The Rite of Spring by Stravinski and almost everything by Haitus Kaiote 😅 This is definitely one of my favorite aspects of music to play as a violinist and electric bassist.
Self trained drummer here. 32 years experience. The only way I can explain this using words is that all time signatures can be infinitely divided in infinite combinations. As long as the measure resolves correctly according to the signature, you can do anything.
The other rhing I'll say is that I love Charles in this video because be stresses FEELING the beat first instead of trying to understand the notation first. I always believe in letting the music define what the beat needs to be. Once you stop thinking in terms if notation and using it only to describe, an entire universe of rhythm opens up.
Hi, I worked with II-L to compose/commission that first song for a rhythm game event. If anyone is into it, would strongly recommend looking at just about any of his other music which all features this same disorienting vibe, always in 4/4. They're pretty much all available on his youtube channel! Even more interestingly, II-L will often theme entire albums around the same baseline track, but modify it in increasingly crazy polyrhythmic ways. The stuff he makes is truly unique, really strongly recommend taking a look.
I hope it's the one that ended up in osu!Taiko because it's one of my absolute favourites because sure there are a few 7/8 (yoyuyuppe - 7/8) songs or even rubato songs (like Middleisland - Roze) but II-L is mind breaking in rhythm games because that fluidity together with it not *actually* being as confusing as it is it results in variable approach rates with different rhythmic speeds and I love it. It's the full package between polyrhythms and superimposing like what happens in Golden Brown by Stranglers where 4 repeats of 13 notes fits in a regular 4/4 again.
Really cool to see someone who has worked with II-L before. Been a big fan them since I heard sputnik-3. As a rhythm gamer especially their stuff is so incredibly satisfying. Not often that understanding a rhythm is a challenge in osu, but when it is it is so gratifying to overcome.
Animals as Leader's "Monomyth" has a 5+7+7+5+5+7 groove throughout which adds up to 36, and since 36 can be divided by both 3 and 4 you can hear many "regular" subdivisions played by the drums(specifically the cymbals).
If you’ve never seen them live… please do. I can’t describe it but it makes their recorded stuff sound like crap (which it isn’t). They’re so good live it’s not even funny.
This math teacher LOVES what you're doing here. It's a great example of how our minds can be challenged when rhythms deviate from culturally entrained patterns. Thank you!
Listening to bands like Leprous and Meshuggah definitely helps your mind lock in the feeling of these more odd, syncopated rhythms. The Brotherly one was a bit more difficult but the Tigran one I locked in very quickly. Which is interesting in and of itself imo
Leprous is fascinating. Honestly I think the best examples of this I can think of is when they do this to different time signatures as well. The Sky is Red is a WILD piece of music and I'm still fascinated by the way it approaches rhythm. The song is in 11/4 the entire time as far as I'm aware but it just feels so bizarre even for 11/4. It's like if aliens came to earth and tried to imitate our music without knowing how it actually worked... Yet still managed to make an absolute monster of a track.
Oh wow! Robin is awesome, I first heard him with Zero 7 and then with Jacob Collier. And this Brotherly song really got me, haven't heard of them before. I really have to check out more of his work! And Brotherly for sure!
@@ReviewsMaromba believe it or not charles cornell was the person who introduced me to meshuggah and prog metal as a whole. he already listens to them dont worry lol. go find the "the songs that made me love metal" or whatever theyre called
Oh I think he might have heard about Meshuggah quite a few times already. Nowadays the tricky part is rather to talk about odd rythmic stuff _without_ talking about Meshuggah or Tool ^^
Progressive metal dude here. One of my favorite things to do when writing a thick djenty riff is to play around with snare placement. Everything else continues playing the exact same rhythm but the only thing that changes is the snare. Great for building tension and when you bring in the backbeat, you just can’t help but headbang and open the mosh pit in your living room. Periphery does this perfectly and it’s my biggest inspiration.
What really helped me was to realize that musical notation is just that - a representation of the “true” thing. Often, there are multiple equivalent ways to notate the same piece of music. Sometimes there are conventions which restrict these, which also helps communication.
For the first song The Earth that you were talking about, the rabbit hole goes a lot deeper. Essentially your given those stabs at the start and naturally your going to feel that as 5 if you keep that 4 pulse going. Then those brief triplets you were talking about is using ratio tuplets or pulse morphing. Basically the groups of 4 become 3 and the 3s become 2. This only happens for a couple bars but the pattern is now implying 14 subbeats (so basically modulates to 7/4!) as the reference and thats heard before any quituplets are implied. With 2:3 ratio being 0.667% slower and 3:4 ratio being 0.75% slower they technically aren't the same rate of speed but at the quicker tempo these can be smoothened out by either playing them as polyrhtyhms which makes it metrically accurate or you can take the 2 or 3 pulse and make it a reference point for the rest of the bar which then makes the bar 0.9% larger or smaller. Also to transition between the 2 feels is smoothened out with a bar or 2 where the 3s are played over the 4s but the 3s are played as normal. To put it in other words, this analysis ensures no women ever talking to you :) Great video and please do more because they are really good quality!
As soon as I saw the title my brain immediately went to Pyramid Song by Radiohead. At first listen, you think it’s alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4, but it’s just 4/4 swung in a funny way and you can’t tell until the percussion comes in.
bro I was about to comment the same thing lmao. there is a pretty cool vid out there with the rhythmic map of the song at definitely makes it feel even more similar to a pyramid
if it helps one to imagine the timing, you can definitely use different time signatures to align with the syncopation. For example using alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4 until the percs start. Especially in 4/4 songs with complex syncopations splitting the song into imaginary parts and aligning time signatures for the proper feel of an instrument is super easy and helpful for people that count. I for one do not count, ever. And yes, I play drums.
I've been saying for a while that the future of pop music is in Japan. Unlike western pop musicians, they're not afraid of experimenting and being creative, and they pull it off while still managing to write catchy tunes.
Meshuggah has so many songs that are in 4/4 but don’t feel like they are. Combustion is one of the weirdest 4/4 intros I have ever heard and it will always boggle me on how they count it properly
Yeah, Meshuggah may not be super melodic, but their polyrythmic patterns misalining and realigning throughout a song's structure is nothing short of genius. Clockworks breaks my brain, and I know it's in 4/4.
There’s a version of combustion with a click track on you tube. If you listen at x0.75 speed, you can teach your brain to hear the downbeat in the correct place
Tigran Hamasyan’s “The Grid” is one of my favorite pieces ever, I love the 15-minute version with all its crazy metric modulations and the coolest breakdown ever
There is one song that completely broke my brain: Crime of the Century by Supertramp. The solo piano build up to the end is so misleading, and I love it for that. It makes you think the strong beats are so obviously placed, and then the rest of the band kicks in and suddenly you realize you had it wrong the whole time. I don’t know how else to describe it, but it absolutely tickles my brain when I heat that part. I’ve listened to it hundreds of times trying to force my brain to naturally count the time right, and I still have trouble!
@@kjdude8765He's definitely not. From what I gather, he's prioritized touring and his band for the last couple years over the music theory videos, but he still makes them occasionally
One of my favourite examples of a brain-bending 4/4 is Bonnie The Cat by Porcupine Tree. It's ostensibly a straight-feel 4/4 but the way Gavin Harrison phrases the drum pattern against what the bass is doing makes it sound very 'odd-timey'. It's great.
: Pyramid Song is the sort of music that shakes you out of certain dogmatic thinking. Common time doesn't need to be held down by the kick drum - in this case, it's Phil Selway keeping time with the ride cymbal. Great example, I'm glad you brought it up!
A song that totally fits this bill is TOOL’s The Pot. It starts out with a syncopated bass riff that’s hard to follow, lays a guitar riff over it that is easier but still syncopated, and the vocals are syncopated differently as well. But when the drums kick in you realize it’s in 4/4 and it suddenly becomes super easy to bop your head to. Very fun on a first listen
@@lukesteiner8934 well, technically there is one (repeated) section that switches to 3/4, it’s the build up before the bridge and the buildup before the scream at the end
what immediately comes to mind is a song called "Fall" by Chon. it sounds like insane things go on with the time signature, but one way I broke it down was 5/4 but every 5th 16th note is emphasized in one measure, and then every downbeat is emphasized in the next measure.
As a progrock fan, I love odd time signatures, but I didn't realize how weird rhythms can be in plain, old 4/4! Such interesting music. And yeah, a time signature like 6/4 can really fool you because it *seems* like 4/4 when it's not. I unintentionally wrote a verse in 6/4 just because it felt right, but I assumed I was still in 4/4 when I wrote and played it. But that wasn't so much a difficult rhythm as it was simply giving the chords the proper length to play out.
My beloved THE EARTH by II-L, what an incredible artist! You should absolutely check out the work of Toromaru! Formless Canvas, Erinyes, Deorbit, all incredible pieces of music!
All of a sudden red became blue and my mind melted a bit around the edges. When you explained it then I heard it as clear as a bright sunny day. And now I can't unhear it.
Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park once released an instrumental for charity called "Issho Ni" that starts off with a melody with no percussion, and the melody has so many pauses in it that on first listen it's hard to figure out what the rhythm is, and then when percussion starts coming in it becomes clear that the beat is straightforward even though the melody sounded so odd.
No Signal by Chon is a great example of this. The main riff can be heard as 3 bars of 9/16 followed by one bar of 5/16 or just entirely in 4/4. They also cited Tigray Hamasyan as a big influence so
We NEED a full breakdown of the Grid by Tigran, that stuff just hits different, the metric mods there, polyrhythms, harmony...they're just out of this world
It's not complete if you only include The Grid alone w/out its follow-up track "Out of the Grid", basically the "second movement" of the same piece of song. He went into some unironic heavy Meshuggah shit on that part, also even more of that syncopated and interlocking polyrhythmic madness. The live in Yerevan 2014 version of both songs' performance is the best one. Also, his other songs such as Ara Resurrected, Nairian Oddysey and his rendition of the jazz standard "Softly As in the Morning Sunrise" are far crazier than The Grid on virtually every aspect, except maybe in terms of accessibility and memorability.
@@GuyWhoLikesTheSnarkies1435 yeah, that's why I didn't exactly specified which one :D "Out of the Grid" is hands down my favorite and the live versions just blow my mind
Imo The Grid is actually surprisingly "simple" rhythmically. It starts with a 5+5+7+5+5+5/32 which I feel like a quintuplet swing 6/4 where one of the beats is extended a bit. It then switches to an 8/4 where the exact same 557555 patter is a syncopated over a 4/4 feel (as explained in the video). It then switches back and forth between those versions a few times. So you "only" need to know two grooves, which are "just" the same pattern viewed from two perspectives. As a the main beat and snycopated over 4/4.
@@antarctic214 oh I know, I just want to see his reaction and breakdown of how he feels that, especially the Out of the Grid part where 5+5+5+5+5 is layered with 4+4+5(2+3)+4+4+4
@@tigran2210 Is that the part 1:43 to 2:09 of the version of spotify? Back when I tried to play it on the drums (not following hnatek, just figuring out what works by ear) it was the only section I never quite figured out. But what you wrote works I think.
What is the first song in this video? Unless i missed it i dont think it's listed anywhere? Would be nice to have the songs mentioned in the description:)
Never thought I would see THE EARTH from II-L! I love the rhythm and the lyric plays into the beats as well. THE EARTH begins with a golden satellite investigating a planet like their own, with aliens who count their numbers in their uneven hands. The music they hear is nearly incomprehensible, noting how the aliens dance to the complex rhythm effortlessly as if they know it by their hearts. But the satellite, despite it being uncomfortable, finds the aliens way of counting fascinating. There's a wonderful hint at a twist toward the end where the lyric specifically say the aliens count in 5x2=10, which means the "alien" they were talking about is actually humans, the satellite's subject, now more obvious in hindsight, the Earth. Now, humans, at least in cultures I grew up in, find these rhythms as fascinating and confusing as them, which I think is the fun part. There's an irony of the "aliens" supposedly getting the rhythm even though a lot of us clearly don't. The song suggest at first to be a frustration towards how human society chose 5 x 2 = 10 to count. But as the lyric continues, it's clear that they find beauty in the counting, taking something that sounds complicated, and using it everyday as if it's very straightforward. I don't know if I explain that too well, but I wanted to say that the lyric plays into the whole confusing rhythm thing and I find that really cool! II-L's stuff is mind-bending throughout, I can't recommend it enough!!
For a person who loves messing with time signatures, it disappoints me that no part of his name can be anagramed into “Time” or “Signature”. It would’ve been perfect.
These videos make me feel like i sent my best friend a song and he explains to me, with the same excitement, why i like it specifically and then get excited with me. I just didnt have the words to explain that i hear it, i get it, I under it.
7:40 That statement really resonates with me. I write a lot of music with extra beats or pauses, odd rhythms, or odd time signatures and it just happens naturally as part of the flow. Redefining the rhythm feel as part of seeking a melody or chord progression can let unique ideas come out. It can be hard to communicate these ideas though with musicians who focus too much on theory and counting every beat instead of feeling the pocket and intention in a song.
With the sort of "automatic" quantization in a lot of music making that involves a digital interface it becomes a lot "easier" to play around with rhythms like this. You can lay down a clear 4/4 groove, and layer tracks over it, manipulating them in various ways. Using these digital interfaces makes approaching the music from the instrument AND from the perspective of how it functions in the end much easier. For example: I noticed when I first started using a notation software (finale and sibelius) to write music instead of pen and paper, having the ability to copy and paste, transpose, layer, stretch or shorten, at the click of a button (sometimes by accident) lead to ways of thinking about the music that didn't come as easily just sitting at a piano with pen and paper. An example of a similar effect in music history was Steve Reich's comping up with "phasing". He discovered this, and the resulting intricate rhythms, by playing around with tape recording and noticing them going out of phase with each other. Also, if you're making music directly on paper/computer in an abstract sense, and not "hearing" it, you can write the meter as 4/4, but have it notated in a way that no matter who plays it, it will never sound like "4/4". For example, write all your measures in 4/4 but write every measure with tuplets of 5 or 7 in the space of 4 with accents alternating every 3 and 6 notes. it's in "4/4" but no one will ever hear it that way...although it will effect how a good performer plays it and possibly create certain effects you wouldn't get otherwise (see any of Morton Feldman's later compositions as an example). sorry for the effort post
One of my favorite “sounds odd but isn’t” is two bars of 12/8 time done in 7 + 7 + 7 + 3 groups. It feels like the weirdest odd time signature shift but keeps that even time total, and makes for a stark contrast going between that feel and a standard 12/8 swung feel.
Medtner's elegie op. 45 has the singer singing in 4/4, whilst the piano accompaniment is mostly 10/8 with lots of funky 5 against 3 against 2 polyrithms
Holy shit. I can't even comprehend how people can perform this stuff. At first the piano is playing half notes in the left hand so you could kind of ignore the right hand and just sing along with the left, but it's not too long before everything in the piano is in 10. I imagine there's some creative stretching and compressing of time happening independently between the singer and pianist and as long as things generally line up every bar it's all good. It has the effect of a general harmony in the background without things needing to be actually lined up to a grid like they would if they were playing true polyrhythms the whole way. At least to my ear and reading along with the score that's how it seems to be. There's a lot of tempo changes in the score too, so a perfectly grid-like performance has to be impossible.
A common technique in rudimental drumming is to use “the grid”. We take the thing we are working on, be it an accent, flam, or diddle, and then move it onto every part of a given subdivision. Example would be if we are working on our diddles we would play a measure of 16ths, next measure diddle all of the down beats, next measure all of the “e”s, and so on.
I'll be back to finish this, but I have to go check out that first tune you used as an example. Edit- I'm back. Thank you for showing me II-L, you've changed my life.
I learnt piano as a child and hat to learn about all the different time signatures. Then in my teens I learned dancing where I learned doing 8-count and everything just ends up as 4/4 no matter what. On rare occasions 3/4.
The whole intro to the song Sun Spat by EMEFE also has a really nebulous beat structure until the drums kick in. It's fun to quiz people on where beat 1 is if they've never heard the song before.
I had this with the Eurovision song for Russia a few years ago. It was a song by Sergey Lazarev, “You’re the only one” if I’m not mistaken is what it was called. With the intro and the verse it sounded like a classic 6/8 song, but then the prechorus came in and all of a sudden it had this four on the floor in the background, and it just threw me for a loop especially the first time and because of the fact that it’s a regular pop song. It’s not weird now anymore but I still would’ve preferred it if the song was in 6/8.
Here are some songs with rhythmical illusions that I found interesting: 1. Knockin’ Em Down by Phat Phunktion: the intro into verse really throws your brain for a loop. 2. Top Secret by Yellowjackets: also the intro you kinda get a feel, but when the drums begin the groove, it’s also confusing the first time listening. 3. Du du - Kristian Kristensen: this one opens up with a pattern of 5’s and 7’s (5/16+5/16+5/16+7/16+5/16+5/16 which equals 2 measures of 4/4 haha) so you can either feel the subdivisions of 16ths or the slow 4/4 beat 4. Molasses - Hiatus Kaiyote: I think it’s only me perhaps, but in my head the part of «Bet-ter, bet-ter» from 3 mins 33 secs my feel is always one 16th note off (only in studio ver., not live ver.), so every 2nd kick drum gets to be a downbeat in my head even though I know from the live ver. that they intended the 1st 16th note of the kickdrum pattern to be downbeat. But I guess that’s just how my brain works🤷🏽♂️
This takes me back to high school Big Band (Jazz Orchestra). Our group loved highly syncopated pieces across the wind and percussive sections with wacky time signatures because the interpretations were truly endless. Every run was different and it challenged us to get into the composer’s head to try and understand the message and create it over and over again. It’s like a musical puzzle and that’s awesome.
Theres a song by Igorrr that i got reminded of while watching, and thats a track called Houmous. The main rhythmic idea can be counted as 7, 11, 7, 7. Whats interesting is the phrase is 32 beats, so you could theoretically break it down into 4 bars of 8 and try to count it that way, giving it a alternating straight-syncopated feel. Whats really cool is later in the track it switches to a straight 6, which in a 4 bar phrase adds up to 24. I dont know why but it makes the transition feel like a 'rhythmic resolution' because the previous 32 beat phrase was so uneven in its split. Its very satisfying to hear.
This video got on my feed; i'm a self taught bassist and have been playing bass since 2008 and just recently got into real music theory and this quote about "The Grid" composer saying that you can hear it anyway you want really goes to show how music and rythm are built into our brains; also Victor Wooten adressed this on his tedxtalk saying music it's is own language.
Not a multi-layered groove, but I'm reminded of Gentle Giant's 'So Sincere'. The first verse gives you just the violin and voice (IIRC) and it all sounds just rhythmically unhinged, really. Enter the drums on the second verse with a very simple 4-4 rhythm and it locks down in a very surprising and satisfying way.
Man, I am obsessed with this kind of music, so cool to see it broken down like this! One artist I'd love to see you react to sometime is Anna Meredith, she's the absolute master of overlapping polyrhythms & mid-song downbeat changes
One of the best examples of this is Black Dog by Led Zeppelin. I’ve seen like 10 ways of transcribing that song and some people feel it as 5 over 4 but I just hear really funky 4/4.
For Tigran's "The Grid", I've felt it for years with the bass drum groupings you mentioned but as alternating measures of 3/4 + 7/8 (groups of 2 with 1 group of 3). My brain feels a grouping and wants it to be the smallest number of subdivisions for the groups. But with the 5 groups of 5 and 1 group of 7 that fits into 4/4 makes perfect sense in my hands. It's also like 2 groups of chopped and misplaced 5:4. "The Earth" still breaks my brain. I can't reconcile the 7 grouping that gets established at the beginning with the hihat, and the 4/4 backbeat later on. I also have to fight to not feel a quarter note triplet in the 2nd half of the measure even though it's displaced one quintuplet beat.
What would be the difference between that and 4/4 at a slower tempo? Do you mean 3/4? I could be wrong but I don’t think irrational time signatures really have a purpose outside of brief moments within another time signature.
@@drewsify552 4/3 as in the polyrhythm. The meter is 4/4 still, but the 3 is felt as the quarter note so its 4 over 3 instead of 3 over 4 in terms of rhythm
@@drewsify552 🙂he probably means 3/4, but well.. that song is in 4/4 and has a 3/4 cross-rhythm in the main riff which is repeated until the 8th bar, where it is stopped and restarted after the normal 8 bar form. So the main riff is 8 bars of 4/4 and the ongoing rhythm is a pattern with the length of 3/4 which is repeated 10 times (with a slight variation on the 5th time, which doesn't change the length it just misses one note) and after those 10x 3/4 there are 2/4 missing to complete those 8 bars of 4/4. These missing 2/4 are played similar to the variation before but then cut short to restart the entire phrase from the start for the next 8 bars of 4/4. 🤗✌
@@nebselpam yes, the meter is still 4/4, like you said, but that's that 🙂 so those 4/4-quarter notes, which the drums play on the cymbals still remain the quarter notes pulses, the 3/4 riff-length is on top, but doesn't change the main pulse. 4/3 is an irrational time signature which doesn't really apply here. 4/4 all the way 😊 drums simply remains 1, 2, 3, 4 on the cymbal and the half-time backbeat on the 3 throughout
@@markusmeiser youre just not understanding and thats ok. the time signature has nothing to do with the polyrhythm. You can do 4 over 3 or 3 over 2 or whatever hemiola you want regardless of time signature.
That way to aproach polyrithms and odd signatures with vocal phrases and common speech remind me how Marco Minemann explain it, and once became musical to you is a joy!
With music notation software it has become ridiculously easy to experiment with polyrhythms. Drop in a bunch of sixteenth-note rests to space out notes in awkward ways, hit play, listen to the effect. In the old days you would need to play everything yourself and hope that you were playing what you intended. EDIT for the benefit of the pedantic people who are telling me that syncopated rhythms are not polyrhythms: Yes, thanks, I am well aware. My point is that coming up with a satisfying polyrhythm is less challenging with the use of music notation software. With which you can, FOR EXAMPLE, space out a theme by dropping in notes or rests, which will have the effect of lengthening it such that it no longer matches up with whatever else you have going on. You can then easily arrange it such that the various elements elements periodically meet up. BEFORE YOU SAY IT, yes, I am ALSO AWARE that polyrhythms do not necessarily need to meet up. BUT IN MY OPINION it can be satisfying when they do. And my technique using music notation software makes this process easy because you can listen as you go. I really did not think it necessary to go into this much detail when offering my initial observation, but some people can apparently just not resist trying to teach me music theory. To them I would point out that my technique does not NECESSARILY even create syncopation (because you have no idea where the beats fell in the original phrase, do you?)
@@JohnSmith-oe5kxthat's not what polyrhythm is though. Polyrhythm is playing an evenly spaced set of notes within the same period as another set of evenly spaced notes with a different number of notes. You've just described syncopation, not polyrhythm. You could maybe get a polyrhythm that's spread across several bars, but then you're either doing an odd number of measures, or you're limited to very simple ratios.
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 Ironic that you are "explaining" to me what a polyrhythm is when you clearly have no idea. There is no requirement whatsoever for a polyrhythm to have "evenly spaced sets of notes"
My drumming teacher once gave me the music sheet (for drumkit) of 'Cissy strut' by The Meters. If you played the notes in the length they were written in - you would never hit the groove correctly. Once I released myself from what's written and started to feel - that's when I was able to play the groove right. And it was awesome!
I love this stuff! I’m a trained opera singer who has worked as a non-singing opera musician for the past 25 years, and I’m constantly analyzing and picking apart the structure and rhythm of interesting pop songs I hear. I remember hearing Ne-Yo’s "Let Me Love You" years ago and trying to figure out the time signature; the vocal part is all dotted eighth notes and tied sixteenth and eighth notes across bar lines, so finding the 4/4 structure underneath took me a few minutes. Maybe not as difficult as Britten writing polymetric and polyrhythmic music, but still very rhythmically interesting.
Isorhythmssss. That's what my old composition teacher at uni called this: isorhythm. Also, for interesting subdivision stuff, check into how J. Dilla got his swing sound by subdividing on 5's.
While the entire song isn't complicated like these are, I'm reminded of the first time I heard Anima by Alex Smoke. It starts off with all these seemingly random percussive sounds that are in an 8-measure pattern, so the sounds don't repeat enough for you to get a sense of the beat. Then the kick drum comes in with 4 on the floor and it all clicks. Such a cool moment and I never get tired of the look on people's face when I introduce them to the song.
God, the grid is such a friggin BANGER. Absolute jam. I wish spotify was smart enough to show me all of these similar songs and artists but I guess I just have to find them through the comment sections on your videos lmfao
I never count. I just feel. The last 9:18 was not a "what?!" for me. It is a lovely example of a nice feeling 4/4. It is simple. I cannot write nor read it in notes, but I just have a wide smile on my face, eyes closed and "feeling" it as a "regular 4/4".
The Earth ft. Amelie xoxo is just a 5/4 time signature! Interpret the first two notes as quarter notes and everything else falls into line in a 5/4 measure.
Funny that there is a more straightforward explanation here that he (dis-?)missed, just like with his PotC-video. Charles seems to currently be focusing more on strange rhythms than strange harmonies. I suppose with that we get a glimpse of his theoretical "weaknesses" (that's an exaggeration folks, keep it friendly)
0:20 What trips me out most about this song is: even though they found a way to make it sound like 4/4, really, what I'm getting is 10/8... Especially towards the back half of the song.
Musical instincts are so cool because the beats you were doing for system were not what I was thinking at all. I managed to stay in a 4/4 (I think) groove that whole time by taking it slow
A lot of IDM songs has strange rhythm. But for me the strangest song was a track I found in stick music: kevin graham - together. You also can find it on UA-cam, but I’m not sure that i can give link here
As a drummer, if you listen to the song at 4:02, if you follow the 3d count on the snare drum, and then an 8th note before, maybe youll hear that u can just keep counting in 4 The polyrythms and late intervals create the illusion that the measure is changing, but it is not.
The last track on Miles Davis’ Sketches of Spain, “Solea” is a great example of this. I tried to count it every which a way until realizing its in 4. Which filled me with awe. It may very well be my favorite (secular) song in the world.
I dunno, I just find that a lot of this type of music tends to come off as pretentious. It's very fascinating from an academic perspective, don't get me wrong, but it simultaneously just feels like complexity for complexity's sake, if that makes sense.
I understand that a bit more for the first and third examples, because they are a bit more complex and difficult to listen to, however for the second piece, it's more like *woah* as it transitions between the subdivisions, but those subdivisions still feel natural and you can still listen and 'groove' to the piece as long as you don't think about it too much.
I remember first time hearing Animals as Leaders in 2009 i was stunned. Couldn't guess where the first beat is so i felt lost and i loved it. Thanks to Metal, now I'm so familiar with irregular rhythms patterns.
Joe Jackson's "Will Power" (from the album of the same name) starts by layering disconnected rhythms on top of each other, one at a time, until suddenly 4/4 time condenses out the ether. Once you've listened to it enough you can count it from the start, but until you get your brain wrapped around it, it's more than a bit confounding. As for polyrhythms, I would suggest going all the way back to the 50s and Dave Brubeck. Just give a listen to "Kathy's Waltz" from _Time Out_. It's in 4. No, it's in 3. No, 4. And by the time he leads you through it, you can hear and feel 4/4 and 3/4 all at the same time.
As a percussionist the first song is just 6/8 into 4/4 over and over. Then each measure has its own rhythms going on. You could also call it 10/8 which I would subdivide as 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 (2 dotted quarter notes into 4 quarter note pulse) so it’s a cool feel. Kind of like 7/8 with an extra dotted quarter note pulse.
My last band was a technical death metal band. The main song writer wrote all the music in odd time signatures. 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 and then just to mess with you, he'd add one MORE 8th note on the repeat. So the ONE time you play an 8/8, it actually messes you up because you finally liked into that odd groove only to trip on that 8th note. Then it goes back to being odd again. It was nuts. Sometimes the drummer would actually play a 4/4 groove underneath the odd beats creating a NEW feel.
I don't know if I agree about 4/4 but people who can't enjoy music unless they can figure out the time signature... seriously learn to turn off your mind and accept flow.
@@j.f.fisher5318We study the music and enjoy it at the same time. We don’t start explaining it to some stranger randomly. Sometimes we do just turn off the “student” part of our brain and vibe.
@@j.f.fisher5318we sure can, if we didn't like it in the first place we wouldn't take the time to study it. The reason artists study other artists' work is to learn from them, understand what we have liked while listening for the first time, so we have the tools to replicate and take inspiration from the same concept
Been a rave dancer more than half of my life. 4/4... I'll NEVER not recognise it no matter how much it's hidden behind delayed or the opposite, ahead, beats! I just start moving my body in 4/4 and if it fits, it fits!! What I DO find difficulty in recognising though is 2/2 vs 4/4 because to me they're about identical! Btw, yeah, in some compositions it REALLY doesn't matter where the "one" is!
Coming from a classical singing background, composers have been messing with where the feel of One is for ages. Brahms in particular comes to mind. I suspect humans have been doing this forever. I think it can have hypnotic and trance properties in the right context and it definitely helps change your perspective.
I love when I spontaneously write something and work it out on an instrument, the whole time thinking I'm playing in 5/4 or 7/8 or something weird like that but its just that it has this bump and swing and is really in 4/4.
I watched Simon Phillips play live in a small club many years ago with a drummer friend of mine. That was the first time I discovered that no matter how hard I tried, I could still get lost counting to 4.
Initially I thought that trying to have someone make sense of the timing, without a musical anchor or reference point, would induce a sort of sonographic illusion within your viewers brains, making them fall off their chair. Cheers
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
I LOVE music that does this, what are your favorite examples of bizarre and clever rhythmic illusions in music???
Toto - Dave's Gone Skiing (main riff)
The song Andy by Frank Zappa
Charles Cornell, can you please analyze Bowling for Soup's theme song for Jimmy Neutron?
The beginning of Lasso by Phoenix broke my brain at first 😂
The Rite of Spring by Stravinski and almost everything by Haitus Kaiote 😅 This is definitely one of my favorite aspects of music to play as a violinist and electric bassist.
Self trained drummer here. 32 years experience. The only way I can explain this using words is that all time signatures can be infinitely divided in infinite combinations. As long as the measure resolves correctly according to the signature, you can do anything.
Well put.
The other rhing I'll say is that I love Charles in this video because be stresses FEELING the beat first instead of trying to understand the notation first. I always believe in letting the music define what the beat needs to be. Once you stop thinking in terms if notation and using it only to describe, an entire universe of rhythm opens up.
Maths
Those 32 years surely shows your mastery, great post and I fully agree.
@@zerksari you're too kind, thank you
Hi, I worked with II-L to compose/commission that first song for a rhythm game event. If anyone is into it, would strongly recommend looking at just about any of his other music which all features this same disorienting vibe, always in 4/4. They're pretty much all available on his youtube channel! Even more interestingly, II-L will often theme entire albums around the same baseline track, but modify it in increasingly crazy polyrhythmic ways. The stuff he makes is truly unique, really strongly recommend taking a look.
I hope it's the one that ended up in osu!Taiko because it's one of my absolute favourites because sure there are a few 7/8 (yoyuyuppe - 7/8) songs or even rubato songs (like Middleisland - Roze) but II-L is mind breaking in rhythm games because that fluidity together with it not *actually* being as confusing as it is it results in variable approach rates with different rhythmic speeds and I love it. It's the full package between polyrhythms and superimposing like what happens in Golden Brown by Stranglers where 4 repeats of 13 notes fits in a regular 4/4 again.
Really cool to see someone who has worked with II-L before. Been a big fan them since I heard sputnik-3. As a rhythm gamer especially their stuff is so incredibly satisfying. Not often that understanding a rhythm is a challenge in osu, but when it is it is so gratifying to overcome.
Omgomgomgomgomg thank you for this plug!!! I was hoping to find a link to it in the description
Nobody is into it.
@@andybaldmanspeak for yourself andyman
brain dissolves until the beat resolves
Nice
🔥🔥🔥
this is so correct
Love this!
Add a beat to this line🔥
Animals as Leader's "Monomyth" has a 5+7+7+5+5+7 groove throughout which adds up to 36, and since 36 can be divided by both 3 and 4 you can hear many "regular" subdivisions played by the drums(specifically the cymbals).
If you’ve never seen them live… please do. I can’t describe it but it makes their recorded stuff sound like crap (which it isn’t). They’re so good live it’s not even funny.
Tosin is a game changer. Invented an entire genre.
Animals as Leaders love to play with time in unconventional but understandable ways
Someone should layer the simplest 4/4 drum beat on it. 😁
Matt gartska is a treasure lol
Everything is 4/4 if you're brave enough
Everything is 3/4 if youre drunk enough
Amen brother. This is the way.
Sometimes I dream that every form of music imaginable is actually 1/4
everything is in 4/4 if you believe hard enough!
I tolerate up to 9/8 if it is not any of them then it is 4/4 by default.
This math teacher LOVES what you're doing here. It's a great example of how our minds can be challenged when rhythms deviate from culturally entrained patterns. Thank you!
Leprous are masters of using 4/4 in a very syncopated way, making it sound like an odd-time signature
Yes! I was gonna bring up At the Bottom as a great example of that, and of their current sound as well.
Listening to bands like Leprous and Meshuggah definitely helps your mind lock in the feeling of these more odd, syncopated rhythms.
The Brotherly one was a bit more difficult but the Tigran one I locked in very quickly. Which is interesting in and of itself imo
Leprous is fascinating. Honestly I think the best examples of this I can think of is when they do this to different time signatures as well. The Sky is Red is a WILD piece of music and I'm still fascinated by the way it approaches rhythm. The song is in 11/4 the entire time as far as I'm aware but it just feels so bizarre even for 11/4. It's like if aliens came to earth and tried to imitate our music without knowing how it actually worked... Yet still managed to make an absolute monster of a track.
Leprous are so good at so many things but most of all at making music that hypes me up af 💜
They're also the masters of going "AaaaAAAAHHHHHHH" to great effect
Fun fact: System - Brotherly was actually written by Jacob Collier’s bass player, Robin Mullarky. The album is insanely funky!
Oh wow! Robin is awesome, I first heard him with Zero 7 and then with Jacob Collier. And this Brotherly song really got me, haven't heard of them before. I really have to check out more of his work! And Brotherly for sure!
actually this song sounds like shit
It's a brilliant complex yet catchy song by a criminally underrated band
@VeitLehmann Zero 7 is fantastic! I've never seen a fellow Zero 7 fan in the wild, so this is exciting, lol.
@@rperov318what do you not like?
You've covered Djent before, but Meshuggah built their whole career around this sort of thing, and inspired others to do the same. It's wonderful.
I was gonna suggest him to listen to meshuggah and dream theater
Yessss-I was like, “this sounds just like 4/4” but then remembered my favorite band is Meshuggah, so I have a bit of practice lmao
@@ReviewsMaromba
Dream Theater uses a lot of odd signatures, though. A lot of Meshuggah is in 4/4.
@@ReviewsMaromba believe it or not charles cornell was the person who introduced me to meshuggah and prog metal as a whole. he already listens to them dont worry lol. go find the "the songs that made me love metal" or whatever theyre called
Oh I think he might have heard about Meshuggah quite a few times already. Nowadays the tricky part is rather to talk about odd rythmic stuff _without_ talking about Meshuggah or Tool ^^
Progressive metal dude here. One of my favorite things to do when writing a thick djenty riff is to play around with snare placement. Everything else continues playing the exact same rhythm but the only thing that changes is the snare. Great for building tension and when you bring in the backbeat, you just can’t help but headbang and open the mosh pit in your living room. Periphery does this perfectly and it’s my biggest inspiration.
What really helped me was to realize that musical notation is just that - a representation of the “true” thing. Often, there are multiple equivalent ways to notate the same piece of music. Sometimes there are conventions which restrict these, which also helps communication.
i got so excited when i saw The Grid in the thumbnail, and immediately lost my mind when i got jumpscared by II-L
sup
@ sup
“We can come up with a way to think of this thing, that is so easy to hear “ - plays the most incomprehensible piece of music I’ve ever heard
For the first song The Earth that you were talking about, the rabbit hole goes a lot deeper.
Essentially your given those stabs at the start and naturally your going to feel that as 5 if you keep that 4 pulse going. Then those brief triplets you were talking about is using ratio tuplets or pulse morphing. Basically the groups of 4 become 3 and the 3s become 2. This only happens for a couple bars but the pattern is now implying 14 subbeats (so basically modulates to 7/4!) as the reference and thats heard before any quituplets are implied. With 2:3 ratio being 0.667% slower and 3:4 ratio being 0.75% slower they technically aren't the same rate of speed but at the quicker tempo these can be smoothened out by either playing them as polyrhtyhms which makes it metrically accurate or you can take the 2 or 3 pulse and make it a reference point for the rest of the bar which then makes the bar 0.9% larger or smaller. Also to transition between the 2 feels is smoothened out with a bar or 2 where the 3s are played over the 4s but the 3s are played as normal. To put it in other words, this analysis ensures no women ever talking to you :) Great video and please do more because they are really good quality!
As soon as I saw the title my brain immediately went to Pyramid Song by Radiohead. At first listen, you think it’s alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4, but it’s just 4/4 swung in a funny way and you can’t tell until the percussion comes in.
This was my exact thought haha, how do you make a video with this title and not include pyramid song
bro I was about to comment the same thing lmao. there is a pretty cool vid out there with the rhythmic map of the song at definitely makes it feel even more similar to a pyramid
if it helps one to imagine the timing, you can definitely use different time signatures to align with the syncopation. For example using alternating bars of 3/4 and 4/4 until the percs start. Especially in 4/4 songs with complex syncopations splitting the song into imaginary parts and aligning time signatures for the proper feel of an instrument is super easy and helpful for people that count. I for one do not count, ever. And yes, I play drums.
4 measures of 3 (triangles) and 1 measure of 4 (square)
It’s a pyramid!
(||: 3-3-4-3-3 :||)
I've been saying for a while that the future of pop music is in Japan. Unlike western pop musicians, they're not afraid of experimenting and being creative, and they pull it off while still managing to write catchy tunes.
Meshuggah has so many songs that are in 4/4 but don’t feel like they are. Combustion is one of the weirdest 4/4 intros I have ever heard and it will always boggle me on how they count it properly
Maybe this will help?
ua-cam.com/video/ZD17n3x6UTk/v-deo.html
This guy is amazing at breaking down Meshuggah beats.
Combustion hell yeah
I knew I didn't have to go too far down in the comments to find Meshuggah mentioned here. If you didn't, I was gonna!
Yeah, Meshuggah may not be super melodic, but their polyrythmic patterns misalining and realigning throughout a song's structure is nothing short of genius. Clockworks breaks my brain, and I know it's in 4/4.
There’s a version of combustion with a click track on you tube. If you listen at x0.75 speed, you can teach your brain to hear the downbeat in the correct place
Tigran Hamasyan’s “The Grid” is one of my favorite pieces ever, I love the 15-minute version with all its crazy metric modulations and the coolest breakdown ever
Holy shit, i never thought i would see Charles react to II-L
Same. I jumped up when I heard The Earth
Is that loss?
@@goolgepl2112name of the artist dummy
@@goolgepl2112 No, that's just the artist name (pronounced "two L" by the way) but I can see why you said that.
One of the best composers ever frfr VOSTOK-3 my beloved ❤
There is one song that completely broke my brain:
Crime of the Century by Supertramp.
The solo piano build up to the end is so misleading, and I love it for that. It makes you think the strong beats are so obviously placed, and then the rest of the band kicks in and suddenly you realize you had it wrong the whole time. I don’t know how else to describe it, but it absolutely tickles my brain when I heat that part. I’ve listened to it hundreds of times trying to force my brain to naturally count the time right, and I still have trouble!
Call Adam Neely, we've got nested tuplets!
Too bad he's essentially retired from YT
Pass the G*d da?m butter. (How he counts 4 against 3)
Came to post the same thing.
Nah, call Phonon
@@kjdude8765He's definitely not. From what I gather, he's prioritized touring and his band for the last couple years over the music theory videos, but he still makes them occasionally
One of my favourite examples of a brain-bending 4/4 is Bonnie The Cat by Porcupine Tree. It's ostensibly a straight-feel 4/4 but the way Gavin Harrison phrases the drum pattern against what the bass is doing makes it sound very 'odd-timey'. It's great.
I remember hearing Pyramid Song by Radiohead for the first time as a teenager and being so confused and fascinated at the same time
: Pyramid Song is the sort of music that shakes you out of certain dogmatic thinking. Common time doesn't need to be held down by the kick drum - in this case, it's Phil Selway keeping time with the ride cymbal. Great example, I'm glad you brought it up!
Me too!
the fact that there’s a reasonable and understandable way to view that song in 4/4 too is WILD. love that song so much
Really surprised that song wasn't mentioned
Plus once you figure out the timing it all makes perfect sense... Especially once the drums come in.
A song that totally fits this bill is TOOL’s The Pot. It starts out with a syncopated bass riff that’s hard to follow, lays a guitar riff over it that is easier but still syncopated, and the vocals are syncopated differently as well. But when the drums kick in you realize it’s in 4/4 and it suddenly becomes super easy to bop your head to. Very fun on a first listen
the best example
Pretty sure it’s in 5/4 but with easy to follow quarter note pulses
@@l.t.j.6302 The Pot is definitely in 4
@l.t.j.6302 no it's 4/4 the whole way thru, once the drums come in it solidifies the pulse
@@lukesteiner8934 well, technically there is one (repeated) section that switches to 3/4, it’s the build up before the bridge and the buildup before the scream at the end
what immediately comes to mind is a song called "Fall" by Chon. it sounds like insane things go on with the time signature, but one way I broke it down was 5/4 but every 5th 16th note is emphasized in one measure, and then every downbeat is emphasized in the next measure.
Surprised I had to scroll for so long to find a CHON mention! No Signal by them also does this well & the 4/4 reveal is so gratifying
Chon is sick! Glad someone mentioned them here haha
As a progrock fan, I love odd time signatures, but I didn't realize how weird rhythms can be in plain, old 4/4! Such interesting music.
And yeah, a time signature like 6/4 can really fool you because it *seems* like 4/4 when it's not. I unintentionally wrote a verse in 6/4 just because it felt right, but I assumed I was still in 4/4 when I wrote and played it. But that wasn't so much a difficult rhythm as it was simply giving the chords the proper length to play out.
My beloved THE EARTH by II-L, what an incredible artist! You should absolutely check out the work of Toromaru! Formless Canvas, Erinyes, Deorbit, all incredible pieces of music!
oh hey caou :3
All of a sudden red became blue and my mind melted a bit around the edges. When you explained it then I heard it as clear as a bright sunny day. And now I can't unhear it.
Mike Shinoda of Linkin Park once released an instrumental for charity called "Issho Ni" that starts off with a melody with no percussion, and the melody has so many pauses in it that on first listen it's hard to figure out what the rhythm is, and then when percussion starts coming in it becomes clear that the beat is straightforward even though the melody sounded so odd.
No Signal by Chon is a great example of this. The main riff can be heard as 3 bars of 9/16 followed by one bar of 5/16 or just entirely in 4/4. They also cited Tigray Hamasyan as a big influence so
We NEED a full breakdown of the Grid by Tigran, that stuff just hits different, the metric mods there, polyrhythms, harmony...they're just out of this world
It's not complete if you only include The Grid alone w/out its follow-up track "Out of the Grid", basically the "second movement" of the same piece of song. He went into some unironic heavy Meshuggah shit on that part, also even more of that syncopated and interlocking polyrhythmic madness. The live in Yerevan 2014 version of both songs' performance is the best one.
Also, his other songs such as Ara Resurrected, Nairian Oddysey and his rendition of the jazz standard "Softly As in the Morning Sunrise" are far crazier than The Grid on virtually every aspect, except maybe in terms of accessibility and memorability.
@@GuyWhoLikesTheSnarkies1435 yeah, that's why I didn't exactly specified which one :D
"Out of the Grid" is hands down my favorite and the live versions just blow my mind
Imo The Grid is actually surprisingly "simple" rhythmically. It starts with a 5+5+7+5+5+5/32 which I feel like a quintuplet swing 6/4 where one of the beats is extended a bit. It then switches to an 8/4 where the exact same 557555 patter is a syncopated over a 4/4 feel (as explained in the video). It then switches back and forth between those versions a few times.
So you "only" need to know two grooves, which are "just" the same pattern viewed from two perspectives. As a the main beat and snycopated over 4/4.
@@antarctic214 oh I know, I just want to see his reaction and breakdown of how he feels that, especially the Out of the Grid part where 5+5+5+5+5 is layered with 4+4+5(2+3)+4+4+4
@@tigran2210 Is that the part 1:43 to 2:09 of the version of spotify? Back when I tried to play it on the drums (not following hnatek, just figuring out what works by ear) it was the only section I never quite figured out. But what you wrote works I think.
What is the first song in this video? Unless i missed it i dont think it's listed anywhere? Would be nice to have the songs mentioned in the description:)
The Earth ft. Amelie xoxo by II-L, or 0:24 for the timestamp
@@kesy2806 thank you!!
All music is in 4/4 if you don't count it like a nerd
😂
😂😂
Yea unless its in a different time signature
Best comment lol
or 3/4 :))
Never thought I would see THE EARTH from II-L! I love the rhythm and the lyric plays into the beats as well.
THE EARTH begins with a golden satellite investigating a planet like their own, with aliens who count their numbers in their uneven hands.
The music they hear is nearly incomprehensible, noting how the aliens dance to the complex rhythm effortlessly as if they know it by their hearts. But the satellite, despite it being uncomfortable, finds the aliens way of counting fascinating. There's a wonderful hint at a twist toward the end where the lyric specifically say the aliens count in 5x2=10, which means the "alien" they were talking about is actually humans, the satellite's subject, now more obvious in hindsight, the Earth.
Now, humans, at least in cultures I grew up in, find these rhythms as fascinating and confusing as them, which I think is the fun part. There's an irony of the "aliens" supposedly getting the rhythm even though a lot of us clearly don't. The song suggest at first to be a frustration towards how human society chose 5 x 2 = 10 to count. But as the lyric continues, it's clear that they find beauty in the counting, taking something that sounds complicated, and using it everyday as if it's very straightforward.
I don't know if I explain that too well, but I wanted to say that the lyric plays into the whole confusing rhythm thing and I find that really cool!
II-L's stuff is mind-bending throughout, I can't recommend it enough!!
ahh yes, Tigran Hamasayan yet again in the thumbnail for a video about time signatures.
I mean you have to
For some reason Entertain Me is marked as for kids.
For a person who loves messing with time signatures, it disappoints me that no part of his name can be anagramed into “Time” or “Signature”. It would’ve been perfect.
These videos make me feel like i sent my best friend a song and he explains to me, with the same excitement, why i like it specifically and then get excited with me. I just didnt have the words to explain that i hear it, i get it, I under it.
Polyrhythmic grooves are the new Jazz baby!!!
7:40 That statement really resonates with me. I write a lot of music with extra beats or pauses, odd rhythms, or odd time signatures and it just happens naturally as part of the flow. Redefining the rhythm feel as part of seeking a melody or chord progression can let unique ideas come out. It can be hard to communicate these ideas though with musicians who focus too much on theory and counting every beat instead of feeling the pocket and intention in a song.
With the sort of "automatic" quantization in a lot of music making that involves a digital interface it becomes a lot "easier" to play around with rhythms like this. You can lay down a clear 4/4 groove, and layer tracks over it, manipulating them in various ways. Using these digital interfaces makes approaching the music from the instrument AND from the perspective of how it functions in the end much easier. For example: I noticed when I first started using a notation software (finale and sibelius) to write music instead of pen and paper, having the ability to copy and paste, transpose, layer, stretch or shorten, at the click of a button (sometimes by accident) lead to ways of thinking about the music that didn't come as easily just sitting at a piano with pen and paper. An example of a similar effect in music history was Steve Reich's comping up with "phasing". He discovered this, and the resulting intricate rhythms, by playing around with tape recording and noticing them going out of phase with each other. Also, if you're making music directly on paper/computer in an abstract sense, and not "hearing" it, you can write the meter as 4/4, but have it notated in a way that no matter who plays it, it will never sound like "4/4". For example, write all your measures in 4/4 but write every measure with tuplets of 5 or 7 in the space of 4 with accents alternating every 3 and 6 notes. it's in "4/4" but no one will ever hear it that way...although it will effect how a good performer plays it and possibly create certain effects you wouldn't get otherwise (see any of Morton Feldman's later compositions as an example).
sorry for the effort post
That Brotherly band sounded awesome
I instantly added them to my rotation. Reminds me of Hiatus Kaiyote.
One of my favorite “sounds odd but isn’t” is two bars of 12/8 time done in 7 + 7 + 7 + 3 groups. It feels like the weirdest odd time signature shift but keeps that even time total, and makes for a stark contrast going between that feel and a standard 12/8 swung feel.
Medtner's elegie op. 45 has the singer singing in 4/4, whilst the piano accompaniment is mostly 10/8 with lots of funky 5 against 3 against 2 polyrithms
Holy shit. I can't even comprehend how people can perform this stuff. At first the piano is playing half notes in the left hand so you could kind of ignore the right hand and just sing along with the left, but it's not too long before everything in the piano is in 10. I imagine there's some creative stretching and compressing of time happening independently between the singer and pianist and as long as things generally line up every bar it's all good. It has the effect of a general harmony in the background without things needing to be actually lined up to a grid like they would if they were playing true polyrhythms the whole way. At least to my ear and reading along with the score that's how it seems to be. There's a lot of tempo changes in the score too, so a perfectly grid-like performance has to be impossible.
A common technique in rudimental drumming is to use “the grid”. We take the thing we are working on, be it an accent, flam, or diddle, and then move it onto every part of a given subdivision. Example would be if we are working on our diddles we would play a measure of 16ths, next measure diddle all of the down beats, next measure all of the “e”s, and so on.
II-L has some of the most insane rhythmically challenging songs in rhythm games
I'll be back to finish this, but I have to go check out that first tune you used as an example.
Edit- I'm back. Thank you for showing me II-L, you've changed my life.
I always love hearing Polyrhythms/Polymeters in regular music, and I think these songs encapsulate that vibe. ❤
It is very nice when you know a bit about music but it doesn't sell ... that is why prog rock failed, it is too advanced for the masses.
I learnt piano as a child and hat to learn about all the different time signatures.
Then in my teens I learned dancing where I learned doing 8-count and everything just ends up as 4/4 no matter what. On rare occasions 3/4.
The whole intro to the song Sun Spat by EMEFE also has a really nebulous beat structure until the drums kick in. It's fun to quiz people on where beat 1 is if they've never heard the song before.
Daaaamn this got me daaaancinn
I had this with the Eurovision song for Russia a few years ago. It was a song by Sergey Lazarev, “You’re the only one” if I’m not mistaken is what it was called. With the intro and the verse it sounded like a classic 6/8 song, but then the prechorus came in and all of a sudden it had this four on the floor in the background, and it just threw me for a loop especially the first time and because of the fact that it’s a regular pop song. It’s not weird now anymore but I still would’ve preferred it if the song was in 6/8.
Here are some songs with rhythmical illusions that I found interesting:
1. Knockin’ Em Down by Phat Phunktion: the intro into verse really throws your brain for a loop.
2. Top Secret by Yellowjackets: also the intro you kinda get a feel, but when the drums begin the groove, it’s also confusing the first time listening.
3. Du du - Kristian Kristensen: this one opens up with a pattern of 5’s and 7’s (5/16+5/16+5/16+7/16+5/16+5/16 which equals 2 measures of 4/4 haha) so you can either feel the subdivisions of 16ths or the slow 4/4 beat
4. Molasses - Hiatus Kaiyote: I think it’s only me perhaps, but in my head the part of «Bet-ter, bet-ter» from 3 mins 33 secs my feel is always one 16th note off (only in studio ver., not live ver.), so every 2nd kick drum gets to be a downbeat in my head even though I know from the live ver. that they intended the 1st 16th note of the kickdrum pattern to be downbeat. But I guess that’s just how my brain works🤷🏽♂️
ok.. i think i'm in love.
This takes me back to high school Big Band (Jazz Orchestra). Our group loved highly syncopated pieces across the wind and percussive sections with wacky time signatures because the interpretations were truly endless. Every run was different and it challenged us to get into the composer’s head to try and understand the message and create it over and over again. It’s like a musical puzzle and that’s awesome.
Theres a song by Igorrr that i got reminded of while watching, and thats a track called Houmous.
The main rhythmic idea can be counted as 7, 11, 7, 7. Whats interesting is the phrase is 32 beats, so you could theoretically break it down into 4 bars of 8 and try to count it that way, giving it a alternating straight-syncopated feel.
Whats really cool is later in the track it switches to a straight 6, which in a 4 bar phrase adds up to 24. I dont know why but it makes the transition feel like a 'rhythmic resolution' because the previous 32 beat phrase was so uneven in its split. Its very satisfying to hear.
I didn't expect to ever read this name in some youtube commentary section
@@rotkehlchen2920 you mean Igorrr or my name? 😂
@@sVieira151 Igorrr xD
IGGGOOOOOORRR!!!
This video got on my feed; i'm a self taught bassist and have been playing bass since 2008 and just recently got into real music theory and this quote about "The Grid" composer saying that you can hear it anyway you want really goes to show how music and rythm are built into our brains; also Victor Wooten adressed this on his tedxtalk saying music it's is own language.
Not a multi-layered groove, but I'm reminded of Gentle Giant's 'So Sincere'. The first verse gives you just the violin and voice (IIRC) and it all sounds just rhythmically unhinged, really. Enter the drums on the second verse with a very simple 4-4 rhythm and it locks down in a very surprising and satisfying way.
Yoooo I love that song. You have fine taste.
That snare hit 0:52 is WILD
Man, I am obsessed with this kind of music, so cool to see it broken down like this! One artist I'd love to see you react to sometime is Anna Meredith, she's the absolute master of overlapping polyrhythms & mid-song downbeat changes
yogev gabay you should check him out. He’s seriously so good. He actually played with Tigray before!
One of the best examples of this is Black Dog by Led Zeppelin. I’ve seen like 10 ways of transcribing that song and some people feel it as 5 over 4 but I just hear really funky 4/4.
I love guessing time signatures while driving, it's a fun game to pass the time!
For Tigran's "The Grid", I've felt it for years with the bass drum groupings you mentioned but as alternating measures of 3/4 + 7/8 (groups of 2 with 1 group of 3). My brain feels a grouping and wants it to be the smallest number of subdivisions for the groups. But with the 5 groups of 5 and 1 group of 7 that fits into 4/4 makes perfect sense in my hands. It's also like 2 groups of chopped and misplaced 5:4.
"The Earth" still breaks my brain. I can't reconcile the 7 grouping that gets established at the beginning with the hihat, and the 4/4 backbeat later on. I also have to fight to not feel a quarter note triplet in the 2nd half of the measure even though it's displaced one quintuplet beat.
You should absolutely listen to "VOLA - Straight Lines". Really cool 4/3 groove throughout the whole thing.
What would be the difference between that and 4/4 at a slower tempo? Do you mean 3/4? I could be wrong but I don’t think irrational time signatures really have a purpose outside of brief moments within another time signature.
@@drewsify552 4/3 as in the polyrhythm. The meter is 4/4 still, but the 3 is felt as the quarter note so its 4 over 3 instead of 3 over 4 in terms of rhythm
@@drewsify552 🙂he probably means 3/4, but well.. that song is in 4/4 and has a 3/4 cross-rhythm in the main riff which is repeated until the 8th bar, where it is stopped and restarted after the normal 8 bar form.
So the main riff is 8 bars of 4/4 and the ongoing rhythm is a pattern with the length of 3/4 which is repeated 10 times (with a slight variation on the 5th time, which doesn't change the length it just misses one note) and after those 10x 3/4 there are 2/4 missing to complete those 8 bars of 4/4.
These missing 2/4 are played similar to the variation before but then cut short to restart the entire phrase from the start for the next 8 bars of 4/4. 🤗✌
@@nebselpam yes, the meter is still 4/4, like you said, but that's that 🙂 so those 4/4-quarter notes, which the drums play on the cymbals still remain the quarter notes pulses, the 3/4 riff-length is on top, but doesn't change the main pulse.
4/3 is an irrational time signature which doesn't really apply here.
4/4 all the way 😊 drums simply remains 1, 2, 3, 4 on the cymbal and the half-time backbeat on the 3 throughout
@@markusmeiser youre just not understanding and thats ok. the time signature has nothing to do with the polyrhythm. You can do 4 over 3 or 3 over 2 or whatever hemiola you want regardless of time signature.
Meshuggah's "Do Not Look Down" or the bridge in "Electric Red". Also, II-L is great, thanks for the share!
You have to love when music becomes math
That way to aproach polyrithms and odd signatures with vocal phrases and common speech remind me how Marco Minemann explain it, and once became musical to you is a joy!
With music notation software it has become ridiculously easy to experiment with polyrhythms. Drop in a bunch of sixteenth-note rests to space out notes in awkward ways, hit play, listen to the effect. In the old days you would need to play everything yourself and hope that you were playing what you intended.
EDIT for the benefit of the pedantic people who are telling me that syncopated rhythms are not polyrhythms: Yes, thanks, I am well aware. My point is that coming up with a satisfying polyrhythm is less challenging with the use of music notation software. With which you can, FOR EXAMPLE, space out a theme by dropping in notes or rests, which will have the effect of lengthening it such that it no longer matches up with whatever else you have going on. You can then easily arrange it such that the various elements elements periodically meet up. BEFORE YOU SAY IT, yes, I am ALSO AWARE that polyrhythms do not necessarily need to meet up. BUT IN MY OPINION it can be satisfying when they do. And my technique using music notation software makes this process easy because you can listen as you go. I really did not think it necessary to go into this much detail when offering my initial observation, but some people can apparently just not resist trying to teach me music theory. To them I would point out that my technique does not NECESSARILY even create syncopation (because you have no idea where the beats fell in the original phrase, do you?)
That's not a polyrhythm, it's beat displacement/syncopation.
@@vorpalblades You can easily create polyrhythms that way, smart ass
@@JohnSmith-oe5kxthat's not what polyrhythm is though.
Polyrhythm is playing an evenly spaced set of notes within the same period as another set of evenly spaced notes with a different number of notes.
You've just described syncopation, not polyrhythm. You could maybe get a polyrhythm that's spread across several bars, but then you're either doing an odd number of measures, or you're limited to very simple ratios.
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 YOU CAN CREATE POLYRHYTHMS THAT WAY. JESUS
@@casanovafunkenstein5090 Ironic that you are "explaining" to me what a polyrhythm is when you clearly have no idea. There is no requirement whatsoever for a polyrhythm to have "evenly spaced sets of notes"
My drumming teacher once gave me the music sheet (for drumkit) of 'Cissy strut' by The Meters.
If you played the notes in the length they were written in - you would never hit the groove correctly. Once I released myself from what's written and started to feel - that's when I was able to play the groove right.
And it was awesome!
The amount of times I here things in 8/8 or 10/8 is higher than it should be. Hooked on compound meters works for me.
I love this stuff! I’m a trained opera singer who has worked as a non-singing opera musician for the past 25 years, and I’m constantly analyzing and picking apart the structure and rhythm of interesting pop songs I hear. I remember hearing Ne-Yo’s "Let Me Love You" years ago and trying to figure out the time signature; the vocal part is all dotted eighth notes and tied sixteenth and eighth notes across bar lines, so finding the 4/4 structure underneath took me a few minutes. Maybe not as difficult as Britten writing polymetric and polyrhythmic music, but still very rhythmically interesting.
Isorhythmssss. That's what my old composition teacher at uni called this: isorhythm. Also, for interesting subdivision stuff, check into how J. Dilla got his swing sound by subdividing on 5's.
great video on UA-cam about Dilla - ua-cam.com/video/0dsjuPZsNwQ/v-deo.htmlsi=4qchEdK47mALEkJ8
What always threw me off is the drum intro to Dream Theater's "6:00". Sounds weird, but is perfectly straight.
I would love a whole series on odd time signatures and polyrhythms - but I'm really terrible at maths 😬
yogev gabay is your man. He’s so good. He actually covered the brotherly song.
While the entire song isn't complicated like these are, I'm reminded of the first time I heard Anima by Alex Smoke. It starts off with all these seemingly random percussive sounds that are in an 8-measure pattern, so the sounds don't repeat enough for you to get a sense of the beat. Then the kick drum comes in with 4 on the floor and it all clicks. Such a cool moment and I never get tired of the look on people's face when I introduce them to the song.
God, the grid is such a friggin BANGER. Absolute jam. I wish spotify was smart enough to show me all of these similar songs and artists but I guess I just have to find them through the comment sections on your videos lmfao
I never count. I just feel. The last 9:18 was not a "what?!" for me. It is a lovely example of a nice feeling 4/4. It is simple. I cannot write nor read it in notes, but I just have a wide smile on my face, eyes closed and "feeling" it as a "regular 4/4".
The Earth ft. Amelie xoxo is just a 5/4 time signature! Interpret the first two notes as quarter notes and everything else falls into line in a 5/4 measure.
Funny that there is a more straightforward explanation here that he (dis-?)missed, just like with his PotC-video. Charles seems to currently be focusing more on strange rhythms than strange harmonies. I suppose with that we get a glimpse of his theoretical "weaknesses" (that's an exaggeration folks, keep it friendly)
0:20 What trips me out most about this song is: even though they found a way to make it sound like 4/4, really, what I'm getting is 10/8... Especially towards the back half of the song.
I've nothing against challenging time sigs, but if it's that difficult to listen to I'm not interested, music for me is for enjoying.
sometimes it’s not about following the rhythm properly, but letting the disorienting nature become part of the listening experience
Musical instincts are so cool because the beats you were doing for system were not what I was thinking at all. I managed to stay in a 4/4 (I think) groove that whole time by taking it slow
I'm getting one of those things! Like a headache with pictures!
2 mild examples - (a) The Bad Plus (featuring Joshua Redman) on As this moment slips away and (b) Sara Tavares on D'Alma (from the album Xinti)
hades ost tonite 👀
hades ost tonight queen??
hades ost tonite 👀
A lot of IDM songs has strange rhythm. But for me the strangest song was a track I found in stick music: kevin graham - together. You also can find it on UA-cam, but I’m not sure that i can give link here
Anybody know a Spotify playlist for this kind of brainmelting rythms in music?
As a drummer, if you listen to the song at 4:02, if you follow the 3d count on the snare drum, and then an 8th note before, maybe youll hear that u can just keep counting in 4
The polyrythms and late intervals create the illusion that the measure is changing, but it is not.
interesting rhythms. thanks charles!
they don't sound like 4/4, even if they are!
The last track on Miles Davis’ Sketches of Spain, “Solea” is a great example of this. I tried to count it every which a way until realizing its in 4. Which filled me with awe. It may very well be my favorite (secular) song in the world.
I dunno, I just find that a lot of this type of music tends to come off as pretentious. It's very fascinating from an academic perspective, don't get me wrong, but it simultaneously just feels like complexity for complexity's sake, if that makes sense.
Totally understand where you’re coming from and partially agree.
Nah it's just cool
I understand that a bit more for the first and third examples, because they are a bit more complex and difficult to listen to, however for the second piece, it's more like *woah* as it transitions between the subdivisions, but those subdivisions still feel natural and you can still listen and 'groove' to the piece as long as you don't think about it too much.
I remember first time hearing Animals as Leaders in 2009 i was stunned. Couldn't guess where the first beat is so i felt lost and i loved it. Thanks to Metal, now I'm so familiar with irregular rhythms patterns.
My man needs to listen to some Dream Theater and love the rhythms there!
That's what a lot of his examples immediately reminded me of!
Joe Jackson's "Will Power" (from the album of the same name) starts by layering disconnected rhythms on top of each other, one at a time, until suddenly 4/4 time condenses out the ether. Once you've listened to it enough you can count it from the start, but until you get your brain wrapped around it, it's more than a bit confounding.
As for polyrhythms, I would suggest going all the way back to the 50s and Dave Brubeck. Just give a listen to "Kathy's Waltz" from _Time Out_. It's in 4. No, it's in 3. No, 4. And by the time he leads you through it, you can hear and feel 4/4 and 3/4 all at the same time.
Try Nightwish, they're switching their rhythms and keys through a lot of their songs to change the pace😊
As a percussionist the first song is just 6/8 into 4/4 over and over. Then each measure has its own rhythms going on. You could also call it 10/8 which I would subdivide as 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 (2 dotted quarter notes into 4 quarter note pulse) so it’s a cool feel. Kind of like 7/8 with an extra dotted quarter note pulse.
My last band was a technical death metal band. The main song writer wrote all the music in odd time signatures. 3/8, 5/8, 7/8 and then just to mess with you, he'd add one MORE 8th note on the repeat. So the ONE time you play an 8/8, it actually messes you up because you finally liked into that odd groove only to trip on that 8th note. Then it goes back to being odd again. It was nuts. Sometimes the drummer would actually play a 4/4 groove underneath the odd beats creating a NEW feel.
All music is in 4/4 if you stop trying to count it like a nerd
I don't know if I agree about 4/4 but people who can't enjoy music unless they can figure out the time signature... seriously learn to turn off your mind and accept flow.
Really not the case
As a classical singer I agree
@@j.f.fisher5318We study the music and enjoy it at the same time. We don’t start explaining it to some stranger randomly. Sometimes we do just turn off the “student” part of our brain and vibe.
@@j.f.fisher5318we sure can, if we didn't like it in the first place we wouldn't take the time to study it. The reason artists study other artists' work is to learn from them, understand what we have liked while listening for the first time, so we have the tools to replicate and take inspiration from the same concept
whoa thanks for introducing me to that first song i love it
Been a rave dancer more than half of my life. 4/4... I'll NEVER not recognise it no matter how much it's hidden behind delayed or the opposite, ahead, beats! I just start moving my body in 4/4 and if it fits, it fits!!
What I DO find difficulty in recognising though is 2/2 vs 4/4 because to me they're about identical!
Btw, yeah, in some compositions it REALLY doesn't matter where the "one" is!
Coming from a classical singing background, composers have been messing with where the feel of One is for ages. Brahms in particular comes to mind. I suspect humans have been doing this forever. I think it can have hypnotic and trance properties in the right context and it definitely helps change your perspective.
I love when I spontaneously write something and work it out on an instrument, the whole time thinking I'm playing in 5/4 or 7/8 or something weird like that but its just that it has this bump and swing and is really in 4/4.
I watched Simon Phillips play live in a small club many years ago with a drummer friend of mine. That was the first time I discovered that no matter how hard I tried, I could still get lost counting to 4.
Initially I thought that trying to have someone make sense of the timing, without a musical anchor or reference point, would induce a sort of sonographic illusion within your viewers brains, making them fall off their chair. Cheers