Not so unexpected PROBLEMS! Gear pump rebuild Part 1
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- Its time to get the K&T mill coolant system up and running . Looks like its also time to learn how to rebuild a gear pump ;-)Huge thanks to our patreons . They make it all possible. If you would like to make a onetime shop donation or monthly follow the link below to my PayPal
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/ stevesummers
The love for old machinery of Abom79, the soft-spokenness of BlondiHacks, and the youth of Chucke2009. I freakin' love it, man! Keep up the good work!
you may not have the most subscribers but you definitely have the most loyal, that's no easy feat.
I would shoot for .004"-.006" more between the cover and bottom of the bore than the gears are tall. Hopefully they don't have much clearance on the OD or you may have to make oversized gears.
Top ten shop tool wonders of the world! What an amazing machine.
Shapers are the nest looking machines ever!
You do a very admirable job, leaving no stone unturned, which is the way to go, thinking ahead, research also helps.........great work..🍁leif
Hey Steve! Hallelujah!!! 02:07 Someone who remembers how to pour from a non-vented container! Spout at 12 O'clock!
Ken
Another trick for "spill and drip proof pouring" is to start at 12:00 and roll the pail. Rolling will dispense a controlled amount and rolling it back to 12:00 will "shut it off" without a drip.
YES!! If more car owners knew that there would be less engine fires and other contaminates that pollute. That should be tough everywhere on Earth Day every year.
Yep amateurs pour a full pail from the bottom. First time someone showed me the proper way for a no spill pour a few decades ago it was like a light bulb went on.
@@turningpoint6643 I hear that! My Grandpap taught me that when I was 7 years old...63 now. ;
@@kejay74 Then it sounds like your Grandpap was a smart man. Maybe some pails today come with icons showing how to do it, I've not noticed it on any I've used. But it's really surprising just how many don't know that simple little trick that makes it so much easier.
Just came across your channel. I will be taking delivery of a 16" G&E tool room shaper in a couple of months that has been sitting up for a decade and a half, and was looking for other shaper guys. Thanks for the help with using and setting up. I have learned something from every one of your videos I've watched. Time to go through the backlog!
I am following this with great interest. My 1947 3K K&T is in the garage and the cleaning has started.
Seeing all the magic you have exhibited, in past tasks, you will perform as expected.
Long time since I have seen a shaper in use, takes me back to where I started in the machine shop at school. Don't see any schools now with the machine shops we had. Loved watching this, on to part 2
Love that shaper action.
Enjoyed Steve!
ATB, Robin
This is really a very, very good episode; machine work, complex setups, machining work on shaper lathe, grinder. Perhaps some cracking control. Just great. Thank you!
So I have learned. One hour setup and two minutes machining. Thank You for sharing this one.
By the way, I also have some experience on cleaning the coolant tank. It can be horrendous - I actually watched Your video before I cleaned mine. Was well prepared :)
Finno Ugric Machining hour for two sounds a good ratio.😀
I'm digging that carver press which it looks you have modified, simple but effective.
Awsome set up on the lathe. Can`t wait for part 2.
By far my most favorite video yet.
well done mate, looking forward to next week
G’day Steve, it’s coming along nicely. Don’t be tempted to press a shaft from the middle of a housing without support, it could have cracked the pump body, next time use a tube or long socket on the underside.
Cheers
Peter
This is cool that you're rebuilding the pump, it's amazing how much such a little amount of space on the drive and driven gear ends can diminish oil pump pressure and capacity. Will be cool to see you fit the gears to the housing and vice versa. Thanks for sharing this, you make me really want a surface grinder, lol!
You need a surface grinder Everett 😊
so happy i found your channel, love these projects like the pump
Fantastic! You are a very clever guy.
Very interesting video Steve! Cant wait for part 2 :)
Pump cover was dead nuts in the shaper vise. Excellent video
I have a Fluke 83 at home, but my work bought me a Fluke 115 to use at work. It's been a good meter, but the continuity buzzer is way to quiet. If there is any kind of noise going on I find it very hard to hear when I am doing continuity checks. Other than that it's a great low cost Fluke meter. I would suggest spending a little bit of money and getting the TL71 premium test leads, and while you're buying get the Fluke 8845A-EFPT Extended Fine Point Tip Adapter Set. The fine point tips let me get right into the end of some of the cables at work so I don't have to have a piece of wire and alligator clips to check voltages coming out of the cable
Interesting repair job. It always seems like one step forward and then one step back on these old machines that we love.
Basically this is an equivalent to machining cylinder heads and the block deck. The tops and bottoms of the gears could be machined to fit tightly to the new dimensions. Great video. Wish I was a fly on the wall.
Interesting project Steve, appreciate you sharing it with us. all the best.
Steve: I noticed you have your cutter mounted leading the tool holder. A comment Adam Booth received from a viewer (when Adam was learning how to use his shaper) suggested having the cutter trailing the tool holder. That is to prevent the cutter from digging in to the work piece in the event the cutter hits a hard spot in the material or perhaps the far side of the holes in your pump plate.
These machines are giving you a complete hands-on training course in the design and (complete, depot-level) maintenance of old-fashioned manufacturing hardware. If these were a series of university classes and and the repair jobs were final exam tests to pass a class, you could not be given a better set of projects than this. The fact that you are succeeding each and every time is a direct display of your competence and ability to become first in your class... Impressive!
Great work Steven, looking forward to the finale.
That’s an awesome shaper man!
Steve, in case you are not aware of this, I'll let you know that as long as your pump suction is below the oil you don't have to prime the pump as gear pumps are self priming. As a former engineer in the Navy, having served aboard the USS New Jersey (BB-62) I have expert knowledge of all pumps known to man. Also boilers, turbines, valves... you get the idea.
You could use a metal braided shower hose for Your coolant hose. Looks way better than the funky blue hose and is probably more flexible.
I used the concept on my mill and so far it holds. The coolant might attack the silicone hose inside but that is easy enough to replace.
Excellent video as always Steve. Love the shaper work. I have an 8” Logan shaper that I don’t use nearly enough for my taste! Can’t wait for part 2.
Pouring 5 gal of oil...what could go wrong? LOL Used my share of Permatex over the years. - It is so nice to have the machine tools, to repair your machine tools. Should have turned this into a feature length movie. I would have bought a ticket. - That is some great work.
Hey Steve, big thanks for the shout out! I never noticed the resemblance till you pointed it out haha anyway it’s a privilege to have my sticker in your shop. Keep up the great work. Glenn
Hi Steve,
I'm not sure if your past the gear grinding stage I just remember that when I used to overhaul gear drive fuel pumps we had to mach the gear set height to within 0.0002" of each other. of course with oil pumps you could get away with more. Great job on machining the housing!!
The gears were ground within a couple tenths max of one another and I went with .0005" on the gear to housing clearance.
Great to see the set up on how to hold odd shaped objects to machine. Also like the lock on the door. Can't wait to see part 2. Keep up the awesme work.
Good work, Nice to watch..
The pump is coming along well . Glad the stickers made it . Cheers .
Saw you mention below you were concerned about possible pump losses from the worn teeth Steve. It would take plugging and re-boring for the new shaft C/L's, but I'm a big believer in setting gear lash using paper between the teeth. Zig - Zag brand cigarette rolling papers in the light blue package are as close to .001" as you can get. But I suspect after your work to re-set the clearances it will work more than well enough.
Really like this one. Definitely has some "cliffhanger" factor going on. Looking forward to part two!!
Great episode! New bushings and pins would take out the slop in the gears... That is if they're worn bad. You've gone this far. You could even offset them to the outside slightly to tighten up the clearance between the gear and the case, that's probably where most of the bypass leakage is coming from. Just throwing some ideas out there.
Digging the Bad Obsession sticker. Those two are insane and fun to watch.
We need a convention with all these guys...
Pretty sure lot of people would be happy
another binky fan here
Good morning Steve, nice to see you we know it is Saturday now. We ran in the much older days of operating that machine type Water soluble Mobil S-122 if my memory got that one right, so this is different from those times.
Thank you for the thoughts from our past actually enjoyed those machine running production day in a back corner of the milling department.
Brass cover with all those holes was always clean brass so you new it because of the chips building up and the coolant returning to the belly of the base. We will enjoy that great pump being rebuilt by you.
Nice new stickers for your collection, very nice.
Thank you, Lance & Patrick.
Great video Steve. Thanks
When the wife wants to spend time in the shop and help out.. a win for sure! Thanks Steve for sharing!
Awesome job! Looking forward to part 2!
I probably would have rigged an electric primer pump, before I tore into the pump! Great video as usual.
Resurrected again. I remember my grandpa trying a few different coolents on his k&t milky white and strong petroleum smell and one that was mint green detergent smell. the milky white was there the longest. another great show steve glad to see your doing well
Hi from 'cross the Pond, fair play to you Steve for rebuilding the gear type coolant pump, lesser men would have just said t'hell wi' it and just bought a Chinese impeller pump off the net.I worked on a similar K&T to yours back in the early seventies, it had been converted to a vertical with the addition of an Elliott head driven through a Ford Transit gearbox - don't ask! The coolant pump was still the original with the same problem as yours, but someone had alleviated that by drilling and tapping into the top casting, screwing in a length of 1/4" pipe with a tap on the other end. Priming was achieved by starting the machine, opening the tap, squirting in some coolant with a squeezy bottle then closing the tap. Happy days! All the Best from Somerset UK.
I was thinking it could be primed that way ... maybe a check valve with a seperate hand pump .
Wow! Good job on the pump housing. I would not of ever thought of using the lathe.Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to the next one.
Morning Steve! Let me give you a little historical perspective. Back in the 70's I was in the Silent Service and got to take part in a program called "Silent Sub." We did vibration analysis of motors and pumps to make our Subs quieter. If a pump was to noisy, we took to the Tender and the Machinist Mates, MM, would mill out the pump cavity then apply a Devcon product called "Liquid Steel. " After it cured they would mill the cavity to manufacturer's spec. I've seen this product in Mc Master-Carr Catalog. By applying this product you could return the pump cavity to orginal manufacturer's spec. Thus decreasing the work needed on the gears. Any way it's an option to think about. Loved the Shaper action!
I don't know what navy you served in, our Navy, the US Navy, Machinist mates run the main engines, and associated machinery in the engine and now the firerooms on today's steam driven ships. The designation of a machinist that fashions new parts is an MR (machinery repairman)
@@battleshipnewjerseysailor4738 I was going to say...as a retired Chief Machinist Mate I can guarantee we didn't do any machining, that was the MR or Machinery Repairman's job.
Great video Steve, looking forward to part 2.
This is some excellent quality content. Nicely done Steve.
Hi Steve,
Interesting vid, I’m always repairing my old machines, the oldest machine I have in the shop was made in 1927. I can’t afford any new gear and just have to work with what I have, love the shaper! I have a Butler 26” Super Shaper with vertical feed. Love my old machines!! Cheers Rick 😎🇦🇺🍻
After giving this more thought I believe the problem is the shaft seal, that is the only place air can enter to let the oil to drain back. I give you an A for your effort, the pump was pumping enough oil so the wear in the pump was not causing much of a problem. The problem is when it is not pumping, so wear does not factor in except for the shaft seal that is allowing air to enter the system and the pump to loose it's prime. Good luck trying to turn a gear pump into a vacuum pump, you might get lucky though.
Wow, looking forward to part 2 on this one ! my moneys on it workin' :)
Great content on something thats very complex
On thing i would of done is made a spacer to replace the idler gear with an over sized hole to press that pin out to keep the stresses localized instead of the whole case on blocks.
The machining of the bottoms using the lathe was great work 👍🏿
Good repair!
That is some serious engineering! Enjoyed the episode and looking forward to part 2.
Hi Steve, I'm pretty sure that pump never pumped neat oil, in fact other than a broaching machine ( or a deep hole gun drilling machine), I have never seen neat oil used on a machine. On most milling machines you would pump an oil based water amalgamation, so the low pressure you are seeing could be a viscocity issue as well as the wear in the pump. Keep up the good work.
Can't wait for part 2. Might want to look into that check valve flapper as well... leakage there will allow the oil to run back to the sump. Thanks for the video Steve!
The old school sealants are amazing, I have a bottle of the aviation gasket sealant that has to be twenty years old. When I need it it takes channel lock pliers to remove the cap and its still as usable and as messy as when it was new
Best stuff ever!
Can’t wait for Part.2
Nice solution to a difficult machine set up. Looking forward to the completion. 👍👍
Excellent excellent excellent video Steve!! Thanks buddy!!! And no trying to sell everyone things from "sponsors" and all that other BS. Great, as always!!!
Love watching the shaper work. Great vid!
Your enjoyment shows Steve. Love watching these tiddly accuracy set ups. Good job.
Steve,
Mazak loves these gear pumps. They rely almost exclusively on Trochoid brand. The Wonder of these pumps is the simple design, the ability to handle a variety of fluids and viscosities and, when not worn, require no priming and can require "no" suction head. Wear allows drain back to the sump, but new systems often worked without use of check valve. Our Trochoids typically reached failure when the hard part wear allowed input shaft seal failure. By this point, seal replacement was essentially useless. We never found a stateside source for hard parts and Mazak, sourcing the pumps, usually only offered pump/motor unit replacement option. This was often very costly. We limped worn pumps by adding check valves and sometimes adding "self priming" plumbing. Your approach to save this pump by re surfacing flat surfaces is something I never tried.
I was interested in your pump cavity bottom resurfacing using single point turning on the lathe. I would have been too CNC influenced and would have interpolated that resurfacing in a mill.
I was interested in your use of the parallel to set-up the pump housing in the lathe. I would have just indicated the housing surface face via the lathe cross slide. I thought that you did this so didn't introduce cross slide squareness error, but you machined the cavity bottom and trusted the lathe cross slide squareness. If it was an excuse to get the wife's involvement and to keep her close, I applaud the effort. I resort to that cunning, because my wife doesn't like the shop work and I often need to trick her by claiming that I require assistance.
I suppose that you are guessing at ideal pump clearance tolerances. I could only guess too. Flat surface improvement should give pump performance improvement. Can you guess at the tooth involute wear and predict how much this wear affects performance?
All said, this is a great effort, holds promise, but in my world I would have ordered a new pump.
A really interesting solution to the pump rebuild, I learned something today about 4 jaw setup. Thanks for showing us how you did that. Looking forward to fazing 2.
You will have done the gear bores by now but I was thinking of making a plug and grinding / lapping compound in the bore base. Then grinding the gears and pump surface at the same time or seperately to get some clearance, not much needed.
Thanks for the vids
Congratulations on your new Fluke!!! I'm still using my old enough to vote Fluke 77.
Hi Steve the joy of rebuilding a pump O fun. I see you use permatex have an old bottle found in the workshop I have not used in 5 years opened it thinking all dried but no still good goes to show how good it is keep the videos coming.
Holy shit someone that uses the 5gl bucket properly
Hi Steve,
Interesting project.
When you were checking the refacing of the bottom of the pump chamber, you didn't consider any variation in the base of that casting, as you set it up in the lathe dialing in on the top machine face which may not be parallel with the bottom. So your finished surface might be better than you think.
The other thing is the shafts need to be perpendicular to that bottom or the gears could be angled to that base too.
A lot to consider in that project.
I like your shaper, they are such therapeutic machines to watch.
Regards Dennis.
Everything was 1st checked on the surface plate before any machining was done. Top face and the bottom were extremely parallel . The bottom of the pump housing is its original reference surface. Pins, bushings and bores are perpendicular with the bottom. I did my best to keep everything true. I just cant show every step in a video . Would take hours😀
As far as getting the coolant where you need it get you a snap together "line loc" kit. Not that expensive and have lots of attachments for fluid placement. Very creative setup on the housing. That pump looks remarkably like the engine oil pump on my John Deere B tractor. The clearence for the gears was .020. At least that was the gasket thickness anyway. Those gear type pumps are for volume and not so much pressure. That is what the machanic told me because I was worried about low oil pressure. He said viscosity was a factor too so maybe using a thin oil such as your cutting oil could affect pressure? Don't know just an assumption. Good series........
This is a great video, Steve. Your setups, work, and results are amazing! Looking forward to part 2 and to seeing how well the pump works when you get it finished up.
You might want to look into making a brass shim to fit the base of the pump, so that you take up the clearance that way. That at least will provide the needed clearance, and will wear preferentially to the gears, so you might need to make a few and have them as simple change parts.
As to the oil, look for an old hydraulic fluid filter housing and plumb that into the oil feed, at least that will, while not keeping crud out of the pump, which is what killed it, at least will keep the oil clean of microscopic wear particles, overall reducing wear. Another better inline non return valve would also improve things, the pump cannot lose prime if the foot is in oil, and the standing column of oil does not get leaked down, though you would need to put a better seal on the top shaft bushing, as it will otherwise leak in air.
My guess is the new cutting oil has a much lower viscosity that what the pump was designed for. Judging from the flow, the rpm of the pump is on the slow side. I am wondering how much it would effect the cutting oil if you were to add a can of STP to it, I am sure Mobil has a tech line. You might consider asking them.
That oil pump is starting to look good. Your on the right track, I bet it will work fine.
Great work and great plan to refurbish this pump. I can't wait to see part 2.
Great precision work Steve. Really appreciate the setup time this took!
@25:38 I would have had a tube supporting the case just big enough for the pin to fall into. That way you are not risking cracking the casting. It already has a stress crack and may have others not visible.
Looking good Steve. Extra set of hands sure help. Nice job. I have seen a few gear pump that have been resleeved in the bore, a lot of extra work. Hopefully the tip leakage won't be to bad and you can get a small amount of lift.
Yeah, the real wear is in the tips of the gears from chewing bits of metal between the housing and the gears. I'll try it as is but may need to build up the teeth. We will see. Thanks for stopping by Randy👍
Neat. Cant wait for part 2.
"Is that a picture of me?" 😆 made me laugh.
Nice setup on the lathe, Steve. Good work on a good project.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Steve for the videos . I will now pull the gear pump from my KT 2H clean the sump and get back to using neat cutting oil (Shell Garia 68) instead of suds. My next big job is to take the backlash out of the table cross feed lead screw, Have to make some long rods to support the front of the knee. Any suggestions to do this job would be appreciated, Best regards Laurie in Australia
Steve this is my kind of video. Especially decision process to accomplish your goals. Tolerance without interference.
Love the video Steve, all the best for you Elizabeth and the kids. regards Sarah
Great video Steve. The pump style reminds me of the pump in the 502 in my Camaro. I’m wondering if one could be adapted for this application? Then again, we would not be seeing this good work!
This was truly a great video! Thanks a lot for all you do.
Could some of those holes around the circumference of the bushing be causing a loss in pressure/vacuum that is partly keeping the pump from being able to self prime?
Just a thought. Cool video!
i love the shaper
Great setup great vid
Didn't realize you were a project Binky fan!
Yeah😎
I don't know if it's feasible to use brass shim stock as a sacrificial surface on both ends of the gears, the pump body would probably have to be built differently.... Just thinking out loud.
Nice video.