Stretching the Heavens is a well written and wonderfully insightful book. I’m glad Eugene was the pioneer he was and his contemporary colleagues she friends should get much more credit for the work they did.
I listened to both Givens speak openly at a private cottage meeting in San Francisco in 2015 and Fiona absolutely had doctrinal insights. She excitedly taught what she was learning and how it fit into LDS doctrine and proclaimed "She's coming back", meaning Mother was coming back into the mainstream teachings. You can't come back unless you were already there. My point is that the Givens say one thing behind closed doors and another when they are being recorded. But frankly, who cares? In a church that claims 15 Seers, why aren't the Seers explaining these things? Why do they speak through press releases and handbook updates? Why do God's mouthpieces need spokespeople and apologists at all?
You can believe anything you want as a member in good standing. It is promoting it against the stated doctrines of the Church that get you into trouble.
The idea of this channel is to learn about other people's theology, without feeling the need to defend one's own theology as the "one and only truth." I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but it does not seem to be in the spirit of learning, but in the spirit of superiority and those types of comments are not welcome here.
I think you can look at the politics in New York of enlightenment that Joseph Smith espoused in terms of feminism and the like. This is where Women’s Suffrage got started after all they were influenced by the Dutch and their tolerance. When you consider that background with Brigham Young where there was a strong Quaker and Baptist influence in Pennsylvania and that of the Grants and their flavor of Mormonism. I think we saw this played out with Brigham Young clashing with Emma Smith after JS death and his walking back of Women’s rights and power in early church history. I see this still happening in the Church’s beliefs and treatment of women especially
The reason we don't talk about a "Mother in Heaven" is because it is "Mothers in heaven". God did not create billions of kids with just one wife. That doctrine was revealed back in Joseph's day with plural marriage. When you boil down the LDS doctrine the whole purpose of being is to create kids and perfect them to become Gods so they can create kids. The only purpose of the universe to to populate worlds with kids. Amen😅
I’m a Catholic thinking of writing a paper on how Joseph clearly identified the emptiness and chaos of the second great awakening in what was basically a pre-Catholic America - and so he sort of tries imitate it but with masonry and eventually a blasphemous misunderstanding of Deification/Theosis (after he finally gave up on trying to understand the Triune God!) The Reformed Protestant approach to Mormons can be helpful in terms of poking holes in LDS thinking, but that’s not a profound achievement. To be clear - the “different God, different Gospel, false prophet” points are the ultimate point - and good to start with to make clear the conversation is not and cannot be intramural, but the protestant tends to fall back on the circular reasoning of the anti-biblical doctrine of sola Scriptura and sophomoric presupposition which speaks no more to the mind of a Mormon than it does to an atheist. My hope is that as Mormonism fades, Mormons will give the Jesus of History and Chance and take a look at the Church he founded. We have and priesthood - but it’s real! Because God’s doesn’t change his mind!
Terryl Givens is a gentleman, gifted speaker and scholar. Thanks for your insights that are unbiased and so helpful for so many people.
Thanks for the nice note!
Stretching the Heavens is a well written and wonderfully insightful book. I’m glad Eugene was the pioneer he was and his contemporary colleagues she friends should get much more credit for the work they did.
Gods grace is only those things we can’t do for ourself
I listened to both Givens speak openly at a private cottage meeting in San Francisco in 2015 and Fiona absolutely had doctrinal insights. She excitedly taught what she was learning and how it fit into LDS doctrine and proclaimed "She's coming back", meaning Mother was coming back into the mainstream teachings. You can't come back unless you were already there. My point is that the Givens say one thing behind closed doors and another when they are being recorded. But frankly, who cares? In a church that claims 15 Seers, why aren't the Seers explaining these things? Why do they speak through press releases and handbook updates? Why do God's mouthpieces need spokespeople and apologists at all?
You can believe anything you want as a member in good standing. It is promoting it against the stated doctrines of the Church that get you into trouble.
The idea of this channel is to learn about other people's theology, without feeling the need to defend one's own theology as the "one and only truth." I'm not sure where this comment comes from, but it does not seem to be in the spirit of learning, but in the spirit of superiority and those types of comments are not welcome here.
I think you can look at the politics in New York of enlightenment that Joseph Smith espoused in terms of feminism and the like. This is where Women’s Suffrage got started after all they were influenced by the Dutch and their tolerance. When you consider that background with Brigham Young where there was a strong Quaker and Baptist influence in Pennsylvania and that of the Grants and their flavor of Mormonism. I think we saw this played out with Brigham Young clashing with Emma Smith after JS death and his walking back of Women’s rights and power in early church history. I see this still happening in the Church’s beliefs and treatment of women especially
Salvation is different than exaltation
The reason we don't talk about a "Mother in Heaven" is because it is "Mothers in heaven".
God did not create billions of kids with just one wife. That doctrine was revealed back in Joseph's day with plural marriage.
When you boil down the LDS doctrine the whole purpose of being is to create kids and perfect them to become Gods so they can create kids. The only purpose of the universe to to populate worlds with kids.
Amen😅
Ugh
I’m a Catholic thinking of writing a paper on how Joseph clearly identified the emptiness and chaos of the second great awakening in what was basically a pre-Catholic America - and so he sort of tries imitate it but with masonry and eventually a blasphemous misunderstanding of Deification/Theosis (after he finally gave up on trying to understand the Triune God!) The Reformed Protestant approach to Mormons can be helpful in terms of poking holes in LDS thinking, but that’s not a profound achievement. To be clear - the “different God, different Gospel, false prophet” points are the ultimate point - and good to start with to make clear the conversation is not and cannot be intramural, but the protestant tends to fall back on the circular reasoning of the anti-biblical doctrine of sola Scriptura and sophomoric presupposition which speaks no more to the mind of a Mormon than it does to an atheist. My hope is that as Mormonism fades, Mormons will give the Jesus of History and Chance and take a look at the Church he founded. We have and priesthood - but it’s real! Because God’s doesn’t change his mind!