I am currently working on a similar project and this was exactly the video I needed. Excellent execution and the wheels and tires look great. Likely going to do the same thing!
I really like the look of your new wheels based on the Cannondale hubs. Thanks for keeping us in the loop, and for giving credit to your viewers for their suggestions! Great work all around!
Thank you so much! I love sharing of knowledge! It started pretty basic with me sharing mostly lessons learned but there will be a point when we have a great Open Source vehicle. I get many suggestions to improve. I really appreciate it. Cheers!
Great update! I would recommend looking in to the fact that the lefty hub is designed in such a way it won’t undo itself while riding. At least check the bolt once in a while or use a threadlocker. Great to see you have the rotors oriented correctly!
Lacing my own rims is one of the most satisfying things I've ever done. I didn't realise Cannondale didn't supply the axle. I have considered building a bike trailer with a pair of Lefty hubs before. I even bought a pair of hubs and started to collect other materials but still (6 years) haven't got around to actually starting to build it.
Nice update. I love the open source aspect of this project. ♥ Those Cannondale parts look rugged and your spindles seem strong. I like the black wheel and spokes with the chrome nipples too. I'm not sure about your welding on the spindle, a failure here would be bad. I would prefer to see the spindle thread into the uprights or to have someone with a larger welder do it for you. You might also want to look at hydraulic brake calipers as a fully loaded trike might have to carry a total weight of a few hundred kg.
Thank you so much! Indeed, I also don't love that weld. In the meantime, I started thinking that the axle should be possible to be separated from the spindle. I'll test how it rides and consider improving this bit after. Definitely hydraulic brakes are better. I don't have the tools for making the hoses and so on but for the final version, definitely hydraulic. Cheers!
😂 Thanks for the inspiration! I ride a Cannondale with a Lefty... and I want to make it take a front derailleur and 2X drivetrain which is gonna require some homemade components.. You've given me a boost. 🙏👍💪
So glad to hear! I was trying to make the info regarding the axle and the hub useful for other applications, part from making a trike so this is good news;) Cheers!
That's genius. After i chatted with you last time you were messing with the wheels, i checked out that kart wheel supplier you mentioned, and realized that the shipping was quite high with international shipping, and tried using the cheap trailer tires from Harbor Freight for my build. Long story short, turns out uprights with the same bolt pattern are unobtanium. Thanks again for taking us along for the journey.
Thank you so much! Indeed, many solutions are possible. One thing that I love about the Lefty hubs is that they're widely available in the world. And they can be found made by some 3rd party for a reasonable price. You can find a link to these in my website in the parts list. Cheers!
More great progress! I’ve had good results building wheels in the same way with cheap 15mm thru axle hubs and making very similar stub axles on the lathe. Cheaper than those (very lovely) canondale hubs. I’m thrilled you now have access to a lathe, I’m sure folks could get the stub axles made by an online cnc service too.
Parallelogram keeps the steering rods in better lateral symmetry, similar to rack and pinion steering on cars, as apposed to two arcs out of phase by the angle in your triangle. The triangle gives a different turning radius/angle inner to outer(not in a good way unless specifically designed) making one of the tires scrub across the ground acting like a brake and wearing the tires more and increasing resistance etc. Easiest way to improve your setup would be to change the tube out(shorten it as much as you a can), get longer steering rods with them mounted as close to each other(on top of each other using the same bolt would be perfect) in the center so the action is closer to equal side to side. Steering rods also need to be as parallel to top suspension arms so as to limit toe angle change during suspension travel so as not to increase scrub and resistance. Steering rods preferably need to be parallel to the axle line also for best overall geometry. Steering rods preferably need to be in alignment with each other also but that is for the next iteration.
Thank you! Indeed, it would be preferable to have the steering rods parallel to the axle line but I just couldn't fit the steering pivot in there so I moved it back as little as possible. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to design it to not have bump-steer and keep the Ackerman throughout its range. Or at least I'll try. Cheers!
For my trikes, I use samagaga axles and diff. Of course these are driven wheels, not freewheeling like in yours. But the design is similar without the bearings inside. Wheelchair axles should also be great, but these don't have the way to mount the discs unfortunately. At least not that I'm aware off. Great build!
An M6(same general size, dunno what you are using) bolt can fatigue if it experiences as little as 250kg... Disk brakes can completely lock the wheel and experience >1000kg easily. Two little bolts on each caliper support bracket is not something I would trust to be cycled long under these forces. This is why disk calipers are almost always arranged in a pushing configuration, where the caliper is pushed into the frame and not pulled from it as you have here. The brake caliper support arm(blue) looks like it could be easily flipped to the backside of the steering knuckle (yellow), then most of the forces would push it into the knuckle with only a relatively small shear on the top and a small pull on the bottom bolt.
@@pedro-neves , now I'm building my own trike from hoverboard and I put the brake supports on different sides of the frame to force them work on frame push. May be it could be look ugly or event impossible to do the same on your trike.
@pedro-neves the other thing you could consider is using the older style international standard brakes. ( I.e. not post mount). These put the M6 bolts in shear and easily get the performance required. Makes it simpler to put the caliper anywhere without doing calculations! On a slightly pedantic point, even post mount doesn't load the bolts entirely in tension. The force will be applied to the caliper tangent to the disc, and the bolts are not tangent to the disc, so not in pure tension.
Exelente amigo, me alegra que estes feliz, tu proyecto es muy bueno con grandes detalles, me inspira a empezar el mio que lleva alguno años parado saludos y gracias por mostrarnos tus ideas
Really pleasant construction, those special hubs, the black rims and spokes and even the tires look exceptional! 👌 Thanks to @Christopher Thompson too 👍 (did I already ask about the manufacturer and model of the tires? 🤔) As for the front brakes I would strongly recommend to construct them in a way the force of the rotating wheels will PUSH brackets and bolds together instead of pulling them apart when applying the brakes. This will make a huge difference in the amount of force these parts will be able to take and so in the security of the trike 🤓
Thank yo so much! Here's a link to the tires: www.internet-bikes.com/en/140505-delitire-outer-tyre-freestyle-s-199-20-x-195-54-406-black/. Thank you for the tip about the brackets for the brakes. I realize this is not correct and I'll definitely think of how to make it right. Cheers!
A steering linkage inside the main support tube might be less prone to damage. Not sure how much better... commenting mostly to promote your awesome build. Thanks for sharing.
I agree about the suggestion to aim for a parallelogram to simulate a rack and pinion. Steering links want to have thier start near a line between inner pivots on the suspension arms, for less roll and bump steer. I'm not sure how important Ackerman is going to be but ideal is the steering linkage and steering arm pivot point meet on a line between the front steering axis and where the rear wheel contacts the ground. Julien Edgar has a heap of suspension books some of which also have human powered vehicles he's designed and thier suspension development.
Indeed the parallelogram seems to work. I already designed it and tested in CAD and looks good. I'm now working on executing the mechanical construction. Cheers!
It's great seeing it all coming together. 2:17 Doesn't the shaft need some specific tolerance? 6:43 Isn't the preload for the bearing specified somewhere either? Also, have you considered locking features in your threaded joints? Locking heliciols, patched fasteners and other options are available in the market and are not too hard to use. Something like a trike will experience vibrations and that can lead to problems with fasteners. Lastly, are you worried about corrosion? I don't know if you mentioned the shaft material but it looks like aluminum and the fastener seems to be stainless steel. I actually think you don't have much reason to be concerned in that case because the aluminum chunk is significantly bigger so galvanic corrosion will happen at a very slow rate. Still, you could consider using other materials, adding a sacrificial anode, surface treatments/paint or other measures if you find corrosion to be problematic later down the road. That could be said about all parts in your trike where 2 different metals are in contact.
Hello, thank you! - I don't know about the tolerances. I just measured it with a caliper and then confirmed the measurements while making it in the lathe and testing with fitting the hub. - The bearings are not preloaded (or loaded) by the bolt. This is because the other side of the race is met by an edge of the axle (the 17 mm edge) so the bolt can be tightened hard and the inside race of the bearing is pressed between the edge of the axle and the bolt. I love aluminium as a material. Time will tell but I'm thinking it's ok. Cheers!
Maybe I missed it previous video's, but building a tilting trike seems to add a lot of complexity to a two wheeler while having in essence the same driving characteristics (since you still pivot around one point in the front). Also in your comparison video I didn't see major advantages compared to the bakfiets apart from the cargo capacity between those two specific models. I really appreciate the engineering and building process, so if that's the main reason it's still a good reason, but why tilting trike over a standard bakfiets like for instance the bullit? Keep it up!
Indeed bikes are great and simple. I think what attracted me to the 3 wheel design was to: 1 - learn how to make design and build a car (which was my original idea). 2 - Have a vehicle that is great to Amsterdam with the type of mechanisms of a car Why would anyone prefer a cargo trike to a cargo bike? - In my opinion, the trikes are much less probable to crash (mostly in slippery roads). I got this impression when I saw so many motorcycles such as the Piaggio Mp3 in The Netherlands.
@@pedro-nevestrue but aswell all the work going in before that! Really crazy. I had my first bike build, aluminium welding etc. experience not long ago and there is a lot of work going into all the little details! Really looking forward and exited to see how it’s going to handle! I wish you a lot of energy and good ideas!
I've put togehter a ridable tilting cargo trike now but realized I want to change from wire steering to linkage instead. Just used 2 standard brake wires for now which I have had to re tighten a few times and have hard time getting wiggle free but not with too much friction. What's your main reason for going from linkage to wires as your wires just going straight anyhow. Do you know your max tilt angle of the whole bike respective the joints them selves?
Hello, happy to read that you're also making a trike!;) I'm also not sure about the wire steering but I just had to try it. It looks so clean and light. But I agree that it may be a challenge to make it work well. Let's see how this works.. The limit to how much the trike can tilt is set by the front, wheel side ball joints which can tilt by 30deg. This results in an all max ~12 deg tilting of the trike
The right brake rotor seems to be mounted backwards - typically the 'spokes' are meant to point 'forward'. I also wonder whether there's any downsides to bicycle caliper working the unintended direction. They are generally left-specific and here one of them has to be on the right side of the hub. 4 piston calipers typically start squeezing front-first to avoid squealing, not sure about other designs.
I'm new to spoking and I was wondering if I made a mistake. My observation with this spoking geometry is that there is equal force being put into both senses of rotation. Half the spokes in each side are inclined to one side and half to the other so I think it's ok. Interesting note about the squealing but I guess I'l use calipers with one piston. As of one of the calipers being mounted on the unintended side, I cannot think of a reason why it should not work. But, I'll try and share the results. Cheers!
@pedro-neves The wheel spokes are fine. I meant the disc brake rotors "facing" the wrong way, meaning the internal "spokes" of them are not facing the direction of rotation. I'm fairly sure they have indicators showing which way they should spin. This is a design feature for preventing warping/bending.
Hi Pedro, riding and maintaining some lefty's and and Ocho for some years here so i like the idee you used this hubs. The results of those wheels are stunning in combinatiom with the frame! But somewhere i have my concerns about the small diameter (15mm?) alu connection of the hub to the streering block. Ocho hubs are fully connected to the lower fork arm by a much wider diameter to relaese the impact stress. I have some guys around me this week who does FEM stress analizis. (aviation background) which i will raise the question if this alu rod will hold if you like? One thing for sure😉 Please place at the brakes to the rear so the forces while breaking will be placed the towards bracket-steering block (not pulling) I found out it doesn't work with hi end titanium bolds years ago to tackle the 'breaking bold problem' . It wasn't the bold and the bracket... the brakes did show deformation after 2 x 30km ride which where caused by pulling force. Grtz🤟
Thank you so much! The connection of the axle with the steering block is indeed this (12 mm). I'm thinking that that's ok because the forces will be applied to the 27 mm wall that interfaces with the block. Regarding the brake brackets, ya, I've read this advice a few times now. I'll reconsider those brake brackets. Cheers!
Hello, I have considered this option indeed. I guess I would need two motors in the front wheels to not have torque steer and that increases price and complexity too much. Cheers!
I'm sure that there's a jobbing engineering shop in your city that would make you a couple (or more) axles for a reasonable price. Or a collective of retired/part-time workers (we call them Repair Cafes or Men's Sheds in Australia), one of who is a hobbyist machinist, or a retired fitter & turner, who would make them for you.
Thank you for your videos, they are very interesting. One question: could your tilting mechanism be applied to a 4-wheeler? (assuming to be not too wide).
Thank you! And you are welcome;) Indeed, I have thought about that. There is a trike that tilts with the rear wheels but it's a forced system: www.carverelectric.co.uk/. So, I think it can be done with some advantages.
@@pedro-neves Hello Pedro, thank you for your reply. I have sent you an email (but I do not know if the email address I have found is the correct one or not), might you tell me if you have received it? Thanks!
@@Estrellesllunyanes hello, I received your email. I'm so sorry, my time to reply to emails is a bit high now because I'm on holidays, but I'll reply this week for sure. Thank you!
Thank you! I have to be honest with you - I don't fully understand how those hubs, like Hope Pro Evo 2, work (how the bearings are assembled, how the axle interfaces with the hub and the dropouts or fork) and for that reason, cannot respond. But I think I understood how the Lefty hub and axle are designed to work and I liked it very much. And it's designed for a hub supported only on one side.
I'm impressed! You've come a long way constructing and building this trike. Now you even made the axles by yourself :-) but ... 2:20 isn't the fitting of the axle inside the two bearings much to loose? Normally axles and bearings are pressed with some force together. To prevent rotation of the inner ring of the bearing on the soft aluminium axle you could glue rhem together. But I'd prefer steel at this point.
Hello, thanks! They are not loose at all. In this system, the axle is not designed to be pressed into the bearings. Instead, the larger walls of the axle meet each bearing on one side (that's why one bearing must be larger than the other) and finally the bolt tightens the inner race of the second bearing against the wall of the axle. It's a really cool system for one-sided axle!
Thank you for sharing your great work with us. Have you think about using simple 10mm front hub on nuts? I'm afraid the whole your rims with spokes, tires and inner tubes are cheaper than one Lefty hub.
Thank you! The reason why I used the Lefty is because it's designed to be supported only from one side. And they're super durable with the wider part of the axle at 25 mm. They are not so expensive. You can find made from 3rd parties for less than 100 EUR. Cheers!
hey! Love your work, im working on carbonfiber cargobike and your videos are of great value. one question why did you choose aluminium for the spindles?
Hi, thank you so much! I chose aluminium because it's light and easy to mill. I think it's strong enough because the diameter is quite large. Good luck with your project!
Just came across this yesterday and burned through the videos. Just wondering why a front tilting trike instead of a rear tilting trike? Seems like it would be simpler if the dual wheels just had to both passively stay in contact with the ground while turning sharply, rather than be rigged to do mission critical thing like steering, etc.
Hello, to me is more intuitive to have 2 wheels in the front if you want a vehicle that is great to ride. This is mostly because when you turn, the force points front and outwards (exactly where delta trike does not have support). That's why delta trikes are famous for tipping over. A trike with two wheels in the front has great support when turning. Cheers!
I was surprised to see aluminum for the axle. It may be sufficiently strong, I don't know. The weak area and heaviest loaded area is where it necks down for insertion into the spindle I think. If you ever hit something hard or a big pothole, check them for bending or cracking afterwards just to keep yourself safe. The result you have looks really neat. Impressive. I love the collaboration approach. It makes everyone smarter.
Thank you! I think it will be hard for the axle to break. And if it bends, I'll definitely notice it. I love the collaboration approach as well. I learn so much and what I share becomes better and better, so anyone interested in learning how to make a vehicle may get good info here. It's also incredibly rewarding to ride the vehicle that I made and it being better each time. Cheers!
Yes I was going to say the same thing. I would have definetely went for steel axles and also avoid the big hole in de alu knuckle just were it's needs to be on it's strongest. I've built/ customized 2/3 "normal" trikes for myself, so non reverse. I feel the 12mm steel axles aren't really overkill...
I'm thinking of you were too make your axle out of a different material you could reasonably easily attach it by cutting a thread into the hub and screw the axle in. Would need a lock but or grub screw or similar but that's not difficult.
Love your videos man! both very informational and fun to follow you though process/ learning curve! Starting to look real good the spoke really did a huge difference, try the same way as you with the lefty hubs. Bought one side but did not have any lathe so gave up that. Kind of seem like the best choice for sure. I drilled up regular hub to 30mm and installed ball bearings for 10mm axle to get around a all quirky bicyle standards, hope it can hold some load. :D Have you looked into cable steering, running 4 wire should get redundency and remove slack? not doing it now but for next gen that my aim. Regarding parallellogram, yes according to my angle checks that should give better resaults.
Thank you so much! It is so inspiring to read such kind comment;) Indeed, it is a problem that the Lefty axles cannot be bought. I'm considering making a few and selling them in case someone wants to use this solution. Also, keep in mind that I'm sharing the drawings so you can use the drawings to order axles made from your milling manufacturing shop. This build that I'm working on is made with cable steering. I haven't tried it yet because it's not riding yet, but it appears to be working great! I'll share some feedback after I ride it. I've also been making some drawings with the parallelogram and it seems to work great. I already started to build;) Cheers!
@@pedro-neves might be worth it yes, seem to be quite a few building cargo bikes! :D Oh I have missed that somehow it was in the first video sorry! why dont you just go the cable steering all the way out to the kingpins thus reducing all linkages, why go halfway. Or that was my idea when I go for it! Btw how you calulated how much weight yours can carry? Haha already have my version 2 ready in design but not even half way done with my version 1 yet. Cheers
@@Antiairdevil2 indeed I considered linking everything with cables all the way to the knuckles but I was afraid of doing too many changes and then if something doesn't work out, I don't know where the problem is... Well, if this works maybe I'll extend the cable steering further;) Good luck with your build! If you are sharing it somewhere please send a link;) Cheers!
@@pedro-neves ive been working in the development of cargo bikes and light electric vehicles for nearly a decade. Im based in Scotland. Would be great to meet and chat. I hope to be there for it. Is there any way to get in touch with you
Thank you! I used the Lefty because it's designed to be used with an axle supported on one side. Are those DH with 20 mm axles not made for being supported on both sides?
@@pedro-neves yes they are used like normal fork axles. I though of using a m20 Bolt(with sufficent shaft length(without thrads)fot the bearings to rest on) as an axle (have to check if the are oversized enough so you can get the exact diameter for youre bearings by using a lathe) and then fixing/preloading it with a M20 nut. Might be stronger and simpler(if they are not undersized for he bearings)
@@harrie205 Look at shoulder bolts. They have precision smooth diameters for applications such as this. they are available with different lengths of shoulder. It's good simply to know about these items though Pedro has gone in a different method.
@@harrie205 ok, thanks, understood. Yes, it has crossed my mind to use this kind of hubs but the Lefty just clicked with me. I love the axle design and how it's finished with a bolt in the axle in the end. But I definitely agree that there may be easier and better ways of getting this done;)
Bonjour, pour la direction idéalement il faudrait faire un point de pivot commun aux deux biellettes ça revient au même que de faire un parallélogramme mais en plus simple. Au pire deux points de pivots comme actuellement mais les plus proches possible.
Hello Denis thank you! and thank you for the email. The problem with that configuration is that it will create bump steer due to the length of the steering arms;(
thx for the inspiration, I recently started a similar build inspired by you. had some parts already gathered and made long time ago but got new energy to put something togehter. I'll not have front suspension for simplicity. Courioius to know if you've tried to ride any of your builds with the hands of the bar, I guess it's tricky with wires in the linkage though. Use to try that every time I ride a new cargobike, I have a 2wheeled christiania bike that is balancable with no hands but require some speed, most 2wheeled cargobikes I've tried are not, at least not what I've managed. Do you plan for any tilt lock mechanism? Guess you've seen this: ua-cam.com/video/4vtOcou_qXQ/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing that! It's incredibly rewarding to know that my builds are inspiring. I do try to inspire others to build, as I think it can be quite a contributor to happiness. I have tried to ride with hands off the steering bar. Actually, I have a set of tests including that: ua-cam.com/video/q2GTZd428vM/v-deo.htmlsi=PO6p7VDcfU6wyxCi&t=775. I think a tilt lock with be awesome for parking. I haven't designed it yet but I sure consider it. Cheers!
Design flaw. Axles must be similar metal to ball bearings, thus steel, think stainless steel. Stainless ball bearing cages will quickly wear out aluminium axles.
I'm impressed with how you're upcycling instead of using new parts when you can. 😊
Thanks! Those wheel were certainly a great find! Double walled, aluminium, 20 inch!
I am currently working on a similar project and this was exactly the video I needed. Excellent execution and the wheels and tires look great. Likely going to do the same thing!
Good to read that this is helping with your project! Godd luck!
I really like the look of your new wheels based on the Cannondale hubs. Thanks for keeping us in the loop, and for giving credit to your viewers for their suggestions! Great work all around!
Thank you so much! I love sharing of knowledge! It started pretty basic with me sharing mostly lessons learned but there will be a point when we have a great Open Source vehicle.
I get many suggestions to improve. I really appreciate it.
Cheers!
Great update!
I would recommend looking in to the fact that the lefty hub is designed in such a way it won’t undo itself while riding.
At least check the bolt once in a while or use a threadlocker.
Great to see you have the rotors oriented correctly!
Thank you so much! That's a great point! I'll definitely use threadlock on the left wheel.
Cheers!
Lacing my own rims is one of the most satisfying things I've ever done.
I didn't realise Cannondale didn't supply the axle. I have considered building a bike trailer with a pair of Lefty hubs before. I even bought a pair of hubs and started to collect other materials but still (6 years) haven't got around to actually starting to build it.
Indeed, lacing can be a good job if one has patience;)
Ya, the Cannondale axles are part of the fork.
Good luck with your build!
Nice update. I love the open source aspect of this project. ♥ Those Cannondale parts look rugged and your spindles seem strong. I like the black wheel and spokes with the chrome nipples too. I'm not sure about your welding on the spindle, a failure here would be bad. I would prefer to see the spindle thread into the uprights or to have someone with a larger welder do it for you. You might also want to look at hydraulic brake calipers as a fully loaded trike might have to carry a total weight of a few hundred kg.
Thank you so much!
Indeed, I also don't love that weld. In the meantime, I started thinking that the axle should be possible to be separated from the spindle. I'll test how it rides and consider improving this bit after.
Definitely hydraulic brakes are better. I don't have the tools for making the hoses and so on but for the final version, definitely hydraulic.
Cheers!
😂 Thanks for the inspiration! I ride a Cannondale with a Lefty... and I want to make it take a front derailleur and 2X drivetrain which is gonna require some homemade components.. You've given me a boost. 🙏👍💪
So glad to hear! I was trying to make the info regarding the axle and the hub useful for other applications, part from making a trike so this is good news;)
Cheers!
Love how this bike is evolving , am going to use lefty hubs now on a dryland mushing rig I'm building . Thanks for the tip .
Thank you! Great to hear that this was a good tip for you!
We're not worthy!! Thank you for your unending development and sharing it with us. Truly so grateful.
You are welcome;) Thank you too!
That's genius. After i chatted with you last time you were messing with the wheels, i checked out that kart wheel supplier you mentioned, and realized that the shipping was quite high with international shipping, and tried using the cheap trailer tires from Harbor Freight for my build. Long story short, turns out uprights with the same bolt pattern are unobtanium.
Thanks again for taking us along for the journey.
Thank you so much! Indeed, many solutions are possible. One thing that I love about the Lefty hubs is that they're widely available in the world. And they can be found made by some 3rd party for a reasonable price. You can find a link to these in my website in the parts list.
Cheers!
More great progress! I’ve had good results building wheels in the same way with cheap 15mm thru axle hubs and making very similar stub axles on the lathe. Cheaper than those (very lovely) canondale hubs. I’m thrilled you now have access to a lathe, I’m sure folks could get the stub axles made by an online cnc service too.
Thank you! Indeed, having access to a lathe is so cool;) But, there are many CNC online services that can do the job for sure.
Cheers!
Parallelogram keeps the steering rods in better lateral symmetry, similar to rack and pinion steering on cars, as apposed to two arcs out of phase by the angle in your triangle. The triangle gives a different turning radius/angle inner to outer(not in a good way unless specifically designed) making one of the tires scrub across the ground acting like a brake and wearing the tires more and increasing resistance etc. Easiest way to improve your setup would be to change the tube out(shorten it as much as you a can), get longer steering rods with them mounted as close to each other(on top of each other using the same bolt would be perfect) in the center so the action is closer to equal side to side. Steering rods also need to be as parallel to top suspension arms so as to limit toe angle change during suspension travel so as not to increase scrub and resistance. Steering rods preferably need to be parallel to the axle line also for best overall geometry. Steering rods preferably need to be in alignment with each other also but that is for the next iteration.
Thank you! Indeed, it would be preferable to have the steering rods parallel to the axle line but I just couldn't fit the steering pivot in there so I moved it back as little as possible.
I'm pretty sure I'll be able to design it to not have bump-steer and keep the Ackerman throughout its range. Or at least I'll try.
Cheers!
Great idea using the lefty hubs. Nice work on the lathe too. Love a new skill!
Thank you! Me too;)
I watch progress of trikes and all tests, you are achieving excellence.
Thank you so much! I am trying!!
Cheers!
looking good. can't wait for the test ride!
Thank you! Me too!
I said it before and I'll say it again. Your advice is super super useful
Thank you so much for saying it;) this is such motivation to make more!
The very best of youtube and humanity. What an awesome project!
Thank you very much! That is so kind!
For my trikes, I use samagaga axles and diff. Of course these are driven wheels, not freewheeling like in yours. But the design is similar without the bearings inside. Wheelchair axles should also be great, but these don't have the way to mount the discs unfortunately. At least not that I'm aware off. Great build!
Thanks! Those axles are interesting indeed for a Delta Trike.
Cheers!
An M6(same general size, dunno what you are using) bolt can fatigue if it experiences as little as 250kg... Disk brakes can completely lock the wheel and experience >1000kg easily. Two little bolts on each caliper support bracket is not something I would trust to be cycled long under these forces. This is why disk calipers are almost always arranged in a pushing configuration, where the caliper is pushed into the frame and not pulled from it as you have here. The brake caliper support arm(blue) looks like it could be easily flipped to the backside of the steering knuckle (yellow), then most of the forces would push it into the knuckle with only a relatively small shear on the top and a small pull on the bottom bolt.
Should be easy to flip the brackets to the other side?
Interesting the idea about pushing the bracket into the frame. Makes sense to me. I'll give this some thought, thank you.
@@pedro-neves , now I'm building my own trike from hoverboard and I put the brake supports on different sides of the frame to force them work on frame push. May be it could be look ugly or event impossible to do the same on your trike.
@pedro-neves the other thing you could consider is using the older style international standard brakes. ( I.e. not post mount). These put the M6 bolts in shear and easily get the performance required. Makes it simpler to put the caliper anywhere without doing calculations!
On a slightly pedantic point, even post mount doesn't load the bolts entirely in tension. The force will be applied to the caliper tangent to the disc, and the bolts are not tangent to the disc, so not in pure tension.
@@ruslangabitov5202 I'll certainly look for a solution to improve the position of the brake calipers. Thanks!
Small world! I used the same lathe at the Open Workshop to make my adapter discs! 🤘😎
Oh, that's so cool! Nice place right??
@@pedro-neves For sure, amazing!
Nice work. Please check your brake discs, there is usually an arrow of rotation direction, it looks like you may have mounted them backwards.
I have mounted them incorrectly, thank you so much for pointing that out!
Great project. Thanks for sharing it.
Thank you! You are welcome;)
Exelente amigo, me alegra que estes feliz, tu proyecto es muy bueno con grandes detalles, me inspira a empezar el mio que lleva alguno años parado saludos y gracias por mostrarnos tus ideas
Muchas gracias! Fico contento que mi trabajo inspira a otros!
Salud!
Really pleasant construction, those special hubs, the black rims and spokes and even the tires look exceptional! 👌
Thanks to @Christopher Thompson too 👍 (did I already ask about the manufacturer and model of the tires? 🤔)
As for the front brakes I would strongly recommend to construct them in a way the force of the rotating wheels will PUSH brackets and bolds together instead of pulling them apart when applying the brakes. This will make a huge difference in the amount of force these parts will be able to take and so in the security of the trike 🤓
Thank yo so much!
Here's a link to the tires: www.internet-bikes.com/en/140505-delitire-outer-tyre-freestyle-s-199-20-x-195-54-406-black/.
Thank you for the tip about the brackets for the brakes. I realize this is not correct and I'll definitely think of how to make it right.
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves
Thank you very much! 🙌
@@radwanderer6165 you are welcome;)
A steering linkage inside the main support tube might be less prone to damage. Not sure how much better... commenting mostly to promote your awesome build. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much! That's very kind of you;)
Cheers!
I agree about the suggestion to aim for a parallelogram to simulate a rack and pinion. Steering links want to have thier start near a line between inner pivots on the suspension arms, for less roll and bump steer. I'm not sure how important Ackerman is going to be but ideal is the steering linkage and steering arm pivot point meet on a line between the front steering axis and where the rear wheel contacts the ground. Julien Edgar has a heap of suspension books some of which also have human powered vehicles he's designed and thier suspension development.
Indeed the parallelogram seems to work. I already designed it and tested in CAD and looks good. I'm now working on executing the mechanical construction.
Cheers!
It's great seeing it all coming together.
2:17 Doesn't the shaft need some specific tolerance?
6:43 Isn't the preload for the bearing specified somewhere either?
Also, have you considered locking features in your threaded joints? Locking heliciols, patched fasteners and other options are available in the market and are not too hard to use. Something like a trike will experience vibrations and that can lead to problems with fasteners.
Lastly, are you worried about corrosion? I don't know if you mentioned the shaft material but it looks like aluminum and the fastener seems to be stainless steel. I actually think you don't have much reason to be concerned in that case because the aluminum chunk is significantly bigger so galvanic corrosion will happen at a very slow rate. Still, you could consider using other materials, adding a sacrificial anode, surface treatments/paint or other measures if you find corrosion to be problematic later down the road. That could be said about all parts in your trike where 2 different metals are in contact.
Hello, thank you!
- I don't know about the tolerances. I just measured it with a caliper and then confirmed the measurements while making it in the lathe and testing with fitting the hub.
- The bearings are not preloaded (or loaded) by the bolt. This is because the other side of the race is met by an edge of the axle (the 17 mm edge) so the bolt can be tightened hard and the inside race of the bearing is pressed between the edge of the axle and the bolt.
I love aluminium as a material. Time will tell but I'm thinking it's ok.
Cheers!
I wish you continued success
Thank you so much! To you too!
I love these videos! This is a really cool Project!
Thank you so much!
4:44 What you're referring to as spoking is called lacing a wheel. 😊
In his native language they probably have a verb which is derived from “spoke”. In German we say „einspeichen“ while spokes are „Speichen“.
@glennmorgan4197, thank you! I do prefer to say things right! I may have invented that word indeed;)
@@Mike-oz4cv thank you for creating this excuse. My native language is Portuguese. I think I may have just invented that word.
Cheers!
Maybe I missed it previous video's, but building a tilting trike seems to add a lot of complexity to a two wheeler while having in essence the same driving characteristics (since you still pivot around one point in the front). Also in your comparison video I didn't see major advantages compared to the bakfiets apart from the cargo capacity between those two specific models. I really appreciate the engineering and building process, so if that's the main reason it's still a good reason, but why tilting trike over a standard bakfiets like for instance the bullit? Keep it up!
Indeed bikes are great and simple. I think what attracted me to the 3 wheel design was to:
1 - learn how to make design and build a car (which was my original idea).
2 - Have a vehicle that is great to Amsterdam with the type of mechanisms of a car
Why would anyone prefer a cargo trike to a cargo bike? - In my opinion, the trikes are much less probable to crash (mostly in slippery roads). I got this impression when I saw so many motorcycles such as the Piaggio Mp3 in The Netherlands.
I'm very curious how this thing feels to ride! Looking forward to see it finished!
Me too!;) Thank you so much!
Im really looking forward to the outcome! Really interesting!
Thank you! It's always exciting to reach the part to ride it;)
Cheers!
@@pedro-nevestrue but aswell all the work going in before that! Really crazy. I had my first bike build, aluminium welding etc. experience not long ago and there is a lot of work going into all the little details! Really looking forward and exited to see how it’s going to handle!
I wish you a lot of energy and good ideas!
@@TheMim95 indeed, hundreds of hours go into this.
Thank you so much for the encouragement words;)
awesome job. lekker bakfiets in the making
Thank you!
Excelente solution ! U the best !
Thank you so much!
I've put togehter a ridable tilting cargo trike now but realized I want to change from wire steering to linkage instead. Just used 2 standard brake wires for now which I have had to re tighten a few times and have hard time getting wiggle free but not with too much friction. What's your main reason for going from linkage to wires as your wires just going straight anyhow. Do you know your max tilt angle of the whole bike respective the joints them selves?
Hello, happy to read that you're also making a trike!;)
I'm also not sure about the wire steering but I just had to try it. It looks so clean and light. But I agree that it may be a challenge to make it work well. Let's see how this works..
The limit to how much the trike can tilt is set by the front, wheel side ball joints which can tilt by 30deg. This results in an all max ~12 deg tilting of the trike
Hello Pedro, I'm impressed with your work. Didn't know you live in the netherlands. It would be nice to meet you.
Hello, thank you!
The right brake rotor seems to be mounted backwards - typically the 'spokes' are meant to point 'forward'. I also wonder whether there's any downsides to bicycle caliper working the unintended direction. They are generally left-specific and here one of them has to be on the right side of the hub. 4 piston calipers typically start squeezing front-first to avoid squealing, not sure about other designs.
I'm new to spoking and I was wondering if I made a mistake. My observation with this spoking geometry is that there is equal force being put into both senses of rotation. Half the spokes in each side are inclined to one side and half to the other so I think it's ok.
Interesting note about the squealing but I guess I'l use calipers with one piston. As of one of the calipers being mounted on the unintended side, I cannot think of a reason why it should not work.
But, I'll try and share the results.
Cheers!
@pedro-neves The wheel spokes are fine. I meant the disc brake rotors "facing" the wrong way, meaning the internal "spokes" of them are not facing the direction of rotation. I'm fairly sure they have indicators showing which way they should spin. This is a design feature for preventing warping/bending.
About the brakesin the unintended direction, this is done more than you might think on trikes. I don't really feel this should matter.
@@walker15130 you are so right! They are the other way around. Will fix it. Thanks!
Hi Pedro, riding and maintaining some lefty's and and Ocho for some years here so i like the idee you used this hubs. The results of those wheels are stunning in combinatiom with the frame! But somewhere i have my concerns about the small diameter (15mm?) alu connection of the hub to the streering block. Ocho hubs are fully connected to the lower fork arm by a much wider diameter to relaese the impact stress. I have some guys around me this week who does FEM stress analizis. (aviation background) which i will raise the question if this alu rod will hold if you like?
One thing for sure😉 Please place at the brakes to the rear so the forces while breaking will be placed the towards bracket-steering block (not pulling) I found out it doesn't work with hi end titanium bolds years ago to tackle the 'breaking bold problem' . It wasn't the bold and the bracket... the brakes did show deformation after 2 x 30km ride which where caused by pulling force.
Grtz🤟
Thank you so much!
The connection of the axle with the steering block is indeed this (12 mm). I'm thinking that that's ok because the forces will be applied to the 27 mm wall that interfaces with the block.
Regarding the brake brackets, ya, I've read this advice a few times now. I'll reconsider those brake brackets.
Cheers!
How about using an inwheel motor only on the front wheel?
The rear wheels keep the old ones
Hello, I have considered this option indeed. I guess I would need two motors in the front wheels to not have torque steer and that increases price and complexity too much.
Cheers!
I'm sure that there's a jobbing engineering shop in your city that would make you a couple (or more) axles for a reasonable price. Or a collective of retired/part-time workers (we call them Repair Cafes or Men's Sheds in Australia), one of who is a hobbyist machinist, or a retired fitter & turner, who would make them for you.
Hello, indeed, there may be some people that could make it but I loved learning how to operate a lathe. It's an incredible machine!
Cheers!
Watch it in 1.25x speed. You're welcome.
Hehe, indeed;)
Thank you for your videos, they are very interesting. One question: could your tilting mechanism be applied to a 4-wheeler? (assuming to be not too wide).
Thank you! And you are welcome;)
Indeed, I have thought about that. There is a trike that tilts with the rear wheels but it's a forced system: www.carverelectric.co.uk/.
So, I think it can be done with some advantages.
@@pedro-neves Hello Pedro, thank you for your reply. I have sent you an email (but I do not know if the email address I have found is the correct one or not), might you tell me if you have received it? Thanks!
@@Estrellesllunyanes hello, I received your email. I'm so sorry, my time to reply to emails is a bit high now because I'm on holidays, but I'll reply this week for sure. Thank you!
Impressive project, Great Job! What is your opinion about using 20mm freeride hubs (like Hope Pro Evo 2) without spacer cups instead of Lefty hubs?
Thank you!
I have to be honest with you - I don't fully understand how those hubs, like Hope Pro Evo 2, work (how the bearings are assembled, how the axle interfaces with the hub and the dropouts or fork) and for that reason, cannot respond.
But I think I understood how the Lefty hub and axle are designed to work and I liked it very much. And it's designed for a hub supported only on one side.
I'm impressed! You've come a long way constructing and building this trike. Now you even made the axles by yourself :-)
but ... 2:20 isn't the fitting of the axle inside the two bearings much to loose? Normally axles and bearings are pressed with some force together. To prevent rotation of the inner ring of the bearing on the soft aluminium axle you could glue rhem together. But I'd prefer steel at this point.
Hello, thanks! They are not loose at all. In this system, the axle is not designed to be pressed into the bearings. Instead, the larger walls of the axle meet each bearing on one side (that's why one bearing must be larger than the other) and finally the bolt tightens the inner race of the second bearing against the wall of the axle. It's a really cool system for one-sided axle!
Thank you for sharing your great work with us. Have you think about using simple 10mm front hub on nuts? I'm afraid the whole your rims with spokes, tires and inner tubes are cheaper than one Lefty hub.
Thank you!
The reason why I used the Lefty is because it's designed to be supported only from one side. And they're super durable with the wider part of the axle at 25 mm.
They are not so expensive. You can find made from 3rd parties for less than 100 EUR.
Cheers!
hey! Love your work, im working on carbonfiber cargobike and your videos are of great value. one question why did you choose aluminium for the spindles?
Hi, thank you so much!
I chose aluminium because it's light and easy to mill. I think it's strong enough because the diameter is quite large.
Good luck with your project!
Just came across this yesterday and burned through the videos. Just wondering why a front tilting trike instead of a rear tilting trike? Seems like it would be simpler if the dual wheels just had to both passively stay in contact with the ground while turning sharply, rather than be rigged to do mission critical thing like steering, etc.
Hello, to me is more intuitive to have 2 wheels in the front if you want a vehicle that is great to ride. This is mostly because when you turn, the force points front and outwards (exactly where delta trike does not have support). That's why delta trikes are famous for tipping over. A trike with two wheels in the front has great support when turning.
Cheers!
I was surprised to see aluminum for the axle. It may be sufficiently strong, I don't know. The weak area and heaviest loaded area is where it necks down for insertion into the spindle I think. If you ever hit something hard or a big pothole, check them for bending or cracking afterwards just to keep yourself safe. The result you have looks really neat. Impressive. I love the collaboration approach. It makes everyone smarter.
Thank you!
I think it will be hard for the axle to break. And if it bends, I'll definitely notice it.
I love the collaboration approach as well. I learn so much and what I share becomes better and better, so anyone interested in learning how to make a vehicle may get good info here.
It's also incredibly rewarding to ride the vehicle that I made and it being better each time.
Cheers!
Yes I was going to say the same thing. I would have definetely went for steel axles and also avoid the big hole in de alu knuckle just were it's needs to be on it's strongest. I've built/ customized 2/3 "normal" trikes for myself, so non reverse. I feel the 12mm steel axles aren't really overkill...
@@shadesinblack1 thanks! I'm thinking that the knuckle may have a second revision indeed.
I'm thinking of you were too make your axle out of a different material you could reasonably easily attach it by cutting a thread into the hub and screw the axle in. Would need a lock but or grub screw or similar but that's not difficult.
@@arrindaley3714 ya, I agree that the axle should be fastened instead of welded. Next version;)
Brake disc orientation is important (manufacturers say)
Yap, I've been told it's wrong. I'll turn them around. Thanks!
Love your videos man! both very informational and fun to follow you though process/ learning curve!
Starting to look real good the spoke really did a huge difference, try the same way as you with the lefty hubs. Bought one side but did not have any lathe so gave up that. Kind of seem like the best choice for sure.
I drilled up regular hub to 30mm and installed ball bearings for 10mm axle to get around a all quirky bicyle standards, hope it can hold some load. :D
Have you looked into cable steering, running 4 wire should get redundency and remove slack? not doing it now but for next gen that my aim.
Regarding parallellogram, yes according to my angle checks that should give better resaults.
Thank you so much! It is so inspiring to read such kind comment;)
Indeed, it is a problem that the Lefty axles cannot be bought. I'm considering making a few and selling them in case someone wants to use this solution. Also, keep in mind that I'm sharing the drawings so you can use the drawings to order axles made from your milling manufacturing shop.
This build that I'm working on is made with cable steering. I haven't tried it yet because it's not riding yet, but it appears to be working great! I'll share some feedback after I ride it.
I've also been making some drawings with the parallelogram and it seems to work great. I already started to build;)
Cheers!
@@pedro-neves might be worth it yes, seem to be quite a few building cargo bikes! :D
Oh I have missed that somehow it was in the first video sorry! why dont you just go the cable steering all the way out to the kingpins thus reducing all linkages, why go halfway. Or that was my idea when I go for it!
Btw how you calulated how much weight yours can carry?
Haha already have my version 2 ready in design but not even half way done with my version 1 yet.
Cheers
@@Antiairdevil2 indeed I considered linking everything with cables all the way to the knuckles but I was afraid of doing too many changes and then if something doesn't work out, I don't know where the problem is... Well, if this works maybe I'll extend the cable steering further;)
Good luck with your build! If you are sharing it somewhere please send a link;)
Cheers!
Great Job, Man 👍
Loctite the Wheelbolts on the left side...maybe
Thank you! And good point! The system is made for not undoing if installed on the right side.
Cheers!
Will you be at the cargo bike festival this year?
I'd love to be there and take the trike! It's tight for me but I'll try.
@@pedro-neves ive been working in the development of cargo bikes and light electric vehicles for nearly a decade. Im based in Scotland. Would be great to meet and chat. I hope to be there for it. Is there any way to get in touch with you
@@Alex-uh1mj sounds great! You're welcome to email me at: pncneves@hotmail.com.
great video(as always)
Why the lefty and not a DH front hub(20mm axle(in steel that should be enough))(that might be easier)?
Thank you!
I used the Lefty because it's designed to be used with an axle supported on one side.
Are those DH with 20 mm axles not made for being supported on both sides?
@@pedro-neves yes they are used like normal fork axles. I though of using a m20 Bolt(with sufficent shaft length(without thrads)fot the bearings to rest on) as an axle (have to check if the are oversized enough so you can get the exact diameter for youre bearings by using a lathe) and then fixing/preloading it with a M20 nut. Might be stronger and simpler(if they are not undersized for he bearings)
@@harrie205 Look at shoulder bolts. They have precision smooth diameters for applications such as this. they are available with different lengths of shoulder. It's good simply to know about these items though Pedro has gone in a different method.
@@lint2023 thanks, thats obvious the better solution.
@@harrie205 ok, thanks, understood. Yes, it has crossed my mind to use this kind of hubs but the Lefty just clicked with me. I love the axle design and how it's finished with a bolt in the axle in the end.
But I definitely agree that there may be easier and better ways of getting this done;)
you can reference the streek cargo bike in Japan
The Streek looks very cool indeed! I start to get more interested in the small rear wheels.
Cheers!
Brilliant. I can’t add anymore comments than the hive mind has already said.
Thank you so much Andrew!
4:17 remember kids, spoking is bad for you!.
Hehe, I think the correct term is lacing;)
Bonjour, pour la direction idéalement il faudrait faire un point de pivot commun aux deux biellettes ça revient au même que de faire un parallélogramme mais en plus simple. Au pire deux points de pivots comme actuellement mais les plus proches possible.
Hello, I'm interested in your suggestion but I cannot fully understand it. Could you send a simple drawing? pncneves@hotmail.com.
Thanks!
@@pedro-neves je vous ai envoyé un mail.
@@denisleroux5834 are you sure? I did not receive it.
@@pedro-neves en effet il y a eu un problème. Maintenant c’est bon vous avez du le recevoir.
Hello Denis thank you! and thank you for the email. The problem with that configuration is that it will create bump steer due to the length of the steering arms;(
You obliterated it again Pedro :) what an info.....
Thank you so much!;)
Merci !
Thank you so much for this kind and generous demonstration of appreciation!
Why not buy a wheelchair set?
Maybe that's a good option as well.
cargo in kg please
Hello, I'm aiming for max 100 kg.
@@pedro-neves cool looks great
@@dannymcwilliams1656 thank you!
thx for the inspiration, I recently started a similar build inspired by you. had some parts already gathered and made long time ago but got new energy to put something togehter. I'll not have front suspension for simplicity. Courioius to know if you've tried to ride any of your builds with the hands of the bar, I guess it's tricky with wires in the linkage though. Use to try that every time I ride a new cargobike, I have a 2wheeled christiania bike that is balancable with no hands but require some speed, most 2wheeled cargobikes I've tried are not, at least not what I've managed.
Do you plan for any tilt lock mechanism? Guess you've seen this: ua-cam.com/video/4vtOcou_qXQ/v-deo.html
Thank you for sharing that! It's incredibly rewarding to know that my builds are inspiring. I do try to inspire others to build, as I think it can be quite a contributor to happiness.
I have tried to ride with hands off the steering bar. Actually, I have a set of tests including that: ua-cam.com/video/q2GTZd428vM/v-deo.htmlsi=PO6p7VDcfU6wyxCi&t=775.
I think a tilt lock with be awesome for parking. I haven't designed it yet but I sure consider it.
Cheers!
Design flaw. Axles must be similar metal to ball bearings, thus steel, think stainless steel. Stainless ball bearing cages will quickly wear out aluminium axles.
Hi, thanks. I do not expect there to be friction between the axle and the bearings, though.
put a cap and cover the hole in uprights to hide that ugly weld
I will need many caps if I want to hide all the ugly welds
@@pedro-neves but most of your work is very good
@@zico3239 thank you very much! But I admit that welding is not my forte;)