If you want to compare just the construction: PCB vs hand wired, all the other factors should remain the same, specially the cabinet/speaker combination. Here you are hearing mainly the frequency response of the different speakers of each amp.
You're right, but these are the options that fender offer out of the box. With the 64' hardwired, you don't just get the hardwired amp, you get a pine cabinet and Jensen alnico 25w P10R instead of a ceramic C10R. You don't have the option available of buying a 65' with a pine cabinet and P10R.
@@hyperbrightstudios in that case, to isolate construction (PCB vs Hand Wired), a common external speaker/cabinet combination should be used for both, preferably a good quality one. Totally doable. In this comparison, it's impossible to say what's making one option "better": the type of circuit (PCB / Hand wired), the speaker, the cabinet, or any other factor not controlled.
@@ranaranjo What's the point? This is a combo amp, who buys a combo amp and then runs it as a head? I know it's a more scientific approach to working out hardwired vs PCB, but a product vs product test is much more useful.
I have an original princeton reverb 1966, a non-reverb 1966, a handwired 64 and a 1965 RI (friends). I have done the speaker swap thing between them and the handwired amps sound different. This debate is like the does wood make a difference in guitar sound. Off course it does. And if you tried the same test and think there is no difference you have a hearing problem.
That has far more to do with tolerances of the components. While I prefer handwired amps, it's more about durability and serviceability rather than tone. They all sound the same.
Isnt the circuit itself different in these amps though? The 64 would have the(A) or (AB) 764 circuit vs the 765 in the 65. I think they do this on purpose to make it so you cant compare them lol.
You just demonstrated the difference between a Jensen C10R and a Jensen P10-R, I doubt many can hear the difference in capacitors used. And then it's still about difference in components, not construction method.
And let’s be honest, the quality of the components in the modern Fender hardwired models is not great. Best option: If you can get a second hand Princeton from the 70s (60s even better, but harder to find and expensive), provided it’s in ok condition and hasn’t been poorly modded, it’s going to be leagues better than any of the modern offerings. Or you can get a high quality modern amp that uses PCBs (Suhr Bella for instance)
Love handwired amps, I held off buying any amp because I wasn’t totally satisfied, then I heard the ‘64 handwired Deluxe Reverb and bought it instantly
Night and day on my hifi system, handwired is clearly superior, clarity without the midbass mud and with sparkly grit and better transients and dynamic range. Then there is the fact that a handwired amp is serviceable. My vintage 1965 Twin Reverb is immortal, whereas my Marshall Studio Vintage mini plexi will live and die. The pots for example on the reissue, are all sharing a board, so if you break a knob you have to source a whole new board which may be out of production anyway, whereas the Twin can have any pot replaced easily if I drop it or something. That's not to say Fender's hand wired models are up to snuff compared to a vintage example; in fact the channel Psionic Audio is currently putting out videos of a hand wired 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb due to popular demand, and it is chock full of cut corners and boneheaded design flaws and cost saving measures that all require fixing right off the factory floor. I say go out and get a 70s model. They're less than brand new pcb reissues let alone handwired reissues, and they're awesome and immortal and can easily be blackfaced if desired.
the 64 hadnwired and 65 reissue are different circuits slightly as well. Alot of owners of 65 black panel models opt for the 764 circuit change in the even real 65's. Thats something to think about as well. I believe Fender did this on purpose so you couldnt easily compare the two.
I do agree on serviceability and to me thats enough of a reason to want a handwired amp. I would buy almost any smaller builders hand wired amp over any Fender or Marshall currently in production, even their hand wired. Hand wired also begs the question, who's hands?
Disregarding perceivable tonal differences, hand wired amps are fully reparable, whereas pcb amps are not. This fact alone makes handwired amps better. Stuff breaks, if you can’t repair it afterwards it becomes junk.
@@KennedyIvy If you are not a bedroom musician quality does matter a lot, especially if you take your gear on the road. Just watch Psionic Audio channel - a qualified amp technician. He goes in depth with actual amp examples what and how often breaks and needs to be serviced in guitar amplifiers. If I’m shelling out big money on an equipment, it better not become a door stopper in a couple of years.
Agree 100%. I had a recent Supro Delta 12. Crapped out. Not worth repairing. Out of warranty and I would have to order a complete new board per the tech.
Many have already mentioned it, but the difference you're hearing between these two amps isn't handwired vs PCB - its one particular speaker vs another speaker. The 64 sounds different because it has a different speaker than the 65 PCB.
Dynamic shift from subtle changes in picking. Try using a looper and switching between the amps with the exact same riff. I don't think there's a notable difference in sound. The point to point wiring looks cool and is easier to repair tho :/
I think they sound very close on the contrary, and the price difference is not justified at all. I could compare side by side, but the 65 PRRI was equipped with the same speaker as the 64. I could not differentiate between the two.
The big difference (other than 2 different speakers) is the solid wood construction of the handwired one, believe it or not. I say this bcuz I have a wine red FSR 1x12 PRRI with a P12Q, and had the ‘64 custom handwired, as well as a regular 65 and 68 RI. The FSR one has solid wood construction like the custom handwired, and I put the same jensen P12Q that came in the FSR into the handwired amp to test. The result was that the handwired custom sounded IDENTICAL to the FSR when using the same speaker, where as the others sounded different with the same speaker. So in my experience the only real difference sonically is the solid wood construction and the different speaker. If you’re wondering- I quickly sold the custom handwired and kept the FSR lol
@@lambdaman3228 yes, but that's impossible to do because different speakers make so much difference that the subtle differeces between PCB and PTP are simply overwelmed.
I've heard good things about those speakers and I'm hoping they're all true lol. Have you got one that you like? I'd been shopping for the right 65 PR for a while. I did a ton of research and almost bought a 64 Custom from fender. But after seeing a bunch of great reviews on the sound quality, I saw some mixed reviews on the build quality, particularly a video that psionic audio did on a 65 custom deluxe reverb he had in for repair. For what they're charging for those things I thought that the flaws he found in the workmanship from the factory, and some of the decisions they made when they designed it were unacceptable, so I opted to go for a boutique builder instead. After more shopping and research I knew exactly what I wanted and a couple days ago I finally found it and won a bid on a 65 PRRI that was rebuilt/handwired by George Alessandro in 2022. I wound up paying about a thousand less than I would have for a 64 custom btw, we'll see if that was money well saved when it gets here I guess. Anyways, it came from Alessandro with his Emerson 10" GA64 ceramic speaker but some reason the previous owner swapped it out for a Jenson P10r alnico. Fortunately, he still had the Alessandro speaker and has included it in the deal. I'm impatiently waiting for it all to get here in the next couple days and hoping it's as good as I expect it to be... While I'm waiting I've been looking for a video comparing the speakers. I found one comparing the 12s but have yet to find one on the 10" versions that my amp comes with. I'll play it with the Jensen for a few hrs or days and then swap it out for the Alessandro speaker and see which I like more.
Fender didn’t make any “Point to Point” amps post Tweed. A 1964 Princeton has a circuit board as well. It’s just a GOOD* circuit board made with eyelets and wire vs traces. You can repair them. The re-issues can only be fixed just so much before they become e-waste. Not my words but “Electrons don’t know the difference.” What you’re hearing is differences in Componets/Tolerences. Not in the wiring*
Good video, hand-wired win every time! I’ve done my own testing w/same speakers ……I believe hand-wired provide significantly better contact , dynamic s, better tone and more feel to the player…my .02
There is alot to this question. The simple answer is that point to point is easier to mod ,often easier to repair. That being said, I strongly believe that if you had the same components, same caps, same tubes , and same speakers the difference would be negligible. Also you need to compare differences with and without pedals . I have read some replys regarding caps . Someone stated you cant hear the difference. I totally disagree. Different caps sound DIFFERENT. I think they use different caps in the 64 Princeston P2P ..high grade vs midgrade caps in the 65 PRRI. The PT, OT, are the heart and soul of the amp. These are probably upgraded in th 64 PR. Are the tubes the same brand? This can make a difference. Bottom line, i believe when you upgrade caps , speaker , and some simple mods the PRRI and P2P would sound almost the same. I know this because i own both.
All little differences influences the sound. The placement of internal parts are not the same at PCB and HW amps. The cables are different from pcp traces ….. The HW method is more flexible, and the internal heat is more manageable. The HW method give you more positive results, but is more expensive.
Different speaker is definite point, however, I bought both to compare and hooked up both amps to the speaker in the 64, and then both amps into the speaker in the 65, and there is a huge difference in the sound of the amp! The 64 had much more character and better sounding breakup.
You struck the strings harder and more intensely when using the hand-wired amp. It may have been subconsciously, but that makes a big difference. Not really apples to apples. It is clear to see how much more “into it” you played when on the hand-wired amp.
All things being equal, a handwired amp and a PCB amp are going to sound more or less the same. Now where I think this changes is that most handwired amps are made with better components than your standard PCB version. Another Pro for handwired amps is that they are generally easier to repair, and stand the test of time better. The con for handwired is that they are always more expensive to build than a PCB amp. Given the choice, I would always go handwired before PCB, for no other reason than I know the handwired amp will likely last longer and be easier to repair when it does need servicing.
Like everyone is saying, the speaker make the biggest impact on the sound. And to be fair, A well made PCB-amp can sound "better" then these handwired series. It's all the cheap bad engineered amps that are giving pcb a bad reputation. (blues jr, hot rod deville, hot rod deluxe etc). And for service, It does not make a big difference if it's pcb or eyelet/turret board as long as you doing it right.
I'm joining so many others here to say ... use a common speaker. It should get a LOT closer. Second consideration is capacitors and other components ... I'll bet they aren't the same in each (especially if you test against a 'vintage' amp). I've read a number of reputable techs say that if all the parts, speakers, cab wood are the same, they should both sound identical, if all the solder joints are fully intact. Granted the hand wired is far easier to work on, but the sound should be the same.
Not this amp. It doesn’t resemble a ‘64 inside or outside. The least they could have done is remove the Fender logo from the upper left corner like all the smaller Fender amps from the Champ through the Deluxe Reverb of that day. Additionally there was not that much extra wiring inside the original which seems to be like af noise antennas.
Actual wiring shouldn't matter, but component quality and tolerances can vary enough that cumulatively they may make the sound "better" or "worse." The speaker has probably the most effect here. Hardwired amps are far easier to service and diagnose in most cases as well as easier to modify.
Is it worth double the price for people where 1500 matters? This is pro-amp terroritory. And what kinda weirdo gets a tube Amp and not interested in overdriving tube saturation? FREAKS I TELL YOU!!!
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Handwired has a Jensen alnico 25w P10R. PCB Princeton has Jensen ceramic 25w C10R.
Yeah I was going to say, if they have different speakers its a moot comparison in terms of handwired vs pcb, more like between different models
Also HW cab is solid pine instead of mdf
@ I think it’s plywood over MDF. At least in the deluxe reverb version the regular one is.
If you want to compare just the construction: PCB vs hand wired, all the other factors should remain the same, specially the cabinet/speaker combination. Here you are hearing mainly the frequency response of the different speakers of each amp.
Exactly. All else being the same, they’ll sound exactly the same.
Exactly, thank you!
You're right, but these are the options that fender offer out of the box. With the 64' hardwired, you don't just get the hardwired amp, you get a pine cabinet and Jensen alnico 25w P10R instead of a ceramic C10R. You don't have the option available of buying a 65' with a pine cabinet and P10R.
@@hyperbrightstudios in that case, to isolate construction (PCB vs Hand Wired), a common external speaker/cabinet combination should be used for both, preferably a good quality one. Totally doable. In this comparison, it's impossible to say what's making one option "better": the type of circuit (PCB / Hand wired), the speaker, the cabinet, or any other factor not controlled.
@@ranaranjo What's the point? This is a combo amp, who buys a combo amp and then runs it as a head? I know it's a more scientific approach to working out hardwired vs PCB, but a product vs product test is much more useful.
I have an original princeton reverb 1966, a non-reverb 1966, a handwired 64 and a 1965 RI (friends). I have done the speaker swap thing between them and the handwired amps sound different. This debate is like the does wood make a difference in guitar sound. Off course it does. And if you tried the same test and think there is no difference you have a hearing problem.
That has far more to do with tolerances of the components. While I prefer handwired amps, it's more about durability and serviceability rather than tone. They all sound the same.
Isnt the circuit itself different in these amps though? The 64 would have the(A) or (AB) 764 circuit vs the 765 in the 65. I think they do this on purpose to make it so you cant compare them lol.
I might have missed this, but do they have the same speakers in this shoot out? The stock 65 comes with a ceramic and the 64 with an Alnico.
Not a real comparison unless you run them through the same speaker
You just demonstrated the difference between a Jensen C10R and a Jensen P10-R, I doubt many can hear the difference in capacitors used. And then it's still about difference in components, not construction method.
And let’s be honest, the quality of the components in the modern Fender hardwired models is not great.
Best option: If you can get a second hand Princeton from the 70s (60s even better, but harder to find and expensive), provided it’s in ok condition and hasn’t been poorly modded, it’s going to be leagues better than any of the modern offerings.
Or you can get a high quality modern amp that uses PCBs (Suhr Bella for instance)
Love handwired amps, I held off buying any amp because I wasn’t totally satisfied, then I heard the ‘64 handwired Deluxe Reverb and bought it instantly
Night and day on my hifi system, handwired is clearly superior, clarity without the midbass mud and with sparkly grit and better transients and dynamic range. Then there is the fact that a handwired amp is serviceable. My vintage 1965 Twin Reverb is immortal, whereas my Marshall Studio Vintage mini plexi will live and die. The pots for example on the reissue, are all sharing a board, so if you break a knob you have to source a whole new board which may be out of production anyway, whereas the Twin can have any pot replaced easily if I drop it or something. That's not to say Fender's hand wired models are up to snuff compared to a vintage example; in fact the channel Psionic Audio is currently putting out videos of a hand wired 64 Custom Deluxe Reverb due to popular demand, and it is chock full of cut corners and boneheaded design flaws and cost saving measures that all require fixing right off the factory floor. I say go out and get a 70s model. They're less than brand new pcb reissues let alone handwired reissues, and they're awesome and immortal and can easily be blackfaced if desired.
the 64 hadnwired and 65 reissue are different circuits slightly as well. Alot of owners of 65 black panel models opt for the 764 circuit change in the even real 65's. Thats something to think about as well. I believe Fender did this on purpose so you couldnt easily compare the two.
I do agree on serviceability and to me thats enough of a reason to want a handwired amp. I would buy almost any smaller builders hand wired amp over any Fender or Marshall currently in production, even their hand wired. Hand wired also begs the question, who's hands?
Different speakers might be making the difference here. Jensen P10R in the hand-wired and a C10R in the 65.
Disregarding perceivable tonal differences, hand wired amps are fully reparable, whereas pcb amps are not. This fact alone makes handwired amps better. Stuff breaks, if you can’t repair it afterwards it becomes junk.
I was going to post this very thing and your post was the first one I saw, so thanks. 🤣
How often do amps break lol. Ive played guitar for decades now and never had an amp break.
@@KennedyIvy If you are not a bedroom musician quality does matter a lot, especially if you take your gear on the road. Just watch Psionic Audio channel - a qualified amp technician. He goes in depth with actual amp examples what and how often breaks and needs to be serviced in guitar amplifiers.
If I’m shelling out big money on an equipment, it better not become a door stopper in a couple of years.
Agree 100%. I had a recent Supro Delta 12. Crapped out. Not worth repairing. Out of warranty and I would have to order a complete new board per the tech.
You can't repair an amp that uses a pcb? I've repaired a few of them. What can't be repaired in a pcb amp?
Many have already mentioned it, but the difference you're hearing between these two amps isn't handwired vs PCB - its one particular speaker vs another speaker. The 64 sounds different because it has a different speaker than the 65 PCB.
Wouldn’t the heavier wire in the hand wire out perform the microscopic wire trace in a pcb
Haha, I was looking specifically for this shootout. Thanks!
Dynamic shift from subtle changes in picking. Try using a looper and switching between the amps with the exact same riff. I don't think there's a notable difference in sound. The point to point wiring looks cool and is easier to repair tho :/
I think they sound very close on the contrary, and the price difference is not justified at all. I could compare side by side, but the 65 PRRI was equipped with the same speaker as the 64. I could not differentiate between the two.
The big difference (other than 2 different speakers) is the solid wood construction of the handwired one, believe it or not.
I say this bcuz I have a wine red FSR 1x12 PRRI with a P12Q, and had the ‘64 custom handwired, as well as a regular 65 and 68 RI. The FSR one has solid wood construction like the custom handwired, and I put the same jensen P12Q that came in the FSR into the handwired amp to test. The result was that the handwired custom sounded IDENTICAL to the FSR when using the same speaker, where as the others sounded different with the same speaker. So in my experience the only real difference sonically is the solid wood construction and the different speaker.
If you’re wondering- I quickly sold the custom handwired and kept the FSR lol
What's the point with two different speakers????
The point is that most people don’t change speakers or mod, they buy an amp that they like the sound of.
But this video isn't about buying an amp. It's a video comparing PCB vs PTP wiring. @norwegiansniper9713
@@lambdaman3228 yes, but that's impossible to do because different speakers make so much difference that the subtle differeces between PCB and PTP are simply overwelmed.
@@guitareMTL Couldn't agree more! Video is useless clickbait.
Because that’s how they’re sold, hence it’s a test of what you would be getting.
Regardless, make sure you put in that Alessandro speaker.
I've heard good things about those speakers and I'm hoping they're all true lol. Have you got one that you like?
I'd been shopping for the right 65 PR for a while. I did a ton of research and almost bought a 64 Custom from fender. But after seeing a bunch of great reviews on the sound quality, I saw some mixed reviews on the build quality, particularly a video that psionic audio did on a 65 custom deluxe reverb he had in for repair. For what they're charging for those things I thought that the flaws he found in the workmanship from the factory, and some of the decisions they made when they designed it were unacceptable, so I opted to go for a boutique builder instead. After more shopping and research I knew exactly what I wanted and a couple days ago I finally found it and won a bid on a 65 PRRI that was rebuilt/handwired by George Alessandro in 2022. I wound up paying about a thousand less than I would have for a 64 custom btw, we'll see if that was money well saved when it gets here I guess. Anyways, it came from Alessandro with his Emerson 10" GA64 ceramic speaker but some reason the previous owner swapped it out for a Jenson P10r alnico. Fortunately, he still had the Alessandro speaker and has included it in the deal. I'm impatiently waiting for it all to get here in the next couple days and hoping it's as good as I expect it to be... While I'm waiting I've been looking for a video comparing the speakers. I found one comparing the 12s but have yet to find one on the 10" versions that my amp comes with. I'll play it with the Jensen for a few hrs or days and then swap it out for the Alessandro speaker and see which I like more.
Fender didn’t make any “Point to Point” amps post Tweed. A 1964 Princeton has a circuit board as well. It’s just a GOOD* circuit board made with eyelets and wire vs traces. You can repair them. The re-issues can only be fixed just so much before they become e-waste. Not my words but “Electrons don’t know the difference.” What you’re hearing is differences in Componets/Tolerences. Not in the wiring*
Good video, hand-wired win every time! I’ve done my own testing w/same speakers ……I believe hand-wired provide significantly better contact , dynamic s, better tone and more feel to the player…my .02
There is alot to this question. The simple answer is that point to point is easier to mod ,often easier to repair. That being said, I strongly believe that if you had the same components, same caps, same tubes , and same speakers the difference would be negligible. Also you need to compare differences with and without pedals . I have read some replys regarding caps . Someone stated you cant hear the difference. I totally disagree. Different caps sound DIFFERENT. I think they use different caps in the 64 Princeston P2P ..high grade vs midgrade caps in the 65 PRRI. The PT, OT, are the heart and soul of the amp. These are probably upgraded in th 64 PR. Are the tubes the same brand? This can make a difference. Bottom line, i believe when you upgrade caps , speaker , and some simple mods the PRRI and P2P would sound almost the same. I know this because i own both.
I like the 64 hand wired best. The 65 seemed kind of mushy in the middle.
All little differences influences the sound. The placement of internal parts are not the same at PCB and HW amps. The cables are different from pcp traces ….. The HW method is more flexible, and the internal heat is more manageable. The HW method give you more positive results, but is more expensive.
You demonstrated the tonal difference between speaker models, nothing to do with PCB.
Different speaker is definite point, however, I bought both to compare and hooked up both amps to the speaker in the 64, and then both amps into the speaker in the 65, and there is a huge difference in the sound of the amp! The 64 had much more character and better sounding breakup.
You struck the strings harder and more intensely when using the hand-wired amp. It may have been subconsciously, but that makes a big difference. Not really apples to apples. It is clear to see how much more “into it” you played when on the hand-wired amp.
All things being equal, a handwired amp and a PCB amp are going to sound more or less the same. Now where I think this changes is that most handwired amps are made with better components than your standard PCB version. Another Pro for handwired amps is that they are generally easier to repair, and stand the test of time better. The con for handwired is that they are always more expensive to build than a PCB amp. Given the choice, I would always go handwired before PCB, for no other reason than I know the handwired amp will likely last longer and be easier to repair when it does need servicing.
Like everyone is saying, the speaker make the biggest impact on the sound. And to be fair, A well made PCB-amp can sound "better" then these handwired series. It's all the cheap bad engineered amps that are giving pcb a bad reputation. (blues jr, hot rod deville, hot rod deluxe etc). And for service, It does not make a big difference if it's pcb or eyelet/turret board as long as you doing it right.
I'm joining so many others here to say ... use a common speaker. It should get a LOT closer. Second consideration is capacitors and other components ... I'll bet they aren't the same in each (especially if you test against a 'vintage' amp).
I've read a number of reputable techs say that if all the parts, speakers, cab wood are the same, they should both sound identical, if all the solder joints are fully intact. Granted the hand wired is far easier to work on, but the sound should be the same.
Not this amp. It doesn’t resemble a ‘64 inside or outside. The least they could have done is remove the Fender logo from the upper left corner like all the smaller Fender amps from the Champ through the Deluxe Reverb of that day. Additionally there was not that much extra wiring inside the original which seems to be like af noise antennas.
I like the sound of the 65 much better. But both had WAYYYY too much bass dialed in
Actual wiring shouldn't matter, but component quality and tolerances can vary enough that cumulatively they may make the sound "better" or "worse." The speaker has probably the most effect here. Hardwired amps are far easier to service and diagnose in most cases as well as easier to modify.
Depends on who hand wired the amp, and what components they were wiring.
A crap amp is crap no matter how it was assembled
Hand wired circuitry tends to be more durable,and easier to service. This is why there are so many 50-70yr old amps still in service.
PCB 65 sounds like a solid state compared to the 64 HW! 😱
On both of them the Overdrive is not very Musical. I don't like that "the amp is going to blow up sound"
The problem is neither one compares to the originals, you just don’t get that smooth tone creamy breakup musicality and responsiveness.
Hand wired is easier to work on, I’ve had both, PCb is fine.
If the 64 wasnt better that would be insane since its double the price lol
You put that weird half step chord in there. It totally threw me off. WHY WHY did you do THAT???
I hate you, Ron Burgundy!
speaker man, speaker 🙂
Is it worth double the price for people where 1500 matters? This is pro-amp terroritory. And what kinda weirdo gets a tube Amp and not interested in overdriving tube saturation? FREAKS I TELL YOU!!!