Yes! FoundryVTT needs to SUPER streamline the hosting process. If they did that then added a charactermancer for each system, then NO other VTTs would stand a chance!
A game every week! That hasn't happened since I was 17 and we all went to the same school together and all still lived at home... ;) VTT might just make more sessions then a handful a year...
To be honest, if you're fair in the comparison and making it for "general public" and average DM, you must say that "you'll likely end up running Foundry on Forge anyway and pay a monthly subscription". It's just so complicated technically to host on your PC.
@@user-hy1jx1oe6x that’s a valid point but DMs come in many shapes and sizes so I don’t want to perscribe The Forge as the default option since some enjoy figuring out selfhosting
@@DiceAndEasy well, if you follow that logic you may then say that the 3rd party support is not an issue because Foundry has so much stuff for Pathfinder. But that would be a bit bias because you know that 95% of the folks watching your video will be looking for VTT to play D&D, not Pathfinder. Same thing imho applies for server setup. Even I have a CS degree and still gave up on hosting it on my machine. Honestly, If I'd be Foundry, I'd be advertising the web-hosted option as the default recommended option.
There isn't really anything Foundry can do to streamline the self hosting process because it all depends on what your network hardware and ISP are, all of which Foundry has no control over and there are millions of possible configurations depending on what you have. That being said I've been self hosting for about 2 years and had to switch ISP once so far due to moving but i hadn't had any issues and I have it setup with an SSL cert and my custom domain linked to dynamic DNS so my players only need 1 url without any extra port info. To be fair i have been professionally managing 500+ Linux servers for almost 10 years now so this is something I could do in my sleep at this point.
A little bit manipulative and bias review, but overall I agree with the "winner" you intended to choose😁Here's what I'd add based on my personal experience (1 year roll20, then switched to Foundry) 1) Regarding the cost. you'll likely end up paying more for Foundry than for roll20, because you'll most likely be forced to use ForgeVTT anyway and it's a higher cost subscription (also considering you'll need to use voiceKit server because the base voice chat in Foundry lags so hard. But for me, it's OK as well as I'm getting better value for my buck. Which is 100% true for Foundry. If you set it up right and get all of the 100 modules right then it's a much much better value (not kidding - you WILL have to install ~100 modules. Even for some super basic things like "dice tray". Foundry is basically Linux) 2) Regarding 3rd party support. In a way, you could say that Foundry has BETTER 3rd party support. For example, for the two TOP best rated adventures (CoS and WDH), you have Tych maps and PyramKing who are making their awesome "microwave ready" modules for these campaigns, but only for Foundry. And the basic Roll20 module for CoS and WDH just sucks in terms of maps which is the hardest thing to set up in VTT for your campaigns. So I don't quite agree with your point #3. I expected a full map package for WDH after buying it on roll20, but what you get there is just some shitty wireframe maps. Tych maps are so much better for WDH, but they're not allowed as a paid module for roll20 🤷 3) The last thing that I'd say you're missing is that Foundry is clearly treated by Wotc as "gray area" or even illegal for not banning addons like Plutonium. There is a reason Foundry has absolutely ZERO official modules from D&D. All of that would likely lead to Foundry not getting the One Dnd support, which is becoming better and better after each UA. Other than that, I'd say it's a good comparison and your other points are valid. Especially about performance. Roll20 is like an old, slow, greasy and rusty laptop running Windows Vista 😁. I wish you made this video a year ago, lol 😅
Thanks for the constructive feedback! I really appreciate it! I admit that I am definitely biased towards Foundry but my aim was not to manipulate. My responses to your points: 1) Fair point. It is true that many people will default to The Forge due to selfhosting being complicated. I think your comparison of Foundry to Linux is apt! 2) True, I should've said official 3rd party support and emphasized that I mean official content. I agree that official DnD campaigns should have higher quality VTT maps. 3) Plugins and sites like Plutonium are indeed in a legal gray area. I'm not sure that this is the reason that official DnD modules are missing because from what I heard from another VTT developer who was asking for DnD licensed content, WotC is currently not signing new licenses. This fact, paired together with their upcoming 3D VTT and the just released 2D VTT, suggests that WotC is trying to create a walled garden where you can only get official DnD VTT modules on their VTTs. I wouldn't be surprised if WotC doesn't renew licenses for Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Depending on what the OGL looks like for One DnD, other VTTs could still have support for the system but just no official modules available.
Self hosting: It depends on how creative you are, what kind of internet connection you have, etc. For example, I started actually setting up a Foundry VTT server last week. I run a low powered PC (Windows 10) with VM software installed on top of that, in my case I use VMware Workstation Pro, but you could easily use VirtualBox. On that VM I installed a Linux operating system (Linux Mint Mate), downloaded and installed Foundry VTT according to the instructions, created a simple script to easily start the Foundry VTT server. I indeed struggled a bit with how to securely serve it to my players, but after some googling someone pointed me to how to use Cloudflared for free to use as a tunnel for Foundry VTT. I also made a simple script to start that separately. Might need to make a guide eventually for that... Voice/video: I was also first struggling with how to setup decent voice/video in Foundry VTT, the basic stuff might not be great, but it's especially not great when one of the players is on the other side of the world. The peer-to-peer architecture of that is horrible! Installing a VoiceKit server looked like an option, but more complexity, especially with tunneling. But why? When there are a ton of free audio/video solutions available for free? We're currently using Discord for voice/video, sure it's not integrated into Foundry VTT, but why should it be I've seen very little advantage to that. It even fixes one issue I have with Foundry VTT, sound on iPad doesn't seem to be working (neither does Dice So Nice), with the Discord app and Kenku FM I can pipe through the sound from my Foundry VTT web client to Discord. This is of course kinda complex and the information is distributed all over the Internet. Module overload: The problem with module overload is that most people (including myself) want EVERYTHING! But imho that is extremely counter productive, especially when you get started. I started with 8, not a 100, 8. And that includes a library dependency that you can automatically install. Dice Tray to roll dice with the click of a button, Dice So Nice! because otherwise it won't feel like rolling dice at all (for me), and TouchVTT because some of our group are only using an iPad. Those three are 'essential' for our situation. The we have a couple of minor quality of life improvements: Drag Ruler, GM Screen, Tidy5e Sheet, zSync (why Foundry VTT doesn't do this out of the box I don't know!). Of course I have my eye on other modules, LOTS of other modules, but let's first get the initial ones used and then see what happens! ;) 3rd party support: I would include modules in that, and that's incredible on Foundry VTT. What we're talking about is 'official support' from the publishers themselves (through third parties, but officially licensed), and that is very lacking. Paizo is doing some work on that, but WotC support is very lacking! But I was going through some DMs Guild information and that might be an option for 'officially licensed' Foundry VTT support for some D&D stuff. Cost: Foundry is ~$60 (inc. EU VAT), Roll20 is 'free', but lacking features, and lacking functionality. Before you start using a VTT as a D&D player, chances are that you already have the PHP/DMG/MM. Chances are that you bought the books again digitally for DndBeyond and now would have to buy them again for Roll20, with $30/book for each digital version, that could easily become a LOT of money ($180) for a couple of digital products you already own physically and then we're not yet talking about any subscription... At least Foundry VTT has a module that allows you to import the stuff from DndBeyond, already saving you money. But I have no intention of buying DndBeyond books again (I already own physically), as I have a very low opinion of WotC digital longterm support and availability (been playing D&D for 35 years), so I can just add the missing stuff manually from my physical book... Elephant in the room: I'm not calling you fat! ;) But imho the absolute biggest issue with Foundry VTT is the extremely high learning curve! Not just for server setup, but drowning in a sea of modules, compatibility, and how Foundry VTT itself works. Setting up a campaign/adventure from scratch is a huge hurdle for the non-techies among us! I just accessed my Roll20 account from 2020 (never used) again, and they have an actual tutorial available, that's huge!
As for #1 I have been running a weekly campaign in Foundry going on 2.5 years and have done it all with self hosting. I also use discord for voice which is free. One time investment for 50 dollars and Foundry is clearly the winner on price for me. Again others peoples mileage may vary but purchasing Foundry was the best decision I could of made. For point number #3. Yes DnD support in foundry is lacking, not because of anything on foundry's part it is all on WotC who do not want another vtt competing with their own upcoming vtt's. I would say the roll 20's access to DnD is only temporary because once their licensing is up I bet the WotC pulls their support for it, forcing you to use their vtt. This is one of the reasons I switched to PF2e because their system is fully integrated in the Foundry system (with Paizo approval) and every single book is included you don't have to buy every single book if you want to use it in your campaign like you do for roll 20 or DnD Beyond.
I use Foundry Server instead of the Forge. I like it better and its a little cheaper. But I also have my own server that I setup using digitalocean that is super cheap.
What VTT would you recommend if I was mostly interested in bringing the board game "Zombicide" to life to play online with friends? I just recently starting looking into the likes of Foundry, Roll20, and Tabletop Simulator, but I am not sure which one will fit my needs best.
It's probably a question of prioritization i.e. the Foundry team has decided that the other features they are working on are more important than incorporating Dice So Nice into core. With only 4 developers, they need to pick their battles carefully.
While I am absolutely pro Foundry VTT, this comparison feels more like Roll20 bashing instead of an impartial comparison. Funnily enough Roll20 came up this morning after demoing Foundry VTT yesterday. The format of first listing all the pros of Foundry VTT (with all the negatives of Roll20) really skews the perspective for the rest of the video. I don't really disagree with your assessment, just with your presentation of it.
I think roll20 is easier to work with but fantasy grounds is overall the cheapest and the best but has a higher learning curve since there is so much depth.
Correct me if I'm wrong but for Fantasy Grounds Unity, all users need to buy the $35 license or the GM needs to buy the ultimate license which is $145.
@@DiceAndEasy yeah, FG is definitely pricier than Foundry, between the price of the VTT itself and all the payed modules and extensions (again, only the GM needs to buy them and share with the rest) you're looking at a pretty substantial investment compared to the other two. But from what I learned in this video (I have barely touched both VTTs you're compairing), FG offers the best of both worlds: - self-hosting with near 0 configuration issues - all the popular gaming systems with the ability to introduce your own - pretty much every mod you could ever think of - massive 3rd party libraries, including official 5e content, Kobold Press books, etc. You can buy modules either through their own market (will be updated and installed automatically) or from DriveThroughRPG (will have to download the files and put them into proper folders yourself and keep up with the updates) - has their own extensive DSL that is pretty easy to learn and allows you to implement pretty much any effect you want to for spells, conditions and magic items including auras, time limited effects, save-to-end effects, etc. - character creation and maintanence made easy - since you have access to all the rules and features in the modules all the race/class/background features work out of the box - and all the bells and whistles that you need for immersive play - dynamic lighting, walls/windows/doors/hidden doors/LOS/tokens/etc. The biggest downside for me there is Unity and its inherent limitations of OS compatibility. You have to
While I’ll agree that Foundry offers a lot that Roll20 either doesn’t offer or doesn’t do as well, I think you did Roll20 a disservice on the pricing argument. For GMs who do not require a lot of “bells and whistles” Roll20 is quite usable at the free level - and I know many GMs who have used it successfully for years to run their games and have never bothered to subscribe.
I wasent a fan of roll20 even though i dont need all the bells and whistles brcause of storage space. You run out incredibly fast. I only ran 1 campain and ran out in no time
Yes! FoundryVTT needs to SUPER streamline the hosting process. If they did that then added a charactermancer for each system, then NO other VTTs would stand a chance!
The best VTT is the one where your players show up every week.
Very true!
A game every week! That hasn't happened since I was 17 and we all went to the same school together and all still lived at home... ;) VTT might just make more sessions then a handful a year...
Foundry is better. Great video, thanks for the upload.
Thanks for the kind words!
Good thoughts. I do host on the forge so I do have a subscription, but I don’t HAVE to have a subscription-which is nice.
Yeah it's great that self hosting is an option!
To be honest, if you're fair in the comparison and making it for "general public" and average DM, you must say that "you'll likely end up running Foundry on Forge anyway and pay a monthly subscription". It's just so complicated technically to host on your PC.
@@user-hy1jx1oe6x that’s a valid point but DMs come in many shapes and sizes so I don’t want to perscribe The Forge as the default option since some enjoy figuring out selfhosting
@@DiceAndEasy well, if you follow that logic you may then say that the 3rd party support is not an issue because Foundry has so much stuff for Pathfinder. But that would be a bit bias because you know that 95% of the folks watching your video will be looking for VTT to play D&D, not Pathfinder.
Same thing imho applies for server setup. Even I have a CS degree and still gave up on hosting it on my machine.
Honestly, If I'd be Foundry, I'd be advertising the web-hosted option as the default recommended option.
@@user-hy1jx1oe6x fair point!
There isn't really anything Foundry can do to streamline the self hosting process because it all depends on what your network hardware and ISP are, all of which Foundry has no control over and there are millions of possible configurations depending on what you have. That being said I've been self hosting for about 2 years and had to switch ISP once so far due to moving but i hadn't had any issues and I have it setup with an SSL cert and my custom domain linked to dynamic DNS so my players only need 1 url without any extra port info. To be fair i have been professionally managing 500+ Linux servers for almost 10 years now so this is something I could do in my sleep at this point.
Not sure if there is absolutely nothing that can be done but you're right, it's a tricky situation.
A little bit manipulative and bias review, but overall I agree with the "winner" you intended to choose😁Here's what I'd add based on my personal experience (1 year roll20, then switched to Foundry)
1) Regarding the cost. you'll likely end up paying more for Foundry than for roll20, because you'll most likely be forced to use ForgeVTT anyway and it's a higher cost subscription (also considering you'll need to use voiceKit server because the base voice chat in Foundry lags so hard. But for me, it's OK as well as I'm getting better value for my buck. Which is 100% true for Foundry. If you set it up right and get all of the 100 modules right then it's a much much better value (not kidding - you WILL have to install ~100 modules. Even for some super basic things like "dice tray". Foundry is basically Linux)
2) Regarding 3rd party support. In a way, you could say that Foundry has BETTER 3rd party support. For example, for the two TOP best rated adventures (CoS and WDH), you have Tych maps and PyramKing who are making their awesome "microwave ready" modules for these campaigns, but only for Foundry. And the basic Roll20 module for CoS and WDH just sucks in terms of maps which is the hardest thing to set up in VTT for your campaigns. So I don't quite agree with your point #3. I expected a full map package for WDH after buying it on roll20, but what you get there is just some shitty wireframe maps. Tych maps are so much better for WDH, but they're not allowed as a paid module for roll20 🤷
3) The last thing that I'd say you're missing is that Foundry is clearly treated by Wotc as "gray area" or even illegal for not banning addons like Plutonium. There is a reason Foundry has absolutely ZERO official modules from D&D. All of that would likely lead to Foundry not getting the One Dnd support, which is becoming better and better after each UA.
Other than that, I'd say it's a good comparison and your other points are valid. Especially about performance. Roll20 is like an old, slow, greasy and rusty laptop running Windows Vista 😁. I wish you made this video a year ago, lol 😅
Thanks for the constructive feedback! I really appreciate it! I admit that I am definitely biased towards Foundry but my aim was not to manipulate. My responses to your points:
1) Fair point. It is true that many people will default to The Forge due to selfhosting being complicated. I think your comparison of Foundry to Linux is apt!
2) True, I should've said official 3rd party support and emphasized that I mean official content. I agree that official DnD campaigns should have higher quality VTT maps.
3) Plugins and sites like Plutonium are indeed in a legal gray area. I'm not sure that this is the reason that official DnD modules are missing because from what I heard from another VTT developer who was asking for DnD licensed content, WotC is currently not signing new licenses. This fact, paired together with their upcoming 3D VTT and the just released 2D VTT, suggests that WotC is trying to create a walled garden where you can only get official DnD VTT modules on their VTTs. I wouldn't be surprised if WotC doesn't renew licenses for Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds. Depending on what the OGL looks like for One DnD, other VTTs could still have support for the system but just no official modules available.
Self hosting: It depends on how creative you are, what kind of internet connection you have, etc. For example, I started actually setting up a Foundry VTT server last week. I run a low powered PC (Windows 10) with VM software installed on top of that, in my case I use VMware Workstation Pro, but you could easily use VirtualBox. On that VM I installed a Linux operating system (Linux Mint Mate), downloaded and installed Foundry VTT according to the instructions, created a simple script to easily start the Foundry VTT server. I indeed struggled a bit with how to securely serve it to my players, but after some googling someone pointed me to how to use Cloudflared for free to use as a tunnel for Foundry VTT. I also made a simple script to start that separately. Might need to make a guide eventually for that...
Voice/video: I was also first struggling with how to setup decent voice/video in Foundry VTT, the basic stuff might not be great, but it's especially not great when one of the players is on the other side of the world. The peer-to-peer architecture of that is horrible! Installing a VoiceKit server looked like an option, but more complexity, especially with tunneling. But why? When there are a ton of free audio/video solutions available for free? We're currently using Discord for voice/video, sure it's not integrated into Foundry VTT, but why should it be I've seen very little advantage to that. It even fixes one issue I have with Foundry VTT, sound on iPad doesn't seem to be working (neither does Dice So Nice), with the Discord app and Kenku FM I can pipe through the sound from my Foundry VTT web client to Discord.
This is of course kinda complex and the information is distributed all over the Internet.
Module overload: The problem with module overload is that most people (including myself) want EVERYTHING! But imho that is extremely counter productive, especially when you get started. I started with 8, not a 100, 8. And that includes a library dependency that you can automatically install. Dice Tray to roll dice with the click of a button, Dice So Nice! because otherwise it won't feel like rolling dice at all (for me), and TouchVTT because some of our group are only using an iPad. Those three are 'essential' for our situation. The we have a couple of minor quality of life improvements: Drag Ruler, GM Screen, Tidy5e Sheet, zSync (why Foundry VTT doesn't do this out of the box I don't know!). Of course I have my eye on other modules, LOTS of other modules, but let's first get the initial ones used and then see what happens! ;)
3rd party support: I would include modules in that, and that's incredible on Foundry VTT. What we're talking about is 'official support' from the publishers themselves (through third parties, but officially licensed), and that is very lacking. Paizo is doing some work on that, but WotC support is very lacking! But I was going through some DMs Guild information and that might be an option for 'officially licensed' Foundry VTT support for some D&D stuff.
Cost: Foundry is ~$60 (inc. EU VAT), Roll20 is 'free', but lacking features, and lacking functionality. Before you start using a VTT as a D&D player, chances are that you already have the PHP/DMG/MM. Chances are that you bought the books again digitally for DndBeyond and now would have to buy them again for Roll20, with $30/book for each digital version, that could easily become a LOT of money ($180) for a couple of digital products you already own physically and then we're not yet talking about any subscription... At least Foundry VTT has a module that allows you to import the stuff from DndBeyond, already saving you money. But I have no intention of buying DndBeyond books again (I already own physically), as I have a very low opinion of WotC digital longterm support and availability (been playing D&D for 35 years), so I can just add the missing stuff manually from my physical book...
Elephant in the room: I'm not calling you fat! ;) But imho the absolute biggest issue with Foundry VTT is the extremely high learning curve! Not just for server setup, but drowning in a sea of modules, compatibility, and how Foundry VTT itself works. Setting up a campaign/adventure from scratch is a huge hurdle for the non-techies among us! I just accessed my Roll20 account from 2020 (never used) again, and they have an actual tutorial available, that's huge!
As for #1 I have been running a weekly campaign in Foundry going on 2.5 years and have done it all with self hosting. I also use discord for voice which is free. One time investment for 50 dollars and Foundry is clearly the winner on price for me. Again others peoples mileage may vary but purchasing Foundry was the best decision I could of made.
For point number #3. Yes DnD support in foundry is lacking, not because of anything on foundry's part it is all on WotC who do not want another vtt competing with their own upcoming vtt's. I would say the roll 20's access to DnD is only temporary because once their licensing is up I bet the WotC pulls their support for it, forcing you to use their vtt. This is one of the reasons I switched to PF2e because their system is fully integrated in the Foundry system (with Paizo approval) and every single book is included you don't have to buy every single book if you want to use it in your campaign like you do for roll 20 or DnD Beyond.
I use Foundry Server instead of the Forge. I like it better and its a little cheaper. But I also have my own server that I setup using digitalocean that is super cheap.
"There is a reason Foundry has absolutely ZERO official modules from D&D." Lovely little time capsule from a few months ago, lmao.
Given all your videos, safe to the answer is foundry :)
What VTT would you recommend if I was mostly interested in bringing the board game "Zombicide" to life to play online with friends? I just recently starting looking into the likes of Foundry, Roll20, and Tabletop Simulator, but I am not sure which one will fit my needs best.
Hard to say since I’m not familiar with the game. Looks like Tabletop Simulator has an official version of the game purchasable
I find it interesting that they haven't incorporated Dice So Nice as core. Or a version.
It's probably a question of prioritization i.e. the Foundry team has decided that the other features they are working on are more important than incorporating Dice So Nice into core. With only 4 developers, they need to pick their battles carefully.
A Foundry Truther over here, thanks for the engaging content!!
You’re welcome!
While I am absolutely pro Foundry VTT, this comparison feels more like Roll20 bashing instead of an impartial comparison. Funnily enough Roll20 came up this morning after demoing Foundry VTT yesterday. The format of first listing all the pros of Foundry VTT (with all the negatives of Roll20) really skews the perspective for the rest of the video. I don't really disagree with your assessment, just with your presentation of it.
Roll 20 deserves the bashing to be honest. It has major issues and really wasn't interested in fixing them until Foundry came along.
I think roll20 is easier to work with but fantasy grounds is overall the cheapest and the best but has a higher learning curve since there is so much depth.
Correct me if I'm wrong but for Fantasy Grounds Unity, all users need to buy the $35 license or the GM needs to buy the ultimate license which is $145.
@@DiceAndEasy yeah, FG is definitely pricier than Foundry, between the price of the VTT itself and all the payed modules and extensions (again, only the GM needs to buy them and share with the rest) you're looking at a pretty substantial investment compared to the other two.
But from what I learned in this video (I have barely touched both VTTs you're compairing), FG offers the best of both worlds:
- self-hosting with near 0 configuration issues
- all the popular gaming systems with the ability to introduce your own
- pretty much every mod you could ever think of
- massive 3rd party libraries, including official 5e content, Kobold Press books, etc. You can buy modules either through their own market (will be updated and installed automatically) or from DriveThroughRPG (will have to download the files and put them into proper folders yourself and keep up with the updates)
- has their own extensive DSL that is pretty easy to learn and allows you to implement pretty much any effect you want to for spells, conditions and magic items including auras, time limited effects, save-to-end effects, etc.
- character creation and maintanence made easy - since you have access to all the rules and features in the modules all the race/class/background features work out of the box
- and all the bells and whistles that you need for immersive play - dynamic lighting, walls/windows/doors/hidden doors/LOS/tokens/etc.
The biggest downside for me there is Unity and its inherent limitations of OS compatibility. You have to
While I’ll agree that Foundry offers a lot that Roll20 either doesn’t offer or doesn’t do as well, I think you did Roll20 a disservice on the pricing argument. For GMs who do not require a lot of “bells and whistles” Roll20 is quite usable at the free level - and I know many GMs who have used it successfully for years to run their games and have never bothered to subscribe.
A very valid point! Some times simple is indeed the better option especially when it is free!
I wasent a fan of roll20 even though i dont need all the bells and whistles brcause of storage space. You run out incredibly fast. I only ran 1 campain and ran out in no time
Roll20 is not usable at any level with all of it's bugs and issues 💀