam, tombstone, and last ride. If you kick out of a chokeslam ok but a whole of something like 10 or so people kicked out of the Tombstone.
With intergender matches they aren't common with the bigger promotions these days. You do get the occasional thing where some women attack some men. Rhea going after Dom, Nia entering the men's Royal Rumble. She took a few of the guy's finishers including taking an RKO. That got a huge pop. That was only 5 years ago. Beth Phoenix and Kharma (Awesome Kong) also were in the Men's Rumble before there was a women's one. Also of course Chyna was in two but she basically only fought men until really late in 2000 and then after she left WWF she went back to fighting men again for the rest of her relatively short career.
I loved the matches in Lucha Underground between Penta and the Black Lotus Triad.
I went to one House Show in Australia for WWE. In retrospect it was a better card than the latest PLE we had if you just go by who was on it. Sure the matches were lighter and they weren't special like the Elimination Chamber but man the card was solid. I mean we had everyone from Charlotte and Bayley, to Roman, Daniel Bryan, Luke Harper (Brodie Lee), the Kabuki Warriors, The IIconics... and plenty more. That same year I saw a NJPW show that was in Melbourne and there I saw Okada, Will Ospraey, GoD (Tama Tonga and Tonga Loa), Tanahasi, Jay White... and more. More recently I went to World Series Wrestling indie show and that blew my mind with how much access you got to the stars, I mean they all had booths selling merch and stuff. I mean yeah it is an "indie" show but there were a bunch of big ex-WWE names. Names who are on TNA and may return to WWE at any point.
I've never had the opportunity to attend a TV episode or PPV for a major western promotion. I will be going to AEW Grand Slam in Brisbane though. For the price and where I am sitting I think the other shows are probably worth it more. But I guess I'll find out next year. I feel it is something I have to experience at least once just for the atmosphere. If I could I'd like to attend something like a WrestleMania even if it is in the cheap seats.
Invisible Stan Vs Invisible Man is my favourite level of kayfabe: as long as the audience is totally bought in, that's what really matters. Including me, watching at home. That's what matters.
To me, kayfabe matters more in the sense of verisimilitude. i.e. I want a match to look like a real contest without too many moves being obviously cooperative or contrived.
I understand that real fights/mma look different, but it's still possible to make a pro wrestling match look legit without losing the drama and showmanship. It also bothers me when there backstage segments that seemingly ignore the camera. The roman/cody georgia tech segment bugged me a bit for that reason since crew should have been visible with how many angle changes they made, but I can excuse that one for the sake of being cinematic.
I appreciate Wrestlers who do shoot outside interviews keeping kayfabe about TV feuds and such. Hype up the company and the business but bury your opponent.
Hangman isn't going to post a selfie with Swerve, etc.
At a wrestlers wedding Toni Storm was in black and white in the official photos.
Stuff like that is worth keeping kayfabe alive for in our twisted dark hearts.
11:27 my way to enjoy wrestling is the entrance theme songs, the theme songs is the most important thing about wrestling and the superstars. For WWE we don’t see that all that much anymore, cause back in the day the songs actually was the superstars. The Music Artist who made so many greats back then Jim Johnston knew what these superstars were about.
When he created Undertaker’s theme he actually thought about death and thought about his own pain and bad past in life. Carlito’s old theme Jim knew his character had an apple and he spits in people’s faces cause there not cool, and Carlito is from Puerto Rico so it had to fit his style.
Im actually happy Def Rebel is leaving cause if wwe some how brings back Jim Johnston you will see how much of a legend he is.
Been to a few shows, TakeOver Cardiff and Clash at the Castle 2022, and 2008 raw house show and 2000/2001 episode of nitro. Its fun to be there but obviously tv is the best for accessibility more than anything. PLEs are definitely a better option than TV.
Im not really concerned with Kayfabe outside the ring but inside is really important to me. Selling fatigue and doing everything you can to make it seem like an actual match. I think a lot of the athletics kind of get in the way of telling a good story in the ring and they look like they are executing a spot versus actually wrestling. The more you can make it seem real the easier time I have suspending my disbelief.
For the most part i'm personally not too concerned about kayfabe in terms of wrestlers hanging out together or whatever. What does tend to bother me slightly is when the same wrestlers/stories seem to be inconsistent; e.g. the wrestler posting an Instagram story about how much they hate their rival and then the very next thing they post is a pic of them together talking about how much they actually love each other. I'm fine with one or the other either way, it's just the inconsistency that bothers me
I don’t mind what the wrestlers do off screen, but on screen I think they should treat wrestling as real as possible. I hate tongue in cheek irony gimmicks like the Young Bucks (where they just reference Twitter stuff like that makes a good product) or Chris Jericho (being bad on purpose).
Live promos are the standard, but something that really makes me invested are well made sit down promos backstage. When they have JR or Renee Paquette, you know it’s going to be good. Check out the one AEW put out now with Ospreay and Ricochet.
Idk, I’ve only been to one show live in my life, which was the first AEW All In. I loved it. When I was watching the second this year I kept thinking I wanted to be there 😂
I dont mind when finishers don't finish the match when it's supposed to be teo top athletes facing each other, it makes sense imo. What I hate is finisher spamming like the Rollins vs MacIntyre match at WrestleMania.
Kayfabe is mixed on alive and dead. Liv and Rhea are friends in real life, but them hugging each other and supportive in real life would make the story on-screen seem less important, them staying in-character on social media really adds to the story.
While having characters breaking kayfabe isn’t the end of the world, especially if they are at work(punk and drew both being at NXT, or at a signing together), but I think it adds if they don’t seem chummy at those places as it can feel a bit…jarring. But it’s fine.
On the other hand, seeing Liv all over social media and outside the show just being petty and hateful and dom obsessed is great.
The best example for this is MJF and part of why so many people like him. Because the little things outside the ring all add up in the character to make it that extra 10% more that you wouldn’t have.
1. Does Kayfabe matter? - Not anymore. I watch wrestling for the art of the match now. I could care less if it appears if people really hate each other on tv, and then hang out after. I've seen photos of freddy krueger hanging out with Nancy behind the scenes on the filming of the first Nightmare movie. It's the same thing. 🤷♂️
2. The promo styles, im not as big a fan of borderline cinema promos. But i understand why they exist.
3. Love false finishes (1, 2, ooo's), but i wish it wasnt due to so many finisher kickouts. I wish finishers were more protected across the board.
4. WWE used to have an occasional man vs woman match. They dont bother me, but i understand why it rarely happens outside of the Indie's.
5. Preferred method would still be at home. I dont mind going to a show or two here and there, but id rather be home, away from people.
Intergender wrestling is very common on the indies and in notable promotions in other countries. For the indies especially, it's almost necessary since the number of male talent heavily outweighs female talent, so women's wrestlers participate in intergender matches for the sake of more work.
That's like asking "Do movies need plots?"
Jamie Noble vs Nidia No Way Out 2004 was the first thing that came to mind for intergender match. Looking back honestly an interesting feud to say the least 😂😂
Ever since going to my 1st televised event in this years summerslam that changed my perspective. I’ve been a fan for over 15 years. Been to house shows but not a live show. The energy at sunmerslam blew everything else away. I think I heard you mention you don’t even care what seat your in you just want to be there to experience it. That’s how I feel after that experience.
In some ways, AEW is the American equivalent of new Japan pro wrestling, and the Japanese style at least in presentation. Lots of power creep, lots of finisher kick outs. The mid double lows to the mid tens was the height of this finisher creep for WWE. The apex of this was John Cena being eliminated early in an elimination chamber match by taking three or four different finishers in a row from top superstars.
Kayfabe is somewhat important. We all know it’s a show, but I don’t want Drew and Punk hanging around or Cody having a nice lunch with Solo.
The best part is wondering if it’s real or not, like Punk and Seth
In a way I think kayfabe is still alive, it just evolved and now has to include the performers real lives into wrestling. I still care for it, the most enjoyable moments in wrestling are the ones you believe in the most, the ones where you don't have to ask yourself if its fictional.
I think all finishers are meant to be kicked out of at some point but you have to make it important. If it happens every two matches it's not interesting for me. Also I kinda hate wrestlers being surprised after their opponents kick out of a signature like Ospreay or Cody thinking they're gonna end their match with a cutter, that never happens anymore, just hit the move then move on to the next one.
I think wrestling being what it is, intergender should be happening more often, it's not real sports competition, you have guys like Darby Allin beating guys like Mortos, why wouldn't Bayley pull off a classic against Andrade? Whenever I see an intergender match I just forget about gender 2 minutes into it. I'm not asking for intergender titles in WWE or AEW but when it makes sense storywise why tf not? I thought Orange vs Statlander at All in would've been a great idea.
I've been to a few shows and the energy is amazing everytime but if I had to choose I'd pick watching televised wrestling. I enjoy watching what happens in the ring more than the feeling of being in the crowd (and I was at All in 2024) to me it's more important to be as close and focused on the action as I can
The only promotion of note that isnt an indy that pushes/pushed intergender wrestling is TNA, moreso when they where impact wrestling. Ever since tessa blanchard came and went, theyve backed off of it but will do it occasionally.
1) I wouldn't be bothered by bitter rivals being friendly outside. In fact, I would assume Hangman and Swerve have become better friends since their feud together, as they've both done wonders for each other's careers as well as demonstrated a lot of trust in each other with what they put each other through in the ring. I'm also an adult and able to separate fact from fiction as well as not be mind broken by equally valid yet conflicting ideas.
It helps that I've known wrestling was "fake" since I was a child. To be fair, had I been born and raised in a Hick-Town with a strong pro-wrestling tradition or newspapers that were kayfabe, localized TV/Radio and no way of finding out what happened in the very next town outside of gossip, I may well have been kayfabed. We take it for granted now due to smartphones and social media, but even up to the mid-00s, information was hard to come by.
2) I'm with ya', brother!
3) AEW's finishers are weird. But that's good in my opinion. Back in the day, a finisher was a FINISHER. Then Finishers became highspots in Wrestlemania. And then false finishers became fairly common, although generally, WWE still maintains the integrity of finishers.
With AEW, they have it where Finishers are just strong moves, and even random moves or submissions can end matches. Danielson's earlier run in AEW had him finishing each match with a different move. Jericho's Judas Effect is pretty much one of the few true Finishers in AEW. There are pros and cons to this style, but overall I'm okay with it because it adds variety and even a bit of realism. At least it sets them further apart from the WWE.
Consider a MMA guy. He usually wins his matches with a rear naked choke, and it's become his signature. But sometimes he wins by TKO, armbar or points.
Meanwhile, the traditional Finisher has the weakness of being telegraphed and renders other signature moves pointless. No one really cares if Jericho puts someone in a Walls of Jericho or hits them with a codebreaker nowadays because they know that his finisher is the Judas Effect. Roman's spear is great for getting people hyped but they know it's just a setup for the Superman Punch. Meanwhile, Orange Cassidy can potentially win a match with a Beach Break, but it's the Orange Punch that's a sure thing.
Either way, they all have to work out their matches differently based on that. Which is great because it creates more variety.
4) Competitive intergender matches have yet to work outside of things where the guy is a supposedly a wimp like a referee or a manager, or Andy Kaufman. Other than that, they've never truly worked, not even in Lucha Underground. Non-competitive intergender matches like Minoru Suzuki vs Asuka or Maki Itoh, those are great. The men lose nothing while the women gain legitimacy.
Intergender wrestling is something I feel is wildly underutilized in pro wrestling. Chyna was one of the biggest stars of the Attitude Era because she wrestled the mem at times, even won the Intercontinental Championship and was No. 1 contender to the WWE Championship. I think you need the right talent involved and in-ring style to make it fun, but it can be a different feeling to standard matches. These days, WWE and AEW avoid it entirely (though Rhea Ripley vs. Dirty Dom has to be a consideration), but GCW and TNA are known to do them often. Independent wrestling in general is more comfortable with it.
Cinematic and In ring promos are my favorites..."backstage" segments have a lower hit rate for me ... if they are not done correctly they can be cringy
Kayfabe: I'm fine with seeing out of character stuff. But what bugs me is when they reference out of character stuff IN character. It's like if Thanos started talking to Iron-man about RDJ flubbing his lines.
False Finishes: A finisher should be a finisher.
Intergender: My favourite promotion Lucha Underground reguarly used intergender matches. As it said in their first episode: "It's 2014. Can we move past the idea of women being helpless victims?"
Which is something I agree with. Comparing two trained fighters to domestic abuse always has this unintentional ring of condescencion to it. It ends up undervaluing the skills and agency of the woman in the match and reducing her to just being a victim.
Some intergender unfortunately plays into that too, really playing up "A WOMAN is trying to fight a man" like a novelty. The best ones just treat it like any other fight.
Im ngl I would be pissed if I saw two wrestlers currently fueding randomly taking pictures with each other, especially if its something Im invested in. If it's a family photo like the Bloodline or something then that's completely different because yk they're family, but if I saw a photo on Drew's instagram of him and Punk hanging out at a mall or something Id be like wtf.
The best type of Kayfabe I love seeing today is that some wrestlers would be living their gimmick outside of shows. So for example MJF from AEW would be the douche he is IRL or like Liv Morgan and Dominik Mysterio being seen in public holding hands even though the cameras weren't rolling. To a point where you can't tell if its an act or real life.
1. I feel Kayfabe in 2024 is all but dead but you can still maintain that believability and keep Kayfabe if done right. The not being seen with your opponent during a big angle is a big one. That just doesn’t look right to my eyes. A big example of keeping kayfabe in the modern day was The Undertaker. He did no interviews, wore black/dressed modestly in public, you never really got a lot out of him, his private life was unknown, etc. Growing up literally the only two things I knew about that man before I found wrestling stuff online was his name was Mark and he was from Texas. WWE did a documentary with him a few years ago where for the first time he allowed himself to open up to cameras, talk about his life and really get into who is the Undertaker. It’s one of the best things the WWE has ever done. A example of kayfabe in the territories besides that plane crash incident was Bill Watts the guy who was the owner of Mid South Wrestling territory in the 80s had a legit rule about bar fights that’s been corroborated by many people who worked there. If you were in the Mid South territory and you were in a bar and you got into a fight and you lost that fight you got fired from Mid South. The reasoning was protecting kayfabe if that guy who beat you up at the bar can now say “Yeah that wrestling is fake you see that guy I beat him up at Mckinley’s last Thursday” Your credibility as a wrestler and what you do as being physically impressive/wrestlers being imposing people is lost now. That was the extent of protecting kayfabe back in the day.
2. With kicking out of finishes it’s just way too overdone in both companies. Hope they tone it down because a lot of peoples finishers have lost a lot of meaning. They are just moves now that have to be hit over and over. A few guys have been able to keep that rule of if you get hit my mine your not kicking out but that’s lost now kinda.
3. With what we have seen with Rhea over this past year with doing smaller things with guys like isolated slams, clotheslines and other things like that totally work. I grew up in the early 2010s where it was just normal WWE wrestling on TV, got out of it and got back into it in 2022. I don’t know where this whole subsection of fans cropped up that think a full on match with a big man and a female work in any way at all. It just looks wrong in every way for that to not just be a one time slam or incident. Back in the day when Tully and Dusty were feuding Babydoll would get in the middle of it, be yelling a Dusty getting in his face and slapping him. The crowd would go crazy because Dusty would give her a look then hit her right back. That was an isolated incident that worked for example. There can be stuff done like that now, obviously don’t have a big star like a Dusty now slapping a lady, but something that is a wrestling move that you know doesn’t hurt that bad but it gets the point across. Cornette has talked some about this like you can do certain wrestling moves because in the millions and millions of domestic violence cases how many of them have involved a scoop slam? You can have Damian Priest give Liv Morgan a scoop slam or something like that that would work fine.
I do like a certain level of Kayfabe. Wrestling is a business, and they're in the business of putting butts in seats to see people who hate each other fight. I don't really go on social media so I don't see most of the wrestler's posts, but I think if they're trying to sell tickets, then hanging out with your current enemy isn't going to help. I'm fine seeing behind the scenes stuff later, but I don't want to see it in real time.
I wish finishers lived up to their name and finished matches. If you don't want to end the match, don't hit your finisher, or like you said, come up with a way to prolong the match like the opponent getting their foot on the rope or rolling out of the ring, or taking too long to make the cover. Kicking out of a finisher should be saved for special occasions. If everyone's kicking out of it then your move sucks and you need a new one. Don't ruin your own gimmick. Again, this is a business, and you are the product. If you don't take your character and your feuds seriously, then why should anyone else? You're leaving money on the table.
I think it all comes down to one word: evolution. Ok, two: adaptation.
Kayfabe has evolved and adapted to suit the 24/7 social media society we live in now.
It doesn't _bother_ me to see kayfabe enemies hanging out outside their work, but it feels off.
Undertaker has some words about it in a video.
My weekly promos are either face to face in the ring or call outs, whether it's in the ring or backstage.
Segments like Cody and Roman should be reserved for moments like that. grand and special.
There should only be false finishes on signature moves and higher-risk spots, but a finisher should end it. Most of the time anyway, it's all about the story being told.
A finisher stops being one if everyone kicks out of it all the time.
Intergender matches where it's all in is a big no, but a spot like what Rhea and Dom do, or how Stephanie McMahon was receiving every move under the sun in promos, can feel great.
I think what Rhea Dom and Liv keeping kayfabe alive on Twitter is the perfect amount
I prefer the Japanese view of using Kayfabe. Essentially they act as if everything is real. Okada was never seen with the Young Bucks in NJPW even though he brought them in and they are good friends. When Omega was a face and the Bucks heels they were not seen together.
I do think wrestlers should be able to interact with each other off camera. If someone sees them and takes a photo I don't have an issue with that. My issue is when the wrestlers are just ignoring Kayfabe. It honestly ticks me off. If someone gets beat down one week, we shouldn't see them the next week as if nothing happened. This is one reason I prefer AEW to WWE. Too many times we see something happen in WWE were it is just ignored the next week. On the other hand, in AEW there are callbacks to things that happened 5 years ago. Everything is remembered (for the most part) and the history is respected. Some heels don't trust other heels and some faces don't trust other faces.
I don't mind false finishes to an extent. However, I think finishers should be finishers. It should be incredibly rare for anyone to ever kick out of a finisher. For instance, only two people have ever kicked out of Omega's One-Winged Angel finisher. That list includes Kota Ibushi and Kenny Omega when Adam Page hit him with it, so only one person kicked out for Omega. This is how it should be. Maybe there is a rope break or a save in a tag match or some other shenanigans, but once people commonly kick out of a finisher the wrestler needs a new finisher. I often think matches in AEW go one false finish too far. And a lot of the time it is pointless. The wrestler kicks out only to then be hit with something else and pinned 30 seconds later.
AEW actually had one intergender tag match. It was on the second Jericho Cruise. It can be done well. I loved how Sexy Star was used in Lucha Underground. Thunder Rosa was also one of the wrestlers in LU. Essentially they built the promotion for all the talent to simply be wrestlers. Yes everyone knew some of them were women, but that really didn't matter.
If I am going to go in person I want to either be at a house show or a massive PPV. (I refuse to use Vince's attempt to rebrand PPV to PLE, especially because when he did there was very little premium about WWE. It honestly was trash and was why the market was there to have a promotion like AEW enter the business.) With house shows you get all sorts of stuff happening that may never make it to TV. In fact, there were matches back in the day between massive stars that were never seen on TV. If it is a regular televised show or even one of the secondary PPV's then I would rather see it on TV. You don't have the enthusiasm of a fire crowd most of the time and you can see everything far more clearly.
The main problem with watching WWE "at home" is the amount of crowd noise/reactions/chants they add in, to manipulate how the product is presented. It's gotten worse in the last 10 years or so.
I was a little kid during the late 80s/early 90s. My Mom explained what wrestling was when I first watched it. She also told me that the only person that she had ever met who thought that wrestling was real died in the 60s. IMO 99% of wrestlers do not need to stay in character all of the time. Wrestling is a show. It's a live stunt show and soap opera. I don't expect Sylvester Stallone to be Rocky all of the time.
Edit to fix autocorrect.
Roughly 30% of wrestling fans thought it was real in the 80s according to some study. More or less the kids.
@@BigmanDogs I wonder where that number came from, how was the question worded, and who was surveyed (asked the question)? That percentage seems really high to me. I remember conversations with other kids during recess and nobody thought that wrestling was real. It's possible that my experience was different from other people's. I might have hung out with the 1989 version of smart marks. IDK.
Alright- let’s!
When it comes to kayfabe, I don’t really care. I know its a work, we all know it’s a work, so when an image comes out or something, i don’t care. If it’s like tiktok or something, then I start to dislike it, since social media is a tool for feuds a lot of the time.
I prefer in ring. I really disliked the roman cody stadium thing, felt very hokey, but in some cases, like when Rock beat up Cody in the rain, or when Hangman burnt down Romans house, it was cool. Generally though, those are very few cases. I prefer in ring segments, Hangman and Swrrve had a really good one last year before Full Gear, Ended up stabbing someone with a pen, it was really cool, and generally, it feels “realer” and more organic that way.
False finishes depend. If it’s a big match, then I’m for them, but occasionally it gets to a point. Will Ospreay had a match with his partner Kyle Fletcher a while ago, and it was alright, but Fletch ate way too many Hidden Blades, and it felt unearned. Those cases are generally far and few though, most of the time, like the grand slam match for example, it feels earned and like a big moment. A lot of wrestlers have multiple finishers for this reason. If Kenny hits a V-Trigger it might keep going, but it’s over when that one winged angel comes in.
Inter gender wrestling hasn’t been ever really normalized. It has happened, Chyna was the intercontinental champion, but that was more a gimmick. Some companies do it, a lot of indies, gcw, etc. I think it can work, Candice Lerae has some fucking amazing matches against the young bucks in the 2010’s but more often than not it ends up coming off weird. It can work though, aforementioned Candace Bucks matches, Baron Corbin & Becky, etc. It takes good workers though.
Nothing like a live show imo. Been to like 5 wwe house shows, summerslam 22’, and most recently a dynamite and all out, and the atmosphere is actually magical, definitely outweighs not having the camera & commentary.
Chelsea green vs pentagon.....that match is 🔥🔥🔥🔥 Chelsea green would be in the world title picture if that let her be what she did in this match in wwe
The first one only bothers me if its the wrestlers themselves that post the pics, beyond that it doesnt bother me too much even it does feel kinda surreal
i like the og 1 to 1. I dont know if anyones recommended CM Punk vs Mjf to you, but they have a really awesome 20 minute promo between each other.
I actually have the opinion that finishers are a sort of dying concept, i almost prefer that. Its cool to have one move to end typical tv matches, but id so much prefer if more wrestlers went down the gunther route of just having a litany of moves that makes the ending more unpredictable.
Inter Gender is just a gimmick, doesnt happen too often.
I also dont know if anybody recommended ospreay vs omega to you, but i actually traveled 7 hours to canada to see that one, in person will always reigm supreme
In my opinion, wrestling is better when you know it's fake because it introduces the notion of layers. The layers of reality and unreality in wrestling is what makes it fascinating to me. However, wrestlers should still make an effort to maintain the illusion like MJF.
To be quite honest, I don't really care NOW. I did back in the day. You do have a point though, depends on the storyline. At the emd of the day, it's a live soap opera. It's all about suspension of disbelief.
As far as promos, I love the vignettes, but the live stuff is the shit. The crowd can ruin it, but it really depends on who's talking. The face to face between, Cody, Seth, Rock amd Roman was AWESOME.
False finishes, can get old and yes, I feel like there are some finishers that you simply can't kick out from, it defeats the purpose. But hey, different times. The DDT was once tmost devastating move, but it's now just MEH.
Some notable intergener matches I can remember: Tiple H and Ronda Rousey WM34 and Chyna:
ua-cam.com/video/QywNfKbghKE/v-deo.htmlsi=IGMvrtHte4bgVRRx
I've only expreienced house shows and love them. You pretty much hit the nail on the head by saying hoise shows can be mini PLEs that din't affect the main story.
Currently GCW does intergender wrestling. It does not seem unrealistic for these women to wrestle these men as some women are the same size as the men.
I never really noticed until the Will Osprey and Kyle fletcher v c young bucks this week and the yb hit KF with what seemed like a finisher and he kicked only from them to do another move and then that’s what ended. Left me a confused and kinda annoyed
I actually have always secretly liked the idea of guys being best buds when the cameras go off. And in many cases, those kind of wrestlers usually have the best matches being that they know each other so well. My dad ruined kayfabe for me when I was 10 and told me he saw the undertaker and Kane hanging out together at the airport lol back during one of their fueds.
I preferred Kayfabe because it, intentionally or not, maintained the milieu of the wrestling world, the image that the wrestling world, or at the very least the promotion you were watching, was a real world in and of itself, and they worked to maintain that. Outside example, I know Friday the 13th is some nonsense, but I would NEVER want Jason to lift up his mask, address the viewers, and say, "Oh. Hi, marks! I'm not really deleting this dude. I'm really actor/stuntman Kane Hodder, and this is all pretend. I liked it so much better when I was a kid and you could just pretend that it was real.
The only promotion ive seen that does intergender matches is lucha underground. Pentagon vs Iyo Sky was really good
Kayfabe is alive and kicking in wwe isnt it.
The trible issues with AEW seems to revolve around aew not using kayfabe😮
As long as the job gets done when it times to get don't, I don't care about whatever else they do. Same way in like football or basketball they can hate each other on the court and hang out outside of it.
When I was a child, I genuinely believed Edge and Christian were cousins and that the Dudleys were adopted brothers. I miss that blissful ignorance in wrestling.
kayfabe died when dirtsheets became more mainstream but to me the only kayfabe that ever mattered was the iron sheik's hatred for hulk hogan
This a very interesting video!!
Are you going to watch TNA leading up to Bound For glory and make another video like this asking questions about TNA
I intend for bound for glory to be my first time watching a tna show.