Propellers
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- What is the best prop? The question is more complicated than it seems. In this episode Chad and Steele explain which props to use, and when to use them.
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Expert Pilots / Hosts
Chad Nowak [FinalGlideAUS]
Steele Davis [Mr Steele]
The Production Team
Chad Kapper - Executive Producer
Ryan Galbraith - Editor
David Windestal - Camera / Director / www.rcexplorer.se
Special thanks to Julee Kapper for letting us use the basement!
CONTACT US THROUGH OUR WEBSITE:
www.rotorriot.com
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #1 НАЧАЛО ПУТЕШЕСТВИЯ [Новый сезон] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/380Q7gLWGvk/mqdefault.jpg)
I just became aware of the relationship between the hypetrain race quads' propellers disc radius, disc radius of an electric saw blade, and fidget spinner toy disc radius - Thank you so very much.
Outstanding Video - You may not realize it but you helped to save my life.
You guys gotta make update videos like these!!! These type of vids are what get people into the hobby!!
I think we need an episode where you guys race quads against the top gear guys in cars... make it happen!
Yes!
The old original British trio not the new twats
+Grespino 1 For sure! on the new Amazon one...
The Grand Tour.
Yes, I'm late to the party, But a modern race quad will destroy ANY car up to a hundred miles an hour. I've driven an Ariel Atom V8 on track, and it is SAVAGE....But at the end of the day, power to weight wins.
Thank you for bringing back the original intro! It's way better. (:
Awesome video. I'm a noobie and you guys just made a lot people's prop choices suddenly make sense to me!
awwwwww... Steele in 2016... nostalgia hitting
Brilliant run through guys thanks. Trying to encompass the theory of propeller efficiency in 15mins takes some doing.
The helicopter designers have all been through this process. If you equate the type of flying you want to do with a helicopter you will find that machine has the appropriate rotor design already.
I.e.
Fast, nimble machine, look at a MD500e with 5 short blades.
Pro's = Small, high loading disc area, but really biting hard, using those 5 blades to max effect for rapid/agile response.
Cons = High fuel consumption/reduced endurance.
Slow, cruiser machine, look at Bell jetranger with 2 longer blades.
Pro's = Very efficient, larger disc area with lower loading. Low fuel consumption/increased endurance.
Cons = Reduced responsiveness, require more clearance from fuselage.
The key difference with multirotor blades is their requirement to accelerate and decelerate rapidly to generate the torque for Yaw as well as the asymmetric lift for Roll (all at the same bewildering time!!) The glaring next step would be variable pitch blades which would transform performance. That would be like going from riding a bike with one fixed 3rd gear to a 10 speed racer. fast at accelerating (fine pitch) to high speed blitzer (coarse pitch). BIG problem with that is added complexity and much MUCH more expensive replacement costs when you hit that tree or race pylon etc!!
Please do more of these talk through's and you guys should link to your store and sell these blades so we can support your Rotor Riot posts.
I still have a big bag of Gemfan 5x3 props if anybody wants them. They are great for mixing epoxy and stuff like that.
lmao...
I have a tonnnnn myself haha
Nice...
Chad tried to get me to blow up my thrust stand last night testing these props :) the HQ 5x4x3 pulled almosgt 1300grams!
+ThatHPI GUY :p
+FinalGlideAus lol
+ThatHPI GUY Magic smoke be dammed! In the name of science, full speed! Also, film it, cause everyone likes to see someone else blow up their toys on youtube.
I love it when you elaborate on the technicality and still keep it understandable. Best review of the series for me. Thanks a lot guys!
Thanks guys, I've recently changed my HQ 5045bn for 5040 3 blades and I won't go back now! Love these props, really enough speed for me and great response, and a real advantage I discovered is that even if you broke a blade with touching a branch you can still fly and go home and don't have to walk and search the quad....ok....the noise is terrible but the quad still fly.... ;-)
Great episode guys. Very down to earth and full of information.
Love the car transmission analogy for prop pitch. I understand the trade-offs now.
Ok, so I know this is a pretty old video, but there is something you guys got wrong in this video around the 10:00 point when you talked about hang time. You're right that if you're throttled up and pointed downwards, more thrust equals less hang time, but whenever you're throttled down then the speed you fall at is dependent on the prop shape. The air will start to spin the props instead of the motors, assuming you're throttled down. This is what helicopter pilots call autorotating. If you have a high disk space, then more air is hitting your prop as you fall, and more energy is dissipating into rotating the propeller, making your prop act kind of like a parachute. So a higher blade number or a lower pitch will give you more hang time, because it gives a higher disk space. Btw, I absolutely love you guys, I don't mean to insult you or anything, I just know this is something a lot of people forget about. I also know you guys have more experience flying quads than I probably ever will, so I'm perfectly happy to accept that I'm completely wrong if somebody explains it to me. Thank you guys for making these awesome videos and helping people learn and get interested in this hobby, you do a great job, keep it up!
I missed the last run of 5" penta props for my quad. I did however snag up about 20 sets of quadra props. Not only have I noticed a longer run time (battery wise) and without even going into hang time, just lift from an additional blade(s) is very interesting. The motors seem to fair well and may wear out quicker in the long run, but in a yearning and learning sense of aerotecture, I'm on the same page.
I like hearing things & thoughts of any age. Communicating my 2¢ or maybe $ of experience and knowledge to the communal forum and walking away a wiser individual or as a enlightened community is always a good feeling at the end of the day.
If you want more hang time, fly right side up at low throttle with a high blade count prop. Hang time doesn't necessarily have to be calculated as inverted orientation. The key term difference is lift as opposed to thrust.
Thanks for the prop class. Students totally got it and now want to test props thanks for the class motivation.
great vid guys. I went back to a 5x4 from a 5x4.5 and dumped the bull nose all together. flight time is way better now. and both quads handle great. Thanks
This channel is my heaven
Really good video, maybe the best one! Everyone that builds/flies drones should watch this!
Best video on props so far, to the point and very easy to understand. Been thinking about trying some tri's and bullnoose, so this really pointed me in the right direction!
seriously 1 of the most informational. vidz out.. it answered all my questions. thank guyz.
Very comprehensive review of props. Thanks guys.
Excellent analysis and comparison to car physics. The knowledgeable insights and personal experiences supporting quad dynamics is unrivaled in UA-cam. Great episode Team RR!
I do prefer 2nd and 3rd gear apexes they are much more manageable than 5th gear apexes in a race track.
Finally! Everything (almost anyways) in one place! This is the type of video that helps promote interest in our hobby from noobs to ace pilots alike. Well done RR.
You guys should go over your process for tuning PID's and rates. I know that would help a lot of newer pilots like myself, great job guys!
A vid on how you go about Tuning PIDS would help a lot of people out!!!
I love the car analogy with the gearing. Perfect explanation Chad!
Great info . Thanks Chad and Steele.
I flew a gimp-fan tri a while back.... you could hear the blades flexing when you pumped it into a 180° corner and jammed the throttle on to get moving forwards again. I took them off straight away.
DAL props all the way for me. 6x4.5 on my robocat with 2206 1900kv... heavier quad and 5x4.5x3 on my qav210 with rs2205 2300kv pocket rocket.
Cheers guys!
Thank you for covering props!
excellent explanation guys, this explained for in a few minutes than most of my online research. Now you should do a video about prop materials.
Thanks for the information guys. As someone new to fpv this helps tons.
A spinning prop with more blades will likely act more like a parachute, hence why when cornering it feels more locked in rather than drifting around. Up-side-down hang time could possibly be improved regardless of blade direction simply cause the 4 blade is spinning and is providing more resistance from the air thats bumping into it as it falls.. The difference may not be much, but possibly some people are noticing it especially when compared to a 2 blade flying.
Sweet vid, makes it simple.
Would like to see you guys discuss your FPV setups some time - What cams & VTxs you use, how many MW, which antennas you use & why.
Thank you very much, I learned a lot here! keep up the good work!
Thanks guys, I am just about to start tuning my quad for the first time and your video is a big help. May have to watch it several more times to under stand more about tuning. Cheers
Thanks for answering every question (and then some!) I've had about props in 15 minutes. I can now stop sifting through pages upon pages of forum posts and use this as my prop bible. Cheers.
props for that atom reference. the kit car is my dream.
great episode, we want more like these!
Nice work guys, love the analogies Chad and Steele use, as specially the feel
great tuturial guys helps a lot , its a mine field, hq 5x4x3 for me, tried 5x4x4 feels very locked just missing something that the triblades give.
Awesome video. Thx.
Other ideas: matching props to motors, ESCs, batteries.
Quad sizes vs props, motors, ESCs.
More pid tuning vids.
Frame crash strength consideration/what to look for.
Fpv setups.
Hangtime counter argument:
If you flip upside down and bring throttle down to low, the increased area of a triblade/quadblade adds more drag as the quad starts to fall and that means that it hangs a bit better with larger area prop
That is why some fixed wing ESCs have braking built in, a windmilling prop acts as an airbrake
Yes sure but a fixed wing prop is 90 deg to the airflow. When inverted doing hang time in a quad the prop is almost parallel to the airflow. The only difference with adding extra blades is at idle at the same rpm you may have a teeeeeny bit more thrust but that is working against your hang time argument. The difference there is stupidly small anyway.
Very informative and one of the best videos you've done.
THANKS GUYS !
Awesome video! It may have been worth while mentioning prop balancing though! It reduces vibrations, and increases efficiency - RPM for those of you curious!
Thanks for all the advice guys
It has been really helpful
Learnt a lot there - thanks. I'm hooked on the speed so I'll not bother with the four blade tris.
thanks for clearing that up
Thanks very much fellas, it answered a lot of my queries, CHEERS👍🏽
thanks learnt a lot. i was wondering why people choose to use 4' props and this answered my question
great descriptions for the different types and handling and uses. technical stuff and bench tests work, but real world applications are good to know too. Thanks!
Educational. Thanks for this episode!
Best props for beginners I've found so far are the King Kong props. They will flex in a crash but not break meaning that it isn't going to bend your motor shafts like the DALs will. Inverted into the ground only slightly bent the prop, just bent it back and went back in the air. Same story with hitting another quad head on and a soccer goal at 75% throttle; they just don't care.
Great and informative video, learnt a lot about props from this!
LOL, I had to learn tuning my quad on gemfan 5030s ABS. I kept getting frustrated i couldn't get it locked in. Then I got some real props and figured out why.
Great video guys I really appreciate the help and dedication to the hobby!!!!
Props to you guys. This video is fantastic!
Thanks mates! that will save me money and time !
A very insightful video guys!
I also see the force multiplier or electromotive force in the hypetrain race quad motors and the dewalt electric saw blade - Thank you.
chad and steele's cooking show for the win
+Rain L That reminds me of this: ua-cam.com/video/RL5L5V8C0Gk/v-deo.html
Very good video on props. I'm just getting started after flying a Hubsan X4 and a Phantom 4 for a few months, and I really didn't understand the differences between prop sizes, blade count and pitch. Subscribed! I just started flying a Storm SRD250 with 6" props and while I'm still learning how to control it at high speeds, I can really tell that it's a great quad. Hopefully soon, I'll be able to really get the most out of it. Great channel, guys!
Are you guys going to talk about hang time and how to practice it, and what you are doing to do it, a how to style vid?
Nice explanation guys!!! Very useful!!!
I think when people refer to hang time it's when you do a fast climb out and shut the throttle off. The more blades the more the quad will 'hang' and float down slower.
You guys are AWESOME! I love all your videos and this one taught me more than I learned in High School. Ha!
I love seeing that basement again! Just like the old times from FliteTest :)
Great vid guys. Well explained.
Thanks guys ! Very helpful !
Wow! Great info. Thanks guys!
I guess hobbyist and engineers speak a different language. Still good to hear the felt response of the props. One thing to consider though, is matching motors, props, and the lead afforded by the control loops. Lets co sider just thrust. A motor with a torque a back emf at a give rpm will match a prop at a drag torque, resulting in a steady state rpm at a given throttle setting. A 4x40 prop on a motor and battery at a given throttle might be 6000 rpm, when a 6x40 will be 3000 because the prop produces a higher drag torque at a lower rpm. Its also not just the diameter, but also the pitch, camber, and wet area of the rotor. In general you should match motors, props, and baterries.
Now onto how they feel. A snappy response is dictated by how fast a refernece signal ca be tracked by a system. Now on a quad there are several systems to consider.
Propulsion. Given a combo batt, motor, and prop there is going to be an associated delay between how fast a given throttle (pwm->esc>voltage) will be tracked and reach steady state. Ignoring transient aerodynamics, this value is almost entirely dictated by three parameters, prop moment of enertia, motor time constant, and prop drag torque. The more mass further away from the axis of rotation, the more torque is required to speed or slow down the prop. The more powerfull the motor and lighter the bell of the motor, the more torque is on hand. And finally, the more lift a prop produces and the faster it spins, the more drag is produced. One other source to mention is vibration caused by unbalanced torques. A two bladed prop is less stable then three bladed prop, and by stable i mean that if you look at the physics of the eurler cross products during a rotation of the quad crossed with the rotation of the prop, a term ca cels out in the three prop case, but not the 2 prop case. This causes a vibration in the motor shaft, which is picked up by the imu.
So ok, the reference signal gets lagged by the low pass nature of the motor rotor combo, but how is that reference made anway. Well worki g back, by the esc. The faster the esc can transfer data, the better more often the motor can try to track the refefence. The typical servo pwm runs at 50Hz, with a pusle of 1-2ms every 20ms. Shitty really for a quad. Instead we try to aim for a rate of 1000Hz, which can be accomplished with newer protocols like Onshot125, which can be sent around 2000Hz. This allows for a much snappeir resp9nse of the throttle and allows the controler to correct more often.
The controller now does two things. It tracks a reference command via feedback, such as angular rate or Brian-Tait angle (will people please stop calling them euler angles!), aka roll-pitch-yaw and it introduces lead in the form of a new refernece signal to the motors, which compensates for the slow nature of the motor, prop combo. For iinstance a motor prop I am using has a time constant of .07 seconds, but i want a rate command which has a timeconstant of .02 seconds, what do i do? Simply put i design an algorithm to sends a faster command to the motor briefly and then slow it down in a simular fashion. This can be done with a PD controller or PID if you want zero steady state. How this can be designed is by examing the frquency content of the motors and props as well as the moments of ernertia of the entire quad. I did this and designed a lag lead network which outpreformed a manual pd co troller. It is scary how fast it can flip.
The point is the felt perfomance is a combination of many things, and its simply not just due to the surface area of the prop, though that is something to consider. I can make large quad rolling on 8 inch props feel like a 250 if i can design an aggressive enough controller given that the sensor noise is low enough and the motors dont saturate.
Best episode so far guys. Keep up the good work!
great vid guys thanks for the break down.
Really good episode, cheers guys
Props bro!
Great video Guys very informative . Keep em coming
Thank you guys so much for this...as a noob..this has been on my mind for awhile...cheers:)
Just want to say thank you for doing these vids. They really helps with my knowledge base and educates me on the different aspects and science behind what each piece does. Also through the videos I have learned what I'm doing wrong like 5 DAL bull nose blades with a Glacier 45C 1300mAh 3S 11.1V LiPo Battery which is too small from what I understand from the video. so time for some different props.
I would love to see an episode on PID's starting with a stock Cleanflight setup on a Naze32 board and showing how the guys would tune it to get the locked in, crisp, nimble and fast machines that they fly.
Really useful! Thank you very much!
I think you guys are great! SUPER helpful! Thanks soo much!
I prefer crashing, for a beginner, it REALLY helps you learn more about the ins and outs
Good stuff! Thanks guys!
Well explained guys thanks
great vid.. I've had a lot of luck with the new gemfan 5050 triprops & my 1300mah lipos still have long flight times
Very helpful! Thanks Guys!!
HOW THINGS HAVE CHANGED!!!
would love to see you guy's do a video on radio expo.
Hang time; you'll gain more Translational lift with a propeller with more blades. If you are upside down then you can use translational lift to produce lift even though the conventional propeller effect is producing down force instead. At a very low throttle setting the amount of translational lift will not decrease by much but the amount of downforce will. So I can well believe you get more hang time with more blades.
Thanks Guys very informative !
very informative guys. can you do an episode on matching prop to motor to esc to battery please
great point
And come full circle with tuning?? Please :)
you guys are always informative an fun to watch. keep up the good work. ✌
thanks guys very helpful.
Thanks guys
great work on this episode guys! very informative! the information was presented well.
One crucial thing you guys didn't mention was prop brands...lol, you only talked about HQ props, (except for steele talking about the GemFans), why no mention of DAL "indestructible" props? or carbon fiber props? I myself use HQ 5x4x3 and 5x4x4 as well as DAL indestructible 5x4x3 (for their price/ durability compared to HQs) You should've mentioned this stuff. And why no links to any of these props in the description? Newbies will have no idea what props you guys are talking about, and where the best place to buy them is.
+Anthony Anastasio
Because the point of the video is to explain properties of props and how they affect performance. You can easily get that information from forums. When this video is still around in 5 years, will the brands remain the same? Unlikely.
+TT Q Yeah, but the people watching this channel are watching this channel because they want to hear that "forum" information from the professionals so they know it is accurate and that it is what the professionals use.
Good job guys. Nice.
Think of them (props) as "little wings" what you are doing is increasing the wing area and increasing the amount of "lift". Trade off is, more lift (or area) = more drag or load on the batts and hotter motors, if you go to 3 blade, watch your flight times and refigure them.
Please do a video on PID settings and tuning
Great job... the only thing you didn't cover was flight time... and what props have the maximum speed and what make maximum flight time.
+Dictator In Perpetuity You are 100% correct and they don't for everything they talked about in this video as well.. Because when they said a 6' prop spins slower you could use a 6S battery to compensate for that. But I was talking in context of the video with motor and battery staying the same... how a 6'' prop would likely give you longer flight times.
Loving your videos guys, thanks for educating us all in this great sport. I'm really curious about your battery habits, how many you have, do you have different batteries for racing and practicing, how many cycles do you normally get, do you break your batteries in.... would love to see a video on this. Keep up the good work!