The golden age of epic fantasy is NOT over.
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- Опубліковано 24 чер 2024
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00:00 | Intro
01:41 | Claim Number 1
02:30 | Claim Number 2
03:45 | Claim Number 3
04:18 | Claim Number 4
04:58 | Claim Number 5
06:03 | Claim Number 6
07:07 | Claim Number 7
07:57 | Claim Number 8
#fantasybooks #bookreview #bestbooks #fantasybooks #booktube #booktuber #books #bookstagram #bookworm #booklover #booknerd #bookish #book #reading #read #booktubers - Розваги
Personally believe the golden age of fantasy is just getting started. Mostly because I heard a kid last week say his superpower was spaghetti and I really think that has same game changing potential for the genre in a few years.
Whew, that's a relief. My kid announced yesterday at his kindergarten graduation he is going to be a Pokemon trainer when he grows up, so I was a bit worried anime was poised to takeover!
Okay, Daniel. But what’s your actual contribution/take on the topic?
@@MattsFantasyBookReviewsoh I’d bet the future of fantasy will be far more manga and anime heavy in the near future.
@@no_problem8023hmm. I’d say we’re 100% in a golden age. The only question is how much better could it possible get from here? We have all the classic to read and more people, cultures, and ideas are influencing what fantasy can be every day. The publishing playfield is more even than ever and I can’t wait to see how epic fantasy can grow as the full scope of the genre does. I’d make the case many of these insanely long ongoing online only fantasy stories are certainly a whole new type of epic to take in.
@@MattsFantasyBookReviewsAnime and Manga are a fantasy.
It's different format. You can be ProBook but it is same attitude as 'fantasy is not literature'.
Late to the discussion but just wanted to make one comment in relation to 9:53 - there have always been many, many women reading and writing speculative fiction, and epic fantasy in particular. What's happened is the vagaries of traditional publishing failed them. Most of their books fell out of print and as a result, their works weren't stocked in bookstores which meant nobody read them, which meant the general reading public forgot about them.
Janny Wurts wrote an EXCELLENT comment on r/fantasy explaining the "book store death spiral" phenomenon (including sharing her experience of going through it) and in the same thread, listed many of these incredible women authors, which I'll quote from as I'm not sure if UA-cam will allow links in the comments:
---- u/JannyWurts wrote: ----
Women authors were writing adult fantasy and were in fact far less discriminated than they are today. Even from the pulp era, they have virtually been erased.
I was there; I read heavily in that time period, and published my debut in 1981. McCaffrey was in fact the first ever to make the times best seller list with Moreta. Tanith Lee and Ursula LeGun were everywhere. Julian May, Ellen Kushner, R. A. MacAvoy, Sheri Tepper, C J Cherryh, CL Moore, Jane Gaskell's Atlan, Janet Morris, likely Judith Tarr, Tanya Huff at the borderline, late 80s/1990, Andre Norton, whose name was as prevalent as Asimov or Heinlein ever were, virtually erased from history. Jennifer Roberson's entire Cheysuli series, Megan Lindholm (aka Robin Hobb! for gosh sake) did Limbreth Gate trilogy then, Diane Duane's Door into Fire, some of the earlier LGBQT fiction in fantasy, R. M. Meluch's remarkable Jerusalem Fire, Ru Emerson, Emma Bull, Elizabeth Moon, Kate Elliott (and I've edited to add, her original byline for Curse of Sagamore was Alis Rassmussen), though she wrote under a different byline then, Vonda MacIntyre, Diana Paxon, Elizabeth Lynn - many of them award winners, top of their field.
And this is a list I compiled without EVEN TRYING!
The saddest part of this story: Most of these authors are still alive, and still writing - many - far too many - were forced to change their bylines to something else due to emerging prejudice and algorithm suppression creating the bookstore death spiral....Edgerton, Hobb, Tarr, Eliott are likely the most notable forced to switch byline and this is still happening (Carol Berg/Cate Glass). So even loyal readers lost track of them. Worst, some died in utter obscurity, within the past few years.
Notable for younger readers then were Nancy Springer (of today's Enola Holmes fame, still writing), Joy Chant/Red Moon, Black Mountain, very Narnia inspired) Jane Yolen.
Yes, some women wrote SF - CJ Cherryh being the best known of these - but she also wrote phenominal fantasy - brilliant stuff - now suppressed for gosh knows why.
WOMEN DO NOT ALWAYS WRITE FOR CHILDREN! Nor do they fare any better writing SF, in the past few decades. Check out Sarah Zettel's brilliance as a SF writer, you will be astonished at the quality of her work - try Quiet Invasion, a stunning standalone, and yes, she also writes fantasy, but her fantasy came later then a string of strong SF titles.
Many of these women were published as original paperbacks; it was rare to get a start in hardbound, one had to work up to that.
Wow! I've only *heard of* a handful of these authors, and I've been reading fantasy and sci-fi my whole life! It makes me want to look them all up and find their books! (Not that I need to add anything to my TBR list! 😂)
Thank you for creating this video! While I don’t fully agree with all your points, I appreciate the thoughtful discussion and it is good to have another viewpoint highlighted! If I could revisit my video, I would certainly flesh out some of my arguments, especially regarding my stance on romantasy. I agree that the rise of romantasy is generally beneficial for the publishing industry, even though it’s not a genre I personally read. If it’s okay with you, I’d love to do a follow-up video to highlight some of the points you made. Thanks again!
Absolutely, have at it! 👍
That romantasy readers transition to classic epic fantasy books is so true in my opinion. I for example started reading fantasy with Harry Potter and the Shadowhunter series by Cassandra Clare got me back into reading. I know that many many people don’t like the books but they are a comfort fantasy series for me. And now I read Brandon Sanderson, John Gwynne etc. I enjoy both romantasy and epic fantasy. When I get tired of the big epic fantasy series’s I tend to read a lighter romantasy for a change. And there is nothing wrong about that. A reader should read whatever they enjoy wether it is epic fantasy’s or romantasy. Let’s just enjoy reading in general
I am not sure.
In France at the end of 2000's, publishers have released ton of paranormal romance. But it was not the Trojan horse dreamed. On the contrary, it's the romance who was developped itself. And young adult fans has'nt go to adult fantasy. Publishers create new adult more based on the personal relationships than speculative elements.
But new adult readers begin to read adult fantasy when they are 35.
The thing is, from my own personal experience I do not believe that Romantasy is bringing in new readers to fantasy. Much to the contrary, in fact. I know a LOT of readers and am very active in online reading communities and it is extremely evident that Romantasy is not bringing new readers to fantasy. So as much as I love Matt’s channel, I have to hard disagree with him on this one as the evidence paints a very different image than his suppositions
@@DrunkenGyarados I agree with you. The trojan horse of epic fantasy is webnovel. You have the the luck in the US with few webnovel service. In France webnovel doesn't work. I don't know why.
I watched one of those videos, and one of the claims was that traditional publishers don't buy epic fantasy anymore, and that got me curious, so I looked at the current catalog of the big SFF publishers, Tor, Orbit, Harper Voyager, Del Rey, etc... And found something like 25 epic fantasy series with volumes published so far this year. And that didn't include reissues of older series. Of which there were a lot. And I can't emphasize enough, **so far this year**. That was in April.
Thank you for this video, Matt! I actually agree with some of your points and disagree with a few. I never said short epic fantasy books could not be good. However, I do disagree with author's vision and intent to write a big epic fantasy being limited. Which is happening now. And I did say epic fantasy is declining in traditional publishing. But NOT in self-publishing. The Bound and the Broken, Cradle, Sword of Kaigen, many more. Epic fantasy is actually THRIVING in self-published fantasy. And that's good! But anyway, it's good to have an opposite and more positive light to this. It is actually pretty good that romantasy and cozy fantasy is bringing in new readers to the genre. As I also said. But I hope this is not in exchange of sacrificing epic fantasy in trad pub. Something many authors have told me as well. I have no doubt epic fantasy from a new author will be back in power eventually, though. But not now. Everything always moves in a cycle in traditional publishing. :)
(That thumbnail though. Hahaha! So similar to mine)😂
Yeah, to be fair not all of those were your arguments. I pulled from all the videos so a lot were from other videos.
I still though would say that traditional publishing is pumping out some bangers, and that the move for smaller books is a sign of a temporary paper shortage, not a long term trend.
Thanks for commenting!
@@MattsFantasyBookReviews Oh absolutely. The thing is, and this is my reasoning, the many epic fantasy bangers are not from debut trad pub fantasy authors. They are from well-established authors such as The Will of the Many by James Islington (god I love that book). There are a few exceptions of course! It's not a blanket statement. And there's no doubt paper shortage played a part in this. Peter McLean mentioned this, too. So here is hoping epic fantasy in trad pub will return strongly soon! :)
Props to you, Petrik, always healthy to be open for conversation. I think I'm more aligned with your points, especially since Ryan Cahill and Christopher Ruocchio have echoed the same complaints. A lot of authors have been forced to work around limited word counts, and made to add content that appeals to booktok, etc.
It's clear trad pub isn't looking for a Tad Williams or Robin Hobb right now, and that's sad.
@@PetrikLeo Yeah, I think that's true about the "bangers" right now in trad pub are from some established authors. But I would also say that it's rare for an author to have a smash hit as their first book, it often takes a little while for them to get the experience needed to get to that level. There are very likely trad. pub authors pushing out books right now, that in a few years will be a huge success.
From one grumpy old man to another, I appreciate these video essays and will always be happy to see more
I love the poli sci view on this, as a poli sci major who used to work in politics. I saw this trend and immediately shook my head 😂 I personally am reminded of progress leading to backlash. In this case, I believe that the growth of fantasy romance (and maybe even cozy fantasy) is causing a certain fantasy audience 👀 to feel a bit jelly and resentful. I read both genres, and I just am glad people r reading more. But I’ll say I don’t think the bashing of a subgenre as “less than” is a cute look. It’s not going to, shall we say, “take the jobs” of the epic fantasy genre 🙄
Well said! I fully agree there is a huge level of jealously going on.
Claim 1, until fairly recently debut authors don't get multi book epic fantasy deals - the reality is they DO get multi book deals. This was the norm over the last 10 years, less so perhaps since the pandemic but it does still happen fairly often with the Big 5 publishers that want fantasy. This happened to me at Orbit in 2015, but here's a bunch of others that have since then at many publishers been given a trilogy or longer, Anna Stephens, David Wragg, RJ Barker, John Gwynne, Jonathan French (via SPFBO), Justin Lee Anderson (again sbpfo and 4 books series), Gareth Hanrehan, Joe Abercrombie, Hannah Kaner, Ed McDonald, Anthony Ryan, Bradley Beaulieu (although he got 7 books), Jen Williams, Peter Newman, Den Patrick, Alexander Darwin, and right up to the present, James Logan….the list goes on and on.
Wow great take, thanks so much for chiming in Stephen!
I've seen more people reading now then ever. I don't know if they are reading epic fantasy but the fact that I see more people reading now is a good thing for every genre, including epic fantasy. A book themed bar/cafe just opened up near me and it's awesome. Indie and self published authors are gaining more and more steam and I'm all here for it. Of War and Ruin releasing last year proves its not dying. That books gonna be remembered as a classic in the genre I'm confident in that.
Thank you for this video as you have made most of the points I have thought about (and made to friends on Discord) after watching some of the "epic fantasy is dying" videos - and a few more besides. I particularly appreciate you pointing out that epic fantasy can be short, and that romantasy is a positive addition to fantasy not a negative one
This was a much needed video. It makes me feel better that the golden age of Epic fantasy is not over. I was seriously upset because of the narrative that publishers were giving up on Epic Fantasy for romantasy or cozy fantasy which I am not the greatest fan of. Great Video!!
This was the best video I've seen on this concept so far!! You said so many thoughts that have echoed in my brain on this concept !! As someone who reads both romantasy and epic fantasy SO MANY romantasy are 5+ book series with intense world building and plot. So appreciate that you recognized this.
Amazing video
Thanks Cassidy!
If anything big publishing is "dying" or a better way of putting it, forced to adjust/change their business model, the same is happening in video games. Thank God for Self publishing or Indie publishers and the fact that it's so much easier to use those avenues. The the thing us readers should make sure doesn't happen is the death of reading for fun, which is a small percentage of the population, so keep recommending, reading to your children, and spreading the gospel. Cheers Matt, great video!
Wonderful and well thought out video. Take all these points and counter points and the "truth" is probably somewhere in the middle. Markets change based on many different factors that are hard to evaluate in a vacuum.
I do think that your best point is that more readers picking up fantasy and even fantasy tangental books is good for everyone. It is not a zero sum game. Readers get older. Readers tastes change. Some will move to epic fantasy and that is a great thing.
I think most of your points are incorrect or side step the issue. I can't respond to everything so I'll just make a few comments:
1) People who say epic fantasy is dying are obviously using the term "epic fantasy" in a narrow way to refer to traditionally published series with large page counts, lots of books and "classic" elements. Saying romantasy is epic fantasy, or small books can also be epic fantasy is just talking at cross purposes. In addition, the increase in self-published epic fantasy is a symptom of these types of books being forced out of the trad market so it underscores the whole issue.
2) You said word counts constraints don't matter because the supply chain issues driving it are temporary. No one I speak to in the publishing industry believes that paper costs are going to come down. The mills and printers and binderies that have shut down or moved to other industries are not coming back. It's simply not profitable and requires too much capital investment. The current supply chain situation is long term so these word count constraints can't be brushed off as temporary.
3) You touched on the underlying truth near the end of the video that romantasy is bringing lots of female readers into the fantasy genre but don't engage with the implications. This is obviously good for the genre overall but it is a *structural* change in the readership not a trend which means the different preferences this new demographic has will change the genre. There is no evidence that new romantasy readers are going to transition to classic epic fantasy in any meaningful numbers. This assumption is premised on the idea that these new fantasy readers are the same as previous new fantasy readers when actually they're an entirely new demographic of people who are mainly coming from YA and the romance genre. They have firm tastes that publishers will cater to and that'll drive the readers of epic fantasy further into self-pub which is a trend you can already see. This effect is self-reinforcing as the readership of trad published fantasy and self-published fantasy bifurcates along gender lines and I struggle to see how it unwinds.
The entire economy is undergoing long-term and some irrevocable changes. Much agreed on the paper.
It is not necessarily good for the genre overall as it can just as well shift the entire 'genre' towards that particular subgenre. On account of that firmness of interest, there is a strong argument that those two are distinct genres, or subgenres with relatively low overlap in appeal and audience. That makes it very easy for it to drown out what other people have meant by epic fantasy and it is entirely possible that the niche will shrink for opportunity costs. There are also the psychological and sociological effects of a dearth of such literature to consider, especially if it drowns out alternatives by sheer volume.
So glad you made this. I am not even fully aware of the publishing industry but 30 minutes of research and all of the points being made are refuted pretty easily.
Huge credit to your point about celebrating trends like romantasy and YA as it celebrates women authors and sheds light on fantasy as a whole. The gatekeeping is not good for the community.
Not that I would want this to happen, but the truth is even if new epic fantasy stopped being published tomorrow, and only ongoing series were finished, no one would ever be able to read it all anyway, I’ve only gotten back into reading the last 2/3 years, and I love booktube, and as a result my TBR on Goodreads is over 400 books, and that’s mainly only 1st books in a series and standalone.
Anyway, great video, I really enjoyed the 🔥
I'm happy you made this video, it was in dire need! Thank you, Matt! 😊💙📚
Couldn’t agree more with you! I read Sarah j Maas for the first time last year and really liked it. Wanted more fantasy elements and now I love John Gwynne, Brandon Sanderson, Pierce Brown, Joe Abercrombie and Robin Hobb.
This is such a good video! I have been seeing all the videos you mentioned and thinking to myself. What are they talking about? I’m glad you did all this research and made some great points! I was thinking maybe those people had just read a lot of the epics and are craving new stories but you’re right we are still seeing tons of new epics!
I’ve been following you a long time Matt and this, IMO, was one of the most cogent and well-thought out arguments I’ve ever seen you post on any topic. Very well done!
Thanks so much! It's my first time doing a video like this.
Hey, Matt. Peter Flannery here. Another excellent video! And I hope you are right! :) Very pleased to hear that both you and @PetrikLeo sound positive about self-published Epic Fantasy! Selfishly hoping that this trend continues! 😉⚔
Epic fantasy in self-publishing is powerful, Peter. It has been that way for the past 7 years and it keeps rising. Super awesome! 😊
I love this take! Trad publishing is a business and all businesses increase production of best selling trends. But it’s the best selling trends (which may be romantasy right now) that help to fund other books and genres to be published. So we need those trendy books! I’m happy with the trad publishing epic fantasy world. There is enough out I can’t even begin to read in my lifetime.
But I am so thrilled with self published fantasy as well. I expect self publishing is going to continue to explode and I’m here for it!
I love seeing a sensible argument on this topic, and not just more clickbait. Bravo.
Thanks for this video!! Great points. At the risk of sounding condescending, I saw all those other videos recommended to me with the same clickbait title and just kind of rolled my eyes. I didn’t even bother watching them; to be honest, it’s hard for me to believe those creators actually believed in that argument and weren’t just doing it for clicks because it’s such a silly argument. (Sorry anyone reading this, but it is.) The points you, Matt, addressed are about what I expected the videos to say. Lots of misleading or false information. And a lot of it seems to boil down to the idea that economic issues are putting limitations on art, which has always been true, for all mediums. The issues also affect all trad publishing, not just fantasy. Epic fantasy seems incredibly popular from where I’m sitting, and it will continue to be so by all signs. As a woman who doesn’t like romantasy at all, I also agree that anything that brings in more readers, and more women readers, is a good thing!
🙋♀️ another woman who reads NO romantasy (although I do have *many* friends who do.) 🤷♀️
Great video. I completely agree on the point about debut authors not getting multi book deals. When I saw some other stuff using that as a reason for the decline, my first thought was what debut author gets a multi-book publishing deal out of the gate, regardless of genre? I would venture that is extremely rare to almost non-existent. The multi-deal comes after the first book’s success.
Thank you so much for this video. I loved how you backed your thoughts with examples. I also love that you show cased women authors in a positive light and how they are good for the fantasy sphere.
Thanks so much for this video. I only agree with your book reviews about half the time, but you have impeccable opinions on the fantasy genre as a whole. If the video you’re referencing is the one I think it is, I knew what I was in for as soon as they chose the comparison quote from Fourth Wing: not bad writing, just provocative. Kind of gave the game away on what the base issue was for that UA-camr.
Thank you especially for pointing out the obvious: that romantasy almost always IS epic fantasy. And thank you for consistently promoting women’s presence in the fantasy space.
A major lesson on critical thinking.
YES!! I grew up on the likes of LeGuin, Anthony, Burroughs, Norton, and Tolkien and they were fabulous but I'm kinda in love with The variety of sub genres out there now. It not dying but it is changing, growing and morphing into new and fantastic things 🙌🏼🤓
Maybe the elder gods are books? 🤪
What is dead may never die
😂😂😂
It’s nice to see a thoughtful opposing opinion to what has been a huge one sided argument!
Thank you for making this video. I was thinking a lot of the same points you made when i watched the video from library of a Viking. I did agree with some of each side
Matt, this was fantastic! You need to do more essay videos in this style!
Agree! 👏👏
You killed it 👌🏻
Love how easy to follow and logical your arguments were!
I only wonder when fantasy will hit the highs (or get near) the highs that Harry Potter did. When will we get a series where the world STOPS for every new release.
Id like to think Brandon Sanderson will get there some day. SL5 will have a lot of hype.
Good vid!
Really appreciate your thoughts and feelings on this subject as I feel much the same way you do! Glad someone has come out with this take.
Wonder if you made a poll question like : when did you get into epic fantasy books?
Id be curious to see how many people are brand new to the genre.
Also YES agreed with your final point! Great video!
I'm just glad this is a real video, not like the last one.
This is a great video and I agree with your points! Well done!
Well done. Thanks.
Elantris was a standalone but it was part of a 3 book publishing deal.
'the pie is getting larger' sounds very much like a quote youd use at work!
“Much of romantasy IS epic fantasy” and “There are tons of epic fantasy readers today who started out reading Twilight” Say it louder for the people in the back 👏🏻
Thank you for talking respectfully about other subgenres and how they’re equally good for the fantasy genre’s growth and for bringing in more women readers/authors. Also found your discussion on publishing great food for thought!
More video essays, loved this
Great points Matt. I would also say that the decline of fantasy TV is definitely not a sign of declining epic fantasy books. The rise of fantasy shows is a new thing and while it probably boosted the number of fantasy readers, it definitely hasn't made people stop reading books just because some of the recent efforts have sucked!
Yeah completely agreed!
Another fantastic video! thank you!
This is very much what I thought. Thank you.
Great video Matt. Succinct and straight to the point!
This was well done and very clear and to the point. Great job Matt!
Matt I can’t agree more. You are such a breath of fresh air to the community. Thank you for this.
Supply and demand is a force to be reckoned with. As long as there is a demand for epic fantasy, the supply will be met. The more demand, the more supply. There will always be a publisher interested in market niches.
I think fantasy in general is on the rise. Just 30-40 years ago, you had to write a LOTR style book to even be published. That’s changed.
I get their arguments however, I just don’t think their arguments mean epic fantasy is on a decline. Publishers want to make money and they will evaluate how much money they can make on a per page basis. So naturally, they will prefer less pages so they can make more money. But they are aware that more pages isn’t necessarily less profit. A massive book written to perfection can net more profit than a mediocre short book. It’s complicated.
Ah, it was so refreshing to hear the positive side of this debate and i definitely lean mostly towards your side than the, as you say, 'greatly exaggerated' side.
I think this video doesnt take into consideration that publishing houses have a finite amount of resources and money to work with in regards to deals and PR . Epic Fantasy isnt dying. But it is on life support in big publishing houses. That is just a fact. Its not what sells. I dare anyone here to look at your bookshelves. How many of your books were released recently vs 5-10+ years ago. The number keeps climbing if youre into epic fantasy.
Thank you so much, for putting some positivity out there Matt! There’s way too much draining negativity out there
As an author of Epic fantasy, thank you for sharing this, it was very encouraging.
A big problem with epic fantasy movie and show adaptations is that the creators (and often actors) can't get past their own egos and simply make quality, faithful products. They want it to be their own. But it's not theirs. The original authors wrote their stories the way they did for a reason, and it's the reason there are so many fans. When they change things to align with their worldview, and people don't like the changes, these narcissists attack the fans.
Well put! It does seem to me too that epic fantasy is alive and well.
When I saw the title of the video you mentioned I was surprised, because to me it never occurred that the genre was dying. If anything it seemed to flourish. And then I watched about 5 minutes of it and just stopped there because it didn't have much substance if any. Thank you for debunking it.
Thanks for saying something; I was a bit struck that everyone seemed to be reporting on this. Appreciated this style of video from you! Great work.
What I think is dying is traditional publishing. Much of it is chasing the cheap, BookTok modern romantasy.
No doubt about it. The new fantasy bookshelf is a bunch of clone books.
So basically, what Johan and Petrik said in their videos, lol
I would argue that traditional publishing is still pushing out amazing epic fantasy stories, and that the push for shorter books is a result of a short term paper shortage - not a long term shift.
Publishing has always followed trends and prioritised what will sell best, that isn't new. Nor has it ever prioritised only the best writing - there's plenty of forgettable titles from every decade since fantasy first took off. The current trend is romantasy, that doesn't mean publishing itself has radically changed - and romantasy as with any other genre will produce good books and poor ones.
Great video! One thing though - LOTR isn't a trilogy, it's one book.
I agree with ya Matt, that romantasy (a genre that I have no particular desire to delve into, myself) is nothing but GOOD for epic fantasy. To use a well-worn cliche: a rising tide floats all boats
9:00 - so true! My first fantasy series was ACOTAR by Sarah J Maas (read in 2019) when i was a teen, as i grew into an adult i found and fell in love with other fantasy series like Farseer trilogy or Stormlight.
You make a lot of great points indeed 👍
Thanks Matt! I like a lot of these creators making these video but they are driving me crazy!
Completely agree Mat, I think when people say “epic fantasy is saying” what they really mean is fantasy that they want to read.
Good, well-reasoned video. I agree with your observations 100%.
Yeah I never even understood the claim in the first place, that which fantasy is dying. I saw all those videos you’re talking about, and I just immediately ignored them. I appreciate your points, but I also felt like they weren’t even necessary for me. The amount of epic fantasy I still have on my tbr to read is all the proof I need to know that it’s not dying. I honestly don’t even know why people say it’s dying.
I don't care what anyone says, I'm still writing epic fantasy and I won't stop until the books are finished.
My only thing is Romantasy is more Romance than Fantasy and honestly those readers probably go to more Romance than Fantasy books after. Case in point my entire book club 😂.
I agree with you
Matt, are you going to review the Echo Saga at some point?
I’ve totally been able to get more women in my life into epic fantasy because of modern romantacy. I love the tie ins
Glad you made this brother. It is such a bait tactic claim. Epic Fantasy is here to stay. Personally, it is the absolute top genre with so many favorites.
Very Nice!
This is great. I had seen the videos about fantasy dying pop up over the past few months and have not watched one, so this was welcome.
I wish you had started out with a definition of what Epic fantasy is. Honestly, a bit of a rookie error. Many people confuse Epic and High fantasy. For instance, I wouldn't count Fourth Wing as Epic fantasy, but High fantasy/romantasy because the narrative is too attached to the characters' interpersonal struggles and the "world building" doesn't exist except as contrivance to exacerbate those dynamics. Epic fantasy tends to minimize interpersonal character engagement, (not eliminate!) by comparison to/pitting against the overwhelming conflict or expectations of the larger world/culture/society/theme. There's a sense of power and scale that comes from the world itself resisting change, that is what makes it Epic. It's why Third Person Omni. POVs suit Epic storytelling so well; characters small, narrative big. The sense that the characters will lose, or more that, we, the reader, can't imagine how they will win, is one of Epic fantasy's defining qualities.
There's never any doubt with the likes Fourth Wing or Maas' endless "death is only a suggestion" books. And for happy ending lovers, you do you, but don't call it Epic.
I think what some of the booktubers are saying is much of what is pawned off as Epic, really ... isn't. It's unsatisfying, lacking in scope. (Books with Brittany did a pretty thoughtful vid on the topic. She only talks about the OH NO! points briefly, instead choosing to reflect on her experience reading modern "Epic" vs classic "Epic" and why new doesn't scratch the itch).
It might be that modern writing conventions emphasizing spare prose, breakneck pacing, and bare bones narrative cultivated in YA storytelling are part of the problem. There's a fear of "boring" readers, that those plagued with the attention spans of a gnat (not saying it's true, but it is an oft bemoaned failing of the yoots) won't engage. Writers who cut their teeth in that genre/style carry it over to adult endeavours (Yarros, romance writer, is a perfect example of pacing being used to overcome WTF-ery. Worked great for romance readers but gave fantasy readers conniptions). Those attributes completely undermine a sense of scale, of the intractability of the past and the grinding inevitability of the future for the characters and their goals, and may be why *experienced* readers feel like Epic is dying.
I agree with Brittany, in that I do think there is a difference, but that's a necessity of evolution. The classics are still there, and Indie is crushing it. You're right in saying that pie is only getting bigger, it's just that some people might feel it's never quite as good as the one baked by gran.
I'm afraid I can't agree with your definition of epic fantasy. I'm with you on it being different from high fantasy, but your description feels like it would rule out books like The Will of the Many, which is from a single point of view and certainly doesn't minimise interpersonal relationships. I would also argue that Fourth Wing very much has a sense of scale with overwhelming conflict and the inability of the reader to see how the characters will win - especially once you get into the second book of the series.
@@RosLanta I haven't read Will of the Many so I can't comment on that, but by no definition, nor did I state that, Epic excludes single POVs; it's just well-served by 3rdPO. And Epics can have tremendous dynamics between characters; what differentiates Epic is that those characters, often not natural bedfellows, are brought into line by the threat or theme because it is more important than their individual interests or vendettas.
With Fourth Wing, yes, the opposite sides join forces against the Venon, but it never steps far enough away from the romance for the rebels and Venon to be other than background noise; nor should it--it's a Romantasy. All things in the book bend to that priority, which makes it anathematic to Epic Fantasy's very nature; ALL things being vulnerable to sacrifice for the fight; including love.
The "I can't see how the characters will win" doesn't come from well thought out, layered, yet overwhelming stakes; it comes from the fact that I don't believe the AUTHOR knows how the characters will win. Fourth Wing's political staging and world building around the conflict is so slap-dash and inconsistent an experienced fantasy reader can't take it seriously. There's a reason why the fantasy community at large ripped it to shreds; the author-ass-pull is strong with this one.
The solution to the Big Threat just being fetch quests for over-complicated McGuffins is not what creates an epic scale. In LotR the solution is quite simple: destroy the one ring in the fires of Mount Doom. What is daunting and instantly creates that scale is, at that point, the reader understands what that journey will entail because we've already been following Strider and the hobbits. Now the Fellowship has to literally WALK (small, remember) into the lair of an immortal enemy with near-limitless resources which will only grow more dense, terrifying and lethal the closer they get to their goal. THAT is Epic.
👏👏👏
Good take
Great video!!
Umm, akshuallyy...
LoTR is a standalone book, or at least was intended to be. However, it was chopped up into three because of, drumm roll please...
Paper shortages caused by major global events (WW2 rationing). Yep. It's nothing new.
Dang Matt, you said everything I was thinking too🤣.
great video
It's a ridiculous claim. Thank you for debunking it :)
What a hard most of the time is ,1, you see a good review on a book ,2,most of time you got order it online because the book store doesn’t have it …Walmart has gotten better with carrying books and the cost is better on the buyer ..I still love going to bookstores and seeing books I never heard of
All you say in this shiet is so true sir! God bless you and keep up the good work!
Epic fantasy evolves.
Asian inspired fantasy is majorly epic fantasy. Midlle eastern inspired fantasy too, african inspired fantasy too also.
The settings are more diverse. And it's a good things. We have made the turn of medfan. It's normal to go to next stage.
We will have more and more kind of epic fantasy with more kind of settings. It will go on to run and it will become more and more mad.
I’m curious where the original claim comes from?
Also there's a lot of high fantasy anime and manga that are killing it in the western market. I don't know if that counts, though.
i miss my wife
Very well said Matt. Here are a few of my reflections on some of your points:
1) Length of series: Much of this I think can be related to the packaging and marketing of an author’s work. Some readers may be intimidated by the sheer size of a series such as WoT or MBotF, and yet not by Realm of the Elderlings. Hobb’s collective work is about the same length, but it is broken up into smaller sets. First Law and Osten Ard have followed a similar structure (shorter series within a larger framework). It may be that publishers find the latter approach to be of greater appeal to readers in terms of accessibility. It does not seem that it would be too difficult for an author to tweak their writing to suit either approach/format, so the publisher (boss) wins the day.
2) The rise of Romantasy: I see this as a possible regression to the mean, whereby Grimdark (which dominated the 2010s-ish reading era) kept pushing boundaries toward increasingly bleak stories. Also, as you have alluded to, a big chunk of the fantasy market is young female readers, some of whom may be less than enthralled by, say, the 200 page ‘Final Battle’ scene that wraps up WoT (just to cite one example). Not that WoT is Grimdark, nor to improperly generalize female reading preferences, my point is that Romantasy (a term I’m not really comfortable with), typically offers more nuanced and deep character work than Grimdark. Not cheesy love triangles (looking at you Twilight), but real, complex human beings who evolve and live in my head, as opposed to countless RPG-esque cardboard cutouts that can be interchanged to suit a particular battle scene. Both types of stories can be, and often are, very satisfying depending on one’s preferences and mood. Romantasy may simply be course-correcting the extremes of 10-part gory slugfests is all I’m saying here.
3) Price of paper. Very interesting point here. I definitely agree that the pandemic saw a dramatic shift toward online purchasing, which I think is wonderful. We now have the entire world as an accessible book (and anything) store, so it makes sense that this would impact paper supply/cost. What is interesting to me is that we do not seem to be seeing a mass exodus away from physical books to ebooks. Personally I think I own around 2000 actual books and zero ebooks, but that’s just me… or is it? 🤔
On the ebook vs physical book discussion, we are definitely consistently moving towards ebooks. The global paper books market will encompass around 1.87 billion readers by 2027, while e-reader users are expected to reach 1.2 billion. I would predict that this trend continues moving in this direction over time.
The way you dismantled claim #2 was glorious! Cuz baybeeee the way some of these bloated fantasy novels couldve been done in ONE FIFTH of the word count. And yes im talking about some of yall faves, not newer stuff lol.
100% Agree.
6:45 what was the last one on that list?
And what's Immortals?
Osten Ard Saga. I meant to say "Glass Immortals".
@@MattsFantasyBookReviewsthanks!
EDIT: huh. I didn't know either of those authors had a second series going. From what I remember, you (and many others) didn't like the dragonbone chair. Do you like Osten Ard better?
@@joedoe7572 I haven't read Osten Ard, I was parroting what a ton of other people say about it.
Matt i know its totally not your thing but fuck would i ever love to smoke one with you and talk about the worlds we've dived into books wise! i dont have a mic yet but when i do ill join your disc. Your videos are always spot on and alot of the time your taking the words out of my mouth haha! thank you for recommending robin hobb, joe abercrombie and even Sanderson! much love brother
Bro, I am from norcal, take that as you will 😂
Also you don't need a mic for discord, it's just like a big chatroom. Join in!
Love this Matt. All these videos about Epic Fantasy dying just seem like click baity fear mongering BS. Thanks for keeping it positive!
I’m going to offer this as an idea. I think that people who believe epic fantasy is dying are people who aren’t regularly going into bookstores and actively browsing shelves. Most of what’s there is epic and it isn’t all Sanderson, Jordan, or Martin, or SJM. When we shop online or buy purely based on recommendations, then it’s easy to miss how much variety there is in a physical store, and this includes both YA and middle grade.
Also, thank you so much for speaking about Romantasy with such fairness. I love both Romantasy and more traditional epic fantasy. And pretty much all of the Romantasy (I low key hate this name😂) is epic in scale. There are quests and side quests and adventures and politics and travel - there’s just also a huge romance aspect. It’s so demeaning when people treat it as “lesser” literature. People saying it doesn’t count as fantasy just because they don’t like it is like me saying that domestic thrillers are crime fiction because I don’t like them. Saying it doesn’t make it true. I hate domestic thrillers. Others hate Romantasy. And both of those are fine. It doesn’t mean they aren’t valid sub genres. So thank you for giving a fair and nuanced take on this, even though it’s a genre you don’t particularly like yourself.
"I am angry. Angry about ELVES."
Yes!! I couldn't wait for this video! When I noticed many BookTubers talking about the decline of epic fantasy, I couldn't believe everyone was leaning that way. Your fantastic viewpoint is greatly appreciated. I completely agree.