I have seen the wreck of SS John Grafton on the bottom of the sea. It was a clear day and it was possible to see that there was something on the bottom, waterdeapth only about 4meters on the site. We used to have a summer cottage on an island near the sinking site.
@@exploatores The explosion of the ship was heard in area with radius some 10km from ground zero so it did not take many days for the russians to come and salvage the cargo. There is a book written about this event that I have read.
A Swiss rifle, owned by the French, purchased by the Japanese, given to the Finns, to fight the Russians. I love these sorts of historically cosmopolitan weapons!
Saw an interesting gun turn up in Ukraine. An American Thompson submachine gun, sold to the British, passed to the French, captured by the Germans, captured a second time by the Soviets, then stored in Ukraine for the better part of a century, issued to some poor bastard conscript, captured by the Russians again.
A second shipment of Vetterlies arrived in the summer of 1906, consisting of some 2500 rifles and 1250000 cartridges. The cargo was unloded in just 2 hours 10 minutes time near a small village called PJELAX in western Finland. Most of the cargo was transported further inland, and the shipment was labled "American bacon". A god deal of rifles were also distributed among the locals, and stashed away in anthills, barnroofs and so on. They were used to some extent as hunting rifles well into the 1960s, and some even converted into shotguns. Funny thing is, these rifles are still today known simply as "Graftons" among the general population here, while they never had anything to do with the steamer Grafton.
Mostly because some of the final ones remaining are just sold willy-nilly to random people who will set it on a shelf and never touch it again. They belong in a museum!!!
The sinking ship explained the "tragic boating accident", yes. At first I thought the rifle must be some sort of really bad design that Ian was about to describe as a tragic boating accident.
There was one hidden in the wall board of my grandparents summer house in Jakobstad (swedish for Pietarsaari). I remember older relatives occasionally taking out the so called "Grafton-bössan" (swedish for the Grafton gun) back in the 1970's and telling stories of the sinking and what happened to some of the guns. Some of them were hidden for "future needs" and subsequently were thus also used in the whites against the reds civil war when Finland became independent.
Of the Webley's, according to esteemed collector and gentleman Richard M (who has in his possession the Webley factory archive) in the UK, there is an invoice dated 27 July 1905 regarding the "Grafton" purchase of 2000 Webley Mk4 revolvers and another 500 Webley WGs plus 264000 rounds of .455 ammunition. I am the lucky owner of both a Vetterli (with corresponding spike bayonet) and a 6"-barreled Webley WG (both passed down in my family) 😊
There *must* have been a lot more than 2000 Webley Mk4's on board because every single one that comes on sale in Finland is claimed to be a "Grafton revolver" 😛
I did not know much about this and i live just across the gulf in Umeå! I have heard about the shipwreck but only as a smuggling ship. I did not know it was carrying guns. Another day, another piece of knowledge! Thank you Ian.
Fun fact. The wreck of SS John Grafton is located about 1km from my grandparents summer place (on Fallskäret) where I spent my summers as a kid in the 1970s and early 1980s.
The shipment was originally arranged by Finnish author and activist Konni (Konrad) Zilliacus (1855-1924), who believed that only a collaborative effort of all revolutionary movements in Russia could succeed in overthrowing tha Czar. The period 1899-1905 is known in Finland as "The First Period of Oppression", during which the Czarist government sought to russianize the many ethnic minorities of the realm and also changed many of the unique laws of Finland -- based on the Swedish constitution that was in effect when Russia annexed Finland from Sweden in 1809 -- that Czar Alexander I had sworn to keep in force when Finland became a Grand Duchy in 1809. This naturally caused resentment, though the Finns were divided as to whether they should stick to passive resistance and appeal to legality or resort to active measures. Zilliacus, who was an activist, had lived for a year and a half in Japan (after several years in America) and contacted Japan's military attache in Stockholm, colonel Motojiro Akashi, who arranged the weapons. The activism culminated in 1904 in the assassination of Governor General Nikolai Bobrikov, who had been given dictatorial powers to carry out the russianization of Finland. Zilliacus had to flee Finland in 1909 when the Russians found out about his connections with the Japanese, and he moved to Britain. He returned to Finland after independence.
Рік тому+1
The 1st Period of Oppression was oppression for the Finnish nationalist discourse - Kremlin was concerned by the rise of Germany & the threat to St Petersburg & as for the ordinary ppl, i know from my own family history that ppl in Tampere were mostly concerned bc local democracy did not make the same advances as the general vote did - anyhow, altho studied under prof Osmo Jussila in the 1980s i'd still recommend his bks in English if available - bc his thorough criticism of Fin nationalist history writing re Russia
Рік тому
also, 'russianization' is way off, Moscow was not about to do cultural genocide in 1905 - let's not use today's perspective to learn about the past. The Czars did commit genocides but not in Fin
These are still occasionally fired by conversion to center fire and use cartridges formed from 8x50 lebel or 348 Winchester brass and .427 bullets and charged with black powder. 10.4x38R aka .41 swiss
I have heard the American Indians reloaded rim fire cartridges by cleaning out the case, dampening and grinding up the old strike anywhere matches making a paste out of it. Then stuffing the rim full of the paste letting it dry then reloading as usual. I have heard of a few modern reloaders doing the same thing but they use a drill to fill the rim they put the paste in the cartridge then put the case in a drill like you would a drill bit, turn it on it then flings the slurry/paste into the rim.
@@lambastepirate you can but let me tell you it will produce rust dirt and fouling like you've never seen before . Or you just get .22 Rf priming mix. But the issue is Any old .41 swiss casings you'd possibly find would be very brittle and useless to reload by now. Center fire cases for this on the other hand are very thick even at the neck and tend to last forever
@@lambastepirate some hobbyists use matchhead dust to make “dummy” cartridges for film props and stuff. Theres a channel called Tacome1942 who used to make some crazy paper firearms that fire, albeit with weaker homemade cartridges. really impressive stuff
@@agoogleaccount2861 Doesn't brittle brass respond, as does copper, to annealing? Work hardened copper becomes very brittle unless you periodically heat it to dull red and drop it in water. It then becomes quite malleable. I am sure that nobody in their right mind would go out of their way to try to put to rights cartridges that are over a century old, since the corrosive nature of the primers will surely have pitted them beyond redemption. Even loaded cartridges would be too risky. Since rimfires are balloon heads, would they not be easier to make from new stock than a centerfire?
@@russbilzing5348 not that kind of brittle. It's from the old powder being in contact with the brass the original rimfire ones were very thin It'll become flakes if you tried. 24 ga shotgun shells could also be used to make cases I'm told . I actually think it'd be interesting to try making a plastic casing with metal head from a heat formed plastic shotgun hull with the appropriate sized case head because black powder isn't smokeless ..they'd probably last awhile and could probably be reloaded with a bullet thumb pressed into it ..without a loading machine .
Since I’m originally from the very same part of Finland where this happened (the small muncipality north of Pietarsaari) and albeit a bit before my time, the Grafton Affair is very much known. I’ve heard about the Grafton guns so it is nice to see a video about one. There might have been one in my family but if it was, it was sold many years ago.
There are some pretty dedicated firearms collectors regarding the Grafton because of its early Finnish history. I've also held two Grafton Webley revolvers!
Forgotten Weapons in 2053: "Today we're taking a look at an AK-12, but not an ordinary AK-12. This is one that was part of a joint Russian-Chinese arms shipment during the Second Texas Revolution when Texas seceded from the United States. The ship it was aboard sank in the Gulf of Mexico due to Chinese engineering, but this rifle and thousands of others were recovered when-"
This one is a testament to the local divers’ dedication and the allure of historical artifacts. But it is also unfortunate that the planned revolution never came to fruition. Appreciate that this history is both intriguing and tragic. So thank you for sharing this captivating piece of history with us.
It did come to fruition, but only in 1918. My great-grandfather took part in what eventually came to be called the Finnish Civil War, although my grandparents always referred to it as 'revolution' or 'rebellion'. The story goes that he went to war carrying one of these Vetterlis -- no doubt salvaged from the shipwrecked SS Grafton -- but came back with a Winchester Model 1895, which he had personally liberated from a Russian soldier. We still have it in the family.
Thanks for this. As a Finnish American, I really appreciate the attension to that tiny country's history. (It was during this time period you mention that my great-grandfather immigrated from Finland to the US to avoid being drafted into the Czar's army.)
Don't mean to discredit your great-grandfather's story, but as far as I know, there was no movement to conscript Finns into the Russian army. Finland had no defence force during the Grand Duchy period, which was why most of the nation was so heavily demilitarized when the Civil War came, and why it was so brutal as no one really knew how to fight wars except for a select number of people trained by Russians as officers or troops trained by Germans covertly. Edit: actually there were some plans to incorporate Finns into Russian military as part of the Russification campaign, but for the most part these never came to be in the form proposed. Finns preferred paying large sums of money to the Tsar instead, which became known as the soldier millions paid in exchange of no conscription in Finland. Could be that he emigrated during the proposed conscription period.
@@akustihakonen7928 That's absolutely true. One of the terms of Finland becoming an autonomous grand duchy in 1809 was that Finns were not required to join the Russian military. Some nobility (say, C.G.E. Mannerheim) volunteered to serve the Czar, but in general, Finland was largely a demilitarised buffer region between Russia and Sweden during the 19th C, not entirely unlike Ålands today.
@@akustihakonen7928 Thank you for the history lesson. As with many family tales that have been passed down through generations, this one, too, probably grew in the telling. Thanks again.
The Japanese put out similar feelers for Poles, about 2/3 of whom lived under Russian rule in 1905. The Polish revolutionary Józef Piłsudski reached out to Japanese envoys across Europe when the Russo-Japanese War began, offering to form a Polish Legion to fight for Japan as well as to collect intelligence in Russia for Tokyo in exchange for Japanese support and recognition for Polish independence after the war. Intrigued, the Japanese invited Piłsudski and a Polish delegation to Tokyo via Western Europe and the United States. Piłsudski arrived by ship in Yokohama from Honolulu in July. He offered to provoke uprisings among oppressed non-Russians for the Japanese, setting the Russian Empire aflame. Unfortunately, the Japanese ultimately decided to decline Piłsudski’s offers, though they did send several secret shipments of arms and ammunition to the Poles via diplomatic channels (no clue what kind, but not any significant amount). Though he left Tokyo empty handed, Piłsudski admired Japanese efficiency and discipline, and went home to write a glowing account of the Japanese war effort.
Funny how pretty much all nations that border Russia have a grudge. Maybe if Russia would stop trying to take over its neighbors... well, so much for that.
@@liammeech3702 the most recent thing i can think of with Russo Japanese war mentions is the anime Golden Kamuy, it takes place not long after but the MC and a lot of other characters fought in the war and there are some flashbacks of the events the characters went through. like one flashback is about how devastating machineguns (maxims to be specific) were
I love the way it looks, like a Winchester lever action got adapted for a steampunk movie. The history is great, good reminder that countries try to screw with each other all the time and have been doing it as long as there were countries.
Not coincidental. The Swiss copied the Winchester tube magazine feature as well as the bolt face and anterior of bolt (designed by Winchester lessen problems with black powder fouling). The Swiss opted for a bolt operating system with rotating lugs near middle of bolt rather than the weaker 'knee action' of the M1866 Winchester.
My deepest confession is that I listen to Ian talk about obsolete firearms before bed. One time I dreamed me and him had to uncover the ancient power of 7.65 Longue. As soon as we uncover the primordial 7.65 longue he picks it up, smiles, disappears, and I wake up. What was Ian trying to tell me?
As an aficionado of Swiss rifles, the Vetterli has definitely been on my radar for some time. However, since I started playing Hunt: Showdown, my interest in them has greatly increased and this video has definitely stoked the fires of interest in getting one.
i just restored a Vetterli - Carcano originally made in 1885 will be taking it to the range shortly now that i found some good quality 6.5 carcano ammunition
You've got to admire the Finns. For a small country they punch way above their weight. Rifles and ammunition to beat most other countries production. Some of the best grand prix and rally drivers in the world, top quality textiles etcetera.
My father-in-law found a rifle in the attic of the house he was renovating back in 2005, located around 10km from the final resting place of SS Grafton. Apparently it was a pre-indepencence rifle, very likely recovered from the aforementioned ship. I think it ended up in the museum in town.
Too cool. It's funny how in my youth I considered most Swiss guns as funny looking and odd to end up collecting them now. Absolutely love shooting my Vetterli center fire!
I have heard the American Indians reloaded rim fire cartridges by cleaning out the case, dampening and grinding up the old strike anywhere matches making a paste out of it. Then stuffing the rim full of the paste letting it dry then reloading as usual. I have heard of a few modern reloaders doing the same thing but they use a drill to fill the rim they put the paste in the cartridge then put the case in a drill like you would a drill bit, turn it on it then flings the slurry/paste into the rim.
i can confirm you can reload.22 with strike anywhere matches but its tough tedious work to line the rim with the compound and try to remove old strike, also they had to also have the lead shot
I also have a Vetterli which my father gave me a number of years ago. At the time, the dozen or so rounds of ammo, (.41 Swiss rimfire) were worth more than the rifle itself.
You should visit Vapriikki museum in Tampere. I think there's a permanent display about the Finnish civil war and especially about the battle of Tampere.
Metal detecting fields in Southern Finland near areas that had activity during the Civil War has lead me to find a few empty casings for the Vetterli. Hard to say if they were actually used during the war, or just for fun or hunting..
The Vetterli is so cool looking that I almost bought one about 20 something years ago, but didn't because of the problematic ammo. I'd love for someone to make a replica in .45-70.
Once again, Ian is making Finnish military history known to the whole world. This case of the Grafton might be unknown to majority of us Finns too. For that, Lakki - päästä.
What a lovely fabulous rifle in such pristine condition. I'm afraid to even point at the rifle. I'm scared of it lest I put a fingerprint on it. Great find Ian. I'm scared.
There is not much salt in the Baltic Sea, and especially in the Gulf of Bothnia. The gun was also in the water only a couple of days after the sinking.
Waters at Kvarken area of Baltic sea only have one seventh of the salt content of regular seawater which partly explains it. Only the Major Baltic inflow event that brings fresh salt water from Atlantic once in a decade prevents it from turning into a fresh water lake.
there is nothing quite like cleaning all of your entire gun collection while riding the rolling waves of a large body of water in a tiny boat. sure you have to balance everything very carefully and its so easy for your entire collection to just get lost forever in the drink, but its so relaxing that its worth it.
Imagine being a member of that boat crew and having not one but two dicey smuggling trips followed by going "awww heck" and needing to blow up the boat. Nightmare!
From an Irish revolutionary perspective, for every successful gun running operation (Howth), there is multiple failures (Aud, Marita Ann, Eskund). Finland had its own version of the Aud, such are the similarity of the Grafton with that failed 1916 operation.
I got 3 rounds of 10.4x38 cartridges originated from the grafton wessel. Back in the late eighties/early 90's when i was 8 or 9 years old i found in the attic in the house we lived in 5 rounds of the same calibre that were in mint and shootable shape. Some years later my late father told his kolleauge in the Finnish coast guard of this, and the kolleague was eager to make a trade, because he happened to have one of those salvaged Grafton rifles and with 3 rounds that had been underwater, and therefore the powder had clogged up in them. Got the 3 unshootable rounds + 20 Finnish marks in the trade, and in that time i felt quite satisfied in the deal 😄
I have heard a rumour that a lot of the Mannlicher 1885 trials rifles went to Finland too. Especially the ones converted to carbines. I have found a couple in Sweden.
Yet another interesting story from one of the most knowledgeable folks on the internet. I own a Vetterli which came from my father in law. He got it from his father, there is no more info as to its origin.
The Russo-Japanese War was a very interesting study of the competence of the Russian Navy at the time, who almost turned it into the Russo-Japanese-British War, due to mistaking British fishing vessels in Dogger Bank for an attack by the Imperial Japanese Navy.
An interesting idea for a video would be to show the many places the Swiss Vetterli (and Italian Vetterli for that matter), turned up in world, after Swiss surplused them. Bannerman showed then in catalogue as well as the 1903 Sears catalogue reprint. Pictures of Mexican Revolution, Native Americans, 'sod busters', motorized bandits of the 1920's & '30s, the Finns as you've show, Irish Revolution 1916, and more. Winchester listed this round as available from early 1900's up until about WW2 indicating some demand obviously Fiocchi made a run of the 10.4 Swiss rimfire in late 1950's to mid 1960's boxes occasionally seen at gun shows. Supposedly, someone in Switzerland marketed a kit to convert bolt to centerfire for the centerfire 'version' of round. (Bloke on the Range, was this true?) Supposedly (unconfirmed) a Brazilian company that made .41 rimfire for derringers also did a run of the 10.4 Swiss rimfire in 1970s. The derringer boxes of round still occasionaly also seen at shows, imported by Navy Arms at the time.
I have wondered if there was ever a rifle that used the chamber as a cartridge and then could switch out chambers? I imagine it using a cam lever to hold the chamber/ cartridge tight into the barrel the switching them out for 3 or 4 rapid shots before reloading the chamber/ cartridge. It would have been a short time window for such a thing when metallurgy and machining was pretty good and black powder was still in use. Thanks
I bought one of those some years ago at a show and thought it was pretty cool. However I recall the firing pin was missing from it. I wonder if that was some reason to demob them but they used an impossible rimfire cart. I suppose that there must have been a centerfire conversion so you could form brass and fire them but the cost would have been impractical.
Holy shit no way. My grandpa used to have an old cottage in midwest Sweden. While salvaging old memorabilia from the cottage we took an old vetterli rifle with us, thinking "oh this is probably what some relative used in the winter war". Now I know what it came from!
Aww, when I saw he was at the range, and had ammunition, I thought he was going to shoot it! But I understand why he didn't, as it's very old ammo that might misfire and is very rare/valuable
I have seen the wreck of SS John Grafton on the bottom of the sea. It was a clear day and it was possible to see that there was something on the bottom, waterdeapth only about 4meters on the site. We used to have a summer cottage on an island near the sinking site.
I guess it didn´t take long. before their wasn´t any weapons and amo. on the ship then.
@@exploatores The explosion of the ship was heard in area with radius some 10km from ground zero so it did not take many days for the russians to come and salvage the cargo. There is a book written about this event that I have read.
@@mattimatkalainen I was more thinking about the local population. helping them self to stuff before the govrement got their to check.
@@mattimatkalainen Thank you. I am going to look for the book. 🙂
My grandparent's summer place was on Fallskäret, approx. 1km away from the shipwreck.
A Swiss rifle, owned by the French, purchased by the Japanese, given to the Finns, to fight the Russians.
I love these sorts of historically cosmopolitan weapons!
Saw an interesting gun turn up in Ukraine. An American Thompson submachine gun, sold to the British, passed to the French, captured by the Germans, captured a second time by the Soviets, then stored in Ukraine for the better part of a century, issued to some poor bastard conscript, captured by the Russians again.
`technically: given to Russians to fight Russians :) -at that stage
@@Theduckwebcomics Well, they wouldn't be Russian nationals nor citizens since the Grand Duchy had its own citizenship.
The ship was still British flagged when it was sunk. It was only de-registered retroactively after an inquiry board figured out what happened.
@@Theduckwebcomics Ruotsalaisia emme ole, venäläisiksi emme tahdo tulla
A second shipment of Vetterlies arrived in the summer of 1906, consisting of some 2500 rifles and 1250000 cartridges. The cargo was unloded in just 2 hours 10 minutes time near a small village called PJELAX in western Finland. Most of the cargo was transported further inland, and the shipment was labled "American bacon". A god deal of rifles were also distributed among the locals, and stashed away in anthills, barnroofs and so on. They were used to some extent as hunting rifles well into the 1960s, and some even converted into shotguns. Funny thing is, these rifles are still today known simply as "Graftons" among the general population here, while they never had anything to do with the steamer Grafton.
would love to see a shotgun variant, do you have any links?
My thanks to Ian and his team for keeping obscure history and firearms from disappearing from knowledge.
Mostly because some of the final ones remaining are just sold willy-nilly to random people who will set it on a shelf and never touch it again. They belong in a museum!!!
The Vetterli has had a comeback in awareness because of being featured in a game called "Hunt: Showdown" more recently.
That's what it's all about
@@XhumpersX Vetterli Cyclone
Came for "Tragic Boating Accident"; stayed for the cool bolt action. Glad some of the freedom cargo escaped government seizure.
"Freedom cargo" of pre-ww2 Imperial Japan, one that responsible for genocide of Chinese population.
Right.
I thought it was the Titanic.
The sinking ship explained the "tragic boating accident", yes. At first I thought the rifle must be some sort of really bad design that Ian was about to describe as a tragic boating accident.
There was one hidden in the wall board of my grandparents summer house in Jakobstad (swedish for Pietarsaari). I remember older relatives occasionally taking out the so called "Grafton-bössan" (swedish for the Grafton gun) back in the 1970's and telling stories of the sinking and what happened to some of the guns. Some of them were hidden for "future needs" and subsequently were thus also used in the whites against the reds civil war when Finland became independent.
Indeed, one Vetterli used in the civil war is on display at Vapriikki in the Tampere 1918 exhibit.
Of the Webley's, according to esteemed collector and gentleman Richard M (who has in his possession the Webley factory archive) in the UK, there is an invoice dated 27 July 1905 regarding the "Grafton" purchase of 2000 Webley Mk4 revolvers and another 500 Webley WGs plus 264000 rounds of .455 ammunition.
I am the lucky owner of both a Vetterli (with corresponding spike bayonet) and a 6"-barreled Webley WG (both passed down in my family) 😊
There *must* have been a lot more than 2000 Webley Mk4's on board because every single one that comes on sale in Finland is claimed to be a "Grafton revolver" 😛
@@mottee And every single one of those Webleys also saw the Sex Pistols play at the Free Trade Hall, Manchester, in 1976.
@@AshleyPomeroy huh?
@@liammeech3702 There were less than 50 people there but every man and his punk loving dog claims to have been one of them.
I did not know much about this and i live just across the gulf in Umeå! I have heard about the shipwreck but only as a smuggling ship. I did not know it was carrying guns. Another day, another piece of knowledge! Thank you Ian.
Fun fact. The wreck of SS John Grafton is located about 1km from my grandparents summer place (on Fallskäret) where I spent my summers as a kid in the 1970s and early 1980s.
The shipment was originally arranged by Finnish author and activist Konni (Konrad) Zilliacus (1855-1924), who believed that only a collaborative effort of all revolutionary movements in Russia could succeed in overthrowing tha Czar. The period 1899-1905 is known in Finland as "The First Period of Oppression", during which the Czarist government sought to russianize the many ethnic minorities of the realm and also changed many of the unique laws of Finland -- based on the Swedish constitution that was in effect when Russia annexed Finland from Sweden in 1809 -- that Czar Alexander I had sworn to keep in force when Finland became a Grand Duchy in 1809. This naturally caused resentment, though the Finns were divided as to whether they should stick to passive resistance and appeal to legality or resort to active measures. Zilliacus, who was an activist, had lived for a year and a half in Japan (after several years in America) and contacted Japan's military attache in Stockholm, colonel Motojiro Akashi, who arranged the weapons. The activism culminated in 1904 in the assassination of Governor General Nikolai Bobrikov, who had been given dictatorial powers to carry out the russianization of Finland. Zilliacus had to flee Finland in 1909 when the Russians found out about his connections with the Japanese, and he moved to Britain. He returned to Finland after independence.
The 1st Period of Oppression was oppression for the Finnish nationalist discourse - Kremlin was concerned by the rise of Germany & the threat to St Petersburg & as for the ordinary ppl, i know from my own family history that ppl in Tampere were mostly concerned bc local democracy did not make the same advances as the general vote did - anyhow, altho studied under prof Osmo Jussila in the 1980s i'd still recommend his bks in English if available - bc his thorough criticism of Fin nationalist history writing re Russia
also, 'russianization' is way off, Moscow was not about to do cultural genocide in 1905 - let's not use today's perspective to learn about the past. The Czars did commit genocides but not in Fin
@ Älä nyt kuitenkaan rupea puollustelemaan ryssää.
These are still occasionally fired by conversion to center fire and use cartridges formed from 8x50 lebel or 348 Winchester brass and .427 bullets and charged with black powder. 10.4x38R aka .41 swiss
I have heard the American Indians reloaded rim fire cartridges by cleaning out the case, dampening and grinding up the old strike anywhere matches making a paste out of it. Then stuffing the rim full of the paste letting it dry then reloading as usual. I have heard of a few modern reloaders doing the same thing but they use a drill to fill the rim they put the paste in the cartridge then put the case in a drill like you would a drill bit, turn it on it then flings the slurry/paste into the rim.
@@lambastepirate you can but let me tell you it will produce rust dirt and fouling like you've never seen before . Or you just get .22 Rf priming mix. But the issue is Any old .41 swiss casings you'd possibly find would be very brittle and useless to reload by now. Center fire cases for this on the other hand are very thick even at the neck and tend to last forever
@@lambastepirate some hobbyists use matchhead dust to make “dummy” cartridges for film props and stuff. Theres a channel called Tacome1942 who used to make some crazy paper firearms that fire, albeit with weaker homemade cartridges. really impressive stuff
@@agoogleaccount2861 Doesn't brittle brass respond, as does copper, to annealing? Work hardened copper becomes very brittle unless you periodically heat it to dull red and drop it in water. It then becomes quite malleable. I am sure that nobody in their right mind would go out of their way to try to put to rights cartridges that are over a century old, since the corrosive nature of the primers will surely have pitted them beyond redemption. Even loaded cartridges would be too risky. Since rimfires are balloon heads, would they not be easier to make from new stock than a centerfire?
@@russbilzing5348 not that kind of brittle. It's from the old powder being in contact with the brass the original rimfire ones were very thin It'll become flakes if you tried. 24 ga shotgun shells could also be used to make cases I'm told
. I actually think it'd be interesting to try making a plastic casing with metal head from a heat formed plastic shotgun hull with the appropriate sized case head because black powder isn't smokeless ..they'd probably last awhile and could probably be reloaded with a bullet thumb pressed into it ..without a loading machine .
Since I’m originally from the very same part of Finland where this happened (the small muncipality north of Pietarsaari) and albeit a bit before my time, the Grafton Affair is very much known. I’ve heard about the Grafton guns so it is nice to see a video about one. There might have been one in my family but if it was, it was sold many years ago.
Sidu... bekanta. :D
There are some pretty dedicated firearms collectors regarding the Grafton because of its early Finnish history. I've also held two Grafton Webley revolvers!
Forgotten Weapons in 2053: "Today we're taking a look at an AK-12, but not an ordinary AK-12. This is one that was part of a joint Russian-Chinese arms shipment during the Second Texas Revolution when Texas seceded from the United States. The ship it was aboard sank in the Gulf of Mexico due to Chinese engineering, but this rifle and thousands of others were recovered when-"
Luckily Texas seceding from the union is purely fictional
T-e-x-a-s is a weird way to spell Ukraine
This one is a testament to the local divers’ dedication and the allure of historical artifacts. But it is also unfortunate that the planned revolution never came to fruition. Appreciate that this history is both intriguing and tragic. So thank you for sharing this captivating piece of history with us.
The failed 1905 Russian Revolution is a historical fact. One of my ancestors was involved, but little information survives .
It did come to fruition, but only in 1918. My great-grandfather took part in what eventually came to be called the Finnish Civil War, although my grandparents always referred to it as 'revolution' or 'rebellion'. The story goes that he went to war carrying one of these Vetterlis -- no doubt salvaged from the shipwrecked SS Grafton -- but came back with a Winchester Model 1895, which he had personally liberated from a Russian soldier. We still have it in the family.
@@peabase Ooh, that sounds like a fair trade to me!
Would have been better for Russia if it hadn't come to fruition considering the fact that the communists made trouble for EVERYONE.
@@FabianMacGintyONeill I'm sure my great-granddad would've agreed. He was a keen hunter, so I'm sure he appreciated the more common ammo.
I always enjoy it when Ian takes a deep dive into a topic.
Had to read the headline twice.I live 30 km from where Grafton sunk !
Thank you for shareing our history with the world.
Love the title flavor text. It's like non-obnoxious click bait that's just a inside joke
The "boating accident" part is one. I've often see the two words used whenever there's gun-related ban in California
The furneture on that is beautiful. I have two K98's with similar wood. Great story too! Thanks Ian.
It was in absolutely gorgeous condition when we filmed it
Always nice to learn Finnish history!
Saw one of these hanging up at an old pawn shop for $120 back in 2015. Thanks for the video Ian.
Thanks for this. As a Finnish American, I really appreciate the attension to that tiny country's history. (It was during this time period you mention that my great-grandfather immigrated from Finland to the US to avoid being drafted into the Czar's army.)
Don't mean to discredit your great-grandfather's story, but as far as I know, there was no movement to conscript Finns into the Russian army. Finland had no defence force during the Grand Duchy period, which was why most of the nation was so heavily demilitarized when the Civil War came, and why it was so brutal as no one really knew how to fight wars except for a select number of people trained by Russians as officers or troops trained by Germans covertly.
Edit: actually there were some plans to incorporate Finns into Russian military as part of the Russification campaign, but for the most part these never came to be in the form proposed. Finns preferred paying large sums of money to the Tsar instead, which became known as the soldier millions paid in exchange of no conscription in Finland. Could be that he emigrated during the proposed conscription period.
@@akustihakonen7928 That's absolutely true. One of the terms of Finland becoming an autonomous grand duchy in 1809 was that Finns were not required to join the Russian military. Some nobility (say, C.G.E. Mannerheim) volunteered to serve the Czar, but in general, Finland was largely a demilitarised buffer region between Russia and Sweden during the 19th C, not entirely unlike Ålands today.
@@akustihakonen7928 Thank you for the history lesson. As with many family tales that have been passed down through generations, this one, too, probably grew in the telling. Thanks again.
The Japanese put out similar feelers for Poles, about 2/3 of whom lived under Russian rule in 1905. The Polish revolutionary Józef Piłsudski reached out to Japanese envoys across Europe when the Russo-Japanese War began, offering to form a Polish Legion to fight for Japan as well as to collect intelligence in Russia for Tokyo in exchange for Japanese support and recognition for Polish independence after the war. Intrigued, the Japanese invited Piłsudski and a Polish delegation to Tokyo via Western Europe and the United States. Piłsudski arrived by ship in Yokohama from Honolulu in July. He offered to provoke uprisings among oppressed non-Russians for the Japanese, setting the Russian Empire aflame. Unfortunately, the Japanese ultimately decided to decline Piłsudski’s offers, though they did send several secret shipments of arms and ammunition to the Poles via diplomatic channels (no clue what kind, but not any significant amount). Though he left Tokyo empty handed, Piłsudski admired Japanese efficiency and discipline, and went home to write a glowing account of the Japanese war effort.
The Imperial Japanese had a similar like of the Poles. Seeing them as a cultured warrior people much as they viewed themselves.
The Russo-Jap war definitely isn't used in media enough!
@@adambielen8996 I wonder if they were familiar with the "Winged Hussars"...
Funny how pretty much all nations that border Russia have a grudge. Maybe if Russia would stop trying to take over its neighbors... well, so much for that.
@@liammeech3702 the most recent thing i can think of with Russo Japanese war mentions is the anime Golden Kamuy, it takes place not long after but the MC and a lot of other characters fought in the war and there are some flashbacks of the events the characters went through. like one flashback is about how devastating machineguns (maxims to be specific) were
I love the way it looks, like a Winchester lever action got adapted for a steampunk movie. The history is great, good reminder that countries try to screw with each other all the time and have been doing it as long as there were countries.
Not coincidental. The Swiss copied the Winchester tube magazine feature as well as the bolt face and anterior of bolt (designed by Winchester lessen problems with black powder fouling). The Swiss opted for a bolt operating system with rotating lugs near middle of bolt rather than the weaker 'knee action' of the M1866 Winchester.
Goddamit this is amazing, thanks for the show Ian, I mean, such a rare circunstance and yet there is a video on it, I love this channel
Happy Memorial Day, Ian!
I love the videos that have tons of history in them. This is the best stuff.
Thank you, Ian. Keep up the good work.
Still amazed of this guys knowledge of history. Especially knowledge of our Finnish history is great. Regards to you and to Varusteleka guys.
My deepest confession is that I listen to Ian talk about obsolete firearms before bed. One time I dreamed me and him had to uncover the ancient power of 7.65 Longue. As soon as we uncover the primordial 7.65 longue he picks it up, smiles, disappears, and I wake up. What was Ian trying to tell me?
As an aficionado of Swiss rifles, the Vetterli has definitely been on my radar for some time. However, since I started playing Hunt: Showdown, my interest in them has greatly increased and this video has definitely stoked the fires of interest in getting one.
It's a miracle that the Finns saved this from a tragic boat accident. I hope this rifle reunites with its rightful owners soon.
@@upscaleshackwoosh
@@upscaleshack Russian revolutionaries.
Come to think of it, a very neat idea :P
@@upscaleshack Russian partisans looking to declare their region independent from the government in Moscow. Karelian People's Republic, perhaps?
@@upscaleshack Slightly off topic. I'm wondering if salvage rights took effect. Not a warship and the weapons are surplus.
@@upscaleshack are you sarcastic? Do you seriously think that today's Russia is "Communist"?
Wow what a beautiful story and firearm! I like the hand grip in front of the receiver
i just restored a Vetterli - Carcano originally made in 1885 will be taking it to the range shortly now that i found some good quality 6.5 carcano ammunition
Great video to start the day, have a good one!
Great story. Thanks for all your work.
You've got to admire the Finns. For a small country they punch way above their weight. Rifles and ammunition to beat most other countries production. Some of the best grand prix and rally drivers in the world, top quality textiles etcetera.
My father-in-law found a rifle in the attic of the house he was renovating back in 2005, located around 10km from the final resting place of SS Grafton. Apparently it was a pre-indepencence rifle, very likely recovered from the aforementioned ship. I think it ended up in the museum in town.
Too cool. It's funny how in my youth I considered most Swiss guns as funny looking and odd to end up collecting them now. Absolutely love shooting my Vetterli center fire!
To this day parts of the cargo and ship lie at the bottom of the gulf. So there are still lots of rifles etc still there.
I have heard the American Indians reloaded rim fire cartridges by cleaning out the case, dampening and grinding up the old strike anywhere matches making a paste out of it. Then stuffing the rim full of the paste letting it dry then reloading as usual. I have heard of a few modern reloaders doing the same thing but they use a drill to fill the rim they put the paste in the cartridge then put the case in a drill like you would a drill bit, turn it on it then flings the slurry/paste into the rim.
i can confirm you can reload.22 with strike anywhere matches but its tough tedious work to line the rim with the compound and try to remove old strike, also they had to also have the lead shot
i have been to the location and its cool Ian talking about something local for me :)
No disassembly?? Mechanism looks very interesting with that loading gate
Can you do a dedicated video about the Vetterli Ian? I own one and have been wait for you to a full breakdown on the history and mechanics 😊
I agree Louis. I also own one and would love to see a video about it's history. How about it Ian.
Same
I also have a Vetterli which my father gave me a number of years ago. At the time, the dozen or so rounds of ammo, (.41 Swiss rimfire) were worth more than the rifle itself.
I would go to C&Rsenals youtube channel as they go into the history and mechanics of the Vetterli much deeper than Ian would.
I 19th this! Inherited one from Paw-paw's closet, and know very little about it
That is a great bit of news. My knowledge of Finnish history really starts with the Winter War so this is news to me.
That was great Ian! I love the history in your videos.
Truly a forgotten weapon...... excelent video!
The guns of 1916 Easter Uprising in Ireland had also been singleshot blackpowder rifles.
You should visit Vapriikki museum in Tampere. I think there's a permanent display about the Finnish civil war and especially about the battle of Tampere.
That is an awesome story :) Thank you so much.
thank you for the video
I just saw the stuff you did with Varusteleka guys. As a fin it was extra fun to see
Thank you for your videos!!
Metal detecting fields in Southern Finland near areas that had activity during the Civil War has lead me to find a few empty casings for the Vetterli. Hard to say if they were actually used during the war, or just for fun or hunting..
Thanks for sharing that piece of little known history.
Wow! What a story. Thanks for sharing.
"This was no boating accident," - Richard Dreyfus🤣
The Vetterli is so cool looking that I almost bought one about 20 something years ago, but didn't because of the problematic ammo. I'd love for someone to make a replica in .45-70.
Now that was a cool historical Forgotten Weapons take on this really obsolescent monster of a rifle
Last time I was this early, Finland was still under Swedish reign
1809-1917 Russian occupation
@@454FatJack Also ~1200-1809 Swedish occupation
Once again, Ian is making Finnish military history known to the whole world. This case of the Grafton might be unknown to majority of us Finns too. For that, Lakki - päästä.
the checkering on that almost straight handguard has da drip!
Awesome thanks Ian
What a lovely fabulous rifle in such pristine condition. I'm afraid to even point at the rifle. I'm scared of it lest I put a fingerprint on it. Great find Ian. I'm scared.
This rifle looks to be in excellent condition.
We have one of these at my grandparents' house. Quite a heavy bugger
It's like a Finnish adaptation of an episode of Peaky Blinders.
To have been submerged in salt water ,even briefly and that long ago, it looks like it's in dang good shape. I love the checkering on the fore stock.
There is not much salt in the Baltic Sea, and especially in the Gulf of Bothnia. The gun was also in the water only a couple of days after the sinking.
Waters at Kvarken area of Baltic sea only have one seventh of the salt content of regular seawater which partly explains it. Only the Major Baltic inflow event that brings fresh salt water from Atlantic once in a decade prevents it from turning into a fresh water lake.
@@anttieskelinen1 yeah I guess, I'm not a local, but still a good looking rifle either way.
Was waiting for Ian to shoot it...well..thumbs up for a bullseye presentation.
It goes to the two gun match next, along with one of the webleys or c96s he was talking about. Or maybe the brutality range.
I named my new dog IAN because he is so good at finding things.
This is what happens when you put Pat and Mat in charge of your rebel weapons smuggling operation...
there is nothing quite like cleaning all of your entire gun collection while riding the rolling waves of a large body of water in a tiny boat. sure you have to balance everything very carefully and its so easy for your entire collection to just get lost forever in the drink, but its so relaxing that its worth it.
0:31 "Some unrest"? That was a full blown revolution. Not very successful, however it was pretty big.
"Mostly peaceful protest"
I used .348 brass , a .429 mold and a steel nail to convert them to a 13 shot smoke generator at the range when I want to show off.
I have two Grafton rifles and they were damaged from the explosion. The explosion damaged a lot of rifles and people picked them up afterwards.
Imagine being a member of that boat crew and having not one but two dicey smuggling trips followed by going "awww heck" and needing to blow up the boat. Nightmare!
I laughed so hard when Ian said "so they just blew up the ship" 🤣 I guess that self-destruct feature every sci-fi vessel has is actually necessary
That's really neat, big fan of provenance!
Wow, what a great story behind the rifle.
you had the rifle... at the range... with ammunition. what a tease
I saw the title of the video and my brain read "confetti cannon" 😂
From an Irish revolutionary perspective, for every successful gun running operation (Howth), there is multiple failures (Aud, Marita Ann, Eskund). Finland had its own version of the Aud, such are the similarity of the Grafton with that failed 1916 operation.
I got 3 rounds of 10.4x38 cartridges originated from the grafton wessel.
Back in the late eighties/early 90's when i was 8 or 9 years old i found in the attic in the house we lived in 5 rounds of the same calibre that were in mint and shootable shape.
Some years later my late father told his kolleauge in the Finnish coast guard of this, and the kolleague was eager to make a trade, because he happened to have one of those salvaged Grafton rifles and with 3 rounds that had been underwater, and therefore the powder had clogged up in them.
Got the 3 unshootable rounds + 20 Finnish marks in the trade, and in that time i felt quite satisfied in the deal 😄
I have heard a rumour that a lot of the Mannlicher 1885 trials rifles went to Finland too. Especially the ones converted to carbines. I have found a couple in Sweden.
mine is in beautiful condition, and now converted CF.
Yet another interesting story from one of the most knowledgeable folks on the internet. I own a Vetterli which came from my father in law. He got it from his father, there is no more info as to its origin.
i'd love to know the thought process of the guy who decided blowing up a boat would attract less attention than a grounded boat
The Russo-Japanese War was a very interesting study of the competence of the Russian Navy at the time, who almost turned it into the Russo-Japanese-British War, due to mistaking British fishing vessels in Dogger Bank for an attack by the Imperial Japanese Navy.
An interesting idea for a video would be to show the many places the Swiss Vetterli (and Italian Vetterli for that matter), turned up in world, after Swiss surplused them. Bannerman showed then in catalogue as well as the 1903 Sears catalogue reprint. Pictures of Mexican Revolution, Native Americans, 'sod busters', motorized bandits of the 1920's & '30s, the Finns as you've show, Irish Revolution 1916, and more.
Winchester listed this round as available from early 1900's up until about WW2 indicating some demand obviously
Fiocchi made a run of the 10.4 Swiss rimfire in late 1950's to mid 1960's boxes occasionally seen at gun shows. Supposedly, someone in Switzerland marketed a kit to convert bolt to centerfire for the centerfire 'version' of round. (Bloke on the Range, was this true?) Supposedly (unconfirmed) a Brazilian company that made .41 rimfire for derringers also did a run of the 10.4 Swiss rimfire in 1970s. The derringer boxes of round still occasionaly also seen at shows, imported by Navy Arms at the time.
Love the look of this gun.
What a wonderful tidbit of history. I bet you can still hear the hushed profanity of the sailors on quiet nights in that part of the coast.
When an old bolt action rifle loves a Winchester lever gun very much.
so these are at least a version of what the Vetterli 71 Karabiner from Hunt Showdown is based on.
Neat.
I have wondered if there was ever a rifle that used the chamber as a cartridge and then could switch out chambers? I imagine it using a cam lever to hold the chamber/ cartridge tight into the barrel the switching them out for 3 or 4 rapid shots before reloading the chamber/ cartridge. It would have been a short time window for such a thing when metallurgy and machining was pretty good and black powder was still in use. Thanks
Oddly attractive firearm - thanks ian
These rifles used to sell for under $100 at auction. Price has risen
I bought one of those some years ago at a show and thought it was pretty cool. However I recall the firing pin was missing from it. I wonder if that was some reason to demob them but they used an impossible rimfire cart. I suppose that there must have been a centerfire conversion so you could form brass and fire them but the cost would have been impractical.
Holy shit no way.
My grandpa used to have an old cottage in midwest Sweden. While salvaging old memorabilia from the cottage we took an old vetterli rifle with us, thinking "oh this is probably what some relative used in the winter war".
Now I know what it came from!
Does anybody make repro Vetterlis now in pistol calibers? They look so wild and unique, and it would be neat to have one compatible with modern ammo
Aww, when I saw he was at the range, and had ammunition, I thought he was going to shoot it! But I understand why he didn't, as it's very old ammo that might misfire and is very rare/valuable