Amen to Tim's tribute to Teryl Givens, identifying him as a successor to Eugene England in the role of exemplar and guide for how to stay loyal to intelect, conscience, and the institutional church--at the same time. It is a straight and narrow path that no one has ever (and probably is not meant to) walked perfectly, but luminaries like Teryl Givens provide a whole generation of millennials the inspiration to try. 54:39
I love it so much when in preface to a comment or question it is suggested that it might be edited out and it is not. That always makes me so happy. We want all the inside scoop! 🙂 Thank you, this was so enjoyable and enlightening (as usual with Terryl)
Thank you for this interview, Terryl & @FaithMattersFoundation! And much gratitude for Eugene England, his family and friends, and all he and they have done for the “2023 Church” and the ‘true and living’ church we are working to restore/create =] “Stretching the heavens, in the sense that … [Eugene England] followed his inclinations in his search for truth and understanding all the way into the margins of orthodoxy and yet without ever compromising his faith.” - Terryl Givens
I agree! As a descendent of a man and his brother who were colleagues with Englands really early years and those who came before them. They worked hard and talked about hard things that was so out of the box some lost memberships in the church. I’m frustrated as to why members fight so hard against me when o suggest these men did help the highest leaders in the church understand the scriptures that were being misinterpreted and publicly pushed back against principles that were hurtful to some and not scriptural or true. There is a group of outspoken content creators put out material out there trying to tear down Faith Matters. I try to point out the things England, Mcmurron, Ivins and others were now in the Gospel Topics Essays!
28 min in Teryl said that we are not being asked to expel lgbtq from our congregations or to exercise prejudice, but why is it OK if it ever happened? The church asked us to campaign against gay marriage? The church itself did things actively against lgbtq and with race and the priesthood. Just because I'm not being asked to participate in polygamy shouldn't mean we ignore what has occurred in the past. I feel like too many reframes and excuses are needed to stay in today. I am glad to hear open conversation though. Thank you for that.
It seems to me to be an inauthentic or insincere claim to purport. Desiring to appear kind and inclusive when the reality and teaching of the church, for these individuals, is anything but. Being an active member in good standing requires an lgbtq individual to accept a life free from romantic loving, physically intimate relationships. Is there anything more dehumanizing, or cruel?
Short answer: The church, like all organizations on earth, is run by imperfect humans. Even though I believe the leaders do continually seek guidance from God, it doesn't mean God always tells any of us the best solution whenever we ask for it. It's clear that in many cases God lets us, including our leaders, try to figure out solutions ourselves. That's how we learn, isn't it? If we can look back and decide some decisions weren't the best, then that actually means we have learned some wisdom since that time. And that the church is progressing. Both good things. There are other Faith Matters episodes that get into the specific questions you raise. I do not mean to discount the past and current pain and suffering of LGBTQ+ and blacks. But in both the cases of LGBTQ+ and blacks, we have to be careful not to judge entirely through a lens of "presentism." The reality is that church and its members are often heavily influenced by the views of society at the time. This doesn't excuse wrong actions, but "wrong" is often seen most clearly in hindsight, and after we have evolved a better view. The church and the gospel actually exists to help us do this, to move beyond incorrect "traditions of the fathers" (D&C 93:39). Has the church overall progressed on these questions? Yes, clearly it has. The church has grown in understanding, empathy, and the ability to love. That's the good news. Let's take the win, even as we all continually try to learn better ways than the past.
@@Allthoseopposed it is not just the LDS church that supports traditional marriage as the Bible teaches. This is an issue for all Christians that accept the Bible as their guide. Indeed the LDS theology frustrates this further with the doctrine of exaltation. We live in a physical FALLEN world that imposes a myriad of afflictions. Navigating this environment in a mortal context may prove to be more difficult for some than others. It appears that the objective of post modern humanists is the doctrine to do as thy will. Is this really what the doctrine of Christ is referring to? I’m wondering if we are approaching this issue in the correct lens. The activism of the LGBTQIA+ is becoming increasingly mean and punitive as these things can when it is lead in a political manner. Love our neighbors!! That is the better doctrine and I believe we would do well to tackle this outside the worlds ways. These are hard things as seems to be the template of Jesus’s doctrine.
Terryl referenced on of England’s essays that was published in the Ensign, “Speaking Truth to Power”. I’ve not been able to find it. Do you know if it was published under a different title, the month or year and where I could find it?
Sinister sister, slick chick, pernicious princess: I don’t believe the Ensign Magazine would publish an article with England’s defiance clearly showcased. It sounds like terrible Terryl’s wishful thinking. Btw, how’s your apostasy going? You appear to sneer in your profile pic, ready to bite the nearest faithful Saint. Too bad you can’t add a grrrrrr sound. Maybe you could sit in a chair in your front yard and bark at passer-by’s, sending chills to Latter-day Saint neighbors.
Some of the issues raised here are so fundamental to Mormonism and it's anchors that still drag us as a church I met Mc Connie and I must say no one is just one thing but narcissism seemed to me to be a characteristic of some of our leadership in the 70's to the 90's I live outside the USA
It's exhausting that believers have to defend the Church for its past and present policies/practices. God is so much more than any religious organization. I say follow your conscience.
I think what cuts through all of this conversation is the law of witnesses and keys of authority. We do ourselves a disservice when we focus too much on what was said by those in the past. That shouldn't be taken as a blanket statement, but our emphasis of following truth is best enhanced by following the Lord's prophet for our day. Also, The conversation on conscience v authority seems to be a slippery slope. I think my generation of the church is over correcting to the side of conscience. Matthew 24 spoke to this as well as Isaiah 30:10. Regardless it is an interesting conversation.
The Savior taught to rely on personal revelation over authority: “Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another. Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive. And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out. It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."- JST Mark 9:42-48
Great episode per usual. Thanks. But Tim! Though I love the hair, I recommend going clean shaven or fully bearded. I'm definetly not a fan of the pornstar look.
Another great episode. One of the best. How did I ever manage without Faith Matters?
Amen to Tim's tribute to Teryl Givens, identifying him as a successor to Eugene England in the role of exemplar and guide for how to stay loyal to intelect, conscience, and the institutional church--at the same time. It is a straight and narrow path that no one has ever (and probably is not meant to) walked perfectly, but luminaries like Teryl Givens provide a whole generation of millennials the inspiration to try. 54:39
What a great video! Thank you for publishing this!
I love it so much when in preface to a comment or question it is suggested that it might be edited out and it is not. That always makes me so happy. We want all the inside scoop! 🙂 Thank you, this was so enjoyable and enlightening (as usual with Terryl)
Thank you for this interview, Terryl & @FaithMattersFoundation!
And much gratitude for Eugene England, his family and friends, and all he and they have done for the “2023 Church” and the ‘true and living’ church we are working to restore/create =]
“Stretching the heavens, in the sense that … [Eugene England] followed his inclinations in his search for truth and understanding all the way into the margins of orthodoxy and yet without ever compromising his faith.” - Terryl Givens
I agree! As a descendent of a man and his brother who were colleagues with Englands really early years and those who came before them. They worked hard and talked about hard things that was so out of the box some lost memberships in the church.
I’m frustrated as to why members fight so hard against me when o suggest these men did help the highest leaders in the church understand the scriptures that were being misinterpreted and publicly pushed back against principles that were hurtful to some and not scriptural or true.
There is a group of outspoken content creators put out material out there trying to tear down Faith Matters. I try to point out the things England, Mcmurron, Ivins and others were now in the Gospel Topics Essays!
28 min in Teryl said that we are not being asked to expel lgbtq from our congregations or to exercise prejudice, but why is it OK if it ever happened? The church asked us to campaign against gay marriage? The church itself did things actively against lgbtq and with race and the priesthood. Just because I'm not being asked to participate in polygamy shouldn't mean we ignore what has occurred in the past. I feel like too many reframes and excuses are needed to stay in today. I am glad to hear open conversation though. Thank you for that.
It seems to me to be an inauthentic or insincere claim to purport. Desiring to appear kind and inclusive when the reality and teaching of the church, for these individuals, is anything but. Being an active member in good standing requires an lgbtq individual to accept a life free from romantic loving, physically intimate relationships. Is there anything more dehumanizing, or cruel?
Short answer: The church, like all organizations on earth, is run by imperfect humans.
Even though I believe the leaders do continually seek guidance from God, it doesn't mean God always tells any of us the best solution whenever we ask for it. It's clear that in many cases God lets us, including our leaders, try to figure out solutions ourselves. That's how we learn, isn't it?
If we can look back and decide some decisions weren't the best, then that actually means we have learned some wisdom since that time. And that the church is progressing. Both good things.
There are other Faith Matters episodes that get into the specific questions you raise.
I do not mean to discount the past and current pain and suffering of LGBTQ+ and blacks. But in both the cases of LGBTQ+ and blacks, we have to be careful not to judge entirely through a lens of "presentism." The reality is that church and its members are often heavily influenced by the views of society at the time.
This doesn't excuse wrong actions, but "wrong" is often seen most clearly in hindsight, and after we have evolved a better view. The church and the gospel actually exists to help us do this, to move beyond incorrect "traditions of the fathers" (D&C 93:39).
Has the church overall progressed on these questions? Yes, clearly it has. The church has grown in understanding, empathy, and the ability to love. That's the good news. Let's take the win, even as we all continually try to learn better ways than the past.
@@Allthoseopposed it is not just the LDS church that supports traditional marriage as the Bible teaches. This is an issue for all Christians that accept the Bible as their guide. Indeed the LDS theology frustrates this further with the doctrine of exaltation. We live in a physical FALLEN world that imposes a myriad of afflictions. Navigating this environment in a mortal context may prove to be more difficult for some than others. It appears that the objective of post modern humanists is the doctrine to do as thy will. Is this really what the doctrine of Christ is referring to? I’m wondering if we are approaching this issue in the correct lens. The activism of the LGBTQIA+ is becoming increasingly mean and punitive as these things can when it is lead in a political manner. Love our neighbors!! That is the better doctrine and I believe we would do well to tackle this outside the worlds ways. These are hard things as seems to be the template of Jesus’s doctrine.
Terryl referenced on of England’s essays that was published in the Ensign, “Speaking Truth to Power”. I’ve not been able to find it. Do you know if it was published under a different title, the month or year and where I could find it?
Sinister sister, slick chick, pernicious princess: I don’t believe the Ensign Magazine would publish an article with England’s defiance clearly showcased. It sounds like terrible Terryl’s wishful thinking.
Btw, how’s your apostasy going? You appear to sneer in your profile pic, ready to bite the nearest faithful Saint. Too bad you can’t add a grrrrrr sound. Maybe you could sit in a chair in your front yard and bark at passer-by’s, sending chills to Latter-day Saint neighbors.
Speaking the Truth in Love”
By Eugene England Ensign April 1976
Some of the issues raised here are so fundamental to Mormonism and it's anchors that still drag us as a church
I met Mc Connie and I must say no one is just one thing but narcissism seemed to me to be a characteristic of some of our leadership in the 70's to the 90's
I live outside the USA
It's exhausting that believers have to defend the Church for its past and present policies/practices. God is so much more than any religious organization. I say follow your conscience.
I think what cuts through all of this conversation is the law of witnesses and keys of authority. We do ourselves a disservice when we focus too much on what was said by those in the past. That shouldn't be taken as a blanket statement, but our emphasis of following truth is best enhanced by following the Lord's prophet for our day.
Also,
The conversation on conscience v authority seems to be a slippery slope. I think my generation of the church is over correcting to the side of conscience. Matthew 24 spoke to this as well as Isaiah 30:10.
Regardless it is an interesting conversation.
The Savior taught to rely on personal revelation over authority:
“Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.
It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God, with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."- JST Mark 9:42-48
Great episode per usual. Thanks. But Tim! Though I love the hair, I recommend going clean shaven or fully bearded. I'm definetly not a fan of the pornstar look.
Doctrine is what Christ taught in the Book of Mormon. Isn't it?
McConkie was a rigid person. He did not "stretch the Heavens " in his mind and spirit.