The Angsty History of Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson
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- Опубліковано 9 тра 2019
- It was a radical idea. Put Andrew Jackson in tight pants and have him rock out to emo music. However, despite its outlandish concept, Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson went on to receive rave reviews in the New York Times, Entertainment Weekly and The Rolling Stone. So why didn’t it transcend to the height of another modernized historical musical, Hamilton?
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John Fogg
Special thanks to www.thematic.com and www.fuge.com for providing the music.
Music Credits (in order of appearance):
• Music by Ryan Farish - Wilderness - thmatc.co/?l=C58C4D44
• Making Ends Meet - Thick As Thieves - thmatc.co/?l=45B19057
• Clueless Kit - Rooftop - thmatc.co/?l=F669AC61
• SkeetOnTheBeat - Late Night - thmatc.co/?l=E76B8FCF
• Clueless Kit - The Springs - thmatc.co/?l=E1694D70
• Ryan Farish - My Heart Beats For You - thmatc.co/?l=C68C4FF1
• Ryan Little - Whoa. - thmatc.co/?l=A38082B5
• Music by Weary Eyes from Fugue
• Music by Peaceful Riot from Fugue
• Music by Mr. Chase - Grace & Mercy - thmatc.co/?l=59EBFB43
• Music by Ilya Truhanov from Fugue
• Music by Weary Eyes from Fugue
• Music by Weary Eyes from Fugue
• Alfredo- Bayside thmatc.co/?l=9B8F6C78
• Music by Dream Machine from Fugue
• Music by Max Sergeev from Fugue
• Music by Stage Engine from Fugue
• Mr. Chase - Calling Home - thmatc.co/?l=11ECD51B
• Clueless Kit - close your fridge it's cold - thmatc.co/?l=86993CB
• Ryan Little - sometimes i feel this way. - thmatc.co/?l=C07F644E
• Music by Peaceful Riot from Fugue
• Music by Alpharo - Too Early - thmatc.co/?l=FED9A3C5
“What other historical figure could relate better to Emo culture than Jackson?”
Me, out loud: Mary Shelley.
God, I would love a Mary Shelley musical!
wasnt she more of a goth though.
i mean as an ex-emo goth kid meself, not to say that the two have to be mutually exclusive, just that i feel she leaned more on the goth than the emo lol.
@@mophead_xu for sure. But in a toss up between Andrew Jackson and Mary Shelley being emo Mary Shelley wins by a calcified heart.
Edgar Allen Poe?
I’d have said Abraham Lincoln lol
Just a quick note, the Trail of Tears was not just Cherokee. I'm of Choctaw descent and we were forced on that death march too, along with other tribes.
Exactly. It was all 5 of the South-eastern Native American nations, the so-called "The Five Civilized Tribes" of the Southeast. American settlers had been pressuring the federal government to remove Indians from the Southeast; many settlers were encroaching on Indian lands, while others wanted more land made available to the settlers.
Andrew Jackson's support for the removal of the Native nations began at least a decade before his presidency and was Jackson's top legislative priority...depite the fact that the process of cultural transformation from their traditional way of life towards a white American way of life as proposed by George Washington and Henry Knox was gaining momentum, especially among the Cherokee and Choctaw. Jackson got Congress to pass the Indian Removal Act of 1830, which authorized the government to extinguish any Indian title to land claims in the Southeast. Many fought it in court, most notably the Cherokee, who got it all the way to the Supreme Court who ruled in their favor. Jackson is famously quoted as saying, "The Supreme Court has made their decision. Now let them enforce it." He then proceeded with the removal of these people, even though *the removal act did not give him the power to forcibly remove anyone from their lands.*
Referring to the Indian Removal Act, Martin Van Buren, Jackson's vice president and successor, is quoted as saying "There was no measure, in the whole course of [Jackson's] administration, of which he was more exclusively the author than this. There were approximately 60,000 Native Americans moved in total between the five nations, and of the 16,000 Cherokee, around 4,000 of them died since they were marched on foot in the dead of the winter. That's one quarter of the population. Only around 300 to 400 Cherokees escaped being rounded up by hiding in the mountains and migrating to North Carolina.
The removal of the Five Nations of the Southeast was nothing less than an ethnic cleansing. That's not hyperbole. That's the definition. "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous." Jackson saw all Native Americans as one race and lesser than white people. And let's not forget that many Plains nations had already been relocated to Oklahoma and had made it into their own home. When the peoples of the Five Southeast nations arrived, many of the Plains people saw them as intruders, trouble broke out and escalated into violence once the last of the Cherokee were pushed in.
Btw, as someone with Native ancestry and who has always been proud of my Creek and Cherokee roots...this guy at 13:10 is just another example of people conflating all Native Americans as being the same. War bonnets (also called warbonnets or headdresses) are feathered headgear traditionally worn by male leaders of the American Plains Nations who have earned a place of great respect in their tribe. The Southeastern Nations did not wear feathered headdresses, but rather cloth ones...basically turbans. But of course, slap some fringe and a warbonnet on a guy and it says "Indian," right?
no joke- this musical saved my ass on my apush final exam a few years ago. if i hadn't have memorized the corrupt bargian song like i did, there would have been no way i would have passed that final exam prompt
May i ask what the prompt was? (And I’m glad you passed your finals )
funny somthign simmilar happened to me in HS with the WB cartoon Hysteria (was a cartoon about world history done by the same crew as animaniacs ended up takign a test the same day that show covered the subject of the test and i'd often watch it before i went to school cause it was a funny show and i learned stuff)
Same thing happened with me, but with the Federalist Papers (Hamilton)
Nice pfp my friend
@@yikesyourchunkyhostilityha2321SAME
I would love a What Went Wrong with Tuck Everlasting, as it played for a month, but is critically great and my all time favorite. Although you could probably sum it up as "Hamilton came out, everything else was irrelevant."
Nash Hansen I remember reading the book of that in elementary school and it being terrible. Did the adaptation make any major changes?
Jacob Belyea The story is fundamentally pretty similar with some small changes. What exactly did you dislike about the book?
Jacob Belyea the musical adds a lot of emphasis on the themes and wanderlust present in the book. Chances are that in Elementary school, you just didn’t have enough investment in it due to your age. The musical makes investment easy, although it is very cheesy and has the “typical musical theater music sound”
I’ve been meaning to listen to the tuck everlasting musical since I’ve heard it’s really good and I really loved the book when I read it.
YES THANK YOU everyone forgets about tuck everlasting AND big fish. People don’t give smaller musicals enough credit
Would you ever consider doing a video on Love Never Dies? Andrew Lloyd Webber’s bizarre sequel to Phantom of the Opera?
My best friend talked about this show in passing conversation a couple months ago. I've already started working on the script for July's video, but I think this show justifies a look.
Wait in the Wings - Oh my GOD that show is fucking terrible.
Oh, *that* flaming trashpile.
Wait in the Wings it’s my favorite. Don’t fight me
Omg it’s so bad. I’ve rewritten it in my head to be less horrendous but it still shouldn’t exist....
idk i dont think i'd ever want this musical being popular today if only for the fact that i know there will be thirsty "andrew jackson stans" who either miss the satire or dont care and i dont think i could handle that
Agreed! As someone from Oklahoma, we’ve learned Andrew Jackson and what he did to the Native Americans... yeah, no. A show trying to paint him as poor emo AJ, no thank you
I thought the miku binder jefferson thing was ridiculous but the one thing worse than that would be andrew jackson getting the same treatment
Yeah... Jackson was a total dick. If you tell me you like Jackson, I know all I need to know about you.
I could even see some particularly weirdo alt right people trying to make it the “anti Hamilton”…
Exactly this! I don't need to read a bunch of Terminally Online weirdos screaming at indigenous people-- or really anyone with a brain pointing out how much of a shit person Jackson was, for not being nice about Jackson because these mouth-breathers decided to make him their "uwu sad boy blorbo".
It's timing. When "Chicago" debuted in the 1970s, Broadway wasn't ready for its vicious cynicism. A couple of decades later, the remount was a huge hit.
Chicago came out too soon, but this came out too late. There will never be a time for it again.
There's also the fact that it was going up against American Idiot. The musicals aren't really that similar but they both had similar vibes and music. If people who were coming into the city for a single show were to chose between the two, they'd go with who they recognize
@@billvolk4236 I disagree...every decade usually comes back into style when the generation that grew up in that period is in their late 30s-40s (just when they're about to start their midlife crises and yearning to hold onto their youth). Emo culture may be in vogue in the 2030s.
Emo doesn't need to be in style for Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson to be a hit, it's making fun of the genre anyway. If people forget about it, then it can bring it back.
I think that should be the case for Bloody Bloody, there should be a revival of the show, this time with conviction, just like Chicago.
Clicked this because I thought it said “Andrew Lloyd Webber goes emo”.
Instead I found my new favorite musical. Thank you
And you just gave me inspiration for a new show idea hahaha
You predicted Cinderella
lol
@cas charles
I assumed it was about the Patti LuPone lawsuit, so yeeeeah great stuff Andrew.
Batboy: The Musical would be the perfect show to cover!
I remember when I stumbled upon the show once during Drama class in school and my teacher called it a musical classic and her favorite play. I don't think I've ever been so worried for a person mental health before.
It’s one of my favorites, it’s absolutely wild, and it would be GREAT to cover!
I don't think you give enough weight to the reprehensible actions of Jackson and how the mere mention of him OR the Trail of Tears causes an immediate reactive response. In the The Producers, the fact that they chose Hitler as the subject for the musical they want to flop isn't an accident. Without knowing anything else, the name Hitler in and of itself is a huge hindrance.
Just as problematic is that no matter how they begin, movies and plays with a central historical character tend to wind up glorifying him/her in some way. Look at examples of Barnum and Evita (and yes Hamilton too) and you'll see how this can manifest. Why? Because ultimately the story is told from their perspective and they are, certainly from perspective: a messiah, a legend or a hero. Both subconsciously and consciously audiences tend to fear or desire this raise in stature. Raise the profile of the Indian Killer and what does it mean, they wonder. The whole point may be that he was more than that, that he was more complicated - but that he is so associated with such horrific actions automatically slams shut the interest of many in watching that exploration.
One last thing; it doesn't escape my notice that in the clips I have watched white men play Native American roles. This is not exactly an endorsement.
Ummm...have you seen Evita? That musical is absolutely SCATHING. I mean Argentina still won't put the show on because it's so negative towards her. Just because a show has a controversial person as the central character, doesn't automatically mean they're praising that person
@@MadameChristie True. Praising isn’t quite what I meant. The play openly asks us to admire things about her even as it criticizes her. And yes, Che is constantly calling her out and harshly so. But then again, he calls EVERYONE out. Argentina is and of itself, doesn’t come out looking so great.
Some of her last lyrics go like this, "The choice was mine, and mine completely
, I could have any prize that I desired, I could burn with the splendor of the brightest fire Or else, or else I could choose time" This is a triumphant, 'I did it my way' statement. She chose her journey and this is her story. Curtain. There is some glorification in that.
Also I don’t think it can be denied that most people (outside Argentina) wouldn't even know who she was without the musical.
YES - the Native American Costumes had me like... ummm sir... SIR
And in a post-Sopranos America, audiences have a seemingly insatiable desire for antiheroes. Male ones. White male ones. Some day maybe we’ll allow women and minorities into the antihero club, but for now we still have to be “likable” (ie, not too threatening to white men).
Also, I knew a bunch of the creative team for BBAJ and they’re all suuuuper progressive, but we’ve come a long way, politically, from the 2010’s when this was produced. It would not be an OK show to do anymore, and I’m fairly sure the team would agree - they’d wanna do tons of revisions at the very least.
my argument for the music comparison is while Hamilton hit great timing with its score in terms of cultural acceptance of hip hop it also has an authentic reverence and feel. Whereas bloody bloody felt too disingenuous with its genre. almost as if the composer didnt quite resonate with the very music it tries to adapt. Lin lived in his hip hop roots and you can hear it. i grew up with the music bloody bloody was going for and coming from someone who wanted it to succeed it just didnt feel completely there. the music missed the mark. and it isnt because its musical theatre, again you can succeed in joining the genres, but it edginess was like hot topic as opposed to anything more underground. of course it doesnt have to be the most edgy punk sound, its still musical theatere, but even then it just doesnt feel authentic and at the end of the day authenticity would just be better. theres an interview with the composer and he cites bands like fall out boy or green day, but it doesnt sound like any of the music he wanted. its supposed to be emo punk, but it doesnt sound like it. at times there are moments of brilliance, but it just doesnt hit the mark.
this isnt about whether or not its good, its just about the sound and why i think it didnt quite hit the way it could have.
Yeah, you're spot-on. People who never listened to emo music probably wouldn't like this score to begin with, and people who did grow up with emo music would probably have spotted it as fake (seriously, Green Day?) or disliked the association of a genre they liked, which usually catered to kids who saw themselves as social underdogs, with an asshole president like Jackson.
So much truth here. Hamilton works because Lin Manuel is a hip hop kid and a Broadway kid, so joining them works. BBAJ doesn’t work because none of the production team were emo or understood the genre/subculture. They just saw what teens wore to hot topic
YES I was waiting for someone to talk about Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, my mother and I heard one of the songs on a Broadway radio, and when I saw Hamilton starting to trend, my first thought was, “oh, like Bloody Bloody!”, I’m glad to hear people talk about it!
I'm shocked that they played a song from Bloody Bloody on the radio lol Anytime I listen to it it's just always Chorus line hahaha.
Wait in the Wings I specifically remember it because it was “I’m Not That Guy”, and both my mom and I were like “they’re making a musical about Andrew Jackson?!” Never saw it (I was probably too young at the time), but the song was pretty good, a nice break from all the “classic” Broadway songs on that channel haha.
Same!
Theater straight up is too expensive for the public
I got to see tickets to see Bloody from the TKTS booth so ... theater doesn’t have to be expensive.
Over the last two years, pretty much all affordable tickets have moved to digital lotteries. They are almost impossible to win.
Support local community productions. They are much cheaper, and if you support them they will continue to exist.
@@ganondorfchampin of course! but I live in NYC, so we don't have community productions
I am so sorry.
Really good analysis! I would add that Hamilton benefitted from its main character being relatively unknown compared to Andrew Jackson. Hamilton himself had his faults but the musical really dug into how, at the time of release, he wasn't very well known or talked about: they subsequently examined themes of legacy and being forgotten. Andrew Jackson draws very negative connotations, depending on who you talk to, because of the Trail of Tears which sticks out in our memory as being horrific.
The second thing I'll say: Hamilton exploded due to the internet buzz started by young fans who can't afford to see the show (myself included). You can listen to the entire Hamilton soundtrack online and know the plot/characters/music better than someone who actually saw the show. That hype from younger fans brought more of the upperclass, older generation to actually see the show and create the buzz it did. Also the compatibility of the Hamilton themes with the Obama administration (Lin performed a few times at the White House) really pushed Hamilton to the forefront.
I was looking for this comment! And its true, I remember learning about Jackson in school even the most basic quick history lesson, and Hamilton I don't remember ever going over him at all
Granted I'm from Oklahoma so I think Andrew Jackson would be more likely to be in the state curriculum
But even still, Jackson never really left the nation's consciousness, not how Hamilton had dipped in and out of it
This idea that Hamilton was relatively unknown to most Americans is always so interesting to me. Growing up in NYC, he was heavily featured in my early education studies of American history. And then there was that "Got Milk?" commercial which played constantly in the early '90s where the guy was asked who shot Alexander Hamilton but he couldn't answer because his mouth was full of peanut butter. Point being, I knew far less about Andrew Jackson than Hamilton before I saw their respective musicals but I guess this is not the norm.
Hamilton and Jackson are both best known for being guys on money, but Jackson was a president while Hamilton wasn't, so he has that advantage.
This is so well researched and put together! I hope you continue to make more of these videos, they’re wonderful!
Thank you so much! Next video is up on Monday :)
Hamilton referenced Bloody Bloody in one of those street performances, it was about Alex’s others kids. “The name’s James Alexander, I’m a lawyer too!
I had five kids like Tevye, with a boy or two!
No time for relaxin
Cuz I’m secretary of state for Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson!”
I think Bloody Bloody could really have a resurrection in a modern era off broadway with some tweaks like you mentioned (casting poc, doubling down on genre, gruesome honesty and edge for jackson’s monstrous actions). With an adaptation off off broadway or as a movie would engage the hell out of me. The soundtrack slaps.
this was really interesting and well-researched! I love the music from this show, but it definitely felt like it was caught in slightly the wrong time and like it had some problematic elements. I'm pleased for them that they made it to Broadway, though I agree with you that Broadway itself doesn't have to represent the ultimate end point.
I'm happy you enjoyed the video! Hopefully once the channel gets some more traction I can do a couple videos on great shows that never made it to Broadway.
i feel like they understood emo culture in the same way that big bang theory understood sci-fi/fantasy nerds
bloody bloody could probably do well in our time now
reggie nah I can imagine people getting real upset about how they present him
agree, like he said I think the Jacksonian era can have some very interesting comparisons to modern politics
It really depends...it could be deemed a cynical hit or people could have real problems with how they perceive that Andrew Jackson is portrayed in the musical. The current political climate is very extreme... whether it’s SJW’s or extreme conservatives, someone’s bound to complain about Bloody Bloody.
@@cola7260 what kind of bozo still says sjw anymore?
Could you do a Wait in the Wings for Natasha, Pierre, and The Great Comet of 1812?
I think an active discussion about casting choices, broad commercial appeal of obscure classic literature, and internet flame wars over controversies can be discussed about the financial failures of this GREAT show.
Great Comet did not deserve what happened to it.
I would like to point out that Jesus Christ superstar is the pioneer of the modern sounding musical about a historical figure (sure religious in that case but presented very atheistic-aly) and that was one of the main inspirations for Hamilton down to its narrative structure
But this video is actually incredibly insightfull, I have actually never really seen it at all, but also I feel like tourist audiences simply don’t care for American history and as you say would rather see one of the huge and safe productions, unless the show has enough buzz, bloody bloody was that to but I think that Hamilton really was an anomaly, and in a way Hamilton is way more marketable and audience friendly, and your argument about the decline of rock is extremely true, and shows like SIX the musical for example are doing great because Britney/Beyoncé like pop music is dead at this point and enough time has passed for it to be nostalgic (pop nowadays is depressing Lorde edm), Hamilton rose during the cusp of hip hop and rap era, Bloody bloody’s music style worked to the style of Xanadu which used disco music when disco music was starting to die
I find this review troubling. There was barely a passing mention of the Native American's protest of the show, something that's been best said by much smarter people but to give you some examples, not only does this take a sort-of South Park vibe to the show where nothing matters and everything is fair game, except we're talking about the genocide of Native American's during the whole play they are caricatures, things to be made fun of like after they kill AJ's parents, something that never happened in real life, and then come out and dance ballet as if to taunt him, when AJ had the native chief he just proceeds to ridicule them, their music and paintings AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO MAKE THE AUDIENCE LAUGH, it's supposed freaking joke, but there's nothing to laugh at except the Native Americans, the song were the Native Americans are killed one (in ways that are still pretty relevant to this day) by one is constantly interrupted by skits (oh look how funny it is when Jackson give smallpox blankets to the natives, imagine if such an skit was done about the Jews in WW2? It's the same result, except we're supposed to laugh about it), this goes on and one with Jackson constantly berating and insulting the Indians which not only becomes exhausting, it never amount to anything other than a final sad song. The only Native American characters of any importance are Jackson's adopted kid (who only serves the purpose of playing to tired stereotypes for cheep laughs) and Black Fox who's supposed to be the final nail for Jackson but because they play barely bothers to establish a relationship between them his betrayal screams hollow, then there's the aptly names "Saddest Song" which one would thing would have to do with the Trail of Tears since it comes out right after he's forcibly expelled the natives from their lands, but no, is about Jackson and how hard it is to be president. The trail of tears doesn't even get a proper sequence. Oh, and it ends in an inspiring speech, which while I'm sure it's supposed to be satire it's made in such a way that anyone who thinks Andrew Jackson was a hero would feel vindicated by the ending. This show is bad, it tries to be sympathetic with Native Americans while constantly belittling them, it's not progressive, it's condescending and not very smart satire.
Hey! Yep, I didn't have that much time when putting this video together, since the main thing was to highlight the history of the show and then hit the basic bullet points as to why it failed. I do dive into this exact point with my appearance on the "Musicals with Cheese" podcast! Great points and I mostly agree. I don't think the sequences with the native americans are intended to make the audience laugh because their funny. They're supposed to make the audience laugh because they're so uncomfortable and it's a laugh that comes as a defense mechanism from how wrong everything happening is.
"became instant adversaries"
Uhhhh, you're using the wrong word there. Did you mean "allies" ?
That confused me, too.
@@hothotheat3000 Consequences have actions.
ICONIC
Yeah I was trying to figure out if that was a mistake or if he skipped over some part of the story?
I love his flubs, though. My favorite is when he mixes up the words "malign" and "benign."
My theatre troupe is doing this musical right now, fixing allot of the problems of the original cast (poc on cast, including myself, an actual native, as black fox).
Oh neat! Are you tweaking anything else major, out of interest?
This kind of music being compared to Andrew Jackson is the weirdest thing I've ever heard, lmao. I'm trying to fit emotional rock music and eyeliner in the the Trail of Tears and it's not... quite... working....
The more I look into this musical the more I feel like it was created by someone who'd heard one emo song and thought it would be an ~edgy vehicle with which to reach the ~youth, lmao.
“Adversaries” means enemies and “maligned” means criticizing/talking shit
I was confused for a second here, too. Lol
"Andrew Jackson was the first emo president" immediately killed me, thank you.
I just found this video months after discovering Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson (and falling in love with it) and man, this is very in-depth and informative! I feel like if this show had a revival sometime in the near future, it would be very popular amongst people. I do agree with your point on the bad timing of this show's release. I wish it had more fans and I'm glad you put it under the spotlight!
I agree. They've gotta do a revival quick! The timing is perfect. I'm so happy you found the video and I hope you watch some more of the videos!
I’ve worked with the cast over 10 years ago at the Kirk Douglas Theater. Alex and Michael were absolutely brilliant and I’m honestly so honored you’ve taken the time to do your research. This has brought back so many great memories.
I'd really love one of these for The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical
I feel like this fits into the same hipster audience as Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812 and that isn’t a bad thing
Ain’t nothing “hip” about genocide.
24:03 I'm gonna disagree with you there...this shows wasn't a victim of bad timing, it was a victim of poor choice for a protagonist. Like you said earlier, Hamilton's legacy is different than Jackson's. Both men were outsiders who became war heroes who became leading political figures. But whatever else Jackson might have tried to do in his term as president, he ended his time in the White House with a legacy of ethnic cleansing. That's not hyperbole. Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Jackson forced the removal of all five of the Southeastern Native American nations, so 60, 000 people. The Cherokee were the last to be removed, forced from their homes in the dead of winter to walk all the way to Oklahoma. Of the 16,000, 4,000 of them died during the journey. That's one quarter of the entire population. And why? Because gold had been discovered in Dahlonega, Georgia. The Cherokee took their case all the way to the Supreme Court, who ruled in their favor, and Jackson ignored this finding of the judicial system and did it anyway.
This is literally one of the last things Jackson did in office in 1937, his last year as president. He has always, always, always had this stain on his legacy, and modern audiences are even more aware of it, and the younger generation even more sensitive to the wrongheadedness of his decisions. So the idea of going to see an Emo show of Jackson pouring his heart out in Emo songs and being all "woe is me, nobody _understands_ me" just isn't gonna fly, man. Nobody gives a flying f--- about that, nobody's gonna feel sorry for him. If this musical show had been an emo/punk rock opera about some FICTIONAL character, I could possibly agree that it was the change in musical tastes that was it's ultimate downfall. But to my mind, the show was sunk as soon as they chose Jackson. The heroic narrative around him shifted about 30 years beforehand to one that was more balanced when I was a kid in the 80s, when they taught he was this great war hero whose life was saved by Cherokee Chief Junaluska during the French and Indian War to just 10 years later saying how he repaid Junaluska's friendship by sending him and the entire Cherokee Nation on a death march...one that they KNEW was a death march, because the Seminole, Creek, Choctaw, and Chickasaw had already been marched out.
Jackson was not a good choice.
Protagonist doesn't mean "hero". For someone who did a lot, lotta bad, perfect example of a protagonist to have in a story. He's just not a hero.
Nobody feeling sorry for him is the point of the show. We’re supposed to laugh and get angry at how much he waxes poetic about his own suffering and jacks himself off for his “greatness” because we know that what he’s doing isn’t noble populism, it’s self-obsessed victimhood that makes him feel justified in doing whatever he wants no matter the consequences. We’re also meant to judge the people in the show who support him, as evidenced by the couple who move to Florida despite insisting that they “don’t condone” his treatment of the Native Americans. Maybe the satire was too subtle for audiences, but I disagree with the assertion that the musical tries to get you to sympathize with him.
I LOVE the two videos you’ve done on this topic! Can not WAIT to see what else you do! Keep it up!!
Oh thank goodness, I haven't let you down yet haha Thank you so much. Next vid goes up on June 5th!
Loving your theatre essays dude!! This is the sort of content I’ve been looking out for as a musical geek. ^^
I'm happy you like them Marlin! Musical geeks unite!
Having seen a bootleg after having a little bit of a phase of this show, I'll answer this question in 2 words.
Awful Choreography.
There's more but oh my god I just can't get over how bad the choreo was.
It was intentionally bad choreo; that was part of the joke, and the send up of populism.
You touch on this a bit in the video, but i really wanna go on a tangent talking about the Hamilton comparisons.
this show is from start to finish, the antithesis to Hamilton; not quality wise mainly, just subject wise. Hamilton is a personal story but Bloody Bloody is an impersonal satire. Where you're meant to feel close and connected in scenes with alexander Hamilton and his comrades doing monologues. In Bloody Bloody you have a lady dressed somewhat similar to a high school teacher who just presents you Andrew Jackson's backstory, which I think is purposefully similar to how we're introduced to history subjects in school. She enthusiastically talks about his life while skimming over the horrid things he keeps continually doing/saying. Instantly you are much less connected to him personally and you're just watching a continuous train wreck.
Regarding the music, This may be way more subjective but I genuinely feel like the kind of "not emo/hard rock enough" soundtrack actually really worked well within the context of Andrew being an utterly shallow and shameless misconstruction of being a rockstar/rebel. Andrew obviously does not deserve to be represented properly in that light because he isn’t truly a rebel, he’s a hypocritical oppressor who just thinks he is. Bloody Bloody is a wake up call to those who lionize historical figures as being what they’re plainly not, while also I think being a satire on how we learn about them.
The main thing I agree with change-wise is regarding the Indians which should’ve been played by native actors. Purely story-wise though I’m amazed at how little punching down there is at the oppressed groups, unlike certain other satires that were popular at the time (*cough* South Park *cough*). The Indians are shown to be unfairly targeted, have little to no say in current events, and are constantly interrupted by the immature politicians. (Similar again to how most of their plight in our history books was shown to us through to how WE were affected.) They’re obviously in the right and suffering more than the others in this musical, but the main characters make it about themselves.
there’s a lot more comparisons I could make but at this point it feels like I’m writing my own video essay, so to cap off my point, I think people who enjoy Hamilton should really watch Bloody Bloody. It’s genuinely very funny, well written, and the music’s great, but don’t go into this as something similar to Hamilton to watch, Watch it as something to juxtapose Hamilton. While Hamilton works as being a great story with the history in it revisioned to be inspiring to us and work modernly. Bloody Bloody is a direct commentary on revisionism itself, how people as horrible as Andrew Jackson can still be cast as amazing in a specific light due to others poorly placed, or in some cases, maliciously placed intentions. As of the month I’m posting this we have a president jailing and harming people protesting statues of confederate soldiers. While Hamilton has it’s place for what it wants to be, I personally think Bloody Bloody is way more apt more historical musical for this current decade.
(Apologies for the poor sentence structure, I haven’t written anything this long since I was in school lmao. I just really wanted to get these feelings out because of how inspired I was by watching Bloody Bloody, thank you so so much for this video letting me know about this, I doubt I would’ve ever found it on my own and I think I can fairly say it’s securely up there as one of my favorite musicals, also thank you to anyone who actually bothers to read this lol.)
I know you left this comment two years ago, but this exactly what I’m yelling at the screen right now. To me, there’s almost a Brechtian quality to how impersonal Bloody Bloody is. We aren’t meant to empathize with Jackson, we’re supposed to get angry at his hypocrisy and how he paints himself both as the ultimate victim and the ultimate hero. A lot of people, even in this comment section, seem to be missing the satire and that really saddens me. This musical is pastiche, it’s making fun of basically everything it portrays (except the groups Jackson oppresses for his own gain). I think this misunderstanding of the satire is part of why it failed in the first place. Audiences mistook Andrew’s own insistence that he’s tortured and morality grey as Friedman himself insisting such, which is far from what he’s actually doing.
I’ve just found this channel, please keep up the good work
Saw this show at the Public. It was difficult to follow what was happening. It came across as a lot of sound and lights with pretty people rather than a story. That seemed to be the general feeling of the audience members I spoke with. Also, the title was confusing for most people.
I saw it on opening night back in 2010 and immediately thought it was a stroke of brilliant genius. It definitely wasn't what I was expecting but I was so pleased about that. I'm truly sorry more people didn't understand it. I also love punk rock and satire, so there's that. :)
I played Andrew Jackson [even though I’m a BIPOC] in a production. It’s an underrated gem.
Hey man! Great videos. I found you through the Spiderman one and stuck around. You make some excellently researched videos and I know how annoying editing beasts like these can be. You do a great job for an early creator. As a Broadway fanboy myself, it's nice to see videos dissecting my favorite shows and introducing me to new ones.
“Mom can we watch Hamilton?”
“We got Hamilton at home.”
**Hamilton at home**
Shame they didn't write a part in for Jackson's foul-mouthed parrot Poll.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing a piece on this play. My wife and I saw this play in California before it went to Broadway. When we found out it had been picked up we were so happy, and eventually it fell off our radar. Some time had passed and I looked it up to find out that it had been cancelled. We couldn't believe it.
Hamilton is known for creating what we call the federal reserve today, and losing a duel (unlike Jackson who wins after being shot).
This could be a t-shirt
Jackson was a much better president than that baby Hamilton
Well of course Jackson was a better president, Hamilton was never president
It seems like it was too ahead of its time
After watching this, I now realise we shouldn't be comparing Hamilton to Six, but to this. Both are about a political figure's rise to power, and both reminded the creator of one particular music subculture. (Hip hop and Emo respectively.) Also, you should do one for Heathers and Natasha Pierre and the great comet of 1812.
This videos are phenomenal. I love that you dive into the slightly obscure
Thank you so much! The slightly obscure ones are always the most fun:)
@@WaitintheWings I've now seen two of your videos now, excellent work, looking forward to see more
I am so glad that this abysmal attempt at "sarcastic" racism died a very well-deserved death. Love, A Native person.(even that aside, it just wasn't a well-written piece of work. Sometimes things don't do well because they don't deserve to)
+
This is awesome! But I feel like you're hugely understating the fact that Book Of Mormon ended up being the talk of the season that year, and it was already a pretty competitive time for Broadway. Otherwise this was a great throwback!
Just found your channel and I can't wait to see more!
Thanks so much, William! Next video should hopefully be up on the 16th!
Ooh! A new one, and a musical I’ve never heard of before, this looks really great.
Happy to see you came back! Enjoy:)
I never understood why Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson didn't make it but Hamilton did. I saw BBAJ on opening night in 2010 and I thought it was AMAZING. Was so surprised when it closed so quickly, and even more surprised when everyone applauded Hamilton, but no one mentioned that BBAJ had already done that style of historical performance on broadway. To be fair, I also love punk rock, and I get that not everyone loves that. But I thought the show was entertaining, witty and very very clever. And the original Andrew Jackson was a FANTASTIC performer.
I once performed in this play. Our reviews weren’t as good.....
I have had youtube reccomending me this channel and I'm glad I finally decided to click on this channel
Putting aside all the incredible stuff Hamilton did for representation on stage, it has mass appeal and will last longer because it’s not a comedy. Comedy musicals gets dated faster and are always more controversial. Always more niche. The musicals that last forever seem to be dramas
I was working with Alex and Justin on other projects at the time. The thing is, Michael Friedman was a visionary and an absolute genius. I saw the show with a Tony nominator . We didn't comprehend what we were seeing. Populism yeah yeah shows a reflection of 2014-2020. My favorite Friedman show is Fortress of Solitude. Would love your take on that show.
If I did this show, I would rework "The Corrupt Bargain" as a boy-band number with the historical figures dressed like Backstreet Boys from the I Want It That Way video and doing a similarly choreographed dance. This would play much the same as the King George number in Hamilton played as a contrary style to the rest of the show.
Theatre is a medium for the upper-middle classes
Was just saying this
Well theatre culture now for sure. But theatre was originally for the masses, for the poor. Go back to Commedia the audiences were exclusively poor people and commoners. Or Shakespeare where much of the audience was made up of poor people. There are many forms of theatre that are made by and for the poor but they’ve gone out of style, been taken over by flashy commercialization with big sets and surface level themes. It’s up to theatre people to make it more successful and to us as consumers to support local theatre that tries to support the arts and make art for the poor. Like he says in the video we view Broadway as the end all be all but I’ve seen productions of shows that I paid $9 for that meant more to me than the $200 I paid for a Broadway production. Hell I’ve seen really impactful shows for free! I think we could all stand to support local theatre endeavors a little more.
There are so many places besides Broadway/West End to see great theater for not very much money!
broadway and the west end are. theatre is an art form, not a place like broadway
griffin True!!
Thank you for this video, I've always loved this musical album, always thought it was wildly underrated, but didn't know much about its history
Just discovered your channel the other night thanks to the UA-cam recommendations algorithm. (Spider-Man was a great start btw.) Not even 5 minutes into this video when I got a Bill and Ted: Face the Music ad. 🎸
This is a great review!! I listened to the soundtrack off and on in 2014 but forgot about it until now. Seeing Alex Timbers and Benjamin Walker together made me think about how American Psycho flopped - hopefully that’ll be covered in a future video ❤️❤️
I loved this show in high school! Glad to see someone cover it
This is awesome! I’ve never heard of this show and wanna check it out now also keep making videos these are great and are great stuff to listen to while I study great work keep it up big thumbs up.
I'm happy that I can keep you company! Next video is going into post this weekend :)
I don't think it has anything to do with their competing historical personas because until "Hamilton" opened, nobody knew anything about him. He was so unappreciated that he was on the verge of being replaced on the $10 bill. Meanwhile, we all know about Jackson and the Trail of Tears and it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. It's shameful history, regardless of his other accomplishments.
Could you do WWW?'s on Carrie The Musical & Seusical?
Seussical is coming up on February 29th for our first ever What Went Wrong Live in front of a studio audience!!
Looking forward to more of this video series!
With the release of Hamilton on Disney+ this weekend, my feeds have been inundated with an outpouring of love for the show but also commentary about some of its problems in the age of Trump. I've been working on gathering my thoughts in regards to this and, as I have always thought of Bloody Bloody as a precursor of sorts for Hamilton (assuming the view of Oskar Eustis, the artistic director of The Public Theater), it has led me into analytic thoughts about this show too. I really appreciate finding this commentary. I'll definitely be pointing to your video in my own analysis of the two musicals.
Great documentary about Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, which I saw -- and loved -- at the Public. One quibble: the Macbeth quote is "the be-all and end-all..." "If it were done then tis well it t'were done quickly..."
Why did I think the writer was Onision?
A theater here in San Antonio Tx did it a few years ago. I enjoyed it.
How did it take until hearing you say it for me to realize you specifically document the history of flops. I've been like "I wanna hear about ____" about hits like a dumbass lol
One more aspect thats perhaps not thought about is how education can keep a show in younger peoples’ minds. The English departments in my public high school use Hamilton to teach students poetry and literary devices in pop culture. I (history teacher) reference Hamilton because it’s literally in my scope and sequence. Bloody bloody can’t be. It’s too much and Andrew Jackson really is a bastard if you research him
I love this show. Really hope it can be revived, not necessarily on Broadway. Also I feel a wacky indie movie version could work too!
I think what often gets missed in people comparing it to Hamilton is that Friedman is making fun of emo’s just as much as he’s making fun of Jackson. The whole “my life sucks in particular” essence of white privileged kids getting so consumed by their own perceived suffering that they become completely blind to the reality of the world is smarter than people realize. Andrew Jackson wasn’t a populist in the truest sense, he pretended to care about the people when he really only cared about the betterment of himself. He saw himself as the ultimate victim. It’s not a sympathetic portrayal, it’s the story of a man so caught up in the mires of his own mundane misery and up his own ass that he committed genocide to create the world HE wanted. It’s not a love letter to emo music the same way Hamilton is a love letter to hip hop, it’s a pastiche of emo culture to highlight the absurdity of both it and Andrew.
I don’t know if I commented this yet but, would you consider doing a video on Goosebumps the musical: phantom of the auditorium? I don’t know if it’s a big thing but I noticed on wikipedia it says that it ran from 2016-2017 but the original cast recording was released very recently. Again it’s probably not anything big, I don’t know if that’s normal for a musical or not
I am so glad I came across your videos. Just subscribed. Can you do a what went wrong with glory days. I absolutely love the album and have been listening it on repeat.
I'm so happy you're here! I'll have to add it to my list!
@@WaitintheWings thanks it has great music but I think it opened and closed the same day on broadway.
I forgot this happened. Was just thinking about 1917 'Hamilton' and 1766 the other day
I’m so glad someone else brought up Mr. Burns...that show felt like a weird fever dream
love these vids! you seem to know alot about the business side of broadway, could you do a video on what the corona virus wll mean for shows in the long run?
I mean Emo music could get pretty traditionally musical theater at times
Like maybe they were drawing from some of Panic! At The Disco’s earlier output
Especially Fever
Great video!
Since you asked about if there was a BBAJ ref in Hamilton how's about this:
“We'll take, and we'll take, and we'll take, and we'll take.”
_~The Saddest Song (BBAJ)_
“It takes and it takes and it takes and we...”
_~Wait For It_
Swados is pronounced Sway-dose. She was a big deal, it's only appropriate to pronounce her name correctly.
And the ultimate reason for the show not connecting with audiences is that Timbers is ridiculously clever, but his work has less in the way of heart. Which is what Broadway audiences respond to most.
I would love to hear you discuss Rebecca or Wonderland
I think you kind of hand waved the impact that it’s a musical about the president who tried to genocide Native Americans had on this show not being more mainstream popular…
Hey, would you mind linking the bootleg of the show? I cant find it anywhere haha. I hope it wasn't taken down or something.
Fingerpainting in a Murphy Bed is a really good example of a fine play that never made it to B'way. Not even off-B'way in NYC.
Could you please send me a link to the musical?
One of my all time favs! I talk about it too in one of my videos :-)
It has been almost a decade since I have seen this show in NYC and it still in my top 10 theater going experiences. It was magical. It made me fall in love with Ben Walker. I got to see Alex and Michael talk after the show. I mean who would have known how appropriate the show would be now in 2020. Populism yeah yeah.
Great video
Benjamin Walker did fantastic in this and sad that he didn’t get much accolade for it… which was ironically similar to his run on American Psycho… I wonder why?
Any chance you can make an episode on American Psycho?
Great video.
I clicked on this because it's one of my favorite musicals XD
I would love to see a video on the Great Comet of 1812
What was that birthing scene thing from?
Huh, I wonder how the guy would’ve done as Beast.
We've reached a time where there's a lot more nostalgia for emo culture and a lot of the people that were part of that emo wave from the 2000s are now older and more financially stable. Maybe that combination will lead to a great second wind for a revival, or it will just become a stronger, cult and off-Broadway classic.