While I would like to see more players pick up brawl, I do not think spectators should have a say in who we do and don’t play. The argument is essentially “ban mk because I’m tired of watching him” and is a pretty entitled take, but I’m willing to admit I’ve missed the point if that isn’t the case.
That is part of the reason. Another big part is that a lot of the other characters in the game haven't been played anywhere near as much, and haven't been as well developed as meta knight.
Brawl rollback netplay is being worked on (Brawlback) and that will definitely give Brawl a significant boost. And people will find a way to make the game good, wether it's banning MK (and potentially looking at the stagelist to make ICs balanced since they are bad on movement-based stages) or some other solution.
I'm with you that MK is the death of Brawl. It's a sad admission because he definitely is the most interesting character in the game. Although I don't think there's a world where MK is banned and ICs aren't also banned. There are a number of different ways ICs have to explode a stock from a single opening into grab than the 2 most used chaingrabs. In some ways, the meta would become even more stilted than with MK because ICs is very much a gatekeeper kind of character that almost half the cast have a 7-3 MU or worse against. Even Snake - who has an obvious good match up - will lose his stocks to the exact same gamplan that the lower tiered characters do against ICs. But those are just my thoughts. Appreciate your vid and thoughts too.
I really respect and wholeheartedly agree with your way of thinking, I really want more characters developed. But speaking purely in hypothesis doesn’t really get us anywhere. I’m more than sure this mentality was already approached by others countless times in the past 15 years. It can’t be just 15 years of laziness or not trying. For change to happen, evidence needs to be presented. Talking in hypotheticals, even in a large video format, does not produce change or invite others to change the starts quo. Larger moves need to be taken as opposed to just pitching ideas. I do find meta knight ban to potentially produce healthy change, but for that to happen there has to be unanimous agreement and since that has to happen since the last 15 years I don’t believe it’s happening soon either. I don’t want to proclaim this game dead, mainly because I can’t predict the future and I love brawl to death. But random meta changes (no pun intended) in other metas won’t randomly start a domino effect.
I feel like the best way forward for Brawl would have been adopting a community led mod like Balanced and just updating it annually or something with requested changes. Obv the chance of that had long since passed us by so now looking at an MK and Icies ban feels like the only way towards a less stale space for the meta.
Just to correct, fox was not considered the best since the beginning. It was first marth, then sheik, even jigglypuff. Captain falcon then climbed the ranks and now dks are popping up. And i wholeheartedly believe meta knight is still the strongest smash character ever made, even if people refine other characters. He just has insane tools, only 1 weakness being he is light. One character i know that has potential in brawl is def fox as he did show some wins even against meta knights.
I said near the beginning. I knew sheik was number 1 for the first few tier lists. I didn't know about fox beating meta knight though, but if he can I know there's potential for many other characters.
@supersmashbrosbrawl-rc7uq Ah ok, but yeah it's more like a secret counter play I saw some people use on meta knight back then like how armada used young link against jigglypuff for a little
characters like ic's, snake, diddy, etc., have been developed for years. Meta knight is just a good character. It isn't because of m2k playing the character. Fox used to be 4th on the tierlist in melee, and Sheik used to be first. The meta develops over time, and the meta of brawl has shown that meta knight is GOOD, and there's nothing you can do about it. if you took a random mid tier character like sonic, or ddd, and developed it for years, sonic still wouldn't become top 5 or even top 10. Brawl's meta is extremely intricate and precise to the point where the top 10 characters arent changing anytime soon. it's clear to all of us that meta knight is good. Low/mid tiers are placed to their respective places on the tierlist for a reason.
Sheik was only number one for 4 years, and ever since, Fox has been number one. I'm not saying meta knights, a bad character, I'm just saying he's the most well developed. I think snake is the only other character who has come even close to the development of metaknight. I wouldn't consider ice climbers a well developed character. When they only do one move, the chain grab. Get rid of the chain grab, and they are not a top 10 character in brawl. Most of the other characters you mentioned only have one person who is still playing them at top play, like player 1 for Diddy Kong, but there is always multiple people playing metaknight. And you said it yourself, IF you took a random character and developed them yourself for years, they still wouldn't get into the top 5 or top 10. KEY WORD 'IF'. Nobody does it because they don't believe it will ever work. There aren't enough new people playing brawl to get more development for these characters, and the ones who are still playing, don't want anything to change and aren't even trying to get better with other characters.
WHERE WAS THIS MAN 15 YEARS AGO???
3 years old in the cradle.
While I would like to see more players pick up brawl, I do not think spectators should have a say in who we do and don’t play. The argument is essentially “ban mk because I’m tired of watching him” and is a pretty entitled take, but I’m willing to admit I’ve missed the point if that isn’t the case.
That is part of the reason. Another big part is that a lot of the other characters in the game haven't been played anywhere near as much, and haven't been as well developed as meta knight.
Brawl rollback netplay is being worked on (Brawlback) and that will definitely give Brawl a significant boost. And people will find a way to make the game good, wether it's banning MK (and potentially looking at the stagelist to make ICs balanced since they are bad on movement-based stages) or some other solution.
I'm with you that MK is the death of Brawl. It's a sad admission because he definitely is the most interesting character in the game. Although I don't think there's a world where MK is banned and ICs aren't also banned. There are a number of different ways ICs have to explode a stock from a single opening into grab than the 2 most used chaingrabs. In some ways, the meta would become even more stilted than with MK because ICs is very much a gatekeeper kind of character that almost half the cast have a 7-3 MU or worse against. Even Snake - who has an obvious good match up - will lose his stocks to the exact same gamplan that the lower tiered characters do against ICs.
But those are just my thoughts. Appreciate your vid and thoughts too.
I really respect and wholeheartedly agree with your way of thinking, I really want more characters developed. But speaking purely in hypothesis doesn’t really get us anywhere. I’m more than sure this mentality was already approached by others countless times in the past 15 years. It can’t be just 15 years of laziness or not trying. For change to happen, evidence needs to be presented. Talking in hypotheticals, even in a large video format, does not produce change or invite others to change the starts quo. Larger moves need to be taken as opposed to just pitching ideas. I do find meta knight ban to potentially produce healthy change, but for that to happen there has to be unanimous agreement and since that has to happen since the last 15 years I don’t believe it’s happening soon either. I don’t want to proclaim this game dead, mainly because I can’t predict the future and I love brawl to death. But random meta changes (no pun intended) in other metas won’t randomly start a domino effect.
I feel like the best way forward for Brawl would have been adopting a community led mod like Balanced and just updating it annually or something with requested changes. Obv the chance of that had long since passed us by so now looking at an MK and Icies ban feels like the only way towards a less stale space for the meta.
@@SomniaCE the best way forward for brawl was/is project M tbh
i will say bawl comp is degen but they are the ones keeping it alive by playing in brackets
love the vid!!! thoughts on pm/p+??
Thank you. I would give my opinion on pm/p+ but I've never played them.
Nah, Joel is spitting real truths with this one
Just to correct, fox was not considered the best since the beginning. It was first marth, then sheik, even jigglypuff. Captain falcon then climbed the ranks and now dks are popping up. And i wholeheartedly believe meta knight is still the strongest smash character ever made, even if people refine other characters. He just has insane tools, only 1 weakness being he is light. One character i know that has potential in brawl is def fox as he did show some wins even against meta knights.
I said near the beginning. I knew sheik was number 1 for the first few tier lists. I didn't know about fox beating meta knight though, but if he can I know there's potential for many other characters.
@supersmashbrosbrawl-rc7uq
Ah ok, but yeah it's more like a secret counter play I saw some people use on meta knight back then like how armada used young link against jigglypuff for a little
characters like ic's, snake, diddy, etc., have been developed for years. Meta knight is just a good character. It isn't because of m2k playing the character.
Fox used to be 4th on the tierlist in melee, and Sheik used to be first. The meta develops over time, and the meta of brawl has shown that meta knight is GOOD, and there's nothing you can do about it.
if you took a random mid tier character like sonic, or ddd, and developed it for years, sonic still wouldn't become top 5 or even top 10. Brawl's meta is extremely intricate and precise to the point where the top 10 characters arent changing anytime soon.
it's clear to all of us that meta knight is good. Low/mid tiers are placed to their respective places on the tierlist for a reason.
Sheik was only number one for 4 years, and ever since, Fox has been number one. I'm not saying meta knights, a bad character, I'm just saying he's the most well developed. I think snake is the only other character who has come even close to the development of metaknight. I wouldn't consider ice climbers a well developed character. When they only do one move, the chain grab. Get rid of the chain grab, and they are not a top 10 character in brawl. Most of the other characters you mentioned only have one person who is still playing them at top play, like player 1 for Diddy Kong, but there is always multiple people playing metaknight. And you said it yourself, IF you took a random character and developed them yourself for years, they still wouldn't get into the top 5 or top 10. KEY WORD 'IF'. Nobody does it because they don't believe it will ever work. There aren't enough new people playing brawl to get more development for these characters, and the ones who are still playing, don't want anything to change and aren't even trying to get better with other characters.
brawl has been dead since 2014
Competitively, for sure.
i still play it, daniel.
Tripping lolol