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The Ming and Manchus/Qing would be much more receptive to European technologies and innovations China, Korea and Japan would Industrialized Centuries earlier!!! Worldwide technological development increases as Asians and Europeans push each other to Innovate and Grow Stronger!
What if the Dutch Revolution the Greek Revolution and the American Revolution and the Revolution of the Spanish America and the France Revolution and the Revolutions of 1848 All failed
You are understating it, he carried not only the Joseon military but the entirety of Korea himself. If there ever was a Korean Jesus, Admiral Yi Sun-shin was the man.
4:50 regarding Admiral Yi Sun Shin, he was actually demoted by corrupt officials and rivals in the Korean courts multiple times and had to work his way back up from scratch. Korea was actually incredibly lucky to have such an insanely skilled and dedicated commander at the time, but it was very possible that he could have just given up on a military career, or had his reputation so thoroughly destroyed that he couldn't rise again.
Yet from that Korean flits were way bigger and they had massive fire arms japanese needs to go close to the ship and have a siege without Yi I think korean navy would do better than the japanes navy
@@Lonewolfdebnf The Joseon navy outside of Yi's command was absolutely destroyed, every time command was awarded to a lesser admiral the Japanese would annihilate the Korean navy. Now, I think there's a strong argument that even without the Korean navy, the Japanese still could not defeat the combined Ming and Joseon forces. If that is your argument, then I understand, but if you are trying to argue that there was a better admiral in Korea than Yi Sun Shin, than I must disagree. I don't even think Admiral Nelson could have pulled off what Yi did, and Nelson has a statue in Trafalgar square.
There are some Korean theories that claim it was the horse riders from ancient Korea who conquered and unified Japan. Generally, it is said that there are two kinds of peoples in Japan, the local Jomon and the immigrant Yayoi. Jomon contributed mostly the prehistoric Japan, while the Yayoi made up most of feudal Japanese nobility. But most Japanese scorn these theories.
@@publiuska2204 Well, both Korean and Japanese has a lot of simmilarities with Turkic and Mongolic, so they probably are either related or from the same Sprachraum
@@adidoki that theory has been disproved. Korean & Japanese and Turkic & Mongolic are not of the same family. Further the early samurai were said to be Northern barbarians. Which makes the Ainu the most likely candidate but still unproved
No tgey are both languages that do not come from a greater language family. They have many common words but tge core remains distinct, and those commonalities come from many years of cultural exchange between tge chinese, koreans and japanese
I take issue with a certain part of your scenario: In the period where the Ming collapse, Japan would undoubtably intervene as well. It's very much a toss up whether they would succeed in their invasion, but given the choice between the (in sinocentric terms) barbarian Manchu and the at least semi-civilized Japanese, a lot of the Ming defectors from our timeline might just side with the Japanese instead.
Nah… before beating the crap out of the Ming the Manchu beat the crap out of the Koreans, forced them to change allegiance and never help the Ming and the Manchu weren’t really expansionistic. So the Japan-Korea would probably fight the Manchu, lose badly, find no reason to support the Ming after their failures, recognize the Qing as their sovereign and pay tribute as if nothing changed. Ming remnants were honestly small, quite scattered and never made any significant resistance because after the suicide of Chongzhen and all his direct descendants the “Northen Ming” was embroiled in court treachery and machinations to find the “true heir”, so all resistance against the Qing were labeled as “rebels”. Honestly nothing would change much until the Europeans in the 1800 as both the Qing and probably the Japan#Korea would also be pretty secluded and isolationist. Then in the 1900 instead of taking Korea they could maybe take Manchuria, maybe splitting it with the Russians, accelerating the demise of the Qing. But mostly things would have stayed the same.
@@gianniwu6564 What you fail to take into account here is the reason why the Manchu managed to beat the Koreans so soundly: Guns. The Manchu, early on, were effective because they figured out really good strategies and formations in gunpowder-based warfare. Now, take a guess what the Japanese had been doing towards the end of the Sengoku period? Figuring out really good strategies for gun warfare and even drilling their troops in ways comparable to the same kind of bureaucratic warfare the Europeans were figuring out around the same time. Also: Who the hell was talking about Ming LOYALISTS??? I was talking about the generals and troops that betrayed the Ming and bolstered the ranks of the Manchu. Basically, what I'm saying is that your assumption that the Manchu faring the same against Japan-Korea as against the Koreans and then everything just staying mostly the same is very much not a given. Now, is it a given that Japan just beats up everyone and takes over China? Absolutely not. It'd be pretty much a toss-up whether the Manchu manage to contain the Japanese, mostly contingent on the effectiveness of either party's leadership by that point (a few decades are enough to butterfly things like that)
@@yannickluecker3983 the Ming generals that sided with the Qing was because they were promised that their positions would be left unchanged and that they could keep all the gains of their battles. That’s why they were so courageous during battles. They weren’t fighting anymore for an empire but themselves. At most after they had looted enough they would stop intervening, but I don’t see them fighting against the Qing anytime soon. Even Wu Sangui and the other warlords revolted only after Kangxi wanted to take back their positions. So as long as the Manchu can offer them the most they would probably stand by. And then Korea was beaten because they were unprepared. The Manchus were still nomadic, even though the Korean Manchu border is short you can’t defend every single spot, in our timeline when the border seemed okay Korean kings would just reduce their garrisons there to save money. As soon as the Japan-korea reduced the garrisons the Manchu would come, if they increased the Manchu would feel in danger and attack first. The Ming had to stop them 3 times and even killed their king, but they just came back… for 10 years. Japan Korea wouldn’t be able to shoulder the costs and sooner or later would cut ties with the Ming and pay tributes to the Qing. In fact their surrender was quite lenient, just cut ties with the Ming and recognize us as the patron nation, practically for the Koreans nothing changed, continue paying your tributes and stop helping the other nation.
@@yannickluecker3983 and honestly I think it would be more probable that the Koreans, disillusioned after the failure of the Ming to protect them, side with the Manchu to kick out the Japanese.
@@paonippobemduro actually there probably was, if japan managed to last long enough to consolidate enough bases in korea, they won't need the ships from japan, of course this breaks the chain of command a bit but if all goes well, then yi sun sin becomes reduced to a very shrewd pirate who managed to get some territories under him but is otherwise eventually manageable, one way or another.
@@Cecilia-ky3uw That's Impossible, trough. The japanese tried it, but they have no chance in a long-term run if their supply fleets and reinforcements keeps getting destroyed by the admiral. Alas, the koreans had their land army which only keeps growing because of the state of emergency, and consolidating control over a population which you have no claim to rule over is also hell. Before any such thing, they would've need to destroy the Korean government and absorve it's nobles to consolide rule. All in all, it's impossible to conquer Korea as long Yu sun shi lives or is free (when he got imprisioned, the japanese campaign advanced a lot).
@@paonippobemduro My point was simply that most of the problem was supplies which would be solved if they just set up the supply lines at the front, that is consolidating korean lands.
even without Yi Sunshi, Chineses force will defeat the Japaneses in Korea and put them back to their island, China would never tolerate a great power in its North-East border,
2:00 that point has fallen out of favour among historians because most of the samurai that Toyotomi Hideyoshi sent to Korea were from clans that were loyal to him, while the less loyal ones (who were more likely to rebel) stayed in Japan.
@@presidenttogekiss635 easier said than done. Samurai are the kind of people who would gut themselves if they shame themselves. imagine trying to get them to do something they really don't want to do.
@@groomschild1617 That´s true, it would be useful to pay into their shame "Are you too much of a coward to go to Korea and fight? Do you rather stay here in this cozy place? Coward".
@@presidenttogekiss635 yeah in theory that could work but this was in the era before printing press, mass media and social media. so it was a lot harder to anonymously shame a person. A person would have to go up to a samurai's face and call him a coward. Good luck with your chances of survival in that case
@@groomschild1617 China, my brother, why do we fight each other? We are one people to liberate our brothers, Yajuh and Magog, and destroy the world with us
Honestly here are some ideas about this scenario. 1) If Japan manages to hold Korea I would imagine the japanese would want to integrate korean culture into Japan, I'd imagine the relations between Japan and Korea would be a bit like England and Scotland maybe? Lots of back and forth between the peninsula and the islands with sizeable japanese minorities in Korea and sizable korean minorities in Japan. 2) If Japan only somewhat manages to hold onto Korea I'd imagine that Japan could only hold onto south-east Korea like Busan, maybe Fuzan (Busan) would become a gateway for Japan into continental asia? or perhaps like a japanese hong kong? 3) If Japan completely is incompetent I like to imagine a korean general or maybe even Yi Sun-Shin himself leading an uprising against the japanese, maybe potentially even establishing a japanese-style shogunate with the Yi family controlling a militarized agressive Korea?
Would make a dope anime. Unfortunately there is am extreme lack of anime about actual Asian history. Its an untapped gold mine I think due to the fact that many Asian people may not have faith in the commercial success of thier own medieval history in the west. But the Netflix horror/historical drama "Kingdom" is proof that it can be done. Now we should just remove the zombies and add speculative history
It took Mongols over 60 years to conquer a fragmented China so I doubt Japan could do it against a unified China. Not only that, Japan's main veteran armies were already struggling against Ming's expeditionary forces and had to fight most of their battles in castles. They hardly managed to survive open land battles so it's highly unlikely they can invade Ming's full armies.
@@QWERTY-gp8fd Ming during the 1592s is pretty much unified. For most of Chinese history the map is similar to how it was during Ming. Only under Qing and modern china did the size grew to include northern asia and mongolia.
Even in a scenario in which Hideyori was able to build a Japanese empire, it is doubtful that Japan would ultimately be able to assimilate Korea. Due to high tax rates and class discrimination, the relationship between Japan and Korea may be similar to that between the UK and Ireland. According to this assumption, Korea may become independent in the 20th century, but the southeastern part of the Korean Peninsula may remain Japanese territory. Second, in the case of a scenario in which Hideyori is defeated in a civil war and the empire collapses, the Toyotomi family may flee to Korea. It is likely that this would go in a similar direction to the Norman conquest of England. Although Toyotomi and daimyo of Japanese origin replace the Korean ruling class, they may be assimilated into Koreans in the long run as their numbers are small and further migration from Japan is limited.
However, in order for the second scenario to come true, the surrounding conditions and the diplomatic situation must be well matched. At worst, they may be besieged by the newly formed Japanese shogunate, the Jurchen khan or Chinese emperor (possibly the same person?), and uncooperative local Koreans, making their rule unstable.
6:20 "ordinary Koreans will not care too much even if they were ruled by Koreans or the Japanese"....... That's the greatest false assumption you made. The highlight of the Imgin war is the Japanese getting surprised by the Korean laymen who cared and hated to be ruled by Japanese. Numerous peasant and laymen organized guerillas happened to the surprise of Japan.
Yes. The Japanese raided and pillaged the countryside and robbed the peasantry. The Korean peasantry literally referred to the Japanese as Bandits because of how much looting and rape they were doing.
so true, I don't think any peasant would be happy if some foreign, almost "barbarian" people, strolled into their village to rape, kill, and steal from said peasant, then claim that the peasant is now under the rule of the "barbarians".
Hi, I love your channel, you do very well structured alternate history scenarios that are fleshed out. I've been binge watching/listening lately and plan on going through them all. You definitely deserve more subscribers.
Very good video, glad that you took in one of my ideas! :D Yeah Admiral Yi basically carried Korea into beating Japan away lol, and with him gone it's honestly surprising to hear that the Manchus would be rivalling with the Japanese, but it was quite welcomed to see the Ming and Manchus working together for some time. Also yeah Japanese rule over Korea was basically nigh impossible considering the death of Hideyoshi would just mean another civil war, and Ming would just reaffirm Korean independence after that. Both the successful and failed scenarios were both very cool to listen to, with the failed conquest maybe leading to a Christian Japan becoming quite based lol. Another idea I have is what if Li Zicheng didn't die immediately after defeating the Ming? Basically he's kinda like Toyotomi Hideyoshi where he starts out as a peasant, but instead he leads a peasant rebellion into Beijing and begins the Shun dynasty... Before it collapsed a year into his death after losing the battle of Shanhai Pass against the Ming loyalists and a Manchu Prince. What if he had won the battle? Forcing the loyalists into Manchuria and pushing the Manchus out of China temporarily, and implementing his pseudo-socialistic ideology earlier into China, could he and his dynasty have successfully reformed China into a modern powerhouse before the Brits started to drug peddle? Or would the Manchu still have returned and conquered China and bring it into the century of humuliation? Would love to see you do a video on it lol. Also, the Qing is not pronounced as 'Hsing', more like 'Ching', anyways see ya when you post next time lol
nah… Li Zicheng would have never succeeded because he never knew or thought about how to govern, he was just a rascal and a bandit. His motto was literally “ I am coming open the gates, I won’t set taxes and take your food”. His only source of income was looting whatever was left of the Ming’s “inheritance”. In fact he lost to the Manchus because according to texts his soldiers after sacking Beijing took off their armor to wear silk robes and left their spears for vases.
@@gianniwu6564 Still, it would've definitely been much better than Qing rule imo, would've been interesting to see a Shun dynasty that could potentially reform China than one that we already know failed. Maybe he holds off long enough for another good official/governor to rise up and beat his ass idk, but the Manchus should've stayed beyond the walls
@@yeeyee5057 honestly Qing rule wasn’t that bad, there is a reason why they were the guys that brought China to its biggest territorial and population size. They were just incompetent… but they were never evil. In fact they fixed taxes, like every family has to pay a certain amount independently from size, so people weren’t taxed heavily; every time there was a natural disaster the emperor would always give relief; the emperors were the most disciplined in history, when they had sex the eunuchs would count time and as soon as the time was up the woman would be dragged out of the room, they could only take three bites out of every food and from a young age they had to learn everything about government and previous emperors. Now there also problems, like by never increasing taxes government revenue never increased so they could never do any RED and smaller officials often had to set some “fees” in order to maintain expenses and themselves, fostering corruption. The emperor would give relief, but the relief had to be brought from other regions to the affected area, during which some of it would “get lost”, eaten by “rats and birds”, when it arrived government officials had to “check” it, then it would be given to city officials to “distribute”, until only some of the relief would actually be helpful. By learning past emperors they never had any will to change. So yeah, by modern standards they were bad, incompetent and stubborn, but by Ming and previous dynasties’s standard they were all competent enough or excellent.
The timeline until the Battle of Shanhaiguan was the same, so if the Qing army passed Shanhaiguan, it would be difficult for Li Zicheng to win. It is better to consider taking the Great Wall before the Qing army advances than winning against the Manchu cavalry in the field.
@@shinfeinrozava9468 fair enough, though also hoping that the generals manning the great wall also aren't such Ming loyalists they'd let Barbarian forces take China
The identity of Korea and Korean nationalism goes pretty deep even in 16th century. The major push back from the sea was Admiral Yi for sure but the other push back on the land was the guerilla fighting force of the righteous army. To explain righteous army is a hard one so to keep it simple, they were the Confucianism-noble lead peasant force who were pissed at Japanese invaders for bad treatment and so forth. Calling 16th century Korea and China a feudal is wrong, they had absolute monarchs.
Let me simplify this video for you. If Chinese troop sit at border and didn’t help korea, the scenario in the video would happen. But in reality Chinese support more than doubled Korean side’s fighting capability on the ground, Chinese army led most of the offensive operations to retake Japanese controlled land. I love how this man manage to talk about “repelling Japanese invasion” while completely neglecting the contribution from the Chinese 😅
"Japan's history starts with the Sengoku period" It's like saying that India's history starts with the Dutch East India Company.... you miss out key parts such as Heien period, Asuka period, Kamakura and Nara periods...
I always wonder when an alternate history about the Imjin War would come out the moment I get to know alternate history is a thing, glad that my question has been answered.
Japan will understand the need for naval power. Just as Imperial Japan in the 20th century needs to be expanding its borders to protect its homeland. This would allow the Shogun to give land to successful Daimayos and a stronger Japanese navy, might lead to clash with Spanish Philippines or if they go north, clashing with Russia and Japan Alaska.
Japan's successful industrialization relied on overthrowing the rule of shogunate generals, while China only overthrew the rule of feudal emperors in 1911
The reason why the Imjin Wars (Imjin/Bunroku 1592-1593 and Chongyu/Keicho 1597-1598) ended is because the Japanese kampaku Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598. The Japanese daimyos no longer had any reason to stay in Korea, so they withdrew. In order to explore an alternate history where Japan won the Imjin Wars, you need to make the biggest rewrite of history where Toyotomi Hideyoshi wouldn’t have died in 1589. That means Tokugawa Ieyasu would not have become shogun, and there wouldn’t have been an Edo shogunate. There wouldn’t have been a Meiji Restoration and the modernization of Japan in the 19th century. It’s possible Japan would have been carved up by 19th century colonial powers the same way China and the rest of Asia fell. But what of Korea and the short-term alternate history in the late 16th and early 17th centuries? Hideyoshi’s plan was to secure Korea as a land route to fold out a campaign against Ming China. He would have been happy to consider Korea a footnote to award to his vassal daimyos, if he could get his own trophy. As much as sentiments are rife with the idea that grassroots resistance would have made any kind of occupation a miserable failure, that’s not how feudalism works. The peasantry was there to be taxed, and that was it. So, say, if Gyeonsang province was award to Mori Terumoto, Terumoto would appoint some local Korean official as the tax collector. He’d be told, “You can collect as much taxes as you want. Just give me the amount that’s due for me.” Greed wins, and it’s the Korean tax collector who’d be oppressing the people. (You know it, because this happens in real history.) When the local rebellion happens, it’s the Korean tax collector who’s hung naked from his ankles with his nose chopped off. As for whether Hideyoshi succeeds in conquering Ming China and its consequences, though, that’s a separate piece of alternate history to explore.
The confrontation of two big powers (with a big coast), Japan and China would be extremely interesting in the following centuries as it may force them to open to modernity to take of the threat
In Chinese history, there were three dynasties that fought against Japan: the Tang Dynasty, the Ming Dynasty, and the Qing Dynasty. Only the Qing Dynasty lost to Japan, or rather, the feudal agricultural countries lost to the capitalist industrialized countries
I learned about Admiral Yi from Extra History, and that earned my respect for such a remarkable, loyal man. Admiral Yi Sun-Shin was truly one of the greatest admirals in the world
Great video. An interesting scenario this made me think of was what if China managed to keep the Europeans out of China by mobilizing the empire against foreign occupation. I think this could lead to a china as advanced as Japan was in the early 1900s which would be a profound shift in East Asian affairs
One of the big issues China faced was also technology and idea adoption. China refused to trade anything by except for silver and notoriously referred to European technologies such as guns, ships, compasses, maps, etc as “barbarian trinkets”. This is the opposite of how Japan viewed them. Oda Nobunaga was so largely successful because of his appreciation of European guns and proper military structure and later, the Meiji Restoration went all out on adopting European ideas and technologies. China had viewed itself as the centre of the world for thousands of years. I don’t really see a way around this glaring flaw. China was rapidly becoming a sick man but refused to believe it. Unfortunately I almost feel that by the time the conflicts with the Europeans happened, it was inevitable. That alternate history would probably have to start much earlier, probably around the Ming Treasure Voyages.
@@ScuffTuff i’ve seen a lot of evidence that says that it was a breakdown of regional and national bureaucracies from coordination that led to China, not being able to bring its full forces to bear during European incursions. Even if China lacked the technological supremacy of the Europeans, which is questionable, the Chinese outnumber the europeans, almost 100 to 1. And had it not been for the Taiping rebellion, which pretty much gutted the legitimacy of the central government, it is very likely that China would have been able to conduct enough internal reforms, to remain the hegemon of east Asia.
@@amk4956 It is not questionable that china was technologically inferior. It is simply fact. China repeatedly and massively outnumbered European forces in its battles against them and was humiliated time and time again.
@@joshwenn989 so from a technological standpoint, it is true that China had inferior guns and ships however, they had superior manufacturing capabilities and internal transportation infrastructure systems that is fully utilized, even with a technological disparity in weapons, should have been able to force the Europeans from China, however, due to a whole host of internal issues from a time of peace and the decentralization of the bureaucracy, it was practically speaking impossible for there to be a situation where the full force of China could be brought to bear against the Europeans prior to the entire Chinese system imploding during the Taipei rebellion.
Had Japan won the war, there would be no Imjin War, as it is the Korean name of the war, it would be instead called the Bunroku War which is derived from its Japanese name Bunroku no eki.
To be honest, there have been quite a few exceptional rulers in history, be it militarily or politically. For example Ismail, Babur or Carolus Rex, Alexander the Great or Baldwin of Jerusalem. So if we were to put Hideyori Toyotomi on the same level as them in the needed apsects, it doesn't seem to unrealistic for him to hold it together
Due to the opening of the new shipping route, Europe gained capital accumulation. Due to the rise of the bourgeoisie, Europe started the Renaissance Movement, and feudal nobles were suppressed. From that moment on, Europe gradually led Asia. Europe's success was based on a variety of coincidences
What if Hideyoshi instead of attacking Korea decides that the Europeans are too much of a threat and expands south, as well as reinforcing the north? The Matsumae clan upon receipt of the Matsumae Domain and the reinforcing northern Daimyo are able to negotiate a vassalization treaty with the Ainu peoples (Hokkaido, Shakalin, Kuriels, Kamchatka Peninsula), like the one the Shimazu & Satsuma clans will shortly place on the Ryukyu kingdoms, coastal trade cities, military and international policy in return for local devolved rule and tribute. This gives Hideyoshi access to gold (~100 tons) and Silver (~1000 tons) from Monbetsu as well as silver, Iron, and copper from Muroran, not to mention furs, fish, etc. The Wakō pirate purge leading up to the Imjin War doesn't take place, instead, they are used for their sailing ability and local knowledge of Taiwan & northern Philippines. William Adams agrees to teach European shipbuilding & seamanship to the Japanese, as well as negotiating trade agreements with protestant nations (UK/Netherlands...) who view this as a chance to weaken the Catholics without spilling Protestant blood and while earning gold whilst also giving them a chance to take India & the spice islands. For a casus belli, Catholics (Portuguese & Spanish) go too far with slaving & proselytizing & other disruptive activities, leading to priests being executed for inciting a rebellion (an early Shimabara rebellion) causing a demand for compensation from the Catholic nations under threat of war, Hideyoshi cannot seem weak so he redirects the Imjim invasion force and prepares the navy. The Shimazu & Satsuma clans depart first to vassalize Ryukyu, including Taiwan, if it fails to allow passage of the Japanese navy to the Philippines.
15:45 "To the north there is land that is currently unowned." I think the Ainu (who inhabited Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kurils) and the Black Water Mohe (who inhabited Khabarovsk) might object to that characterization.
I think something like the relationship Sweden and Finland have would develop. Finland was part of Sweden for so long that until Russia conquered it it wasn't even thought of as a different country. In spite of this, the Finnish language and culture never disappeared. Something similar would happen here, because the Japanese would need a class of Korean-speaking officials to interact with the population. Also some minor Korean nobles might see an opportunity and intermarry with and adopt the new conquerors' culture in order to advance in society. So even if the upper nobles of Japanese Korea would be socially and culturally almost identical to their insular equivalent, for the lower levels I think it would be very different. The lower nobles would to be bilingual or be local Koreans who got their titles by working with the Japanese. for commoners, Japanese might be the majority in some big cities and maybe along the southern coast? But over time I feel like they would develop a different identity as they would be a mix of assimilated Koreans and descendants of settlers who have been living alongside and intermarrying with Koreans for generations, to the point that even if they speak the same language they would have less in common with their insular cousins than with their Korean neighbours.
If the people higher in the social caste adopt japanese culture, it would certainly spread to people below,thats how it is always been in feudal societies Korea at that time still use chinese for writing altho a certain king made the korean alphabet, they didnt use it and even scorned it For 3 centuries its impossible for more than half the peninsula to not be japanized, and once industrialization comes, it will be even faster
Since Hideyoshi did not see Korea as an opponent and was not interested in the invasion, it would be most likely that Tokugawa Iejasu would be made supreme commander of the invasion forces. In reality, the Tokugawa and their allies did not take part in the invasion and thus had the largest remaining armies in Japan. Iejasu was a genius strategist and commander in contrast to Hideyoshi who was an incompetent fool. The Japanese army that invaded Korea was also not a unified centralized army. There were many different clan armies in Korea, some of which attacked and fought each other. Featuring Iejasu as the supreme commander and all of Japan's ronin as Tokugawa soldiers. If the invasion had been successful in any case. Either way, Hideyoshi would not have survived long after the invasion of Korea ended. The Tokugawa would definitely have come to power. Iejasu might even have forced Korea's peaceful submission. Japanese and Koreans would have fought together against the Chinese and the Jurchen. Under the Tokugawa shogunate, which would also have control of Korea, Japan would probably have continued to expand and modernize. Japan's self-isolation would probably have taken place anyway.
@@paonippobemdurothere was a pirate king that helped the mori clan become one of the biggest clan in their region, and also the biggest naval power Unfortunately he refused to serve hideyoshi
@@smolensky06969 Well, the japanese army really didn't have much of a supply of competent naval officers, but Hideyoshi built a lot of Atakebunes, the navy responsible for destroying the Mori fleet you mentioned, also, Hideyoshi used his own forces and funds in a war he expected to be quick and easy so he would expand his domain and put pressure in his main rival, Tokugawa Leyasu. Of course, he should've equipped his naval forces better and invested more in naval technology before his compaign, but he still did invest a lot to the point that the chances of sucess were really high, also, Hedeyoshi trough he would win cuz he expected that most battles could've been land ones, while he trough the enemy naval army would simply end obliterated with sheer numbers and classic japanese boarding tactics by using a sturdy fleet, he obviously didn't expect that a excepcional naval officer capable of obliterating his entire army with ingenious tactics would be in the enemy army.
@paonippobemduro Yi Sun shin could only defend one port, and to be precise, he did not hinder the Japanese army's advance speed on the Korean Peninsula. The front battlefield was entirely completed by the Chinese army
Even if Toyotomi successfully managed to conquer Joseon, the Korean peninsula would soon have broken away from the direct rule of Japanese shogunates during the Sekigahara War. Afterwards, the Korean peninsula would have become much like the Sengoku era of Japan, without any central power to dominate the entire peninsula.
As Korean what I can confirm with your comment is that 16th century was when Koreans solidified their national identity and China-Korea central ideology settled, so it would be impossible to annex the entire peninsula into their direct territory.
@@qdlbp 장담하기 어렵습니다. 소중화와 같은 사상은 사대부들 사이에선 인기있었으나 평민과 노비들에게는 별다른 의미를 가지지 못했고, 사대부들뿐 아니라 평민과 천민들까지 모두 조선이란 국가로 결집시켰던 이씨 왕조에 대한 충성심은 그 이씨 왕조가 한 번이라도 완전히 패퇴하여 왕실의 정통성이 끊긴다면 유지될 수 없는 것이었죠. 임진왜란 기간 조선인들 중 일본으로 건너간 경우나 반대로 왜군 중 조선에 정착한 경우가 모두 적잖은 비율로 존재했다는 건 시사하는 바가 큽니다. 당대 조선이 항왜 정치체로서 움직였던 건 구심점이 될 선조와 조정이 끝내 왜군에게 잡히지 않은 채 버텨냈기 때문이고, 만약 조정이 무너진 상황이라면 조선은 잠깐 도요토미의 지배하에 놓였다가, 도요토미의 몰락 이후로는 임란기 조선반도에 진출한 일본계 다이묘와 (구) 조선의 관리 등이 서로 이합집산해 경쟁하는 삼국지 비슷한 모양새를 연출했을 가능성이 크죠. 당연히 전란기를 거칠 테니 유교적 영향이 감소하고 상무 정신도 훨씬 강해졌을 테고, 전체적으로 동시대의 만주~몽골 지역과 유사한 역사적 경로를 따르게 되지 않았을까 싶습니다. 거기서 이제 이순신같은 명장들이 끝까지 살아남아 난세를 제압하고 새로운 국가를 만들면 명청교체기 중국의 혼란상을 틈타 동아시아의 강대국으로 나아갔을 테고, 그러지 못하면 지금 중국에 속한 만주처럼 분열된 채 지지부진하다가 정체성을 잃고 중원을 정리한 청나라에게 정복당해 중국의 일부가 되었을 테구요..
I'll say this for the algorithm: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Lol The algorithm is how I found you and your depth on these videos is awesome!
What if the ottomans recreated the roman empire, by winning key battles, such as lepanto, the first Battle of Vienna, taking constantinople earlier, winning against Tamerlane, etc
@caniblmolstr4503 i dont think so. Both Timur and Bayezid were military Geniuses and employed similar tactics, Bayezid made a mistake by thinking emotionally and chased timurtiring hus army and losing his water supply, if he stayed in Ankara or intercepted timur the Battle couldve gine both ways. Even in our timeline, the Battle of Ankara was a close Victory
@@shreksswamp5721 Almost all of Timur's battles had ana element of mind games involved. Tokhtamyshk Delhi Sultanate The pile of skulls That Bayezid losing his temper was part of Timur's strategy. Hence why I say winning against Timur is impossible. He will always find a way
@caniblmolstr4503 Yes, you are correct. Timur never lost a battle (except the time he became lame, but that was due to the idiocy of his ally). But then again, the Battle of Ankara was very close, bayezid was initially winning but was betrayed by the Karatatrs and Anatolian Beys. And to make this Timeline happen we dont even have to make timur and Bayezid fight each other, the reason Timur attacked the ottomans and raided sivas was to teach them a lesson, because Bayezid was housing the leaders of the Qara Qoyunlu. Timur was a great general, but a shitty politician and administrator, Bayezid could've come to an agreement with him. Originally, Timur didn't have any interest in the ottomans, his main goal was China.
@@shreksswamp5721 you're underestimating the guy. He very well had an ambition of becoming the next Great Khan. In this I compare him to Antigonus Monopthalmus another man of immense ambition and a physical impediment. He thought the world was his for the taking and it was
I don't think a slow Ming response would allow Japan to keep all korea, even if you take Yi Sun-sin out of the equation, is hard to believe Japanese would have been able to hold Pyongyang and Seoul and the rest of northern Korea indefinitely against the Chinese, they suffer from bad logistics and overstretched battle lines, theeir loses were heavy, specially after the chinese starting to take it seriously after the second battle of of Pyongyang. Japan couldn't even reach Seoul during the second invasion. China population at the time was 200 millions and Japan 12 millions, the Ming was able to send a 100k army to Korea while dealing with a Mongol and a Miao rebellion at the same time. Doesn't seems sustainable to hold all korea even if Hideyoshi lives for another decade.
Hello, I've always Loved History just in general, for me what-if questions are just natural... sooo many instances in past (different countries different times) where you could have a what-if...Thanx 🙏🙂🖖V3
Cool vid. Scratching my alt history itch. Whatifalthist is busy making humanities vids.... (witch, i am loving so damn much, but M A N, i miss alt history 😢) Keep it up! Alt history scenarios I'd like to see: What if axis mass deported all the jews and people they didn't like instead of the showers and camps? What if Japanese converted to Christianity? What if a major European country personal unioned a marriage with a non European queen/ empress? What if treaty of tordesillas wasn't a thing/ a diverse permanent colonial Americas and old world?
Actually, it's pretty easy to prevent the power struggle that toppled the Toyotomi from power. Prevent Hideoshi's nephew Toyotomi Hidetsugu's death via ritualistic suicide, which only happened due to Hidetsugu being accused of organizing a coup, caused by the deterioration of relations between the two men, which might not happen with a successful Korea campaign.
I am currently working on reworking those older video's, reuploading them with better audio/video quality so eventually it will come back up better. But here is the link to the unlisted old version so you can watch it: ua-cam.com/video/FWMy59FVcdI/v-deo.html
At 15:33, you have a Japan expanding within that small window of time; the big problem is the Spanish presence in the southern Philippines. If a savvy Japanese emperor created an alliance with the Dutch, who would love to hamper Spain's Asian colonial ambitions, then perhaps holding this expanded empire would be more doable?
As a Korean I would say two likely scenarios. 1. As Koreans don't take outsiders ruling favorably (reason they resisted against Chinese for such a long time instead of being integrated, even the Mongolians had to make a peace treaty) the Japanese would have to convince the Koreans. By a long shot since the Japanese Royal family being a branch from a Korean nobility they could have tried to convince the populace of the legitimacy. 2. There would have been an uprising against the Japanese until a someone started a new dynasty.
Because of China's non-aggression, the Korean peninsula became independent and became a vassal state of China; because of Japan's aggression, Korea was colonized by Japan for 50 years. Historically, China was stronger than Japan for 2,000 years.
@@kyuucampanello8446 China never had actual control over Korea for multiple reasons. Korea was seen as a vassal state to a tributary state depending on the time of history, but never have or had any direct control from China.
In the early days of its existence, the Ming dynasty demanded hundreds of virgins in order to subdue Joseon. In addition, Joseon had to offer specialty products, hawks, lynxes, and other symbols. Some Koreans may have suffered here, but not many. Soon enough, relations between the Ming and Joseon stabilized, and these things all but disappeared. The problem came with the Qing Dynasty.
The Qing dynasty financed its conquest of the Ming dynasty from Joseon. In the process, there was an unprecedented amount of extortion and the joeseon people were subjected to heavy suffering. However, after the 18th century, as with the Ming, these tribute demands faded as relations between the Qing and Joseon stabilized.
@@kyuucampanello8446 This is how the Chinese set up their relationship, and Joseon was more inclined to listen to them than to resist them, but there is a reason why many Koreans think they will resist Japan after watching this video. That is the difference between China and Japan. Japan has to overcome three barriers. The first barrier is the perception gap. In the Joseon worldview at the time, China was the most civilized country in the world. Japan, on the other hand, was a barbaric country on the outskirts of civilization. For example. If Britain were to be directly ruled by the United States, there would be some small-scale resistance, but I think they would accept it quickly. But if Britain was ruled by Russia? The British would fight for a long time.
Japan's historical distortion, historical revisionism, is too absurd Germany reflects on itself Germany teaches history accurately The Japanese should emulate Germany Come to Korea and study There is a lot of historical evidence
For Japan to hold Korea , you need 2 people to dissapper. First is Admiral YI. Japan needs to have a better navy and admirals to hold Korea. 2nd is Tokugawa. In our timeline, It is Tokugawa and his family that will bring Japan to the 19th century by closing all trade and contact with foreigners. He is the reason Japan did not try again after Admiral Yi died
One reason Hideyoshi wants to conquer Korea is because Japan has not enough land for making samurai's fiefdom Like during that period of time, high ranking samurais are usually awarded a piece of their own land, something like a village or even a county, or a castle as reward for their compentence during battle I'd assume Korea will be divided if Hideyoshi didn't die that quick... Northern Korea getting carved into new samurai fiefdoms and Japanese knowledge plus influence will start spreading, and maybe Southern Korea forming a united nation under the name of Toyotomi Something like Japanese style of architechture and temples will pop up in Korea in the next decade, assuming Toyotomi is going to replace those Korean-Chinese style of "cities" and buildings with new Japanese castles built for samurais that are going to own the place; the north is given to samurais as they can help defend possible Ming and Manchurian invasion but also not hindering Toyotomi's influences, while Toyotomi stays at the south as it's closer to Toyotomi's own fiefdom.
Hideyoshi trough it could be a easy win, that's why he decided to use his own forces. It's not like anyone could've expected to find one of the most brilliant generals of all times as a oponent, lol.
If you think Japan's Warring States period was very charming, I suggest paying more attention to the wars between the Ming and Qing dynasties, including the firing of tens of thousands of firearms. The Ming dynasty had artillery weighing up to 400 pounds, as well as dragon cavalry equipped with firearm guns. The Qing artillery even quoted trigonometric knowledge
I think there was another possibility that you missed. During the Qing-Ming wars, Japan could back the Ming. Maybe their fleet cooperates with the Ming fleet, or maybe they sends a garrison to defend the (new) Ming capital, or maybe they even open a second front to back of the Qing. Eventually as the Japanese get better firearms, traditional Qing lands could become their "Wild West".
They were going to do that, but Koxinga's father surrendered first before the Shimazu clan could send their army. Ming remnants were desperate, an Emperor even made his heir the prince a Catholic Christian in hope that the west may form a crusade against the barbaric Qing. There's still a letter requesting pope for aid in the Vatican today.
@@publiuska2204 Interesting, I did not know any of that. But wouldn't the Manchus get in conflict with the Japanese earlier in this timeline? And could that skew the war if, unlike Koreans in OTL, Japanese Korea never agreed to pay tribute and forced the Manchus to open a two-front war?
@@shamsishraq6831 Ming in its final days was pretty weak, and there were rebellions all over the place. The capital city was in fact sacked by a rebel army first instead of the Manchus. So my guess is that Ming would still fail. Manchu people at that time were very strong and robust, and they kept the momentum going for a pretty long while. They basically fought all that can be fought in mainland east Asia, just look at their map. Before Manchu, Ming and Mongols were always fighting each other to no avail. But when Manchu appeared, it destroyed both of them. So a Japanese Korea would in fact make this a three-front war, it's defintely a challenge for the Manchus. This might stop their momentum, or not… You never know…
Nah… you failed to mention Li Zicheng, the peasant revolt leader. He was the guy that killed the last “true” Ming emperor Chongzhen and let the Qing armies inside. While the Ming were fighting against the Qing he led an expedition force from Shanxi to Beijing, during which he never experienced any meaningful battle as all Ming defenders simply surrendered, the speed at which he marched scared the emperor so much that he didn’t have time to call other armies to defend the capital and he simply killed himself. Li Zicheng basically conquered all northern China and got high with success, he allowed his troops to rampage through the city and some of them entered the residences of high officials to loot and rpe. When generals on the frontiers heard that their families were… humiliated, they chose to abandon their post and fight Li Zicheng, Wu Sangui, the guy that controlled the Shanghai Pass just allowed the Qing to pass through and joined them. So all northern Ming was already lost because Li Zicheng conquered it, and he didn’t have the ability to govern it, since his army was made up of peasants and bandits he just gave posts to people highly unqualified or left the original staff… and their original problems… So no matter what Northern Ming would always be lost. As for the “southern Ming” they beat themselves down… literally… Ma Shiying and Shi Kefa, Zuo Liangyu and the emperor… everyone wanted to gain as much power as possible doing stuff only to stop the other whether their ideas were good or bad. In fact when the Qing entered at first the Southern Ming wanted to ally with the Manchus to pacify the rebels as they were the guys who killed the previous emperor and ended northern ming… so even if Japan-korea wasn’t beaten earlier and threw themselves in to help the Ming, the Ming would probably just ignore them… forget about a Ming-Japan cooperation, even if the Japanese were willing, the Ming would pull them back.
@@publiuska2204 "an Emperor even made his heir the prince a Catholic Christian in hope that the west may form a crusade against the barbaric Qing. There's still a letter requesting pope for aid in the Vatican today." Wait what?
I just disagree with peasants wouldn't mind a Japanese lord instead. Otherwise, Mongolians and Chinese would have been more successful when they managed to invade the Korean peninsula in the past. Defining that era as feudal is very strange for that part of the world. Even "feudal" Japan wasn't really feudal. Feudal-like maybe, but not really. Peasants would form militias/righteous army and fight back the Japanese in constant guerrilla warfare. So even if you give Hideoshi more 10 years, he would be plagued by constant revolts in the peninsula which would be a drain to his tenuous control of both Japan and Korea. It would be more realistic to instead of fully conquering Korea and have a Japanese bureaucracy controlling the peninsula would've been to have a puppet Korean king instead and vassalize Korea. This would still leave Korea as a buffer against Jurchen and Ming while having indirect control of Korea and he could concentrate his attentions on reforming Japan to consolidate power. It would be as prestigious to have Korea as a vassal. The successor could try annexing Korea later, but I feel like Japan wasn't quite there to fully annex and assimilate Korea like they would do with Ryukyu and Hokkaido later. I don't think they would be capable of that at the time. With their system at the time, they would have a hard time to keep Korea in the long term. It is more probable that Korea would eventually be free. The Qing didn't try to absorb Korea even thou they won against Joseon. They were fine with tributary relationship and recognition of legitimacy over the Ming. I mean, I think you need way more caveats to justify total Japanese control of Korea than just have peasants accepting a new lord. Legitimacy is also a thing even for peasants. Maybe have them marry with local aristocracy and give some concessions. However, don't totally gloss over this detail.
Admiral Yi was singlehandedly the bulwark against Japan's invasion, just take him out of the equation, and Japan could easily have managed at least Korea.
Could you do a "What of King Phillip's war drove out english colonist from New England?" please? Some go back to England, some to the Southern colonies and the Caribbeans but New England doesn't exist. Maybe a Native confederation or several arise, supported by the French and Dutch. How would that impact North American History?
Personally I don't think Japan conquering China in this time period is completely unrealistic. Whether they'd be able to hold all their new territories with their internal divisions is another matter, but while the Ming army was certainly large, they had their own issues too. I mean as you mentioned, they fell to the Manchus not too long after this, so I don't see why Japan couldn't have done something similar, whether in one big war or in a few wars to solidify control over Korea first. Though if they had I would imagine the conquest would change Japan as much if not more than it would change China, as generally happens when a smaller polity conquers a much larger one. We see that a lot with China in particular, where a foreign army will seize control, and adapt to the many of the legal, philosophical, and religious traditions of China rather than completely uprooting them.
Ming wasn’t defeated by Machus directly, rather at the end of the Ming dynasty it was facing famine, peasant uprising (which was the actual army that took down Ming dynasty), and Manchus from northeast. The Manchus never managed to march beyond Shanhai pass before Ming collapsed.
The main reason for the fall of the Ming Dynasty was the internal rebellion, not how strong the Manchus or how weak the Ming Dynasty, including the founder of the Qing Dynasty at the time, Nurhachi was also the general of the Ming rebellion. You know that the Ming Dynasty fought with the Mongols for hundreds of years
The Japanese Warring States samurai were not as strong as advertised by Japan and Europe and America. On the Korean battlefield, the Japanese army used three times its strength to ambush China's vanguard forces. The final result was that the Japanese army lost more than 3000 people, while China lost 800 people. This ambush was called the Battle of Bitoku
@@linshitaolst4936 Do you know if this battle has any other names? I was hoping to read more about it but I can't find any mention of a battle by that name. There was a somewhat similar defeat for Japan during the Siege of Pyongyang but it doesn't look like it quite fits your description.
A possibility I find interesting is that Japan allies the protestant powers, mainly the Dutch against Spain in the 30 Years war and "liberates" the spanish Phillipines.
Would love to see a Total War like Medieval 2. The same start date and end date. Maybe a bigger map size. With mechanics from total war Pharaoh but based in Asia. Instead of making a Shogun 3 and a sequel to three kingdoms . Include the mongols (as they invade both countries during medievals time period) and also add Korea as well as other factions outside of China like Vietnam and some of those island kingdoms. And like Pharaoh your goal is to pick a culture and make an empire. Essentially get to replay history or rewrite it entirely.
The Ming fell shortly afterwards though which you didn't take into account. The Ming might tolerate Japan as their empire was highly problematic, the Qing would not.
Wrong, you are referring to a short period of fifty years. The fall of the Ming Dynasty had little to do with the Korean War, the main reason was the discontent of the people due to the internal problems of the government and the fact that the Ming government accidentally killed the father of Nurhachi, the founder of the Qing Dynasty, leading to the rebellion of Nurhachi, who was a Ming official at the time.
This “shorty” =half a century . The Ming dynasty spent a total of 7 million taels of silver in seven years fight Japan. and spent more than 5 million taels per year from 1618 to 1644 to fight with the Jurchen. The Jurchen, the rebels, and the economic and climate crisis were the main reasons for the fall of the Ming , the Japanese were insignificant.
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love your videos man, where did you get the inspiration for a japanese video?
new theory: what if ishida mitsunari wins the battle of sekigahara which means there wont be an edo period
The Ming and Manchus/Qing would be much more receptive to European technologies and innovations
China, Korea and Japan would Industrialized Centuries earlier!!!
Worldwide technological development increases as Asians and Europeans push each other to Innovate and Grow Stronger!
what if the Revolutions of 1848 succeeded
What if the Dutch Revolution the Greek Revolution and the American Revolution and the Revolution of the Spanish America and the France Revolution and the Revolutions of 1848 All failed
Contrary to popular belief, Admiral Yi actually died of back pain after carrying the entire Joseon military
Lumbago
He was shoot by the chest by a japanese arquabus sniper.
You are understating it, he carried not only the Joseon military but the entirety of Korea himself.
If there ever was a Korean Jesus, Admiral Yi Sun-shin was the man.
@@ramonsalvaleon2616it was a joke
@@MoMapping It'$ real fact.
4:50 regarding Admiral Yi Sun Shin, he was actually demoted by corrupt officials and rivals in the Korean courts multiple times and had to work his way back up from scratch. Korea was actually incredibly lucky to have such an insanely skilled and dedicated commander at the time, but it was very possible that he could have just given up on a military career, or had his reputation so thoroughly destroyed that he couldn't rise again.
Yet from that Korean flits were way bigger and they had massive fire arms japanese needs to go close to the ship and have a siege without Yi I think korean navy would do better than the japanes navy
@@Lonewolfdebnf The Joseon navy outside of Yi's command was absolutely destroyed, every time command was awarded to a lesser admiral the Japanese would annihilate the Korean navy.
Now, I think there's a strong argument that even without the Korean navy, the Japanese still could not defeat the combined Ming and Joseon forces. If that is your argument, then I understand, but if you are trying to argue that there was a better admiral in Korea than Yi Sun Shin, than I must disagree. I don't even think Admiral Nelson could have pulled off what Yi did, and Nelson has a statue in Trafalgar square.
@@1perspective286 Yi is considered as a national hero in Korea
@@pops1cle187 Well-earned
Relying solely on Yi Sun Shin to defend a port cannot save South Korea, but it still depends on the performance of the Ming Dynasty army on land
I believe language-wise, Korea has a reversed Norman situation where the mainland language and the Japanese language intermingle
There are some Korean theories that claim it was the horse riders from ancient Korea who conquered and unified Japan. Generally, it is said that there are two kinds of peoples in Japan, the local Jomon and the immigrant Yayoi. Jomon contributed mostly the prehistoric Japan, while the Yayoi made up most of feudal Japanese nobility. But most Japanese scorn these theories.
@@publiuska2204 Well, both Korean and Japanese has a lot of simmilarities with Turkic and Mongolic, so they probably are either related or from the same Sprachraum
@@adidoki that theory has been disproved. Korean & Japanese and Turkic & Mongolic are not of the same family.
Further the early samurai were said to be Northern barbarians. Which makes the Ainu the most likely candidate but still unproved
@@adidoki No way.
No tgey are both languages that do not come from a greater language family. They have many common words but tge core remains distinct, and those commonalities come from many years of cultural exchange between tge chinese, koreans and japanese
I take issue with a certain part of your scenario: In the period where the Ming collapse, Japan would undoubtably intervene as well. It's very much a toss up whether they would succeed in their invasion, but given the choice between the (in sinocentric terms) barbarian Manchu and the at least semi-civilized Japanese, a lot of the Ming defectors from our timeline might just side with the Japanese instead.
Nah… before beating the crap out of the Ming the Manchu beat the crap out of the Koreans, forced them to change allegiance and never help the Ming and the Manchu weren’t really expansionistic. So the Japan-Korea would probably fight the Manchu, lose badly, find no reason to support the Ming after their failures, recognize the Qing as their sovereign and pay tribute as if nothing changed.
Ming remnants were honestly small, quite scattered and never made any significant resistance because after the suicide of Chongzhen and all his direct descendants the “Northen Ming” was embroiled in court treachery and machinations to find the “true heir”, so all resistance against the Qing were labeled as “rebels”.
Honestly nothing would change much until the Europeans in the 1800 as both the Qing and probably the Japan#Korea would also be pretty secluded and isolationist. Then in the 1900 instead of taking Korea they could maybe take Manchuria, maybe splitting it with the Russians, accelerating the demise of the Qing. But mostly things would have stayed the same.
@@gianniwu6564 What you fail to take into account here is the reason why the Manchu managed to beat the Koreans so soundly: Guns. The Manchu, early on, were effective because they figured out really good strategies and formations in gunpowder-based warfare.
Now, take a guess what the Japanese had been doing towards the end of the Sengoku period? Figuring out really good strategies for gun warfare and even drilling their troops in ways comparable to the same kind of bureaucratic warfare the Europeans were figuring out around the same time.
Also: Who the hell was talking about Ming LOYALISTS??? I was talking about the generals and troops that betrayed the Ming and bolstered the ranks of the Manchu.
Basically, what I'm saying is that your assumption that the Manchu faring the same against Japan-Korea as against the Koreans and then everything just staying mostly the same is very much not a given. Now, is it a given that Japan just beats up everyone and takes over China? Absolutely not. It'd be pretty much a toss-up whether the Manchu manage to contain the Japanese, mostly contingent on the effectiveness of either party's leadership by that point (a few decades are enough to butterfly things like that)
@@yannickluecker3983 the Ming generals that sided with the Qing was because they were promised that their positions would be left unchanged and that they could keep all the gains of their battles. That’s why they were so courageous during battles. They weren’t fighting anymore for an empire but themselves. At most after they had looted enough they would stop intervening, but I don’t see them fighting against the Qing anytime soon. Even Wu Sangui and the other warlords revolted only after Kangxi wanted to take back their positions. So as long as the Manchu can offer them the most they would probably stand by.
And then Korea was beaten because they were unprepared. The Manchus were still nomadic, even though the Korean Manchu border is short you can’t defend every single spot, in our timeline when the border seemed okay Korean kings would just reduce their garrisons there to save money. As soon as the Japan-korea reduced the garrisons the Manchu would come, if they increased the Manchu would feel in danger and attack first. The Ming had to stop them 3 times and even killed their king, but they just came back… for 10 years. Japan Korea wouldn’t be able to shoulder the costs and sooner or later would cut ties with the Ming and pay tributes to the Qing. In fact their surrender was quite lenient, just cut ties with the Ming and recognize us as the patron nation, practically for the Koreans nothing changed, continue paying your tributes and stop helping the other nation.
@@yannickluecker3983 and honestly I think it would be more probable that the Koreans, disillusioned after the failure of the Ming to protect them, side with the Manchu to kick out the Japanese.
To Ming, Japan was not a part of civilized world. Too them Manchus and Japan were equally barbaric
Since the Korean beaurocracy was trying so hard to destory admiral Yi, a timeline without him would be very plausible.
as long as a untied Chinese Empire existed, Japan had no chance to take thr entier Korea alone,
Qing Japanese War
Treaty of Shimonoseki
Russo Japanese War
1910 Korea annexed
1911 NOW China collapses/disunites.
@@Emilechen Chinese didn't have exp compare to Japan solders
@@Terheweren’t they fresh of a civil war?
Yi Sun Shi was so badass that he had to be completely erased from this scenario for Japan to have any chance at winning
Well, as long Yu Sun Shi lives Japan as absoluty no chance of winning lol
@@paonippobemduro actually there probably was, if japan managed to last long enough to consolidate enough bases in korea, they won't need the ships from japan, of course this breaks the chain of command a bit but if all goes well, then yi sun sin becomes reduced to a very shrewd pirate who managed to get some territories under him but is otherwise eventually manageable, one way or another.
@@Cecilia-ky3uw That's Impossible, trough. The japanese tried it, but they have no chance in a long-term run if their supply fleets and reinforcements keeps getting destroyed by the admiral. Alas, the koreans had their land army which only keeps growing because of the state of emergency, and consolidating control over a population which you have no claim to rule over is also hell. Before any such thing, they would've need to destroy the Korean government and absorve it's nobles to consolide rule. All in all, it's impossible to conquer Korea as long Yu sun shi lives or is free (when he got imprisioned, the japanese campaign advanced a lot).
@@paonippobemduro My point was simply that most of the problem was supplies which would be solved if they just set up the supply lines at the front, that is consolidating korean lands.
even without Yi Sunshi, Chineses force will defeat the Japaneses in Korea and put them back to their island,
China would never tolerate a great power in its North-East border,
2:00 that point has fallen out of favour among historians because most of the samurai that Toyotomi Hideyoshi sent to Korea were from clans that were loyal to him, while the less loyal ones (who were more likely to rebel) stayed in Japan.
Well that was stupid. Did they just refuse to go. He should have sent the samurai en masse to the peninsula, gothic tribe style.
@@presidenttogekiss635 easier said than done. Samurai are the kind of people who would gut themselves if they shame themselves. imagine trying to get them to do something they really don't want to do.
@@groomschild1617 That´s true, it would be useful to pay into their shame "Are you too much of a coward to go to Korea and fight? Do you rather stay here in this cozy place? Coward".
@@presidenttogekiss635 yeah in theory that could work but this was in the era before printing press, mass media and social media. so it was a lot harder to anonymously shame a person.
A person would have to go up to a samurai's face and call him a coward. Good luck with your chances of survival in that case
@@groomschild1617 China, my brother, why do we fight each other? We are one people to liberate our brothers, Yajuh and Magog, and destroy the world with us
Honestly here are some ideas about this scenario.
1) If Japan manages to hold Korea I would imagine the japanese would want to integrate korean culture into Japan, I'd imagine the relations between Japan and Korea would be a bit like England and Scotland maybe? Lots of back and forth between the peninsula and the islands with sizeable japanese minorities in Korea and sizable korean minorities in Japan.
2) If Japan only somewhat manages to hold onto Korea I'd imagine that Japan could only hold onto south-east Korea like Busan, maybe Fuzan (Busan) would become a gateway for Japan into continental asia? or perhaps like a japanese hong kong?
3) If Japan completely is incompetent I like to imagine a korean general or maybe even Yi Sun-Shin himself leading an uprising against the japanese, maybe potentially even establishing a japanese-style shogunate with the Yi family controlling a militarized agressive Korea?
Your third point would make for a really good book or movie
Would make a dope anime. Unfortunately there is am extreme lack of anime about actual Asian history. Its an untapped gold mine I think due to the fact that many Asian people may not have faith in the commercial success of thier own medieval history in the west. But the Netflix horror/historical drama "Kingdom" is proof that it can be done. Now we should just remove the zombies and add speculative history
The Yi Syogunate... a dreadful time where a beloved hero could become an effective authority meant to isolate Joseon from barbarians
So number 3 is basically the return of the Goryeo dynasty.
I'd imagine that a more unified Korea may even be able to conquer Japan from the inside, as to make Korean Shoguns
Always gonna keep the support, bro! Keep it going!!
It took Mongols over 60 years to conquer a fragmented China so I doubt Japan could do it against a unified China. Not only that, Japan's main veteran armies were already struggling against Ming's expeditionary forces and had to fight most of their battles in castles. They hardly managed to survive open land battles so it's highly unlikely they can invade Ming's full armies.
ming is not united. mongolia controlled most of the modern northern china including inner mongolia.
@@QWERTY-gp8fd Ming during the 1592s is pretty much unified. For most of Chinese history the map is similar to how it was during Ming. Only under Qing and modern china did the size grew to include northern asia and mongolia.
@@Jake-dh9qk china never controlled mongolia
@@QWERTY-gp8fd Qing did tho
@@Jake-dh9qk yes but qing is not china. we are talking about china.
3:00 I love how when this guy explain how Japan invasion was repelled, he manage to completely neglect the massive support from China 😅
I am 100000% sure whenever this channel uploads the vidoe is ALWAYS REALLLLLLY GOOD, and this one is no exeption! Great work, deserves respect.
What if Sweden won the great northern war.
world peace
@Xcrysis unfortunately your probably right, but if enough things were tweaked it would be possible.
THANK YOU! I have been waiting forever for someone to touch on this scenario.
Even in a scenario in which Hideyori was able to build a Japanese empire, it is doubtful that Japan would ultimately be able to assimilate Korea. Due to high tax rates and class discrimination, the relationship between Japan and Korea may be similar to that between the UK and Ireland. According to this assumption, Korea may become independent in the 20th century, but the southeastern part of the Korean Peninsula may remain Japanese territory.
Second, in the case of a scenario in which Hideyori is defeated in a civil war and the empire collapses, the Toyotomi family may flee to Korea. It is likely that this would go in a similar direction to the Norman conquest of England. Although Toyotomi and daimyo of Japanese origin replace the Korean ruling class, they may be assimilated into Koreans in the long run as their numbers are small and further migration from Japan is limited.
However, in order for the second scenario to come true, the surrounding conditions and the diplomatic situation must be well matched. At worst, they may be besieged by the newly formed Japanese shogunate, the Jurchen khan or Chinese emperor (possibly the same person?), and uncooperative local Koreans, making their rule unstable.
korea tax = 90% japan tax = 12%
Japan cannot occupy North Korea, and the Ming Dynasty will not allow her vassal state to be taken away
6:20 "ordinary Koreans will not care too much even if they were ruled by Koreans or the Japanese".......
That's the greatest false assumption you made. The highlight of the Imgin war is the Japanese getting surprised by the Korean laymen who cared and hated to be ruled by Japanese. Numerous peasant and laymen organized guerillas happened to the surprise of Japan.
Yes. The Japanese raided and pillaged the countryside and robbed the peasantry. The Korean peasantry literally referred to the Japanese as Bandits because of how much looting and rape they were doing.
That because Japanese soldiers act hostile and most story filled with Nationalist Narrative and Rethoric who Exargatted lot of things.
Interesting
This. This guy doesn't seem to know Korean culture and history as he should if he wants to talk about it. Smh
so true, I don't think any peasant would be happy if some foreign, almost "barbarian" people, strolled into their village to rape, kill, and steal from said peasant, then claim that the peasant is now under the rule of the "barbarians".
Hi, I love your channel, you do very well structured alternate history scenarios that are fleshed out. I've been binge watching/listening lately and plan on going through them all. You definitely deserve more subscribers.
Very good video, glad that you took in one of my ideas! :D
Yeah Admiral Yi basically carried Korea into beating Japan away lol, and with him gone it's honestly surprising to hear that the Manchus would be rivalling with the Japanese, but it was quite welcomed to see the Ming and Manchus working together for some time. Also yeah Japanese rule over Korea was basically nigh impossible considering the death of Hideyoshi would just mean another civil war, and Ming would just reaffirm Korean independence after that. Both the successful and failed scenarios were both very cool to listen to, with the failed conquest maybe leading to a Christian Japan becoming quite based lol.
Another idea I have is what if Li Zicheng didn't die immediately after defeating the Ming? Basically he's kinda like Toyotomi Hideyoshi where he starts out as a peasant, but instead he leads a peasant rebellion into Beijing and begins the Shun dynasty... Before it collapsed a year into his death after losing the battle of Shanhai Pass against the Ming loyalists and a Manchu Prince. What if he had won the battle? Forcing the loyalists into Manchuria and pushing the Manchus out of China temporarily, and implementing his pseudo-socialistic ideology earlier into China, could he and his dynasty have successfully reformed China into a modern powerhouse before the Brits started to drug peddle? Or would the Manchu still have returned and conquered China and bring it into the century of humuliation? Would love to see you do a video on it lol.
Also, the Qing is not pronounced as 'Hsing', more like 'Ching', anyways see ya when you post next time lol
nah… Li Zicheng would have never succeeded because he never knew or thought about how to govern, he was just a rascal and a bandit. His motto was literally “ I am coming open the gates, I won’t set taxes and take your food”. His only source of income was looting whatever was left of the Ming’s “inheritance”. In fact he lost to the Manchus because according to texts his soldiers after sacking Beijing took off their armor to wear silk robes and left their spears for vases.
@@gianniwu6564 Still, it would've definitely been much better than Qing rule imo, would've been interesting to see a Shun dynasty that could potentially reform China than one that we already know failed. Maybe he holds off long enough for another good official/governor to rise up and beat his ass idk, but the Manchus should've stayed beyond the walls
@@yeeyee5057 honestly Qing rule wasn’t that bad, there is a reason why they were the guys that brought China to its biggest territorial and population size. They were just incompetent… but they were never evil.
In fact they fixed taxes, like every family has to pay a certain amount independently from size, so people weren’t taxed heavily; every time there was a natural disaster the emperor would always give relief; the emperors were the most disciplined in history, when they had sex the eunuchs would count time and as soon as the time was up the woman would be dragged out of the room, they could only take three bites out of every food and from a young age they had to learn everything about government and previous emperors.
Now there also problems, like by never increasing taxes government revenue never increased so they could never do any RED and smaller officials often had to set some “fees” in order to maintain expenses and themselves, fostering corruption. The emperor would give relief, but the relief had to be brought from other regions to the affected area, during which some of it would “get lost”, eaten by “rats and birds”, when it arrived government officials had to “check” it, then it would be given to city officials to “distribute”, until only some of the relief would actually be helpful.
By learning past emperors they never had any will to change.
So yeah, by modern standards they were bad, incompetent and stubborn, but by Ming and previous dynasties’s standard they were all competent enough or excellent.
The timeline until the Battle of Shanhaiguan was the same, so if the Qing army passed Shanhaiguan, it would be difficult for Li Zicheng to win.
It is better to consider taking the Great Wall before the Qing army advances than winning against the Manchu cavalry in the field.
@@shinfeinrozava9468 fair enough, though also hoping that the generals manning the great wall also aren't such Ming loyalists they'd let Barbarian forces take China
The identity of Korea and Korean nationalism goes pretty deep even in 16th century. The major push back from the sea was Admiral Yi for sure but the other push back on the land was the guerilla fighting force of the righteous army. To explain righteous army is a hard one so to keep it simple, they were the Confucianism-noble lead peasant force who were pissed at Japanese invaders for bad treatment and so forth. Calling 16th century Korea and China a feudal is wrong, they had absolute monarchs.
Let me simplify this video for you. If Chinese troop sit at border and didn’t help korea, the scenario in the video would happen. But in reality Chinese support more than doubled Korean side’s fighting capability on the ground, Chinese army led most of the offensive operations to retake Japanese controlled land. I love how this man manage to talk about “repelling Japanese invasion” while completely neglecting the contribution from the Chinese 😅
Right, the military intervention of the Ming Dynasty was the reason for turning the tide of the war. Yi 's turtle boat cannot fight on land.
The answer: Japan would have lost Korea after a few years
"Japan's history starts with the Sengoku period"
It's like saying that India's history starts with the Dutch East India Company.... you miss out key parts such as Heien period, Asuka period, Kamakura and Nara periods...
Actually portuguese were the first to come to India not dutch or you are confused between india and indonesia
I always wonder when an alternate history about the Imjin War would come out the moment I get to know alternate history is a thing, glad that my question has been answered.
Japan will understand the need for naval power. Just as Imperial Japan in the 20th century needs to be expanding its borders to protect its homeland. This would allow the Shogun to give land to successful Daimayos and a stronger Japanese navy, might lead to clash with Spanish Philippines or if they go north, clashing with Russia and Japan Alaska.
Japan's successful industrialization relied on overthrowing the rule of shogunate generals, while China only overthrew the rule of feudal emperors in 1911
Don’t underestimate jurchens who conquered China
Wow , I love how you always surprise with new and interesting scenarios
great vid like always
The reason why the Imjin Wars (Imjin/Bunroku 1592-1593 and Chongyu/Keicho 1597-1598) ended is because the Japanese kampaku Toyotomi Hideyoshi died in 1598. The Japanese daimyos no longer had any reason to stay in Korea, so they withdrew.
In order to explore an alternate history where Japan won the Imjin Wars, you need to make the biggest rewrite of history where Toyotomi Hideyoshi wouldn’t have died in 1589. That means Tokugawa Ieyasu would not have become shogun, and there wouldn’t have been an Edo shogunate. There wouldn’t have been a Meiji Restoration and the modernization of Japan in the 19th century. It’s possible Japan would have been carved up by 19th century colonial powers the same way China and the rest of Asia fell.
But what of Korea and the short-term alternate history in the late 16th and early 17th centuries?
Hideyoshi’s plan was to secure Korea as a land route to fold out a campaign against Ming China. He would have been happy to consider Korea a footnote to award to his vassal daimyos, if he could get his own trophy.
As much as sentiments are rife with the idea that grassroots resistance would have made any kind of occupation a miserable failure, that’s not how feudalism works. The peasantry was there to be taxed, and that was it. So, say, if Gyeonsang province was award to Mori Terumoto, Terumoto would appoint some local Korean official as the tax collector. He’d be told, “You can collect as much taxes as you want. Just give me the amount that’s due for me.” Greed wins, and it’s the Korean tax collector who’d be oppressing the people. (You know it, because this happens in real history.) When the local rebellion happens, it’s the Korean tax collector who’s hung naked from his ankles with his nose chopped off.
As for whether Hideyoshi succeeds in conquering Ming China and its consequences, though, that’s a separate piece of alternate history to explore.
i've been looking for this everywhere
The confrontation of two big powers (with a big coast), Japan and China would be extremely interesting in the following centuries as it may force them to open to modernity to take of the threat
In Chinese history, there were three dynasties that fought against Japan: the Tang Dynasty, the Ming Dynasty, and the Qing Dynasty. Only the Qing Dynasty lost to Japan, or rather, the feudal agricultural countries lost to the capitalist industrialized countries
A very interesting and informative video.
Very nice and informative and detailed video
i love how insanely good yi was that he has to be removed from history from japan to win
I learned about Admiral Yi from Extra History, and that earned my respect for such a remarkable, loyal man. Admiral Yi Sun-Shin was truly one of the greatest admirals in the world
Great video.
An interesting scenario this made me think of was what if China managed to keep the Europeans out of China by mobilizing the empire against foreign occupation.
I think this could lead to a china as advanced as Japan was in the early 1900s which would be a profound shift in East Asian affairs
One of the big issues China faced was also technology and idea adoption. China refused to trade anything by except for silver and notoriously referred to European technologies such as guns, ships, compasses, maps, etc as “barbarian trinkets”. This is the opposite of how Japan viewed them. Oda Nobunaga was so largely successful because of his appreciation of European guns and proper military structure and later, the Meiji Restoration went all out on adopting European ideas and technologies. China had viewed itself as the centre of the world for thousands of years. I don’t really see a way around this glaring flaw. China was rapidly becoming a sick man but refused to believe it. Unfortunately I almost feel that by the time the conflicts with the Europeans happened, it was inevitable. That alternate history would probably have to start much earlier, probably around the Ming Treasure Voyages.
@@ScuffTuff i’ve seen a lot of evidence that says that it was a breakdown of regional and national bureaucracies from coordination that led to China, not being able to bring its full forces to bear during European incursions.
Even if China lacked the technological supremacy of the Europeans, which is questionable, the Chinese outnumber the europeans, almost 100 to 1. And had it not been for the Taiping rebellion, which pretty much gutted the legitimacy of the central government, it is very likely that China would have been able to conduct enough internal reforms, to remain the hegemon of east Asia.
@@amk4956 It is not questionable that china was technologically inferior. It is simply fact. China repeatedly and massively outnumbered European forces in its battles against them and was humiliated time and time again.
@@joshwenn989 so from a technological standpoint, it is true that China had inferior guns and ships however, they had superior manufacturing capabilities and internal transportation infrastructure systems that is fully utilized, even with a technological disparity in weapons, should have been able to force the Europeans from China, however, due to a whole host of internal issues from a time of peace and the decentralization of the bureaucracy, it was practically speaking impossible for there to be a situation where the full force of China could be brought to bear against the Europeans prior to the entire Chinese system imploding during the Taipei rebellion.
@Prairie Fire as u can see by the Russian loss against the Germans in ww.
I don't think that that would have happened.
Had Japan won the war, there would be no Imjin War, as it is the Korean name of the war, it would be instead called the Bunroku War which is derived from its Japanese name Bunroku no eki.
Well done, sir.
I really enjoyed the video
To be honest, there have been quite a few exceptional rulers in history, be it militarily or politically. For example Ismail, Babur or Carolus Rex, Alexander the Great or Baldwin of Jerusalem. So if we were to put Hideyori Toyotomi on the same level as them in the needed apsects, it doesn't seem to unrealistic for him to hold it together
Due to the opening of the new shipping route, Europe gained capital accumulation. Due to the rise of the bourgeoisie, Europe started the Renaissance Movement, and feudal nobles were suppressed. From that moment on, Europe gradually led Asia. Europe's success was based on a variety of coincidences
@anon_148 However, medieval Europe has always lagged behind the East Asian dynasties
What if Hideyoshi instead of attacking Korea decides that the Europeans are too much of a threat and expands south, as well as reinforcing the north?
The Matsumae clan upon receipt of the Matsumae Domain and the reinforcing northern Daimyo are able to negotiate a vassalization treaty with the Ainu peoples (Hokkaido, Shakalin, Kuriels, Kamchatka Peninsula), like the one the Shimazu & Satsuma clans will shortly place on the Ryukyu kingdoms, coastal trade cities, military and international policy in return for local devolved rule and tribute. This gives Hideyoshi access to gold (~100 tons) and Silver (~1000 tons) from Monbetsu as well as silver, Iron, and copper from Muroran, not to mention furs, fish, etc.
The Wakō pirate purge leading up to the Imjin War doesn't take place, instead, they are used for their sailing ability and local knowledge of Taiwan & northern Philippines.
William Adams agrees to teach European shipbuilding & seamanship to the Japanese, as well as negotiating trade agreements with protestant nations (UK/Netherlands...) who view this as a chance to weaken the Catholics without spilling Protestant blood and while earning gold whilst also giving them a chance to take India & the spice islands.
For a casus belli, Catholics (Portuguese & Spanish) go too far with slaving & proselytizing & other disruptive activities, leading to priests being executed for inciting a rebellion (an early Shimabara rebellion) causing a demand for compensation from the Catholic nations under threat of war, Hideyoshi cannot seem weak so he redirects the Imjim invasion force and prepares the navy.
The Shimazu & Satsuma clans depart first to vassalize Ryukyu, including Taiwan, if it fails to allow passage of the Japanese navy to the Philippines.
15:45 "To the north there is land that is currently unowned."
I think the Ainu (who inhabited Hokkaido, Sakhalin, and the Kurils) and the Black Water Mohe (who inhabited Khabarovsk) might object to that characterization.
Great video. For future reference, "Q" in Chinese is closer to a "ch" sound, so the Qing would be pronounced kind of like "Ching", not "Xing".
I think something like the relationship Sweden and Finland have would develop. Finland was part of Sweden for so long that until Russia conquered it it wasn't even thought of as a different country. In spite of this, the Finnish language and culture never disappeared. Something similar would happen here, because the Japanese would need a class of Korean-speaking officials to interact with the population. Also some minor Korean nobles might see an opportunity and intermarry with and adopt the new conquerors' culture in order to advance in society. So even if the upper nobles of Japanese Korea would be socially and culturally almost identical to their insular equivalent, for the lower levels I think it would be very different. The lower nobles would to be bilingual or be local Koreans who got their titles by working with the Japanese. for commoners, Japanese might be the majority in some big cities and maybe along the southern coast? But over time I feel like they would develop a different identity as they would be a mix of assimilated Koreans and descendants of settlers who have been living alongside and intermarrying with Koreans for generations, to the point that even if they speak the same language they would have less in common with their insular cousins than with their Korean neighbours.
There are similarities, but unlike Finland, Korea already has a long history as a kingdom even though it was conquered in 1592.
intetesting comparison
If the people higher in the social caste adopt japanese culture, it would certainly spread to people below,thats how it is always been in feudal societies
Korea at that time still use chinese for writing altho a certain king made the korean alphabet, they didnt use it and even scorned it
For 3 centuries its impossible for more than half the peninsula to not be japanized, and once industrialization comes, it will be even faster
Since Hideyoshi did not see Korea as an opponent and was not interested in the invasion, it would be most likely that Tokugawa Iejasu would be made supreme commander of the invasion forces. In reality, the Tokugawa and their allies did not take part in the invasion and thus had the largest remaining armies in Japan. Iejasu was a genius strategist and commander in contrast to Hideyoshi who was an incompetent fool. The Japanese army that invaded Korea was also not a unified centralized army. There were many different clan armies in Korea, some of which attacked and fought each other. Featuring Iejasu as the supreme commander and all of Japan's ronin as Tokugawa soldiers. If the invasion had been successful in any case. Either way, Hideyoshi would not have survived long after the invasion of Korea ended. The Tokugawa would definitely have come to power. Iejasu might even have forced Korea's peaceful submission. Japanese and Koreans would have fought together against the Chinese and the Jurchen. Under the Tokugawa shogunate, which would also have control of Korea, Japan would probably have continued to expand and modernize. Japan's self-isolation would probably have taken place anyway.
That's very likely
Calling Hideyoshi a incompetent fool is too much lol. No one really could've stood any chance against the Korean admiral.
@@paonippobemdurothere was a pirate king that helped the mori clan become one of the biggest clan in their region, and also the biggest naval power
Unfortunately he refused to serve hideyoshi
@@smolensky06969 Well, the japanese army really didn't have much of a supply of competent naval officers, but Hideyoshi built a lot of Atakebunes, the navy responsible for destroying the Mori fleet you mentioned, also, Hideyoshi used his own forces and funds in a war he expected to be quick and easy so he would expand his domain and put pressure in his main rival, Tokugawa Leyasu. Of course, he should've equipped his naval forces better and invested more in naval technology before his compaign, but he still did invest a lot to the point that the chances of sucess were really high, also, Hedeyoshi trough he would win cuz he expected that most battles could've been land ones, while he trough the enemy naval army would simply end obliterated with sheer numbers and classic japanese boarding tactics by using a sturdy fleet, he obviously didn't expect that a excepcional naval officer capable of obliterating his entire army with ingenious tactics would be in the enemy army.
@paonippobemduro Yi Sun shin could only defend one port, and to be precise, he did not hinder the Japanese army's advance speed on the Korean Peninsula. The front battlefield was entirely completed by the Chinese army
Nice one!
"no noble blood?" is like "no bitches" but for hideyoshi
Even if Toyotomi successfully managed to conquer Joseon, the Korean peninsula would soon have broken away from the direct rule of Japanese shogunates during the Sekigahara War. Afterwards, the Korean peninsula would have become much like the Sengoku era of Japan, without any central power to dominate the entire peninsula.
As Korean what I can confirm with your comment is that 16th century was when Koreans solidified their national identity and China-Korea central ideology settled, so it would be impossible to annex the entire peninsula into their direct territory.
@@qdlbp
장담하기 어렵습니다. 소중화와 같은 사상은 사대부들 사이에선 인기있었으나 평민과 노비들에게는 별다른 의미를 가지지 못했고, 사대부들뿐 아니라 평민과 천민들까지 모두 조선이란 국가로 결집시켰던 이씨 왕조에 대한 충성심은 그 이씨 왕조가 한 번이라도 완전히 패퇴하여 왕실의 정통성이 끊긴다면 유지될 수 없는 것이었죠.
임진왜란 기간 조선인들 중 일본으로 건너간 경우나 반대로 왜군 중 조선에 정착한 경우가 모두 적잖은 비율로 존재했다는 건 시사하는 바가 큽니다. 당대 조선이 항왜 정치체로서 움직였던 건 구심점이 될 선조와 조정이 끝내 왜군에게 잡히지 않은 채 버텨냈기 때문이고, 만약 조정이 무너진 상황이라면 조선은 잠깐 도요토미의 지배하에 놓였다가, 도요토미의 몰락 이후로는 임란기 조선반도에 진출한 일본계 다이묘와 (구) 조선의 관리 등이 서로 이합집산해 경쟁하는 삼국지 비슷한 모양새를 연출했을 가능성이 크죠. 당연히 전란기를 거칠 테니 유교적 영향이 감소하고 상무 정신도 훨씬 강해졌을 테고, 전체적으로 동시대의 만주~몽골 지역과 유사한 역사적 경로를 따르게 되지 않았을까 싶습니다.
거기서 이제 이순신같은 명장들이 끝까지 살아남아 난세를 제압하고 새로운 국가를 만들면 명청교체기 중국의 혼란상을 틈타 동아시아의 강대국으로 나아갔을 테고, 그러지 못하면 지금 중국에 속한 만주처럼 분열된 채 지지부진하다가 정체성을 잃고 중원을 정리한 청나라에게 정복당해 중국의 일부가 되었을 테구요..
The Ming Dynasty will not allow Japan to occupy its vassal state
I'll say this for the algorithm: Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Lol The algorithm is how I found you and your depth on these videos is awesome!
Considering how the mongol rule of korea went, I doubt japan could have done much to hold the peninsula
Thank you
Love the Chinese umbilical cord on the thumbnail 😂
Cool video 😎
This is awesome! Love this scenario! Meow!!
What if the ottomans recreated the roman empire, by winning key battles, such as lepanto, the first Battle of Vienna, taking constantinople earlier, winning against Tamerlane, etc
The others possible.... Against Timur impossible
@caniblmolstr4503 i dont think so. Both Timur and Bayezid were military Geniuses and employed similar tactics, Bayezid made a mistake by thinking emotionally and chased timurtiring hus army and losing his water supply, if he stayed in Ankara or intercepted timur the Battle couldve gine both ways. Even in our timeline, the Battle of Ankara was a close Victory
@@shreksswamp5721 Almost all of Timur's battles had ana element of mind games involved.
Tokhtamyshk
Delhi Sultanate
The pile of skulls
That Bayezid losing his temper was part of Timur's strategy. Hence why I say winning against Timur is impossible. He will always find a way
@caniblmolstr4503 Yes, you are correct. Timur never lost a battle (except the time he became lame, but that was due to the idiocy of his ally). But then again, the Battle of Ankara was very close, bayezid was initially winning but was betrayed by the Karatatrs and Anatolian Beys. And to make this Timeline happen we dont even have to make timur and Bayezid fight each other, the reason Timur attacked the ottomans and raided sivas was to teach them a lesson, because Bayezid was housing the leaders of the Qara Qoyunlu. Timur was a great general, but a shitty politician and administrator, Bayezid could've come to an agreement with him. Originally, Timur didn't have any interest in the ottomans, his main goal was China.
@@shreksswamp5721 you're underestimating the guy. He very well had an ambition of becoming the next Great Khan. In this I compare him to Antigonus Monopthalmus another man of immense ambition and a physical impediment.
He thought the world was his for the taking and it was
Just watched a video on this war and now this that’s nice XD
What if France never supported Belgium's claim to the Congo.
No devil does not interfere with his servants
Hi, Thank you
This was a nice surprise!
Can you also make a similar scenario tp this about Japan becoming Christian?
Basically, *"What If Japan became a Christian Nation?"*
Then Japan's Culture will lost
@@Roberto-dw5jzno, it would be inproved
it wouldn't really be japan anymore
@@Draconic_Aura Jesus did not kill the Assyrian dragon
I would not expect it if it were the Spanish Inquisition
I don't think a slow Ming response would allow Japan to keep all korea, even if you take Yi Sun-sin out of the equation, is hard to believe Japanese would have been able to hold Pyongyang and Seoul and the rest of northern Korea indefinitely against the Chinese, they suffer from bad logistics and overstretched battle lines, theeir loses were heavy, specially after the chinese starting to take it seriously after the second battle of of Pyongyang. Japan couldn't even reach Seoul during the second invasion. China population at the time was 200 millions and Japan 12 millions, the Ming was able to send a 100k army to Korea while dealing with a Mongol and a Miao rebellion at the same time. Doesn't seems sustainable to hold all korea even if Hideyoshi lives for another decade.
Me watching PossibleHistory simplify the best naval commander in history and his absolute genius as naval harassment
Good job
Very interesting
Hello, I've always Loved History just in general, for me what-if questions are just natural... sooo many instances in past (different countries different times) where you could have a what-if...Thanx 🙏🙂🖖V3
Hideyoshi Toyotomi: lets invade Korea!
Admiral Yi: over my dead body!
Make what if oda nobunaga survived honnoji
Cool vid.
Scratching my alt history itch.
Whatifalthist is busy making humanities vids.... (witch, i am loving so damn much, but M A N, i miss alt history 😢)
Keep it up!
Alt history scenarios I'd like to see:
What if axis mass deported all the jews and people they didn't like instead of the showers and camps?
What if Japanese converted to Christianity?
What if a major European country personal unioned a marriage with a non European queen/ empress?
What if treaty of tordesillas wasn't a thing/ a diverse permanent colonial Americas and old world?
I think this video's scenario is one in which Japan converting to Christianity is a possibility.
This was interesting.
why were you so focused on korean defensive lines when it has literally natural defences that would china and the jurchen tribes.
Actually, it's pretty easy to prevent the power struggle that toppled the Toyotomi from power. Prevent Hideoshi's nephew Toyotomi Hidetsugu's death via ritualistic suicide, which only happened due to Hidetsugu being accused of organizing a coup, caused by the deterioration of relations between the two men, which might not happen with a successful Korea campaign.
Could you please reupload the Christian Persia video?
I am currently working on reworking those older video's, reuploading them with better audio/video quality so eventually it will come back up better. But here is the link to the unlisted old version so you can watch it: ua-cam.com/video/FWMy59FVcdI/v-deo.html
At 15:33, you have a Japan expanding within that small window of time; the big problem is the Spanish presence in the southern Philippines. If a savvy Japanese emperor created an alliance with the Dutch, who would love to hamper Spain's Asian colonial ambitions, then perhaps holding this expanded empire would be more doable?
As a Korean I would say two likely scenarios.
1. As Koreans don't take outsiders ruling favorably (reason they resisted against Chinese for such a long time instead of being integrated, even the Mongolians had to make a peace treaty) the Japanese would have to convince the Koreans. By a long shot since the Japanese Royal family being a branch from a Korean nobility they could have tried to convince the populace of the legitimacy.
2. There would have been an uprising against the Japanese until a someone started a new dynasty.
Because of China's non-aggression, the Korean peninsula became independent and became a vassal state of China; because of Japan's aggression, Korea was colonized by Japan for 50 years. Historically, China was stronger than Japan for 2,000 years.
@@kyuucampanello8446 China never had actual control over Korea for multiple reasons. Korea was seen as a vassal state to a tributary state depending on the time of history, but never have or had any direct control from China.
In the early days of its existence, the Ming dynasty demanded hundreds of virgins in order to subdue Joseon. In addition, Joseon had to offer specialty products, hawks, lynxes, and other symbols. Some Koreans may have suffered here, but not many. Soon enough, relations between the Ming and Joseon stabilized, and these things all but disappeared. The problem came with the Qing Dynasty.
The Qing dynasty financed its conquest of the Ming dynasty from Joseon. In the process, there was an unprecedented amount of extortion and the joeseon people were subjected to heavy suffering. However, after the 18th century, as with the Ming, these tribute demands faded as relations between the Qing and Joseon stabilized.
@@kyuucampanello8446 This is how the Chinese set up their relationship, and Joseon was more inclined to listen to them than to resist them, but there is a reason why many Koreans think they will resist Japan after watching this video. That is the difference between China and Japan. Japan has to overcome three barriers. The first barrier is the perception gap. In the Joseon worldview at the time, China was the most civilized country in the world. Japan, on the other hand, was a barbaric country on the outskirts of civilization. For example. If Britain were to be directly ruled by the United States, there would be some small-scale resistance, but I think they would accept it quickly. But if Britain was ruled by Russia? The British would fight for a long time.
'What is his legitimacy to rule, apart from having a large army?'. And all I could think was that for most conquerors, that's legitimacy enough.
What if Gustav II Adolf didn't in the battle of Lützen 1632.
*die
Wallenstein would not be so succesfull and More Protestant Germany
Not only the sunrise kingdom, the capital literally means 'Eastern Capital'.
Japan's historical distortion, historical revisionism, is too absurd
Germany reflects on itself
Germany teaches history accurately
The Japanese should emulate Germany
Come to Korea and study
There is a lot of historical evidence
What if Willem of orange survived his Assassination
New theory: what is ishida mitsunari won the battle of sekigahara so there will be no edo period
point of departure: Yi-Sun-Sin gets hit by a rock when he's 6 year old and dies instantly
What if Yugoslavia joined the European Union
For Japan to hold Korea , you need 2 people to dissapper. First is Admiral YI. Japan needs to have a better navy and admirals to hold Korea. 2nd is Tokugawa. In our timeline, It is Tokugawa and his family that will bring Japan to the 19th century by closing all trade and contact with foreigners. He is the reason Japan did not try again after Admiral Yi died
Japan is not a competitor to China
One reason Hideyoshi wants to conquer Korea is because Japan has not enough land for making samurai's fiefdom
Like during that period of time, high ranking samurais are usually awarded a piece of their own land, something like a village or even a county, or a castle as reward for their compentence during battle
I'd assume Korea will be divided if Hideyoshi didn't die that quick... Northern Korea getting carved into new samurai fiefdoms and Japanese knowledge plus influence will start spreading, and maybe Southern Korea forming a united nation under the name of Toyotomi
Something like Japanese style of architechture and temples will pop up in Korea in the next decade, assuming Toyotomi is going to replace those Korean-Chinese style of "cities" and buildings with new Japanese castles built for samurais that are going to own the place; the north is given to samurais as they can help defend possible Ming and Manchurian invasion but also not hindering Toyotomi's influences, while Toyotomi stays at the south as it's closer to Toyotomi's own fiefdom.
Hideyoshi trough it could be a easy win, that's why he decided to use his own forces. It's not like anyone could've expected to find one of the most brilliant generals of all times as a oponent, lol.
If you think Japan's Warring States period was very charming, I suggest paying more attention to the wars between the Ming and Qing dynasties, including the firing of tens of thousands of firearms. The Ming dynasty had artillery weighing up to 400 pounds, as well as dragon cavalry equipped with firearm guns. The Qing artillery even quoted trigonometric knowledge
I think there was another possibility that you missed. During the Qing-Ming wars, Japan could back the Ming. Maybe their fleet cooperates with the Ming fleet, or maybe they sends a garrison to defend the (new) Ming capital, or maybe they even open a second front to back of the Qing.
Eventually as the Japanese get better firearms, traditional Qing lands could become their "Wild West".
They were going to do that, but Koxinga's father surrendered first before the Shimazu clan could send their army. Ming remnants were desperate, an Emperor even made his heir the prince a Catholic Christian in hope that the west may form a crusade against the barbaric Qing. There's still a letter requesting pope for aid in the Vatican today.
@@publiuska2204 Interesting, I did not know any of that. But wouldn't the Manchus get in conflict with the Japanese earlier in this timeline? And could that skew the war if, unlike Koreans in OTL, Japanese Korea never agreed to pay tribute and forced the Manchus to open a two-front war?
@@shamsishraq6831 Ming in its final days was pretty weak, and there were rebellions all over the place. The capital city was in fact sacked by a rebel army first instead of the Manchus. So my guess is that Ming would still fail. Manchu people at that time were very strong and robust, and they kept the momentum going for a pretty long while. They basically fought all that can be fought in mainland east Asia, just look at their map. Before Manchu, Ming and Mongols were always fighting each other to no avail. But when Manchu appeared, it destroyed both of them. So a Japanese Korea would in fact make this a three-front war, it's defintely a challenge for the Manchus. This might stop their momentum, or not… You never know…
Nah… you failed to mention Li Zicheng, the peasant revolt leader. He was the guy that killed the last “true” Ming emperor Chongzhen and let the Qing armies inside. While the Ming were fighting against the Qing he led an expedition force from Shanxi to Beijing, during which he never experienced any meaningful battle as all Ming defenders simply surrendered, the speed at which he marched scared the emperor so much that he didn’t have time to call other armies to defend the capital and he simply killed himself.
Li Zicheng basically conquered all northern China and got high with success, he allowed his troops to rampage through the city and some of them entered the residences of high officials to loot and rpe. When generals on the frontiers heard that their families were… humiliated, they chose to abandon their post and fight Li Zicheng, Wu Sangui, the guy that controlled the Shanghai Pass just allowed the Qing to pass through and joined them.
So all northern Ming was already lost because Li Zicheng conquered it, and he didn’t have the ability to govern it, since his army was made up of peasants and bandits he just gave posts to people highly unqualified or left the original staff… and their original problems… So no matter what Northern Ming would always be lost.
As for the “southern Ming” they beat themselves down… literally… Ma Shiying and Shi Kefa, Zuo Liangyu and the emperor… everyone wanted to gain as much power as possible doing stuff only to stop the other whether their ideas were good or bad. In fact when the Qing entered at first the Southern Ming wanted to ally with the Manchus to pacify the rebels as they were the guys who killed the previous emperor and ended northern ming… so even if Japan-korea wasn’t beaten earlier and threw themselves in to help the Ming, the Ming would probably just ignore them… forget about a Ming-Japan cooperation, even if the Japanese were willing, the Ming would pull them back.
@@publiuska2204
"an Emperor even made his heir the prince a Catholic Christian in hope that the west may form a crusade against the barbaric Qing. There's still a letter requesting pope for aid in the Vatican today."
Wait what?
I just disagree with peasants wouldn't mind a Japanese lord instead. Otherwise, Mongolians and Chinese would have been more successful when they managed to invade the Korean peninsula in the past. Defining that era as feudal is very strange for that part of the world. Even "feudal" Japan wasn't really feudal. Feudal-like maybe, but not really. Peasants would form militias/righteous army and fight back the Japanese in constant guerrilla warfare. So even if you give Hideoshi more 10 years, he would be plagued by constant revolts in the peninsula which would be a drain to his tenuous control of both Japan and Korea.
It would be more realistic to instead of fully conquering Korea and have a Japanese bureaucracy controlling the peninsula would've been to have a puppet Korean king instead and vassalize Korea. This would still leave Korea as a buffer against Jurchen and Ming while having indirect control of Korea and he could concentrate his attentions on reforming Japan to consolidate power. It would be as prestigious to have Korea as a vassal.
The successor could try annexing Korea later, but I feel like Japan wasn't quite there to fully annex and assimilate Korea like they would do with Ryukyu and Hokkaido later. I don't think they would be capable of that at the time. With their system at the time, they would have a hard time to keep Korea in the long term. It is more probable that Korea would eventually be free. The Qing didn't try to absorb Korea even thou they won against Joseon. They were fine with tributary relationship and recognition of legitimacy over the Ming.
I mean, I think you need way more caveats to justify total Japanese control of Korea than just have peasants accepting a new lord. Legitimacy is also a thing even for peasants. Maybe have them marry with local aristocracy and give some concessions. However, don't totally gloss over this detail.
Peasant revolt will not long lasting
Admiral Yi was singlehandedly the bulwark against Japan's invasion, just take him out of the equation, and Japan could easily have managed at least Korea.
China had Vietnam for over thousand years. They still are Vietnamese. I doubt the Koreans would forget after a few centuries.
Could you do a "What of King Phillip's war drove out english colonist from New England?" please? Some go back to England, some to the Southern colonies and the Caribbeans but New England doesn't exist. Maybe a Native confederation or several arise, supported by the French and Dutch. How would that impact North American History?
What if the Ming dynastie dident collapse or qonquerd manchria
At this scenario ming-qing war never happened bcs both sides united against japan
Personally I don't think Japan conquering China in this time period is completely unrealistic. Whether they'd be able to hold all their new territories with their internal divisions is another matter, but while the Ming army was certainly large, they had their own issues too. I mean as you mentioned, they fell to the Manchus not too long after this, so I don't see why Japan couldn't have done something similar, whether in one big war or in a few wars to solidify control over Korea first. Though if they had I would imagine the conquest would change Japan as much if not more than it would change China, as generally happens when a smaller polity conquers a much larger one. We see that a lot with China in particular, where a foreign army will seize control, and adapt to the many of the legal, philosophical, and religious traditions of China rather than completely uprooting them.
Ming wasn’t defeated by Machus directly, rather at the end of the Ming dynasty it was facing famine, peasant uprising (which was the actual army that took down Ming dynasty), and Manchus from northeast. The Manchus never managed to march beyond Shanhai pass before Ming collapsed.
明朝真正灭亡的原因是全世界进入了小冰期所造成的饥荒，当时世界各地出现了饥荒现象，当时明朝的吴三桂镇守的山海关就让清军束手无策无法前进一步
The main reason for the fall of the Ming Dynasty was the internal rebellion, not how strong the Manchus or how weak the Ming Dynasty, including the founder of the Qing Dynasty at the time, Nurhachi was also the general of the Ming rebellion. You know that the Ming Dynasty fought with the Mongols for hundreds of years
The Japanese Warring States samurai were not as strong as advertised by Japan and Europe and America. On the Korean battlefield, the Japanese army used three times its strength to ambush China's vanguard forces. The final result was that the Japanese army lost more than 3000 people, while China lost 800 people. This ambush was called the Battle of Bitoku
@@linshitaolst4936 Do you know if this battle has any other names? I was hoping to read more about it but I can't find any mention of a battle by that name. There was a somewhat similar defeat for Japan during the Siege of Pyongyang but it doesn't look like it quite fits your description.
A possibility I find interesting is that Japan allies the protestant powers, mainly the Dutch against Spain in the 30 Years war and "liberates" the spanish Phillipines.
Would love to see a Total War like Medieval 2. The same start date and end date. Maybe a bigger map size. With mechanics from total war Pharaoh but based in Asia. Instead of making a Shogun 3 and a sequel to three kingdoms . Include the mongols (as they invade both countries during medievals time period) and also add Korea as well as other factions outside of China like Vietnam and some of those island kingdoms. And like Pharaoh your goal is to pick a culture and make an empire. Essentially get to replay history or rewrite it entirely.
"Would be much more unrealistic" yeah, because charging multiple times against an enemy that is slaughtering you is very realistic.
Is it embarassing to say that I learned this war existed from a whatifalthist vid?
The Ming fell shortly afterwards though which you didn't take into account. The Ming might tolerate Japan as their empire was highly problematic, the Qing would not.
Wrong, you are referring to a short period of fifty years. The fall of the Ming Dynasty had little to do with the Korean War, the main reason was the discontent of the people due to the internal problems of the government and the fact that the Ming government accidentally killed the father of Nurhachi, the founder of the Qing Dynasty, leading to the rebellion of Nurhachi, who was a Ming official at the time.
This “shorty” =half a century .
The Ming dynasty spent a total of 7 million taels of silver in seven years fight Japan.
and spent more than 5 million taels per year from 1618 to 1644 to fight with the Jurchen.
The Jurchen, the rebels, and the economic and climate crisis were the main reasons for the fall of the Ming , the Japanese were insignificant.
Nice
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