North Italic Alphabets (with Dr. Corinna Salomon)
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2023
- Dr. Corinna Salomon (University of Vienna) explains and answers questions about ancient North Italic alphabets used in the Alps, which many scholars have speculated could be a source of the rune futhark alphabets. From a live conversation held on Zoom with Jackson Crawford's Patreon supporters on April 23, 2023.
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One of the interviews we've been waiting for! Thank you dr.s Salomon and Crawford!
I would love to see a discussion on the possible origin of the Irish Ogham alphabet.
Seconded, and what connections or changes might have happened during the Viking raids on Ireland.
If there’s any academic I’d want to see interviewed about Ogham, it’d be Dr. Katherine Forsyth. She’s written a lot of the very best work on the subject out there.
This talk does clarify, not any origin of Runes, but that having an alphabet is important.
phantastically interesting, thank you!
Just feeding the algorithm here. Thank you for such an amazing work in providing college level conversations for free
Many thanks to to Jackson and Dr Salomon for such an interesting chat. Between that and looking up references and contextual material it has been an evening well spent.
Feeding the algorithm.
Seems like as usual the whole thing is complicated, and that’s why we love it.
These videos are incredibly valuable and I love them deeply.
Shout-out to my fellow hardcore nerds!
Thank you so much for posting these interviews! I am usually not able to join them live and I am so thankful to be able to learn on my own time! Thank you for making a university of UA-cam
Oh, I'm pretty early to this one. Thanks for the interview! Excited for this one.
@1:05:00 made me think of how during war communication becomes a catalyst, like how a precursor to the computer was created (Imitation game) out of a need to intercept communications and the US used native American languages at times to communicate in a way that the foe would not be able to understand. So, extrapolating that, runes could well have been concieved to create a communication barrier. Fascinating stuff, thanks again!
keep it up!
Wild to see someone from my own university as a guest (rhough I've never encountered Dr. Salomon specifically), though in hindsight I deffo shouldn't be surprised. It's one of the biggest in Europe, after all.
The Latin word "alphabetum" which I guess was coined 2nd-3rd century CE might make a pun with Scandinavian/Germanic ears ? Alphabet would sound something like "Aelfe bita" or "Elf cuts" to them. Maybe they thought the Latin letters had "magic" to them? Thank you for interesting channel.
As someone with Friulian heritage, I find this absolutely fascinating. Is there any surviving evidence of writing by the Carni Celts of the north east prior to Roman conquest, and if so what letters did they use?
If I could throw out my own baseless hypothesis here, it wouldn't surprise me if the difference between runes, and these North Italic alphabets were attributable to some Sequoia type figure,or figures,
who for very similar reasons, took what he knew of existing scripts, and created one for his own language.
I would say the same could go for Turkish Runes as well. Possibly inspired, but not necessarily directly based on a pre-existing writing system.
Does anyone else feel that the Indus script and the Rongorongo script resemble runic scripts?
What about old-slavonic glagolica? Could not be runes especially crafted by someone for old-norse by picking the cherries?
I must apologize for my ruther amateurish approach, it is only intuition, but doesn't it somehow solve the problem, that there is no single origin alphabet for runes? I imagine some kind of skald-like Constantin and Method one who wanted to brings litteracy for old norse....
Ogham looks an awful lot like something inspired by Roman learning being ostentatiously not Roman.
Also, I could have listened to that for hours.
I don't see why the Germans couldn't have just picked up letters here and there from different Alpine cultures. It seems like they have every letter but 3 to comprise the runic alphabet. If we tack on the idea of traditional revivals in response to Roman expansion maybe some of these revivals happened north of the Alps in or near German territory. Its also not like the Germans and Romans were completely isolated from each other. It seems like all these things were happening at all the same time. Alpine writing being phased out, nationalistic revivals, Roman friction with Germans which might have lead to the Germans picking up an Alphabet and so why not one from their Alpine neighbors.
Its just one of those things that confuses me as to why people are so afraid to even posit something as a possibility at times. During this discussion she showed how not only all of the runes exist in the region at the time but that these different scripts were also cross borrowing between each other, Etruscan and Latin. But when asked if the runes might have a similar construction there is hesitation. Well it seems kind of similar. As in taking a few letters from each of them and a few from Latin where the others were potentially insufficient. That doesn't feel like a stretch to propose as a potential possibility, so i don't know why others are so afraid of it. Its like they want the runes to be 100% from another alphabet.
edit: on a similar note i kind of feel like the pure Latin origin is bad. i can understand wanting to make the claim because a couple of letters match but a pure 1 to 1 there doesn't make sense when so many runes look cherry picked from Alpine script.
i think the ft written as pt is important, i dont believe ht is written kt, so italic cant explain it, so either theres somehow a punic influence or if any greek did that that early or itd have to be that this is some holdover from a lack of f and a later addition of latin f.
actually, it might be caused by those scribe practice tablets having consonant clusters so an pt digraph is maintained because its in the digraph set that way and theres no pt ft distinction, might even be enfluenced by obvious cognates being spelled pt
I told you I'd see you in the comments.
I think Caesar claims that his numbers for the Helvetii came from a set of tablets in Greek letters. So that's one reference to one Celtic group in the Alps using Greek letters. But the numbers are way too high, the logistics don't work, so his account can't be completely correct.
Gaius J. C. also writes that deer in gallia have no knee joints. Best to take his reports cum grano salis...
If the oldes runs is found in Norway, can this be a local thing, with no influence from greese/italy?
They could have made the runic alphabet on their own, but the idea of an alphabet must have come from Greece/Italy. Once they had the idea of an alphabet, yeah, the specific letter shapes might be random.
There was a lot of trade long before the oldest known Runes.
I have never understood why everyone wants ruins to have come from anywhere. Why must there be some sort of spreading of writing when we know writing has been independently invented multiple times around the world a Germanic tribe that was illiterate could have either independently created it or heard about writing from other groupsand tried to create their own and potentially sometimes incorporated aspects of the other writing to help. A leader could have commissioned a writing within his own group without ever stealing characters from any other literate society