O Glorious Day, It Sounds Like More Top-Down Zelda Is Coming
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- Опубліковано 23 лис 2024
- Echoes of Wisdom seems to have rekindled Aonuma's love for "2D" Zelda.
Footage by @ZackScottGames
Editing and thumbnail by kanesthename
Channel art by @PaintraSeaPea
see this is the way. Mario, Zelda and Metroid all ought to alternate between 2D and 3D entries, each made by different teams.
Kirby too. And I would like DK to be on that list too. Give him a second shot at 3D. (Or even just make another 2D one, it’s been 10 years…)
i think something like this would generally benefit all long running series that have at least 2 major types of gameplay. monster hunter already does this switching between larger and slower-paced hunts i.e in world and quick fast-paced hunts in rise.
fire emblem really comes to mind for me as a series that would benefit from doing this by switching between more open sandbox-y experiences like three houses and more on rails gameplay like the gba games and por.
@@vivi1649 Splitting hairs. We all know topdown is the more accurate term, but 2D is the common vernacular informed by the context.
@@extremepayneWe don’t know if it sill hold true for Kirby yet.
@@tolstartheking “ought” to. It’s barely been true for Metroid-only really for a short while during the GBA/GC era. It might be true again if Prime 4 gets followed up by a 2D entry
Love that Aonuma is having a change of heart on the 2D Zelda series. He must have experienced the joys of the Jumbo Jack deal, a deal that if implemented with the correct coupon can get you 8 burgers for $10, and dramatically improved his overall mood and quality of life
So true
god i actually fucking love jack in the box so much, the Ultimate Cheeseburger is legitimately one of the tastiest, gooiest burgers ever
We don't have Jack in the Box here, but I've seen them before. I can't remember if I've had it before or not.
A change of heart from what?
I just hope Grezzo can keep making original Zelda titles. Even if EoW isn't everyone's thing, it clearly proved that these devs have talent and passion to do more than remakes.
Even if they are "boring traditional" 2d zelda, theres plenty of ways to make stuff, I want more traditional "hard puzzles" no more easy baby stuff
As someone who didn't love EoW, I agree 100%. They have so much experience with the series already, so why not give them the keys to see how they do for a while?
There is always the dungeon maker concept that birthed EoW to make still.
Zelda is starting to remind me of a band that does a string of amazing albums that are each moderate successes, but then they release an album that is still good but has a very different sound, but completely blows all previous albums out of the water in terms of sales. And then that album becomes their sound from now on.
so BoTW is Zelda's equivalent of the Black Album by Metallica
I mean that how Zelda has been every time. Followed the ocarina of time game model until they found another avenue to tell their story
Botw beats skyward sword without even trying. That style got stale.
fucking nailed it
@@iggypop2026I would argue that Skyward Sword had a better story, better side quests, better characters, better dungeons, and arguably better combat (depending on how much you prefer motion control shenanigans over physics engine shenanigans) than BotW.
If it wasn't for the fact that it was so linear, the Sky Islands so barren, and OG Fi being so intrusive, it would have held up just fine alongside the prior 3D Zelda games.
I think the echoes worked because I found a few I liked and THOSE felt like the dungeon items
The Great Fairy made the game really fun, too. Some of those equippables REALLY felt like upgrades. The frog one? Changed the game.
I beat the game like a month ago, and reading this comment made me realize I completely forgot about the Great Fairy throughout the whole game. Lol
The frog accessory is the only one that actually feels like an upgrade, to the point that it's objectively better than every other accessory and one you will never unequip once you got it.
Every other accessory is pretty situational, they definitely don't feel like a permanent upgrade
@@FDL_1401 The climbing speed upgrade was a must too. There are ladders and walls all over the game, and speeding them up just makes the whole game smoother. IMO it's almost on par with the swift sail from Wind Waker U.
@@FDL_1401 I kept the defense charm on for the rest of the game as well, never switched that one out if I could avoid it
My problem isn't that there weren't items that felt like dungeon items. I got the exact feeling you did in the first 2 hours. My problem is that there are no longer any points that gate progression by items you get later in the game, so with the exception of the final dungeon (which itself has like 2 puzzles?), they have to treat you like you're either just starting the game, or after the first 4 dungeons, half way through. I legitimately can't remember a single puzzle that challenged me in a meaningful way. Every puzzle I came across I knew how to beat the second I looked at it, and execution wasn't necessary a challenge either with 20 different ways to beat each one. I miss being stumped by something, putting it down, and then it hitting me as I'm falling asleep or going on a walk the next day.
I don't think the open endedness is the problem, but that you can just cheeze the puzzles too easily. Open ended puzzles can be tricky and interesting.
I agree. Open-opened puzzles are very tricky. In echoes, I know players can cheese many of the puzzles by using the water blocks to essentially skip the puzzle. The same thing happened in TOTK. It kinda defeats the purpose of the puzzle, which is a shame
i think the issue is that nintendo wants to balance their games in a way where anyone can beat it, regardless of their approach. so they kinda have to create a bunch of potential solutions to puzzles, which inevitably leads to many puzzles that can just be solved the same way cuz certain solutions just have so much use. i think they just need to find that middle ground. allow for creative "outside the box" thinking in puzzles, but don't give the player a nearly infinitely sized toolbox like in Echoes
The lack of story and easy combat doesn't work either.
A middle ground should be established if anything.
Also the fact that there were no significant rewards for exploring beyond heart pieces and ore. I stopped caring about chests hours into the game
1:20 one thing that people don't usually look at is the economy, people buy more games when they have more to spend
This guys gets it.
The economy is going to continue to impact our hobbies!! Even independent studios that are free from shareholder pressure are folding in these market conditions.
There is uncertainty everywhere
The US economy is doing well at the moment. Both real wages and discretionary consumer spending are up, across the income distribution.
this is not felt by most consumers.
Nice profile
"Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game." this is a quote attributed to Soren Johnson who is a designer on the Civilazion series, and I think it describes the puzzle design problem of modern zelda, but specifically the last 2.
If every puzzle has infinite solutions, then every puzzle has one solution. They basically all feels like that "it goes in the square hole" video
It's a big reason why I bounced off TotK so hard
Yes I -could- build a super wacky machine to solve a puzzle in a unique way but why put in all that effort when the same solution has worked for this puzzle type and is super easy to do, has worked every single time.
There are people who do like to go out of their way but they are much more of a minority honestly.
@@Bread-kun the game is as boring as the person who's playing it. I will take a game that will let me approach a problem however I want over one who will have a specific, "genius" answer for each challenge any day. Literally not the game's fault if people are lazy.
Expect that "problem" seems to be affecting just a minority of the players, this open solution formula has been so successful because players love experimenting different solutions to a problem. For a lot of people solving a puzzle in a way it isn't intended is the appeal of these games, it is very rewarding to find your own solution. No two playthroughs are the same, and the way that your friend solved the problem can be way different than the way you solved it. At the end, you control the buttons you press.
@@Bread-kun People bounced off the older style of Zelda games as seen with Skyward Sword even if that had its own issues. This is a new paradigm of Zelda and if you're not connecting with it, that's fine, but more people than ever are connecting with Zelda as seen by the sales numbers. They won't go back to the old style because some people want to. They just do whatever they want and design the games they want to. Which is probably the correct way to go about it otherwise you stagnate. Maybe they'll go back to the old style but who knows. They do what they think is best instead of trying to please fans more broadly.
@@alecamp5369 and more people eat at McDonalds in a month than every Michelin star restaurant in their combined existence. It being popular doesn’t change the fact that it’s objectively bad game design.
It feels like the Zelda team has always had a particular fondness for specifically ALttP and LA, and it's their attachment to those that have allowed 2D Zeldas to live.
I really want something truly new, though. It doesn't have to be entirely unique or a return to form. But it'd be nice to have something take place in another kingdom again!
Yeah, LttP is clearly the devs' favourite, considering how often they return to the decline timeline. Heck, Link's "hero outfit" in BotW also clearly draws more from the "look" of the decline timeline than the usual "look" of the 3D adult Links. LttP gets a sequel/semi-remake 22 years later, while the other timelines haven't been touched with a ten foot pool since the aughts.
I agree and i think alot of the dullness is coming from using Hyrule kingdom most of the time of to many damn times already when we should be exploring other lands and there lore storys
Like
OOA and OOS did this
Triforce heros did this
And no i dont count
Majora since its just a alternate dimension of Hyrule kingdom
Phantom because its a dream world dimension
Sprit tracks its new land yes but just a new skin Hyrule kingdom when honestly they should have called the land something else
And
Links awakening because yes its in the land of Zelda but its just another dream world that actually doesn't exist
So yeah so far OOA and OOS and TFH were really the only ones that took place away from Hyrule in it's world in a different land I WANT MORE OF THAT NINTENDO I want more of that
Mario to be honest has absolutely beaten zelda into the ground with no competition with creative new premises when it comes to new location and stuff thats just a fact right there.
I mean Mario in mother F@#$... outer space yeah just saying.
@@tinyetoile5503 I think BotW's Hero of the Wild outfit was specifically designed after the first game's character art, because BotW was supposed to be a soft reboot of the whole series and that was one of the ways they acknowledged their roots.
@@tinyetoile5503 i'm pretty sure the Tunnic of the Wild is literally the Zelda 1 sprite but more detailed
@tatltails3923 @Artista_Frustrado
You think I don't know that? You realize which timeline Hyrule Fantasy and Adventure of Link take place in, right? LttP uses the yellow undershirt look (because thay was just Link's character design at the time), and it's become the standardized "look" of the decline timeline ever since there was timeline shenanigans to be had. The only one that doesn't use it is triforce heroes because that game uses the toon artstyle instead.
As someone currently fighting my fourth-ever bout with Covid, I am HERE for all the Arlo content this week!!!
Get well soon!
Fourth???
@@platinum-or3ypeople have easily had it 5/6 times stop being the sickness judge
is sthat still a thing? last time i wore a mask and had was in 2022 wtf bruh 😂😂
I agree, open-ended puzzles should be used sparingly, not be the main type of puzzle. When a puzzle has dozens of solutions it's not a puzzle anymore, it's an obstacle.
True but have 2-4 solutions is fine they all have to be one solution puzzles I find those get boring quickly.
@@THEONETRUEOVERLORD I think a mix is fine. One-solution puzzles, I find, are a mixed bag; I prefer them because they require you to think and figure out the intended solution, and some of the most memorable puzzles in Zelda are single-solution puzzles. But sometimes the solutions are BS or poorly telegraphed, and that can be an issue.
In those situations, have a couple of options is good. For example, I liked the BotW shrine puzzle where you can either guide a ball through a maze, or just flip the entire maze upside down and move the ball on a completely flat surface. That's out of the box thinking, and I like that.
But I don't like the puzzles in TotK where, once you know you can just shoot a bomb arrow at the big target instead of moving the shrine orb to it, that becomes the most efficient solution to most of those puzzles, and is the path of least resistance in those shrines because you go in already knowing the quickest answer to the puzzles.
My two favourite puzzle solving moments in TotK were me using Ascend and carefully walking along the metal railing I was supposed to use a custom-built machine to traverse, just using balance and patience to walk along the tightrope instead, and another shrine where I used the shrine orb to a weapon, catapulted Link across the room and slapped the target with my sword, instead of figuring out how to manage the weight of the orb to aim it properly. That was before I knew the bomb arrow trick, and I enjoyed finding a way around the puzzle in that regard.
But "puzzles" that are just rock/paper/scissors obstacles like "bed beats narrow gap, water column beats slight wall", I don't consider those puzzles at all.
Omg I never thought about using the follow command on a spider echo to climb walls, I feel so stupid lol, I always just spammed boxes, trees and clouds.
It's literally the first thing I did with spiders... and then I completely forgot about it afterwards.
I latched onto the spider echoes right away, but I also didn't realize I could Echo the elevator-y enemy until the endgame
It was in the trailer...
@@rizzystardust2404 Not everyone watches trailers. In-fact, I find Nintendo's marketing really bad and off-putting.
I really liked Echoes of Wisdom, but I think a lot of my enjoyment stems from me not engaging 100% with every single gameplay possibility. I forgot about Reverse Bind immediately, didn’t realize you could use the spider to bypass the majority of the environmental obstacles and limited myself to a handful of echoes that weren’t overwhelmingly op (not on purpose, I just lost interest in trying out new echoes after my inventory was full of fifty thousand of them). I’m actually glad I did those things, since the limitations forced me to think creatively instead of taking the easiest solution. After a while, specifically after getting the water block, things do start to feel a little easy and stale, but for the most part the exerpience was neat and focused. I hope the Zelda team loses their aversion to limitations and realize that all the freedom isn’t always a good thing 😅
I think this is ultimately how Arlo and other people should've approached this game actually. I went through practically the entire game not knowing how to get the automatons. I was able to find Dampe's shack but was only able to get my first few automatons right before I was about to do the Lanayru Temple. The idea that you can limit what echoes you want to use is why I love this game. The game doesn't annoy the players by constantly encouraging them to use different echoes through dialogue. It doesn't force you to go and find the most OP echoes either so if anything, Echoes of Wisdom can very much feel like the top-down Zelda games of old in that regard.
@@fenrirslip If you didn't immediate learn basically anything you just defeated and had limited resource to learn needed ones it would have been a far far better game. They could base the main path puzzles on whats available so far and put extra stuff off the main path for extra stuff if you figure out a way to get it sooner rather than later. So many possibilities for a semi linear puzzle path but no they just let go wherever get everything and forget about everything as you go cuz its not engaging at all.
In my case at least, when the switch came out, I was in high school and had a lot more time to play games. I bought most of the major releases. I am now college graduate and have a lot less time, and so I have skipped many games that looked appealing to me.
Now I only really pick up switch games that are supposedly absolutely amazing instead of simply great.
Yet you have time to watch topic arlo?
@ As background noise while doing work, or when taking a break, yes. What I do not often have time to do is play every new game as they come out. I have a backlog now despite rarely buying games.
@mrbraudichoei Hmmmm, 120 hours to play Tears of the Kingdom, or 15 minutes video while I have lunch, hmmmmm
@@mrbraudichoei Everyone should take the time to watch TopicArlo.
I really hope we can go back to a more linear approach. I loved Link's Awakening and Oracle of Ages, and it would be a shame to not have anything like that again
Wish there was more 3D OoT style Zelda coming.
Somehow, that is basically how I read the title! But alas, no.
I wouldn't be surprised if a hybridization of both formulas is Nintendo's next goal for the series.
We already have plenty of titles in that style. The last thing we should be encouraging is for them to bleed it dry.
One thing I think people are ignoring are that yes, new people are buying switches, however not everyone who owns a switch is actively using it now. I’ve barely used my switch this year and have mostly been playing games through my computer and steam deck. So while the install base is growing, not all of those numbers are for people who are actively using their switches or are just waiting for the next system to come.
plus, new people are more likely to buy the older (i.e. more popular) games than anything else. say you just got a switch; why buy echoes of wisdom when you've been missing out on mario kart, smash bros, and breath of the wild this whole time?
My Switch legitimately just broke.
I can't turn my switch on, it's broken.
And then my thought process is... Why would I buy a new one now?! When we all know the SWITCH 2 is around the corner. Yeah no... I'm not buying a new one now. I'm waiting.
And I did want to play the dragon Quest III re-make on Switch, but yeah I'm waiting.
I don’t know how he can say they’ve run out of ideas. Every single Zelda game has had unique dungeons and puzzles and they were all great. No idea where he got this feeling from
Man I just want regular 3d zelda formula.
I'm glad 2D Zelda is getting another chance to shine, but I hope they don't go ALL in on freedom like they've done with 3D Zelda. Sad that the sales are so low compared to the recent 3D games. I imagine with how much people love the new open world style of Zelda, going back to a more linear 3D game would result in similarly low sales.
They should make the open world smaller but more interesting.
@@jameslawrenson1208 I can accept the world being open if the dungeons aren’t. Echoes did it well with groups of dungeons where you can’t do some of them until you did the previous group.
Think the main problem with Echoes of Wisdom was that it felt like 90% of all puzles could be solved by stacking a bunch of beds on top of eachother so you just had a staircase. And more or less all bosses sorta was just turn into link when they fall down and smack them around. It never really felt like the echoes made you all that powerful without relying on Link.
I really like how the game ended on the other hand.
thank god man. i can’t be the only one who was a huge Zelda fan before BOTW and want to see the rest of what the series has in store instead of just this one iteration of Hyrule.
hell, the massive timeline is part of what drew me in to begin with. it’s crazy to me that some new fans will think Zelda only has one protagonist :(
I hope we can get a new 3D Zelda that isn't open world someday as well. Something more in the vein of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess.
0:26 Only four days, actually. EoW released on September 26th and the report accounted for up to the 30th. Considering how Switch games don't really have legs anymore, I doubt that means it's going to sell a crap ton, I'm guessing this is still the majority of EoW's total sales. I'm guessing we're gonna get like 4 million total? Maybe a little less?
3:10 If Nintendo wanted to encourage players to use different echoes, they really missed a good opportunity to just add in a quick-action button that randomly spawns one of your echoes, at least for offense.
I know I would’ve used it, especially if it kept me active in the game rather than moving through a menu!
Echoes of Wisdom was a solid 7/10 for me. It was ok, but.... i miss the Oracle games, Minish Cap, and even Link between Worlds
I couldn't get into the Oracle games, but Minish Cap and Link Between Worlds are *miles* ahead of Echoes...
I think most games that transitioned from 2D to 3D, should still have a sub-series that goes back to it's series roots. Not just because it gets people nostalgic but also because 2D and 3D gameplay are different enough to justify it. I love the fact that we're getting new 2.5D Sonic games alongside mainline Sonic games. While I never really cared to much for top down Zelda, going as far as preferring Blossom Tales, and the Capcom handheld Zelda games over something like Link's Awakening, there should be more creativity with Zelda. I kind of hope we see the same thing with Pokemon, heck, I would personally love it if they had a sub-series that kept the sprite work of the GBA/DS games.
As someone who doesn’t like botw and totk, it was nice having a game with all of these solutions to the puzzles without being too open-ended. However, I don’t think a system like this is something that needs to be part of the Zelda formula. If they do in fact keep making 2d Zelda games, then they definitely should go back to dungeon items.
I disagree with you about Wonder/NSMBU sales, at the pace Wonder is selling, it's definitely going to surpass NSMBU in its lifetime (for instance, the game is tracking a little bit behind how Wii did which can confidently put Wonder at a 22-25m sales LTD)
Let's be clear, this is not more top down zelda, its more top down tears of the kingdom. The distinction is important.
Scrolling definitely didn’t encourage me to use anything new. I feel like I used the same five echoes the entire game.
As a fellow game dev, there are other ways to make seldom used echoes more appealing. If that's the goal one take they could do is make any echoes you haven't used in say 2 hours cost 1 less triangle.
I loved BotW. But I feel this new structure got stale already with Totk. I really hope they keep optimizing top down Zeldas without losing their essence.
Nah. It hasn’t gotten stale. There is still so much more they can do.
@@alecamp5369 i played hundreds of hours of botw, but could not for the life of me even complete the story of totk.
@@EmilAhvenainenhundreds of hours of both 💪💪
Same I miss the dungeon item juice combo. The metroidvania if you will of Past Zelda's. And I feel like they never really Incorporated that part into the overworld all that well, there's a lot of room for improvement and I'm worried we'll never see it now
Wdym by the structure? There’s still tons of potential for open world zelda. We already know that the next one is going to have some big changes anyway, it’s not going to be botw 3 or anything.
Zelda has left me feeling deflated after the last couple of games. I loved BotW, and TotK. But after both I was left wanting more core Zelda puzzle solving and progression to return. I couldn't even finish EoW, I am literally at the final dungeon and it just never stuck with me. There's a middle ground here between open and linear which EoW felt like it tried to enter but for me it failed in its execution. It might just be time for me to give Zelda a rest for a while.
Think of it like a pendulum. Hopefully it has reached its crux and will start swinging in a new direction.
I agree with the sentiment, but unfortunately we're not at the crux yet. Aunuma seems fully energized to keep making open air, million ways to beat a puzzle game design. So if this lasts as long as the first era (OoT-SS, 5 games), we're just past the second, and still have 3 more to go, and when each game takes 6 or 7 years to make, it's hard not to feel a little cynical for those of us ready to move on to a new kind of Zelda already.
@@artisanstudios180 It doesn't help how you can see the amount of dungeons/temples/puzzles have been shrinking through the series, almost like they just don't want to bother anymore. Windwaker was rushed like crazy and they have only gotten worse
I think you’re a tad harsh on Echoes but I understand.
Zelda should focus on the traditional style and just enhance story beats and combat. Personally would like to see a 3D imagining of the final level in Zelda 1. Labyrinth maze like dungeons (not like BotW) would be incredible.
Two things can be true. Skyward Sword can have been kind of a stinker AND there can still be some opportunity to utilize pre-BoTW style in fresh and interesting ways
If there is more original new top down Zeldas in the future that pleases me. Despite any fault this game might have, the echo mechanic is so fun to me that this game is amongst my favorite Zelda games I’ve played, about 15-17 hours in
The plan seems to have always been to have Grezzo take over 2D Zelda. Like how Mercury Steam took over 2D Metroid. Also Echoes of Wisdom does have item-based progression. Every object that you can turn into an echo is an item.
You also mentioned that each game doesn't need to have a revolutionary new idea but then praised the wall-merging mechanic from A Link Between Worlds, that was their big idea for that game. Mario and Zelda games are primarily built upon new gameplay ideas that radically alters how players interact with the world. Like FLUDD from Sunshine or time travel in Oracle of Ages.
Wow, Arlo and I see perfectly eye-to-eye on Zelda. I don't think any of the bigger names in the Nintendo space have really said they were disappointed in BOTW/TOTK. I was. I enjoyed those two a lot, but they're not ALTTP. Echoes of Wisdom was honestly a step in the right direction. True dungeons, good bosses, okay music, and a story that doesn't have me getting the details in memories. It's much better. I hope we continue to see Zelda blend classic and more modern Zelda game designs. Maybe we'll see some of the more classic 3D games *truly* remade (like Ocarina of Time) in a modern engine (but not like the Unreal crap you see all over UA-cam).
Thanks for the video, Arlo. I stand by you on this!
random, but have you played Tunic? i dont even like 2D zelda that much, but i thought that game was incredible. nails that "puzzle box" appeal of 2D zelda perfectly imo, with some puzzle solutions that genuinely blew my mind
@ctpp64 I haven't, actually. I've heard it's pretty darn good, but didn't realize it was so similar to Zelda. I'll definitely look into it. Thanks for the recommendation!
We are never going back to OOT it was clearly worse and it sold worse. People who like the old games are a minority SS was an old style game and it sold worse than the LA remake
@@THEONETRUEOVERLORD The problem with Skyward Sword is not that it was an old-style game, but that it was a badly made old-style game. Even with the Motion Plus, the motion-based controls were only mostly reliable - which is fine for cutting grass, but frustrating when facing one of the enemies that does directional blocking with an electric baton, so you need to change your aim fast enough that the blocking can't keep up, but not fast enough that the game interprets it as a slash causing you to take damage...
And then there was the repetition of zones and boss fights.
And Fi was irritating, with her spurious - and inaccurate - precision. If you predict an 80% chance of something ten times, then it should go the other way about twice. Fi has a couple of hundred percentages in the game, and they never go the other way...
And then there was the repetition of zones and boss fights.
And, of course, the game originally shipped with a game-breaking bug, which was patched almost immediately, but meant those of us who got the game day one and ran into the bug because we talked to the wrong NPC 90% of the way through the game got to experience the already repetitious elements repeating again.
And then there was the repetition of zones and boss fights.
And the Sky was mostly disappointing - a bit like the Great Sea in Wind Waker, it's mostly empty with filler locations, and a handful of actually interesting locations to visit.
It's no surprise that the worst example of a particular type of game sold badly.
@ OoT is literally the second highest game on metacritic with a score of 99/100. To say it's clearly worse is nonsense. And besides, OoT came out in a time where gaming as an industry was a lot smaller, and thus had less possible buyers. An Ocarina remake on the switch would sell like crazy. There were plenty of reasons for people to dislike SS, but it's not because the formula of LoZ has suddenly gone stale, it was because of the many problems unique to SS. The fact that it sold less than LAr, which is also traditional zelda, is mostly due to its bad reputation and the fact that the switch has a massive customer-base compared to the wii, which sold a lot, but mostly for stuff like wii sports.
At this point, there are four distinct categories of Zelda games that would doubtlessly be viable:
- A Link to the Past style
- A Link Between Worlds/Echoes of Wisdom (semi-open) style
- Ocarina of Time style
- Breath of the Wild style
They could honestly be sub-divided further, and Nintendo need to remember that actual sprite and tile-based art is both beautiful and less demanding.
I'd say that Majora's Mask, Triforce Heroes and Zelda 2 are their own things too and really could be viable but they just abandoned those categories at this point.
They should remake the Oracle games and then finish the trilogy.
Yes, don’t let the classic style of Zelda die Anouma. Just cause these games aren’t as big and open as BOTW/TOTK doesn’t mean they don’t have value.
I know people don't always want a remake. Can I get remake of those games that started my enjoyment for this series? The oracle games I would love a remake of unless that needs capcom again I am not sure.
EoW connected with me more than BoTW so I don’t mind this.
True for me too, at least when comparing EoW to TotK. TotK was just too big, and too much engineer simulator. Echoes at least was small enough that I could dip into the new system and really feel like I'm learning it, instead of just getting overwhelmed with the possibilities in TotK
10:05 I was worried about this when the first Ultrahand trailer released and I've been talking about it since. It really sucks seeing people slowly coming to the same conclusion.
Also, I swear with every new interview it sounds like Aonuma is losing faith in the Zelda series more and more. First he didn't understand why people liked the linear 3D Zelda games, then he thought 2D Zelda had no place in the series anymore... While I'm happy he's starting to get his head back in the game, it doesnt exactly inspire confidence that the face of the Zelda series was thinking all of this in the first place
I agree. But the thing is with creative people like that, is they are their own biggest critics. They often think their earlier work is trash.
I was just watching a video yesterday that listed the very few Beatles songs that John Lennon liked.
@PalaeoJoe I know that feeling all too well
I mostly agree, I like EoW a bit more than you did and thought it did open ended puzzles a lot better than TotK but even then it still falls quite short of Link's Awakening, the Oracle games and so on. I am a bit worried that Aonuma still has it in his head that limitation is inherently bad. The item system in traditional Zelda always left enough room to try new things because what the item did could be anything.
Honestly, I think that Nintendo just has some sort of grudge against the TP and SS UI designers, considering that they keep using ribbon menus in games that focus on quickswapping between tools/abilities despite having learned that a snappy quickswap ring works perfectly for that in those two games.
Like, I'm pretty sure that putting the hand powers on a quickswap ring in TotK while leaving everything else on ribbon menues was specifically to give a middle finger to people (read: me) who had been begging to put everything on quickswap rings during BotW's era, to show that they could, but we're specifically costing not to. Especially with how they put the map on one of those permanent quickswap ring slots, even though you can usually access it with one button press most of the time.
The bit about not being inspired to try new Echoes- Fair enough if it didn’t work, but that is something that should be encouraged.
Not only it didn't work, but for some people the UI is so bad that it actively discouraged them for trying new echoes.
Nobody would argue that encouraging player experimentation is a bad thing, but the linear scrolling of TOTK and Echoes definitely isn't the way to go
worked for me.
The way to encourage players to use new echoes is to create puzzles that can *only* be solved with that new echo, much like the key items of games past. But that goes against the “do whatever you want!” philosophy of recent games. The devs can’t have it both ways, IMO
The way they went about it is just wrong as players will just reuse the same echoes to avoid having to scroll through the item menu, which is exactly the opposite of what they were trying to accomplish. It also doesn’t help that the default menu, Most Recent, the one most players will use, will put new echoes at the very back of the list so odds are you will never use a new echo if you don’t immediately use one after acquiring it and instead it’ll just sit at the back of the list forever. A better solution would’ve been a grid menu of about 4-5 lines so you have multiple options on screen at once and can immediately spot the echo you need or spot another echo that might also do the job. That would both be far more convenient and would open the player up to more experimentation, and would make it so you only have to scroll once or twice before reaching the end of the list.
The immediate backpedal at 10:34 was hilarious, I don't know if it was intentional or not.
He said enjoy them that much anymore and then enjoy to a degree, it makes sense
I really enjoyed Echoes of Wisdom, but the echoes really did become less and less relevant the more you got, because you got the one set of specific ones you used for everything and that was it, the UI was awful but i think the actual worst part was the lock on camera, because it was so inconsistent and would never lock on to what i wanted it to.
EoW gets an 8 from me, most of that comes from the story and being able to play as zelda, i think I would prefer a more traditional 2D zelda game starring zelda where she just gets spells like link gets items.
This is really good news. I wonder if the top-down Zelda games will go back to having Link as the protagonist or continue to have Zelda as the protagonist. I suppose it will all depend on what core gameplay mechanic they come up with next; personally, I hope to see the return of something like Spirit Tracks, where the player controls both Link and Zelda.
Of course, Arlo posts this a day after I finally clear A Link Between Worlds (my first Zelda game). Absolutely wonderful game and what they did with Ravio was a clever reference back to Link to the Past.
I don't think I'll be that interested if it's super open like EoW was. It was cool but it only made me miss traditional 2D Zelda puzzles even more.
I think there should always be a couple Zelda games in development at any time. The big next generation game that are massive with fanfare - Ocarina, WW, TP, BOTW - and old engine stop gaps.
Majora's Mask, TOTK, and Echoes all use a previous game's engine but are great. They all build on the previous one with new mechanics and are very polished. Something like that once in a while is welcome.
I agree with open ended solution problem with Tears of The Kingdom but NOT Echoes of Wisdom, because unlike TOTK you couldn’t just do whatever and things would work out with no effort, in Echoes you still have to come with a decently thought out solution. Echoes open ended puzzles still had lots of wrong paths you could take to solve something whereas TOTK anything and everything no matter how hard or easy could solve the problem.
Honestly, I'd be satisfied if the next 2D Remake is a Combined Oracle Remake. If they wanted a add more content for Farore than I'd be fine with that as well.
Nintendo has been like this for a while, they are hesitant to just *make another one* there always has to be some gimmick
Because mainline Zelda games come out once every 6 years, 2D Zelda games could fit the gaps between them.
I think the whole open-ended puzzle thing is an instance of right motivations, wrong conclusion. It's good to motivate players to try out a lot of things to solve puzzles and reward them for their creativity, but they took it way too far in the recent Zelda games by designing puzzles with NO prescribed solutions and just giving the players a bunch of generic tools to handle any situation. I think the happy medium is when you have puzzles that you can approach from multiple angles, but each possible solution makes sense and was intentionally designed to reward the player for thinking to approach the problem in that specific way. I always come back to this example, but no matter how much people shit on Skyward Sword because they're mad about motion controls, Skyward Sword ultimately got it right when it comes to creative problem solving. The Imprisoned fights are really tedious if you turn off your brain and attack the toes like you THINK they want you to do, but like a lot of the boss fights (and combat in general) they reward you for thinking outside of the box and jumping on top of the Imprisoned's head from above. You can do the fights WAY faster doing them like Shadow of the Colossus, and it's way more fun, but you have to get out of the old Zelda mindset of 1 boss 1 solution.
I'd love to see another game using a similar system and having Zelda as the main player character.
Not every new game has to be experimental or innovative. They can always do classic ideas but with more ambitious design and presentation allowed by improved hardware.
There’s no problem with doing A Link to the Past “yet again” if the world is larger and more intricately detailed. There are plenty of things they can do to make the games more complex and interesting without breaking the mold.
I love Echoes of Wisdom. It's really fresh and challenging in a different way. I love Link's Awakening and other top down Zeldas but I am really happy that they are experimenting this way with the playstyle. Now that Zelda is a possible avenue for gameplay, I think the future of the series is going to be really really cool.
I really want more "2D" games, but i hope they make them feel worth more, or drop the price.
Games like Advance Wars, 2D Zelda, Let's Go, Mario vs DK and more have that "plastic toy" feel which is nice but not amazing.
I've said it before and i say it again. Put BotW and LttP side by side, or NSMBU Deluxe and Odyssey. Or Let's Go and Scarlet/Violet. Same price.
It’s funny that this topic is coming out when I’m in the middle of playing A Link to the Past. Man… that game still kicks ass. Made me hungry for more “modern” too down Zelda aside from Link’s Awakening DX and A Link Between Worlds.
12:50 talking about an infinitely replayable top-down Zelda games: more people need to play Cadence of Hyrule, the only Zelda game with a built-in randomizer. I wish that was a thing in all Zelda and Metroid games moving forward
I'll be honest, I found myself experimenting with a lot of echoes in Echoes of Wisdom. I obviously had my favorites, but I can see what Nintendo was trying to do. For whatever reason, I had no problem with having to scroll through the menu trying to find the echoes that I wanted. Perhaps that's because I'm used to doing the same in TOTK, I don't know. But it overall became second nature to me and didn't bother me whatsoever.
I don't even know how they could've done it differently. Let's also not forget that the older 2D/top-down Zelda games did the same thing. Sure, you're able to set items to the A or B buttons and whatnot, but if you wanted to change what item you were using you'd have to go into the items menu. So in hindsight, this doesn't come as a surprise to me. If anything, Echoes of Wisdom reminds me mostly of the Oracle games since they had you switching between items like crazy in those games, and not a single item went unused. Granted, in Echoes of Wisdom, a lot of echoes can go unused for the entire game, but my point still stands in that you're still switching between multiple echoes.
I also kind of think that Echoes of Wisdom is Nintendo's way of "getting back into the swing of things" with a new top-down Zelda title considering it's the first new one since A Link Between Worlds and Tri Force Heroes some 9 to 10 years ago. As a result, things may come across as a little less thought out and not as streamlined as they could be.
Aonuma needs to play Death’s Door, Tunic, and Plucky Squire. Not to copy any of those games directly, but to get the team out of this box of how they think about top down Zelda. I think if they balance the old and new and also look outward to expand their sense of possibility, they can make some phenomenal top down games.
You’re awesome papa Arlo
I suspect the new 3D Zelda game will be about building your own ships and sailing the seas. Also under water exploration. Wind waker on steroids. Where else can they take that botw formula to feel fresh? They've already done sky, land and caves.
Part of it might be, this game is basically the same price as TotK and BotW, which are way bigger and generally more impressive, and they are the same franchise on the same system.
I’m not fond of an open world 2D Zelda game. The plastic look can be a bit much sometimes. I like the art direction though. I wanted to love this game more. I supported Zelda’s first game though so I did my part.
I blame the economy. Heaven's know I would have bought it immediately if I still had disposable income.
i feel this game is something like "is ok because is close enough to something i want even actually isn't what i want" the ecoes likes because they are similar to dungeon items but they are not, the dungeon likes because they are similar to the classic one but they are not. even the story, is similar but is more flat because the game for it nature can't have change of direction or plot twist. totk and this are the only zelda game that actualy bored me and i finish it just because they are zelda.
As someone who doesn't see any difference between "Top-down Zelda" and "3D Zelda", I'd like to find out your opinion on the matter. What is it about 2D Zelda that makes it feel so different from the 3D games? Especially when I know a couple of fan projects that have very faithfully recreated a couple of the 3D games (mostly Ocarina of Time) into 2D without it feeling strange, and vice versa (the 3D remakes of Zelda 1 as an example). I'd also like to point out that Mario 3D Land and Mario 3D World were both 3D Mario games, but built in the "2D style" of Mario. I'm not trying to argue "3D is better" here, though, so don't take it as such. I'm genuinely asking "what can be done in a 2D Zelda game that can only be done in a 2D Zelda game?"
As far as "2D Zeldas are surely cheaper to make" they probably aren't. If they were using 2D sprites, they might be, but all 2D Zeldas since the DS games have been 3D. It actually makes sense for Nintendo to focus on a single type of game (2D vs 3D) and get it out as opposed to 2 different styles of game. I think that an "ultimate Zelda game" would be a truly 3D Zelda game that incorporates the "only 2D can do this" elements. How can they, though? Well, I don't know, I don't know what 2D can do that 3D can't do.
If you asked me "what can 2D Mario do that 3D Mario can't?" Well... nothing at all. Originally, Nintendo really did believe there had to be a divide, which got us such games as Mario 64, Mario Sunshine, Mario Galaxy, etc. But 3D Land and 3D World both said "what if we take the 2D elements and just put them into 3D?" Mario is best when he's a running, jumping, goomba smooshing guy; when your goal is to get from A to B and jump over or on enemies. I feel like Mario is at his worst when you have a game about "It's a big 3D landscape that you can run around freely in, and somewhere in the world is a star, and you gotta find that star, and because it's 3D, we're gonna make the landscape huge and maze-like and difficult to navigate and..." But, you can make a 3D Mario that is the "running, jumping, goomba crushing dude" without it needing to be a side-scroller.
Ultimately, all of that boils down to a simple question: What is "top-down Zelda" and how does it differ from "3D Zelda"? What is it about "top-down Zelda" that makes it feel great, yet "3D Zelda" feels lacking? That's my genuine question, and I would absolutely love to hear an answer. Whenever I ask that question, no one seems to be able to think of a reason, though, which just leaves me rolling my eyes whenever someone gets excited about "top-down Zelda". So, I genuinely want to know your answer to that question. Maybe, finally, after 15 years, I could find someone who can actually tell me why "top-down Zelda" is so different. I genuinely can't see any difference between them myself, and I genuinely want to understand what the difference is.
Hopefully we get a remasters of the Capcom Topdown Zeldas Oracle of Seasons/Ages and Minish Cap.
Echoes of Wisdom is the second Zelda game I’ve ever beaten! (the first being BOTW) and I LOVED IT!
hopefully we won't have to wait 11 more years for the next one, either :')
(No, I do not count Triforce Heroes.)
The wait continues for a Phantom Hourglass remake that will never come.
I think that they should continue the open ended puzzles not because I like them (I do) but because of how much people gushed over the fact you could do anything in botw and now because of botw and other open worlds they think that every game need to be open ended and that any linearity is a sin. This comment was just an excuse to talk about how I feel like botw spoiled people because I feel like every time I watch peoples reactions to new game reveals at least one will say "open world Kirby/Pokemon/Mario game" I like botw but I also somewhat prefer linearity in games or like the ign review for Mario and Luigi they say it's too linear but a lot of rpgs are like that.
1:00 especially with Backwards compatibility confirmed
Speaking of people buying less games near the end of the switch, I think a big contributing factor is how much prices for things have risen so people are being very picky about the games they buy. I can see this being a big issue for the switch 2.
Yep. Tariffs are really going to hurt Nintendo's business model in future. And it won't just impact the Switch and their games, but their theme parks and upcoming movie projects as well.
Personally, I feel the "many solutions" idea works a lot better in TOTK than in EOW. EOW's more traditional dungeon and puzzle design bases around distinct solutions for distinct, designed puzzles. When you're playing, you get the feeling there is an "intended" solution, and you can either do that or do something else, which often feels like your circumventing the puzzle itself. This also comes up in TOTK's and BOTW's shrine design as well. The "many solutions" approach favors itself best towards emergent puzzles, or those that aren't necessarily put there explicitly by the developers, but rather you encounter as a sort of challenge. Often traversing terrain and enemy camps fall into this category, and this is where it's the most fun to devise a solution with a large arsenal of possibilities. Both TOTK and EOW have both of these kinds of situations, but TOTK's open air design favors emergent puzzles, while EOW's traditional 2D design focused around dungeons favors having a single solution, since it makes completing those designed puzzles more rewarding.
I enjoyed EOW a lot, but I think I would be disappointed if they kept this design philosophy going for 2D titles in the future.
I think anytime they can add 3d elements to top down Zelda’s it will always be interesting
Hooray More 2d Zelda one of my Favorite games in the series was a Link to the Past and the Minish Cap which I played last year and into this year is also a Good one so this has made me very happy.
I feel like a reason that switch games aren’t selling as well is that it’s pretty equal to the number of switches sold in a year. Like as time goes on the switch sell less so the people looking to get new games decrease. People out grow a system and more people are waiting for the new system to come out as well which adds to less software being sold
The preposition: "You can solve all puzzles in your own way. There are many solutions and you aren't bound to do it how the developer wanted you to do it!" Sounds great, but the flipside it, that you can solve almost all puzzles more or less the same way. Like in the Switch open world entries... Traversal puzzles have been a Zelda staple, but if everything can be overcome by just climbing it that's hardly a puzzle and it makes exploring the world no fun. If they ever make a game like that again I really hope climbing gear is an endgame update if included at all.
I still hope for a remake of "A Link to the Past" in the "Echoes of Wisdom"/"Link's Awakening Remake" engine...
I mean, between the two games they obviously already have (most of) the assets for it and the "Echoes" overworld is almost identical.
Doing a remake of one of the best (if not the best...) and fan favourite games in the franchise should be a no brainer.
Barely any cost, can be done with their already existing tools and would definitey sell well enough to make a profit.
These sales only took in consideration the last few days of the month it released. Something like 5 days. So EoW had an amazing start
The echoes I rarely use were put at the end anyway, at least by default, so I don't do what they wanted anyway, which is to stumble on something and try that instead. So their solution didn't work for their purpose anyway. To really achieve what they wanted they would have to put the most rarely used echoes at the top, which would be soooo annoying.
The switch lends itself really well to 2d Zelda games and really good HD remakes like link's awakening
I think a factor that's contributing to releases getting less sales later in a console generation is because there's more options to choose from
I know the new style is 3d now, but in my opinion, the visual style of Minish Cap is unmatched. If they think of remaking it, idk how ill feel about it, but it's still a welcome idea.
Sometimes I just really miss 2D and 2.5D games.
While my college semester is still going, I’ve had more time and energy to just put towards this game to continue it, I love this game sm, still good to hear that it got that many sales at least! And yeah I agree that the form of using echos via scrolling isn’t great feeling, regardless of the gameplay design intent
Been playing Link between worlds and minish cap where hardware is the least of my concerns however it would be a curiosity to see them updated to new hardware. Regardless of the semantics I'm doubtful that we'd be disappointed with what this incredible company brings to the table. I've never really been disappointed so far to be perfectly honest.
they should just try to create the "perfect' top-down Zelda game for switch 2, the hook can be a bigger world and better graphcis/controls than ever. There still isn't a flawless Zelda and I say that as someone who's favorite game series is Zelda by far. I totally agree with Arlo that there's no need to keep going for these huge swings every time, just give the people what they want.
Echoes was fine but I felt like I was half way through when it ended. I don’t like Nintendo’s attitude of “well it’s top down so it can be 15 hours long”. Huh?? Especially being by far the biggest ever top down hyrule, I was ready to really explore, maybe revisit areas like in OOT, but nope. These games were short on the game boy so I guess they have to be short now too.
This comment is interesting to me, because I actually thought the game felt a little bloated and could've been trimmed down a tad.
Too many generic sidequests that felt like they were only there for the sake of utilising the "modern Zelda" UI, and similarly I didn't like how every dungeon was locked behind a repetitive 2hr questline
I've really enjoyed the last three Zeldas, and I love how Echoes tried to find a balance between the linear sensibilities of the "classics" and the open world design of BotW.
But the very basic concepts of LoZ and ALttP still haven't been fully explored. They have SOME item progressive gating without railroading you into a single specific experience, and you spend your time almost exclusively exploring without having to trigger specific plot points by talking to the right NPCs in the right order. It's nice not having every single dungeon tied to the social problems of a specific community and having to learn all about the problem before you can just... GO!
Scrolling is still a better solution they should have just give multiple bars for it
If you had favorites no idh would use anything other than the Lynel and the water block
OOF yeah the 'decision' to do the linear menu backfired incredibly for me as well. Which I hesitate to believe they made that decision specifically for that reason since both Botw and Totk do the exact same thing? Feels more like they just stuck with it for consistency or to save time and justified it with that reason. But it's honestly one of the reasons I haven't finished the game, overall I just don't feel compelled to experiment in the way that I did in Botw/totk and the menu certainly isn't helping.
Speaking on Zelda being too open ended with puzzles, I love when puzzles don't require exactly one solution, I like being able to creatively work around a problem... but Zelda at the moment is at the point where most problems can be solved by whatever idea you can think of, which... defeats the purpose of problem solving. They need more structure, not completely rigid, but at least enough to provide a challenge.